House Of Commons
Tuesday, 5th March, 1901.
Several other Members took and subscribed the Oath.
King's Speech (Answer To Address)
The COMPTROLLER OF THE HOUSEHOLD reported His Majesty's Answer to the Address, as followeth:—
"I have received with great satisfaction the loyal and dutiful expression of your thanks for the Speech with which I opened the present Session of Parliament."
Private Bill Business
London Water (Purchase) Bill
Order for Second Heading read.
proposed to take the Second Reading on the 25th instant.
protested against a date being thus fixed upon without first extending to him, as an opponent, the courtesy of consulting him. He had not been approached in any way.
If the hon. Baronet objects, the matter stands over until tomorrow, and then he will have an opportunity of consulting the promoters.
said the Local Government Board, the London water companies, and other interests concerned were all agreed that 25th March would be the most convenient day,
said it was impossible for the promoters to know every opponent.
But I have given written notice of opposition.
The hon. Member for West Marylebone agreed with the members of the London County Council that 25th March would be a suitable day.
Very well; I will offer no objection then.
Debate adjourned accordingly.
Private Bills (Standing Order 62 Complied With)
MR. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, Standing Order No. 62 has been complied with, viz.:—
Burgess Hill Water Bill.
Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.
Fairford And Cirencester Railway Bill
Mond Gas Bill
Read a second time, and committed.
Petitions
Church Discipline
Petition from East Dulwich, for alteration of Law; to lie upon the Table.
Elementary Education (Higher Grade And Evening Continuation Schools)
Petitions for alteration of Law, from Derby; New Mills; Blackburn; Fenny Stratford; Shepley; Thornton in Craven; Steeton with Eastburn; Sutton in Keighley; Walmersley and Ramsbot-tom; Acton; and Dewsbury; to lie upon the Table.
Elementary Education (Scotch Code)
Petition from Leith, for alteration; to lie upon the Table,
Officers Of The Indian Staff Corps
Six hundred and fourteen Petitions from Officers of the Indian Staff Corps, for redress of grievances; to lie upon the Table.
Poor Law Officers' Superannuation Act, 1896
Petitions for alteration of Law, from Epsom; Ashton-in-Makerfield; and Acton; to lie upon the Table.
Sale Of Intoxicating Liquors On Sunday Bill
Petition from Little Heath, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
Sale Of Intoxicating Liquors To Children Bill
Petitions in favour, from Govan; Aberdeen; Windermere; Glasgow; Newcastle on-Tyne; and Kilmalcolm; to lie upon the Table.
Sale Of Intoxicating Liquors To Children (Scotland) Bill
Three Petitions from Gourock, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
Returns, Reports, Etc
Bankruptcy (Ireland)
Return [presented 6th December, 1900] to be printed. [No. 75.]
Post Office (Telegraph Money Orders)
Copy presented, of Additional Articles to the Convention of the 7th, 12th September, 1881, relative to the exchange of Money Orders between the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and the Kingdom of Sweden, dated 1st to 8th September, 1900 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Superannuation Act, 1887
Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated 21st February, 1901, granting a retired allowance to Mr. W. H. F. Crock-shank, a Second Division Clerk, Money Order Office, General Post Office, under the Act [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Navy (Dockyard Expense Accounts, 1899–1900)
Annual Accounts presented, for 1899–1900, of Shipbuilding and Dockyard Transactions, etc., with Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 76.]
Royal University Of Ireland
Copy presented, of Nineteenth Report of the Royal University of Ireland, being for the year 1900 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Papers Laid Upon The Table By The Clerk Of The House
1. Controverted Elections, Further Return.—Copyof Minutes of Evidence and Judgment in the Borough of Islington (West Division) Election Trial [ordered 22nd February; MR. Attorney General].
2. Bridlington Piers and Harbour.— Copy of Abstract of the General Annual Account for the year ending 26th July, 1900 [by Act].
Unfunded Debt
Return ordered, "of the amount of the Unfunded Debt on the 27th day of February, 1901, showing upon what terms and for what period it has been raised."—( Sir Edgar Vincent.)
Controverted Elections
West Islington Election Petition
MR. SPEAKER informed the House that he had received from the Judges appointed to try the several Election Petitions the following Certificate and Report relating to the West Division of the Borough of Islington: —
The Election Petition for the West Division of the Borough of Islington, 1900.
The Parliamentary Elections Act, 1868.
The Corrupt and Illegal Practices Acts, 1854–189,).
To the Right Honourable the Speaker of the House of Commons.
We, Sir William Rann Kennedy, Knight, and Sir Charles John Darling, Knight, Judges of His Majesty's High Court of Justice, and two of the judges on the rota for the time being for the trial of Election Petitions in England and Wales, Do hereby, in pursuance of the above written Acts, Certify that we duly held a Court at the Royal Courts of Justice, Strand, London, on the 14th, 15th, Kith, 17th, 18th, 2lst, and 30th days of January, 1901 (the last day the Court was occupied with the question of costs only), for the trial of the Election Petition for the West Division of the Borough of Islington, between Francis Hastings Medhurst, Petitioner, and Thomas Lough, M.P., and Charles Gasquet, Returning Officer, Respondents. And, in further pursuance of the said Acts,
we report that at the conclusion of the said trial we determined that the said Thomas Lough, the Member whose election was complained of, was duly elected and returned, and We Do Hereby Certify in writing such our determination to you. And we report that no charges wore made in the said petition of any corrupt or illegal practices within the meaning of the Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Acts.
Dated this 4th day of March, 1901.
W. R. Kennedy.
Charles Darling.
Questions
South Africa—Jameson Raid—Liability Of The British South Africa Company
I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether ho will undertake that the Government shall not formally give up the claim of the late South African Republic against the British South Africa Company in case of a proposal being made for the purchase by the Government of the undertaking of the Company.
I can only refer the hon. Member to my answer of yesterday—that this claim has been submitted to the law officers and that until we have received their opinion we can say nothing more.
I asked the light lion. Gentleman whether he would, on behalf of the Government, give an undertaking that this claim should not be formally abandoned. I have not understood that he has given mo an answer to that question.
I am not bound to answer the question as to what the Government might or might not do in a hypothetical case.
Expenditure Of The Colonies For Their Contingents
On behalf of the hon. Member for Dundee, I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can state approximately the expenditure incurred by the various colonies for pay of troops, equipment, or otherwise, in connection with the South African war.
I am not in a position to make such a statement at present. I could only obtain it by application to all the colonies, and as the accounts are not yet closed I think the hon. Member will agree with me that it would be premature to make the inquiry.
Press Prosecutions In Cape Colony
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will inform himself and state to the House by whom proceedings have been taken against Mr. Albert Cartwright, editor of the South African News, and what these proceedings ate; whether he is charged with reprinting in his paper treatment a, letter alleging that on a, particular February occasion Lord Kitchener had given instructions that General De Wet's force when surrounded should not be allowed to surrender; and, if so, whether he is aware that the letter making this charge had already appeared in the Freeman's Journal of 15th January, and the part of it conveying this charge in the London Times of 10th January.
I received a despatch yesterday from the Governor of the Cape Colony, from which it appears that proceedings were taken by the Attorney General of the Cape Colony on the charge of publishing a defamatory and seditious libel. The answer to the second and third questions is in the affirmative.
Is it proposed to take similar proceedings against the London Times and the Freeman's Journal?
That is not a question which should be addressed to me.
Precautions Against Plague At Cape Town
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can state the number of cases of plague that have occurred at Cape Town, according to his latest advices, distinguishing the number of Europeans and the number of natives attacked; whether at the time of the outbreak of the malady the authorities at Cape Town had an adequate supply of Haffkinine (prophylactu vaccine) and of Yersius curative serum for dealing with an outbreak; whether a supply of these materials has since been sent out; and whether he will lay upon the Table any reports received from Dr. Edington or Professor Simpson on the relation of the disease in rats to that in human beings.
My information is not complete, but, as stated in the telegraphic bulletins which have been supplied by the Cape Government and published, there was a total of twenty cases for the week ending 16th February and twenty-nine cases remaining under at that date; on 23rd there were twenty-one remaining under treatment. So far as I am aware there has been one European case. As to the second question, I have no information; the matter is one for the responsible Government of the Cape Colony. In reply to the third question, I have not seen these reports, which I understand are being prepared for the information of the Cape Government, and I am not aware that they have been published by that Government.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiry as to the second paragraph?
It is beyond my province to inquire into a matter for which the Cape Government is solely responsible, but if the hon. Gentleman will speak to me privately I will try to get the information he wants.
Concentration Camps—Treatment Of Boer Women
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he can now state whether the wives and children of Boers in the field are placed on precisely the same rations in the concentration camps as the other women and children, or whether a distinction is still maintained; and, in the latter case, whether he will give instructions that all shall be treated alike.
I have nothing to add to the reply I gave on Friday, the 1st instant, to the hon. Member for the Rushcliffe division of Nottinghamshire.* Lord Kitchener is taking all possible steps to secure the humane treatment of refugees.
Will the right hon. Gentleman obtain the information?
I do not think any more information can be obtained. I leave Lord Kitchener a free hand in the matter.
Mtlitary Courts Of Inquiry
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the cases of the officers who have been removed from the Army, or their resignations enforced, for failure in South Africa, have been the subject of courts of inquiry; if so, have all such officers been accorded the opportunity of attending and defending themselves.
Officers who have failed in the field, or otherwise, in South
Africa have been removed either on evidence given before courts of inquiry or on the recommendation of their superior officers. In such eases the general officer commanding satisfies himself that the officer's case is fully before him before he makes any recommendation to the War Office.* See page 180.
May I ask whether, when cases have been under consideration by courts of inquiry, the officer o concerned have been allowed to attend.
As I told the House the other day, when an officer is summoned before a court of inquiry the court is bound to hear him if he desires to be heard. Of course cases might come before courts of inquiry in which are mentioned the names of officers whose attendance may not always be available.
Is it possible for an officer to be condemned and removed as the result of a court of inquiry without having an opportunity of being heard?
An officer cannot be condemned by a court of inquiry, but circumstances might come before the authorities consequent upon an inquiry on which they might require to be satisfied. An officer's case is fully gone into before a decision is come to.
