House Of Commons
Tuesday, 19th March, 1901.
Private Bill Business
British Westinghouse Electric And Manufacturing Company Bill
Order [25th February], That the Bill be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, read, and discharged.
Resolutions reported from the Committee:
Resolutions agreed to.
London County Council (Tramways And Street Widentngs)
Report [this day] from the Select Committee on Standing Orders read.
Bill ordered to he brought in by Mr. John Burns and Mr. Lough.
reported from the Committee of Selection, That they had selected Mr. Baird to be a member of the Parliamentary Panel of Members of this House to act as Commissioners in pursuance of the provisions of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, in the place of Sir Charles Dalrymple.
Report to lie upon the Table.
Petitions in favour, from Leighton: Liverpool; and Coates; to lie upon the Table.
Elementary Education (Higher Grade And Evening Continuation Schools)
Petitions for alteration of Law, from Scarborough; Barnsley; land National Union of Teachers; to lie upon the Table.
Licensing (Sale Of Intoxicating Liquors)
Petitions for alteration of Law, from Warbleton; and Midhurst; to lie upon the Table.
Liquor Traffic Local Veto (Scotland) Bill
Petition from Duniper Green, in favour: to lie upon the Table.
Petitions for extension to women, from Manchester; Birmingham and other places; and Women Workers in the Cotton Factories of Lancashire: to lie upon the Table.
Poor Law Officers' Superannuation Act, 1896
Petition from Isle of Wight, against alteration of Law; to lie upon the Table.
Petitions for alteration of Law, from Erith; and Thorn hill; to lie upon the Table.
Sale Of Intoxicating Liquors On Sunday Bill
Petitions in favour, from Redhill;. and Guildford; to lie upon the Table.
Sale Of Intoxicating Liquors To Children Bill
Petitions in favour, from Sheffield (forty-one); East Renfrewshire (two); Mossley; Bainbridge; North Shields;: Bampton; Birmingham (eleven); Hands-worth; Inverness (eleven); Sparkhill; Droylsden; Tiverton; Goole; South London; Plymouth; (three); Kings-wood; Tottenham; Redditch; Edinburgh (eleven); Burslem; London (four); Glasgow (twelve); Chorley; Upper Holloway; Frant; Manchester (two); Liverpool (eighteen); Rotherham;: Knighton; Motherwell (three); Eastbourne; Ealing Dean; Margate; Shrewsbury; West Kensington; Blooms-bury; Walworth (two); Ticehurst; Kennington (two); Brixton Hill; Chernside West; Heaton Mersey; York;. Leeds (thirteen); Tiverton-on-Avon;. Camberwell (three); Peckham (two);, Stratford; West Ham; Ashurst;. Brighton; Chailey (two); North Taw-ton (two); Torry; Birkenhead (three);. Lewes (two); Withington (three); Clapham (three); Elgin; Bishops Stortford (three) ; Leytonstone (twelve); Forest Gate; Bath; Harrow Green; Pollokshaws; Winchester; Bristol (seven); Llandyssiliogogo (two); Wheatley Hill (two); Cilfynydd; Penzance;
Cardigan; Littlehampton; Farnham; Ecclesall; Kenton; Salisbury; Falkirk (two); Clynder Rosneath: Newquay; Wylye; St. Ives (four): Woodhouse Hill"; Elland; Hanwell; Rastrick; Abernethy; Gloucetser (two); Lanark (two); Brockley; Lambeth: Wilmslow: Woodford Green; Muirhead: Penpont; Garston (two); Mile End; Portswood: Harrow; Penycae; Lockerbie; Lewis-ham; Pudsey Valley; Hohn: Dalkeith; Bradford; Stockport: Dartford; Ashwater; Llanfyllin (four); Grantown-on-Spey; Old Machar; Ivybridge; Peterhead; Sparkbrook (two); North Kensington; Deptford (two): Worcester: Wilmslow; Pagham; Tranent; Brad-ford-on-Avon; Corsham (two); Bathgate; Kilburn; Machynlleth; Oldham; Finsbury; Bradford (Yorks.) (five); Great Lumley; Queen's Park,; Huntingdon; Croydon (eighteen); Maldon; West Croydon (three); South Norwood (two); Woodside; Thornton Heath (three); Norwood; Upper Norwood (four); Upper Caterham; Staly-bridge; Maidenhead; Reach: Baildon; Lee; Market Lavington; South Petherton; Taunton (three); Dublin; Wishaw; School Board for London; Staines; Tockwith; Cambridge; Fulbourn; Leicester (fourteen); East Lambeth; Chesterton; Bridgwater (two); Sack-more; Exford; Brixton (two): Altrincham; Clitheroe; Cubitt Town; Tenby Derby; Grifithstown; Washford; Rugby; Banff; Dunfermline; Hare-court; Bridlington; Morley (three); Watchet; Old Kent Road; Wolverhampton (two); Rushden; Waterhouses (two); Penrhyn; Durham (three): Delton: Wellington; Willenhall; Short Heath; New Brancepeth (five); Tudhoe Colliery (three); Highworth; Aberdeen (two); Seaford; Brandon Colliery; Ripley; Middleton (eight); Thirsk; Barwick-in-Elmet; Nicklefield; Uddingstone; Stockwell; Cottingley; South Nuffield; Red Hill (three); Greenock (two) Mil-torn; Ossett (two); Shotts; Milton; St. Just; Scarborough (three); Higham; Criccieth; Watford; Knaresborough (two); Pateley Bridge; Cilcain; Lennen Cramlington Colliery (two); North Seaton; Winchester; Chesterfield (five); Norton; Appledore (two); Penrith; Sheerness (two); Langwarthby; Newbiggin; Stainton; Wigton; (two): Kes-
wick; Anfield; Newmains; Malvern (two); Northumberland; Great Malvern; Llanllwchaiarn (two); Gulval; Hey moor; Tregavra; Long Rock; Penzance (ten); Mousehole; Marazion; New Mill: Melksham; Ysbytty Ifan; Deiniolen: Hipperholme; Marple (two); Hyde Town; Brimingtou (three); Whittington Moor; Ryton-on-Tyne; Birtley: Royton (three); Oldham; Leith: Brampton; Aberchirder; Nymps-field: Stroud (three); Nailsworth; Heanor (two): Stonehouse; Charfield; Barnsley (four); Woodchester; Dolwyddelan; Radeliffe (three); Halton Lea Gate: Cromhall; Cotlessie; New burgh; Farnworth (twelve); Llandudno (two); Kensal Town: Kirkdale; Penmaenmawr (nine): Dwygyfylchi (two); Houghton le-Spring; Tavistock; Dewsbury; Milnrow (two): Denton; Sandiacre (three); Batley: Whitefield; Long Eaton; Hols-worthy (two); Frodsham; Edmonton; Dulwich; Kidderminster (three); Ilkeston (two); Partick; Haltwhistle; Darlington; Droylsden; Bolton (four); Swindon; Langley Moor (two); Brandon, Colliery (three); Esh Winning; Stonehaven: Upholland; Ormskirk; and Browney Colliery; to lie upon the Table.
Sale Of Intoxicating Liquors To Children (Scotland) Bill
Petitions in favour, from Ayr (four); Stonehaven; Saltoun; Campbeltown (two): Govan (two); Perth (three);: Harthill: Bowmore; Sanquhar; Newburgh; Wick; Edinburgh (three); Ceres: Craigneuk; Motherwell; Airdrie Kilbrandon and Kilchattan; Dalziel (two); Cupar; Rothes; Dunfermline;: Forres: Strathaven; Dunbar; Carluke (two): Broughty Ferry; Douglas; Ecclefechan (two); Kirriemuir; Thorn-hill; Dalkeith; Peterhead; Marnoch (two): Thurso: Bathgate; Eastwood; Glasgow (three); Stornoway; Largs (two); Renton; Cromarty (three); Brae-mar; Kelso; Peebles (three); Saltcoats;: Helensburgh: Morebattle; Fraserburgh; Stonehaven; Alloa; Rutherglen; Dalmuir; Blairgowrie; Clydebank; Dunfermline; Dennistown; Lanarkshire; Caldercruix (two); Shotts; Ardessier; Blantyre; Tain (two); Fountainbridge; Partick; and Dunoon; to lie upon the Table.
Sovereign's Oath On Accession Bill
Petition from Inverkeithing, against; to lie upon the Table.
Sunday Closing (Wales) Act (1881) Amendment Bill
Petition from Cilfynydd, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
Petition from Bristol, for prohibition; to lie upon the Table.
Returns, Reports, Etc
Superannuation Act, 1884
Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated 14th March, 1901, declaring that William C. Hoskins, Labourer, Royal Laboratory, War Department, was appointed without a Civil Service Certificate through inadvertence on the part of the Head of his Department [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Factory And Workshop (Use Of Lead In The Manufacture Of Pottery)
Copy presented, of Reports received by the Secretary of State for the Home Department from Professor T. E. Thorpe, C.B., LL.D., F.R.S., Principal of the Government Laboratory, on the Use of Lead in the Manufacture of Pottery [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Copy presented, of Papers relating to negotiations between Commandant Louis Botha and Lord Kitchener [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Revenue And Expenditure (England, Scotland, And Ireland)
Return ordered, "showing, for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1901, (1) the amount contributed by England, Scotland, and Ireland, respectively, to the Revenue collected by Imperial officers; (2) the expenditure on English, Scottish, and Irish services met out of such Revenue; and (3) the balances of Revenue contributed by England, Scotland, and Ireland, respectively, which are available for Imperial Expenditure (in
continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 336, of Session 1900)."—( M r. Lough.)
Imperial Revenue (Collection And Expenditure) (Great Britain And Ireland)
Return ordered, "relating to Imperial Revenue (Collection and Expenditure) (Great Britain and Ireland) for the year ending the 31st day of March, 1901 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 337, of Session 1 900)."—( Mr. Lough.)
Wexford County Council V Local Government Board
Return ordered, "giving the Report of the Judgment delivered in the Irish Court of Appeal on Monday the 25th day of February last, together with the Affidavits on both sides, and the Letter of the Local Government Board referred to in the said Judgment with the Reply of the County Wexford County Council thereto."—( Sir Thomas Esmonde.)
Address for "Return showing, with reference to the cases of Lead Poisoning reported during the years 1899 and 1900, in the earthenware and china industry ( a) the severity of the attack, ( b) the number (if any) of previous attacks, and ( c) the main symptoms referable to Lead Poisoning."—( Mr. Jesse (Collings.)
Oral Answers To Questions
South African War—Peace Negotiations With Boer Generals
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can now make a statement as to the present position of the pourparlers which it is alleged have been or are being conducted with General Botha, General De Wet, and possibly other generals, with reference to a cessation of active hostilities, as regards all or certain portions of the forces still opposing the British arms in South Africa. The following questions also appeared on the Paper:—
To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can now give the result of the negotiations, reported to have been established with General Botha and other generals in South Africa, with reference to the cessation of active hostilities between all or certain portions of the forces still opposing the British arms in that country.
To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is now in a position to give the House information as to the recent peace negotiations with the Boer generals.
General Botha has informed Lord Kitchener by letter that he is not disposed to recommend the terms of peace, which Lord Kitchener was instructed to offer him, to the earnest consideration of his Government. He adds that his Government and his chief officers entirely agree with his views. I propose to lay the Papers connected with the negotiations on the Table to-night.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what were the terms offered?
The hon. Member will find them in the Papers which I propose to lay.
Hospitals Commission—Payments To Commissioners
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he can state the amount of salary paid respectively to members of the Hospital Commission in addition to the amount allowed for personal expenses.
A sum of £1,250 was paid to each member of the Commission except the chairman.
Do we understand that he was unpaid?
New Army Pension Scheme
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can state when the pensions which the Government have promised and sketched the details of will be declared and paid to the widows and orphans of men who have perished in South Africa in the British ranks; and will the scheme apply to the widows and children of all men who have lost their lives in action, by accident, or in consequence of wounds or disease caused by service in the campaign.
The date will shortly be fixed by warrant. As regards the second paragraph, the scheme will apply to the widows and children of men on the married establishment—which includes mobilised Reservists, embodied Militiamen, Volunteers and Yeomen—who since October, 1899, have been killed in action, or died of wounds or injuries received, or of disease medically certified as contracted or commencing while on active service.
Warm Clothing For Returning Troops
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether be is aware that the private funds from which invalided soldiers returning home from South Africa have been supplied throughout the campaign with greatcoats and warm clothing are now exhausted, and that in consequence such soldiers are constantly returning without them; and whether he will undertake that such necessary clothing for the voyage will be supplied from Government sources.
The Clothing Regulations (paragraphs 425–430) fully pro vide for the issue of the necessary warm clothing for invalided soldiers. Under the orders of the general officer commanding at the port of embarkation general officers commanding Cape and Natal were instructed in June last to ensure compliance with these regulations. No reports have been received of men returning without proper warm clothing.
Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire how many invalided soldiers arrived by the "Simla" last week, and by the "Bavarian" a short time before, without any greatcoats?
I will certainly inquire.
Purchases Of Army Houses In Canada
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can explain why the agents of the Government, purchasing horses for the use of the Army in South Africa, have only purchased 3,738 in Canada as against 7,901 purchased in Australia, and"26,310 from the United States; and whether the Canadian Government have drawn the attention of His Majesty's Government to this matter.
The purchase of horses in Canada was limited by the shortness of the season and the approach of the Canadian winter, and the prices of the horses and cobs were much higher than those paid for similar animals obtained in the United States and in Australia. Some correspondence has passed respecting this matter with the Agent General for Canada.
Is there any chance of remount depots being established in Canada?
Yes, it is hoped to establish a remount depot in Canada. The whole subject is now under consideration.
Does Canada contribute anything towards the cost of the war?
[No answer was given.]
In what way does the Canadian winter prevent the purchase of the horses?
We cannot purchase horses in winter and send them on a tropical passage to South Africa.
