House Of Commons
Thursday, 21st March, 1901.
Private Bill Business
Wallasey Improvement Bill By Order
said he had to move an Instruction to the Committee to which the Wallasey Urban District Council Bill had been referred. It would be within the memory of hon. Members that during the year 1898 there was a, great agitation throughout the length and breadth of the land on the part of members of friendly societies, in regard to the matter raised by his Instruction. The agitation was due to the action of the East India Docks Company in instituting a shop club, and making it a condition of employment that their men should belong to it. They also sought to lay down a provision that such of their men as were already members of friendly societies should cease such membership. The feeling raised by that proposal was so strong that the Government appointed a Shop Clubs Committee, which reported to the House in March, 1899. It was quite clear that the general feeling of the country was entirely against the proposal of the East India Docks Company, and that compulsory shop clubs were deemed to be opposed to the interests, not only of working men, but of the great friendly societies. The Shop Clubs Committee, which was presided over by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Bordesley Division of Birmingham, and which included in its members Mr. (now Justice) Cozens- Hardy, and the Registrar General of Friendly Societies, suggested that shop clubs should in future be registered under the Friendly Societies Acts. Now that was all that was proposed by the Instruction he was moving. What would be the effect of such registration? It would be to secure that no member of the club should be deprived of any pecuniary benefit by reason of his leaving his employment. This was of the utmost importance to working men, because, in the absence of such registration, a man who had joined a shop thrift or provident club, and had been in his employment for some years and contributed to the funds of the club, might be deprived of all benefit therefrom by reason of leaving his situation, and his contributions would be lost to him. The registration would also secure that the men should have a voice in the appointment of the committee of management of the club, and that, he suggested, was only reasonable. There were further provisions to secure the proper investment of the funds of the club, and to ensure that the organisation was on a solvent basis. The Report of the Committee to which he had referred recommended that the Registrar of Friendly Societies should, before registration, satisfy himself that the scheme of the club was satisfactory, not only to the employer hut also to the workmen. In the Bill now under consideration power was taken to form a Compulsory Superannuation Fund. The Shop Clubs Committee had recommended that it should not be lawful for any em- ployer to make it a condition of employment that his workmen should join such a fund, and he certainly thought that, in any case where membership of a shop club was made compulsory, as under this Bill, the House would agree that it would only be fair and indeed necessary, in the interests of the employees, that registration, as ho suggested, should bo insisted upon. He was authorised by the National Conference of Friendly Societies to say that they unreservedly adopted the Report of the Shop Clubs Committee. Ho would like to remind the House that during the last Parliament the very clause he was now proposing was inserted in seven different private Bills, and even in the present session the Great Eastern Railway Company had accepted a similar provision, without any objection being raised on the part of the directors. That fact surely was sufficient proof that there could be no serious objection to the clause. They had been told in a circular issued by the Urban District Council of Wallasey that this proposal would render the scheme inoperative so far as the superior officers of the council were con-corned, inasmuch as it would admit the benefits to be granted under it in the form of superannuation and other allowances. But he would point out that the Wallasey Bill was not confined merely to a proposal affecting their more highly-paid officials. Their scheme was to apply to every man in their employ. He would have made no objection to the Bill had it merely provided for the superannuation of employees receiving salaries of £2 or £3 a week and upwards. There was another difficulty in dealing with questions of this nature in private Bills, and it arose from the fact that in these private; Acts the scheme itself was not set out so that the House or the Committee upstairs might judge whether or not it was fair. Instead of that the promoters of the Bill took power to set up a scheme after it had passed through the House. Was it right that anything of that kind should be allowed to be done? The promoters, in their circular, complained that if the Instruction were carried it would prevent them giving their higher-paid officials more than £200 in case of death, or a pension exceeding £50 a year on retirement, That was really not the ease, and the suggestion was merely a red herring drawn across their path. The promoters said that the Bill already provided for the registration of their scheme by the Registrar of Friendly Societies. But that provision was a sham, for all that was provided was that the Registrar should register any scheme the Urban District Council chose to put forward, whether it was good or bad. He wanted the House to say that no scheme should be registered unless it was good, and met with the approval of the Registrar of Friendly Societies. Then, again, the Wallasey Urban District Council com-plained that the clause was vague and indefinite. Surely if that were the case the Manchester Ship Canal Company would never have accepted such a clause, nor would other companies have done so. What was more, the very Instruction he was now moving went before a Committee in the last Parliament, and that Committee called before it the Registrar of Friendly Societies and asked him if it were a fact that the clause was vague and indefinite. His reply was that it was not, and that he himself personally approved of it. A clause in almost identically the same words was sent to him by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Agriculture while he held the position of Secretary to the Treasury, and ho therefore could not understand what objection there could be to it now. As he said at the beginning of his remarks, his reasons for asking the House to approve this clause were, first, that the National Conference of Friendly Societies, which met last week in Birmingham, had unanimously decided that its adoption would be in the interests of friendly societies. He would remind the House that that conference represented a membership of over three and a half millions, with a capital of over twenty-five and a half millions. It was therefore a body which had some right to be considered representative, and which certainly by its action in the past had shown itself anxious to promote the interests of the working men of this country. His second reason for asking the House to carry the Instruction was that it was in the interests of working men, whether they were members of friendly societies or not. It was not desirable that any corporation or company should have power to set up com- pulsory thrift, provident, superannuation, or shop clubs, unless they were registered in the way he had suggested, the object of such registration being, of course, to ensure that the men got fair play and substantial benefits. If men were compelled, as a condition of employment, to join such clubs, it was only fair and just that they should be protected in the way ho proposed. He begged to move.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Wallasey Improvement Bill to insert the following Clause—
No scheme for the establishment of a superannuation or provident fund under this Act shall come into operation until it has been registered by the Registrar of Friendly Societies under the Friendly Societies Act."— (Mr. Strachey.)
in opposing the Instruction on behalf of the promoters of the Bill, first explained that the Member for Mid Cheshire, who was to have undertaken the duty, was unfortunately prevented by illness from being present that afternoon, and had asked him to state the objections which were entertained to the proposal. This Bill contained a proposal to establish a fund for the purpose of providing the servants of the Council with an allowance in case of death, or with superannuation on retirement, and the principles on which the scheme was based were duly set forth in the Bill, the employees of the Council having to contribute one half of the funds required for the purpose, while the Council provided the other moiety. The promoters of the Bill, in opposing the Instruction, disclaimed altogether any hostility to the Friendly Societies Acts. They recognised, on the contrary, that those Acts were extremely useful within their proper sphere. But they suggested that the Instruction would not be at all appropriate to this Bill, inasmuch as it comprehended not only persons be-longing to the working classes, but also a large number of superior officers under the Council—gentlemen who were receiving salaries of considerable amount, and for whom, therefore, the provisions contemplated by the Friendly Societies Acts would be entirely inadequate. There were no fewer than 107 of the em- ployees of the Council who were paid by cheque and whose salaries amounted in the aggregate to £1,400 per annum. If the Bill were brought entirely under the provisions of the Friendly Societies Acts the result would be that no gross sum could be drawn by any servant of the Council exceeding £200, and no annuity exceeding £50 could be granted. The House would see, therefore, that the effect of adopting the Instruction would be to make the Bill altogether inoperative so far as the higher class officials were concerned. The hon. Member for South Somerset himself seemed to be in doubt whether or not that would be the effect of his own clause, He held in his hand the opinion of a Counsel of great eminence, to the effect that the result of the clause would be to entirely subordinate the Bill to the Friendly Societies Acts. The hon. Member had referred to the fact that he had succeeded in securing the insertion of the clause in other Bills, and ho had alluded especially to the Great Eastern Railway Company's Bill. He ventured to point out that there was no analogy whatever between railway companies or kindred industrial organisations and a public authority such as was promoting this Bill. The hon. Member might have succeeded in introducing the Instruction in other Bills, but he was informed that the concession had been obtained in such cases under great pressure, and was only made because the Bills had reached a stage at which, unless the concession was granted, there was a danger of the Bill being lost for a year. Those cases therefore ought not to be accepted as a precedent. The promoters of the Bill had gone as far as they could to meet the hon. Member, who had suggested that his desire was to secure that no scheme should be registered which was not a good scheme and approved by the Registrar of Friendly Societies. The promoters were quite willing to agree to that, and in Clause 52 they had inserted words providing that no scheme under the Act should come into operation unless it was registered by the Registrar of Friendly Societies.
It gives no discretion to the Registrar. He is bound to register any scheme presented by the Corporation.
MR. CHARLES M'ARTHUR said it was open to the Registrar of Friendly Societies to point out any features which he thought undesirable or inequitable, and he was quite sure that it was the intention of the promoters of the Bill that he should do so. The House was asked to give, a mandatory instruction to the Committee to insert this clause. He ventured to think that it should not do so, but that it should leave the matter to be threshed out before the Committee, which was the proper tribunal to settle matters in which local questions were involved. If the House would agree to send the Bill to the Committee without the proposed Instruction he promised, on behalf of the promoters, that every opportunity should be given for the discussion of the points raised by the hon. Member for South Somerset.
said it appeared to him that the arguments of the hon. Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool were vague and required elucidation. Clause 52, to which he had referred, certainly did not to his mind convey the same meaning as the instruction of the hon. Member for South Somerset. The clause distinctly stated that the Registrar must register if he were satisfied that the scheme was in accordance with the provisions of the Bill. He, therefore, would have no choice but to register so long as the terms of the Bill were complied with. But the Instruction meant something different. It meant that the Registrar must be satisfied that in certain respectsthescheme was satisfactory. One of those respects was that the fund should be largely under the management of those who paid into it, and secondly that the men should be granted fair terms on leaving their employment. Those conditions would be secured by insisting on registration as provided for by the Instruction. If they were going to allow local authorities to set up these schemes, it was only right that they should take every possible precaution to secure that the terms were fair to the men concerned. The Instruction would secure the safeguard that the Registrar himself would have to be satisfied that the men were justly dealt with under the scheme. He did not think there was any absolute need for limiting the benefits under the scheme. There was no objection to making an exception in the cases of highly-paid servants, and ho therefore hoped that the promoters of the Bill would fall into line with the practice of the House.