Has he an opportunity of defending himself?
Has it ever happened that an officer has been condemned without going before the court of inquiry?
There may be cases in which an officer's name is mentioned whose attendance it is not possible to ensure.
What hon. Members desire to be assured upon is whether an officer can suffer by the finding of a court of inquiry without he himself having been heard.
[No answer was given.]
Negotiations With General Botha
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he has any information to the effect that General Botha has intimated to Lord Kitchener his readiness to surrender on certain specified terms; and, if so, whether there is any prospect of a successful issue of the negotiations.
I have no statement to make on this subject.
British Surrenders—Courts-Martial
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if ho can state what cases of surrender of troops in South Africa have been tried by courts-martial, and when he proposes to make the findings and sentences public.
The question of the time and manner of the publication of the courts-martial referred to is under consideration.
Civil Laws In The Transvaal
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he can state what body of laws is being enforced in the civil affairs of the Transvaal.
The laws now being enforced in the Transvaal are the statute laws of the Transvaal, subject to such alterations as the present abnormal state of the country renders necessary,
Treatment Of Coloured Persons In The Transvaal
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, by the Transvaal Pass Law, the rigid enforcement of which was asked for by the Rand Chamber of Mines, lashes at discretion may be inflicted for every second violation of its minute regulations, and whether by a clause introduced into the latest Transvaal Gold Law by the second Volksraad, every coloured workman who is found to be negligent may be punished by lashes not exceeding twenty-five; while coloured includes every Indian or African British subject; and if the attention of the Governor of the Transvaal will be called to such provisions, with a view to the better treatment of coloured persons.
The penalties referred to in the question are prescribed by the Pass Laws of 1895 and 1890, and by the Gold Laws for many years past. The definition of "coloured" undoubtedly includes British Indian and African coloured subjects. Sir Alfred Milner is already alive to the need for considering the revision of such legislation, and I will call his attention to the special points referred to in the right hon. Member's question.
Comforts For Troops At The Front
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the approach of colder weather in South Africa, the Government will give the same facilities as they did last year for the transmission of extra comforts for men on service; and whether any information is available at the War Office which would indicate the sort of extras which would be most acceptable, and the localities in which they are most needed.
The same facilities for the transmission of extra comforts will be granted as last year. I will give my hon. friend a copy of the Departmental Memorandum detailing suitable articles for the troops in South Africa. Lord Kitchener, in reply to a telegram which I addressed to him on the subject, says that such extra comforts will be much appreciated, but I have no guidance as to localities.
Is it not the fact that many cases of comforts sent last Christmas never reached the unfortunate soldiers?
Yes; there was a great congestion of traffic on the railway.
Return Of Troops
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, with reference to the Return of Military Forces in South Africa 1899–1901, where it appears that the number of officers who left South Africa for England, not invalids, was 1,214, and the number of men and noncommissioned officers and men was 11,109, a proportion of 1 to 9, whereas the proportion to the strength of the Regular forces in South Africa on 1st February, 1901, under the heads of the Return, is about 1 to 32, whether he will state the reason of this disproportion of officers returning, not invalids, allowance being made for the staff officers who have returned with their generals; and whether he could state the number of this latter and of the staffs accompanying them.
The preparation of this Return would entail very considerable labour, which I am not prepared to throw upon the department concerned.
Indian Reliefs
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can state what steps, if any, are being taken with reference to the reliefs for India upon the close of the war in South Africa, and also whether anything will lie done to compensate the 15,000 men now serving in India beyond the term of their engagement.
Men serving in India who are due for transfer to the Reserve will be replaced by men having four years unexpired colour service from South Africa and home. It is not proposed to compensate soldiers retained with the colours under the Royal Proclamation of 7th October, such retention being part of the liability which they accepted in their engagement.
Commander-In-Chief In Ireland—Hrh The Duke Of Connaught
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he can give the date of the appointment of H.R.H. the Duke of Connaught to the position of Commander-in-Chief of the Army in Ireland, and how many days since his appointment has His Royal Highness been at his post.
His Royal Highness was appointed to the command in Ireland on the 9th January, 1900, and has exercised the command since that date. I am not aware on how many days His Royal Highness has been at his office in Dublin, but in this, as in the commands he has previously held, His Royal Highness has discharged his duties to the complete satisfaction of the Commander-in-Chief.
Cannot the right hon. Gentleman give the House the information I asked for as to the number of days he has been at his post in Ireland?
I cannot give the number of days, nor do I intend to ask for it.
Ts the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Commander-in-Chief in question is never in Ireland?
Order, order!
Soldiers' Widows' Pensions
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the sum of £56,000, taken on the War Office Estimates and stated in the memorandum of the Secretary of State for War to be to cover the grant of pensions from 1st April next to the widows and children of non-commissioned officers and men who have died as the result of active operations, is the whole sum contemplated to be granted for that purpose: and whether as stated in Return [Cd. 462] 1901, up to 1st February, 1901, 12,354 have actually been killed or died, and that 28,630 others have been wounded or are still in hospital, and if this sum of £56,000 is to provide for all the widows and orphans thus created as well as any additions that may yet be made to the list before the war is over.
The sum referred to was taken as the charge likely to accrue during the year for pensions to widows and children of non-commissioned officers and men who have died. My hon. friend will realise that only a proportion of the army is married and the number of those wounded docs not affect the charge, as they are otherwise provided for.
Birmingham Policemen Serving In South Africa Rate Of Pay
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the fact that members of the Birmingham Police Force were engaged to go to the front in Africa at 3s. per day, that when they got to the front they were paid 5s. per day, that the Treasury on finding this out ordered the men home, but on their return to this country engaged them to return at 3s. 6d. per day; and whether the cost of transport per man is about £40; and, if so, can he say what was saved by bringing the men home in order to secure a reduction in their pay.
Nothing-whatever is known at the War Office or the Treasury of the circumstances named by the hon. Member.
Army Meat And Forage Contracts—Proposed Irish Depot
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he has received resolutions direct, and copies of resolutions passed by local authorities in various parts of Ireland, complaining of the importation of foreign meat and forage into a meat-producing and agricultural country; whether the War Office has been asked to provide a depot for the reception of tenders from Irish manufacturers; and whether it is intended to inquire into those matters, and provide a remedy.
Various resolutions from Ireland in connection with the supply of foreign meat and forage to the troops there have been received at the War Office. As I have already explained to the House, the whole question of the supply of meat to the troops in the United Kingdom is being thoroughly considered.
Will the War Office consider the advisability of inserting a clause in future tender forms prohibiting contractors from supplying foreign meat?
[No answer was given.]
Yeomanry Exercise At Hertford
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the field exercises on Saturday of the Yeomanry and Volunteers near Hertford; whether such exercises are intended as instructional manœuvres, and as such are in any way supervised by the War Office, or any regular military authority; and, whether any reports are made to the War Office on the tactics adopted by the Volunteer commanding officers; and, if so, whether he will communicate such reports to Parliament.
Exorcises such as those referred to by the hon. Member are not supervised by the War Office and reports concerning them are not received at headquarters. Nor do I think that such centralisation would be desirable, but the whole question of Volunteer and Yeomanry field training is under the Commander-in-Chief's consideration.
Shropshire Light Infantry—Tipperary Riots
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can give an undertaking that the persons suffering losses from the house wreckings and burglaries committed by privates of the Shropshire Light Infantry, in Tipperary, will be compensated by the Army Department and thus save the local ratepayers from being mulcted for those acts.
Any offences by soldiers against life or property are dealt with by the civil power, and it is not proposed to alter the usual procedure.
Will the Government consider the advisability of sending this regiment out to South Africa, where looting is allowed?
Are Militiamen sent to Ireland to be allowed the same latitude as their fellows in South Africa?
Committee On Water-Tube Boilers
I bug to ask the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether the Committee on Water-tube Boilers is about to issue an interim Report; and, if so, when it will be presented to Parliament.
The Committee have made an interim Report which it is proposed to present to Parliament shortly.
Hms "Britannia"—Outbreak Of Pneumonia
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether a second term cadet died at one of the shore establishments of the "Britannia" on the 26th ultimo from complications following upon pneumonia; whether this is the second cadet who has died within eight days from the same cause; whether others are ill; and, if so, how many; whether the hospital is full whether one of the instructors has died from a similar complaint; and whether he can say what is the cause of so much pulmonary disease upon the "Britannia."
May I also ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether one of the naval instructors on board the "Britannia" has recently died, and two cadets are seriously ill; whether the remainder of the cadets have been granted three weeks leave; and, what steps the Admiralty are taking to secure for the future the health of officers and cadets.
It is true that two cadets and one of the instructors of the "Britannia" have recently died from complications following upon pneumonia, and on Sunday last there were sixteen cadets ill, two seriously. The cause of the large amount of pulmonary disease is the prevailing epidemic of influenza of a severe type. The hospital is by no means full. The cadets have been granted three weeks leave, and the ship will be thoroughly purified and disinfected while the cadets are away.
Has the hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to a statement in the press that the "Britannia" is thoroughly rotten and unfit for the cadets?
We are building an establishment on shore to replace the "Britannia" as quickly as possible.
Deptford Victualling Yard
I beg to ask the Civil Lord of the Admiralty if he will state the number of labourers employed in the Deptford Victualling Yard, and the rates of wages paid, distinguishing the number of men employed at each separate rate.
The total number of labourers employed in the Deptford Victualling Yard is 307, with rates of pay ranging from 19s. to 30s. a week. I shall be happy to hand the detailed particulars to the hon. Member if he will speak to mo after Questions.
How many are still employed at 19s.?
Nine.
The Inquiry As To Naval Works At Gibraltar
On behalf of the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Edmund Robertson), I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if it is intended to communicate to the House the results, whether separate or collective, of the proposed inquiries into questions connected with the naval works at Gibraltar.
I understand that no Report is to be presented, but if any changes are decided on they will be explained on the Estimate.