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether be can state what period of training will be required for Yeomanry regiments this year: whether the date of coming out will be left to the discretion of colonels of respective regiments; whether training under canvas will be compulsory; and whether recruiting is to be practically unlimited up to a strength of 500 men per regiment.
As I have already explained to the House, an Army Order will shortly be published giving the necessary information.
Queen Victorias Funeral— Scottish Volunteers
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state how many Volunteers came to London from Scotland on the invitation of the War Office for the purpose of attending the ceremonies on the occasion of the Queen's funeral on '2nd February last; and will he say how much was paid for their travelling expenses, food, and accommodation.
The numbers of Volunteers from Scotland amounted to twenty-four officers and 800 men. It is not possible to state the figures required by the second paragraph without a detailed examination of the various accounts.
Volunteer Sergeant-Majors' Pay
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War will he explain why the sergeant-majors of consolidated battalions of Volunteers with more than six companies at headquarters receive only the same rate of pay and allowances as sergeant-majors in charge of outlying companies of administrative battalions; and whether he will consider the propriety of either granting to the former an increased rate of pay, or of granting them the same rank and pay as warrant officers sergeant-majors in the Militia.
Volunteer corps of six companies and upwards are entitled to a regimental acting sergeant-major, who is selected from the permanent staff by the commanding officer of the corps and receives the pay of his rank and 6d. a day extra. This non-commissioned officer, whether in a consolidated or scattered battalion, is responsible for the duties of regimental sergeant-major, and his work is not confined to the particular company or companies at headquarters where he may be stationed. There is, accordingly, no reason for the differentiation of pay suggested.
Mark Iv Bullets Rejected
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state how many Mark IV. bullets have been broken up since the commencement of the South African campaign; and in what respect they were useless.
The number of Mark IV. bullets broken up since the commencement of the war is about four and a half millions. Cartridges made with these bullets were. Tinder certain conditions, found to strip in the barrel. It was therefore undesirable to make these bullets up into cartridges.
Medical Arrangements At Shoeburyness
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that no provision exists in cases of illness among officers at Shoeburyness, there being no hospital, no arrangement for nurses, and not even a single member of the Army Medical Corps: whether he is aware that this week a young officer who had served in South Africa was taken ill with double pleurisy which resulted in double pneumonia, that he was left in his own quarters, where he died, and had it not been for his parents would have had no nurse or medical appliances; that recently in consequence of an officer developing scarlet fever, the whole batch of officers in that officer's quarter had to be put under tents; and whether immediate steps will be taken to provide a suitable hospital, nurses, and appliances at Shoeburyness for officers when taken ill there.
It has not been found possible to provide accommodation for hospital wards for officers at home stations except at Netley and Woolwich, and in special cases at Aldershot. Officers, except when suffering from wounds or illness from active service, are only admitted to these hospitals on the recommendation of a medical board. At Shoeburyness there are two medical officers. For the ease of pneumonia one. day and one night nurse were engaged from the beginning by the medical officer and remained to the last. As regards the case of scarlet fever some young officers residing in the same corridor were very properly removed. It does not appear a hardship that they were placed under canvas.
Can the right hon. Gentleman undertake that some accommodation should be provided for these severe cases, so that an officer need not die without any attention, as this young officer did?
The officer in question was attended by a proper medical officer, and by a day nurse and a night nurse, and I do not admit that in the officers' quarters proper attention is not given to officers who are ill.
Soldiers' Pensions—Case Of Patrick Guinan
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that an application for an increase of pension was received by the Secretary, Royal Hospital, Chelsea, on 26th ultimo, from Patrick Guinan, pensioner of the 55th Regiment of Foot, who had eleven years service from 1858 to 1869, of which nine years were in Africa and India; and, seeing that this man was discharged on account of debility from climatic causes, received a good conduct badge, is now in receipt of only 4d. per diem pension, and is more than sixty years of age and unable to work, whether his case will be considered with a view to an increase of his pension.
The application was received at Chelsea and the applicant was informed that he was receiving the full amount of pension to which he was entitled under the regulations. The man was discharged as unfit for further service owing to melancholia and this disease was not due to service, but was developed by intemperance. The ease is not one for further consideration.
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can state the number and description of ships, now in course of construction for His Majesty's Navy, for which Belleville boilers will be retained on the ground that the work is so far advanced that any alteration of type of boiler would delay the completion of the ships; can he explain why this type of boiler is to be retained when the Boiler Committee cannot recommend it as the best adapted to the requirements of His Majesty's Navy, and definitely advise that in future ships these boilers be not fitted in any case; and will he give the total number of ships fitted with Belleville boilers, with number of engineers, artificers, and stokers on board of these ships.
The question of what ships now in course of construction and designed to receive Belleville boilers can be furnished with other types of boilers without delay is under the careful consideration of the Admiralty, but the necessary inquiries have not yet been completed. It is not proposed to retain the Belleville boiler in ships in which other boilers of a better type can be inserted without involving serious delay. The total number of ships fitted with Belleville boilers is as follows: Twenty-six vessels in commission or ready? for commissioning, and forty in the hands of the makers. The seagoing complements of the former class are:—120 chief or other engineer officers, 263 artificers, 2,995 stoker ratings. The seagoing complements of the other ships under construction are:—246 chief or other engineer officers, 533 artificers, 6,400 stoker ratings.
Royal Marines—Pension Regulations
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that non-commissioned officers and men of the Army are allowed to continue serving after completing twenty-one years service, and thereby increasing their pensions, the Admiralty are prepared to extend the same privilege to the Royal Marines, by adopting the principle laid down in the Royal Warrant (Army) Article 1164, so as to place them on an equal footing with the Army in respect to pension.
The question referred to by the hon. Member is at present under the consideration of the Admiralty, and the existing Regulations are being reviewed, but no decision has yet been arrived at.
China—Anolo-Russian Dispute At Tientsin
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give the House any information in regard to the reported seizure by Russia of land at Tientsin which is mortgaged to British bondholders.
I have little to add to my answer of the 15th March on this subject,* pending a settlement of the immediate difference by the military authorities on the spot. Sentries on both sides remain in their previous positions, with strict orders not to assume the aggressive. No disturbance is anticipated.
May I ask whether negotiations are proceeding, between the British and the Russian Governments with regard to this matter?.
I must ask for notice of that question.
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give the House the correct version of the incident arising from the dispute as to the railway siding at Tientsin, and especially whether the British officer in command has received, instructions from His Ma-
jesty's Government, or from His Majesty's Minister at Peking, not to resist the seizure by Russian troops of the land necessary for the railway siding.* See page 72.
No instructions of the character suggested have been issued.
Anglo-German Agreement And Manchuria
On behalf of the hon. Member for North Roscommon, I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Anglo-German Agreement about China applies to Manchuria.
The first clause of the Anglo-German Agreement expresses the agreement of the two Powers to observe freedom of trade on the ports in the rivers and littoral of China wherever they can exercise influence. The second clause states that they will not make use of the present complication to obtain for themselves any territorial advantages in Chinese dominions, and will direct their policy towards maintaining undiminished the territorial condition of the Chinese Empire. This provision is without qualification.
Japan And China — Fo-Kien
On behalf of the hon. Member for North Roscommon, I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information to the effect that Japan has notified the Chinese Government that if the Manchurian Convention is signed Japan will insist on establishing a protectorate over the province of Fo-Kien.
Canton And Han-Kau Railway Concession
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the concession for the construction of a railway from Canton to Hankau, which had been obtained by an American syndicate, has been transferred by them to the Belgian syndicate which already held the concession for a railway from Peking to Hankau.
We are informed that the concession has not been transferred, and is still owned by the American company, but that the stock holders of the company have disposed of part of their holdings to the Belgian syndicate.
Alleged Turkish Excesses In Macedonia
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what information His Majesty's Government have as to the correctness or otherwise of the reports that Turkish soldiery have been committing excesses at the town of Uscub, in Macedonia, and the neighbourhood thereof; and what is the nearest place to this district at which a British Consul is stationed.
According to information received from His Majesty's Vice-Consul at Uscub, an encounter is reported to have taken place in January last at Ishtib, which is situated about forty-five miles to the south-east of Uscub, between Turkish troops and certain Bulgarians, who had barricaded themselves in a house to evade a search for arms, which was being conducted by the Turkish authorities. One gendarme and two Bulgarians are said to have lost their lives. Fifteen Bulgarians were subsequently arrested at the same place, and have been since sent to Uscub. We have no evidence which justifies us in describing these proceedings as excesses committed by the Turkish soldiery. A British Vice-Consul is permanently stationed at Uscub.
Bilbao Harbour—Loss Of The "Avlona"
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the recent loss of the steamship "Avlona," of Glasgow, owing to the insufficient lighting of the entrance to Bilbao Harbour; and will he consider the expediency of calling the attention of the Spanish authorities to the subject.
The answer to the first paragraph of the question is in the affirmative. The question of calling the attention of the Spanish authorities to the subject is under consideration.
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will be able to I introduce his promised measure dealing with intemperance before Easter; and whether it will apply to the whole of the United Kingdom.
I am afraid that the answer to the first paragraph must be in the negative. As regards the second, I do not think that one Bill can deal with the whole of the United Kingdom. The Scotch and Irish licensing laws differ considerably from the English.
Child Drunkenness In Great Britain And Ireland
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he can state the number of children between the ages of twelve and sixteen years of age who were arrested for drunkenness in England and Wales during the years 1899 and 1900.
I can only give the number of arrests which resulted in convictions—namely, in 1899, seventeen; twelve boys and five girls. The figures for 1900 are not yet complete.
I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, as representing the Secretary for Scotland, if he can state the number of children between the ages of twelve and sixteen years of age arrested for drunkenness in Scotland during the year 1900.
I regret to say that I am informed by the Prison Commissioners for Scotland that it is not possible to give the hon. Member the information he desires without reference to the police authorities, but if he will renew his question in the course of ten days I shall undertake to let him have it.
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state the number of children between the ages of twelve and sixteen years of age arrested for drunkenness in Ireland during the year 1900.
There were eight children within the limits of age mentioned convicted of drunkenness in Ireland in 1900. I am not aware how many arrests were made in that period; if my hon. friend desires information on that point it will be necessary to make local inquiries throughout Ireland, and this would occupy some little time.
Is there any evidence as to the houses at which the children got the drink?
[No answer was returned.]
How many were boys and how many girls?
I cannot say.
Justices And The Oath Of Allegiance
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether there is any necessity for justices of the peace, who are also Members of Parliament and have as such already taken the Oath of Allegiance to His Majesty the King, to again take this Oath at quarter sessions before acting as justices of the peace.
I have already stated that I am advised that there is no necessity for magistrates to take any oath afresh in order to be able to continue to exercise their functions.
Convict Bennett—Letters To The Press
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to a letter from the murderer Bennett, published in an evening newspaper of 18th March: whether convicted felons are allowed to communicate with the press, either directly or indirectly; and whether he will take steps to ensure that in future no prisoner, either before trial or after conviction, shall be able to communicate with the press.
Convicted prisoners are not allowed to communicate directly with the press, and such permission was in this case refused. It is impossible to prevent indirect communication.
Royal Naval Reserve—Enrolment Of Boys From Merchant Ships
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state the number of boy sailors in merchant ships now enrolled in the Royal Naval Reserve under Section 6 of the Mercantile Marine Fund Act, 1898; what amount in respect of light dues has been refunded to the owners of ships carrying boy sailors since the said Act came into force; and under what head of charge is this item brought in the Estimates.
The number of boy sailors enrolled in the Royal Naval Reserve from the 1st April, 1899, to the l0th instant was 730. The amount paid to owners of ships as rebate of light dues in respect of boys carried during the year from 1st April, 1899, to 31st March, 1900. was £621 8s. 10d. Payment for the current year is not due until the 31st instant. This item is provided for in the Naval Estimates Vote 7 (Royal Naval Reserve) sub-head (a).
Foot-And-Mouth Disease Regulations At Stowmarket
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether, having regard to the immunity from foot-and-mouth, disease enjoyed by the petty sessional division of Stow-market, he will remove the restrictions now weighing so heavily upon the farmers residing in that division.
An Order was made on the 16th instant, altering the boundaries of the Suffolk Foot-and-Mouth Disease Scheduled District, which will no longer comprise the petty sessional division of Stow market. The Order comes into operation to-morrow.
Communication Between Lighthouses And Shore
I beg-to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is yet in a position to carry into effect the provision of Clause 2 (5) of the Mercantile Marine Fund Act, 1898, which requires that communications between lighthouses and the shore shall, as far as possible, be available for private messages at reasonable charges; whether the Departmental Committee appointed at the beginning of last year to consider this subject has made any report or recommendation; and whether, in the interest of passengers, sailors, shipowners, merchants, and underwriters he can hold out any hope of the establishment. in the near future, of reporting stations for passing vessels at central points on the more important trade routes such as the Fastnet, Tuskar. the Smalls, and Inistrahul.
My right hon. friend regrets that he is not in a position to give a definite reply to my hon. friend's question. The subject of making electrical communication with lighthouses available for private messages has presented and still presents many serious difficulties which are engaging the attention of the Departments concerned. My hon. friend may rest assured that the matter is not being lost sight of.
Great Eastern Railway— Preferential Rates For Foreign Produce
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he will cause inquiries to be made by the Railway Department of the Board of Trade of the Great Eastern Railway Company respecting the through rates for foreign produce; and whether he will cause to be examined the rate book at Harwich which shows the charges for land carriage of foreign and native produce, and communicate to the House the results of these inquiries.
No, Sir; my right hon. friend cannot make such an inquiry as that suggested. If persons are aggrieved by preferential rates for foreign goods they should adopt their legal remedy. The hon. Member is no doubt aware of Section 27 of the Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1888.
Education—Applications For Recognition Under The Higher Elementary Minute
I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education whether he can give the number of school departments on account of which application has been made to the Board of Education for recognition under the Higher Elementary Minute, and the number of such applications granted up to date.
