House Of Commons
Friday, 29th March, 1901.
The House met at Eleven of the clock.
Message From The Lords
That they have agreed to Consolidated Fund (No. 1) Bill, without amendment.
Royal Assent
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.
The House went; and, having returned—
MR. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to Consolidated Fund (No. 1) Act, 1901.
Private Bill Business
Private Bills (Standing Order 62 Complied With)
MR. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills. That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, Standing Order No. 62 has been complied with, viz.:—
Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway (Dearne Valley Junction Railways) Bill.
Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway (Various Powers) Bill.
Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time.
Private Bills (Petition For Additional Provision) (Standing Orders Not Complied With)
MR. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for additional Provision in the following Bill, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, viz.:—
North British Railway Bill.
Ordered, That the Report be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.
Horley District Gas Bill And Crawley Gas Bill
Ordered, That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Horley District Gas Bill and the Crawley Gas Bill that they have power, if they think fit, to consolidate the said two Bills, or any part or parts thereof respectively, into one Bill.—( Mr. Caldwell.)
Great Central Railway Bill
Petition for additional Provision; referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Paisley Gas Provisional Order Bill
Read the third time, and passed.
Metropolitan Police Provisional Order Bill
Thames And Severn Provisional Order Bill
As amended, considered; to be read the third time upon Monday next.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No 5)
Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 and 1888, relating to Macclesfield, Ripon, Todmorden, Trowbridge, Ware, Wellingborough (Public Purposes), Wellington (Salop), Widnes. Wisbech, and Workington, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Gerald Balfour and Mr. Austen Chamberlain.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No 5) Bill
"To confirm certain Provisional Orders, made by the Board of Trade under the Electric' Lighting Acts, 1882 and 1888, relating to Macclesfield, Ripon, Todmorden, Trowbridge. Ware. Wellingborough (Public Purposes), Wellington (Salop), Widnes. Wisbech, and Workington," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 132.]
London Bridge Widening Bill
Derwent Valley Water Board Bill
Tees Valley Water Board Bill
Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Message From The Lords
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act for supplying with gas the parish of Arlesey and other places in the county of Bedford." Arlesey Gas Bill [Lords].
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to convert the capital of the Newcastle upon-Tyne and Gateshead Gas Company; to empower the Company to raise additional capital; and for other purposes." Newcastle-upon-Tyne and Gateshead Gas Bill [Lords].
And, also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to increase the number of the Council of the Borough of Folkestone, in the county of Kent; and for other purposes." Folkestone Corporation Bill [Lords].
Arlesey Gas Bill Lords
Newcastle-Upon-Tyne And Gates-Head Gas Bill Lords
Folkestone Corporation Bill Lords
Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Petitions
Beer Bill
Petitions in favour, from Rotherham; and Peterborough; to lie upon the Table.
Coal Mines (Employment) Bill
Petitions in favour, from Fenton (three); Longton (No. 1); Gark Hall; Longton (No. 2); Polton; Outfield; Loanhead; Rosewell; Newbattle; Wallyford; Carberry; Staveley; Brownhills; Hanley (No. 3); Hanley (No. 5); Hanley (No. 1); Hanley Deep Pit; Nostell; Haigh; St. Helens; Flimby; Ellenborough; Bullgill; Gillhead; Buckhill; Seaton Moor; Robin Hood; Lepton; Clayton West; Old Silkstone; Birley (No. 1); Wortley and Farnley; and Kirkintilloch Collieries; to lie upon the Table.
Elementary Education (Higher Grade And Evening Continuation Schools)
Petition from Rotherham, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
Local Authorities Officers' Superannuation Bill
Petition from Cambridge, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
Mines (Eight Hours) Bill
Petitions in favour, from Fenton (three); Longton (No. 1); Gark Hall; Wallyford; Carberry; Edinburgh; Loanhead; Brownhills; Hanley (No. 5); Hanley (No. 3); Hanley (No. 1); Deep Pit, Hanley; North Staveley; Haigh; Nostell; Robin Hood; Seaton Moor; Buckhill; Gillhead; Bullgill; Flimby; Ellenborough; Saint Helens; Outfield; Clayton West; Lepton; Lye; Two Gates; Old Silkstone; Birley (No. 1); Wortley and Farnley; and Cakemore Collieries; to lie upon the Table.
Sale Of Intoxicating Liquors On Sunday Bill
Petition from Shipley, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
Sale Of Intoxicating Liquors To Children Bill
Petitions in favour, from Pickering; Dearham; Workington (three); Maryport; Netherton; Hermiston; West Croydon; Leicester; Mexborough; Oulton; Rothwell; Stanley-cum-Wrenthorpe; Ham; Hedgman; Pentre Estyll; Pickering; Sunday School Union; Islington; Cockermouth; Llanllyfni; New Maiden; Hatherleigh; Okehampton; Hackney; and Shore-ditch; to lie upon the Table.
Sale Of Intoxicating Liquors To Children (Scotland) Bill
Petitions in favour, from Cawdor; Naidu Landward; Lossiemouth; Drainie; Glenluce; Thurso; Edinburgh (two); Tain (two); New Spynie; and Kings" kettle; to lie upon the Table.
Returns, Reports, Etc
Light Railways Act, 1896
Copy presented, of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of Light Railways in the parishes of Hemsworth, Ackworth, and Badsworth, in the West Riding of the county of York (Brackenhill Light Railway Order, 1901) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Copy presented, of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of Light Railways in the borough of Morley and the urban districts of Drighlington, Gildersome, and East and West Ardsley, in the West Riding of the county of York (Morley and District Light Railways Order. 1901) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Copy presented, of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the deviation of a Light Railway authorised by the West Hartlepool Light Railways Order, 1897, and for other purposes (West Hartlepool Light Railways [Deviation, etc.] Order, 1901) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Copy presented, of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of a Light Railway in the county of Salop from Cleobury Mortimer to Ditton Priors (Cleobury Mortimer and Ditton Priors Light Railway Order, 1901) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Copy presented, of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of a Light Railway in the county of Essex between Kelvedon and River Blackwater (Kelvedon, Tiptree, and Tollesbury Light Railway Order, 1901) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Copy presented, of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of Light Railways in the county of Lancaster from Ormskirk to Southport (Ormskirk and Southport Light Railways Order, (1901) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Copy presented, of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of a Light Railway in the county of Kent from Hollingbourne to Faversham (Maidstone and Faversham Junction Light Railway Order, 1901) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Brewers' Licences
Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 28th March; Mr. Austen Chamberlain]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No.
111.]
Fleets (Great Britain And Foreign Countries)
Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 12th December, 1900; Sir Charles Dilke]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No.
112.]
East India (Royal Indian Engineering College)
Copy presented, of Papers relating to Remodelling of Course of Instruction and Retirement of certain of the Professors and Lecturers; and Report of the Board of Visitors, dated 25th March, 1901, and Minutes of Evidence taken before them [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Questions
South African War—Inquiry Into Conduct And Operations
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he will state if in the promised inquiry into the conduct of the war will be included the hiring of transports; the price paid for them; the length of many of the passages; the food supplied to the troops; the alleged unfitness of some; and especially why, at a critical time, when speed was of such importance, the fast mail steamers were not requisitioned, as per the subsidy contracts, many of which could have carried a large number of troops without any alterations.
I do not think that anything will be excluded by the reference from the consideration of the Commission to inquire into the conduct of the war, but I confess that I do not think their task will be a very light one. This is a short sprig of a very small branch of that very large investigation.
Will the right hon. Gentleman inform us when the inquiry will take place, will it be a genuine inquiry, and will it take place at a time when the public interest has not decreased?
I cannot imagine anything which would so rapidly decrease public interest as these very minute points being brought forward.
Seditious Libels At The Cape
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can state when the trial of Mr. Albert Cartwright, editor of the South African Daily News, on a charge of seditious libel will take place; and whether he is to be tried by the Special Treason Court constituted by the recent Act of the Cape Colony Parliament, or under the ordinary law.
*
The only information I possess on this subject is that the preparatory examination took place in the Cape Town Police Court, but I have telegraphed to inquire.
Heilbron Affair
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he has official information to the effect that a convoy of sixty wagons, with food, mails, and 200 boxes of small arm ammunition, and 900 rounds of 15-pounder ammunition was despatched from the railway to Heilbron on 2nd June with an escort of only 140 infantry, and was captured by the Boers; that General Colvile expressed his opinion that the escort was inadequate; and that he did not receive the telegram informing him of the convoy's departure till 20th June.
*
A convoy was despatched with an escort of 163 infantry on the 2nd June and was captured by the Boers. General Colvile did express an opinion as to the inadequacy of the escort, but the convoy had already started and could not be stopped, fie was aware of the intended despatch of the convoy on the 2nd June. He reports that he received no telegram informing him that it had started till the 20th June; telegraphic communication was much interrupted at the time.
Plague At Cape Town
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the increase of plague at Cape Town and the danger of importing the disease into this country, he will direct that all military invalids and soldiers arriving at English ports in ships on which any case of plague, has occurred should be isolated and kept under observation for a sufficient period before being allowed to go to their homes or to military camps.
*
Instructions to this effect were issued on the 22nd instant to all concerned.
Peace Negotiations With General Botha
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received from Lord Kitchener, since his last answer on this question, any further report of the interview between him and General Botha.
*
No, Sir.
Mafeking Siege—Thefts Of Government Foodstuffs
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Staff Sergeant-Major J. S. Loney, who, during the siege of Mafeking, was tried by court-martial, pleaded guilty to the theft of Government foodstuffs, was sentenced to reduction, discharge with ignominy, and five years penal servitude; that, during the final attack on Mafeking, Loney was released and took a gallant part in its defence; and that he is at present serving his time at Portland; and whether, having regard to these facts and also to the fact that before joining Baden-Powell Loney was a warrant officer with an excellent character and fifteen years service, during ten of which he had no entry against him, a mitigation of the sentence may be granted.
*
This warrant officer stole and sold Government food at a time when the whole of the inhabitants of Mafeking were on rations and undergoing a siege. I cannot undertake to reconsider the case.
Imperial Yeomanry
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he is now able to state the proportion of members of the Yeomanry cavalry, of the Volunteer force, and of ex-members of the Regular or Militia forces in the second levy of the Imperial Yeomanry.
I am afraid that I cannot give my hon. and gallant friend the information at present, as the Returns have not yet been received.
Army Reorganisation
*
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, before the special discussion on the proposed Army reforms takes place, he will furnish a Return or Memorandum giving the House information respecting the 120,000 men constituting the organised force to be held available for field service over sea, as set forth in the Return on to-day's Paper entitled Army Reforms.
The numbers which make up the 120,000 men are as follows:—
All ranks. | |
3 Army Corps | 108,777 |
3 Cavalry Brigades | 7,491 |
Line of Communication Troops | 4,000 |
Total | 120,268 |
Mark Iv Bullets
I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether the 50,000,000 Mark IV. bullets, of which 4,500,000 were recently broken up, were manufactured in conformity with the rules adopted by the Hague Conference; and on what date were the bullets contracted for.
Mark IV. bullets were adopted into the Service before the declaration of the Hague Conference. The order for this ammunition was given in June, 1898.
Defective Naval Guns
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can state the result of the recent inquiry into the bursting of guns on board one of His Majesty's ships of war.
*
There have been no cases of guns bursting on board His Majesty's ships in recent years. The only instance resembling a burst occurred on board the "Royal Sovereign," when a portion of the muzzle of a six-pounder gun was blown off. The Ordnance Committee is at the present time investigating the cause of this accident.
*
The case I referred to was that of the guns of the "Thunderer," which were at first stated to have burst, an inquiry being ordered. I suppose they did not burst. Still, there was an inquiry.
*
Had I known that the right hon. Baronet alluded to that case I would have obtained the information.
Malta—Language Question
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will grant a Return of the Memoranda and Correspondence relating to the language question in Malta subsequent to June, 1899, and in continuation of the Return previously granted and ordered to be printed on 21st July, 1899.
I propose shortly to lay before Parliament further Papers in continuation of the Return referred to by the hon. Member.
Indian Railways—Bengal Coal Industry
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether complaints havereached him that the coal industry in Bengal is cramped by the inability of the East India Railway to supply sufficient wagons to carry the coal from the mines to consumers, and for shipment; and whether, to secure a better service, of wagons on that railway as well as a general extension of profitable lines, the Government of India can arrange to make the expenditure on them independent of the general administrative finances under borrowing powers such as were granted some years ago and then withdrawn.
Some representations as to the insufficiency of the rolling-stock of the East India Railway for the conveyance of coal reached me about a year ago. A short time previously large additions to the rolling-stock had been sanctioned by the Government of India; further additions were sanctioned later in the year; and, so far as I am aware, all the requirements of the Company have now been met. Though all capital outlay for railway purposes raised upon the security of the revenues of India must be under the control of Government, I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the adequate equipment of lines in working order should be a primary consideration in Indian railway administration.
Slavery In Zanzibar
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will be able within a short time to present to the House further Papers relating to slavery and the slave trade in the Sultanate of Zanzibar, in continuance of those issued in. April, 1900, and whether such Papers will include a statement of the reasons which have led His Majesty's officials to estimate that there are only half as many slaves in the two islands as were believed to exist in 1897, and to conclude that further abolitionist measures are not necessary; and whether His Majesty's Agent and Consul General will shortly issue a Report on the condition of the British East Africa Protectorate.
*
Papers will be laid after the recess; they will include all the information which has reached His Majesty's Government on the subject. His Majesty's Agent and Consul General has been so short a time in the Protectorate that he has not yet had time to prepare a report, but he will be asked to do so.
Demise Of The Crown—Position Of Office-Holders
I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Ex-echquer whether he can inform the House what is the total of the penalties that have been incurred by Ministers who were reappointed to their offices by the present King should the view of the existing law suggested by Mr. Attorney General be correct.
When I first saw the question I hoped the hon. Member had discovered for me a new source of revenue. I may tell him, however, that the answer is nil.