Indian Staff Corps
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, whether any provision has been made for assisting officers of the Indian Staff Corps who are engaged in the operations in China to meet the extra expenses entailed upon them by having to organise messes at Tientsin and elsewhere, and provide warm clothing for themselves and their servants, and by the higher price of all stores as compared with India; and whether he will represent to the War Office the similarity of the case of these officers with that of their comrades who were engaged in the Chitral and Tirah campaigns and received a special field allowance of 5s. per diem.
There was no special field allowance of 5s. a day to Staff Corps officers engaged in the Tirah and Chitral campaigns. As regards China, Staff Corps officers receive Indian rates of pay and allowances in that country, which compare favourably with the English rates paid to British units in the expedition. But General Gaselee was informed on the 10th of January in reply to a question received from him a few days earlier, that if he would submit proposals for reasonable lodging, fuel, and lighting allowances, they would be transmitted to the War Office for consideration.
Cooper's Hill College
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if he can say how long the Board of Visitors took to consider and adopt Colonel Ottley's suggestions to remodel the studies and dismiss the professors of Cooper's Hill College; and what expert advice did they receive and consider before reporting.
Colonel Ottley's suggestions for the rearrangement of the course of study at Cooper's Hill are dated 13th June, 1900, and the Report of the Board upon them is dated the 24th of the same month. The Visitors who signed the Report are, with scarcely an exception, experts of the highest authority upon the technical questions submitted to them, and they are selected in order that they may advise as experts.
Were the conclusions come to by the Committee at a single sitting?
The Committee had the memoranda some time before them. The Report was a long and exhaustive one, but I cannot say whether its consideration only occupied one sitting.
Was not the meeting to consider the Report called for the 24th, and did not the Committee report the same day?
[No reply was given.]
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if he can state how many visits the Board of Visitors made to Cooper's Hill College during 1900.
Several visits were paid to Cooper's Hill in 1900 by members of the Board, but I cannot give the exact number.
Is not a visitors' book kept?
I cannot say.
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he can inform the House who requested Colonel Ottley to prepare a new curriculum of studies and a new time-table for Cooper's Hill College; and what special qualifications did he have for this work.
Colonel Ottley was informed when he became President that the existing system of instruction was not considered to be satisfactory and required remodelling. Colonel Ottley has an unbroken experience of twenty-five years service in India in almost every department of civil engineering, and the special knowledge he thus obtained of the training and capacity of the young engineers working under him from Cooper's Hill pre-eminently qualified him to advise as to the special technical training required for the Public Works Department in India.
Am I to understand that the code of regulations, which provides that the President shall be assisted by the teachers in regulating the course of studies, is not carried out by the present President?
I understand that Colonel Ottley has been in frequent communication with the teachers.
International Fisheries Conference
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether His Majesty's Government has the intention of taking any steps towards the reconvention of the International Fisheries j Conference of Stockholm.
It is not at present proposed that the conference should reassemble. As the House was informed on the 22nd ultimo in reply to the hon. Member for South Islington, His Majesty's Government had inquired when the Provisional Committee consisting of experts, the meeting of whom had been postponed, would be called together. His Majesty's Government have since been informed that the Provisional Committee will meet at some date in May not yet fixed.
Chinese Tariffs
I beg-to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any Report was drawn up by the Commission appointed in 1899 by the Chinese Government to consider the question of the abolition of likin and the substitution of a revised tariff; and whether His Majesty's Government have been furnished with a copy of such Report; and, if so, whether they intend to publish its contents.
In December, 1899, Her Majesty's Minister reported that an Imperial Decree had been issued appointing two Chinese Commissioners to consider the question of tariff revision in consultation with Sir R. Hart. The decree, however, contained no reference to the abolition of likin. We have not heard that the Commission have made any report.
Irish Taxation
I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state the ratio of direct and indirect taxation in Great Britain and Ireland respectively.
I would refer the hon. Member to House of Commons Paper 336 of 1900 (Revenue and Expenditure — England, Scotland, and Ire land), which contains full particulars of the amounts and proportions of the various heads of revenue. I should not like to bind myself to any statement of the precise ratio between direct and indirect taxation in the two countries respectively, because, as I have often explained, the division between them of the proceeds of indirect taxation cannot be considered statistically accurate.
But is it not the fact that the ratio of indirect taxation in Ireland is much higher than it is in Great Britain?
That I have no doubt of.
Will the right hon. Gentleman bear that fact in mind in preparing his Budget?
I think hon. Members take very good care that we shall not forget it.
Police Pension Statistics
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can state (1) the total amount of the income of the police pension funds in England and Wales (excluding the metropolis) for the financial year] 1898–9; (2) how much of this was derived from stoppages of pay; (3) how much from Exchequer contribution; (4) and how much from other sources; and (5) what was the total expenditure for the same year; and (6) what was the deficiency.
The figures respectively: -'(1) £363,602 Is. 4d. £59,777 18s. 3d.; (3) £160,944 14s. £141,279 9s. Id.; (5) £370,217 12s. (6) £7,615 l1s. 3d.
House Painters And Lead Poisoning
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the death of Richard Edwards, a house painter, of 33, Pinnox Street, Tunstall, caused, as a coroner's jury found, by lead poisoning: and whether he proposes to introduce any legislation for the protection of house painters from lead poisoning.
I have inquired into the case and find that it does not come within any Acts which I have to administer; and I do not see my way to proposing any such legislation as is suggested.
London School Board— Rehousing Policy
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the fact that the London School Board has acquired houses occupied by persons of the working class in Gopsall Street, New North Road, and has thereby displaced 350 persons of the poorer labouring class; and whether any provision has been made, or is proposed to lie made, for the rehousing of the persons displaced.
The displacement to which I understand my hon. friend refers took place several years ago. It is included amongst the displacements in respect of winch my predecessor placed upon the School Board an obligation to rehouse by a special clause which he secured in a Provisional Order Confirmation Bill in 1899. The question of the amount of accommodation to be provided is the subject of correspondence between my Department and the School Board. I may add that the number of persons mentioned by my hon. friend does not tally with the best estimates at my disposal.
Railway Rates For Agricultural Produce
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that one ton of potatoes delivered in London (Borough) Market from Germany costs 6s., whilst one ton of potatoes from Bexley, Kent, costs from 9s. to 10s.; whether he will inquire into this preferential treatment to foreign importers; and whether the same ratio is preserved in through rates for foreign goods imported into Ireland.
No, Sir; I doubt much the accuracy of the figures quoted by the hon. Member. I should be surprised if the cost of a ton of potatoes were lower than 70s. a ton in the London market whatever their origin. As regards railway rates I have intimated before that the Board of Trade would be happy to deal with any specific complaint if it were laid before them in accordance with Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1888, but it is not the business of the Department to make any general inquiry.
Carriage Of Agricultural Produce To London By Road
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that a movement is being promoted to have agricultural produce carried by road to London on account of the railway rates now imposed; and whether he will inquire into this matter.
I have not heard of any new proposal of this kind. I should have thought it was common knowledge that large quantities of agricultural produce are daily brought into London by road. The practice appears to me to involve a healthy form of competition with railways and no inquiry is necessary.
Breaches Of The Company Law
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the cases in which directors of public companies have failed to hold an annual meeting as provided by the articles of association of their companies; whether he is aware that apparently no penalty attaches to the omission, and the only method left to an aggrieved shareholder is an action at law; and whether he will take some action to prevent these breaches of the law.
I think my hon. friend correctly states the position of the law and I am not at present prepared to amend it. I should like to say, however, that the Board of Trade put some indirect pressure upon companies by proceeding under Section 27 of the Companies Act, 1862, to enforce compliance with the law as to filing Returns.
London County Council Water Bill
I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether the Government intend to persist in their opposition to the Water Bill of the London County Council.
I see no reason to alter the views which I have already expressed with regard to this matter.
Milk Inspection
I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board that, as there is a want of uniformity in the existing regulations now in force respecting the sale of milk, he will, on behalf of the Government, bring in as soon as possible a general Bill giving equal powers to all local authorities, obliging them to examine the milk sold within their respective areas, and to take uniform measures to ensure its purity.
I cannot give any pledge on this subject at the present time, but the matter is receiving my consideration.
Secondary Education
I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education if he will state what practical steps have been taken since August, 1899, under the Board of Education Act, to organise the inspection of secondary schools or to set on foot a register of teachers under Section I (a): and has the recent decision in Regina Cockerton had any effect on the action of the Board of Education in respect of re straining the teaching of science in higher grade schools; and, if so, of what kind.
The inspection of secondary schools can only take place under the Act on their application: seven have been inspected, eighteen others have been arranged for, and thirty-eight applications are still under consideration. The duty of framing regulations for registration of teachers is entrusted by the Vet to the Consultative Committee, who, I understand, have been continuously engaged since their appointment in the performance of this task. The answer to the third question is in the negative.
How often does the Consultative Committee meet?
Pretty frequently; sometimes twice a week. I cannot say definitely without notice.
Irish Geological Survey
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether, in view of the fact that £9,000 per annum is granted for the support of the geological survey of England and Wales, and that the respective areas are England and Wales thirty-seven million acres, and Ireland twenty million acres, and seeing that instead of the £5,000 which Ireland should receive every year the average allowance for the past ten years has been under £2,500, this sum will be at once increased and supplemented by the balance due.
No; as the Government survey in Ireland has in the main been completed, whereas in England and Wales it has not, the sum required for England and Wales is necessarily larger than that required for Ireland.
Palace Yard—Lighting Arrange Ments
I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether he can improve the system of lighting the inside of Palace Yard in the same manner as that adopted on the, frontages to Parliament Square and Bridge Street — namely, incandescent lamps.
I should be glad to improve the lighting of Palace Yard, but the introduction of the incandescent system would involve certain alterations, for the cost of which there is no provision in the Estimates. I regret, therefore, that the matter must be postponed.
Ventilation Of The Division Lobbies
I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether lie can see his way to placing fan ventilators driven by electricity in the Division lobbies, especially in the portions of them between the Division Clerks' desks and the exits.
I propose to fix two fans as suggested in the Division lobbies, and, if possible, I will carry out the work during the Easter recess.
Members' Accommodation
I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works what increased accommodation has been given to the general body of the Members of this House out of the additional premises made over to the use of this House, and whether some improvement can be made in the Leading, Tea, and Smoking Rooms.