Leaving out the application of the London School Board, which was for seventy-nine schools in block, some twenty-four applications have been received for the recognition of specific schools. Recognition has practically been given to a dozen schools, in some cases condi- tionally.
Board Schools In Stepney
I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education whether, seeing that the site scheduled by the School Board in Arbour Square, Stepney, is directly opposite to the St. Thomas's Voluntary School, in which a number of places are available, he can explain why it has been decided to build a board school and destroy house Property on this spot.
So far as I am aware, it has not been decided to build a board school there.
Vacant School Places In Stepney
I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education whether he can give the number of board and voluntary schools in the school areas H, L, J, and K of the Tower Hamlets, and the number of school places at present required in each of these areas.
In Block H there are three board schools and one voluntary school, and a deficiency of 997 places; in Block L, two board schools and three voluntary schools, and a deficiency of 448 places; in Block 1, two board schools and two voluntary schools, and a deficiency of 102 places; and in Block K, one board school and one voluntary school, and no deficiency of school places.
New Code—Training College Examinations
I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education whether, inasmuch as a first class in a training college is awarded only on the aggregate of marks obtained after examination in a very wide series of subjects, and a large number of subjects in the training college; curriculum are not essential for teachers in primary elementary schools; and seeing that many students of superior quality as teachers are lost to the profession because, though well qualified in essentials for work in a primary elementary school, they have not secured sufficient marks in the non-essentials to make up a first class aggregate, necessary for good appointment, he would consider the propriety of so far modifying the new Code as to make a first class obtainable by proficiency in those subjects, and those only, which are essential to teachers in primary schools, at same time giving further certificates for proficiency in other subjects as may seem desirable.
The Board of Education are now engaged in considering measures to encourage a variety of courses of instruction in different training colleges. Such measures would necessarily involve a corresponding variety in the scheme of examinations.
Coinage Of Crown Pieces
I beg to ask Mr. Chan- cellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider the propriety of refraining from coining five shilling pieces in the new silver coinage.
I am requested by my right hon. friend to state that, as at present advised, he does not think it advisable to discontinue the coinage of five shilling pieces.
Road Construction In The Island Of Mull
I beg to ask the Lord Advocate if he can explain why the Congested Districts Board of Scotland gave grants of £.375 and £113 towards the construction of two roads in the Island of Mull, seeing that these roads only lead to two farms and are of no use to the general public.
I am informed by the Congested Districts Board that the grants to the two roads referred to by the hon. Member were given on the recommendation of the District Committee as laid before the Board by the County Council. Both these bodies had an opportunity of considering the objections which were made to one of the roads, but adhered to their recommendations. The matter was then referred for the advice of the consulting engineer, who reported favourably, considering that the roads might form a useful part eventually of an extended scheme, and, further, give facilities for the erection of fishermen's holdings. In the circumstances, the Secretary for Scotland cannot accept the hon. Member's statement that the roads in question are of no use to the general public.
Kilmarnock Sheriff Court— Absent Juryman
I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether his attention has been drawn to the case of Samuel Reid, a working mason, residing at Stevenston, Ayrshire, who was cited to attend the sheriff' court at Kilmarnock on 27th July last, and failed to attend: whether he is aware that the notice was not served owing to his having been absent from home in the course of his employment, leaving his house shut up; and as he is not a proprietor, and has no property, and his name does not appear in any roll save as a tenant, whether he is eligible as a juror; and whether, under the circumstances, the Lord Advocate can see his way to remit the fine of £6 1s. 1d. imposed, as Samuel Reid has a family of nine children, is in delicate health, and is dependent upon his wages.
I have made full inquiry into the matter brought to my notice by my hon. friend. I find it to be the fact that Samuel Reid's name is on the jury list, and that it had been placed there erroneously, as he is not qualified to act. But I also find that Reid was duly summoned and personally received the notice in ample time to have attended. It was his duty to attend; and, at least, it would have been proper for him to send explanations at the time of his failure to attend, which he did not do. He has not been treated unjustly. But in view of the man's circumstances as stated by my hon. friend, and of the fact that he was not qualified to act as a juror, I hope that an approach to Exchequer for the remission of the fine may be successful.
Scottish Congested Districts— Crofter Holdings
I beg to ask the Lord Advocate if ho will state what balance was in hand on the 28th February last out of the money granted by Parliament for the purposes of the Congested Districts Board (Scotland); and will he say how much of the grant has been expended in the acquisition of land suitable for crofters and the extension of existing crofters' holdings.
I have already informed the hon. Member that particulars such as he asks for in this question will be found in the forthcoming Annual Report of the Congested Districts Board.
Holdings In The Island Of Lewis
I beg to ask the Lord Advocate if he will state the acreage of lands suitable for new holdings recently secured by the Congested Districts Board at Aignish, Gross, and Croir, Island of Lewis.
I am informed that no purchases have been as yet concluded in these districts.
Did the right hon. Gentleman say only yesterday that purchases had been made?
No; yesterday's question was whether efforts were being made to effect purchases. I answered that in the affirmative.
Road Construction In Scottish Congested Areas
I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland if it is the practice of the Congested Districts Board of Scotland to accept, without inquiry, the decision arrived at by the district committees in regard to outlay for the construction of roads in the congested area.
Report Of The Congested Districts (Scotland) Rill
I beg to ask the Lord Advocate if arrangements will be made for the Report of the Congested Districts Board (Scotland) to be in the hands of Members before the House goes into Committee of Supply on Civil Service Estimates.
The Third Report of the Congested Districts Board for Scotland will be issued as soon as possible after the 31st instant, and I will arrange that the Secretary for Scotland Vote will not be taken until it is in the hands of Members.
Will the right hon. Gentleman use his influence with the First Lord of the Treasury that this Vote shall not be closured?
[No answer was given.]
Salaries Of Irish National School Teachers
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that principal teachers in Irish national schools were, before 1st April, 1900, in consequence of insufficient attendance, receiving salaries prescribed for classes lower than those to which they respectively belonged; whether it is these salaries that have been taken into account in fixing the permanent salaries of such teachers; and, if so, whether it is the intention of the Commissioners to give every such teacher the full financial benefit of his classification, should the average attendance rise to prescribed standard, or should he be appointed to another school having an average attendance up to the required standard.
Before the 1st April, 1900, some teachers, owing to insufficient attendance at the schools, were receiving salaries lower than those attaching to the classes in which they were included, and in fixing the provisional salaries of such teachers the actual payments made to them were taken into account. The question of the future payment of such teachers is engaging the consideration of the Commissioners, who are in correspondence with the Treasury on the subject.
Irish National School Teachers Holidays
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, in view of the fact that in the course of last year the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland received a memorial, signed by the Roman Catholic Bishop of Cloyne and by the Roman Catholic clergymen who are managers of schools, and also from other bodies of clergymen who are managers all over Ireland, respecting the curtailment of the annual vacations to national teachers, whether he can state what action has been taken by the Commissioners thereon, and whether they intend to accede to the request of men. who have an interest in Irish education, and are intimately acquainted with its working.
I have referred this question to the Commissioners of, National Education, and have received from them a reply as follows: Several memorials, signed by managers of National Schools with respect to the new rule as to vacations were submitted to the Board during the past year, and in view of the fact that managers seemed to misunderstand the rule, an explanatory circular was prepared by order of the Commissioners and issued at Christmas last. No further action seemed to be required.
Irish National Education Office —Vacancies For Clerks
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state when the seven vacancies in second division clerkships in Irish National Education Office will be filled up; and whether some members of the abstracter, assistant clerks, class will be promoted to these vacancies, as they have complied with Treasury regulations by serving six years as abstracters.
A general re-organisation of different departments of the Education Office is in progress, and pending the completion, of this work it is proposed that no permanent appointments be made to fill the vacancies which now exist.
Irish Took Law Officers' Superannuations
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, considering the magnitude of the pension scheme contained in the Poor Law Superannuation (Ireland) Bill, now standing on the Order Book, he will take steps to inform himself, before the Second Reading, of the probable charge on local rates should the Bill become law, having regard to the operation of a similar pension scheme in England; and whether he will obtain an actuarial report from Mr. Finlaison. actuary of the National Debt Commissioners, or other expert as to the probable annual burden on the rates, in like manner as was done in 1890 when the Police Superannuation (Scotland) Bill was before Parliament.
I am informed that there would be considerable difficulty in ascertaining with any degree of accuracy the charge on local rates should; this Bill become law; I am making further inquiry into the matter, however. In answer to the second paragraph, I am not aware of the circumstances, under which Mr. Finlaison was employed, as alleged.
When will the right hon. Gentleman be in a position to give further information?
I am inquiring into the matter, and will make a further-statement before the Bill is taken.
County Down Constabulary
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, with reference to recent promotions to the position of acting sergeants in county Down, whether he will make personal inquiry I into the statement that the promotions have been made on their merits; and whether he will ask for a detailed explanation of the appointment of six non- Roman Catholics to one Roman Catholic in a county where the Roman Catholic constables outnumber those of all other denominations.
I have made personal inquiry and have received the assurance of the Inspector General that promotions in the constabulary in Down, as elsewhere, are strictly governed, not by considerations of religion, but of merit. I may mention that an examination of the records show that the religions of men serving in the force throughout Ireland on the 1st January last were as follows:—Head constables: Roman Catholics 170, Protestants 81; sergeants:: Roman Catholics 1.334, Protestants 535; acting sergeants: Roman Catholics 305, Protestants 118; constables: Roman Catholics 6.230, Protestants 2,147.
I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for the trouble he has taken. Will he kindly further ascertain why there has been only one Roman Catholic promotion as against six Protestants in this county?
I imagine it was because there were six Protestants fit and only one Roman Catholic.
Commissions Of Assize—Exclusion Of Irish Mayors
I beg to ask Mr. Attorney General for Ireland whether, seeing that chairmen of County and district councils in Ireland are, pursuant to statute, included in the commissions of the peace under which complaints brought by their respective councils are tried at petty sessions, he will follow this statutory precedent and reconsider his decision to exclude certain mayors of county boroughs from the commissions of assize on the ground only that the councils of those boroughs may be litigants under such commissions.
If the hon. Member will refer to my detailed answer to a question on this subject put to me by the hon. Member for East Clare on the 20th February of last year,* he will see that there is no real analogy between the cases he mentions in his question. The answer to the question now put is, therefore, in the negative.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the same principle applies to both, and that the difference is only one of degree?
I am aware, on the contrary, that it does not apply.
Summary Jurisdiction—Case Of Mr Halpin
I beg to ask Mr. Attorney General for Ireland whether the Proceedings against Mr. Halpin, councillor for Clare, will be abandoned, as in the case of similar proceedings against Messrs. Lynch and M'Inerney.
Yes, Sir. I hope that the hon. Members opposite will give facilities to pass the Bill which is intended to assimilate the law of England and Ireland in this respect.
* See The Parliamentary Debates [Fourth Series], Vol. lxxix., page 587.
When will the Bill be brought in?
Land Purchase In County Wexford
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if, in view of the circumstance that land purchase is now stopped in county Wexford, to the inconvenience of a number of tenants who have arranged for the purchase of their holdings, he will expedite the inquiry which has been ordered to be held; and if he will state when he will be in a position to make a statement upon this subject, and also as to the intentions of the Government in regard to land purchase in Ireland generally.
The answer to the first paragraph is in the affirmative. The inquiry is being pressed with all possible despatch. In reply to the second paragraph, I must refer the hon. Member to the Leader of the House.
Valuations At Banteer, County Cork
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the case of a trader in Banteer, county Cork, the valuation of whose premises has been raised from £1 10s. to £10; whether he can say upon what principle the Commissioners of Valuation proceed in regard to valuation where the tenant makes improvements at his own expense; and was the local district council or poor law board consulted in regard to valuation of the premises; and, if not, can he say why this was not done.
The Commissioner of Valuation reports that prior to 1898 the trader referred to, presumably Mr. J. Sheehan, owned two small cottages in Banteer valued at fifteen shillings each. These were replaced by a substantial new house which was valued in that year at £10. If Mr. Sheehan considered this valuation excessive he could have appealed. The Valuation Acts do not require the commissioner to consult the local rating authorities.
Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to apply the English system of valuation to Ireland?
I have said more than once that there is no intention to interfere with the Irish system.
The Irish Estimates
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he can say when the Vote for the Local Government Board for Ireland will be taken, and if the Government will provide an early opportunity for discussing the case of the Wexford County Council v. The Local Government Board.
Of course, I shall be glad to take the Irish Estimates on any day that is most convenient to the Irish Members; but I may observe that before Easter there will be two opportunities at least on which it would be legitimate to raise the important question of "Wexford County Council v. The Local Government Board." Those occasions will be the Second and Third Readings of the Appropriation Bill.
The Coronation Oath
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, in view of the fact that there is no Church established by law in Ireland, the language of the Coronation Oath will also be referred to the Committee about to be appointed to consider that part of the King's Accession Oath offensive to Roman Catholics.
I am sorry to say I have not been able to refer to the
|Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.||Hartley, George C. T.||Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)|
|Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel||Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin||Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm|
|Aird, Sir John||Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol||Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r|
|Allhusen, Augustus Hy. Eden||Bentinck, Lord Henry C.||Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry|
|Allsopp, Hon. George||Bignold, Arthur||Chapman, Edward|
|Archdale, Edward Mervyn||Blundell, Colonel Henry||Churchill, Winston Spencer|
|Arkwright, John Stanhope||Boscawen, Arthur Griffith||Cochrane, Hn. Thomas H.A.E.|
|Arnold-Eorster, Hugh O.||Boulnois, Edmund||Cohen, Benjamin Louis|
|Arrol, Sir William||Bowles, Capt. H. E. (Middlesex)||Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready|
|Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis||Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John||Colston, C. E. H. Athole|
|Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John||Brookfield, Colonel Montagu||Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)|
|Bailey, James (Walworth)||Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.||Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)|
|Bain, Colonel James Robert||Burdett-Coutts, W.||Cranborne, Viscount|
|Baird, John George Alexander||Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H.||Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)|
|Baldwin, Alfred||Cavendish, R. F (N. Lancs.)||Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)|
|Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r||Cavendish, Y.C. W.(Derbysh.)||Cubitt, Hon. Henry|
Coronation Oath, but, if my memory serves me lightly, there is nothing offensive to Roman Catholics in the Oath, though there does occur in the Oath a phrase that the King will uphold the Church as established by law in Ireland, The Oath, I think, ought to be referred to the Committee, as that phrase seems somewhat out of place.