also hoped that the hon. Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool would not press his opposition to the Instruction. A question of far-reaching principle was involved in this matter. The point was, whether in cases in which superannuation or provident funds were established under the authority of Parliament they should, or should not, be under the supervision of the Registrar of Friendly Societies. And he was bound to say that in his opinion such supervision was very desirable, seeing that the Registrar had at his command the most skilled actuarial experience that could be obtained, and was able to apply general principles to the various conditions which might arise in connection with great companies and corporations. He thought there must be some mistake in the interpretation which the hon. Member told them had been placed upon the legal bearing of the Instruction. So far as he gathered, the effect of the Instruction would be to secure registration by the Registrar of Friendly Societies merely, and it would not involve registration under the Friendly Societies Act. The clause had become common in the Bills of great railway companies, and ho saw no reason why it should not find a place also in the Bills of corporations. The Wallasley Urban District Council might not be a very great corporation, but there was a great principle involved, and it was desirable that it should be applied to all corporations, whether great or small.
who was almost inaudible from the Press gallery, was understood to advocate giving the Committee a free hand in the matter, and to point out that the Local Government Board was always represented before Committees dealing with these Bills. He hoped the Instruction would be rejected.
supported the Instruction, although he regretted the proposals contained in the Bill, fearing that the result of their adoption would be to postpone indefinitely that general scheme of old age pensions of which they had heard so much outside the House and seen so little inside it. The whole Bill seemed to have been loosely drawn, and his inclination would be to move its rejection altogether, in order to give the promoters time to reframe it in a more satisfactory manner, it seemed to him that if a, scheme of this kind we; established at all, it should be open to every class of workmen under the Council, and that it should not be in the power of anyone to say that certain well-paid employees should benefit under it, while the less we paid might be excluded from it. Then, again, the scheme proposed to deprive of all benefit from the fund any employee of the Council who resigned his position in order to escape being dismissed for fraud, dishonesty, or misconduct, He respectfully submitted that that was too wide a power to give to any council. If a man were dismissed for misconduct, surely the dismissal was the punishment, and he ought not to be still further penalised by losing any benefit from a fund to which ho had contributed during his service. The hon. Member for South Somerset had suggested that one of his objects was to safeguard the interests of the men by ensuring that the fund was actuarially sound. That, no doubt, was very important. He trusted that the House would agree to the Instruction, and when the Bill came back from the Committee, if it were still defective, they could refuse to pass it into law, and thus give the promoters time to put it in more acceptable form.
thought the House would be disposed to agree with his hon. friend that the Instruction was vague and indefinite. Even the hon. Member for the Eye Division of Suffolk disagreed with the hon. Member for South Somerset as to what would be its effect. The hon. Member who moved the Instruction said his point was to have the scheme registered under the Friendly Societies Acts, and that was the real matter in dispute between him and the promoters of the Bill. There was a clause in the Bill which left it open to the Registrar of Friendly Societies to register the scheme, but the promoters were afraid that, if the Friendly Societies Acts were incorporated in the Bill, certain results would be, produced which were wholly unsuitable to the state of affairs in Wallasey. That would be wholly inapplicable to the case of officials who were drawing high salaries, and who served the borough in important positions. The argument of the promoters of the Bill was that if the Instruction of the hon. Member for South Somerset was accepted it would shut out from the scheme certain benefits 'which the promoters of the Bill intended to confer upon their servants. He did not believe that that was an object which the hon. Member himself would desire to see. He was opposed to the Instruction for the reason that the whole question would be and must be raised before the Committee to which the Bill had already been referred. The Registrar of Friendly Societies had reported against one of the clauses of the Bill—Clause 50—and that Report would be laid before, the Committee. The Committee would have an opportunity of summoning Mr. Braybrooke and hearing his evidence—an opportunity which they had not got in the House; and the Committee would thus be able to insert a clause which would go as far as possible to meet the views of the hon. Member for South Somerset. He might say that the Friendly Societies Act was to be incorporated in certain respects and not in others. That could not be done at the present stage, where they must either incorporate the whole Act or not at all. There is a via media which was the solution of the difficulty, but it could not be taken that afternoon. For that reason he would move, the rejection of the Instruction, and leave it to the Committee, after hearing the evidence of Mr. Braybrooke, to say whether all the sections of the Friendly Societies Act were or were not applicable to the particular circumstances, of this case.
said there was no doubt considerable dissatisfaction had been raised throughout the country in regard to these superannuation schemes by local bodies, railway companies, and others. He thought the House was indebted to those who had brought them before the House before being sent to Committee upstairs, and that this should be a lesson to the local bodies to frame their schemes more carefully. In this Bill there wore eleven clauses under the head "Superannuation," and he could see that some of the phraseology was extremely crude and would have to be carefully considered in Committee. The right hon. Gentleman had stated that the Registrar of Friendly Societies had already objected to one of the clauses—Clause 50—but all of them would have to be carefully looked at. He thought that the debate should be adjourned so as to give an opportunity to the promoters of the Bill and hon. Members who objected to some of its provisions for consultation.
MR. CHARLES McARTHUR said he was authorised by the promoters of the Bill to state that they were willing that the Bill should be so amended that the Registrar of Friendly Societies should have the discretion of saying whether the conditions under the Bill were fairly reasonable.
did not propose to go over the ground already covered by hon. Members who had spoken, but he represented a certain proportion of working men in Ireland, and he agreed with the mover of the motion. All those questions regarding superannuation ought to bo carefully discussed. There were often very curious
AYES.
| ||
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) | Causton, Richard Knight | Hayden, John Patrick |
Allan, William (Gateshead) | Clancy, John Joseph | Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale- |
Ambrose, Robert | Colville, John | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. C. H. |
Ashton, Thomas Gair | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) |
Austin, Sir John | Crean, Eugene | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) |
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Cullinan, J. | Joyce, Michael |
Bell, Richard | Daly, James | Kennedy, Patrick James |
Bignold, Arthur | Dillon, John | Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth |
Black, Alexander William | Doogan, P. C. | Kitson, Sir James |
Blake, Edward | Duffy, William, J. | Lambert, George |
Boland, John | Duncan, James. H. | Layland-Barratt, Francis |
Boyle, James | Ellis, John Edward | Leamy, Edmund |
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Farrell, James Patrick | Leigh, Sir Joseph |
Burt, Thomas | Ffrench, Peter | Lewis, John Herbert |
Buxton, Sydney Charles | Gilhooly, James | Lundon, W. |
Cameron, Robert | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. |
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Grant, Corrie | M'Cann, James |
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir: H. | Hammond, John | M'Crae, George |
Carew, James Laurence | Hardie, J K. (Merthyr Tydvil | M'Fadden, Edward |
clauses in some of these "omnibus" or so-called Improvement Bills which superseded the ordinary law of the land. As the Gentleman in charge of the Bill was absent, that was a reason why the debate should be adjourned and an opportunity be given for conference. But there were certain penal clauses in regard to dairies and tuberculosis to which he wished to refer.
Order, order! The hon. Member must confine his remarks to the Instruction moved.
MR. FIELD said that the other day, in connection with a Great Eastern Railway Bill, an Instruction proposed to be moved had been withdrawn and the promoters had agreed to have a conference in order that the clause objected to should be amended. He moved the adjournment of the debate to permit of a conference between the promoters and those who took a different view from them in regard to this exceedingly important matter.
seconded the Amendment.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."— ( Mr. Field.)
But Mr. SPEAKER being of opinion that the motion was an abuse of the rules of the House, put the Question thereon forthwith to the House.
The House divided:—Ayes, 102; Noes, 175. (Division List No. 82.)
M' Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N | Stevenson, Francis S. |
Mansfield, Horace Kendall | O'Malley, William | Sullivan, Donal |
Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe | O'Mara, James | Taylor, Theodore Cooke |
Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
Murphy, J. | O'Shee, James John | Thomas, J. A. (Gl'm'rg'n.Govvr |
Nannetti, Joseph P. | Partington, Oswald | Thompson, E. C.(Monaghan, N. |
Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Pemberton, John S. G. | Thomson, F. W. (York, W.K.) |
O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) | Power, Patrick Joseph | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.) | Priestley, Arthur | Weir, lames Galloway |
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Reddy, M. | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. | Redmond, John E.(Waterford) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
O'Doherty, William | Redmond, William (Clare) | Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) |
O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | Yoxall, James Henry |
O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Roche, John | |
O'Dowd, John | Shipman, Dr. John G. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.Field and Captain Donclan. |
O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Soares, Ernest J. |
NOES.