As I stated in answer to a similar inquiry during the discussion on the Supplementary Estimates on Thursday last, the allocation of the vacant rooms on the Terrace front will be referred to a Select Committee, and I will place the reference on the Paper to-night.
Postal Good Conduct Stripes—Claim Of Linesmen
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, will lie explain on what grounds un established postmen with good characters receive a merit stripe carrying with it an increase of pay, whereas unestablished linesmen and mechanics are refused a similar privilege.
The award of good conduct stripes to un established postmen who do a full day's work was made on the recommendation of the Tweedmouth Committee. The Committee made no such recommendation in regard to un established linesmen and mechanics; but the Postmaster General has directed an inquiry to be made into the question.
Welsh Telegraphic Addresses
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether there are any Post Office Regulations forbidding the use of a Welsh word as a registered telegraphic address; and, if so, will he state the reasons for such rules.
There is no regulation directed specially against the Welsh language; but in view of certain practical difficulties the Department follows the regulations of the International Convention relating to code which prescribe words of ten letters drawn from certain languages; and these languages do not include Welsh. As there is no context in abbreviated addresses to help the telegraphists in their transmission it is extremely desirable that the words selected for such addresses should be words which can be telegraphed everywhere without difficulty; but, if the hon. Member knows of any case where inconvenience has been caused by the rejection of a Welsh word, the Postmaster General will be glad to consider whether the word can be accepted for registration without undue risk of error or difficulty in the transmission of the telegrams.
Postmen And The Census
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether, seeing that it has been the practice on the occasion of the taking of the census in the past to allow postmen and other postal officials to act as enumerators, on the understanding that their postal duties are not neglected, the same privilege will be accorded at the forthcoming census.
It is the fact that persons in the employment of the Post Office have in past years been allowed to act as enumerators for the census. Such duties are, however, now considered to be incompatible with the ordinary duties of an established servant of the Post Office, and no such established servant can be allowed to act as an enumerator. Persons not established and not performing a full day's duty for the Post Office may act as enumerators, provided that their ordinary work is not interfered with.
Relatives On Postal Staffs
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, if he will state the practice of the Department in regard to near relatives holding appointments on the same staff; and whether it is customary for exceptions to be made; and, if so, for what reason.
The Department regards it as unsatisfactory that an officer should have to supervise members of his family, and although exceptions have sometimes to be permitted it is not customary to make them. When such an exception is made it would be owing to the absence of any other suitable person in the office.
Irish Workhouse Dietary
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the change made in the diet of the inmates of workhouses in Ireland last year, while imposing 20 to 30 per cent, of an increase in the cost of keeping of each inmate, is not satisfactory to boards of guardians or the inmates; and whether he will leave this question for settlement by the guardians and the medical officer of the workhouse, and not have the fixed rule laid down by the Local Government Board some time since, and which medical officers were directed privately by the Board to have carried out.
Recent changes in the diet of inmates of workhouses, made in accordance with the suggestions of the Local Government Board, have not imposed an increase of 30 per cent, in the cost of maintenance. Since the issue of the Board's circular, the cost of maintenance in Irish workhouses has increased from 3s. 2d. per head to 3s. 2¾d. The Board has not laid down any fixed rule to govern the dietary of workhouse inmates beyond the minimum scale prescribed by the Workhouse Rules of 1849. Less than this scale could not lie allowed, because it would be insufficient to maintain life. The circular of the 13th November, 1899, to which presumably the hon. Member refers, suggested a revision of the existing dietaries on more varied lines, so far as children are concerned. The workhouse medical officers were not directed privately to have the suggestions carried out. The guardians of many unions have shown unwillingness to incur increased expenditure in this matter, but if the improved dietary has not been satisfactory to the inmates in any instances, the Board believes it must be upon the ground that the improvement has not been sufficient.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Visiting Committee of the Carrickmacross Workhouse has intimated that it is not satisfied with the new dietary, which is costing the rates of the union several hundred pounds additional?
Enniscorthy Asylum Loan
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can say what is the reason for the delay of the Treasury in advancing the money for the loan to the County Wexford County Council in respect of the works the council had to carry out at Enniscorthy Asylum, and how soon will the balance of the loan be paid to the council, so as to enable them to pay their contractor the sum of money due to him.
On the 14th December last the Wexford County Council applied to the Board of Works for a loan of £1,500 in respect of works at the District Asylum, and on the 20th December the Board asked the Secretary to the Council to furnish certain information on a printed form, a copy of which was enclosed. This information, without which a loan cannot be made, has not yet been supplied to the Board; any delay, therefore, cannot, be fairly attributed either to the Hoard of Works or to the Treasury.
Salaries Of Local Government Officials
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the criticisms passed by the Court of Appeal in Ireland on the action of the Local Government Board towards the County Council of Wexford in fixing the salaries of certain existing local officers transferred to the new local authorities created by the Local Government (Ireland) Act, he will, as President of the Local Government Board for Ireland, consider the expediency, before any fixing of salaries by the Local Government Board takes place in future, of holding-local inquiries at which the officers and the councils concerned may be heard in open court.
The Board will be happy to hold inquiries in such cases if the councils so desire it; but it is obligatory on the Board under the Local Government Act to charge the entire cost of these inquiries to the county councils. The Board propose before making fresh orders to invite the councils and officers to give their views in writing upon each case, but they will at the same time intimate to the councils that if they would prefer to submit their views at a local inquiry, an inquiry will accordingly be held.
It having been decided that the Local Government Board was wrong in this matter, will the authorities not enable the local boards to have inquiries without expense?
I have explained what the law is.
Land Loans In County Wexford
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that advances under the Land Purchase Acts, 1891–6, in the county of Wexford are suspended owing to the number of holdings purchased in that county; whether this suspension applies to agreements already sanctioned; to cases where the agreements have been lodged but have not yet been sanctioned; and to eases where two or three holdings on estates, where the remainder of the holdings have been sold, remaid unsold; and can he state what steps the Government intend to take to enable the occupiers in county Wexford to purchase their holdings.
Advances under the Land Purchase Acts have been suspended in county Wexford pending the result of inquiries now being made to ascertain whether the limit of advances of guaranteed land stock fixed by the Act of 1891 has been reached in that county. The suspension applies to each class of the cases mentioned in the second paragraph. Pending the result of these inquiries, I am not in a position to make, any statement of policy.
Irish National Education Board
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if He can furnish a Return showing how the members of the present National Education Hoard in Ireland are appointed, and the age, profession, and date of appointment of the different members.
The Commissioners of National Education are appointed by the Lord Lieutenant pursuant to the Royal Charter of incorporation. A list of the names of the Commissioners with the dates of their appointments will be found in the last Annual Report of the Board. Their professions and attainments are well known. There are no further materials which could be included in a. Return, and I am unable therefore to consent it.
Cannot the wishes of the Irish people be consulted in making appointments to this important post?
[No answer was returned.]
Irish Sealed Local Government Orders
I beg-to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state what steps the Local Government Board are going to take to rectify the errors they have made in issuing sealed orders and circulars in excess of their authority: and will they allow the county councils which they illegally compelled to increase the salaries of their officials to reconsider these salaries.
The Local Government Board has not issued orders in excess of its authority. Its authority is very clearly defined in Section 115 (Subsection 18) of the Local Government Act. The Court of Appeal decided that the preliminary steps taken by the Board to determine the amount in each case were informal, and quashed the orders on that ground. The authority of the Board to determine the increases was not mentioned by the Court. The Board, need I say, is prepared to acquiesce in the decision of the Court of Appeal in respect of every other case in which the orders are brought up on a writ of certiorari. It will make new orders in all such cases, and base its decision in each case upon the lines indicated by the Court of Appeal.
Will the county councils have liberty to reconsider?
It is not possible to begin de novo in cases where an agreement has been arrived at.
May I point out—
Order, order! The hon. Member must not comment on the answer.
I beg to give notice that I will put another question down; yes, and I will ask it, too.
Irish Local Government Auditors
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the auditors appointed by the Local Government Board for Ireland are in receipt of an annual salary or other remuneration apart from what they receive from the District Asylum Committees; and, if so, what is the average amount paid to each per year.
The auditors are not in receipt of any salary or remuneration from the District Asylum Committees, or from any other local bodies. Their salaries are paid direct from the Local Government Board Vote, and the Board is required to assess such fees for the audit of the accounts of local bodies as will partly recoup the Treasury for the amount of their salaries, expenses, and superammuations. The present scale of salary is from £400 to £700 per annum by quinquennial increments of £100, An additional annual allowance of £100 is granted to auditors engaged on county audits.
Asylum Committees' Accounts Audits
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Asylum Committees throughout Ireland have been compelled by sealed order of t lie Local Government Board within the past year to pay a sum of £30 for the auditing of the accounts of these bodies, instead of £24 10s, paid annually up to that time; and whether he will take any steps to free the taxpayers from t his charge.
Ii is not a fact that the charge for auditing asylum accounts is now, in every case, £30, or that such charge was formerly £24 10s. in every case. The Board is now obliged to audit these accounts half yearly instead of yearly as formerly, and is under a statutory obligation to recover the cost of such audit. The fees assessed are such as will enable the Hoard to recoup the Treasury for the additional expense involved by two audits in each year.
Land Purchase In County Galway
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the owner of the town-land of Madusflynn, parish of Cahirlustraun, barony of Clare, Galway, has entered into negotiations with some of his tenants! to sell them their holdings; that these small tenants are willing to buy provided the owner also sells them a grass farm now held by a non resident grazier who takes in grazing stock, and that they are willing to pay as much as the grazier; whether, in these circumstances, the Land Commission will insist, before advancing money for the purchase of the grass farm, that the whole or part of the grass farm should be divided among the small tenants; and whether, in the many similar cases which exist in Galway and Mayo, some effort will be made in this direction.
Agreements between the Rev. Mr. Gabbett and his tenants for the purchase by them of their holdings, which comprise the entire town-land mentioned, have been received in the Irish Land Commission, and advances have been provisionally sanctioned in all the eases. The Commissioners have no knowledge of the matters referred to in the first part of the question. In answer to the second and third paragraphs, the Commissioners can only consider applications for advances under the Land Purchase Acts on the joint application of landlords and tenants.