I beg to ask Mr. Attorney General whether he is aware that, under the provisions of 54 George 3, cap. 16, the seats in Parliament of persons continuing in office under successive Lords Lieutenant of Ireland are not to be vacated; and whether there is any analogous provision in the existing law relating to the reappointment of Ministers by a new Sovereign.
The answer to the question in the first paragraph is in the affirmative; to that in the second paragraph, that lam not aware of any; but I may remind the hon. Member that by the Statute of Anne no re-appointment can be necessary until six months after the demise of the Crown.
I beg to ask the hon. and learned Gentleman if he has seen the London Gazette of 24th January, in which I find this statement:—"The Right Hon. Arthur James Balfour was, by His Majesty's command, sworn as First Lord of the Treasury," and whether that does not constitute a new appointment.
I should say not, Sir.
Police Pensions
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, having regard to the late decision of Justices Channell and Bucknill in the case of ex-Police Constable Upperton against the Metropolitan authorities, under which it will become obligatory on all corporations and other police authorities to pay the retiring pensions of their police constables at the rate of 365¼ days per year instead of 364 days, or fifty-two weeks per year, whether steps will be taken to enable all police pensioners who have been retired under the same Act to recover back payment at the same higher rate from the various bodies under which they served.
*
So far as the Metropolitan Police are concerned, all pensions granted previous to the decision referred to have been revised in accordance therewith, and the arrears have been paid. As regards other police forces, it is a matter for the various police authorities, who, I have no doubt, will take care that the law as now declared is carried out.
Census Returns
I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, in view of the difficulty managers of hotels and similar large establishments will be under in procuring the return for the Census, the enumerators will be authorised to accept particulars as inscribed in hotel registers of persons who, though known to have occupied rooms on the night of the 31st instant, have not presented any returns for the enumerators.
It will be the duty of the resident manager or proprietor of a hotel or similar establishment to fill up the columns in the Census schedule for all the persons staying in the establishment on the night of Sunday next. I am afraid that the particulars in the hotel registers would generally not give the information desired.
Housing Of The Working Classes Act—Loan Repayments
I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, in view of the replies he has received from local authorities throughout the country in response to his circular asking for information respecting the precise difficulties which stand in the way of carrying out the Housing of the Working Classes Acts, he can see his way to recommend the Government to extend the period of repayment of loans for housing schemes.
I have nothing to add to what I have already said on this subject. Very few replies have as yet been received from the local authorities with whom I have communicated.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that the replies will be laid before the House?
No; certainly not. The inquiry is one of a departmental character, and therefore I could not undertake to lay the Papers on the Table.
Government Veterinary Inspectors
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture if he can state how the situations of travelling inspectors in the Veterinary Department of the Board of Agriculture are obtained, and what qualifications are necessary; and can he explain why the Secretary to the Board of Agriculture was allowed to leave his post and to go to South Africa as Secretary to the Hospital Commission, more especially when swine fever had not yet been stamped out, and foot-and-mouth disease had again broken out in England.
We employ in connection with our work under the Diseases of Animals Act (a) veterinary inspectors and (b) inspectors. Both are nominated by the President of the Board for the time being. The former require veterinary qualifications for the performance of their duties, and they have hitherto been selected by the chief veterinary officer and their names submitted to the President. The inspectors require to possess good business habits and address, and to be capable of securing the proper observance of our orders with firmness and tact. The officer apparently referred to in the second paragraph of the question is an assistant secretary. He was selected. I understand, by the Government in July last, because it was thought that his combined military and civil experience rendered him specially qualified for the service required. Owing to the extra exertions of the remaining members of the staff, which were freely given, the business of the Department was not prejudiced by his absence for three months, which period included his ordinary holiday.
Elementary School Teachers—Appeals Against Dismissal
I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education if he can now approximately indicate a date for the introduction of the Bill to afford to teachers of public elementary schools a method of appeal against wrongful dismissal from employ.
My right hon. friend the Vice-President of the Board of Education wishes me to say that he is detained at the Board of Education, but the answer to the question is in the negative.
Rifle Ranges At Political Clubs—Yoker (Dumbartonshire) Conservative Club
I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether he is aware that a rifle range is provided at a Conservative Club recently opened at Yoker, Dumbartonshire; and whether similar facilities for rifle practice will be afforded to the various branches of the United Irish League in Scotland and other political organisations.
*
I have no knowledge of the fact stated in the first paragraph of the hon. Member's question. As neither the provision of rifle ranges nor the fostering of political organisations is within the province of my Department I fear I am unable to answer the second paragraph.
Fort George Water Supply
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the Report of the Medical Officer of Health for Inverness-shire published last year shows that water taken from a well at Fort George Station was found to be so impure as to be quite unfit for use; can it be ascertained whether the Highland Railway Company have taken any action in the matter; and is the station at Fort George now provided with wholesome water.
The Board of Trade are always glad to use their good offices with respect to any subject falling within their powers, but I feel sure that the hon. Member will see on reflection that this is a matter lying entirely outside the province of this Department.
Edinburgh Post Office Revision
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether his attention has been called to the answer given on 10th May, 1900, to the effect that the scheme of revision for the sorting branch of the Edinburgh Post Office would very shortly be decided; and, seeing that on 12th December, 1900, it was stated that a portion of the scheme had been sanctioned by the Treasury and carried into effect, but that certain questions of principle, with regard to higher appointments, which affected the service generally, had been held over, but which it was hoped would be disposed of before long, whether he can now say what progress has been made in arriving at a settlement of these questions.
The Post- master General is not yet in a position to come to a final decision upon the questions referred to, as he is still in communication with the Treasury upon the subject; but he hopes that a settlement will be shortly arrived at.
Inverness-Shire Postal Arrangements
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he is aware that in some districts of Inverness-shire the delivery of letters is effected only once a fortnight, whilst there are others in which the delivery is effected only once a week; and, in view of the fact that most of these townships contain from 50 to upwards of 100 inhabitants, will he have some inquiry made with a view to a more frequent postal service.
If the hon. Member will inform the Postmaster General what are the districts or townships in Inverness-shire to which he refers, the Postmaster General will have special inquiry made with the view of ascertaining whether it is possible to afford a more frequent delivery of letters to the places in question.
Harris Mail Service
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether the Postmaster General has received a communication from a public meeting, recently held at Stockinish, Harris, the necessity for a mail steamer service between Loch Stockinish and the mainland; and will the Postmaster General consider the expediency of establishing the proposed service, especially in view of the fact that it would not only expedite the delivery of letters for Stockinish, but would also materially assist the conduct of the postal service for the fourteen townships between Scadabay and Flodibay, Harris.
The Postmaster General has received the extract forwarded by the hon. Member from a letter relative to a public meeting recently held in Stockinish, Harris, at which a resolution was adopted as to the desirability of arranging for a mail steamer to call at Loch Stockinish. He is not sanguine that such a service could be established, as when the question was last considered, in 1897, it was found that if the Portree and Dunvegan steamer called at Loch Stockinish the arrival of mails at places beyond would be delayed, and also that the contractor objected to make the call on the ground that the entrance to Loch Stockinish was dangerous. The Postmaster General will, however, make further inquiry in the matter, and communicate the result to the hon. Member.
Portaronan Boat Slip
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if the attention of the Congested Districts Board has been called to the necessity for the erection of a boat slip at Portaronan, Malin Head; whether he is aware that this port is frequented and used by deep sea men; that there is no accommodation for the landing of fishing boats and for the removal of the fish from the boats at present; and that in consequence quantities of fish are lost in being taken from the boats to the shore; and can he say whether this port has been visited lately by a member of the Congested Districts Board, or by any of their officials, for the purpose of reporting to the Board as to the cost and the necessity of a boat slip; and, if so, what was the report.
Representations have been made to the Board to the effect mentioned in the first and second paragraphs. The answer to the third paragraph is in the affirmative. A committee of members of the Board will visit the place when a suitable opportunity presents itself.
Irish Local Government—Assistant Surveyors
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the professional qualifications necessary for candidates for the position of assistant surveyors, in order to obviate the necessity for an examination; and can he explain on whose authority and why were the subjects of this examination altered on the passing of the Local Government Act.
The qualifications have been described in detail by an Order of the Local Government Board, published in February last. I have forwarded a copy of this Order to the hon. Member. In answer to the second paragraph, I would refer to the provisions of Section 83, Sub-sections 4 and 9, of the Act of 1898. The Civil Service Commissioners demurred to conducting these examinations, and the Local Government Board was requested to discharge that duty by the Lord Lieutenant. If the hon. Member has any representations to make on the syllabus I shall be prepared to consider them.
Roxborough Road School
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state how much money is now in the hands of the Commissioners of Education in Ireland on account of the Roxborough Road School endowment; from what source it is derived; to what purpose, or purposes, it is legally applicable; what became of the rents paid by the tenant for the ten years from 1880 to 1890; whether, during that period, the tenant hold under an agreement which bound him to keep the premises in repair; and whether there is any way now to recover that money for the endowment; and can he say when these premises were last inspected on behalf of the Commissioners of Education; and, as they are public property in which the city of Limerick has an interest, will he see that the present tenant is kept to the terms of his agreement, and does not allow the building to go into disrepair.
The moneys referred to in the first query consist of a sum of £163 10s. 1d. cash, and £63 1s. 6d. stock, all derived from the rent payable by the present tenant of the school. The Commissioners are not in a position to state to what purposes these moneys are applicable. A sum of £210 was received by way of rent between 1880 and 1890. Of this, a sum of £188 17s. 6d. was expended by the Commissioners on repairs. The tenant is bound to keep the premises in good repair, reasonable wear and damage excepted. He appears to have expended on the premises, out of his money, a sum of £160 in the same period. The buildings have not been inspected on behalf of the Commissioners since 1892. The present tenant is bound by his agreement to give up the premises in as good condition and repair as he received them.
Irish Local Taxation Account
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the amount paid by the Treasury in discharge of its liability to the Irish Local Taxation Account for the grant-in-aid wrongfully paid in 1898 out of that account, by passing a Supplemental Vote last July for the amount so paid, is now standing to the credit of the Irish Local Taxation Account in Dublin Castle; and will the Treasury make an Order for its payment to the different asylums for the maintenance of patients for the three months intervening between the change from the old calendar year to the new financial year, during which period the entire cost of maintenance fell on the local rates.
The amount of the Supplementary Vote taken in July last has been paid into the Local Taxation Account in the Bank of Ireland, and is available for the various purposes mentioned in Section 58 of the Local Government Act, 1898. The answer to the second paragraph is in the negative.
Will the Treasury issue a statement for the information of Irish Members?
I shall be very glad to attempt to explain the matter again if the hon. Members care to have my views on the subject when the Vote comes on.
Apjohn's Estate
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that, under the 40th section of the Land Act of 1896, steps have been taken to sell to the tenants of the late Michael Marshall Lloyd Apjohn their several tenancies on the townlands of Garrison, Nicker, Drominboy, and Ballyvoneen; can he say how far negotiations have been carried; and will he use his best endeavours to see that said sale will be carried out.
The case of this estate was before the Land Judge on the 7th February. An adjournment was granted until June, in order that a rental might finally be settled with a view to the issue of a request for an inspection by the Land Commissioners under the 40th section of the Act of 1896.
Lady De Burgh's Estate
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Land Commissioners, Messrs. Lynch and Wrench, made an order in respect of the values of the various tenancies on the townlands of Drumsally, Dromalta, and Dromcloher, in the parish of Cappamore, county Limerick, on the estate of Lady De Burgh, with a view to have those lands sold to the tenants under the 40th section of the Land Act of 1896; and, having regard to the fact that the tenants and the mortgagees and others interested in the sale have all agreed to the proposed terms, can he say what is now preventing the sale from coming to an issue, and will he take steps that on the earliest opportunity the matter may be brought to a completion.
An Order was issued in January last by the Land Judge for the sale of the lands in question to the tenants under section 40. I understand that the procedure of making the offers is now being carried out.
Irish Head Constables
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state how many "P" head constables have been examined for the rank of district inspector since the rule came into force of working with "P," as above those who passed the educational examination; how many of those men were clerks, and how many of those were clerks at the Castle; and how many of the men who were clerks have been successful at those examinations; whether he is aware that dissatisfaction exists in connection with Mr. Singleton; and can he state how many times this gentleman has presided at the Board of Examiners.
The number of head constables possessing the "P" qualification who have been examined for the rank of district inspector is 59. Only one of these men held the position of clerk, though not at the Castle, and he was unsuccessful. The answer to the second paragraph is in the negative. Mr. Singleton has presided at three examinations.
What is meant by the mysterious "P."?
I believe it means an examination for the rank of District Inspector.
Case Of Mrs Murrihy, Of Tarmon, Clare
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the case of Mrs. Murrihy, of Tarmon, county Clare, a widow, who was evicted; and, seeing that she was sentenced to one month's imprisonment and to find bail for twelve months, or to remain another month in gaol, and was convicted under a practically obsolete Act, will he take steps to have her at once released.
Mrs. Murrihy, on the 9th February last, persistently followed a man and molested him by opprobrious exclamations. She was prosecuted under Section 7, sub-section 2, of the 38th and 39th Vict. cap. 86. But that is the very Act for the protection of Trades Unions, the application of which to agrarian disputes in Ireland was so warmly advocated by some hon. Members from Ireland in an Amendment to the Address. Any representations in favour of the woman's release from custody should be addressed in the usual way to the Lord Lieutenant. I may add, however, that further proceedings are pending against her for similar conduct on the 25th February.
Pembroke (Ireland) Urban Council
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the Report on the accounts of Pembroke Urban Council by the Local Government Board auditor, who refused to grant a certificate on the ground that the abstracts did not represent the position of affairs; whether he is aware that the Report revealed that loans were put to credit of current revenue; that moneys lodged by contractors as security were similarly treated; that false debit balances were shown in the accounts, and that other sums on deposit were ignored; that the sum collected as poor rate had not been all paid over to the county council at the end of the financial year; and that the debit balance had been wrongly stated, while the indebtedness of the council had increased during the year by £16,151 11s. 11d.; whether the Government will take steps to further investigate and set right the financial affairs of this council; and whether they will oppose the Bill promoted by this council for extension of its borrowing powers.