Message From The Lords
PRESENCE OF THE SOVEREIGN IN PARLIAMENT—That they concur with the Commons in their Resolution, "That it is expedient that a Select Committee be appointed to join with a Committee of the Lords to consider the accommodation available in the House of Lords when the Sovereign is personally present in Parliament, and the advisability of substituting Westminster Hall on such an occasion for the House of Lords," as desired by this House.
Cremation Bill Lords
Read the first time; to be read a second time upon Friday, and to be printed. [Bill 101.]
Sittings Of The House (Exemption From The Standing Order)
Motion made, and Question put, "That the Business of Supply, if under consideration at Twelve o'clock this night, be not interrupted under the Standing-Order, Sittings of the House."—( Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
The House divided:—Ayes, 195; Noes, 145. (Division List No. 70.)
|Dalkeith, Earl of||Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop||Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter|
|Dalrymple, Sir Charles||Laurie, Lieut.-General||Royds, Clement Molyneux|
|Dickson, Charles Scott||Law, Andrew Bonar||Russell, T. W.|
|Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-||Lawrence, William F.||Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-|
|Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield||Lawson, John Grant||Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander|
|Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-||Leeky, Rt. Hn. Wm. Edw. H.||Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse|
|Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin||Lee, Arthur H (Hants, Fareham||Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert|
|Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart||Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage||Seely, Charles Hilton(Lincoln)|
|Elliot, Hn. A. Ralph Douglas||Leveson-Gower. Fredk. N. S.||Sharpe, William Edward T.|
|Faber, George Denison||Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.||Shaw- Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew|
|Fardell, Sir T. George||Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.||Simeon, Sir Barrington|
|Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward||Lonsdale, John Brownlee||Sinclair, Louis (Romford)|
|Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J. (Manch.||Lowe, Francis William||Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)|
|Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst||Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)||Smith, H. C (N'th'mb., Tyneside|
|Fisher, William Hayes||Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth||Smith, James P. (Lanark.)|
|FitzGerald, Sir RobertPenrose-||Macartney, Rt Hn W.G. Ellison||Smith, Hon.W. F. D. (Strand)|
|Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon||Macdona, John Gumming||Spear, John Ward|
|Fletcher, Sir Henry||Maconochie, A. W.||Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk|
|Flower, Ernest||M 'Arthur, Chas. (Liverpool)||Stanley, Lord (Bancs.)|
|Garfit, William||M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb.,W.)||Stewart, Sir M. J. M' Taggart|
|(Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)||M'Killop, James(Stirlingshire)||Stock, James Henry|
|Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.||Majendie, James A. H.||Stone, Sir Benjamin|
|Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin&Nairn)||Malcolm, Ian||Stroyan, John|
|Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts||Manners, Lord Cecil||Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier|
|Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon||Maxwell, W. J. H(Dumfriessh.||Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)|
|Goulding, Edward Alfred||Milward, Colonel Victor||Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'dUniv|
|Graham, Henry Robert||Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)||Thorburn, Sir Walter|
|Greene, Sir E W (BrySEdm'nds||More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire)||Thornton, Percy M.|
|Greene, W.Raymond-(Cambs.)||Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'tsh.||Tollemache, Henry James|
|Greville, Hon. Ronald||Morrell, George Herbert||Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray|
|Hain, Edward||Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.||Tritton, Charles Ernest|
|Halsey, Thomas Frederick||Morton, Arthur H.A. (Deptford||Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward|
|Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x||Mount, William Arthur||Valentia, Viscount|
|Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry||Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.||Walker, Col. William Hall|
|Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robt. Wm.||Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute||Warr, Augustus Frederick|
|Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf 'd||Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)||Wason, John C. (Orkney)|
|Haslett, Sir James Horner||Myers, William Henry||Welby, Lt-Col A.C.E. (Taunt'n|
|Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley)||Nicholson, William Graham||Wharton, Rt. Hon. John L.|
|Heath, J. (Staffords, N. W.)||Nicol, Donald Ninian||Whitmore, Charles Algernon|
|Helder, Augustus||O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens||Williams, Rt Hn J. Powell-(Bir.|
|Hope, J. F.(Sheff 'ld,Brightsde.||Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay||Wilson, John (Glasgow)|
|Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry||Barker, Gilbert||Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh., N.|
|Howard, Capt. J. (Kent, Fav'rsh||Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward||Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.)|
|Hozier,Hon. JamesHenryCecil||Purvis, Robert||Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R (Bath)|
|Hudson, George Bickersteth||Rankin, Sir James||Wolff; Gustav Wilhelm|
|Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)||Reid, James (Geeenock)||Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-|
|Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick||Renshaw, Charles Bine||Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George|
|Johnston, William (Belfast)||Rentoul, James Alexander||TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.|
|Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.||Ridley, Hon. M. W (Stalybridge|
|Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh||Rolleston, Sir John F. L.|
|Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.)||Caldwell, James||Ellis, John Edward|
|Allan, William (Gateshead)||Cameron, Robert||Emmott, Alfred|
|Allen, C. P. (Glouc., Stroud)||Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)||Farquharson, Dr. Robert|
|Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herb. Henry||Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H||Farrell, James Patrick|
|Atherley-Jones, L.||Carew, James Laurence||Fenwick, Charles|
|Austin, Sir John||Causton, Richard Knight||Ffrench, Peter|
|Barry, E. (Cork, S.)||Cawley, Frederick||Field, William|
|Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)||Clancy, John Joseph||Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond|
|Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.||Colville John||Flynn, James Christopher|
|Bell, Richard||Condon, Thomas Joseph||Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)|
|Bigwood, James||Craig, Robert Hunter||Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry|
|Blake, Edward||Crombie, John William||Fuller, J. M. F.|
|Boyle, James||Daly, James||Furness, Sir Christopher|
|Brand, Hon. Arthur G.||Dalziel, James Henry||Gilhooly, James|
|Brigg, John||Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan||Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbt. John|
|Broadhurst, Henry||Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)||Goddard, Daniel Ford|
|Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson||Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles||Grant, Corrie|
|Burke, E. Haviland-||Doogan, P. C.||Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton|
|Burt, Thomas||Duffy, Wm. J.||Hammond, John|
|Buxton, Sydney Charles||Duncan, James H.||Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William|
|Caine, William Sproston||Elibank, Master of||Harwood, George|
|Hayden, John Patrick||M'Laren, Charles Benjamin||Soames, Arthur Wellesley|
|Heaton, John Henniker||Markham, Arthur Basil||Soares, Ernest J.|
|Hemphill, lit. Hn. Charles H.||Mellor, Rt. Hon. J. William||Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R. (North'nts|
|Holland, William Henry||Mooney, John J.||Stevenson, Francis S.|
|Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.||Murphy, J.||Strachey, Edward|
|Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)||Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.||Sullivan, Donal|
|Jacoby, James Alfred||Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)||Taylor, Theodore Cooke|
|Joicey, Sir James||O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)||Thomas, J. A. (Gl'm'rg'n,Gower|
|Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.||O'Brien, Kendal (Tipper ryMid||Thompson, E. C. (Monaghan, N.|
|Jordan, Jeremiah||O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)||Tomkinson, James|
|Joyce, Michael||O'Connor, James (Wicklow,W.||Trevelyan, Charles Philips|
|Kennedy, Patrick James||O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)||Tally, Jasper|
|Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth||O'Dowd, John||Vinceent Col. Sir CEH (Sh'ffield)|
|Kitson, Sir James||O'Kelly, James(Rosse'mm'nN.||Wallace, Robert|
|Labouchere, Henry||O'Shaughnessy, P. J.||Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)|
|Lambert, George||O'Shee, James John||Warner, ThomasCourtenay T.|
|Leamy, Edmund||Perks, Robert William||Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan|
|Leng, Sir John||Price, Robert, John||Weir, James Galloway|
|Levy, Maurice||Reddy, M.||White, George (Norfolk)|
|Lewis, John Herbert||Redmond, John E. (Waterford)||White, Luke (York, E. R.)|
|Lloyd-George, David||Redmond, William (Clare)||Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)|
|Lough, Thomas||Rickett, J. Compton||Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)|
|Lowther, Rt. Hn. James(Kent)||Roche, John||Wodehouse, Hon. A. (Essex)|
|Lundon, W.||Roe, Sir Thomas||Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)|
|Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.||Schwann, Charles E.||Yoxall, James Henry|
|M'Cann, James||Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)|
TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
|M'Kenna, Reginald||Shipman, Dr. John G.||Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.|
|M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)||Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire)|
Military Instruction (Schools And Cadets)
Bill to provide for the regulation of Military Instruction in Schools and in Cadet Corps and Companies and Cadet Battalions, ordered to be brought in by Sir John Kennaway, Mr. Griffith-Bos-cawen, Mr. Cubitt, Sir Henry Fletcher, Mr. Lambert, Mr. W. F. D. Smith, and Colonel Williams.
Military Instruction (Schools And Cadets) Bill
"To provide for the regulation of Military Instruction in Schools and in Cadet Corps and Companies and Cadet Battalions," presented, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Wednesday, 1st May, and to be printed. [Bill 102.]
Housing Of The Working Classes
Bill to make further provisions for the Housing of the Working Classes, ordered to be brought in by Dr. Macnamara. Mr. John Burns, Captain Norton, Dr. Shipman, Mr. George White, Mr. Samuel, and Mr. Bell.
Housing Of The Working Classes Bill
"To make further provision for the Housing of the Working Classes," presented, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Thursday.] 8th April, and to be printed. [Bill 103.]
Crofters' Holdings (Scotland)
Bill to amend the Crofters' Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1886, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Cathcart Wason, Mr. Bignold, Mr. John Dewar, Mr. Leveson-Gower, Mr. Harmsworth, Mr. Weir, and Mr. Gordon.
Crofters' Holdings (Scotland) Bill
"To amend the Crofters' Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1886," presented, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Wednesday, 17th April, and to be printed. [Bill 104.]
Sites Values (London) Rating
Bill to provide for the rating of Sites Values in London, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Sydney Buxton, Mr. Moulton, Mr. John Burns, Mr. E.J. C. Morton, and Mr. Lough.
Sites Values (London) Rating Bill
"To provide for the rating of Sites Values in London,'' presented, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Wednesday, 8th May, and to be printed. [Bill 105.)
Bill for the better protection of British subjects who intermarry with Foreigners in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Macdona, Mr. Talbot, Mr. Rothschild, Sir Joseph Dimsdale, Mr. Churchill, Lord Hugh Cecil, Captain Nolan, Mr. T. P. O'Connor. Dr. Farqu-harson, Mr. Samuel Evans, Mr. E. J. C. Morton, and Mr. Schwann.
Foreigners' Marriages Bill
"For the better protection of British subjects who intermarry with Foreigners in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland," presented, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 106]
Registration Of Clubs
Bill to provide for the Registration of Clubs, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Caine, Mr. Eugene Wason, Mr. Hain, Mr. Lloyd-George, Mr. Schwann, and Mr. Samuel Young.
Registration Of Clubs Bill
"To provide for the Registration of Clubs," presented, and road the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday, 24th June, and to be printed. [Bill 107.]
Summary Jurisdiction (Ireland)
Bill to make provision with respect to entering into recognisances and finding-sureties in certain cases in Ireland, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Attorney General for Ireland and Mr. Wyndham.
Summary Jurisdiction (Ireland) Bill
"To make provision with respect to entering into recognisances and finding sureties in certain cases in Ireland," presented, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 108.]
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER, Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]
Civil Services And Revenue Departments Revised Supplementary Estimate, 1900–1901
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a Supplementary sum, not ex- ceeding £893,316, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, for the following Civil Services, and Revenue Departments, namely:—
|Vote 3.||Colonial Services||212,300|
|Vote 2.||British Protectorates in Uganda, etc.||200,000|
|Vote 1.||Temporary Commissions||9,000|
|Vote 23||Stationery and Printing||110,000|
|Vote 27||Secretary for Scotland, Office of||100|
|Vote 2.||Miscellaneous Legal Expenses||400|
|Vote 5.||Wallace Collection||3,333|
|Vote 8.||London University||70|
|Vote 1.||Diplomatic and Consular Services||15,800|
|Vote 6.||Treasury Chest Fund||66,108|
|Vote 1||Superannuation and Retired Allowances||10,000|
|Vote 5.||Savings Banks and Friendly Societies Deficiencies||51,758|
|Vote 2.||Miscellaneous Expenses||4,600|
|Vote 6.||Local Loans Fund||4,337|
|Vote 7.||Duke and Duchess of Cornwall and York (Visit to the Colonies)||20,000|
|Vote 8.||Funeral of Her late Majesty||35,500|
|Vote 2.||Inland Revenue||20,000|
|Vote 3.||Post Office||130,000|
|Vote 4.||Post Office Packet Service||10|
|Total Civil Services and Revenue Departments||£893,316|
I rise to put a question as to the position in which the House now stands under the operation of what is admitted to be an unexampled and unprecedented proceeding.