Irish Teachers' Result Fees
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland will he explain why Irish teachers, whose schools were examined in October last, have not yet been paid the equivalent for results fees.
If the names are supplied of the schools examined in October to which the equivalent for results fees has not yet been paid, inquiry will be made and an explanation given.
Sheep Worrying By Dogs In Ireland
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether there has come under notice of the Irish Executive the widespread losses sustained by sheep owners from the ravages of dogs; and whether the Government will consider the advisability of introducing legislation enabling owners of sheep in Ireland lo receive compensation for such losses out of the Irish dog tax fund.
The attention of Government has been directed to the losses sustained by sheep owners in consequence of the worrying of their stock by dogs. The police have instructions to render every assistance in tracing the owners of dogs causing such injuries. With regard to the suggestion in the last paragraph, the hon. Member does not appear to be aware that the proceeds of the dog licence duty in Ireland, after the deduction of expenses, are paid over to the local authorities in counties and boroughs in aid of local rates. I do not think these authorities would be willing to apply the money so received by them to the payment of compensation to sheep owners. The manner in which the dog licence duty is distributed in Ireland will be found set forth in Parliamentary Paper No. 212 of last year.
Will the right hon. Gentleman instruct the police to look after this matter, in view of the enormous loss sustained by sheep owners?
The Royal Irish Constabulary have been instructed to give every assistance in tracing the owners of dogs.
Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer increase the dog licence duty?
[No answer was given.]
Ulster Winter Assizes
I beg to ask Mr. Attorney General for Ireland if he can explain why the original promise to hold the Ulster winter assizes every fourth year has not been fulfilled; and whether he can now undertake that the winter assizes will be held in Armagh every fourth year.
I am not aware that the promise mentioned was ever made. Having regard to the fact that the selection of the venue for the winter | assizes must depend each year on a number of changing circumstances, I do not think it should be made, and I am, therefore, unable to make it on this occasion.
Irish Land Finance
I beg to ask MR. Attorney General for Ireland whether, in the 123rd Table of the Appendices to the Report of the Irish Land Commission, the following figures are correct, namely: Amount of Guaranteed Land Stock issued, £269,334; price fixed by Land Judge £285,322; amount paid in cash by the tenant, £15,995; and, if correct, what is the explanation as to the amount paid in cash by the purchasing tenants over and above the amount certified by the Land Commission.
The explanation asked for is as follows: In sonic instances the Land Commission is unable to advance the entire price fixed by thorn because it would exceed the limit of £3,000; or because there is timber or bog on the holding which, though valuable, might be removed by the purchaser and would not therefore remain as a security to the State; or because the buildings, though valuable, are unsuitable to the holding as an agricultural holding: or because, in order to prevent the hearing by the Land Judge on the report being adjourned till the receiver had collected all arrears for rents due, a sum is added to the price in respect of those arrears.
Irish Franciscan Mss
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he can state when the manuscripts of the Irish Franciscans, now being published by the Historical Manuscripts Commission, will be printed and circulated.
The greater and most important part of the Report on the Franciscan Manuscripts is now completed, and the printing of it will be proceeded with at once. Owing to various causes, the completion of the concluding part has been much delayed, but this also is expected to be in the printer's hands within a few weeks. The Report, therefore, will in all probability be ready for presentation during the present Parliamentary session.
Cashel Postal Messenger
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether his attention has been directed to the dismissal of a postal messenger, named John O'Brien, in Golden sub-district, Cashel district, in the county Tipperary, on a report furnished by the sub-office official without any inquiry; whether he is aware that O'Brien had, a short time before the date of the report, received a good conduct badge and increased pay after twenty years service; whether any part of his duty was neglected on the occasion of the report; and, whether, in compliance with the wishes of the people of the entire district, as expressed in petition, he can see his way to order the reinstatement of O'Brien, or grant an open inquiry into the circumstances of his dismissal.
The case of John O'Brien, late a rural postman between Thomastown and Golden, Cashel, who was dismissed in December last after being for the fourth time reported for intoxication, was the subject of full inquiry and consideration by the Postmaster General before his dismissal was decided upon. It is the fact that in October last his good conduct stripe, of which he had been deprived in l893 (when he was for the third time reported for intoxication), was restored to him. While he was not absolutely incapable of performing his work on the last occasion on which he was under the influence of drink whilst on duty, the Postmaster General is of opinion that, having regard to his previous record, he could not be allowed to remain in the service. It is not desirable to reinstate him, and it is not proposed to reopen the case.
Royal Declaration Against Roman Catholicism—Coronation Oath
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the resolution of the Canadian House of Commons praying for a modification of the Royal Declaration; and whether before he returns any answer other than an unqualified adhesion to the resolution, he will afford the House of Commons an opportunity of considering the Canadian demand.
I have seer, press telegrams reporting the passing of the resolution to which the lion. Member refers, but I have received no communication from the Dominion Government on the subject. The latter part of the question should be addressed to the First Lord of the Treasury.
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if his attention has been drawn to a resolution of the Tuam Board of Guardians condemnatory of the Oath taken by the Sovereign on the accession; and whether the request of this Board and similar public bodies in Ireland for the modification of the Royal Declaration will be acceded to.
The following questions on the same subject also appeared on the Paper;—
To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether his attention has been called to the resolution against the present form of the King's Accession Oath, passed by an overwhelming majority in the Dominion Parliament at Ottawa; and whether an opportunity will be given the House of Commons of debating and voting upon the same subject.
To ask the First Lord of the Treasury if his attention has been called to a resolution passed by the Clare Grand Jury calling on Parliament to abolish the present King's Accession Oath as far as it deals with the Roman Catholic religion; whether, on receiving this resolution, the Irish Lord Chief Justice said he was glad it had been passed; and whether the Government will take any steps in the matter.
To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, having regard to the resolution passed by the Parliament of Canada in deprecation of that part of the Coronation Oath which is offensive to the religious feelings of the Catholics of the Empire, he will introduce a Bill to excise from the Oath that part of it which is an insult to His Majesty's Catholic subjects.
These questions relate to a matter on which I have already given several answers. I have really nothing to add to what I have already stated. My view, as I have already intimated to the House, is that the language in which the Oath referred to is couched is very unfortunate. I am not surprised that the form of the Oath as distinguished from the substance should have given pain to the Roman Catholic subjects of His Majesty; but what I want to point out to the House is, that the Oath will not have to be taken again during the present reign, and I do not think it is the habit of any Government to give pledges as to legislation beyond the session in which they are engaged.
I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he could not undertake to devote the small space of time necessary to amend the statute this session?
What evidence has the hon. Gentleman to support his statement that the time would be small? If the proportion of time taken by his friends in discussing the Supplementary Estimates is any indication, I do not think it would be small.
The right hon. Gentleman has addressed a question to me, hut I presume it would he out of order to answer him and continue tin discussion.
Civil Service Estimates
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether any objection exists to varying the order in which the items of the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates are put down in different years, so that some of the more important Supplementary Votes may be taken first; and, if not, whether he will arrange for some change to be made in this respect next year.
I have to say there is no objection, so far as I know, to the suggestion contained in the question, which is in entire accordance with the policy we have followed the last two years back, with regard to the order in which the Estimates are taken. As my hon. friend is aware, we have initiated the practice of putting down on the Vote on Account the Estimates which are most likely to attract the interest and attention of the House. We have, in regard to the ordinary Estimates of the year, taken care so to arrange them as to meet the general convenience of the House, and I see no reason why the same policy should not be extended to the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give a pledge to adhere to the practice of not altering the order of tin Votes without a general consultation with the different sections of the House?
T do not know what the hon. Member means by "general consultation." I have endeavoured always to meet the views of the House at large, and especially of the opponents of the Government.
Business Of The House
Are we to understand that the business on Monday next will be the continuation of the debate on the Army Estimates?
Yes. I should imagine that the debate initiated on Friday night will not be concluded on that day, and, if so, we propose to continue it on Monday, unless unforeseen circumstances should arise which necessitate the taking of other business.
When is it proposed to renew the debate on the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates?
On Thursday, after the motion relating to the Civil List.
I should like to point out that it has usually been the practice to allow a day or two to elapse between the making of the War Secretary's statement and the further consideration of the Estimate. That was my reason for asking.
Selection (Standing Committees) (Chairmen's Panel)
reported from the Committee of Selection that they had selected the following six Members to he the Chairmen's Panel and to serve as Chairmen of the two Standing Committees to be appointed under Standing Order No. 47;—Mr. John Ellis, Sir James Fergusson, Lord Edmond Fitzmaurice, Mr. Laurence Hardy, Colonel Nolan, and Mr. Stuart-Wortley.
Report to lie upon the Table.
Message From His Majesty (Her Majesty The Queen And Members Oe His Majesty's Family)
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: (at the Bar) acquainted the House that he had a Message from the King to this House signed by His Majesty's own hand.
And he presented the same to the House, and it was read by Mr. SPEAKER (all the Members being uncovered), and is as followeth:—
"Edward R
"His Majesty being desirous of making competent provision for the honourable support and maintenance of His Son, the Duke of Cornwall and York, His Daughter-in-law, the Duchess of Cornwall and York, and his Daughters, the Princess Louise, Duchess of Fife, the Princess Victoria, and Princess Charles of Denmark, and being further desirous that similar provision should be made for Her Majesty the Queen in the, event of Her surviving Him, and for the Duchess of Cornwall and York in tin event of Her surviving the Duke of Cornwall and York, recommends the consideration thereof to His Majesty's faithful Commons, and relies on their attachment to adopt such measures as may be suitable to the occasion."
Message From The Lords
London Underground Railways
That they have come to the following resolution, viz.:—
"That it is desirable that a Select Committee be appointed to join with Committee of the House of Commons to consider and report:—1. Whether the lines of route for underground railways in and near London, proposed by Bills which have been or may be introduced during the present Session, are best calculated to afford facilities for present and probable return traffic; and, if not, what modifications of those lines of route are desirable; 2.What special provision, if any, should be made for the protection of the owners, lessees, and occupiers of properties adjacent to underground railways from possible damage and annoyance; 3. What special terms and conditions, if any, as to the construction and working should be imposed upon the promoters; 4. Whether any, and which, of the schemes proposed by the said Rills should not be proceeded with during the present Session."