The reply to the first paragraph is in the affirmative. The general effect of the Report was as stated in the second paragraph. The auditor will duly complete the audit as soon as the irregularities in the accounts to which he called attention are set right. I think it only right to mention, however, that a resolution has been passed by the finance committee of the council as to the appointment of a skilled and independent accountant, in order to meet the requirements of the Local Government Board, and that this resolution will be dealt with by the council at its meeting on Monday next.
Roscommon Constabulary
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the county inspector of the Royal Irish Constabulary resides outside the county of Roscommon, and that his office, headquarters, and staff are in a neighbouring county; and, seeing that representations on the subject have been made by a number of the local boards of Roscommon, whether it is intended by the authorities to give effect to these representations by requiring the county inspector of Roscommon and his staff to reside within that county.
The facts are as stated by the hon. Member, it is the intention to give effect to the representations of the local bodies in question as soon as the proposed new arrangements can be carried out.
District Councillor Joyce
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the case of District Councillor Joyce, who has been imprisoned without hard labour for a political offence; and whether such a penalty renders him unable to sit and vote as a district councillor.
The person referred to was not convicted of a political offence, but of conspiracy to intimidate. As his sentence of imprisonment did not carry with it hard labour, he would not appear to be disqualified for being a district councillor.
Wexford District Council
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Messrs. Felix Adams and Patrick Walsh, both members of the Wexford District Council, were disqualified as such by the Local Government Board because they were tenants of labourers' cottages; and, seeing that the Local Government Board have recently addressed a communication to the district councils stating that no legal disqualification attaches to a person by reason of his being a tenant of a labourer's cottage, and that the aforesaid gentlemen have sought to be reinstated on the Wexford District Council, whether he will advise the Local Government Board to relieve the Wexford District Council of the difficulty in which it is placed.
A bench of magistrates in Petty Sessions having decided that tenants of labourers' cottages were disqualified for the office of rural district councillor, the Wexford Council declared the offices held by the persons named to be vacant, and subsequently co-opted two other persons in their stead. Having regard to the recent decision of the King's Bench Division, it is open to the council, if they wish, to choose Messrs. Adams and Walsh to fill the next vacancies on the council, provided, of course, they possess the necesssary qualifications.
In view of the injustice done these gentlemen, will the right hon. Gentleman see that they are reinstated in their membership?
There is no power vested in the Local Government Board to do that.
Is not this another illustration of the improper interference of the Local Government Board?
It is a case of non-interference.
Land Act, 1896, Section 40
I beg to ask Mr. Attorney General for Ireland whether he is aware that when an estate is put in the Land Judges' List for application of the 40th section of the Land Act of 1896, no direct notice is sent to the tenants, and that the only notice they receive is the notice which appears in the law lists of the daily papers; and whether steps will be taken to have direct notice served on the tenants.
Where any question is raised or doubt is found to exist as to whether the 40th section applies to the particular estate, special notice is sent to some of the principal tenants on the estate informing them of the objection which has been raised, and naming the date when it will be considered. The course suggested in the question would largely increase the costs of sale which must be borne by the estate, and, in the opinion of the land judge, is unnecessary.
Poyntzpass Petty Sessional Bench
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that though the Roman Catholics constitute nearly half of the population in the petty sessions district of Poyntzpass, county Armagh, there is not a single Roman Catholic on the bench, and that the resident magistrate, the petty sessions chairman, the dispensary doctor, the postmaster, and four postmen out of five are all Protestants; can he state how long it is since a Roman Catholic sat on the bench in Poyntzpass; and can he hold out any hope that the alleged grievances of Roman Catholics in respect of the above matters will soon be remedied.
I have no official cognisance of post-office appointments. The dispensary medical officer was appointed by the Board of Guardians. With regard to the religious composition of the petty sessions bench, the lieutenant of the county will consider any recommendations that may be made to him.
Hamilton Synge Estate, Armagh
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that twenty-two tenants on the Hamilton Synge Estate, Tullinaval, county Armagh, served originating notices in April, 1899; that their cases were listed, and came before Mr. Edge, at Newtownhamilton, on 19th July, 1900, when they were adjourned at the instance of the receiver, Mr. Meares, who guaranteed to have all requests under Section 40 of The Land Act, 1896, issued at once; that these cases were again adjourned by Judge Ross in November, 1900; and seeing that, though the requests under Section 40 have been issued, the Land Court has not yet sent down two valuers to inspect the holdings, whether he can state when these valuers will be sent; when the cases will be heard; and whether, if not heard before the proposed sale, a reduction in valuation will be made by the Court valuer in proportion to the reduction the tenants would probably have received had their cases come before the Sub-Commission in due course.
In these cases the Land Commissioners, by Order made in November last, adjourned the fair-rent applications pending the result of proceedings under the 40th section of the Act of 1896. The estate is at present being inspected with a view to enable two of the Commissioners to report to the land judge in accordance with the requirements of this section. It would not, in the opinion of the Commissioners, be expedient to carry on the proceedings for fixing judicial rents concurrently with proceedings under Section 40.
Irish Historical Manuscripts—Franciscans' Collection
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if the Historical MSS. Commission propose to publish all the valuable historical MSS. in the collection of the Irish Franciscans, or only that portion of them referred to in the late Sir John Gilbert's Report (Appendix to Report 4, Historical MSS. Commission), and whether the documents recited by Sir John Gilbert are being published in extenso; if he is aware that MSS., some of them in Irish, are included in the MSS. of the Irish Franciscans which have never been examined by any representative of the Commission, including, among other papers, Father Wadding's Correspondence during the Confederation of Kilkenny, and if these MSS. will be published in a subsequent volume to the one now about to be published; and if the Commission will make use of the copies and translations of these documents made by the Franciscan Fathers or on their behalf.
The Commissioners on Historical Manuscripts intend to publish abstracts or copies of all the historical manuscripts belonging to the Irish Franciscans in Dublin, whether previously noticed by Sir John Gilbert or not; but only such of them as are of special importance will be printed at full length. The Commissioners are only aware of one letter in Irish in Father Wadding's correspondence and of one other letter in that language in the rest of the Franciscan collection. These two letters will, of course, be published in their Report on the manuscripts. Use has been made in the preparation of the Report of any copies and translations which the Franciscan. Fathers have kindly placed at the disposal of the inspector under the Commission engaged on the work.
Great Northern Of Ireland Railway—Poyntzpass Level Crossing
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the Great Northern Railway Company, Ireland, allow their trains to remain on the level crossing in Poyntzpass for fifteen or twenty minutes at a time to the obstruction of the traffic; and, seeing that this practice is one of many years duration, whether he will take steps to ensure the construction of a footbridge at least, so that persons may pass through the town without danger or delay.
I have no recent information on the subject of the hon. Member's question, but will cause inquiry to be made. The Board of Trade have not in any case power to order the construction of a footbridge at this crossing.
Poyntzpass Postal Staff
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he is aware that the postmaster in Poyntzpass, county Armagh, Ireland, is a Protestant, and that four out of the five postmen are also Protestants; whether he can state the salaries of each of these postmen; and whether, seeing that the Roman Catholics constitute about one-half of the population of the district, he will see that their claims are not overlooked when future vacancies occur in the above posts.
The Postmaster General is not aware what is the religion of this sub-postmaster or of the postmen under his control, as that is a matter with which the Department is in no way concerned. There are only two established postmen attached to the office, and their wages are 16s. a week each.
Army Reorganisation
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he will now place upon the Paper the terms of the resolution relating to the new Army programme of the Government.
I hope the Secretary of State for War will be able to lay the terms of the resolution on the Table before the House separates for the Easter recess.
Business Of The House
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether there is to be any business on Tuesday besides the motion for the adjournment of the House.
I think the most convenient plan for Tuesday will be to have a morning sitting at 2 o'clock in order to take the motion for the adjournment over the Easter holidays. Of course there will be a 9 o'clock sitting, if the House desires it, to carry on private business; but there will be no Government business on Tuesday except the motion for the adjournment, unless, as I do not anticipate, we are unsuccessful in obtaining the Second Reading of the Army Bill on Monday.
I wish to put a question to the right hon. Gentleman. He has stated that the Demise of the Crown Bill is to be taken on Monday. I would respectfully urge that this Bill raises a very serious constitutional question—namely, whether in certain cases an appointment by the Grown should carry with it vacation of seat in the House of Commons. According to one view of the law, therefore, this Bill will be for present Ministers an indemnity Bill; and I would ask whether it is desirable to push forward such a serious and controversial question on the day before the holidays; and whether it would not be better to postpone the Bill until after Easter.
I do not think that the Bill involves the grave constitutional question which the hon. Member describes; and I think that the House ought to be able very well to decide such a matter on Monday.
The right hon. Gentleman will not entertain the idea of postponement?
There is, as far as I can see, no adequate reason for postponing it.
Message From The Lords
Widows And Orphans Of Soldiers And Sailors
That they have appointed a Committee consisting of seven Lords to join with a Committee of the Commons, pursuant to Message of this House, to consider the various charitable agencies now in operation, and the funds available for relieving widows and orphans of soldiers and sailors, with a view to ensuring that the funds supplied by local and private benevolence are applied to the best advantage in supplementing a scheme of Government pensions for widows and orphans of soldiers and sailors who have lost their lives in war.
Presence Of The Sovereign In Parliament
That they have appointed a Committee consisting of five Lords to join with a Committee of the Commons, pursuant to Message of this House, to consider the accommodation available in the House of Lords when the Sovereign is personally present in Parliament, and the advisability of substituting Westminster Hall on such an occasion for the House of Lords.
New Bills
Housing Of Working Classes (Repayment Of Loans)
Bill to extend the period for the repayment of Loans raised for the provision of Workmen's Dwellings, and to confer further borrowing powers on local authorities, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Hay, Mr. Bull, Mr. Duke, Mr. Evelyn Cecil, Mr. Flower, Mr. Goulding, Mr. Remnant, and Mr. H. S. Samuel.
Housing Of Working Classes (Repayment Of Loans) Bill
"To extend the period for the repayment of Loans raised for the provision of Workmen's Dwellings, and to confer further borrowing powers on local authorities," presented, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Thursday, 18th April, and to be printed. [Bill 133.]
Tramways (Ireland) Acts Amendment
Bill to amend the Law relating to Light Railways and Tramways in Ireland, and to assimilate the Law relating thereto in Ireland to that in England, ordered to be brought in by Mr. O'Doherty. Sir Thomas Esmonde, Mr. Archdale. Mr. Condon, Mr. Lonsdale, and Mr. Carvill.
Tramways (Ireland) Acts Amendment Rill
"To amend the Law relating to Light Railways and Tramways in Ireland, and to assimilate the Law relating thereto in Ireland to that in England." presented, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Wednesday, 1st May, and to be printed. [Bill 134.]
National Gallery (Purchase Of Adjacent Land)
Bill for the acquisition of certain Land near the National Gallery in London, and for purposes connected therewith, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Akers Douglas and Mr. Austen Chamberlain.
National Gallery (Purchase Of Adjacent Land) Bill
"For the acquisition of certain Land near the National Gallery in London, and for purposes connected therewith," presented, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Thursday, 18th April, and to be printed. [Bill 135.]
Widows And Orphans Of Soldiers And Sailors Joint Committee
Ordered, That two Members be added to the Select Committee on Widows and Orphans of Soldiers and Sailors:—Mr. Archdale and Colonel Nolan.—( Sir William Walrond.)
Supply 3Rd Allotted Day
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]
Navy Estimates, 1901–2
1. £1,023,100, Works, Buildings, and Repairs at Home and Abroad.
said that the sum asked for was the largest which had ever been presented under this Vote. To this must be added another amount of much more than two millions for works under the Naval Works Act. The hon. Gentleman was called upon to administer on behalf of the Government an enormous sum, and he heartily congratulated him, and sympathised with him as well, on the great responsibility which rested upon him. The works under the Act were of very great importance, and the House was naturally anxious for the fullest information about them. He should like to know when the Naval Works Bill would be introduced, and whether the fullest opportunities for discussion would be given. If he received an assurance that ample opportunity would be afforded for full debate, then he would not on the present occasion detain the Committee with any observations on naval works, for he would very much prefer to discuss that after the Civil Lord had made the customary statement in introducing the Naval Works Bill.
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asked for some explanation of the proposed expenditure on the boom defences of Southampton. Were not the Southampton Waters already adequately protected by the torpedo establishments at Spithead and the Needles? He would like also some information as to what was being done with the coaling arrangements at Simons Bay. He was told that there were only six lighters there, the biggest of which held but seventy tons, while the tug for moving them alongside was condemned as far back as 1894. In fact, she could not do her work in anything like a breeze. Were the Government and the Admiralty sufficiently alive to the deficiencies in this matter? Further, he wished to inquire if the dredging had been completed at Wei-hai-wei, and were the Admiralty satisfied that sufficient had been done in this matter. Finally, he had to ask what progress had been made for improved coaling facilities at the Falkland Islands.
said he found on reference to the Votes that whereas at English dockyards they were spending hundreds of thousands of pounds, at Haulbowline they only proposed to spend some £4,000 odd. The disparity was very great, and it was rendered all the more remarkable by the fact that the money spent at Haulbowline was distributed over a number of years, and expended very slowly, whereas the money voted for the English dockyards was got rid of with much greater rapidity. He was not complaining of the action of the present Board of Admiralty with regard to Haulbowline, because it had shown a more generous spirit than its predecessor. Seeing that at Chatham, Sheerness, Portsmouth, Devonport, and Pembroke the Vote for works, buildings, etc., amounted to over half a million sterling, the very fact that only £4,200 was to be given to Haulbowline illustrated the niggardly spirit in which the spending authorities of their great Departments dealt with Ireland. Passing on to the Vote for hospitals, he found that at Plymouth it was proposed to expend some £65,000 and at Portland £03,000, but at Haulbowline only £13,000 was to be laid out, and that in spite of the fact that large numbers of His Majesty's ships entered Queenstown harbour and quite recently there had been outbreaks of smallpox, which had rendered it necessary to send some of the men into the hospitals there. He did hope that the £17,000 which it was proposed now to spend at Haulbowline would be spent with dispatch, and that there would be no unnecessary delay in the matter. Then he came to the question of armaments, and here again there was another striking contrast. At Portsmouth £47,000 was to be spent, but the Vote for Bantry Bay was only £2,700, and of that only £700 had yet been laid out. That again illustrated the manner in which the Admiralty treated this question when stations in Ireland were concerned. They had in the Cork post office a still further illustration of this, for the rebuilding of that establishment had been spread over three years, whereas an ordinary contractor would have done the work in six months. He hoped that the Admiralty would make up their mind to push the work forward more rapidly, and treat Irish stations on an equal footing with English stations.