| ||
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Flower Ernest | Parkes, Ebenezer |
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Gladstone, RtHn. Herbert John | Paulton, James Mellor |
Allsopp, Hon. George | Graham, Henry Robert | Percy, Earl |
Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Perk's, Robert William |
Arrol, Sir William | Groves, James Grimble | Philipps, John Wynford |
Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Pierpoint, Robert |
Bailey, James (Walworth) | Gurdon, Sir William Brampton | Pilkington, Richard |
Bain, Colonel James Robert | Hain, Edward | Pirie, Duncan V. |
Baldwin, Alfred | Halsey, Thomas Frederick | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
Balfour, RtHn. Gerald W (Leeds | Banbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. | Plummer, Walter R. |
Banbury, Frederick George | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Price, Robert John |
Barlow, John Emmott | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor) | Henderson. Alexander | Randles, John S. |
Hartley, George C. T. | Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampstead | Ratcliffe, R. F. |
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Hogg, Lindsay | Reid, James (Greenock) |
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield,Brightsd. | Rickett, J. Compton |
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Horner, Frederic William | Kidley, Hon. M. W(Stalybridge |
Boulnois, Edmund | Howard, Capt. J. (Kent, Favers. | Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green) |
Brigg, John | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) | Rigg, Richard |
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Hozier, Hon. James Henry C. | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
Brown, Alex. H. (Shropshire | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Round, James |
Caine, William Sproston | Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.) | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
Caldwell, James | Jacoby, James Alfred | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lines.) | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbysl).) | Joicey, Sir James | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
Cawley, Frederick | Kearley, Hudson E. | Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles |
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Kimber, Henry | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albeit |
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Knowles, Lees | Schwann, Charles E. |
Chapman, Edward | Law, Andrew Bonar | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone,W.) |
Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Lawson, John Grant | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
Ceilings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Leveson-Cower, Fredk. N. S. | Smith, H.C.(North'mb. Tynes |
Crombie, John William | Lock wood, Lt.-Col. A. R. | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. |
Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Bong, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.) | Spear, John Ward |
Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Lonsdale John Brownlee | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
Dickson, Charles Scott | Lowther, Rt Hn JW (Cum. Penr. | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield | Macartney, Rt. Hn. W G Ellison | Tennant, Harold John |
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Maconochie, A. W. | Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) |
Doxford, Sir William Theodore | M'Kenna, Reginald | Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hast'gs |
Elibank, Master of | M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire) | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
Elliot Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Majendie, James A. H. | Thornton, Percy M. |
Emmott, Alfred | Melville, Beresford Valentine | Tomkinson, Jame |
Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Middlemore, J. Throgmorton | Valentia, Viscount |
Fardell, Sir T. George | Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. | Vincent, Col. Sir C.F.H. (Shef'd |
Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Morton, Arthur H. A. (Dept ford | Walker, Col. William Hail |
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. | Mount, William Arthur | Wallace, Robert |
Fenwick, Charles | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | Walrond, Rt. Hn Sir Wm. H. |
Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r | Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
Finch, George H. | Murray, Col Wyndham (Bath) | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Myers, William Henry | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
Fisher, William Hayes | Nicholson, William Graham | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A | Nicol, Donald Ninian | Welby, Lt-Col. A.C.E (Taunt'n, |
Flanuery, Sir Fortescue | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | Whiteley, George (York, W. R.) |
Fletcher, Sir Henry | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L |
Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) | Wilson-Todd. Wm. H. (Yorks.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Strachey and Mr. Chas. M'Arthur. |
Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) | Wodehouse, Hn. Armine (Essex | |
Williams, Rt Hn J. Powell-(Bir. | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart. | |
Willox, Sir John Archibald | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong | |
Wilson, John (Glasgow) | Young, Commander (Berks, E.) |
Original Question put.
AYES.
| ||
Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) | Groves, James Grimble | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | O'Shee, James John |
Allan, William (Gateshead) | Hammond, John | Partington, Oswald |
Ambrose, Robert | Hardie, J. K. (Merthyr Tydvil | Pemberton, John S. G. |
Austin, Sir John | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Perks, Robert William |
Baldwin, Alfred | Hayden, John Patrick | Philipps, John Wynford |
Barlow, John Emmott | Haydne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Pirie, Duncan V. |
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Plummer, Walter R. |
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Hogg, Lindsay | Priestley, Arthur |
Bell, Richard | Holland, William Henry | Randles, John S. |
Black, Alexander William | Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside | Ratcliffe, R. F. |
Blake, Edward | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Rea, Russell |
Boland, John | Hozier, Hon. Jas. Henry Cecil | Reddy, M. |
Boyle, James | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford |
Brigg, John | Jacoby, James Alfred | Redmond, William (Clare) |
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Joicey, Sir James | Rickett, J. Compton |
Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh) | Joyce, Michael | Rigg, Richard |
Bryee, Rt. Hon. James | Kearley, Hudson E. | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
Burke, E. Haviland- | Kennedy, Patrick James | Roche, John |
Buxton, Sydney Charles | Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
Caine, William Sproston | Kitson, Sir James | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alex. |
Caldwell, James | Lambert, George | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
Cameron, Robert | Layland- Barratt, Francis | Schwann, Charles E. |
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Leamy, Edmund | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
Carew, James Laurence | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
Cawley, Frederick | Leng, Sir John | Soares, Ernest J. |
Clancy, John Joseph | Leveson-Gower, Fred. N. S. | Spear, John Ward |
Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Lewis, John Herbert | Stevenson, Francis S. |
Colville, John | Lloyd-George, David | Sullivan, Donal |
Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. | Taylor, Theodore Cooke |
Crean, Eugene | Lundon, W. | Tennant, Harold John |
Crombie, John William | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.) |
Daly, James | M'Cann, James | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
Davies, M.Vaughan-(Cardigan | M'Crae, George | Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings |
Dilke, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles | M'Fadden, Edward | Thomas, J. A (Glamorgan Gower |
Dillon, John | M'Kenna, Reginald | Thompson, E. C. (Monaghan, N. |
Donelan, Captain A. | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) |
Doogan, P. C. | M'Laren, Charles Benjamin | Tomkinson, James |
Douglas, Chas. M. (Lanark) | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
Duffy, William J. | Mappin, Sir Fredk. Thorpe | Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield |
Duncan, James H. | Markham, Arthur Basil | Wallace, Robert |
Elibank, Master of | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh. | Walrond, Rt. Hn Sir William H. |
Emmott, Alfred | Melville, Beresford Valentine | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. |
Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidst.) | Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford | Warner, Thos. Courtenay T. |
Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Murphy, J. | Wason, John C. (Orkney) |
Farrell, James Patrick | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Weir, James Galloway |
Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton |
Fenwick, Charles | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Whiteley, Geo. (York, W.R.) |
Ffrench, Peter | O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
Field, William | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
Finch, George H. | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
Flower, Ernest | O'Doherty, William | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
Flynn, James Christopher | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
Furness, Sir Christopher | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Wodehouse, Hn. Arimine(Essex |
Garfit, William | O'Dowd, John | Young, Commander (Berks, E.) |
Gilhooly, James | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) |
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John | O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.) | Yoxall, James Henry |
Goudard, Daniel Ford | O'Malley, William | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Strachey and Mr. Harry Samuel. |
Grant, Corrie | O'Mara, James | |
Greville, Hon. Ronald | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay |
The House divided:—Ayes, 18G; Noes, 114. (Division List No. 83.)
NOES.
| ||
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Gibbs, Hn.A.G.H.(City of Lond. | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipper'ry Mid |
Allsopp, Hon. George | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
Anson, Sir William Reynell | Green, Walford D. (Wednesbury | Paulton, James Mellor |
Arrol, Sir William | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Percy, Earl |
Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis | Hain, Edward | Pierpoint, Robert |
Ashton, Thomas Gair | Halsey, Thomas Frederick | Pryce-Jones, Lt.- Col. Edward |
Bailey, James (Walworth) | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. | Reid, James (Greenock) |
Bain, Colonel James Robert | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge |
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W.(Leeds) | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Ridley, S. Forde (BethnalGreen |
Banbury, Frederick George | Henderson, Alexander | Round, James |
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor | Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
Bartley, George C. T. | Horner, Frederick William | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Howard, Capt J. (Kent, Faversh. | Sandys, Lt.-Col.Thomas Myles |
Bignold, A. | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) | Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) |
Bill, Charles | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
Boulnois, Edmund | Hutton, John (Yorks. N.R.) | Smith, H. C. (Northmb, Tyneside |
Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex | Jebb, Sir Richard Claver house | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks) |
Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh. | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
Burt, Thomas | Kimber, Henry | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. | Knowles, Lees | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Law, Andrew Bonar | Thorburn Sir Walter |
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) | Lawrence, William F. | Thornton, Percy M. |
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Lawson, John Grant | Tufnell, Lieut.- Col. Edward |
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. | Valentia, Viscount |
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Walker, Col. William Hall |
Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Lowther, Rt. Hn. J. W. (Cum. Penr | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
Cullinan, J. | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne |
Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
Dickson, Charles Scott | Macartney, Rt. Hn. W.G. Ellison | Williams, Rt Hn. J Powell-(B'rm |
Dimsdale, Sir Jos. Cock field | Maconochie, A. W. | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
Doxford, Sir Wm. Theodore | Middlemore, J. Throgmorton | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
Fardell, Sir T. George | Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong |
Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J. (Manc'r) | Mount, William Arthur | |
Fielden, Edw. Brocklehurst | Mowbray, Sir Robert G. C. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Charles M'Arthur and Colonel Pilkington. |
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) | |
Fisher, William Hayes | Myers, William Henry | |
Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon | Nicholson, William Graham | |
Fletcher, Sir Henry | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask whether it is allowable for a teller to stand at the door and say, "Those who are in favour of friendly societies come to the Aye Lobby."
That is not a point of order, nor do I suppose that such a statement could mislead any hon. Member.
I am quite sure it did. Ordered, That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Wallasey Improvement Bill to insert the following clause—
No scheme for the establishment of a superannuation or provident fund under this Act shall come into operation until it has been registered by the Registrar of Friendly Societies under the Friendly Societies Act.
Private Bills (Standing Order 62 Complied With)
MR. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of
Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, Standing Order No. G2 has been complied with, viz: —
- Glasgow and South Western Railway Bill.
- Hull, Barnsley, and West Riding Junction Railway and Dock Bill.
- Metropolitan Railway Bill.
- North-Eastern Railway Bill.
Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time.
Private Bills (Standing Order 63 Complied With)
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof. Standing Order No.63 has been complied with, viz.:
Notting Hill Electric Lighting Bill.
Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.
Private Bill Petition Lords (Standing Orders Complied With)
MR. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for the Worcester Tramways Bill, reported by the Chairman of Ways and Means as intended to originate in the House of Lords, the Standing Orders have been complied with.
London County Council (Tramways And Street W1denings) Bill
"To enable the London County Council to construct new tramways and to reconstruct and alter tramways in the county of London; to work tramways by electric traction; and to make new streets and street improvements; and for other purposes," read the first time; to be read a second time.
Metropolitan Police Provisional Order Bill (By Order)
Read a second time, and committed.
Railway Bills (Group I)
Mr. Jeffreys reported from the Committee on Croup I of Railway Bills, That the parties opposing the London. Tilbury, and Southend Railway Bill had stated that the evidence of A. Horsburgh Campbell, Surveyor to the Urban District Council of East Ham, was essential to their case; and it having been proved that his attendance could not be procured without the intervention of the House, he had been instructed to move that the said A. Horsburgh Campbell do attend the said Committee To-morrow, at half past Eleven of the clock.