New Bills
Water Companies (Liability For Storage Of Water)
Bill to amend the Law relating to the liability of Water Companies for the Storage of Water, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Sinclair, Major Rasch, Mr. Rentoul, Mr. Flynn, and Mr. A. Thomas.
Water Companies (Liability For Storage Of Water) Bill
"To amend the Law relating to the liability of Water Companies for the Storage of Water," presented, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 19th March, and to be printed. [Bill 81.]
Employers' Liability Extension
Bill to amend the Acts relating to Employers' Liability, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Sinclair, Major Rasch, Mr. Rentoul, Mr. Boulnois, Mr. Flynn, and Mr. A. Thomas.
Employers' Liability Extension Bill
"To amend the Acts relating to Employers' Liability," presented, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 19th March, and to be printed. [Bill 82.]
Lights On Vehicles
Bill to require Vehicles on highways to carry lamps at night, ordered to be brought in by Sir Robert Mowbray, Mr. Bryce, Mr. Grenfell, Sir John Leng, Mr. Scott Montagu, Mr. Wanklyn, and Sir Albert Rollit.
Lights On Vehicles Bill
To require Vehicles on highways to carry lamps at night," presented, and read the first time; to be read a second lime upon Thursday next, and to be printed. [Bill 83]
Factory And Workshop Act (1871) Amendment
Bill to amend the Factory and Workshop Act, IS78, by reducing the period of employment on Saturday, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Harwood and Mr. Kenyon.
Factory And Workshop Act (1878) Amendment Bill
"To amend the Factory and Workshop Act, 1878, by reducing the period of employment on Saturday," presented, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Thursday, 21st March, and to be printed. [Bill 84.]
Rivers Pollution Prevention
Bill to make more effectual provision for the prevention of the Pollution of Rivers and Streams, ordered to be brought In by Sir Francis Powell, Mr. Wilson-Todd, Mr. Henry Hobhouse, Sir John Dorington, Dr. Farquharson, Mr. Brigg, Sir John Brunner, and Sir Walter Foster.
Rivers Pollution Prevention Bill
"To make more effectual provision for the prevention of the Pollution of Rivers and Streams," presented, and read the first time to be read a second time upon Wednesday, [Bill 85.] 8th May, and to be printed.
Sunday Closing (Wales) Act (1881) Amendment
Bill to amend the Sunday Closing (Wales) Act, 1881, and to make further provision respecting the sale of intoxicating liquors in Wales and Monmouthshire, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Herbert Roberts, Mr. Alfred Thomas, Mr. Lloyd-George, Mr. William Jones, and Mr. Herbert Lewis.
Sunday Closing (Wales) Act (1881) Amendment Bill
"To amend the Sunday Closing (Wales) Act, 1881, and to make further provision respecting the sale of Intoxicating Liquors in Wales and Monmouthshire," presented, and read the first time to be read a second time upon Wednesday, 20th March, and to be printed. [Bill 86.]
Parliamentary Elections (Mariners' Votes)
Bill to enable Officers and Seamen of the Royal Navy and Mercantile Marine and Fishermen to record their votes when by reason of their calling they will be at sea on the day of the poll, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Macdona, Sir John Colomb, Mr. Cust, Mr. David Morgan, Sir Seymour King, Mr. Firbank, and Sir Christopher Furness.
Parliamentary Elections (Mariners' Votes) Bill
"To enable Officers and Seamen of the Royal Navy and Mercantile Marine and Fishermen to record their votes when by reason of their calling they will be at sea on the day of the poll," presented, and read the first time to be read a second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 87.]
Supply
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]
Civil Services And Revenue Departments Estiments, 1901–2 (Vote On Account)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "a sum, not exceeding £17,304,000, be granted to His Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the Charges for the following Civil Services and Revenue Departments for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1902, namely:
CIVIL SERVICES. | |
Class IV. | |
£ | |
Board of Education | 4,100,000 |
Class II. | |
Board of Trade | 60,000 |
Class I. | |
Royal Palaces and Marlborough House | 20,000 |
Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens | 40,000 |
Houses of Parliament Biddings | 16,000 |
Gladstone Monument | 1,000 |
Miscellaneous Legal Buildings, Great Britain | 18,000 |
Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain | 12,000 |
Diplomatic and Consular Buildings | 12,000 |
Revenue Buildings | 140,000 |
Public Buildings, Great Britain | 145,000 |
Surveys of the United Kingdom | 80,000 |
Harbours under the Board of Trade | 2,000 |
Peterhead Harbour | 6,000 |
Rates on Government Property | 250,000 |
Public Works and Buildings, Ireland | 70,000 |
Railways, Ireland | 70,000 |
Class II. | |
United Kingdom and England— | |
House of Lords, Offices | 3,000 |
House of Commons, Offices | 12,000 |
Treasury and Subordinate Departments | 39,000 |
Home Office | 50,000 |
Foreign Office | 30,000 |
Colonial Office | 23,000 |
Privy Council Office, etc. | 5,000 |
Privy Seal Office | 1,000 |
Mercantile Marine Services | 30,000 |
Bankruptcy Department of the Board of Trade | 3 |
Board of Agriculture | 75,000 |
Charity Commission | 15,000 |
Civil Service Commission | 18,000 |
Exchequer and Audit Department | 24,000 |
Friendly Societies Registry | 2,200 |
Local Government Board | 85,000 |
Lunacy Commission | 5,000 |
Mint (including Coinage) | 10 |
National Debt Office | 6,000 |
Public Record Office | 11,000 |
Public Works Loan Commission | 5 |
Registrar General's Office | 130,000 |
Stationery and Printing | 280,000 |
Woods, Forests, etc., Office of | 8,000 |
Works and Public Buildings, Office of | 23,000 |
Secret Service | 40,000 |
Scotland:— | |
Secretary for Scotland | 25,500 |
Fishery Board | 8,000 |
Lunacy Commission | 2,500 |
Registrar General's Office | 28,000 |
Local Government Board | 5,00O |
Ireland: — | |
Lord Lieutenant's Household | 2,000 |
Chief Secretary and Subordinate Departments | 16,000 |
Departments of Agriculture | 70,000 |
Charitable Donations and Bequests Office | 1,000 |
Local Government Board | 20,000 |
Public Record Office | 2,000 |
Public Works Office | 16,000 |
Registrar General's Office | 20,000 |
Valuation and Boundary Survey | 6,000 |
Class III. | |
Tinted Kingdom and England:— | |
Law Charges | 40,000 |
Miscellaneous Legal Expenses | 27,000 |
Supreme Court of Judicature | 140,000 |
Land Registry | 14,000 |
County Courts | 14,000 |
Police, England and Wales | 22,000 |
Prisons, England and the Colonies | 260,000 |
Reformatory and Industrial Schools, Great Britain | 140,000 |
Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum | 18,000 |
Scotland — | |
Law Charges and Courts of Law | 30,000 |
Register House, Edinburgh | 15,000 |
Crofters Commission | 2,000 |
Prisons, Scotland | 30,000 |
Ireland:— | |
Law Charges and Criminal Prosecutions | 35,000 |
Supreme Court of Judicature, and other Legal Departments | 45,000 |
Land Commission | 50,000 |
County Court Officers, etc. | 46,000 |
Dublin Metropolitan Police | 40,000 |
Loyal Irish Constabulary | 600,000 |
Prisons, Ireland | 45,000 |
Reformatory and Industrial Schools | 55,500 |
Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum | 3,500 |
Class IV. | |
United Kingdom and England:— | |
British Museum | 80,000 |
National Gallery | 9,000 |
National Portrait Gallery | 3,000 |
Wallace Collection | 4,000 |
Scientific Investigation, etc., United Kingdom | 25,000 |
Universities and Colleges, Great Britain, and Intermediate Education, Wales | 41,000 |
Scotland:— | |
Public Education | 650,000 |
National Gallery | 1,400 |
Ireland:— | |
Public Education | 600,000 |
Endowed Schools Commissioners | 400 |
National Gallery | 1,400 |
Queen's Colleges | 2,500 |
Class V. | |
Diplomatic and Consular Services | 225,000 |
Uganda, Central and East Africa Protectorates and Uganda Railway | 320,000 |
Colonial Services | 230,000 |
Cyprus, Grant in Aid | 15,000 |
Subsidies to Telegraph Companies | 50,000 |
Class VI | |
Superannuation and Retired Allowances | 280,000 |
Merchant Seamen's Fund Pensions, etc | 3,000 |
Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances | 1,000 |
Hospitals and Charities, Ireland | 17,000 |
Class VII. | |
Temporary Commissions | 10,082 |
Miscellaneous Expenses | 8,000 |
£10,434,000 | |
Revenue Departments. | |
Customs | 350,000 |
Inland Revenue | 830,000 |
Post Office | 3,800,000 |
Post Office Packet Service | 210,000 |
Post Office Telegraphs | 1,680,000 |
Total for Revenue Departments | £ 6,870,000 |
Grand Total | £17,304,000 |
Said that during the last twelve mouths they had had in the administration of the Board of Education a very serious departure from those principles which had been laid down in the past in this House and a very serious blow had been struck at the integrity and efficiency of the higher elementary school work of this realm. He found that, in January, 1899. Little more than two years ago, the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education made a statement which was then, and was now, he believed, in consonance with the wishes of the House and the desires of the country. He would quote that statement and then proceed to show the Committee to what extent and in what manner the administration of the Board of Education had departed from the sound principles laid down by the Minister in charge himself. Speaking at Bradford, the right hon. Gentleman said that "he thought that it would be a most unfortunate thing if the hoard schools, the higher elementary schools, and the schools of science in the large cities were in any way interfered with." He had to submit to the Committee that the operations of the school boards in the great cities of the country in their higher grade schools and schools of science had been very seriously interfered with by the Board of Education under the administration of the right lion, Gentleman himself. The Committee would remember that little more than twelve months ago a great amount of feeling was manifested in the House upon the question of higher elementary school work. A new principle of allocating the Parliamentary grant to elementary schools had been brought in. And one consequential feature of it was, that the schools which bad previously received the highest grants were by the levelling system cut down in tin amount which they drew from the grant. A formidable agitation grew up in the country that the higher grade schools were being unjustly treated, and in March, 1900, the Government, through the mouthpiece of the right hon. Gentleman, announced a compromise and promised to put organised schools and higher grade schools on a legal and legitimate footing. That promise had not been carried out, and the Higher Elementary School Minute, adopted in April last with general approval of the House, at a time when the feeling of hon. Members of all sections was so strong, had not been adhered to, and in spirit, if not in letter, that Minute had become something like an administrative fraud. He must go back further than twelve months ago in order to deal with the whole question of the attack on higher grade schools, which, if not initiated and not favoured, bad at least been not repudiated by the Board of Education, and by the right hon. Gentleman himself. This attack had grown and grown Until the higher grade schools and the organised science schools were in great peril. The evening continuation schools were in greater peril, and the machinery set up in April last had been nullified and stultified by the Board of Education itself. Four years ago, by the enter prise of many school boards, schools had been set up something after the pattern of Les Ecoles Primaires Superieures in France, and the higher grade schools in Germany. These schools were fostered and encouraged by the Board of Education, grants were given to them, and expression of satisfaction were made regarding the work done by them. The Vice-President of the Council went down to the country to open these schools sometimes all official from the Board of Education itself performed that duly, and, generally speaking, the policy of the Department was to foster and encourage, approve and improve these schools. But a change came over that policy. Schools which had been built by school boards, some of them on the invitation even of the Board of Education, for the express purpose of giving this higher grade education, were refused grants when application was made for them by the school hoards. Money laid out in furnishing physical and chemical laboratories, and in the preparation of rooms for drawing and other higher elementary work, became of non-effect and all this was done by the order of the Board of Education under the right hon. Gentleman. Now, the Board of Education existed by the will of the people of this country. And the right hon. Gentleman himself, as its head, existed to promote and not to retard education and it there were any gentlemen on the Board of Education who were of opinion that education was to be kept at a standstill, marking time, so to speak, and that what was regarded as a satisfactory amount of education twenty-five years ago was sufficient now, then they entirely misinterpreted the feeling of the House and the country. Those higher grade schools were fulfilling an admirable function. They were not very numerous, only some sixty in all, but, such as they were, they were preparing lads of from thirteen to sixteen years of age to enter the technical Schools and colleges of the country with that preliminary knowledge which the director's of these schools and colleges found to be non-existent formerly. They were preparing these lads to become captains of industry, managers, foremen, draftsmen, chemists, and leaders of the industrial classes. If one lesson was to be gained from the Reports of Royal Commissions and private investigators as to the condition of things in France, Germany, Belgium, Holland, and America, it was that the cause that the success of the manufacturing processes in these countries, compared with our own, consisted in the higher education of foremen, managers, leaders, etc. The higher education of the great mass of the operatives