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said that the Naval Works Bill would be brought in later in the session, but the exact date must be left to the decision of the Leader of the House. He hoped, however, that it would be introduced without much delay after the House assembled. Of course, it was not for him to give pledges with regard to the conduct of business, but he was perfectly certain there would be ample opportunity afforded for a full debate. The occasion of the introduction of the Naval Works Bill might be the most convenient time for discussing the great and important works which were included in the Bill. With reference to the position of Southampton, he might point out that it was almost a part of the great naval port of Portsmouth. Circumstances might arise when the Fleet would have to make temporary use of Southampton Waters; and it was for naval purposes and not for commercial purposes that this new defence was provided. Simons Bay and Falkland Islands were portions of great questions which were now receiving the most careful consideration with reference to the coaling of the Fleet. The work at Simons Bay was in progress, but it did not come under this Vote, and a fuller statement on that subject would be made later. The Falkland Islands were under consideration. Some of the work was being put out to contract, progress was being made. The object of spending money at the Falkland Islands was to secure that the position should be made available for coaling the Fleet. Replying to the hon. Member for North Cork, he admitted that the figures quoted by the hon. Member with reference to the expenditure at Haulbowline and Bantry Bay were less than those relating to the great dockyards in England. He assumed, however, that the hon. Member intended to take them in a proportionate sense, and would not expect to have so much money spent at a small dockyard as at a large one.
I pointed out that the disproportion was so enormous.
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said he quite took it that the hon. Member's argument was based on the question of proportion, but he might also inform him that in addition to the sums he had quoted, £12,000 was being expended at Haulbowline, and no less than £63,000 was included in the Naval Works Act for other work in Ireland. He thought that would remove practically any cause of complaint. Altogether a sum of £75,000 was now actually being spent by the Admiralty in Ireland. It should be remembered that in devoting money to Haulbowline as they were now doing they were doing it with the prospect of making still greater use of that dockyard in future years, and of spending a still greater sum on ship repairing and building there. The money they were now voting might be taken as an earnest of what was to be spent in Ireland in the future. With regard to works at Bantry Bay, the hon. Member had complained of the slowness with which the money was being expended, but he would like to point out that it would be impossible to push forward the work with greater rapidity without importing a large quantity of labour from other districts. He did not imagine the hon. Member would desire that, and the Admiralty were acting under the belief that the ordinary population of Bantry would really derive more advantage from a slow and continuous expenditure than if thousands of pounds were laid out in one year.
referred to the question of the rifle range for the Marines at Plymouth. The present accommodation was quite inadequate, and a long way from the town. Last year it was stated that the War Office had acquired a range on Dartmoor, and that the Admiralty had asked that Department to negotiate for a site which should be available for the rifle practice of the Marines. It was understood that there were great difficulties, presumably connected with the landlord element, in the way, and the hon. Member then in charge of the Vote suggested that the time had arrived when the War Office should proceed by Provisional Order. Had the arrangement for this most urgently needed rifle range site been concluded? The hon. Member expressed his approval of the expenditure at various dockyards in the erection of new workshops, and hoped the machinery would be of the most modern description. In some yards the machinery was much behind the times, and it was impossible for work to progress as rapidly as the country desired unless the machinery was up to date. At Devonport two docks had been widened to accommodate second class battleships, but unfortunately the width was not sufficient to accommodate battleships of the size now being built. The era of so-called second class battleships had passed away, and the hon. Member, therefore, suggested that by certain alterations the docks at Devonport could and should be made available for the class of ships now being built.
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, in reference to the item for booms to close the port at Southampton, thought it was the first time such a charge had appeared on the Navy Estimates. The business of the Navy was to keep the ports open, and the access to them clear. Southampton was an inner port in a completely and almost over-defended area, and in that respect differed from other ports. He should be glad if the matter could be explained.
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said this was no new departure; the boom arrangement had existed for some time at Southampton. The money was taken to repair a portion which had been destroyed by fire. It was impossible to regard Southampton as a port not involved in military matters. In connection with the present war, nearly the whole of the troops had gone from Southampton, while if any attack were made which involved Portsmouth harbour, Southampton harbour would be equally exposed; and certainly the hon, and gallant Gentleman the Member for Great Yarmouth would be the last willingly to divorce military from naval operations. It was almost inconceivable, if this country was engaged in any military operations, that the embarkation or debarkation of troops would not be going on at Southampton Water, which it would be the duty of the Navy to safeguard. Therefore, although there might be objections to the principle of applying boom defence to the defence of harbours, if the principle was adopted at all, Southampton was eminently a place at which it should be applied.
thought the charge for booms was rather an Army than a Navy charge. There were two Votes affecting Hong Kong. It was an acknowledged fact that the defences of Hong Kong were in a hopelessly bad state, and it would be interesting to have details of this expenditure. Something certainly ought to be done towards making Hong Kong more defensible now that it had become one of our most important strategic positions in regard to China, A considerable sum appeared to have been spent on dredging in Portsmouth harbour. But a very serious question arose. The entrance to the harbour was very narrow, and the more dredging operations took place the larger became the basin inside, with the result that the dredging had already increased the current in the mouth of the harbour to a dangerous extent. The Admiralty would not be acting wisely if they carried on these operations too largely without widening the aperture for letting the water in and out with the rise and fall of the tide.
asked whether Stanley harbour was being fortified, and urged the advisability of connecting it by cable with the Cape.
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said that the matter of the rifle range for the Marines was entirely in the hands of the War Office, and he believed the negotiations were not yet completed. He understood that a great number of small owners were concerned, but he had no absolute information on the matter generally. In regard to the Devonport docks, they had there at present one dock capable of taking the largest battleship, and new docks which were being constructed would take such ships. It was not felt necessary, therefore, to widen the present docks. In reference to the question of dredging at Portsmouth, that matter was being very carefully watched. There had been dredging above low water, but the volume had not been so largely increased, and this would accelerate the current at Portsmouth Harbour. This dredging had not been done to any dangerous extent. The question of providing guns at Hong Kong was a matter in which the War Office solely was concerned.
Resolution agreed to.
2. Motion made, and Question proposed. "That a sum, not exceeding £359,500, be granted to His Majesty to defray the expense of various Miscellaneous Effective Services, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March. 1902.
asked for some information in regard to the travelling allowance per diem to seamen and Marines. He presumed that the travelling expenses of naval marine officers should be something respectable. What was the amount allowed? Was it so much per day, or so much per hundred miles while travelling from one station to another? Not long ago he saw a steamer travelling to Ireland from Portsmouth with a number of Marines on board bound for Cork. They got in a train on the Great Western Railway, and he was assured that they were only allowed sixpence per day for supper for all the night, and the miserable breakfast they got in the morning. The result was that they were turned out on the quay at Cork more dead than alive. He did not think soldiers travelling all night and having to provide breakfast next morning should be paid the miserable sum of sixpence per day travelling allowance. With regard to Roman Catholic chaplains for the Navy, they were anxious to know if the hon. Member for West Belfast had anything to add in reference to Roman Catholic chaplains being attached to squadrons or services on shore being provided for. A large number of Roman Catholic sailors who joined the Navy were anxious to receive the ministrations of their own faith. So great was the need in this matter that those connected with the Navy at Cork Harbour had established some kind of a guild to provide for these services for the sailors by private subscription. He hoped the Secretary to the Admiralty would have some additional information to give to the Committee in addition to what he gave last week. There was one other matter, to which he referred with some reluctance, and that was the trip of the Duke and Duchess of Cornwall and York to Australia. There was not a proper opportunity afforded a few nights ago when the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil asked how it was that the sum required for this trip was taken without the previous sanction of the House of Commons. He objected to this upon principle, and when the question was asked as to who was responsible for this expenditure being undertaken, the Chancellor of the Exchequer replied. "I am responsible." There was a question of principle involved in that, and the Admiralty should have got the sanction of the House of Commons to such a large expenditure before incurring it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had no right to violate this principle. Fie was quite aware that this trip was contemplated during the reign of the late Queen, and was suggested more or less by her. But neither the Admiralty nor the Chancellor of the Exchequer had asked for the money, and he objected to the idea that because the expedition had been commenced the money was to be voted sub silentio. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had no right to undertake such a responsibility without the previous sanction of the House.
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said the hon. Member was under a misapprehension. The expedition had not been undertaken without the sanction of Parliament. A sum of £35,000 for this expedition was voted by the House on the Supplementary Estimates. If the item was struck out of the present Vote the expedition would have to be recalled, but the constitutional point which had been raised had been fully met. With regard to Roman Catholic chaplains, this Vote did not deal with the payment to chaplains on board ship or those attached to naval institutions. The other matter mentioned by the hon. Member was that the subsistence allowance of sixpence a day was only given to seamen and Marines travelling, from port to port. If the hon. Member could give him the particulars of a specific case he would investigate it. Within the last few days he had had occasion to examine the question of subsistence allowance both for men and boys on journeys from port to port, but he did not find that the facts corresponded with what the hon. Gentleman had suggested had come under his notice.
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said there was one matter on this Vote which had not been mentioned; he meant the Vote for naval attachés. The increase was very large indeed, and he was entirely favourable to it. But no statement had been made as to the character of the new arrangements. What chiefly interested, him was the necessity which undoubtedly existed for appointing really able men as military and naval attaches. If the hon. Gentleman would mention to the First Lord of the Admiralty the interest felt in the House in regard to the personality of the attachés, he would do a good service. It would be practically admitted that in the past the appointments had been of various degrees of merit. These appointments were of the highest possible importance, but that importance depended entirely upon the character of the men selected.
said he wanted to refer to the question which had been mentioned the previous week, namely, the grant to warrant officers of the Distinguished Service Order. Would the hon. Gentleman tell the Committee whether the warrant officers would receive any medal at all, and whether this Vote comprised the medals that were going to be issued in connection with the South African and Chinese campaigns. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman might say whether, since the previous week, the Admiralty had come to any conclusion as to the distribution of the Distinguished Service Order to warrant officers, or, if they were not to receive the distinguished Service Order, what decoration they might expect.
asked if the same rate of pay applied to seamen, the Marines travelling from one ship or station to another, partly by sea and partly by land, as was given to soldiers. He had seen seamen and Marines travelling between Bristol and Cardiff. The boat did not leave Milford till the morning, and could not get to Cork till eight o'clock at night. All that the men were allowed was 6d. for supper and 6d. next day for breakfast. He had asked the officer in charge, who told him that 6d. a day was all that the men got for subsistence. That was a most disgraceful and utterly inadequate allowance.
*
said that unless the men were borne on the ship's books he was not responsible. In regard to what had been said as to naval attachés, it was of the highest importance that the officers appointed to represent the Navy should be selected with the greatest care. It would tend to make the selection of first-rate officers easier if the emoluments were increased. These emoluments were being increased, and the remainder of the increase in the Vote was due to the fact that a fourth naval attaché had been appointed. The hon. Member for Devonport had asked if he could make a statement now in regard to decorations for warrant officers in the South African War and the Chinese campaign. He regretted he could not do so. He should be loth to make any statement until the announcement could be made in a complete form, not only as to the honorary distinctions to be granted, but also as to the question of emoluments. These two questions would have to be dealt with in a different way, and when a decision had been arrived at by the Admiralty, he would be happy to inform the hon. Member.
asked whether the large increase in the Vote for naval attachés was for salaries and expenses in addition to their pay, for he supposed that they got their pay under another Vote. The hon. Gentleman had spoken about some of the salaries being increased and of the appointment of a fourth attaché. Did that mean that there were only four naval attachés altogether?
said he noticed under head A an increase of £6,000, with reference to passage money and the conveyance of officers, seamen, and Marines. He wanted to know how that increase arose, and what proportion was paid to officers, seamen, and Marines respectively.
*
said he could not give the hon. Member the actual details, but the increase in the Vote was due to the fact that more officers and men had been sent out this year for reliefs to South Africa and others had been brought back and had received passages by mail steamers. With regard to the naval attachés, the present arrangement was that these officers received a consolidated rate of pay, and they were also granted, of course, certain travelling allowances, and special allowances for special work. As to their distribution, there were at present two attachés in Europe, with headquarters at Paris and Berlin. There were also two naval attachés whose duty it was to obtain information with regard to naval progress in the United States and Japan.
said that they ought to have had a schedule showing the different rates of passage money for the different classes, and whether the rates varied with different steamship companies.
said there was an item of £2,500, loss by exchange and discount on bills drawn by the accountants on the China and East India stations. Considering the number of rupees given for an English sovereign, there ought to have been a gain instead of a loss.
asked the right hon. Gentleman if he could state the various rates for pilotage and towing of His Majesty's ships. Was this system by tonnage or otherwise?