The right hon. Gentleman contradicts me when I affirm that it is unprecedented. I was unable to be here yesterday, but I read in the reports of the proceedings that the right hon. Gentleman himself said there was no precedent. Therefore I am justified in saying that it is unprecedented by the words which came from his own mouth. I wish to know how is the Committee to deal with this Vote? Now far is it allowed to discuss a Vote on the subjects which the order Paper contains? There are a great many items grouped in the one Vote. Is the Committee at liberty to discuss and to vote upon all the subjects severally contained in the Paper? Under the old system. even with the prospect of the guillotine in the end, the House was allowed to discuss and divide on every Vote. Is the Leader of the party opposite going to give under this new proceeding the same facilities to the House as have hitherto been enjoyed in dealing with Supplementary Estimates? Can an Amendment be moved on every subject contained in the Order Paper, and can a division be taken upon each question? If anybody may move an Amendment upon any matter contained in the Paper, and take a division upon it, we shall know how to proceed. But in that case I do not see exactly how it is worth while to revolutionise the financial principles upon which the House always proceeds in this matter.
I desire to ask whether the procedure of the House with regard to the Civil Service Estimates as now drawn will not be precisely the same as the procedure with which the House is perfectly familiar in regard to Supplementary Estimates for the Army and Navy, both of which contain items of the utmost difference, and whether it is not also the same as the procedure, with which the House is familiar, in dealing with the Excess Votes, in which case both the subjects; and the accounting officers are different.
On the point of order I would remark that in the case of the Army and Navy the items arc all under one official head. In the case we have before us there are many official heads of Departments.
I think the House will wish to follow the same procedure as it does in the case of Votes on Account. The question there is put in one lump sum. and the, question in this case is put in one lump sum. In both cases the Votes are divided into a number of items. Of course I shall endeavour, as far as I possibly can, to call hon. Members who wish to address the Committee in the order in which the items come.
As you have cited the. question of a Vote on Account, I desire to ask whether the effect of moving a reduction with regard to an item low-down in the list would be to exclude the moving of a reduction with regard to an item higher up in the list, and whether it is not entirely open to you to call Members who wish to speak, if you see fit, without regard to the exact order in which the Votes are taken.
I shall make a point of endeavouring to call hon. Members in the order in which the items come, because I bear in mind the rule of the House that if an item low in the list is taken it is impossible to go hack to a former one.
The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the question of my right hon. friend in regard to the possibility of having successive divisions upon what are really separate Votes although now lumped together in one Vote. Would it be possible to have a series of discussions and divisions on the items as they occur?
That is so, until such time as the whole Vote is taken.
The Ashanti Expedition
said he ventured to think that this Vote was one not to be lightly considered. It affected the credit and interest of this country, and he thought, therefore, the Committee should have more informa- tion from the Colonial Secretary as to what made the war necessary. Many of them listened on the previous evening with a great deal of attention to what had been said by the Colonial Secretary on the subject, but they listened in vain for any precise statement upon this matter. They did not want to be told in general terms what were the, difficulties of the position in South Africa and what were the difficulties and aims of the Colonial Office, but they wanted to know the particular reasons that made this particular war necessary or justifiable. On the previous night the Colonial Secretary indulged in vague generalities and fell foul of the late Government. He told them that the British Government had undertaken responsibilities in Africa and it was only when he came into power as Colonial Secretary that an adequate sense of the position demanded was shown by the Government. The hon. Member thought the Colonial Secretary did certain injustice to the late Government in that matter. He did not think the late Government were so blind to the interests of this country or to our obligations as the right hon. Gentleman represented. It was perfectly true they did not go to war with anybody. That was perhaps the reason why the Colonial Secretary found fault with them. He believed the late Government entered into negotiations with Germany which settled some I outstanding difficulties with Germany; but the Colonial Secretary seemed to think that wars of this kind were absolutely necessary, and it was that which made his speech so unsatisfactory. We had no guarantee that we should not be embarked on a series of wars of this kind. The Colonial Secretary seemed to indicate that if we did our duty we were bound to go to war with one of these nations after another. That required a little explanation. The right hon. Gentleman had also told them that we were called upon to suppress slavery and the slave trade and human sacrifices; but these obligations were not new. They extended to all spheres of influence, and no doubt there had been an increase in our obligations as compared with what they were formerly. What he wanted to know was, what was the particular justification for this war in which we were now engaged? It was to that the Committee ought to direct their attention. It was pretty obvious from the Blue-book that we drifted into this war at a time when our forces were engaged to the utmost in South Africa. The first telegram in the Blue-book was an inquiry from the Colonial Secretary asking what was up. The Colonial Secretary found that there were disturbances, and he had not the slightest idea what led up to them or what they were all about. We entered upon this war and seemed to stumble and blunder along without any adequate preparation, and we were only extricated from it by the extraordinary gallantry of the soldiers and officers in command. What led up to the war? Sir Frederick Hodgson went to Coomassie, apparently under instructions from the Colonial Secretary, and put forward demands, the most provocative he could put, to the Ashantis. He informed them positively that King Prempeh would never come back. They were in hopes that he would come back. Not satisfied with that, he told them they would have to pay a heavy tribute. The Colonial Secretary made light of the amount of it, but £12,500 was not a small amount for a people to pay who were impoverished by the destruction of their commerce. Beyond that, Sir Frederick Hodgson made a demand for the Golden Stool, which was the emblem of authority in Ashanti. If they surrendered the Golden Stool it meant that they ceased1 to be a nation, and became a scattered number of tribes. If that was to be done, it should be done with an adequate: force and after proper preparation. If we were going to take away the liberties of the people it ought to be done deliberately and founded upon a thoroughly thought out policy. Nothing of that kind was done. The expedition was undertaken without any knowledge of the feelings of the Ashantis, and it was undertaken at the worst time of the year. The Colonial Secretary ought to have given them a little more information as to the reasons which made a step of that kind necessary, and as to the necessity that existed for entering upon a war which involved such bloodshed and such immense loss to the colony and the Ashantis themselves. They were told that a policy of this kind was rendered. necessary by our obligations. They were told that we were bound to put down slavery. There was no question of putting down slavery or human sacrifices in this instance. It was a question simply of raising tribute and getting hold of the Golden Stool which was the symbol of authority. If we were going to govern these countries we ought to endeavour to do so by entering into a friendly understanding with the chiefs. The French managed to get on better; they did not engage in these little wars.
said the hon. Member was quite mistaken. In the last few months the French had had wars with two of the principal chiefs.
said the policy of France would bear favourable comparison with ours in that respect and in a great many others, he trusted that they were not to understand from the Colonial Secretary that this was the beginning of a series of wars to be undertaken with no more justification than this war, and that our policy in the future might be a little more in accordance with the dictates of humanity than it had hitherto been.
contended that the Colonial Secretary's assertion that the reason for the opposition encountered by the last expedition to Coomassie was the objection of the natives to any interference with their slave dealings was incorrect, as it was conclusively Proved by the Blue-book that the whole of the disturbances were caused by the refusal of the Government to restore King Prempeh. The treatment of that unfortunate man had been perfectly scandalous, and it was no excuse to attack his personal character. In 1896 the Ashantis offered no opposition to the force sent out to Coomassie, and the Government could have imposed whatever conditions they chose, restored order in the county, and securedall they were striving for, through the authority of King Prempeh. Instead, however, of attempting to rule the country through the king, they kidnapped and imprisoned him, and down to the present day no satisfactory explanation of their action had been given. The result of those proceedings was to be found in the shedding of blood, the uprising of the natives, and the trouble for which the House was now called upon to pay. If the Government were going to war and to impose large burdens upon the taxpayers in order to put down savage practices in any part of the world, England would always be at war, and the expense would be untold. But what really was at the bottom of this business was the same thing as was at the root of the South African trouble. There had unfortunately been discovered in Ashanti rich deposits of gold, and almost simultaneously with this expensive and sanguinary military expedition there were floated in the City limited liability companies for the exploration and exploitation of the gold-fields of Ashanti. There never was case in which it was more clearly proved that gold was a perfect curse to the people of the country in which it might be discovered. The Colonial Secretary had said that the war was undertaken to put down the slave trade. That trade, if it existed now, had existed for many, many years past, and why was no attempt to suppress it made long ago by the present or some preceding Government? According to the right hon. Gentleman, the Government had been consideration itself, and had done everything possible to smooth over the difficulties. To disprove that, one case might be cited of the manner in which these people had been treated. They might be called savage people, and no doubt it was a great mistake that the Almighty, when He created the world, did not make all the populations as highly civilised as the English people. The habits and customs of these people were no doubt shocking in many respects, but, after all, they deserved some consideration as human beings created by God, just as were other people. In 1896, when the British expedition arrived without opposition at Coomassie, there was a great ceremony. The troops were drawn up in a square. in the midst of which a species of throne was constructed of empty boxes and so forth. On this throne the commander of the expedition took his seat, and nothing would suit these people, who wished to conciliate native opinion, but that this unfortunate native king should be marched out and made, on bended knee, to kiss the boots of Sir Francis Scott, the British commander. Even this degrading, humiliating, and scandalous exhibition was not sufficient: the poor old aged mother of the king was forced to go through the same ordeal. The only excuse made when the matter was brought forward in the House of Commons was that, according to a native custom, no submission was complete unless the conquered person made this obeisance to his conqueror, and that in order to impress upon the minds of these people the fact that they had been thoroughly conquered it was necessary that the king and his mother should go through this exhibition. That this description was not exaggerated was shown by Baden-Powell's "Downfall of Prempeh," a most interesting book and profusely illustrated, the first illustration being—
I must remind the hon. Member that we are not now discussing the expenditure on that expedition. Upon this Vote the hon. Member must confine himself to the last expedition.
explained that he was endeavouring to show the causes which led to the recent military operations for which the Committee were now asked to pay. He believed that with proper treatment those operations would never have been necessary. He would not labour that point beyond saying that if any person imagined that what he had said about the treatment meted out to the king and his mother was untrue, he referred them to General Baden-Powell's book, and there they would see exactly what he had described. Could anybody imagine that it was possible to deal with a wild and untrained people of this kind if we outraged every feeling that they might have; if we did everything in our power to humiliate them and treat them with contempt; and if we treated their king in a way which must be deeply resented? The recent military operations had cost us many valuable lives, which certainly might have been sacrificed in a better and nobler work, and now the House was asked to pass hundreds of thousands of pounds which need never have been incurred if, instead of attempting to ride absolutely roughshod over those people. King Prempeh had been allowed time to agree to the terms which were offered to him in 1896. Had this been done the whole country might have been ruled with perfect order, and the outrages spoken of by the Colonial Secretary would have been done away with. There were other portions of Africa where there was contentment and satisfaction, where the native chiefs were allowed to remain among their people, and if that had been done in this case he maintained that the necessity for all this miserable expenditure and terrible bloodshed would have been done away with. There were no doubt abuses in foreign countries which the Colonial Secretary and the Government might think it necessary to spend large sums upon, but there were plenty of abuses in this country which it would be equally-well worth while to spend money to do away with. Some hon. Members on the opposite side deeply resented his frequent interference in those debates, but he was never asked to vote the money for these miserable wars without having it forced upon his mind in the strongest possible way that there were scores of ways in which the money might be more gloriously and usefully spent than in carrying on these wars. The hon. Member for West Islington had done good service in calling attention to this matter, for the practice of asking the House to pass hundreds of thousands of pounds in this way was one which ought to be protested against on all sides, and if the great mass of the people of this country could realise and under stand how uncalled for all those operations were, and how little return ever came to England, Scotland, or Ireland for that expenditure, he believed they would set their faces against them, and they would not tolerate a single penny-piece spent in this way. The Colonial Secretary last night delivered a ferocious attack upon the Under Secretary for Colonial Affairs in the late Government. All he could say was that the late Government, whatever else might be laid to their blame, never entered in an unreasonable and light hearted way info wars of this kind, and the Colonial Secretary seemed to make this a matter for blame. He (Mr. Redmond) held that it was to their credit that they did not. This war would never have been entered into to put down slavery. and it was a disgraceful and a horrible state of affairs at this period of the world's history to find that wherever gold was discovered, whether it was in North, East, West, or South Africa, two things happened—(1) limited liability companies were formed in the City of London, and (2) costly expeditions were sent out to seize the land wherever this gold might he. This took place in South Africa, and it was exactly what had taken place in Ashanti. It would be infinitely better and nobler and more in accordance with the dictates of humanity if the rights of these people were respected to some extent, and if this attempt to plant the British flag everywhere and anywhere at all costs was stopped; for it was the besetting sin of this country and of all Englishmen that they were so filled with the idea of the merits of their own rule and the pride of their own greatness that they could not tolerate or understand other people in any part of the world being desirous of living according to their own wishes in their own country. Until these small wars were given up there would be a continual waste of the public money of the country, and it was a disgrace that the benches of the Liberal party were empty while this kind of thing was going on. If there were an adequate representation of working people in this House there would be other voices raised protesting against this expenditure. In this matter the voices of the majority of those who ought to speak for the taxpayers and working people were silent, but his voice and the voices of other Irish representatives would be raised, and he believed that in this way they were doing a great service not only to the people they represented, but also to the great mass of the people of this country, who cared nothing about gold-mining and company promoting in the City, and who were sick at heart when they read in their newspapers that every day hundreds of thousands of pounds were voted in this way in the House of Commons, not one penny of which went to better the condition of the people of Great Britain or Ireland. All this money was being spent simply to carry the sword, into the land of people in distant parts, whose only crime was that Cod made them what they were instead of making them highly civilised British subjects.
said his hon. friend, in his impassioned speech, appeared to have forgotten that we were responsible for this protectorate in the eyes of Europe. He had forgotten that in 1896 the King of Ashanti was the most cruel and heartless man this world ever produced. We sent out an expedition there to stop one of the most cruel things that was ever perpetrated in Africa.
You said the same thing about Kruger.
But there was no gold then in this case.