Ordered, That A. Horsburgh Campbell do attend the Committee on Group 1 of Railway Bills To-morrow, at half-past Eleven of the clock.
Petitions
Beer Bill
Petition from Bowes, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
Elementary Education (Higher Grade And Evening Continuation Schools)
Petition from Finchley, for alteration of Law; to lie upon the Table.
Parliamentary Franchise
Petition from West Woodburn, for extension to women; to lie upon the Table.
Poor Law Officers' Superannuation Act, 1896
Petitions for alteration of Law from Atcham and Milton next Sitting bourne; to lie upon the Table.
Sale Of Intoxicating Liquors To Children Bill
Petitions in favour, from Blaenavon; Spennymoor; Bowden Close; Hirwain (two); Byers Green; Bishop Auckland (eight); Luton (two); Whittington Moor; Liverpool (five); Salford (seven); Copford; Halifax (two); Bedfordshire; Leighton Buzzard; Durham; Pendleton (three); South Norwood (two); East Ham; Berwick-on-Tweed; Goole; Newcastle-on-Tync (six); Nottingham (two); Wishaw; Benwell; Camper-down; Willington Quay; Cambusnethan; Overtown; Cardiff' (ten); Chelmsford; St. Marylebone; Galashiels; Rhondda Valley; Ferndale; Hollinwood; Henley-on-Thames; Wolverhampton; Hawk-hurst: Regent's Park; Edinburgh (two); Port Glasgow; Ticehurst; Stockport (two); Burwash Weald; Kirkintilloch (two); Sheffield (six); Jamestown; Birmingham (eight); Croydon; Birkenhead (two); Wigton; Newmilns; Clifton; Oswestry; Norwich, (five); St. Budeaux; Wombwell (three); Oldham; Kingsteignton; Bury (three); West Salford; Hayfield; Woolfold; Clydebank; Kirkwall (two); Crosth-waite; Great Salkeld; Penrith; Weaste; Aston; Pontefract; Keswick: Loft-house: Mirfield (three); Pudsey (three); Stanningley (two); Dewsbury; Llwyny-pia; Leeds (two); Churwell; Horsforth; Barnsley; Blodeuyny Duffryn; Aldingbourne; ilfracombe; Wrock wardine Wood; Hornsey Rise; Islington; Ex-mouth (six); Caledonian Road; Dept-ford Park; Patricroft; Walton Park; Greenock (four); Clevedon; Annan; Bradford; Ealing; Kilmarnock; Skegness; Sidmouth; Southend; Lymin-ster; Bristol (three); Hexham; Holly park; Hunwick; Willington; Brecon; Aylestone; Woolwich; Bagalate: Rochdale (three); Heywood; Fording bridge (two); Wakefield (two); Elgin (three); Crowborough; Chelsea; Withington (two); Lancaster (three); Glasgow (eight); Morison; Warmby; Dundee (two); St. Albans; East Dulwich; Corsham (two); Balsall Heath; Sted-ham; West Norwood; Forest Hill (two); Catford; Hastings; Ffynnon Croew; Mold Junction: Rossett; Peterhead; Easebourne; Loughborough Park; Old-land Common; Devizes; Stockbridge; Wandsworth; and Fishbourne; to lie upon the Table.
Sale Of Intoxicating Liquors To Children Bill And Sale Of Intoxicating Liquors To Children (Scotland) Bill
Petition from Perth, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
Sale Of Intoxicating Liquors To Children (Scotland) Bill
Petitions in favour, from Dundee; Lochee; Newmilns (two); Kinneil; Borrows to unness; Uphall; Whitburn (two); Kirkintilloch; Galashiels (two); Langton; Hawick; Glasgow (three); Kirkwall; Peebles; Erzie; Bowling; Greenock (six); Aberdeen (two); Rattray; Sandwick (five); and Charlestown; to lie upon the Table.
Returns, Reports, Etc
Wexford County Council V Local Government Board
Return [presented 20th March] to be printed. [No. 89.]
Army (Royal Military Academy, Woolwich)
Copy presented, of Report of the Board of Visitors for 1900 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Army (Royal Military College, Sandhurst)
Copy presented, of Report of the Board of Visitors for 1900 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Army
Copy presented, of Finding of a Court of Inquiry, held at Barberton on the 25th September. 1900, to investigate the circumstances under which Lieutenant-Colonel B. E. Spragge, D.S.O., 13th Battalion Imperial Yeomanry, and others, became prisoners of war [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Revenue And Expenditure (England, Scotland, And Ireland)
Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 19th March; Mr. Lough]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 90.]
Imperial Revenue (Collection And Expenditure) (Great Britain And Ireland)
Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 19th March, Mr. Lough]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 91.]
Charity Commission (England And Wales)
Copy presented, of Forty-eighth Report of the Charity Commissioners for England and Wales [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Trade Reports (Annual Series)
Copies presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports. Annual Series, Nos. 2,562 to 2,564 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Controverted Elections (Maidstone)
Ordered, That the Copy of the Judges' Report and Minutes of Evidence in the Maidstone Election Trial be printed. [No. 92.]—( Mr. Attorney General.)
Oral Answers To Questions
Questions
South African War—Peace Negotiations With General Botha
I wish to ask the Colonial Secretary whether he can say when the Papers relating to the recent negotiations in South Africa will be distributed to Members. He will understand our desire to see them.
I quite understand the desire of the right hon. Gentleman, which, I think, is perfectly reasonable. There has been a little delay owing to the necessity for us to telegraph to Lord Kitchener for the full text of his communication to General Botha. That only reached us this morning. The Papers are now in the hands of the printers, and I am told they will be delivered to-morrow, by the time the House meets, I hope.
Transvaal Civil Administration— Mr Douglas Forster
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether Mr. Douglas Forster has been appointed to a legal post in the Transvaal by or with the knowledge of Sir Alfred Milner; and, if so, what are his duties and his salary; whether he is the same person who, under the name of Adolphus Ellis, was manager of a theatrical company in the Transvaal; and what are his qualifications for the office which he holds.
I have no information on this matter. If the hon. Gentleman wishes me to do so, I am prepared to make inquiries of Sir Alfred Milner; but I would ask him to consider whether, in view of the enormous work now imposed on Sir Alfred, he would wish me to inquire in this case unless he has some evidence to show that Sir Alfred is in any way whatever connected with it.
Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire whether the appointment has been made by any subordinate officer? The right hon. Gentleman will remember that during the last session he spoke to me about this very man.
My present information is confined to an answer given by my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for War, which was to the effect, I think, that this gentle- man had been employed by Lord Roberts. As far as I understand the matter, the gentleman has no connection whatever with Sir Alfred Milner.
Boer Prisoners—Mrs Hertzog
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it has been brought to his knowledge that Albert Hertzog, a child of two years of age, has lately been released from imprisonment in the camp at Port Elizabeth, but that his mother is still a prisoner in the same camp; whether Mrs. Hertzog is the wife of Judge Hertzog, lately a member of the High Court at Bloemfontein; and whether there is any good reason of State why she should not be permitted to join her child.
I have no information, but will inquire.
British South Africa Company's Accounts
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received from the British South Africa Company, as required by its charter, accounts for the financial years ending 31st March, 1899, and 1900, and Estimates of revenue and expenditure for the year ending 31st March, 1901; and when they will be laid upon the Table.
The accounts for the financial years ended the 31st March, 1899 and 1900, have not yet been received, but will be asked for at once. I have received the Estimates of revenue and expenditure for the year ending 31st March, 1901, and they will be laid on the Table.
Responsibility For Concentration Of Stores At Ladysmith
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he can state the name of the officer in South Africa who ordered military stores to be concentrated at Ladysmith; whether he was acting on instructions from home or on his own responsibility, and at what date was the concentration of such stores commenced.
No, Sir, I cannot, within the limits of a reply to a question, adjust the responsibility as to the concentration of stores at Ladysmith between officers at home and on the spot.
Will this question come within the purview of the inquiry on the war?
No terms of reference have yet been suggested, but if an inquiry takes place this point, among many others, might come within it.
Did the right hon. Gentleman say "if" or "when" the inquiry takes place?
Any inquiry on that subject should be addressed to my right hon. friend the First Lord of the Treasury.
Soldiers' Widows' Pensions
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the Government scheme of pensions to widows and orphans of those who lose their lives in South Africa will include the widows of those who married off the strength; whether the Government allowances will be granted irrespective of life annuities already given by outside funds, and from what date will the pensions be payable and through what channel will they be remitted.
The pensions will only be given to women on the married establishment, including the wives of men of the Reserve, Militia, Yeomanry, and Volunteers married before mobilisation. The pensions will be given irrespective of annuities already given by outside funds. The pensions will be given from the 1st July. The channel of payment has not yet been settled.
Alleged Boer Atrocity At Taaibosch
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he has any information showing that, on 19th February, the Boers, after capturing a train at Taai- bosch, fired upon the passengers, black and white, killing hundreds as they lay maimed and wounded in the wreckage.
I have no official information of the matter alluded to.
As this statement has been widely circulated, will the noble Lord take steps to ascertain whether there is any truth in it?
If there is any truth in it we shall have official information.
Comforts For The Troops
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the telegram from Lord Kitchener asking for comforts for the troops in South Africa, he will arrange that all such comforts shall be sent out free of cost to the sender; and, if so, whether small parcels can also be sent post free.
Boxes and parcels, if sent carriage paid to the Embarking Staff Officer, Empress Dock, Southampton, will be forwarded without further charge to the corps or individual to whom they are addressed.
May I ask how long these parcels will take to get to the troops, and whether there is any chance of their being blocked at Durban or Cape Town?
There are reasons for which I am not responsible which occasionally prevent trains from going up north.
Is it not the fact that many of the parcels sent in this way have been five months on the road, whereas those sent through the Post Office have gone through without any delay at all?
[No answer was given.]
Can small parcels be sent post free?
That is a question which would have to be referred to South Africa, as the Colonial Government would be responsible for part of the payment. We should have to get their consent.
Will you endeavour to do so?
[No answer was given.]
I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether, in view of the approach of winter in South Africa, care will be taken to provide the troops with a sufficient supply of flannel underclothing.