*
said he was afraid he could not answer the latter question off-hand. He referred hon. Gentlemen to the statute which governed the question of the reduced charges for men, and to the very elaborate details with reference to the particulars and allowances. Pilots were to a large extent dispensed with in His Majesty's ships, but there were some small items for pilotage. The bulk of the sum, however, was for towing.
complained that no answer had been given to the important
AYES.
| ||
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. | Gilhooly, James | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) |
Allen, Charles P (Glouc, Stroud | Goddard, Daniel Ford | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
Ashton, Thomas Gair | Grant, Corrie | O'Dowd, John |
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Harwood, George | O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.) |
Black, Alexander William | Hayden, John Patrick | Oldroyd, Mark |
Blake, Edward | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) | O'Malley, William |
Boland, John | Horniman, Frederick John | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
Boyle, James | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. | Philipps, John Wynford |
Burke, E. Haviland- | Jacoby, James Alfred | Reckitt, Harold James |
Caine, William Sproston | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Reddy, M. |
Caldwell, James | Joyce, Michael | Redmond, John E. (Waterford |
Cameron, Robert | Kearley, Hudson E. | Redmond, William (Clare) |
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Lambert, George | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Smith, Samuel (Flint) |
Cogan, Denis J. | Leamy, Edmund | Stevenson, Francis S. |
Condon, Thomas Joseph | Leng, Sir John | Sullivan, Donal |
Craig, Robert Hunter | Lewis, John Herbert | Tennant, Harold John |
Crean, Eugene. | Lundon, W. | Thomas, J. A (Glamorgan Gower |
Cremer, William Randal | M'Fadden, Edward | Ure, Alexander |
Crombie, John William | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
Cullinan, J. | Markham, Arthur Basil | Warner, Thos. Courtenay T. |
Delany, William | Mooney, John J. | Weir, James Galloway |
Donelan, Captain A. | Murphy, J. | White, Luke (York. E. R.) |
Doogan, P. C. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
Duffy, William J. | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
Dunn, Sir William | O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
Esmonde, Sir Thomas | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid) | Yoxall, James Henry |
Ffrench, Peter | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. | Mr. Flynn and Captain Norton. |
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co. | O'Doherty, William |
NOES.
| ||
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis |
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Arkwright, John Stanhope | Asquith, Rt. Hn Herbert Henry |
Allhusen, Augustus Henry E. | Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John |
question he put. The hon. Gentleman could without referring to any schedule merely give an approximate idea of how much of this sum was for railway and steamboat fares and how much was for the maintenance of the men when travelling on service. As the explanation of the hon. Gentleman had been so unsatisfactory, he moved to reduce the Vote by £100.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item A be reduced by £100."—( Mr. Flynn).
said that when the hon. Gentleman referred to the "statute" he no doubt referred to the Army Annual Bill, which put the allowance at 6d. a day. He contended that that sum was far too small.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 87; Noes, 195. (Division List No. 111).
Austin, Sir John | Hain, Edward | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
Bailey, James (Walworth) | Haldane, Richard Burdon | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay |
Bain, Colonel James Robert | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. | Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham) |
Baird, John George Alexander | Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds) | Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th | Parker, Gilbert |
Banbury, Frederick George | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Partington, Oswald |
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale | Plummer, Walter R. |
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Helme, Norval Watson | Pretyman, Ernest George |
Blundell, Colonel Henry | Henderson, Alexander | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Higgin bottom, S. W. | Purvis, Robert |
Boulnois, Edmund | Hobhouse, Hy. (Somerset, E.) | Randles, John S. |
Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Rankin, Sir James |
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Horner, Frederick William | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne |
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Rea, Russell |
Buxton, Sydney Charles | Hozier, Hon. Jas. Henry Cecil | Renwick, George |
Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge |
Causton, Richard Knight | Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick | Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green) |
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lanes.) | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Rigg, Richard |
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) | Jones, David Brynmor (Swans'a | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson |
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt. Hn Sir U | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) |
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r | Kimber, Henry | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
Charrington, Spencer | Kitson, Sir James | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford |
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
Coghill, Douglas Harry | Laurie, Lieut.-General | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Law, Andrew Bonar | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Lawson, John Grant | Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew) |
Colomb, Sir J. Chas. Ready | Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareh'm | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Smith, H C (North'mb Tyneside |
Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge | Leighton, Stanley | Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks. |
Cripps, Charles Alfred | Levy, Maurice | Spear, John Ward |
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton | Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) | Spencer, Rt. Hn C R (Northants |
Cust, Henry John C. | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Strachey, Edward |
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Stroyan, John |
Dewar, John A. (Invernesshire | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) |
Dewar, T. R. (T'rH'mlets S Geo. | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E. |
Dickson, Charles Scott | Macartney, Rt. Hn. W G Ellison | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Macdona, John dimming | Thornton, Percy M. |
Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon | MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Maconochie, A. W. | Valentia, Viscount |
Duke, Henry Edward | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H (Shef'ld |
Duncan, James H. | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. Hart | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire | Wallace, Robert |
Edwards, Frank | Majendie, James A. H. | Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. |
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Malcolm, Ian | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
Emmott, Alfred | Maple, Sir John Blundell | Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts. |
Faber, George Denison | Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H E (Wigton | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset). |
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Milton, Viscount | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose | Montagu, G (Huntingdon) | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks) |
Fletcher, Sir Henry | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
Garfit, William | Morrell, George Herbert | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
Gladstone, Rt Hn Herbert John | Morrison, James Archibald | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn | Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'rH'mlets | Mount, William Arthur | Young, Commander (Berks, E.) |
Gorst, Rt Hon. Sir John Eldon | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
Goulding, Edward Alfred | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Mr. Anstruther and Mr. Hayes Fisher. |
Greene, Sir E W (B'ry. S Edm'ds | Nicholson, William Graham |
Original Question again proposed.
drew attention to the item of wages of the Metropolitan police employed in the dockyards, and asked if it were intended to make the same concession to the police of Devonport as had been made to the Metropolitan police. That concession had been made in consequence of the high rents the men had to pay in London. It was a matter of common notoriety that the rental conditions prevailing at Devonport were even higher than those prevailing in London. The last Census Returns had called attention to the enormous overcrowding in the town, and showed that a very large percentage of the people were housed in a single room. If the police of Devonport did not get this concession granted to them it would be most unfair. Of course they knew that Devonport was a landlord's monopoly pure and simple. He agreed that the population had no means of extricating themselves, but that was no reason, when a concession was made on a definite basis, that it should not be extended to another place suffering under precisely the same conditions. He begged to move the reduction of this item by £100.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item S be reduced by £100, in respect of the Salaries of the Water Police"—( Mr. Kearley.)
asked whether any portion of the amount for contingent expenses could be used for lodging allowance, or whether anything had been given to these men in the shape of lodging allowance. It would be in the recollection of the Committee that an increase was given to the Metropolitan police force as a special allowance for lodging-house accommodation. It was manifestly unjust that a similar allowance should not be made to the men at Devonport. With regard to the water police, he wished to know whether it was the case that when they succeeded in rescuing a person from drowning they received no compensation whatever, whereas if the individual was allowed to drown and they succeeded in getting out the corpse they were allowed something.
AYES.
| ||
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. | Burns, John | Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) |
Allen, C. P. (Glouc, Stroud) | Buxton, Sydney Charles | Delany, William |
Asher, Alexander | Caine, William Sproston | Dewar, J. A. (Inverness-sh.) |
Ashton, Thomas Gair | Caldwell, James | Dilke, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles |
Asquith, Rt. Hn Herbert Henry | Cameron, Robert | Donelan, Captain A. |
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Doogan, P. C. |
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Carvill, Patrick G. Hamilton | Duffy, William J. |
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Causton, Richard Knight | Duke, Henry Edward |
Bell, Richard | Cogan, Denis J. | Duncan, James H. |
Black, Alexander William | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Dunn, Sir William |
Blake, Edward | Craig, Robert Hunter | Edwards, Frank |
Boland, John | Crean, Eugene | Emmott, Alfred |
Boyle, James | Cremer, William Randal | Esmonde, Sir Thomas |
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Crombie, John William | Ffrench, Peter |
Burke, E. Haviland | Cullinan, J. | Flavin, Michael Joseph |
*
asked whether the hon. Member was speaking of the police on the Thames within the Metropolitan area, or the police under the control of the Admiralty.
said he was alluding to the water police. He presumed they were under the Admiralty if they were in the Admiralty Vote.
*
said the Admiralty had nothing to do with the pay and allowances of the water' police. They were sent down by the authorities of the Metropolitan police for service under the Admiralty in the dockyards, and the Admiralty paid the sum demanded by the authorities of the Metropolitan police with the sanction of the Treasury.
said the Amendment before the Committee raised a question of principle, namely, that an allowance ought to be extended to the men at Devonport. When the question was last before the House the First Lord of the Admiralty promised to inquire into it. The hon. Gentleman representing the Admiralty had not attempted to discuss the question or to give any official answer to the case that had been made out. The hon. Gentleman said this was a question for the Metropolitan police authorities. The authority immediately responsible for this was the Admiralty, If his hon. friend divided the Committee on the question he should feel bound to support the Amendment.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 128: Noes, 173. (Division List No. 112.)
Flynn, James Christopher | Lough, Thomas | Redmond, J. E. (Waterford) |
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Lundon, W. | Redmond, William (Clare) |
Gilhooly, James | M'Dermott, Patrick | Rigg, Richard |
Gladstone, Rt Hn Herbert John | M'Fadden, Edward | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) |
Goddard, Daniel Ford | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
Grant, Corrie | Markham, Arthur Basil | Schwann, Charles E. |
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Mooney, John J. | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
Haldane, Richard Burdon | Murphy, J. | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Smith, Samuel (Flint) |
Harwood, George | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Spencer, Rt. Hn. C R (Northants |
Hay, Hon. Claude George | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Stevenson, Francis S. |
Hayden, John Patrick | O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) | Strachey, Edward |
Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid) | Sullivan, Donal |
Helme, Norval Watson | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Tennant, Harold John |
Hobhouse, C. E H. (Bristol, E. | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. | Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E. |
Horniman, Frederick John | O'Doherty, William | Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gow'r |
Jacoby, James Alfred | O'Donnell, J. (Mayo, S.) | Ure, Alexander |
Jones, David B. (Swansea) | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Wallace, Robert |
Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | O'Dowd, John | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
Joyce, Michael | O'Malley, William | Weir, James Galloway |
Kitson, Sir James | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
Lambert, George | Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
Layland-Barratt, Francis | Partington, Oswald | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
Leamy, Edmund | Philipps, John Wynford | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
Leigh, Sir Joseph | Pickard, Benjamin | Yoxall, James Henry |
Leng, Sir John | Price, Robert John | |
Levy, Maurice | Rea, Russell | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
Lewis, John Herbert | Reckitt, Harold James | Mr. Kearley and Mr. Warner. |
Lloyd-George, Herbert | Reddy, M. |
NOES.
| ||
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex F. | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) |
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) |
Allhusen, Augustus Hy. Eden | Cripps, Charles Alfred | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop) |
Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) | Kimber, Henry |
Arkwright, John Stanhope | Cust, Henry John C. | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. |
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Laurie, Lieut.-General |
Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis | Dewar, T. R (T'rH'mlets, S. Geo. | Law, Andrew Bonar |
Atkinson, Right Hon. John | Dickson, Charles Scott | Lawson, John Grant |
Austin, Sir John | Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants. Fareh'm |
Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Long, Col Charles W. (Evesham |
Bailey, James (Walworth) | Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S |
Bain, Colonel James Robert | Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Lonsdale, John Brownlee |
Baird, John George Alexander | Faber, George Denison | Loyd, Archie Kirkman |
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r. | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) |
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds) | Fielden, Edw. Brocklehurst | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'th) |
Banbury, Frederick George | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred |
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. E. |
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Brstol | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- | Macdona, John Cumming |
Bhownaggre, Sir M. M. | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | MacIver, David (Liverpool) |
Bignold, Arthur | Fletcher, Sir Henry | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) |
Blundell, Colonel Henry | Garfit, William | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) |
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn | Majendie, James A. H. |
Boulnois, Edmund | Gordon, Maj. Evans- (Tr.Hmlts | Malcolm, Ian |
Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middle'x | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Maple, Sir John Blundell |
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Martin, Richard Biddulph |
Bullard, Sir Harry | Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edm'nds | Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H E (Wigt'n |
Butcher, John George | Hain, Edward | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh. |
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. |
Cautley, Henry Strother | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. | Milton, Viscount |
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Harris, F. L. (Tynemouth) | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) |
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy |
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire- |
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.) | Henderson, Alexander | Morgan, David J. (Walthamst.) |
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc. | Higginbottom, S. W. | Morrell, George Herbert |
Charrington, Spencer | Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. | Morrison, James Archibald |
Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brights'de | Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford |
Coghill, Douglas Harry | Horner, Frederick William | Mount, William Arthur |
Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Houldsworth, Sir William Hy. | Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute |
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil | Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) |
Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Nicholson, William Graham |
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow | Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | Royds, Clement Molyneux | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | Sackville, Col. S G. Stopford- | Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. |
Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
Parker, Gilbert | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert | Welby, Sir Charles G. E (Notts. |
Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Sharpe, William Edward T. | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
Plummer, Walter R. | Shaw-Ste wart, M. H. (Renfrew) | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Smith, H C (Northmb. Tyneside | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
Pretyman, Ernest George | Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.) | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
Pryce Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Spear, John Ward | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
Purvis, Robert | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. | Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.) |
Randles, John S. | Stroyan, John | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
Rankin, Sir James | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
Rasch, Major Frederic Came | Thorburn, Sir Walter | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
Renwick, George | Thornton, Percy M. | Young, Commander (Berks, E.) |
Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge | Tomlinson, Wm. Ed. Murray | |
Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green | Tritton, Charles Ernest | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson | Valentia, Viscount | Mr. Anstruther and Mr. Hayes Fisher. |
Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield |
Original Question again proposed.
asked whether the amount for telegraphic communications covered wireless telegraphy, as it had been stated that very important experiments had been made.