Oh, yes, there was.
said the late war was the remains of the 1896 war, and the Government were perfectly honest and straightforward on this question. They had two keynotes with which he thoroughly agreed—one was that wherever the British flag flies we must stop human sacrifice; and the other was the abolition of slavery. He only wished that the Foreign Office had been as firm and determined on the East coast as they had been on the West coast of Africa. He believed that the Government and the Colonial Secretary were honest in their efforts to stop human sacrifice and slavery. He noticed that a sum of £12,500 a year was to be raised and would have to be collected by the hut tax. He thought it would cost more in small wars and collections than the sum was worth. and it would cause also a great deal of bad feeling. He thought the Government might consider some better way of raising that sum. He gave both the Government and the Colonial Secretary credit for putting their foot down in Ashanti in a determined manner.
said that if all hon. Members on that side of the House were convinced that these wars were entered upon for legitimate British interests they might not have grudged the expenditure of not merely this sum of money but the expenditure of ten times the amount. It would be in the recollection of hon. Members on both sides of the House that the complaint against the Government had been that they had not taken sufficient measures to repress slavery in East Africa. Therefore, if they criticised the expenditure of £400,000 on wars in West Africa, it was because they believed that these wars were not waged to abolish slavery but from some other excuse. If his hon. friend the Member for Chesterfield had, before making his speech, carefully read the Blue-books, he would not have made the observations he did. What were the two grievances of the Ashantis? According to Sir F. Hodgson himself they complained against the abolition of slavery; but they said: "You British are not sincere, because while you insist on our abolishing slavery you maintain it in another form." And Sir F. Hodgson admitted that at p. 113] of the Blue-book, by declaring that he had insisted on the compulsory supply of carriers and of men to make roads, but that the chiefs declared they were unable to obtain a sufficient number of labourers to work in the native gold pits, to carry on their ordinary farm labours, and also to supply labourers for public purposes, such as working on the public roads and the conveyance of public stores. The Ashantis might be savages, but at any rate they were a very intelligent race, and they could see the utter hollowness of the demand made by us for the suppression of slavery when we were forcing slavery upon them. A great deal had been said about the mad boy and the quest for the Golden Stool; but, in fact, that was a mad enterprise from beginning to end. What did that mad boy say? He told certain British officers that he had been through several Ashanti villages, and that the Ashantis were assembling in their temples and singing songs all night. We had seen a good deal of that assembling and singing in temples all night much nearer home, and he did not think it was much more sensible than that in Ashanti. And the mad boy said that if the Governor would pay him a large sum of money he would lead an expedition to find the Golden Stool. But all that had nothing to do with the abolition of slavery. What was the defence of the Governor for following the lead of the mad boy? The fact was that the quest of the Golden Stool was something like the quest of the Holy Grail. Sir F. Hodgson said that if he could only get possession of the Golden Stool he would be able to govern the country for all time. Sir F. Hodgson crossed the Prah on '22nd March, but up to that time there had been no insurrection. The Governor in his despatches, in fact, repeatedly declared that he had no idea that there was any discontent amongst the tribes, but, on the contrary, that he had been received with all respect. The proof of that was that he went up from the coast to Coomassie with an escort of only thirty Hausas, that he had been met by no obstacle, and had never been molested in the country which was supposed to be seething with discontent. What happened when ho arrived at Coomassie? There was a great reception and the surrounding tribes and their kings marched past him, with one exception, which came in later on. What sign was there in that of any great insurrection? On the 30th March—it would have been far better if it had been the 1st April—the Governor heard the story from the mad boy as to the Golden Stool, and he sent an armed expedition, guided by the mad boy, into the interior of the country. The Governor said in his despatch: "The 1st April was a day of extreme anxiety to me." He was not at all surprised. For two or three days this armed expedition marched about the country; the mad boy went into the villages and told the natives that "these people"—meaning the Governor's expedition—"have come to wage war against you." After that it became clear to the villagers that it was simply a raiding expedition in quest of the Golden Stool. The result was the revolt, the war, and the expenditure of £400,000. Now, who was to blame for this war? The chieftains were not merely loyal but submissive, and prepared to demand redress in a perfectly constitutional way. Was there anything more constitutional than for these chiefs to come to Coomassie to receive the Governor with welcomes I and to present him with salutations?
said that the hon. Member was forgetting that an insurrection might spring up in these savage countries under mistaken notions.
said that, of course, an insurrection might spring up an this foolish manner if this country allowed its policy to be guided by mad boys. If that sort of action was characteristic of the Colonial Office he could understand that we would have not three wars, but many more in the next few years. All this showed that the war was precipitated not only because there was a quest for the Golden Stool, but because of the irritation in the minds of these people at the annexation of their country. Questions had been put to the right hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary the previous night: dates were given and incidents were referred to; but the right hon. Gentleman in his reply, instead of addressing himself to the points put, entered into an elaborate defence of the administration of his own office. The question was what had happened in this particular case—not whether it was necessary to defend Ashanti, or to develop the gold mines. The gold mines had never been mentioned in these despatches. Was the war, in the ordinary cant phrase, "inevitable"? The right hon. Gentle-man said, "When I came to the Colonial Office there was nothing done; but the moment I came on the scene there were six wars."
I said nothing of the kind.
Oh. but I have got it all here.
What I said was that I am responsible for three wars, and the Foreign Office is responsible for three wars.
The right hon. Gentleman said that as soon as his Ministry came into office there were six wars. That did just as well for him. The right hon. Gentleman said that when his hon. friends now on the Opposition Benches wers in office they did nothing. Quite true. Their Estimates provided for no wars. They had better ideas of profit and loss in business than that. And now he could quite understand that the right hon. Gentleman had got into the habit of talking of these wars as if they were all feathers in his cap. If he only went on, the right hon. Gentleman's headgear would be like that of a. Red Indian He ventured to say that the right hon. Gentleman in defending his action the previous evening did not do so with the sobriety due to this important and solemn matter. After all, human life was worth some respectful treatment. They ought to have some justification of the foolish policy of the Government in regard to the Golden Stool and of the hundreds and thousands of the corpses of savages festering round the fort of Coomassie. It was not enough to say, "Look at the great colonial policy of the last five years." That was no answer. "I have opened up new markets," said the right hon. Gentleman; but that also was no answer. If we went into wars they profited trade to a certain extent. £400,000 of trade was something, if we spent nothing else. But that was not the sort of industry that was wanted to open up new markets. He ventured to say that the community generally would not benefit by it; that these people in Ashanti would prefer to conduct their operations quietly; and it was only when the right hon. Gentleman went out of his way to offend their sentiments in connection with their native affairs that they forced on this war. A poll-tax equivalent to 4s. per head had been demanded upon this savage community. Where were we to get it from? We were collecting the taxes in Uganda in the form of boa constrictors and hippopotami—the only products of the country. But so far as he was aware there were not even those fiscal resources in Ashanti. It was true there were certain native gold mines; but we had abolished slavery, and it was by slave labour that these mines were worked. Still, we demanded the tax at the hands of the chiefs ! He quite agreed that we should abolish slavery, but at the same time we should not compel them to pay that which the slaves had earned. The right hon. Gentleman had not addressed himself to the question with a proper regard for its solemnity. He drew attention to what he described as the ridiculous language-used by Sir F. Hodgson to the chiefs with reference to the Golden Stool, and said it would have been better if the Colonial Secretary had addressed himself to a defence of the Government in respect of the action of Sir F. Hodgson. In his address to the chiefs Sir F. Hodgson asked, "Where is the Golden Stool? Why am I not sitting on it at this moment? I am the representative of the paramount Power; why have you relegated me to this chair?" (referring to a biscuit box). This was childish babble to address to these savages in the name of the Sovereign of a great country like this, and it was calculated only to lower, not to enhance, British prestige. The right hon. Gentleman had said we had to defeat them, it was necessary to kill them, in order to show that we were a great nation; but we had gone through that process before, and they knew the superiority of British arms. Was it necessary to repeat the process periodically? If so, a greater condemnation of the policy of the Government in this matter could not be conceived. It was not a question of protecting the country or compelling these people to free their slaves. If it was a question of the freeing of slaves. we might commence that at Zanzibar.
did not consider the speech of the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down a practical one. The Ashanti affair was closed, and although there might be regrettable incidents connected with the dealings with these kings it was impossible to go back into the matter. On the whole the results had been good. The outcome of British control in Ashanti would result in the safety and prosperity of hundreds and thousands of natives in the future, as had been truly said by the Colonial Secretary on the previous evening. He protested against the statement of the hon. Gentleman that the late Government had too good an idea of profit and loss to indulge in this way; had the policy of the late Government been pursued in Africa we should not have had any possessions to deal with at all. either in Ashanti or South Africa. It was futile at this time to talk of the mistakes which: had occurred, although he admitted there might be some. For instance, he did not think that the mission which had been sent by King Prempeh was fairly dealt with. His main complaint against the Colonial Secretary with regard to the Ashanti question was. very different to any of those just put forward. In his opinion there was a want of sufficient force at Coomassie previous to the outbreak; that was a serious question, and he did not know who was-responsible for it, but someone undoubtedly was, and the failure to maintain sufficient force at Coomassie was entirely responsible for the terrible loss of life that had occurred. It was perfectly plain to everybody that a very terrible tragedy had only been narrowly averted by the escape of the Governor. He desired to know why so very small a force was left in the country of a warlike and un-subdued people without any immediate provision being made for its reinforcement; that was a point upon which they were entitled to have the views of the right hon. Gentleman. What had happened in Ashanti would work for good; we should possess in the country and the neighbouring regions a colony of great and increasing wealth, which would be useful to this country in the future in taking its products, and which would give employment to many British subjects, and under the British rule the black races would be much better off than ever they had been before, and under the British Government they would attain to a certain degree of civilisation.
said he-had hoped that the answer given by the Colonial Secretary on the previous evening would have enabled him to avoid troubling the House to go into the division lobbies on this question, but unless that answer was amended he should be compelled to press for a division. In answer to the suggestion that this expedition was for the purpose of putting down human sacrifice and slavery he challenged anyone to say whether there had been any human sacrifice or whether slavery had been allowed in the country during the last five years. The Government had accomplished their purpose of abolishing human sacrifice and slavery-years before the outrage took place. He-called the attention of the Committee-to the fact that this was merely a general argument thrown out by the right hon. Gentleman to justify a war for which he could find no other justification whatever. Sir Frederick Hodgson had given three causes for the war, none of which were sufficient causes. The first was the heavy tribute which he said must be paid by the natives, and in this case there appeared to be a difference of opinion between the right hon. Gentleman and Sir Frederick Hodgson. The right hon. Gentleman said it was a poll tax on the whole male population of Ashanti. Sir Frederick Hodgson said it was interest on the cost of the late expedition. The right hon. Gentleman stated that there was a balance of £50,000 in the Gold Coast budget. If there was he did not think it would be; fair to the Gold Coast to sweep away all that to pay the money due for Ashanti. The right hon. Gentleman said at one time that it was a poll tax of four shillings, and at another time it was the interest on outlay. This attempt to chevy these people out of the money had been the first cause of the war. With regard to the Golden Stool he thought the Secretary for the Colonies should do something to soothe the irritated feeling of the natives. We were still searching for the Golden Stool, and the light hon. Gentleman stated on the previous night that he approved of the search. Was it to go on eternally, and was it to be "unconditional surrender" until we got the Golden Stool? Surely we might take a practical view of the question, and the right hon. Gentleman might announce that there had been sufficient bloodshed and loss of money over this matter. The right hon. Gentleman said we had admitted these natives to the Pax Britannica. He hardly ever made a speech on the colonies without quoting the words Pax Britannica. Where had the Pax Britannica been since he came into office? There had been eight wars in Africa, and there would never be any other policy so long as the right hon. Gentleman was in charge of the Colonial Office. The Ashanti war was "over" simply because the natives were tired for the present. Could it be said that with the sense of injustice in their minds they wore not preparing for another war? They would break out again and again unless we met their just complaints in a kindly and conciliatory spirit. It was because that had not been done that he moved the reduction of the first item of the Vote by £100.
Motion made, and Question proposed. "That the Item, Class 5, Vote 3, be reduced by £100, in respect of disturbances in Ashanti.''—( Mr. Lough.)
said one of the most painful features of the debate was the absence from it of a number of hon. Members who were leading lights in the different religious communities of the country interested in foreign missions. In years gone by we used to hear the voice of the missionary interest raised in favour of the civilisation. of Africa by peaceful processes, and not by warlike proceedings such as we seemed to depend upon now. The hon. Member for the Chesterfield Division of Derbyshire was handsomely caught in the colonial net so cunningly spread on the previous night, and he was innocent enough to believe that this war in Ashanti was undertaken out of a pure desire to put an end to human sacrifices. It was noticeable of late years that the loadstone which called the Government to relieve oppression was generally found in the gold mines, and here it was again. When this Government professed to go to the relief of human beings it would be found, if it were looked into a little further, that speculators were near the scene of their action. Talk of a crusade to suppress human sacrifices Could there be anything more monstrous than such a profession in face of the account on page 46 of the Blue-book of the state of things that was found at Coomassie? Why, it was a disgrace to a civilised nation. We should have heard nothing about the stool if it had been a wooden one. An orange box would have been perfectly satisfactory. There would have been no demand for it had it not been that it was supposed to be made of the precious metal. Were we suppressing slavery? Before we went to the native chiefs in the name of freedom we should remove the compound at Kimberley. What had we there? How were the wealthy men who were the friends of the Government, and who were the authors of the war in South Africa, producing gold out there, but by a system of slavery?
asked whether the hon. Member was in order in the line he was now taking.
pointed out that it was not in order to discuss matters relating to Kimberley on this Vote.
said he recognised that the reference was inconvenient to the Secretary for the Colonies, and if it was ruled out of order he would not pursue the subject. He might be allowed to say that the Secretary for the Colonies based this expedition for loot in Ashanti on the ground that he was going there for the prevention of further human sacrifices and the prevention of slavery. He only desired to show that we ought to take the mote out of our own eye before we attempted to pluck the beam out of our brother's eye. The right hon. Gentleman could not deny that there had been "blackbird hunting" in the interest of some of the authorities in South Africa. That resulted in the capture of a poor creature who preferred suicide by drowning to slavery in the mines, He understood that the right hon. Gentleman had assured the House that he was going to inquire into the truth of that.