Yes, Sir. Large supplies of flannel shirts, woollen drawers, and jerseys have been sent out.
Rejected Mark Iv Bullets
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, in view of the fact that fifty millions Mark IV. bullets have been manufactured, and that four and a half millions have been broken up because they were useless, will he state what has been done with the remaining forty-five and a half millions.
In, the first place I am not sure that the hon. Member's figures are correct.
I know they are.
These bullets have been made up into cartridges, which are being used for practice purposes.
Are they dum-dum or soft-nosed bullets?
Have all these bullets that were sent out to South Africa been brought back again?
No, Sir.
I again ask the noble Lord whether these bullets were soft-nosed or dum-dum bullets.
Order, order!
Where were they made?
That does not arise out of the question.
Soldiers' Kits
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been directed to the fact that infantry soldiers are only allowed two shirts in their kit, and whether, in view of the complaints made as to the inadequacy of this supply, he purposes making any additions thereto.
This matter has been very carefully considered, and it has not been held necessary to make any change.
Have any complaints been received from the men or from medical officers?
Not that I know of.
Yeomanry Training
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, seeing that the majority of Yeomanry regiments come out for their annual training in May, whether he can now state when the Army Order will be published giving the requirements of the War Office this year with respect to the period of training, camping out, uniform, and amount of recruiting, in order to allow the necessary arrangements to be made in reasonable time by Colonels and Adjutants of Yeomanry.
The Army Order is being drafted with all possible speed, but I must ask for a few days law.
Boy Recruit
I beg to ask the Secretary for War whether his attention has been called to the case of George Harold Over, recently charged before the Lambeth magistrate I with being an absentee from the East Surrey Militia, when it was elicited that Over was only fourteen years old, though serving as a full-grown private soldier; and whether the conduct of the medical officer responsible for having passed him will receive any official notice from the military authorities.
I have inquired into this case. Over gave his age as seventeen years four months. His height was 5 feet 3¼ inches, chest measurement thirty-two inches, and weight 108 pounds. The medical officer considered his appearance and physical equivalent as being that of a youth of seventeen years and three months. The boy has been ordered to be discharged.
Ebrington Barracks, Londonderry
I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he will state the cause of the delay in bringing to a completion the enlargement of the Ebrington Barracks in Londonderry, with a view to having that place established as a military headquarters, and if he can say, at the present rate of progress, when the extension will be completed and the headquarters duly established, as so repeatedly promised.
This is one of the numerous cases of delay caused by the difficulties which meet the War Department in the purchase of land for military purposes. Contracts for all the principal buildings are now in hand, and it is hoped to complete the extension by June, 1902.
Aldershot Army School
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the suicide of an Army schoolmaster at Aldershot on 6th March, stated at the inquest to be due to overwork in an understaffed school for excessively long hours, 8.30 a.m. to 8.30 p.m., steps may be taken by the War Office to improve the conditions of service in Army schools, so as to attract to Army schools an adequate supply of teachers, and ensure that they shall not be required to work in school for unreasonably long hours.
An Inter-Departmental Committee has recently been appointed to consider questions dealing with Army schoolmasters, and amongst them the adequacy of the staff.
Dingwall Barrack Accommodation
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that although the regimental depot for the 3rd Battalion Seaforth Highlanders, Ross-shire Militia, is at Dingwall, barrack accommodation is not adequate, part only of the staff being quartered at Dingwall and the rest of the staff and men at Fort George; and will he consider the expediency of erecting barracks on one or other of the sites in the immediate vicinity of the town, so that the whole of the staff and men may be accommodated in the county town.
I have nothing to add to the replies given to similar questions put by the hon. Member on several previous occasions.
Scottish Volunteer Artillery
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether it is the intention of the Government to re-arm the Scotch Volunteer Artillery with the 4·7 guns; and, if so, can he state when this is likely to he carried out.
Some Scotch Volunteer batteries will be included amongst the Volunteer batteries to be re-armed with the 4·7 guns. I cannot say at present when this will be carried out.
Wreck Of Hms "Sybille"
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what officers, besides the captain, and what number of bluejackets and marines respectively belonging to H.M.S. "Sybille" were on duty on shore when that ship was wrecked; and whether the Admiralty have information to the effect that the captain of the ship has since specially complimented the engineer and stokers for saving all the heavy guns under very difficult circumstances when the ship was ashore.
The information received at the Admiralty is to the effect that the captain, two lieutenants, and fifty men were anded. Captain Williams, in his evidence before the Court-Martial, remarked that the work in connection with saving the guns reflected great credit on Mr. Dawson, assistant engineer, and his party of stokers. The Court added the following rider to the sentence—
"The Court are of opinion that every possible effort was made to save the ship after she first struck, and that good order and discipline were maintained under trying and difficult circumstances, and that the salvage operations were conducted in a manner creditable to all the officers and men taking part therein."
Naval Construction
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what was the amount spent upon new construction in the nine months ending respectively on the 31st December, 1899, and the 31st December, 1900.
The amount spent upon new construction in the nine months ending the 31st December, 1899, was £4,256,43 and in the nine months ending the 31st December, 1900, £5.182,883.
China: Anglo-Russian Dispute At Tientsin
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether General Barrow ordered the Russians to be opposed by force of arms in regard to the dispute over the railway at Tientsin; and, if so, why such order was not executed.
So far as I know, all orders issued by General Barrow have been executed; but his action in this instance, as I before said, was strictly limited to the protection of British rights on ground he believed to be property of the railway.
I beg to ask the Leader of the House whether he has any announcement to make as to the negotiations between Russia and this country.
No, Sir; I have no statement to make.
I understand a statement has been made in another place.
Oh, we shall hear it next week.
May I ask the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether it is not the case that a statement has been made by the Secretary of State in another place? I think we ought to know it.
I have not the least doubt that my noble friend had notice given him, and if the hon. Member will give me notice of a question I shall be happy to answer it.
Surely, Mr Speaker, the House of Commons is entitled to hear some hours afterwards—
The hon. Member is not entitled to comment on the answer of the noble Lord. This is not the time for comment.
I understand that no notice could be given because this: question relates to negotiations which were conducted to-day.
I beg to ask the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs a question, of which I have given private notice, whether His Majesty's Government has any information as to the despatch or the bringing up of reinforcements of the British troops at Tientsin, and whether additional British troops have reached Tientsin yesterday or to-day, or are expected to arrive there; and whether the Russian general has; issued a statement that no settlement is possible except on the condition of the withdrawal of the British troops.
If the hon. Member will allow me I shall answer the question. [Opposition cries of "Why?"] The hon. Member put a question as to the British troops in China, and those troops are under my orders. The answer to the first question is in the negative. The reply to the second question is that a certain number of white troops have been substituted for certain of the native Indian troops stationed at Tientsin. In reply to the third question, such a statement is reported to have been made, but I am not aware that it is authentic.
Though the noble Lord the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs is, of course, entitled to ask for notice of any question put to him, still I would ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether some Member of the Government could not make a statement as to what is going on in China, seeing that a statement on that subject has been made in another place.
The right hon. Gentleman and the House appear to be under the impression that we are deliberately concealing something from the House which we know to have been given to the other House, I have not the smallest idea of what the communication was that was made to the other House.
Nor have I.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether in future he can make arrangements that when important communications on foreign affairs are made in the other House they shall also be made in this House?
We are always anxious that this House should have the earliest information on all points, but it would be practically impossible to lay down a rule that a question should never be answered in the House of Lords without previous notice to us here.
May I ask whether an arrangement has been arrived at whereby both Russian and British troops are to retire from the disputed territory, that matters are to be referred to Count von Waldersee, and that an apology is to be offered by the party found to be in the wrong?
Was not a full statement made by the Foreign Secretary in the other House at half-past four o'clock in answer to Earl Spencer?
This is the first intimation I have received of it. I have no doubt that if the hon. Gentleman says it is so it is true, but I am not aware of it.
Arising out of the answer of the noble Lord, I should like to ask whether the substitution of British white troops for the native troops who were at Tientsin is due to the fact that friction exists between the French and British troops there?
[No answer was returned.]
Cannot the First Lord of the Treasury get the House out of its difficulty by deputing the noble Lord the Under Secretary to go down to the other House and see his chief?
Order, order! Hon. Members are proceeding to debate the whole question. Some other opportunity must be taken for that.
Cannot I have an answer to the specific question I put?
[No reply was given.]
Ministers ought to be in this House, and not in the other House.
Russo-Chinese Agreement On Manchuria
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the assurances given by Count Lamsdorff, on 6th February, 1901, to the British Ambassador at St. Petersburg, regarding the Russo-Chinese Agreement as to Manchuria, referred to an agreement made at Port Arthur between the Russian and Chinese local representatives on 22nd November, 1900, and not the principal agreement made at Peking and received at St. Petersburg after 6th February.
In the opinion of His Majesty's Government the statement made by Count Lamsdorff on the 6th of February, and confirmed by him on the 27th. is applicable to any agreement with regard to Manchuria between the Russian and Chinese Governments.
The Yang-Tsze Viceroys
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, in view of the services rendered by the Viceroys Liu Kun-yi and Chang Chih-tung during the Boxer outbreak, in protecting foreigners and preserving order, and of the fact that the said Viceroys have memorialised the Thronofor the introduction of reforms, the Government will press the Court to authorise them to introduce at once reforms within their own provinces, and to guarantee that they shall under no pretext be disturbed for a definite term of years in the carrying out of such reforms.
His Majesty's Government recognise the importance of the services rendered by the Viceroys Liu Kun-yi and Chang Chih-tung, and would gladly support them in promoting measures for the development of China and its opening to foreign trade. His Majesty's Government authorised His Majesty's Minister at Peking in October last to make a strong protest against the removal of the Viceroys, and His Majesty's Minister replied that he was satisfied that there was no danger of their removal.
Treaties Between This Country And Continental Powers
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether those portions of the Anglo-Belgian Treaties of 1831, 1839, and 1870, and of the Anglo-Turkish Convention of 1878, as have not been expressly repealed by subsequent international instruments, are still held to be binding upon this country.