*
ruled that, as the item dealing with this matter had been passed, the subject could not now be discussed.
then alluded to the contributions in aid of charitable and religious institutions, and asked what institutions were referred to. There were also contributions in aid of sailors' homes. These were excellent institutions, saving sailors from the temptations which beset them on shore, and tending to preserve their reputation and character, and that only £1,000 should be given to such institutions was parsimony in a direction in which it was not desirable.
directed attention to the large amount required in connection with the special journey of the "Ophir" to Australia. There were £126,000 for hire, and £56,000 for the fitting up, and the fittings were actually to be sold on the return of the ship for £.3,300. It was very desirable that some, explanation of that great difference should be given.
, referring to an item for the hire of foreign interpreters, and commenting on the fact that the bulk of the young fellows entering the Navy had no knowledge of any language other than their own, suggested that the Admiralty would be taking an admirable step in connection with the training of their officers if, instead of troubling about the classics, they insisted that no cadet should be taken into the Navy who had not a good colloquial knowledge of, at all events, German and French. In regard to the training of carrier pigeons, he asked for information as to where the operations were being carried on, and the place to and from which the pigeons were being trained to fly. At Dover he had seen a consignment of pigeons landed from Germany, in the custody of German officials connected with the Army or Navy, and those birds were released at Dover to fly back to Kiel or wherever else they had come from. The Committee were entitled to know whether the Admiralty had similar facilities granted to them with regard to flying pigeons from Germany to England.
*
, who was very indistinctly heard, was understood to state that contributions were made from naval funds only to institutions directly connected with the interests of the Navy, and were usually limited to £50 for each institution. It would no doubt be satisfactory to many if the Admiralty were to give largely to deserving institutions, but the need must be proved before further funds could be asked for. With regard to the "Ophir," the hon. Member for West Islington was wrong in supposing that the £3,300 was for the whole of the fittings. About three-fourths of the fittings would not be required after the conclusion of the voyage, and the contractors were willing to take them back at a fixed price. As to the increase for telegraphic communication, it was due to telephonic connection at the principal dockyard ports.
wished to know the principle on which the £340 now asked for was distributed for religious institutions. If it was between all the religious institutions in the land the amount was very inadequate. It was very important that there should be an equable distribution between the different denominations, and that no invidious distinction should be made between Nonconformists and Church bodies. Precisely the same remark applied to allowances to ministers of religion. With regard to the hire of foreign interpreters, it was admitted on all sides that it was better to have a knowledge of modern languages than of Latin and Greek; and it would certainly be a great advantage for naval officers themselves to be able to speak languages instead of employing interpreters. It was impossible to carry on a really satisfactory conversation through an interpreter, as he was always likely to put his own gloss on the matter.
asked whether the Committee were to understand that these contributions in aid of religious institutions were for the purpose of encouraging or developing religion. If that was the object the amount was totally inadequate. If, however, the contributions were merely doles to certain religious institutions, the Committee were entitled to know whether any undue preference was given to any one sect over another. In regard to the contributions to sailors' homes, he asked how many of those homes there were, and how much was given to each. Surely the home at Portsmouth received more than £50, as it would be manifestly unfair to give only that sum to such a home, doing so much work, and to give an exactly similar amount to some small institution which did comparatively little. As to the hire of interpreters, were those interpreters in out-of-the-way places and for languages not usually studied? It would also be interesting to know whether any incentive was given to naval cadets and officers to perfect themselves in modern languages. In most other navies the officers before they entered the service were encouraged to learn at least English as one language, and special facilities were given to enable them to visit other countries for the purpose of passing as interpreters. A somewhat similar system prevailed with regard to our own officers in the Army, especially those attached to the Indian Army with reference to the learning of Russian. Was there any such system in connection with the Navy? In view of the vast development of the Russian navy, the fact that Russia had now an outlet in the Pacific, and seeing that our Fleet in Chinese waters had been increased, some incentive ought to be given to our naval officers to study Russian. Twenty years ago positively not a single officer in the Army knew Russian, and at the present moment he believed only one officer in the Navy had a knowledge of the language. If any misfortune happened to that particular officer we should have to depend upon an interpreter, who, in all probability, would be a Polish Jew, to negotiate between ourselves and the Russians upon any matter connected with the Navy. The training of carrier pigeons also was a matter of considerable importance. It was known that quite recently a pigeon-loft had been erected at Aldershot, and a distinguished officer placed in charge thereof. In Continental centres pigeons had been used for some time and found of the greatest value, and certainly they could be used with much advantage in the event of naval warfare between ourselves and any Continental Power. He therefore asked whether there was a proper loft for the training of these pigeons; if so, where; and also whether there was any intention of extending the practice, so as to provide a complete system of pigeon carriers throughout the British Isles.
*
said the Committee might rest assured that the small sum of £350 for contributions to religious denominations was not spent in propping up any particular denomination. Small contributions were given in large dockyard towns in assisting institutions connected with the places of worship attended by the sailors, and one denomination was not favoured more than another. With regard to the hire of interpreters, he believed that a considerable portion of the amount was with reference to interpreters in Chinese, and he could hardly suppose, the hon. Member would suggest that naval officers should qualify in that language. It might be possible to encourage the study of French and German among hoys before they entered the "Britannia"; but it was one of the misfortunes of the naval service that it was not possible to give enough leave to junior officers to enable them to study foreign languages abroad. Facilities were afforded for the study of Russian, and a gratuity of £150 was paid to any officer who would qualify as an interpreter in Russian. This year steps had been taken to improve young officers in regard to their knowledge of foreign languages.
said the Secretary to the Admiralty did not state whether opportunities were afforded these officers to study Russian in Russia, as well as granting them £150. No man could acquire a, good knowledge of Russian without six months residence at Moscow. ["Oh, oh."] He was speaking from experience, and he knew that no man could get anything like a knowledge of the Russian language without spending six months in some portion of the Russian Empire. It was absurd to offer £150, because living was so dear abroad. If the only incentive to learn Russian was the granting of a bonus of £150 after a man had succeeded in passing a most difficult examination, this inducement was practically a, dead letter.
said he understood that the answer given by the hon. Gentleman applied to places of worship largely frequented by Marines and seamen. There was an item of £7,300 in the Vote given to ministers of religion. He wished to know whether the sum given to ministers of religion was distributed in the same way as the sum given to religious and charitable institutions. Was it given in a proportionate manner, and without regard to any particular denomination?
*
said that at the ports frequently or occasionally visited by men-of-war money was granted to ministers of various denominations, some of the ministers belonging to the Church of England, others to the Roman Catholics, and some to the Nonconformists. Altogether some 200 or 300 grants were made, varying in amount from £25 to £200. He had no reason to believe that the sums granted were, inadequate. With regard to interpreters, while facilities were given to officers on half-pay to study foreign languages abroad, the duties of the naval service were such that it was very rare indeed that naval officers, especially junior naval officers, could go to foreign countries.
asked if it was at all likely that any naval officer occupying the position of a naval commander could go to Russia to study Russian under such circumstances.
*
replied that it was not at all unlikely. They did it in the Army, and he hoped advantage would be taken of this offer in the Navy.
desired to know on what principle the money granted to ministers was allocated. Was it distributed according to the number of men who attended the services?
*
said that in some cases the money was allocated in accordance with the number of men who attended a particular place of worship, and in some cases according to the services of the minister. If the hon. Member desired to see the list of these ministers he should be very pleased to allow him the opportunity of doing so, and he would give him any further information which he desired. They were spread not only throughout the United Kingdom, but all over the world, and the money was distributed without regard to any particular denominations.
asked if the Secretary to the Admiralty could state whether it was true or not that at the present moment there was not a single commander in the Navy qualified to act as an interpreter in Russian. Some further incentive should be given to officers of all ranks, and they should be placed in the same position as the officers in the Indian Army, who were allowed to draw their full pay, their bonus, and their travelling expenses during the whole time they were away in Russia studying that language. Seeing the importance of officers possessing a knowledge of Russian at the present time, he wished to know whether the Admiralty were prepared to offer the officers in the Navy similar advantages in regard to the study in Russian to those at present offered to the officers in the Indian Army.
said the hon. Gentleman had not told them directly that no denomination was favoured under his scheme. If the sailors went to the Established Church, surely they did not want to give an other salary to the minister. If the sailors went to a Nonconformist place of worship, then there would be an excuse for adding something to the very small salaries which Nonconformist ministers received. They did not want any favouritism displayed, and if the Admiralty were going to endow any particular denomination they would object to it in the strongest possible way. He wished to know by whom the grants were made, He felt that unless he was able to get a satisfactory assurance from the hon. Member on these points he should have to take the sense of the House about giving a new endowment to a particular religious denomination.
pointed out that the Secretary to the Admiralty had not given any information with reference to the training of carrier pigeons. The hon. Member for Devonport raised that question, and he showed that the German
AYES.
| ||
Abraham, Win. (Cork, N. E.) | Black, Alexander William | Cameron, Robert |
Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud) | Blake, Edward | Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) |
Ambrose, Robert | Boland, John | Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton |
Asher, Alexander | Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Causton, Richard Knight |
Ashton, Thomas Gair | Boyle, James | Cogan, Denis J. |
Asquith, Rt Hn. Herbert Henry | Burke, E. Haviland | Condon, Thomas Joseph |
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Burns, John | Craig, Robert Hunter |
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Buxton, Sydney Charles | Crean, Eugene |
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Caine, William Sproston | Crombie, John William |
Bell, Richard | Caldwell, James | Cullinan, J. |
Government gave every possible facility to this system, He wished to know whether the Government were going to afford similar facilities in this country. It was a question of the most important nature, because our international relations were now of a kaleidoscopic character and we ought to be fully prepared. With regard to languages, he knew that a great many Russian officers spoke English, and he thought this language ought to be encouraged more amongst English naval officers.
said that as a protest against the vague manner in which the questions he raised had been answered, he would move to reduce the Vote by £40. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item I be reduced by £40, in respect of Contributions in Aid of Religious Institutions."—(Mr. Lambert.)
said there was only one Church represented on His Majesty's vessels, and that was the Established Church. Therefore the amount voted under this Vote to chaplains was a new form of endowment of the Established Church, and should be so treated.
*
This Vote has nothing to do with chaplains on hoard ship.
*
The hon. Member has mistaken the item, which relates to contributions made to religious and charitable institutions.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Aves, 130; Noes, 183. (Division List No. 113.)
Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Price, Robert John |
Delany, William | Leamy, Edmund | Rea, Russell |
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Reckitt, Harold James |
Donelan, Capt. A. | Leng, Sir John | Reddy, M. |
Doogan, P. C. | Levy, Maurice | Redmond, John E (Waterford) |
Duffy, William.). | Lewis, John Herbert | Redmond, William (Clare) |
Dunn, Sir William | Lough, Thomas | Rigg, Richard |
Edwards, Frank | Lundon, W. | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) |
Emmott, Alfred | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Robson, William Snowdon |
Esmonde, Sir Thomas | M'Dermott, Patrick | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | M'Fadden, Edward | Schwarm, Charles E. |
Farquharson, Dr. Robert | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
Ffrench, Peter | Markham, Arthur Basil | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
Flavin, Michael Joseph | Mooney, John J. | Spencer, Rt Hn C. R. (Northants |
Flynn, James Christopher | Murphy, J. | Stevenson, Francis S. |
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Strachey, Edward |
Gilhooly, James | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Sullivan, Donal |
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Tennant, Harold John |
Goddard, Daniel Ford | O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) | Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E. |
Grant, Corrie | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid. | Thomas, J. A. (Glam., Gower |
Griffith, Ellis J. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Wallace, Robert |
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | O'Connor, James (Wicklow) | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
Harmsworth, R. Leicester | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
Harwood, George | O'Doherty, William | Weir, James Galloway |
Hayden, John Patrick | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | White, Luke (York, E. K.) |
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
Helme, Norval Watson | O'Dowd, John | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) | O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon. N.) | Wilson, Fred. W (Norfolk, Mid. |
Horniman, Frederick John | O'Malley, William | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Yoxall, James Henry |
Jacoby, James Alfred | Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham | |
Jones, David B. (Swansea) | Partington, Oswald | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.) | Phillips, John Wynford | Mr. Lambert and Mr. Kearley. |
Joyce, Michael | Pickard, Benjamin | |
Kitson, Sir James | Power, Patrick Joseph |
NOES.
| ||
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Clare, Octavius Leigh | Garfit, William |
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. F. | Gordon, Rt Hn J E (Elgin & N'irn |
Allhusen, Augustus Henry E. | Coghill, Douglas Harry | Gordon, Maj. E. (T'wer H'mlts. |
Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon |
Arkwright, John Stanhope | Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Goulding, Edward Alfred |
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O | Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready | Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edm'nds |
Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis | Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athol'e | Halsey, Thomas Frederick |
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (M'dx) |
Austin, Sir John | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. |
Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th) |
Bailey, James (Walworth) | Cranborne, Viscount | Haslam, Sir Alfred S |
Bain, Colonel James Robert | Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Hay, Hon. Claude George |
Baird, John George Alexander | Cross, Herb, Shepherd (Bolton) | Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley |
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r | Cust, Henry John C. | Henderson, Alexander |
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Higginbottom, S. W. |
Ban bury, Frederick George | Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. |
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Dewar, T. R (T'rH'mlets, S Geo. | Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside |
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H (Bristol) | Dickson, Charles Scott | Horner, Frederick William |
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Dilke, Rt. Hon Sir Charles | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry |
Bignold, Arthur | Dimsdale, Sir J. Cockfield | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse |
Bigwood, James | Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred. D. | Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick |
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) |
Boulnois, Edmund | Duke, Henry Edward | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) |
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Kenyon-Slaney, Col W. (Salop.) |
Bull, William James | Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart | Kimber, Henry |
Bullard, Sir Harry | Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Lambton, Hon. Frederick W'm. |
Butcher, John George | Faber, George Denison | Laurie, Lieut.-General |
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn F M ward | Law, Andrew Bonar |
Cautley, Henry Strother | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Lawson, John Grant |
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Finch, George H. | Lee, Arthur H(Hants., Fareh'm |
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage |
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Long, Col. Charles W (Evesham |
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- | Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. |
Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. | Lonsdale, John Brownlee |
Charrington, Spencer | Fletcher, Sir Henry | Loyd, Archie Kirkman |
Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Nicol, Donald Ninian | Smith, H C (Northumb Tyns'ide |
Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. |
Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | Spear, John Ward |
Macartney, Rt Hon W G Ellison | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
Macdona, John Cumming | Parker, Gilbert | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Peel, Hn. William Robert W. | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Penn, John | Thornton, Percy M. |
Majendie, James A. H. | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Tomlinson, William Edw. M. |
Malcolm, Ian | Plammer, Walter R. | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
Manners, Lord Cecil | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Valentia, Viscount |
Maple, Sir John Blundell | Pretyman, Ernest George | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
Martin, Richard Biddulph | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. |
Maxwell, Rt. Hn Sir H E (Wigt'n | Purvis, Robert | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
Maxwell, W. J. H. (Damfriessh. | Randles, John S. | Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts. |
Meysey Thompson, Sir H. M. | Rankin, Sir James | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Rasch, Major Frederick C. | Wilson, Arthur S. (York, E. R. |
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Rentoul, James Alexander | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire | Renwick, George | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w | Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green) | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N. |
Morrell, George Herbert | Richie, Rt. Hon. Charles T. | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
Morrison, James Archibald | Royds, Clement Molyneux | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
Mount, William Arthur | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) | Young, Commander (Berks, E.) |
Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) | Sharpe, William Edward T. | Mr. Anstruther and Mr. Hayes Fisher. |
Nicholson, Wm. Graham | Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew) |
Original Question again proposed.
said he understood that the Government would be not unwilling to meet them in reference to certain Estimates if they granted facilities for the passage of Votes 10, 11, 13, and 15. Vote; 5 was a labour Vote, in which, as a South London Member, he took very special interest, for it contained a very hard case of some 300 men who were employed by the Government at a wage of only 20s. per week, out of which they were obliged to pay some 9s. per week for rooms. This was a scandal to any Government, and he took it that this Vote would not be placed after Votes 8, 9, and 12, but that Vote 2 would be taken first.