I must appeal to you again. If the hon. Gentleman is in order I must go fully into the statement he is now making. I ask you whether he is in order in referring to these matters in Rhodesia and Kimberley.
I understood the hon. Member to say that he was not going to refer to them.
I do not wish to pursue it except for the purpose of illustration, and I really think if the Colonial Secretary would allow me for a moment to pursue my statement, under the guidance of the Chair—
The hon. Gentleman is entitled to a passing reference, but to go into this question and state a number of facts, which the right hon. Gentleman says he may have to contra- dict at a later stage, is clearly outside the scope of this discussion.
said he supported the motion for the reduction of the Vote because he believed the Government, in pursuing a policy of universal war in Africa, were pursuing a deadly and disastrous policy, not only financially, but for the reputation and good name of our common country. The Colonial Secretary seemed to think a, great argument in favour of his policy was that he had made more wars than the Liberal party. Then there seemed to be a conflict between the Colonial Office and the Foreign Office as to which had made most wars. The Liberal party ruled Africa on the lines of peace, and he sincerely hoped that when they returned to power again they would resume the policy of peace, and that they would not attempt to teach savages the wickedness of human sacrifices by indulging in great slaughter, with modern weapons, of the poor savage people we sought to rule. The basis of this movement in Ashanti was the curse of gain. He could vote with a clear conscience against that policy.
I wish to say, in a few sentences, why I shall vote for the reduction of this Vote. It is on account of the defence which has been put forward by the Colonial Secretary. He has claimed credit for this Vote as being an instance of the superiority of the present Administration over the late Administration in regard to the number of wars in which it has been engaged. Whenever such a policy is advocated upon such grounds as that, I shall vote against every sixpence.
said this was the third expedition which the British Government had indulged in for the purpose of introducing civilisation into Ashanti. Civilisation introduced by the British Government was always introduced with the bayonets of soldiers. The Government went to these countries with the Bible in one hand and the sword in the other. He thought the English race should give effect to their missionary instincts a little more in their own country. There were some English towns where some good might be done. If the hon. Member for West Islington had not moved the reduction of the Vote, he would have moved a reduction of £18,000, that being the amount of additional taxation which it represented so far as Ireland was concerned. He protested against the policy of introducing civilisation by warfare on savage peoples, who were practically defenceless, because they could not possibly withstand quick-firing guns and new deadly inventions. It was a policy which would make the British name detested wherever conquests were made.
May I make an appeal in the interest of the discussions that are to come? It is evident that if we discuss this Vote at too great length we will find little time left for the consideration of the other Votes. I would therefore beg the House to try to come to a decision.
said the dishonourable means by which King Prempeh was entrapped must have
|Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)||Elibank, Master of||Lloyd-George, David|
|Allan, William (Gateshead)||Ellis, John Edward||Lundon, W.|
|Allen, C. P. (Glouc, Stroud)||Esmonde, Sir Thomas||Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.|
|Asquith Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry||Farquharson, Dr. Robert||M'Dermott, Patrick|
|Barlow, John Emmott||Farrell, James Patrick||M'Kenna, Reginald|
|Barry, E. (Cork, S.)||Fenwick, Charles||M'Laren, Charles Benjamin|
|Bell, Richard||Ffrench, Peter||Mansfield, Horace Rendall|
|Boyle, James||Field, William||Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe|
|Brigg, John||Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond||Mellor, Rt. Hon. John W.|
|Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)||Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.||Morley, Charles (Breconshire)|
|Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson||Gilhooly, James||Moss, Samuel|
|Burke, E. Haviland-||Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John||Murphy, J.|
|Burns, John||Goddard, Daniel Ford||Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.|
|Burt, Thomas||Grant, Corrie||Norton, Capt. Cecil William|
|Buxton, Sydney Charles||Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton||O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)|
|Caine, William Sproston||Hammond, John||O'Brien, Kendal (Tipper'ryMid|
|Caldwell, James||Harcourt, lit. Hon. Sir William||O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)|
|Cameron, Robert||Hayden, John Patrick||O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.|
|Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)||Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-||O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)|
|Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.||Hemphill, lit. Hon. Charles H.||O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)|
|Carew, James Laurence||Holland, William Henry||O'Dowd, John|
|Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton||Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.||O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)|
|Causton, Richard Knight||Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)||O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)|
|Clancy, John Joseph||Jacoby, James Alfred||O'Malley, William|
|Condon, Thomas Joseph||Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.||O'Mara, James|
|Craig, Robert Hunter||Jordan, Jeremiah||O'Shaughnessy, P. J.|
|Crean, Eugene||Joyce, Michael||Partington, Oswald|
|Crombie, John William||Kearley, Hudson E.||Price, Robert John|
|Daly, James||Kennedy, Patrick James||Reddy, M.|
|Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)||Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth||Redmond, William (Clare)|
|Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan||Kitson, Sir James||Reid, Sir R. T. (Dumfries)|
|Dewar, John A.(Inverness-sh.)||Labouchere, Henry||Rigg, Richard|
|Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles||Layland-Barratt, Francis||Roche, John|
|Donelan, Captain A.||Leamy, Edmund||Roe, Sir Thomas|
|Doogan, P. C.||Leng, Sir John||Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)|
|Dully, William J.||Levy, Maurice||Schwann, Charles E.|
|Duncan, James H.||Lewis, John Herbert||Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)|
weighed with the natives, and he did not think that sufficient attention had been given to the matter. Methods of sharp practice against weaker opponents were very much to be deprecated. They were out of place in the Colonial Office, however well they might be suited to Birmingham. The Colonial Secretary had not replied to the many criticisms which had been addressed to him that day. The First Lord of the Treasury had appealed to the House generally to accelerate the progress of the Vote through the House. The business of the House would be much accelerated if Ministers did not treat the criticisms coming from the Irish Members with the contempt they had shown. It would seem that the war was made for the Golden Stool. Perhaps the Colonial Secretary wanted it as a stool of repentance, from which to do penance for all the wars he had made.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 137; Noes, 254. (Division List No. 71.)
|Shipman, Dr. John G.||Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings||White, Luke (Yorks., E. R.)|
|Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.)||Tomkinson, James||Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)|
|Smith, Samuel (Flint)||Trevelyan, Charles Philips||Williams, Osmond (Merioneth|
|Soares, Ernest, J.||Tully, Jasper||Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)|
|Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R (N'thants)||Wallace, Robert||Young, Samuel (Cavan, East),|
|Stevenson, Francis S||Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)||Yoxall, James Henry|
|Sullivan, Donal||Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.|
|Taylor, Theodore Cooke||Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan||TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Lough and Mr. Broadhurst.|
|Tennant, Harold John||Weir, James Galloway|
|Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)||White, George (Norfolk)|
|Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F.||Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham||Helder, Augustus|
|Agg-Gardner, James Tynte||Dewar, T. R (T'rH'mlets, S Geo.||Higginbottom, S. W.|
|Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel||Dickson, Charles Scott||Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead)|
|Allhusen, Augustus Henry E.||Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.||Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.|
|Allsopp, Hon. George||Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield||Hogg, Lindsay|
|Anson, Sir William Reynell||Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph||Hope, J. F. (Sheffield Bightside|
|Archdale, Edward Mervyn||Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred. D.||Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry|
|Arkwright, John Stanhope||Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-||Hoult, Joseph|
|Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.||Doxford, Sir Wm. Theodore||Howard, Capt. J. (KentFaversh|
|Arrol, Sir William||Duke, Henry Edward||Hozier, Hon. James Hy. Cecil|
|Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis||Dunn, Sir William||Hudson, George Bickersteth|
|Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John||Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin||Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)|
|Austin, Sir John||Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart||Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse|
|Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy||Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton||Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick|
|Bailey, James (Walworth)||Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas||Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton|
|Rain, Colonel James Robert||Faber, George Denison||Johnston, William (Belfast)|
|Ralcarres, Lord||Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J. (Manc'r||Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H.|
|Baldwin, Alfred||Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst||Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh|
|Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(Manch'r||Finlay, Sir Robert Rannatyne||Kenyon Slaney, Col. W. (Salop|
|Banbury, Frederick George||Fisher, William Hayes||Kimber, Henry|
|Hartley, George C. T.||FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-||Lambton, Hon Frederick Wm.|
|Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin||Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon||Laurie, Lieut.-General|
|Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol||Flannery, Sir Fortescue||Lawrence, William F.|
|Reach, Rt. Hn. W.W.B. (Hants.||Fletcher, Sir Henry||Lawson, John Grant|
|Reaumont, Wentworth C. B.||Foster, Sir Michael(Lond. Univ.||Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. Edw. H.|
|Bentinck, Lord Henry C.||Fuller, J. M. F.||Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Farham|
|Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.||Furness, Sir Christopher||Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage|
|Bignold, Arthur||Garfit, William||Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie|
|Rill, Charles||Gibbs, Hn. A.G.H (City of Lond.||Leveson-Gower, Fredk. N. S.|
|Bond, Edward||Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)||Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.|
|Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex||Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick||Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (BristolS.|
|Brassey, Albert||Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin&Nairn||Lonsdale, John Brownlee|
|Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John||Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rHmlets||Lowe, Francis William|
|Brookfield, Colonel Montagu||Gore, Hon. F. S. Ormsby-||Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)|
|Bull, William James||Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon||Loyd, Archie Kirkman|
|Burdett-Coutts, W.||Goschen, Hon. George Joachim||Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)|
|Butcher, John George||Goulding, Edward Alfred||Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth|
|Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H.||Gray, Ernest (West Ham)||Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred|
|Cautley, Henry Strother||Greene, Sir E W (B'rySEdm'nds||Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. E.|
|Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)||Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)||Macdona, John Gumming|
|Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.||Gretton, John||Maconochie, A. W.|
|Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J.(Birm.||Greville, Hon. Ronald||M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)|
|Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore.||Groves, James Grimble||M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W|
|Chapman, Edward||Guthrie, Walter Murray||M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire|
|Churchill, Winston Spencer||Hain, Edward||Malcolm, Ian|
|Clare, Octavius Leigh||Halsey, Thomas Frederick||Manners, Lord Cecil|
|Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E.||Hambro, Charles Eric||Maple, Sir John Blundell|
|Cohen, Benjamin Louis||Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Ld. G. (Midx||Martin, Richard Biddulph|
|Colomb, Sir John Charles R.||Hamilton, Marq. of (Londndrry||Maxwell, W. J. H.(Dumfriessh.|
|Colston, Chas. Edw.H. Athole||Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.||Melville, Beresford Valentine|
|Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow||Hardy, Laurence (Kent Ashf'rd||Mildmay, Francis Bingham|
|Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)||Hare, Thomas Leigh||Milward, Colonel Victor|
|Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge||Harmsworth, R. Leicester||Molesworth, Sir Lewis|
|Cranborne, Viscount||Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)||Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)|
|Cripps, Charles Alfred||Harwood, George||Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.|
|Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)||Haslam, Sir Alfred S.||Moon, Edward Robert Pacy|
|Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)||Haslett, Sir James Horner||More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)|
|Cubitt, Hon. Henry||Hay, Hon. Claude George||Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)|
|Cust, Henry John C.||Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley||Morgan, Hn. Fred (Monm'thsh.|
|Dalkeith, Earl of||Heath, James (Staffords, N. W.||Morrell, George Herbert|
|Dalrymple, Sir Charles||Heaton, John Henniker||Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.|
|Morrison, James Archibald||Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson||Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)|
|Morton, Arthur A. A. (Deptford||Robertson, Herbert (Hackney||Thorburn, Sir Walter|
|Mount, William Arthur||Rolleston, Sir John F. L.||Thornton, Percy M.|
|Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.||Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander||Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray|
|Murray, Rt Hn. A Graham(Bute||Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)||Tritton, Charles Ernest|
|Murray, Charles J.(Coventry)||Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert||Valentia, Viscount|
|Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)||Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. E.J.||Vincent, Col. Sir C.E.H. (Sh'ffld|
|Myers, William Henry||Seely, Charles (Lincoln)||Walker, Col William Hall|
|Nicholson, William Graham||Sharpe, William Edward T.||Warr, Augustus Frederick|
|Nicol, Donald Ninian||Simeon, Sir Barrington||Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L.|
|O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens||Sinclair, Louis (Romford)||Whitmore, Charles Algernon|
|Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay||Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)||Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)|
|Parker, Gilbert||Smith, H. C (North'mb. Tynesi'e||Wilson, John (Falkirk)|
|Parkes, Ebenezer||Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.||Wilson, John (Glasgow)|
|Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley||Spear, John Ward||Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.|
|Pierpoint, Robert||Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich||Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)|
|Pretyman, Ernest George||Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)||Wolff, Gustay Wilhelm|
|Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward||Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)||Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-|
|Purvis, Robert||Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart||Wrightson, Sir Thomas|
|Quilter, Sir Cuthbert||Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.||Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George|
|Rankin, Sir James||Stock, James Henry||Young, Commander (Berks, E.)|
|Reid, James (Greenock)||Stone, Sir Benjamin|
|Remnant, James Farquharson||Stroyan, John||TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.|
|Renshaw, Charles Bine||Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley|
|Rentoul, James Alexander||Start, Hn. Humphrey Napier|
Original question again proposed.
Transvaal Concessions Commission
, in moving to reduce the Vote by £200, said he was well aware that everything uttered in the House of Commons was used in the Cape by the one party or the other for political purposes. He did not wish in any way to intensify the racial struggle now proceeding, but there were times in the lives of men as of nations when criticism of private and urgent affairs was necessary in the public interest. For that reason he had no hesitation in bringing certain facts before the Committee; but he was able to do so only in a partial manner owing to the limited reference and to the fact that the Concessions Commission had not yet reported. That Commission would go down to history as one more of those Commissions appointed by the Colonial Secretary for "whitewashing" purposes, and not in the interests of South Africa.