was comparatively unimportant to that. The higher grade schools and the schools of science existed for providing an education of that kind, which was vitally necessary to the continued existence of the manufacturing industries of this country. The change had begun through the action of an institution that had been condemned both in the House and in the country— the old Science and Art Department at South Kensington. When the Board of Education issued a Day School Code, it had to lie on the Table of the House for a certain number of days, and could be upset by the vote of the House: but this Science and Art Department had had the extraordinary power of being able to issue their own rules and regulations without consulting the House or laying them on the Table at all. The reactionary, foolish, almost criminal policy of hampering the schools appeared to have found a ready supporter in the right hon. The Vice-President of the Council. The first step taken was to disable school boards from receiving Science and Art grants for science and art classes and organised science schools. But grants were given to all sorts of unimportant and unrepresentative bodies in fact, to any committee of two or three gentlemen, if only they could get sonic little local support in the way of fees or subscriptions. Ordinary grammar schools maintained very largely by endowments, and proprietary schools run as a commercial concern for profit, might apply for these science grants and Get them but by a ukase of this self-constituted and independent section of the Board of Education, issued last year, school boards might not make application for grants to their schools except Upon conditions. They must find local support in the shape of fees, which was opposed entirely to the policy of tree education, or they must obtain support from a rate levied under the Technical Instruction Act. Now the Department knew that very few local authorities rated themselves under the Technical Instruction Act. They did not sec the use of doing that when there was a school rate already drawn by the same authority from the same ratepayer. The policy was first of all to disable the school boards from obtaining Science and Art grants for their schools. That being done by the autocratic procedure of the Board of Education, the next step was to disable the school boards from making up this loss by preventing them from using the school board rate for the purposes of higher education. Having succeeded in disabling the school boards from participating in Science and Art grants, except on condition of charging fees, the next step was to prevent the boards from using the school board rate. The result was that a School of Art in North London, a relic of the era of philanthropic enterprise, drew the attention of the Local Government Board to the expenditure of the London School Board in science and art classes and evening continuation schools. The auditor, under the circumstances, was obliged to test the question raised, and it was desirable to know whether the Board of Education was represented at the audit, and whether the attention of the auditor was drawn to the past administration of the Board in that matter, and whether any care was taken by the Board to see that the auditor was fully informed upon the question from the point of view of public policy, and of law, and of the minutes having the force of law. The Committee would also wish to know whether the Board of Education made any representations. Or whether it did anything more than sit quiet and wait the decision of the law courts upon what had taken place. The case stood for appeal to a higher court, and meanwhile there was the unseemly spectacle of the authority charged with the duty of providing higher elementary education compelled to go into the law courts and spend the money of the ratepayers in defending the right of the authority to give higher education. Last April the policy of the Government was to favour and encourage and to reward the higher elementary schools' efforts. What had the Board of Education done since last April to make the actions of the board schools legal by minutes or otherwise to make such administration applicable. Nothing had been done by the Board of Education, and, so long as the present policy existed, nothing would be done. It was significant that a committee had been formed to fight school boards on this question, and had for its chairman the noble Lord the Member for Greenwich, while another prominent member of the committee and associated with him was long the leader of the Moderate party on the London School Board, and now, he believed, Member for Aston. The result had been that the work of the school boards in regard to science classes had been paralysed. The work of evening continuation schools had been damaged irretrievably or retarded for years to come. The condition had been imposed that education should be confined to persons under sixteen, and as a consequence 150,000 persons in those schools last year would, if the decision were upheld, be ousted from that means of education. They had been told that the Higher Elementary School Minute would place science schools on a legal and legitimate footing, but he complained that out of 190 applications the Department had sanctioned only two in eleven months. The London School Board made application for the recognition of seventy-nine schools, in various localities of London, to which the most promising children of the elementary schools were to be drafted. All the principal school boards of the country, too, made application for recognition of higher elementary schools, and again and again they had failed. All sorts of pretexts had been made for the refusal of recognition. It had been impossible for the local authorities to please the Board of Education, and no school board in the country was Satisfied with the way in which the Minute had been administered and hardly one but was disgusted with the administration of the right hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Gentleman, no doubt, would say he expected when this Minute was put forward that the ordinary science schools would be transformed into higher elementary schools, and would probably say that he was not to blame but that was not the opinion generally held. In an organised science school a boy might remain until the age of eighteen, but according to the Higher Elementary School Minute the moment he arrived at fifteen he had to leave. Other conditions laid down in the Minute made it impracticable, and the right hon. Gentle-man was warned at the time it was put forward that it would be so. All this indicated, he submitted, something like a deliberate policy, engineered by whom, and arising from what sources, he would not attempt to discuss. It was something like a deliberate policy to check the higher elementary education, nullify the efforts of the school boards, and change the whole policy of the country in respect to these schools, and the Committee ought to consider that such a policy was not the kind of work they expected the Board of Education to do, and not the kind of work for which money was voted in Committee for the Board of Education. Having disabled the school boards, having refused to recognise the higher elementary schools, having destroyed one useful set of machinery which had existed for twenty-four years, having refused to set up a new set of machinery, he could find no excuse for the course which the Board had pursued. From what quarter and from what machinery they were to get the higher primary school at all? There was no secondary education department set up by statute. The school boards had been refused power to set up these schools, and there was no authority capable of supplying them. Higher elementary education was to go by the board. They had to wait, he supposed, for higher primary schools to be built and managed by an authority not yet created. In the meantime the excellent work done up to now was hampered and arrested, and if the appeal in another place went against them it was to come entirely to an end. The right hon. Gentleman the Vice-President of the Council would quibble, if he might use the term, between higher elementary schools and secondary schools, and distinguish between one authority and another, and east himself on the protection of the law. No doubt he would give a very plausible explanation of the whole circumstances, but the hon. Member would ask the Committee to remember that the net result of all these proceedings was bad. The right hon. Gentleman would tell them that the Government were limited at present by legal considerations. They had heard a good deal of that kind of thing from the right hon. Gentleman. There was nobody more eloquent and less operative than the right hon. Gentleman, but eloquent platitudes and amusing epigrams were poor food for the educational needs of the country. In moving that the Vote he reduced by £ 100 he asked the Committee to declare that the time had come when they wished the Education Board to make a serious attempt to provide for the people of the country that higher elementary education which they stood in need of, and which it was in the interests of the country they should have.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Item, Vote 1, Class 4 (Board of Education), be reduced by £ 100."— ( Mr. Yoxall)
The hon. Member who has just sat down complained of two things. First, he complained that school boards had not power to spend the school board rate upon, instruction outside the subjects of the Elementary Education Code in day schools and night schools; and, secondly, he complained that under the Higher Elementary School Minute of last year the school boards did not get large enough Exchequer grants for their higher elementary schools. Now it is quite true that these higher elementary schools sprang up almost immediately after the passing of the Elementary Education Act of 1870. They were not invented by either Governments or societies; they really sprang up by themselves. I do not think any the worse of them for that, for such schools are better suited to meet the wants of the people than those invented for them by politicians. I want to ask the Committee to remember what the hon. Member has not explained as yet, that there are two absolutely different kinds of higher grade schools. In the first place, there are a number of higher grade schools which teach each of the subjects of the Elementary Day School Code. They were formerly under the Education Department. They were inspected by the officers of the Education Department, and they were subject to all the rules of the Education Department. I have very often been asked how many of this sort of schools there are. I am sorry to say that I have never been able to answer the question, because there is every kind of school in the shading off from the most elementary school in the country up to the very best of these higher grade schools, and every possible variation of schools between one extreme and the other which keep within the limits of the Elementary Day School Code. It is impossible to say where to draw the line and to say of the schools above. "These are higher grade schools." and of the schools below, "These are only ordinary elementary schools." But there is no doubt there are a very great number of them. The legality of these schools has never been called in question, nor has the right of the school board to spend the rates in building and maintaining such schools ever been called in question. The right to spend the rates on schools of this kind is not in any way affected or called in question by the recent judgment. But, besides these higher grade schools, of the legality of which there has never been any question, there is another kind of higher grade school which I will describe. It is a school which consists of two divisions— an upper division and a lower division. The lower division is a public elementary school it very generally takes the older children in the higher standards, it takes specific subjects, and it obtains its grants from the Education Department, and is conducted as an elementary school. The upper division is not a public elementary school at all it is, frankly, an organised school of science. It has no chil- dren In the standards. It takes not the subjects of the Elementary Day School Code, but the science and art subjects of the Directory. It is inspected by the inspectors of the Science and Art Department, and it receives its grant from that Department. It is an organised science and not a public elementary school. Schools of this kind, of which there are about sixty or seventy in the country, are inspected by two distinct sets of inspectors. The Education Department inspector inspects the lower division and shuts his eyes to the existence of the higher division, of which he is not officially cognisant. The Science and Art Department inspector comes in his turn and inspects the other division. And closes his eyes to the existence of the lower division, with which he has officially nothing whatever to do. There is no inspection of these schools as a whole. There are no proper accounts kept of these schools as a whole, and they are kept as a sort of double institutions such as I have described. Schools of this kind have never been declared to be illegal either by the Education Department or by the judgment in the recent ease. There is no illegality in the establishment of such schools. The illegality is in the application of the school rate to the building or maintenance of the upper division of that school. That is not a new discovery of mine or of the Science and Art Department. It has been known ever since schools of this kind were conducted. I will just give the Committee an example or two of what was said in past times. I have here an official letter from the Education Department to the Barrow-in-Furness School Board, written in 1884, which says—
Then there is a letter from the Local Government Board to the London School Board, in November, 1885, when an auditor had disallowed an expenditure of the Board exactly analogous to that which was disallowed the other day. The Local Government Board says—"I am to point out that the provision of a separate school for science and art classes does not appear to come within the province of a school board."