The treaty of 15th November, 1831. between Great Britain with other Powers and Belgium was superseded by the Treaty of 19th April, 1839, between the same parties, which is still in force. The treaties between Great Britain and Prussia, of 9th August, 1870. and between Great Britain with France of 11th August, 1870, were of a temporary character only, and ceased to operate twelve months after the ratification of the Treaty of Peace between France and the North German Confederation. The Anglo-Turkish Convention of 4th January, 1878, is still in force; but the obligations of this country under it were made contingent upon certain reforms in that country.
Extradition Treaty With The United States
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in view of the fact that under our extradition treaty with the United States a bankrupt debtor may defy his British creditors upon his arrival in the United States, whether the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs will endeavour to get an amended extradition treaty under which absconding bankrupts may be made amenable to our bankruptcy laws.
I beg, at the same time, to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that when the extradition treaty or treaties which govern the relations of this country and the United States of America were con-eluded no provisions were made for offences under the bankruptcy laws; and whether negotiations have been proceeding with the Government of the United States to remedy this alleged want; if so, whether the matter will be dealt with without any unnecessary delay in the interests of the commercial community, as cases of loss to the business world in both countries are not infrequent.
His Majesty's Government have endeavoured on more than one occasion of late years to make provision for the mutual surrender in extradition of persons charged with offences against the bankruptcy laws in this country and in the United States. In 1884 the offence was inserted in the draft of a treaty then under negotiation, but it was not accepted by the United States Government. The proposal was again put forward in 1889 by Her Majesty's Government, but Her Majesty's Ambassador at Washington reported that offences against bankruptcy laws were excluded from all American extradition treaties because no national bankruptcy law existed, and the law varied in each State of the Union. The matter was accordingly not further pressed by His Majesty's Government.
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Senate of the United States has recently ratified an extension of the crimes for which the extradition of criminals can be accorded to Great Britain: and, if so, what crimes may now be added to the list, and, having regard to the policy of the American people to keep their country free from immigration of criminals as evidenced by their legislation, His Majesty's Government will endeavour to make the list of extradition crimes between this country and the United States as complete as between other civilised countries.
His Majesty's Ambassador at Washington reported on the 13th instant that the Senate of the United States had approved a Supplementary Extradition Treaty signed on the 13th of December last. This Treaty adds to the offences mentioned in the Treaties of 1842 and 1889 the following offences:— Obtaining money, valuable securities, or other property by false pretences; wilful and unlawful destruction or obstruction of railroads which endangers human life; procuring abortion. Steps are being taken for the early ratification of this Supplementary Treaty. The list of extradition offences is practically as complete as that contained in the Treaties of other countries with the United States. Further additions will be considered if necessity should arise, and so far as the laws of both countries may permit.
Highland Railways: Mixed Trains
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the passenger trains running on the Highland Railway be- tween Muir of Ord and Avoch, Ross-shire, are frequently mixed, and are not provided throughout with the continuous brake; and will he take steps to require the Highland Railway Company to conform with the Board of Trade regulations.
The Order made by the Board upon the Highland Railway Company under the Regulation of Railways Act, 1889, authorised the running of a limited number of mixed trains for the conveyance of goods and passengers, subject to specified conditions, of which one is "that the engine tender and passenger vehicles of such mixed trains shall be provided with continuous brakes worked from the engine." In fixing the number of such mixed trains from time to time the Board of Trade, as directed by the Act. have regard to the nature and extent of the traffic on the railway concerned. All the engines and passenger vehicles of such trains are stated to be duly fitted with an automatic-brake, and the, Board's Order appears, therefore, to be fully complied with.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiry into the matter? Or will he allow me to give him my own experience of the line?
I have already placed myself in communication with the company, with the result stated in my answer. If the hon. Member assures me that the Order is not complied with I will further inquire.
I do.
I should like it in writing.
Certainly.
Light Railways In Highland Crofting Counties
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that only two light railways have so far been constructed in the six Highland crofting counties under the terms of the Light Railways Act, 1896, and that many of the proposed light railways, for which the Secretary for Scotland long since granted certificates on the ground that they are necessary means of communication between fishery harbours and the interior of the country, and cannot be constructed without special assistance from the State, have been abandoned by the promoters owing to the terms of the Act; and, in view of the difficulty experienced in obtaining local aid for the construction of such railways in the Highlands, will the Government consider the expediency of so amending the Act as to admit of effect being given to the recommendations of the Secretary for Scotland.
The first paragraph of the hon. Member's question does not correctly state the facts. No light railway has been constructed in the crofting counties under the Act of 1896. Under that Act, however, four light railways have been authorised, while two have been constructed under special Acts. I am not aware what difficulties the hon. Member refers to as having been experienced by promoters in consequence of the terms of the Act, nor am I at present satisfied that there is any necessity for an amendment of the law prescribing the conditions upon which grants are made.
Armagh To Kingscourt Railway
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether ho is aware that the promoters of the railway from Armagh to Kings-court have sold their rights, acquired under an Act passed last year, for making this line to the Great Northern Railway Company; whether he can say how much these rights were sold for; and whether he will take steps to prevent an arrangement between these promoters and the Great Northern Railway which, if carried out, would give a monopoly to the Great Northern Railway Company in the north-east portion of Ireland.
The Board have been informed on behalf of the promoters of the Kingscourt, Keady, and Armagh Bill of this session that the working agreement which it is proposed to authorise by the Bill—between the Kingscourt, Keady and Armagh Company and the Great Northern Railway Company—will be scheduled to the Bill. I have not seen the proposed agreement, but it will no doubt be laid before the Parliamentary Committee to which the Bill is referred, and the questions raised by the hon. Member are for the consideration of that Committee rather than for the Board of Trade.
Removal Of British Factories To The United States
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he will furnish a Return showing the number of manufacturing works removed from this country to the United States, specifying the nature of the manufacture and the causes for the removal.
It would not be practicable to obtain accurate information with regard to the subject referred to in the question, and I could not, therefore, undertake to furnish the Return which he desires.
Sheffield File Trade With Russia
I beg to ask the President of the Board of, Trade if he is aware that some firms in Sheffield have been compelled by the Russian duties to erect factories in Russia to sell files and other goods in that empire, and if the Government proposes to take steps to check the migration of factories, capital, machinery, and skilled manufacturers from this country to the United States, Russia, France, Spain, Italy, Germany, and other countries.
I am aware that it is stated that certain firms at Sheffield are about to erect branch factories or branch establishments in Russia, but I am not prepared to propose any steps in the direction indicated by the hon. Member.
May I ask whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer will not take some steps in his Budget?
That question had bettor be addressed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Evening Continuation Schools
I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education if he is aware that the Returns of evening continuation schools, granted for several years past, fail to show the total amounts spent on evening schools by the various authorities aiding those schools; if he can grant a more complete Return of particulars with regard to evening schools, including those inspected from Whitehall and those inspected from South Kensington; and if, now that the Science and Art Department is merged in the Board of Education, there is any longer any reason for a dual administration of grants to evening schools.
I am aware that the present Returns are imperfect. They embrace only those schools and parts of schools which are working under the Evening Continuation Schools Code, and omit the schools and parts of schools working under the Directory of the Board of Education. If the hon. Member will confer with rue, I will do my best to add such particulars to the Return as he desires. I am not aware of any reason for the continuance of the dual adminis-stration.
Winnington Park Schoolcounty Council Scholarships
I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education whether, in view of the fact that certain children who have obtained county council scholarships at Winning-ton Park School, in Cheshire, and are now attending higher grade schools in Manchester, will under the Minute of 6th April, 1900, be obliged to leave these schools at the end of the current term, having reached the age of fifteen without having worked out their scholarships, and, in view of the fact that these are not isolated cases, His Majesty's Government will consider the desirability of modifying the Code by extending the limit of age in the case of children holding county council and other similar scholarships to 6, 17, or. as in the case of Scotland, to 18 years.
I am not aware of any school in Manchester which is under the higher elementary schools Minute, and I doubt the existence of any such case of hardship as is referred to in the Question; but if the hon. Member will give me particulars of any such case I will inquire into it.
Education Of Deaf And Dumb Catholic Children
I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education if the school authority of any district supplies a public elementary school suitable for the elementary education of blind or deaf children for such district under Section 2 of the Elementary Education (Blind and Deaf Children) 'Act, 1893; has the Roman Catholic parent of such a child the right under that Act to refuse to have his child educated at such a school, and to require the school authority to send it to a certified Roman Catholic institution, and contribute to its maintenance while there.
I am reluctant to express any opinion on a general question; but I have been advised that the fact that a school authority has itself snpplied a school for the education of deaf and blind children does not of itself entitle the school authority to insist on the child being sent to that school if the parent of the child selects some other place of instruction. But the selection must be a reasonable one (see Section 10 (2) of the Act); and the question whether the selection was or was not reasonable would have to be decided on the merits of each particular case.
Justices' Oath Of Allegiance
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the inconvenience caused by existing requirements, he has taken His Majesty's pleasure as to issuing an order under Section 2 of the Promissory Oaths Act, 1871, enabling justices to take the oath of allegiance and the judicial oath before any two justices in petty sessions assembled.
The King's pleasure has been taken on this matter, and His Majesty has been pleased to appoint that any oaths required to be taken by county justices who were appointed to their offices by virtue of commissions issued in the reign of Her late Majesty may be taken before the justice acting as chairman at the sitting of any petty sessional court of the county for which such commissions were issued respectively.
Death Sentences For Infanticide
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in cases of infanticide, the judge has no option but to pass the sentence of death upon the guilty person; and, if this be so, whether he contemplates any change in the law.
There is no alternative sentence in cases of child murder. The Secretary of State does not contemplate any alteration of the law.
Tithe Averages
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he is aware that dissatisfaction exists amongst tithe owners as to the system by which the tithe averages are ascertained; and whether he will cause inquiry to be made upon this subject.