To which Commission is the hon. Member referring?
said he was referring to all of them, but particularly the Concessions Commission. It was a remarkable fact that the Colonial Secretary, not being content with the dissatisfaction caused throughout South Africa by the line taken with regard to another Commission, had on this Commission appointed a representative of Messrs Wernher, Beit, and Co. What interest could he served by appointing on a Commission of three members a, gentleman in the employment of and directly connected with the firm of Messrs. Wernher, Beit and Company? He had no desire to shelter himself behind the privilege attaching to Members of the House, and he was perfectly willing to repeat out of doors, if called upon to do so. the statements he was about to make. It would be within the recollection of the House that it-was only a few years ago that the Colonial Secretary alluded to the party of which he was so distinguished an ornament as a celebrated gang of thieves and swindlers": he (the speaker), however, was going to charge these men with being nothing more nor less than a common gang of thieves and swindlers. To be a celebrated thief or criminal was a matter of certain notoriety, but to be a common thief was a matter which surely would not commend itself to the attention of anyone. The Government had made appointments on these Commissions, and the Committee should judge whether or not they were in the public interest. The gentleman to whom the hon. Member objected in this instance was Mr. Loveday. he had nothing to say personally against Mr. Loveday, nor did he wish to throw any dirt upon him, but as this was the only opportunity he had of attacking the constitution of the Commission, he was obliged to bring Mr. Loveday's name into the matter. Mr. Loveday was a member of the firm of Messrs. Eckstein, otherwise Messrs. Wernher, Beit and Company, who were nothing more nor less than a common gang of thieves and swindlers. [Order, order!] Hon. Members cried "Order, order." He was prepared to stand an action in the law courts before a jury of his countrymen on that statement. He had already in the public press and in his own constituency made that accusation against Messrs. Barnato Brothers, but had not yet received a writ for libel. The fact he desired to bring before the Committee was that the representatives of these men held every position of importance throughout South Africa. Mr. Loveday was a director in the Pretoria Lighting Company, and the hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington on a previous occasion contradicted the statement that he was interested in the concessions.
May I ask what meaning the hon. Member attaches to the word "concessions"?
replied that in a book published by Mr. C. S. Goldman (who was connected directly with the firm of Messrs. Wernher, Beit and Company), it was stated that the Pretoria Lighting Company was a concession.
said that was not quite an answer to his question. What was the meaning the hon. Gentleman himself attached to the word "concession"? There was a perfectly clear meaning to the word in the Transvaal.
said he was not there to go into the meaning of words, and referred the hon. Member to Johnson's Dictionary. He certainly knew the meaning himself perfectly well. Mr. Loveday was a director of this company, which had a concession from the late Transvaal Government. He was also a director of the Transvaal Consolidated Land and Exploration Company, and a representative of Mr. Beit in that company. This company owned 2,.357,549 acres of land in the Transvaal. Mr. Loveday appeared also as a director of the Eastleigh Mines, Limited, another worthless company, floated many times over. The Committee must quite understand that he did not accuse Mr. Loveday of being a dishonourable man.
You said he was a member of a firm of thieves and swindlers.
I did not say he was a member of a firm of thieves and swindlers; I said he was a director of a. company which Messrs. Eckstein, otherwise Wernher, Beit, and Co., controlled. That is a matter of great distinction. Continuing, the hon. Member said that when the Commission arrived at Cape Town it was met by Mr. Van Hulsteyn, the solicitor of Messrs. Wernher, Beit, and Co., who was immediately appointed to represent the Imperial Government at the sittings of the Commission. By some unknown influence Mr. Van Hulsteyn had been occupying a position in Government House, Cape Town, for which he was not paid. He was, however, paid by Messrs. Eckstein. What happened when the Commission arrived at Pretoria? According to the facts supplied to him, many of the concessions belonging to Messrs. Eckstein were not inquired into. The matter of concessions was one of the most important questions in the Transvaal. As he read the reference, the Concessions Commission was limited solely to the concessions given directly by the late Transvaal Government. But the most important concessions in Swaziland, nearly all belonging to Messrs. Eckstein, were not inquired into at all, though they wore registered in the South African Republic, and also approved of before being registered by the late Transvaal Government. Everything of any note in Swaziland had been ceded by concession-mongers to Messrs. Eckstein. The king in that country, and his advisers, became drunkards and dissolute beings, and these concession-mongers went from all parts of Africa to obtain concessions, and yet this Commission had taken absolutely no notice of most of those concessions. There were many matters in connection with South Africa and with this Commission he should like to bring forward, but he would not be in order in so doing. The proceedings of the Commission were, however, reported in a paper called The Friend of the Free State, and therefore he would he in order in referring to what happened at Bloemfontein. On the arrival of the Army at Bloemfontein, the military authorities seized the printing plant of The Friend of the Free State. Shortly afterwards, Messrs. Wernher, Beit and Company obtained control of that paper. No public tenders were called for. and it was the only paper allowed by the authorities to appear in the colony and north of the colony. Why was it Messrs. Eckstein obtained control of that paper? Why was it given to them without any public tenders being called for! It was to their interest to acquire that paper, which they did. He was debarred from dealing with some of these questions, but he wished to say a word or two in this connection. He would read an extract from one of Mr. Eckstein's own papers, which stated —
If such a charge was made by an hon. Member of this House after due and careful consideration of the facts, were the Government going to persist in this policy of granting concessions and appointments to those who had done so much to bring about this unhappy war in South Africa?.' He believed that it was the wish of all sections in this House that there should be a pure administration in South Africa, but if the Colonial Secretary thought he was a match for Wernher, Beit, and Co. and their associated companies, he was very much mistaken. The right hon. Gentleman might be able to twist words into a form to misrepresent the views of his opponents—"The fact of Mr. Phillip's admission into the firm of Messrs. Wernher, Beit and Co. does not signify his withdrawal from the Hand in addition to his severance from Messrs. H. Eckstein and Co. Messrs. Wernher, Beit and Co. hold a large interest in the Rand through the Eckstein firm, and the change means merely his withdrawal from the 'Corner House' to join the larger firm."
I do not think that expression, applied to the right hon. Gentleman, is one that ought to be used.
said he would withdraw the word "misrepresent,'' and as he was only a novice in Parliament he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would accept his apology. He would only say that the right hon. Gentleman was able to make black white, and white black. He wished to know why this course was persisted in by the Government in spite of the protests they had received from South Africa in regard to the appointments made. Hon. Members opposite might think he had got a crank in his head with regard to those appointments, but if that was their view it was for them to show that the statement was incorrect. He took his stand on the question of principle that the very men who brought about this war, and who had created this corrupt Government in the Transvaal from its commencement, were those men to whom he had referred. These were the innocents "who went out to corrupt Mr. Kruger and his party. Corruption had followed on the methods those financiers adopted. The very future prosperity and happiness of that country depended upon the granting to the people of that equitable form of government against which one word could not be said, and by showing this favouritism they were going a very long way towards bringing this country into perpetual turmoil by appointing men who had not the confidence of the people in South Africa. He did not know whether he should he in order or not. but with the permission of the House he should like to give one example of the kind of roguery which had gone on in South Africa. He held in his hand a document which would send those directors, if they were in this country, into penal servitude for many years.
Does the hon. Member connect this in any way with the Commission? If he can he will he in order, but not otherwise.
said the only way he could bring it in would he to show that Mr. Loveday was a co-director with a gentleman who was connected as a director with this company. This was one of the swindles which the British public had so long suffered under—the Barnato Consolidated Mines. It might interest the British public to know that though the mines had been dealt in to the extent of millions sterling, and represented millions sterling to-day, there was a secret clause in the Articles of Association which gave them, without the public knowing anything about it, 25 per cent. of all the profits the company made. These gentlemen put that Into their pockets.
I fail to see what connection this has with the personnel of the Commission.
said he would not pursue that point—except in the law courts, if those firms took him there. Unless they did so, the Government should not appoint any more of these firms' representatives directly or indirectly to any position of trust in South Africa. If the Government were prepared to undertake that, his object would be accomplished. He had no axe to grind; he was acting solely in the public interest. With regard to the question of the settlement of soldiers on the land, he said there was only one Member of the House who had made attacks on the soldiers of the Empire on anonymous correspondence. That gentleman was the Colonial Secretary. [Oh, oh.] On anonymous correspondence the right hon. Gentleman had charged the soldiers of the Empire with being guilty of little less than murder. Let hon. Members read the book. [Cries of "Quote," and "What book?"] The right hon. Gentleman did not deny the accusation.
I cannot deny the statement, because I do not understand the allusion.
said that on the 1st August, 1879—[Cries of "Oh, oh !"] If the right hon. Gentleman the Colonia Secretary made a statement which was wrong then, it was just as wrong to make that statement in 1900. In that speech the right hon. Gentleman did attack the soldiers of the Empire. Upon that date he moved—
That was the motion made by the Colonial Secretary, and in his speech in support of that motion he quoted the case of the chief named Macomo, who had been declared to be a rebel, and against whom an expedition had been sent. Upon that occasion the right hon. Gentleman said—"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying Her Majesty to appoint a Royal Commission to inquire on the spot into the policy which had led to these and other wars in South Africa, and which has resulted in large annexations of territory and increase of responsibility, in spite of repeated protest from successive British Governments."
The right hon. Gentleman further characterised the acts of the expedition as bloody, brutal, foul, barbarous murder, and further declared that "it was high time that the right name should be applied to an action which almost made a man ashamed to be an Englishman."†"No attempt was made by the Colonial authorities to reassure the chief (Macomo) or to settle the quarrel amicably, but a large armed force of 1,200 men, consisting of soldiers, free lancers, Fingoes, and others, went at night, burnt all his huts, shot down his people right and left, and carried oft women and children to gaol."
This matter does not seem to be at all relevant. I invite the hon. Gentleman to address himself to the Vote before the Committee.
said he did not wish to trespass further on the indulgence of the House, but if the Government persisted in this policy they would bring about incalculable harm to South Africa, and they would only be serving the interest of a clique, and not the higher and better interests of the people. [No, no.] If he was proved to be wrong in his statements he was prepared to pay, and pay substantially. He now contented himself by moving the reduction of the Vote by £200.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Item. Class 5. Vote 3, be reduced by £200, in respect of the Transvaal Concessions and Land Settlement Commissions."—( Mr. Markham.)
†The speech of Mr. Chamberlain referred to (1st August, 1879) is reported in The Parliamentary Debates [Third Series, Vol. ccxlviii., page 1853]
I have listened to the hon. Member's speech with feelings of absolute despair of being able to comprehend the workings of the hon. Gentleman's mind. I hoped that I should come across some reason which would bear some distant reference to the Vote for the two Commissions, upon which Members of the House served, appointed to obtain information with reference to certain matters of considerable importance in South Africa. I learn from the speech of the hon. Gentleman that he views my proceedings and my character with much asperity.
Well, that again is not itself a conclusive argument against the composition of these Commissions. Then I learn from the hon. Gentleman—and this was a fact which he stated over and over and over again—that he was prepared to face a jury of his countrymen and to repeat outside the House certain statements which he made inside the House. That is very interesting, although it is a kind of bravery which I do not put very high. It must, I think, be rather painful to the House that the privileges of the House should be taken advantage of in order to use such extremely violent and strong language with regard to persons who cannot defend themselves.
said he did not wish to be misrepresented.
The hon. Gentleman would. I think, have done better if, instead of saying in this House, as a preliminary of the campaign which he apparently is going to conduct, that Messrs. Eckstein, Wernher, Beit and Co. were common thieves and swindlers, and that Messrs. Barnato and Company—I do not know the names of these companies, but I understood him. to say that the firm of Barnato Brothers or the Barnato Consolidated Mine were also common thieves and swindlers—if, before saying that in this House, he had written it outside the House. We should then have known what all this professed anxiety to meet in the law courts meant; but to say it in this House and afterwards outside is a very small foundation upon which to found a suit for libel. If the hon. Gentleman has these opinions, let him by all means put them in writing outside the House and let him challenge those persons to prosecute. But, granted for the sake of argument that the charges are true, what on earth has that to do with these two Commissions—the Commission for inquiring into certain concessions granted by the Transvaal Government and the Commission to inquire into the possibility of settling upon the land in South Africa British subjects? The last words of the hon. Gentleman were that when he had been summoned before a jury of his countrymen, and come off with flying colours, then he hoped that we should not persist in a policy which was ruining South Africa. How on earth is the appointment of these Commissions going to ruin South Africa? There is absolutely no relevance whatever between the speech of the hon. Gentleman and the motion before the Committee. Now, really the one pin's point upon which his argument is based is his statement that as regards one of the Commissions we have appointed a gentleman to whom he takes exception, because, he says, he was indirectly or directly connected with a firm which was connected with Wernher, Beit and Company.
Which is connected with Eckstein—it is one further off than I thought—which is connected with Wernher, Beit and Company, who he is going to prove are swindlers when they summon him before a jury of his countrymen. It is upon that he has based this tremendous indictment of the South African policy of the Government —it is upon the connection of one member of the Transvaal Concessions Commission. The hon. Gentleman makes it another point of grievance against the Government that the reference to the Commission was not wide enough and did not cover the concessions in Swaziland. That is perfectly true, because a great number of those concessions go back some time and have nothing whatever to do with the immediate point we wish information upon, which is the value of the concessions given by the Transvaal Government; and up to the present time we have not assumed any authority in Swaziland. We have not annexed Swaziland. But, as no doubt the question of the future of Swaziland will shortly become one of importance, the hon. Gentleman may take it from me that the concessions in Swaziland will also have to be inquired into.
By the same people?
I do not know whether they will be inquired into by the same people; but I am certain they could not be inquired into by people more qualified than the particular Commission that was asked to examine into the limited question of the value and legality of the concessions which have been granted by the Transvaal. The concessions we have in view were known to all Members of the House. There were complaints made before the war by Uitlanders and others. It was said, for instance, that the dynamite concession was an illegal concession. That was alleged by a committee which was appointed by the Transvaal Government to inquire into the Transvaal concessions. The dynamite concession was perhaps one of the most important concessions. There was the concession to the Netherlands Railway