Then there is a letter written to the London School Board in 1888, which says—"The School Board have no authority in law to establish or maintain a science and art school at the expense of the school fund, Because that school is not an elementary school within the meaning of the Education Acts."
I have another letter written, in 1888, by the Local Government Board to the Brighton School Board, who had also had their expenditure disallowed by their auditor upon similar grounds. It says—"An organised science and art school is quite distinct from a public elementary school. In such a school the money paid by the Science and Art Department to the managers forms no part of the receipts or expenditure of the school as a public elementary school… The rates cannot legally be applied to supply instruction in any subject which is not recognised by the Code and taught to the children in the standards."
I find again, in 1892, a letter to the Hanley School Board, which says—"The school board had no legal authority to pay out of the funds of the school board any part of the costs of establishing and maintaining an organised school of science, the school not being an elementary one within the meaning of the Education Acts."
I think that that will show that the expenditure of the school rate on the maintenance of schools like the upper department of this kind of upper grade school has all along been declared by the Education Department to be illegal, and the judgment given the other day only confirmed the statements of the. Department under every kind of Minister, from the time these schools were, established down to the present day. There was no difficulty about the buildings, because the schools were established in buildings which were already in existence, or which, in some cases, were given for the purpose. As regards maintenance, the schools were at the outset maintained not out of the school rate, but by fees and the Science and Art grants. Some of the school boards boasted not only that the schools were not a burden on the rates, but that the ratepayers made a profit from the fact that the school board managed a school of this kind. I should like to establish what I have said by a quotation or two. The Brighton School Board writes, in lc887—"The higher section of the [higher grade] school organised as proposed and receiving grants from the Science and Art Department as an organised science school would not be a public elementary school, nor could the cost of the erection of the premises in which it was to be conducted be included in a loan sanctioned by this Department."
Before the Education Commission in 1884, Mr. Scotson, the headmaster of the Central Higher Grade School, Manchester, said, in answer to a question on this point, "It is practically more than self-supporting." He very frequently had more than £150 to distribute amongst the teachers, of which £50 used to go to himself. A great deal has been said in these controversies about the late Mr. Mundella's Circular in 1882, which undoubtedly encouraged the establishment of these schools. What did he say? I have never seen it quoted—"If the amount of the fees received is taken into account, it will he seen that a profit to the ratepayers has resulted."
"Under a well-organised system of graded schools the cost to the ratepayers need not be greater than it is now."
With the Science and Art grants.
Then Mr. Macarthy, the chairman of the Birmingham School Board, gave evidence before the Secondary Education Commission in 1895, and this is what he said—
To show my bona fides in the matter, I may mention that in 1890, when I was comparatively new to this office, I wrote an article, on education, which appeared in the Nineteenth Century. That article was very much complained of on some accounts, but this particular passage was criticised by no one—"I should like to say that the present Board secondary school can only rightly exist if, so far as its most ordinary work is concerned— namely, the real secondary work—it costs the local rates nothing. Practically, such schools are dependent on grants from the Science and Art Department."
That shows my bona fide belief of a few years ago, that the school rate was not spent on the maintenance of these schools, and that they were really not Only self-supporting, but, in some cases, even a source of profit to the ratepayers. Then there is the question of buildings. That, of course, is the difficulty. A school board cannot raise a loan to build a school without obtaining the sanction of the Education Department to the loan. School boards from time to time applied for loans to build schools of this kind, but they were always told that it would not be legal to charge such loans upon the school rates. Yet, in spite of that, it is quite true that such schools have been built and the expenditure met out of loans charged on the school rate. I will illustrate what the modus operandi, generally, was. An application was made by the Brighton School Board for sanction to a loan for building a higher grade school, in which the upper portion should be a school of science. They were informed that such a use of the school board funds was illegal. That application was then withdrawn, and an application was made for a public elementary school giving science instruction under the Code, and having laboratories for that purpose. Sanction to that was given, the school was built, and was at once used not as a public elementary school, but as a school of science."The Boards, as purveyors of higher educacation, allege that they make a profit which inures to the benefit of the ratepayers."
was understood to say that in the case of Hanley the building built with the loan referred to was a public elementary school and an organised school of science as well, but the main part of it was used for the purposes of the latter.
I will give the facts of that case. The Hanley School Board, in 1892, asked for sanction to a school which was to begin at Standard VII., and have a higher department as an organised science school. The Education Department replied that such a department would not be a public, elementary school, nor could the cost of the erection of the premises in which it was conducted be included in the loan sanctioned by the Department under the Elementary Education Acts. The school board replied withdrawing that part of the scheme, and saying that the chemical laboratory, art room, etc., would now be used for the instruction of children In the standards of the Education Code. The loan was thereupon sanctioned. The school was opened on 24th May, 1804, and a school of science started in the building. Three years after there were 191 pupils in the organised science school, no science at all being taught to the children in the standards.
Will the right hon. Gentleman quote the figures for the school as a whole, or allow me to do so?
The hon. Member will have an opportunity afterwards; it is not germane to my argument. I am illustrating how it came about that although the Education Department said it was illegal, yet these schools were built. I will give another very recent ease which shows exactly how the thing is done. In February, 1899, when attention had been called to this illegality and everybody was aware of it, the Leeds School Board wrote for sanction to a building they required for science accommodation and intended for the use of scholars in the primary elementary schools taking the scientific subjects in accordance with the scheme of science laid down in the Code. The reply of the Education Department was this—
That is clear enough. But this is what the school board say in their report eighteen months later—"We understand the premises to he required for the purposes of a primary elementary school in which science is to he taught in accordance with the scheme laid down in the Code; that the science rooms are not more than sufficient for these purposes; that they will be used for these purposes; and upon that understanding we sanction the loan."
—which is a school of science. I thereupon directed a letter to the school board to ask how they reconciled the condition on which they accepted the sanction to the loan with this statement in their report, but I am sorry to say, although that letter was sent some time ago, they have not yet offered an explanation. The hon. Member in his speech said that if this judgment is affirmed on appeal it will not touch the buildings, because they are built and done with. But the judgment will, as the hon. Member Pointed out, strike at the revenue of the schools. It will prevent the rates being any longer spent in the maintenance of these schools, which, I may say, nobody wishes to see injured or destroyed. The school boards will have three courses open to them. First of all they can return to the condition of things, if it is possible to return to it, which obtained in the early days of these schools; they can charge fees and make the schools self-supporting, as Mr. Mundella said they ought to be, with the provision of free places for children whose parents are unable to pay the fees, but who deserve to be educated in a school of this kind. The second possibility is, to come to terms with the local authority which has power to rate for this purpose. The hon. Member was very scornful about that. The real point is that the borough or urban council has power to lay a rate to be applied to this purpose."The fine structure now in course of erection in Burton Street is to be the future home of the present Southern Higher Grade School',
Up to a penny.
Yes, and a penny would in most cases be sufficient. That arrangement is actually in operation at Jarrow-on-Tyne and New Mills, Derbyshire.
In two cases!
Those are two cases I know of and can verify, but I have every reason to believe that there are many other cases, and if there were time I have no doubt I could find them. There is the case of Ulverston. Ulverston was one of the school boards that applied to have an elementary school, and correspondence took place. Undoubtedly they did not want a higher elementary school at all; they wanted a school of science. Negotiations are now going on which, I believe, will be brought to a satisfactory conclusion, by which the county of Lancaster will lay a penny rate in the town of Ulverston and apply that rate to the maintenance of this school.
Do I understand that the county can levy a rate in Ulverston?
It is rather a curious state of the law at present. Ulverston can lay a penny rate itself, and the County of Lancaster also can lay a penny rate.
In Ulverston?