I am aware that some tithe owners complain that under the Act the average price is too low, on the ground that a good deal of the best grain is not sold in the specified markets and therefore does not enter into the Returns. The tithepayers, on the other hand, say that a good deal of inferior corn is similarly not sold in these markets and the average price is thus unduly raised. The whole system of commutation was, however, from the first based on the principle of taking into account only the corn actually sold to specified classes of purchasers in particular markets. If my hon. friend can show that the existing markets are not fairly representative, inquiry shall be made—but a revision was only made as recently as 1st January last. If my hon. friend can give specific instances of neglect to make returns of all the corn sold in accordance with the Act, or of failure in any respect to carry out the provisions of the law by any of the returning markets, I shall be glad to have inquiry made.
Imports Of Inferior Tea
I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if his attention has been drawn to the quantities of inferior and unwholesome teas imported into this country which are alleged to contain microbial products dangerous to health; whether the inspectors of the Board have power to seize, analyse, and condemn such teas, and to what extent such powers! are exercised; and if, in the interests of: public health, he is willing to institute an inquiry into the best methods of! checking the sale of such unwholesome; teas by determining some minimum standard of purity, and by securing a proper analysis of such teas before they are blended with other teas.
The Local Government Board have no definite information as regards the matters referred to in the first paragraph of the question. Under the Sale of Food and Drugs Act, 1899, the Board may in certain circumstances direct an officer to procure samples of tea for analysis. The result of the analysis is to be communicated to the local authority, and thereupon it becomes the duty of the authority to cause proceedings to be taken just as if they had caused the analysis to be made. The Public Health Acts contain provisions under which articles of food which appear to be unwholesome or unfit for the food of man can be dealt with by officers of local authorities. I am not at present aware of sufficient reason for any such inquiry as that suggested.
Vaccination Of Pauper Children
I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether officials appointed by a board of guardians are or are not under the immediate control of the board of guardians appointing them; and, whether the superintendent of a home under the board of guardians can cause the children in such home to be vaccinated independently of the wishes of the parents or the guardians.
The duties of the more important officers of a board of guardians are prescribed by statute and by regulations made by the Local Government Board or their predecessors. The regulations generally contain a provision to the effect that the officer is to obey the lawful orders and directions of the guardians applicable to his office. The view of the Board is that under ordinary circumstances a child in an institution such as that referred to in the question should not bevaccinated if the parent or—in the case of an orphan or deserted child—the guardians object.
Poor Law Medical Relief And The Franchise
I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether be is aware that electors are disfranchised if they or members of their family dependent upon them are treated as patients in a workhouse hospital, even though the guardians of the pool' receive full payment from the elector or his friends for the cost of treatment: and that the same disfranchisement takes place if owing to lack of hospital accommodation, the municipality arranges with the guardians for infectious cases for which the municipality is responsible to be treated at the workhouse hospital, and the municipality pays to the guardians the full cost of such treatment: and whether the Government will take steps to prevent such disfranchisement taking place
I am not aware that the allegation contained in the first paragraph of the question is correct. I have no authority to deter- mine whether an elector is disfranchised under any of the conditions referred to in the question, or to take any steps in the matter; but, so far as I am able to form an opinion, a person would not be disfranchised in the circumstances stated.
The Workhouse Dietary Order
I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that the new dietary order which it is intended to put in force in all the workhouses of the country on the 25th of March next is causing dissatisfaction among poor law authorities, both on the ground of the expense which will be involved and of the unpreparedness of the officials: whether he is aware that resolutions have been passed by the majority of boards asking for a suspension of the operation of the Order until the 29th of September next, and that this request has been unanimously endorsed by the Poor Law Unions Associaton in meeting assembled and by deputation to the Local Government Board; and whether, having regard to these circumstances, his Department can see its way to comply with the wishes of poor law authorities and their officials in the matter.
As a result of the deputation referred to by the hon. Member, a conference has taken place between officers of the Board and representatives of the Poor Law Unions Association, when the points which the Association wished to raise in connection with the Order were discussed. After the discussion there did not appear to be anything to necessitate the postponement of the date on which the Order is to come into operation, and the Board informed the Association on the 13th instant that they had decided not to make any postponement. The explanations which the Board have given with regard to the Order have, I think, largely removed any dissatisfaction on the subject. I may add that the Order was issued in October last, so that there has been ample time to prepare for its taking effect.
Cottage Homes Bill
I beg to ask the Presi- dent of the Local Government Board whether it is his intention to bring in a Bill this session to give effect to the recommendations of the Select Committee on the Cottage Homes Bill, 1899.
Boards of guardians can give effect to the majority of the recommendations of the Select Committee without legislation. As regards others, legislation would be required if fresh powers and duties were to be assigned to county councils, and I do not propose to introduce legislation on this subject at the present time. My right hon. friend and predecessor, in a circular of the 4th August last, called the attention of guardians to their powers in relation to the matters referred to by the Committee, and I have since instructed the inspectors of the Board to report the result of the consideration of the circular by guardians. In particular, whenever the opportunity has occurred I have pressed on the guardians the desirability of taking children out of the workhouse.
Food Preservatives—Borax
I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, seeing that Professor Thorpe stated in his evidence before the Royal Commission on Arsenic in Beer and Food that he had found no borax of commerce free from arsenic, the Departmental Committee now engaged in setting up standards of purity under Clause 4 of the Food and Drugs Act, 1900, will take cognisance of this evidence, and prohibit the use of borax as a preservative.
I presume that the hon. Member refers to the Departmental Committee appointed by my predecessor to inquire into the use of preservatives. That Committee has not at present reported, and it will be competent for them to take into consideration any evidence they may think fit. If it should appear that mixing borax with any article of food renders it injurious to health, a person so mixing it with intent that the article may be sold in that state would be liable to proceedings under the existing law.
Is Dr. Thorpe the principal chemist in the Government Analytical Department at Somerset House?
He is, of course.
Medical Officers Of Health
I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether any, and if so what, test of knowledge of thediseases of animals is required from candidates before being appointed medical officers of health.
No test of the kind referred to is required by law.
Will you suggest that such a test be required in the future?
There is no legal enactment under which it can be required.
Is it not possible to amend the law?
[No answer was given.]
Inspectors Of Nuisances
I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether the Local Government Board makes the appointment of a candidate as inspector of nuisances, which officer has among other duties to seize unsound meat, conditional on his possessing satisfactory knowledge of the diseases of animals likely to render the flesh unfit for human food, as well as a satisfactory knowledge of the characters of sound and unsound meat; and, if such a standard of knowledge is obligatory, when it was adopted.
The reply to the first paragraph of the question is in the negative. The Royal Commission on Tuberculosis recommended that meat inspectors should possess certain qualifications. The Local Government Board have drawn the attention of councils of boroughs and other urban districts to this subject with a view to their giving effect to the recommendations as far as practicable.
How far have the recommendations been carried out?
I am afraid I cannot answer that question. A great many appointments have been made.
Telephone Districts
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether, since the agreement with the National Telephone Company in 1896. any telephone district included in that agreement has been transferred from one telephone exchange area to another.
In the interval between the execution of the agreement with the National Telephone Company in 1896 and the appointment of the Select Committee on Telephones in 1898 the transfer of a district from one telephone area to another was authorised in several cases, particulars of which will be found in Appendix No. 35 to the Report of the Select Committee. Certain of these alterations were embodied in a formal deed dated the 15th February, 1899, but no other transfer has been authorised since the appointment of the Select Committee.
Has any transfer been applied for except the one I made?
I do not know.
Promotion In The Manchester Post Office
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether his attention has been called to the case of a telegraphist in the Manchester Post Office who, on the 8th September. 1900, was promoted to the position of clerk, filling a vacancy which had occurred in December. 1899, in which case the back pay then given to the telegraphist has had to be refunded, the promotion having since been dated from the 1st September, 1900; whether the Postmaster General will investigate the principle governing promotions, with a view towards filling vacancies immediately they occur, and date the next officer's promotion from that period; and if he will reconsider the decision as to refunding the back pay referred to.
In the case referred to, two sorting clerks and telegraphists were promoted to be clerks, and it was intended that the date of promotion should be the 1st September, 1900, that being the date on which the promotions were approved by the Postmaster General; but through an error the 16th December, 1899, was inserted in the papers. When this error was discovered steps were taken to correct it, the officers who had been overpaid £2 17s. each were called on to refund the overpayment; and the Postmaster General regrets that he cannot relieve them of this payment. If these officers had been allowed to benefit by the error committed. they would have ranked above an officer who was properly their senior. The general rule is that promotions shall take effect from the date on which they receive the Postmaster General's approval. Every effort is made to fill vacancies as soon as possible; but the Postmaster General sees no reason for altering the general rule that a promotion should date from the day on which it is made.
Land Commission (Ireland) Clerks
:1 beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in I view of the fact that three senior assistant clerks, abstracter class, employed in the offices of the Land Commission (Ireland), have for the past two years received an annual increment of £5, which they are still receiving. he can say whether there is any reason why the remainder of the class should not be similarly treated in the matter of increment.
The case of the three clerks referred to is not identical with the remainder of the abstracter class, and I do not think that the treatment in their case can be applied to the rest of the class. But in the case of any abstracter recommended by the head of his department for special service, there is power to advance him in his scale, though without alteration of his rate of increment.
Civil Service Superannuation Regulations
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether it is still the practice of the Treasury, under Section 3 of the Superannuation Act of 1887, to permit, upon promotion to the establishment, the counting of all continuous temporary service rendered prior to establishment, as if the entire service of a similar character had been rendered upon the establishment.
There has been no change in the practice of the Treasury. By the provisions of Section 3 of the Superannuation Act of 1887 the power of the Treasury to reckon temporary service for pension is expressly limited to cases in which they consider that the special circumstances warrant such a course.
Carloway And Stornoway Road, Island Of Lewis
I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the Congested Districts Board have yet made provision for the construction of the middle section of the road between Carloway and Storno-way, Island of Lewis; and, if not, will he state what steps it is proposed to take to complete this road.
No provision has been made for the purpose referred to in the question of the hon. Member, and no steps are in contemplation.
Navigation Classes In Scottish Evening Schools
I beg to ask the Lord Advocate if he will state how many scholars in the whole of Scotland attended classes in navigation at evening schools during the year ending 31st December, 1900: and will he state how many of these scholars attended navigation classes in the six Highland crofting counties.