*
reply was inaudible.
said he did not wish to prolong the discussion in regard to naval interpreters, but the answer he had received had been most unsatisfactory. He expressed the hope that increased facilities would be given to naval officers to acquire Continental languages.
asked if the question of the Catholic chaplains in the Navy could be raised on Vote 11, or whether it would be more properly taken on Vote 12.
*
did not think the question of Catholic chaplains in the Navy could be raised on the Vote under discussion, as what was proposed was to give a sum of money to ministers of religion on shore.
said be wished to put it to the Secretary to the Admiralty that if it were good policy to have religious services for sailors of all denominations, it was part of that policy that the Estimates should contain an allowance for chaplains on shore. He had been told by men connected with the Navy that the service ashore was not altogether of the kind which met the spiritual needs and habits of the sailors. For that reason, it was very difficult to get the sailors to leave their ships and go to service on shore. Therefore, if the Secretary to the Admiralty had to choose between having a chaplain on shore and a chaplain with a place on board ship, and chose the former, he would be making an unwise decision, and one not in consonance with the feelings and habits of sailors. This was a question on which his countrymen felt very strongly. It had been raised for a quarter of the cen- tury, and no solution of it had yet been found.
*
said that the Vote was not for any services held on His Majesty's ships. It was simply for allowances, either by grant or contribution, in respect to attendance on the services of ministers who were not connected in any way with the Royal Navy.
accepted the statement of the hon. Gentleman, but said he would take an, early opportunity of calling attention to the fact that not a single penny was given to any minister except ministers of the Church of England. He had not the slightest objection to ministers of the Church of England receiving allowances; but it was unfair that the Roman, Catholic and the Nonconformist ministers received no allowances. He would also raise the question, of the rank of Catholic chaplains on board ship and on, shore. The Catholic priest on, shore did not get the same rank as the Protestant clergyman.
said he had no desire to go to a division, for the hon. Gentleman had met them very fairly; but they must have some explanation in regard to the question of interpreters. The hon. Member for the Stroud Division of Gloucestershire had told him that he bad spent six months in Russia, and that the result was practically nil; and, therefore, unless some special incentive was given to officers to study languages, the result would be that in Chinese matters they would have no officer capable of interpreting in Russian, He hoped the hon, Gentleman would do everything possible to give an incentive to either halt pay or full pay officers to study languages.
*
said that the hon. Member for West Newington had exaggerated a little but was in the main correct. He had worked very hard at Russian at home, and then went out to Russia, where he studied for six months, working eight hours a day, and living with a Russian family the whole time. At the end of that period he found that, while he could get along well enough with reading novels and the newspapers, he could not read documents or anything of that kind. His experience was that nobody could go to Russia and learn Russian to an extent that would be really useful under twelve months solid hard work.
Question put and agreed to.
3. £790,900, Half-Pay, Reserved, and Retired Pay.
4. £340,600, Civil Pensions and Gratuities.
5. £219,000, Medical Establishments and Services.
6. £10,200, Martial Law, etc.
said he wished under this Vote to refer to the ineligibility of Marine officers to sit on courts-martial when afloat. They had the privilege when ashore not only to sit on courts-martial but even to act as president; but, notwithstanding the fact that the Marine officers constituted one-fifth of the personnel of the Navy, they had not that right when serving afloat. This matter was brought before the House many years ago by Sir John Pope Hennessy, who was assured by the First Lord of the Admiralty of the day that the mutter would be remedied, He, in fact, went out of his way to emphasise his definite promise by saying that the Naval Lords of the Admiralty recognised the justice of the claims of the Marine officers. He was aware that it was said that if this claim were to be conceded the doctors and the paymasters would demand the same privileges, He had nothing to do with that. All he asserted was that the Marines were a large and effective force in the Navy, and thought by some to be the best body of men in the service of the country; and it was monstrous that they should be excluded from this privilege, and it bred a great amount of discontent. The seaman part of the Navy entertained a pre judice against Marine officers sitting on courts-martial; they would exclude everybody from enjoying any privilege which they enjoyed. They had also the greatest possible objection to giving the engineer officers the position they ought to take; but he did not raise that point specifically at this moment, although engineer officers were precluded from sitting on courts-martial. He appealed to the hon. Gentleman, and to any fair-minded man in the House, as to whether this privilege should any longer be denied to the Marine officers, and he hoped that the hon. Gentleman would be able to give a pledge that this injustice would be remedied.
*
said he entirely supported the view that Marine officers who were combatant officers, and who were equal in every respect, except that of handling the ships, to the naval officers should be eligible to sit on courts-martial on board ship. It did not follow that any admiral at sea would be compelled to appoint a Marine officer on any particular court-martial, but Marine officers should be eligible to sit according to their rank, He well remembered the distinct pledge given by a former First Lord of the Admiralty that this would be remedied. He wished to take exception, to the use of the word "prejudice," on, the part of naval officers, by the hon. Member for Devonport. Whatever prejudice there might have been in the past there was none now. Looked at from every point of view, to concede this function to the Marine officers would be to the advantage of the public service. He would remind the Committee, more over, that the Marine officers, whether infantry or artillery, were the only officers instructed in the principles of law. He knew how keenly this matter was felt in the service, and, in the interests of the efficiency of the service and the well-being of the Fleet, he hoped it would be remedied.
said that Marine officers not being eligible to sit on courts-martial at sea, involved not only an, injustice to the Marine officers, but to the men. The Marines would have much greater confidence in the equity of the courts-martial if their own officers were allowed to sit upon them.
*
said that the hon. Members who had spoken had put very forcibly their arguments in favour of the concession. It happened that at present officers of the Royal Marines were qualified to sit on courts-martial ashore, but not afloat. In his opinion, if ever the Admiralty were to change their views with regard to this subject, it appeared to him that it would be preferable that the Marines should take their places on courts-martial as officers of the Navy, and not merely as assessors representing the Marines, there being, as far as he was aware no such want of confidence in the existing courts as had been suggested by the junior Member for Devonport.
Resolution agreed to.
7. £100,600, Educational Services.
8. £65,800, Scientific Services.
Army Estimates, 1901–2
9. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £119,200, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge for Establishments for Military Education, which will come in course, of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1902."
pointed out that no one representing the War Office was present, and asked whether, under the circumstances this Vote might he postponed.
asked whether, seeing the difficulty in which the Committee was placed, it would not be better to postpone the Vote until the questions which it was desired to raise could be, answered by some representative of the War Office.
The hon. Gentleman appreciates what has happened. The arrangement between the two sides of the House has produced, as it sometimes does, an amazing drying up of the fountains of eloquence, with the result that Votes have been obtained with regard to subjects which to all appearances would have kept the Committee many hours in discussing. This is very satisfactory and gratifying, but my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for War, not expecting this happy consummation, has gone to the War Office to carry on his exceptionally laborious duties. I have, however, telephoned for my right hon. friend, and expect him to arrive in a few minutes; so if hon. Gentlemen do not mind putting their questions, I will take them down and my right hon. friend will be able to answer them when he comes.
disclaimed any desire to take an unfair advantage of the absence of the Secretary for War. He desired to point out that a stereotyped sum of £550 was put down for promoting efficiency in languages. This was exactly the same sum as had been voted last year, and he regretted that the War Office had not seen fit to offer an increased incentive to our officers to study modern languages. At the present time we were suffering severely in South Africa from the lack of knowledge on the part of our officers of the Dutch language. He contrasted the difference between the expenditure of this country in this May with that of continental countries, and urged that facilities should be given to officers to learn the language of every country with which we were likely to beat war.
suggested that the War Office ought to go a, little further, and in Army schools I acuities should be given to learn foreign languages. It was, he said, absurd to suppose that the ridiculous sum of £550 was sufficient for a nation like this to spend on such a subject. The War Office had not grasped the importance of the question. Every year more men of superior education entered the ranks in the hopes of obtaining a commission, and every facility should be given in the Army schools for men to acquire, at all events, a knowledge of French and Gorman. Possibly it would be a little difficult to learn Chinese in London, although, no doubt that could be accomplished with great trouble. Something might be done also for the non-commissioned officers, with great deal of advantage to the Army and themselves, by a more modern system of what in civil life was called secondary education for the young men who were training for Army school-masters. He hoped there would he less of the hide-hound idea of the War Office in putting down this stereotyped sum. The hon. and gallant Member had referred to the absolute lack of knowledge of Dutch among our officers in South Africa, but he had always noticed that it a man learnt a language there was no recognition of the fact. He hoped when the Army Estimates were gone into next year special attention would be given to these subjects.
suggested that some system analogous to that in force in India should be adopted. Certain bonuses were given when a certain standard of efficiency was reached in the various languages of India. That system had, so far as India was concerned, given very beneficial results, and should be adopted here with regard to European languages.
The hon. Gentleman pleads the same cause as he did when the Navy Estimates were before the House, and I have considerable sympathy with the views expressed, and I have no doubt that it would be of advantage to both the naval and military Services if there were more knowledge of foreign languages among the officers. But the English are not a nation much given to learning foreign languages. I think my hon. friend goes rather too far in suggesting that Chinese is one of the languages which our soldiers ought to learn, for the reason, as I have been informed by gentlemen familiar with Chinese trade that the common means of communication even among the Chinese themselves is by what is known as pidgin English. When we come to French and German it is a different matter, but I notice my right hon. friend has now returned to the House, and he will deal with the subject as affecting his Department.
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said that when he raised this question last year considerable sympathy was expressed from the Treasury Bench. He noticed, however, that the amount in the Estimates remained as before, and no move whatever had been made in the mutter, so far as he could see. It was a very important matter, and he hoped something would be attempted before the Estimates came up for discussion next year.
said He would consider well the subject before presenting the Estimates
AYES.
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Acland Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Faber, George Denison | Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) |
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Fellowes, H on. Ailwyn Edward | Norton, Capt. Cecil William |
Allen, Charles P (Glouc., Stroud | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens |
Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay |
Arkwright, John Stanhope | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn | Parker, Gilbert |
Atkinson, Rt. Hn. John | Gordon, Maj Evans- (TrH'mlets | Partington, Oswald |
Austin, Sir John | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Peel, Hn. Wm. Rbt. Wellesley |
Bailey, James (Walworth) | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Philipps, John Wynford |
Bain, Colonel James Robert | Grant, Corrie | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
Baird, John George Alexander | Greene, Sir E. W. (B'ry S Edm'ds | Plummer, Walter R. |
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Halsey, Thomas Frederick | Pretyman, Ernest (George |
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds | Hamilton, Rt Hn. Ld. G (Midd'x | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. | Randles, John S. |
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol | Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Rankin, Sir James |
Bell, Richard | Harris, F Leverton (Tynemouth | Rasch, Major Frederick C. |
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Harwood, George | Rea, Russell |
Bignold, Arthur | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Rentoul, James Alexander |
Bigwood, James | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Renwick, George |
Bill, Charles | Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley) | Richards, Henry Charles |
Black, Alexander William | Helme, Norval Watson | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green |
Blundell, Colonel Henry | Higginbottom, S. W. | Rigg, Richard |
Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Horniman, Frederick John | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson |
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney |
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
Bullard, Sir Harry | Kearley, Hudson E. | Seton-Karr, Henry |
Caldwell, James | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. | Kimber, Henry | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
Cautley, Henry Strother | Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm. | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
Cavendish, V. G. W (Derbyshire | Laurie, Lieut.-General | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Law, Andrew Bonar | Smith, H C (North'mb Tyneside |
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Lawrence, William F. | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks) |
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J (Birm. | Lawson, John Grant | Spear, John Ward |
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc. | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Spencer, Rt Hn C R. (Northants |
Charrington, Spencer | Lee, A. H. (Hants, Fare'm | Stevenson, Francis S. |
Clare, Oetavius Leigh | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
Coghill, Douglas Harry | Leng, Sir John | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. | Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E. |
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Levy, Maurice | Thomas, J. A. (Glaming., Gower |
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Lewis, John Herbert | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S | Valentia, Viscount |
Craig, Robert Hunter | Loyd, Archie Kirk man | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
Cranborne, Viscount | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E. |
Cremer, William Randal | Lyttelton, Hon. Allied | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Macdona, John Gumming | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton | Maconochie, A. W. | Weir, James Galloway |
Cust, Henry John C | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire | Welby, Sir Chas. G E. (Notts |
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Malcolm, Ian | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. | Manners, Lord Cecil | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
Dewar, T. R. (T'rHmlets, S. Geo. | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
Dickson, Charles Scott | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset) |
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | More, R. Jasper (Shropshire) | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R. |
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Morgan, D. J. (Walthanistow | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
Duke, Henry Edward | Morrell, George Herbert | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
Dunn, Sir William | Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Morton, Edw. J. G. (Devonport | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks) |
Dyke, Rt Hon. Sir Wm. Hart | Mount, William Arthur | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R (Bath) |
next year. In the press of many matters since be came into office this particular Vote had not engaged his attention.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 179; Noes, 47. (Division List No. 114).
Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm | Young, Commander (Berks, E. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George | Yoxall, James Henry | Mr. Anstruther and Mr. Hayes Fisher. |
NOES.
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Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
Ambrose, Robert | Joyce, Michael | O'Dowd, John |
Boland, John | Leamy, Edmund | O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.) |
Boyle, James | Lundon, W. | O'Malley, William |
Burke, E. Haviland | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | M'Dermott, Patrick | Pickard, Benjamin |
Cogan, Denis J. | M'Fadden, Edward | Power, Patrick Joseph |
Condon, Thomas Joseph | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Reddy, M. |
Crean, Eugene | Murphy, J. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
Cullinan, J. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Redmond, William (Clare) |
Delany, William | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
Doogan, P. C. | O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) | Sullivan, Donal |
Duffy, William J. | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid) | White, Patrick (Meath, N.) |
Ffrench, Peter | O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.) | |
Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
Flynn, James Christopher | O'Doherty, William | Captain Donelan and Mr. Patrick O'Brien. |
Gilhooly, James | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) |
10. £218,200, Miscellaneous Effective Services.
11. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not, exceeding £1,485,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge for Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals, and the In-Pensioners thereof; of Out-Pensions; of the maintenance of Lunatics for whom Pensions are not drawn; and of Gratuities awarded in Commutation and in lieu of Pensions, of Rewards for Meritorious Services; of Victoria Cross Pensions; and of Pensions, &c., to the Widows and Children of Warrant officers, Non-Commissioned Officers, and Men, &c., which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1902."
wished to raise the question of the pensions granted to the widows and orphans of those who had fallen in active service in South Africa. This was an important new departure on the part of the Government. It had for the first time recognised its responsibility towards the dependents of those who had sacrificed their lives in the service of the State. He was sure the country viewed with great pleasure this new departure, and they would vote the money with the greatest satisfaction, because the country had become aware of the fact that in recent years much suffering had happened to the widows and dependents of those who had fought courageously for us in various parts of the world, and for whom no provision had been made by the State in the past. With regard to the amount the Government had detailed to the various ranks he had nothing whatever to say. Seeing that it was taxpayers' money, he thought a provision of 5s. per week, and 1s. 6d. per child, for the widow of an ordinary soldier or sailor was as much as could reasonably be expected. The pensions rose according to the rank or rating of the man who lost his life. He could not understand why the pensions were being withheld so long. A Committee had recommended that the pensions should be paid as from 1st April, but they were being withheld until 1st July. Even then the pensions were only to be given to the widows and orphans of those who were on the married establishment; the widows and orphans of men who married off the strength, that was (he supposed) without permission, were to be ignored so far as the Government was concerned. This was inexplicable. What was to become off these widows and orphans? The husband and father fought for his country, and the country would not recognise the distinction which the War Office was trying to make. If these widows were to be handed over to the tender mercies of the Patriotic Commission, Cod help them! The past history of the Commission had been exposed and condemned by every newspaper throughout the land. When money got into the Commissioners' hands it stopped in that stagnant pool and its circulation ceased. The Soldiers' Effects Fund should be applicable to the pensions which the War Office proposed under this Vote. He asked the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War whether in future the money belonging to that fund should not be handed over to the Patriotic Commission for administration.
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You cannot discuss that on this Vote.
, said he was sorry he could not proceed with that subject, because this was the only opportunity for raising it. During the debate, on the Address in reply to His Majesty's Speech, when an Amendment was moved, they were debarred from raising the question. The hon. Member asked the Secretary for War to give the reasons which had influenced the War Department to come to the decision that the widows of men who married off the strength of the regiment were not to get the benefit of this Vole. They were probably the most numerous of the whole lot. He was sure the country would be painfully shocked when it realised that these widows were to be left to look for assistance to outside funds. He hoped it was not too late now to come to some other decision.
said that as a soldier he agreed that some distinction should be made between the widows and orphans of men borne on the establishment of regiments and those who had married off the strength. But surely the latter should have some allowance, if not the same allowance as the widows and orphans of men who had been on the strength. He did not mean that they should be placed exactly on a par with the widows and orphans of men whose conduct had been exemplary, but he thought some consideration should be shown to them. The whole history of the Patriotic Fund was that the Commissioners of the fund had made no effort to help those who properly came on the fund. So he hoped something would be done for the widows and orphans of those who, although they married off the strength of their regiments, had also died in their country's service.
expressed the hope that the Government would do more for the survivors of the men who had married off the strength. The men had sacrificed their lives for the country, and a generous view ought to be taken of the cases of those whom they had left in a state of destitution. The number of men who married off the strength was very great. If a man gave his life for the country the question of discipline should be sunk and something should be done in a spirit of generosity. He suggested also that the pay of a man who had been killed should be continued to his widow until she became entitled to the pension she was to receive.
stated that in the House of Lords on Monday last Lord Monkswell asked—
In reply to that question the Duke of Marlborough said—"whether any alterations had been made since the commencement of the South African War in the dates and system of awarding pensions to soldiers disabled by wounds and sickness due to active service; and whether His Majesty's Paymaster General, as Chairman of the Board of Chelsea Commissioners, could give any information on the subject."
The hon. Member said he had had many instances brought to his notice in which men had been in receipt of one shilling a day. That seemed to be in direct contradiction to the statement by the Duke of Marlborough. He thought a statement should be made to the House showing exactly what these men were entitled to. Referring to the non-effective Vote for officers and men, he said he thought that, unless some greater provision was made for the men, the scheme to increase the number of men in the Army would be a serious disappointment to the House."that it would be very unfortunate if there were any wounded soldiers going about the country who were not adequately provided for. Previous to the South African War—for example, the campaign in Egypt—soldiers who were wounded, and consequently discharged from the Service, received an award from the Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital at a rate which they considered to represent the permanent loss in the earning power of the individual as a result of his wound. In the case of private soldiers who were partially able to earn, the rates varied from 6d. to 1s. 6d. In the case of soldiers who were quite unable to earn, the rates were from 1s. 6d. to 2s. 6d. These pensions, when granted, became permanent. Since the commencement of the South African War no alteration had been made in the rate of the pensions to wounded soldiers in the Royal Warrant. That was to say, no wounded man, partially disabled, could get more than 1s. 6d., and no man who was totally disabled could get more than 2s. 6d. But the Commissioners had unanimously decided to make a somewhat new departure, and, in nearly every case, to grant the maximum amount of pension at once."
The hon. Member who introduced this subject put one or two questions with regard to the widows of men who have died in the war. I know full well how great is the sympathy of the House for the men who have lost their lives in the war, and for those whom they have left behind them. The Government has for the first time in our history recognised the claims of these widows by giving pensions to the widows of non-commissioned officers and men. In taking that step they have been fully justified by the feeling of the country. But hon. Gentlemen have trenched on rather a difficult question by proposing that this advantage should be given, not merely to those who are married on the strength, but also to those who are married nut on the strength of a regiment. That point has been very carefully and sympathetically considered by the Government. The Government are the guardians of the public purse in this matter, and the charge which is likely to accrue will be a very heavy one. But there is also something besides that. It is not the desire of the Government that the great majority of soldier's who join at the age of eighteen should marry at an early age and have families dependent upon them. In the first place, a soldier's pay does not properly allow of it, and, secondly, he has to move at any moment from his station and go abroad, and a large number of families would mean a serious impediment. On the other hand, if these families are left behind it will entail the greatest possible misery and privation to those who become dependent on soldiers who can only spare a very small amount out of their pay. If we were to go back on our decision with regard to pensions, to give them only to those married on the strength, we should be encouraging to a very great extent this kind of improvidence, and when we sent the men abroad we should have to give separation allowances to their wives and families. That would be an enormous charge to contemplate. Then there is another difficulty. There are three classes, I believe, who at this moment are entitled to separation allowances. The first are the men of the Reserve who are married, the second those who are married on the strength, and the third those who have married in anticipation of going into the Reserve and have been kept on by the terms of service until the end of the war. My constituency abuts on Aldershot, and I can say this, that when the Reserves were called up in November of 1899, it being found that separation allowance was being granted and also that money was being granted from charitable funds to the wives of those who went on active service, a very large number of marriages took place, in the cases of Reservists who were not already married, within a day or so of embarkation. There were a considerable number of cases in which men who sailed on 7th November had married on 25th November or 26th November, and whose wives claimed at once to have the allowance. I think the step proposed would be very unwise, more especially as there are charitable funds which are available for the limited number of widows, as they are at present, who married men off the strength. With regard to the administration of the Patriotic Fund, I had the pleasure of silting on a Committee with the hon. Member respecting that fund, and. I was in favour, as the hon. Gentleman was, of more generous distribution of the fund. It was found that the administration of the fund was economical in the first degree, and that the money went straight to those for whom it was intended. But we thought that a larger class might be included, and the inquiry about to take, place will deal with that point. There is no doubt whatever that those widows who cannot be provided for by the Government, owing to the regulations giving the allowance only to those on the strength, can and will be provided for by the Patriotic Fund. I think the House would be unwise to insist on provision being made out of public funds on their behalf. The rules and regulations have not yet actually been got out, and will not be got out by the 1st April. Therefore 1st July has been adopted as the most convenient date. I really do not think that the provision which Parliament is asked to make for the widows of those who have fallen in the war is an illiberal one. Certainly my own desire has been to get this subject settled on an efficient and proper basis, remembering, as I do, that there is the strongest disposition on the part of Parliament, after these Votes have been given and when abuse has been found to have occurred, to find fault with the Government for not having foreseen the point at which they should have stopped. I hope in this particular case, having in view the extreme undesirability of putting in the way of our soldiers the temptation of making improvident marriages in the hope of getting separation allowances, the Committee will rest satisfied with the arrangement the Government propose. Attention called to the fact that forty Members were not present. House counted, and, forty Members being found present—
asked whether the Secretary of State for War could not see his way clear to make adequate arrangements whereby those men who were returned from South Africa partially or totally disabled should not have to eke out an existence on the mere pittance of one shilling a day. Many of these men had wives to keep, and it was a scandal that those men who had fought our battles in South Africa, and who had been incapacitated, should be compelled to live on charity. He noticed that the amount put in the Estimates for non-effective officers was something like £800 more than it used to be. It was the first duty of the Government to make ample provision in their Estimates for those soldiers who were incapacitated in the war, and who were thus prevented from earning their own living. He had seen in his own district many men who had been totally incapacitated, and they told him that all they got was one shilling a day. He should be very glad if the Secretary of State for War would state whether it was not possible to make some reasonable provision for these men.
said he could not allow the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War to pass without some comment. The decision of the War Office in respect to the case of soldiers who married off the strength had been arrived at, they were told, as a question of policy. The question of justice and common humanity was left out of consideration altogether. The widows of men who had lost their lives in the service of the country were not to receive pensions, because, as a matter of policy, it would be inexpedient to encourage men to marry.
Does the hon. Member suggest that the whole Army should be allowed to marry off the strength?
replied that the right hon. Gentleman was simply begging the question. At the present time we were recognising the claims of some widows who were no more entitled to recognition than in the instances he had raised. At present the War Office recognised the claims of the widows of Reservists who married a day or two before they sailed for South Africa. The right hon. Gentleman said that if they recognised the claims of the widows of those soldiers who had married without consent, that would be encouraging others to do the same. The real question was whether these widows were to have uniformity of treatment, and that question had been evaded by the speculative theories put forward by the Secretary for War as to what might happen if these widows were recognised. Did the Government propose to throw these women and children on the world to pick up promiscuous charily? If that was so, he had no hesitation in saying that such a decision would not receive the approval of the country. A great number of Reservists, when they discovered that funds were being raised, married a day or two before going out to the war. Did the right hon. Gentleman suggest that those men married in order to get the paltry sum which was offered them? It was a feature of this war that many of their officers married just before they went away. Did the right hon. Gentleman allege that they married with some ulterior motive? The Secretary for War had told them that the number of the class of widows for whom he was pleading was very few, and sooner than bring them into this Vote the right hon. Gentleman preferred to make them an exception in order not to encourage young soldiers to marry. It the House of Commons were left to decide the question there would not be a vote against including in the pension list the whole of these widows. The right hon. Gentleman went out of his way to endeavour to whitewash the Patriotic Commissioners. He was free to admit that the Committee which sat on the administration of the fund found no abuses in regard to expense of management, and so on; but they did find that the Commissioners had hoarded instead of administering the funds at their disposal, and he hoped the day was not very remote when those funds would be taken out of their hands altogether. He wished to know what was to be the medium through which this payment to the widows was to be made. Were the payments to go through the Army and Navy officials, or through some other outside body? They bad perfect confidence in the War Office and the Admiralty administering the pensions, but if it was to be delegated to the Patriotic Commissioners, there would be a, good deal of objection. When these men went away a year ago amid the cheering crowds, everybody declared that their widows would not suffer, and that the country would look after them. Now that the war fever had died out they were asked to accept the decision that the unfortunate widows and orphans of those who married off the strength were to be cast upon the world to pick up such sustenance as they could in the day of their trouble.
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