I am unable to give the information desired for the year ended 31st December, 1900. because that date is in the middle of the winter course, and does not represent the natural close of a session of evening school work. The Returns for the evening school session of 1899–1900 show that navigation was taught in seventeen departments in the following Highland crofting counties: Argyll, 7; Inverness, 3; Boss, I; Shetland, 6. The total number of scholars taught in these seventeen departments was 321.
Greenock School Board Prizes
I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether he is aware that Greenock School Board provides prizes out of the public rate for the children attending the schools under their charge, which are really denominational in the sense that the Presbyterian religion is taught; and, whether, in these circumstances, he is prepared to instruct that a share of the prizes purchased by the Board be given all Government-inspected schools in proportion to the average attendance.
I am aware that the School Board of Greenock, like many school boards in Scotland, provide prizes for children in attendance at the public schools out of the school fund. I know of nothing in the Education Acts which would warrant the payment from the school fund of prizes to children in attendance at other than public schools.
But is this rule fair to the Catholic children?
I think so. It would be an entirely new departure to take the rates for the purpose suggested.
But is not the Greenock School practically a denominational school?
That is a matter of argument.
Ought not the rule to be abandoned as unjust to Catholic children, and the prizes provided by Private people?
Order, order! The hon. Member is now arguing the question.
Inver—Disfranchisement Of Householders
I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether he is aware that between sixty and seventy householders in Inver, Ross-shire, representing almost the entire village, are disfranchised in consequence of the landlord having failed to pay the rates, in accordance with an arrangement which these tenants show he entered into with them some time back; and, in view of the fact that as matters now stand the rates fall more heavily on the rest of the district, will the Secretary for Scotland say what steps he proposes to take in the matter.
I have made inquiry through the Local Government Board, and am informed that that Department has no knowledge of any such arrangement as is alleged in the hon. Member's question. In any view such an arrangement would be a matter of private paction between the landlord and tenant. So far as the rate collector is concerned he is bound to take the valuation roll as it stands and there is no room for any action by the Secretary for Scotland in the matter.
Maidstone Election Petition
I beg to ask Mr. Attorney General when the shorthand writer's notes of evidence respecting the recent election petition at Maidstone will be laid upon the Table and distributed.
The notes were laid on the Table some days ago. If there is any general desire that they shall be printed, I will give the necessary instructions.
Sneem Pier
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Congested Districts Board and the shipping companies interested took steps to procure the erection of a goods store on Sneem Pier, county Kerry, but were prevented from carrying out this work by the action of the landlord; can he say at what date this opposition was offered; and will the Irish Government take the necessary steps to secure the erection of the store, and thus meet a want whereby inconvenience and loss of trade have been occasioned.
The Congested Districts Board was willing to erect an open shed on the quay at Sneem, as an alternative for a goods store on adjoining land, which the owners, so recently as September last, stated it was their intention to build. I cannot say if the shipping companies proposed to erect a store on the pier. I am making further inquiries.
Derriquin Castle Shooting Party
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that a shooting party was held at Derriquin Castle, county Kerry, in which some officers of the Royal Irish Constabularly took part, on 20th November, 1900, and that members of the party fired from the public road; and will an investigation into the circumstances of the case be held.
The shot was not fired by either of the two police officers present on the occasion, but by a Swiss gentleman who acted in ignorance of the law. No damage was done, and it is not proposed to take any action in the matter.
Irish Local Governmentassistant County Surveyors
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has removed or superseded the officers of the Local Government Board who tried to oblige county councils in Ireland to pay assistant county surveyors in some cases eighty per cent. increased salaries; whether he is aware that the interference of the Local Government Board in the matter prevented the officials transferred to the county councils from being reasonably dealt with, and has caused friction and expense; and, if he will prevent such action on behalf of the Local Government Board in future, or if he will appoint some other person to look after the affairs of the Department.
The Court of Appeal did not question the power of the Board to fix these salaries, but traversed the method adopted in fixing them. I would remind the hon. Member that this question can be discussed on the Appropriation Bill.
Irish Poor Law Medical Officers —Holidays
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has called for the resignation of those officials connected with the Local Government Board who have been compelling boards of guardians in Ireland to give compulsorily four weeks holidays to medical officers previous to the decision of the Court of King's Bench in this matter; and, whether, seeing that this order cost the boards of guardians about £10,000, he will direct a refund.
The reply to both paragraphs is in the negative.
Trained Nurses In Workhouse Hospitals
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, having regard to the difficulty that boards of guardians in Ireland have in obtaining trained nurses according to the standard laid down by the Local Government Board, and seeing that in the county infirmaries there are, throughout Ireland, a number of experienced nurses who have acquired their training in these institutions, he will permit nurses so trained to compete for the position of trained nurse in workhouse hospitals and other hospitals in Ireland.
As at present advised, the Local Government Board is not prepared to relax its standard for trained nurses. I am glad to say that in ninety-six workhouses the guardians have already appointed nurses with the qualifications prescribed.
Carrickmacross Workhouse Dietary
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Local Government Board obliged the Carrickmacross Board of Guardians to increase the cost of the dietary of the inmates of the workhouse by 30 per cent.; and that when the visiting committee interviewed the inmates on the change of dietary the inmates preferred the old to the new dietary, though the latter will cost the ratepayers about £300 per annum of an increase upon the rates; and whether he will permit the medical officer and the guardians to vary the dietary in Carrickmacross workhouse.
The fact is not correctly stated in the first part of the question. The Board has not laid down any fixed rule as regards the dietary of workhouse inmates beyond the minimum scale prescribed in 1849. The Board suggested a revision of the existing dietaries on more varied lines, so far as children and the infirm and lunatic classes were concerned. The clerk of the union states that the cost of the dietary of the inmates has increased by 14 per cent., and that the total cost to the ratepayers will be less than one half of the sum stated in the question. It is open to the guardians and the medical officer to vary the dietary of any class of inmates, provided the scale is not below that approved by the Local Government Board.
Dromard Petty Sessions — District Inspector Clayton
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to-the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that District Inspector Clayton, of Banbridge, does not attend Dromard petty sessions in accordance with Code Section 1356; and how many times he has attended these petty sessions during the last five years, and how does he account for his neglect of duty to the-Inspector General in his quarterly Return No. 8.
There has been no neglect of duty on the part of this officer, as suggested. The regulations require him to attend petty sessions when not otherwise engaged on more urgent duty. He has attended these petty sessions on seventeen occasions in the past five years. His absence from the sessions has been satisfactorily accounted for.
Is it the fact that this officer spends the greater part of his time playing hockey, and other games?
Order, order!
Castlebar District Lunatic Asylum
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Local Government Board auditor has certified that the sum of £1,359 17s. 1d. is due by the Treasury to the committee of management of the Castle-bar District Lunatic Asylum for the maintenance of patients for the quarter ending 31st March, 1899, being the contribution of the Treasury as the rate-in-aid; and if ho can explain why the Treasury has not paid this amount.
The following question also appeared on the Paper:—
To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, in view of the fact that it has been certified that the Carlow District Asylum is entitled to payment of £884 11s. 4d.—namely, Carlow county £365 9s. 10d, Kildare county £519 1s. 6d., rate-in-aid for the three months ending 31st March, 1899, and as this debt has not been paid, whether he will arrange to have the liability discharged within the next four weeks.
The subject matter of these questions has been already dealt with by me in answer to similar questions concerning other asylums, and I have nothing to add to my replies to these questions. A better opportunity for discussing the matter will arise cither on the Appropriation Bill or the Estimates.
Kilmallock District Council— Labourers' Cottages
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the inquiry of the Local Government Board inspector in regard to the present scheme for the erection of labourers' cottages under the Labourers Acts in the Kilmallock District Council, in the county of Limerick, was held as far back as June in 1900, but that the Provisional Order has not yet been placed in the hands of the Kilmallock councillors; can he state the cause of the delay; and, will he give instructions to expedite the proceedings, so that the district councillors may be enabled to provide the cottages and plots early enough for the labourers to cultivate the ground.
The Provisional Order was made by the Local Government Board on the 28th ultimo, and copies have been sent to the Rural District Council.
Rents In County Limerick
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to a resolution from the Kilmallock (county Limerick) District Council, passed at their sitting in Limerick, protesting against the decision of the Chief Land Commissioners in raising the rents, over the heads of the sub-Commissioners, in forty per cent. of the cases tried before them, and expressing their conviction that until a compulsory Land Purchase Bill is passed there will be neither peace nor contentment in Ireland: and whether he is prepared to introduce any such legislation as will give expression to these views.
The answer to the first paragraph is yes, and to the second paragraph no.
Shillelagh Union Inquiry
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the guardians of the Shillelagh Union have protested against the appointment of Dr. Edgar Flinn to hold an inquiry into certain charges made against Dr. Bolster, medical officer of the Tinahely dispensary district, and whether he will advise the Local Government Board to have the inquiry conducted by some other inspector.
Dr. Flinn is the Medical Inspector of the district in question, and, since he has done nothing to forfeit the confidence of the Local Government Board, I see no reason for relieving him from the duty of holding the inquiry into the charges against Dr. Booster.
Is it not the fact that he has lost the confidence of the Irish public?
[No answer was returned.]
Electro-Culture Of Potatoes In Ireland
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland will he state what was the result of the investigation by Mr. David MacLurg, representative of Processor Thomas Carroll, official of the Agricultural Board, into the experiment of Mr. Martin O Sullivan, of Athea, county Limerck, in electrocuture of potatoes, ho d on the 2nd and 3rd October last; and whether, seeing that Mr David MacLurg on the 4th October last photographed two heaps of potatoes, one four times the weight of the other representing the relatve produce in large or table potatoes, of the experimented and non-experimented plots selected by Professor Carroll on the 24th September last, will he state whether, if the experiment has been a success, the Agricultural Board Wllact on it in the public interest.
The Department of Agriculture is not satisfied that the experiment referred to is a success, and is not in a position to act on it in the public interest. The Department, however, proposes to cause a test to be made this season under its own supervision with a view to settle the question.