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New Bill

Volume 178: debated on Wednesday 24 July 1907

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State Reformatories Bill

"To provide for the detention in State Reformatories of young persons convicted of indictable offences, and for purposes incidental thereto," presented by MR. Secretary Gladstone; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 290.]

Evicted Tenants (Ireland) Expenses

Resolution reported, "That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of expenses incurred and compensation payable by the Estates Commissioners in relation to land acquired under any Act of the present session, to facilitate the provision of land for certain evicted tenants in Ireland, and for other purposes connected therewith, and to authorise the National Debt Commissioners to make advances to the Land Commission for certain purposes of such Act"

Resolution agreed to.

Evicted Tenants (Ireland) Bill

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[MR. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]

moved to remove from the operation of the clause "land subject to an annuity to the Land Commission." It would be within the recollection of the Committee that on the previous evening the Chief Secretary and the Attorney-General had agreed that some consideration should be given to the case of those new tenants who had contracted with the State and had become owners in fee of their holdings. That, no doubt, was subject to qualification, but there was no reason why that qualification should exist in the present case. As it stood, the Estates Commissioners were to have the power to determine the tenancy of the new tenant where they had acquired the tenant's land. He thought it was an arbitrary distinction on the part of the Government to say that a tenant who had bought under the Land Purchase Act was to be excluded whilst a tenant who had simply signed an agreement which the head of ! the Land Commissioners decided was a sale was to be rendered liable to the compulsory methods of the Bill. He hoped the Government would see their way not to draw any such arbitrary an illogical conclusion.

thought the Amendment was out c order. The question it gave rise to was precisely the same as that which was raised by the hon. Member for Wes Waterford the previous night.

said the point the hon. Member for West Waterford wanted an answer to on the previous night had reference to the tenant purchaser, and upon the Amendment before the Committee that day they were simply debating the same question,

said he had some doubts upon this matter. He had under stood that the point just raised by the hon. Member for North Armagh was different from that raised by the hon. Member for West Waterford the previous day, but he had been waiting to see what was the hon. Member's argument.

contended that they were now dealing with a different state of affairs at a different stage of the Bill. There was no reason why different considerations should not apply at different stages.

What is the difference between a tenant purchaser and a person holding an annuity subject to the Land Commission?

said that at present he wanted to know the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown as to whether or not this arbitrary distinction was to be carried into the section. He thought he was entitled to ask about the matter.

If the Amendment s to the same effect as the Amendment which was decided last night, then it cannot be moved.

said it was not to the same effect. The question they discussed last night was whether or not new tenants were to be included with tenant purchasers. As he understood it, the Government said that where a tenant had ceased to be a tenant and had become a purchaser by vesting order he was to be exempt, but they gave no undertaking with regard to the tenant becoming a purchaser by signing an agreement. He wished to know what course the Government were going to take in the latter case.

If we adopt this Amendment we shall be adopting, as I now am informed, something which we decided not to adopt last night, and therefore it is not in order.

said the first part of the question which they were discussing last night was distinctly replied to by the Chief Secretary. With regard to the second part, however, viz., the case of people signing agreements but not having a vesting order, the Chief Secretary said that the Government would give the matter consideration at a later stage of the Bill.

That does not affect the point we are on now. The Amendment is not in order, and therefore we cannot go on with it.

said he wished to move an Amendment providing that all persons interested in the land should receive the notice mentioned in the section. In the clause as it stood at the present time it did not seem to be an obligation on the Estates Commissioners to give any notice to any one except the new tenant. He could not see that the right hon. Gentleman would have any objection to embodying his Amendment in the clause. It was only fair that all persons interested should receive full notice under the Bill. There might be a considerable number of persons having an interest in the land beside the person actually in occupation.

Amendment proposed —

"In page 3, line 28, after the word ' tenant' to insert the words 'and all persons interested.'"—(MR. Charles Craig.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

said he could not accept the Amendment. He did not think the hon. Member realised what it proposed to do. This notice was in the nature of a notice to quit. Special power was given to the Estates Commissioners to exercise their rights as landlords and determine the tenancy in exactly the same way as the former landlord would do. The Estates Commissioners took the place of the landlord and served the notice to quit, as provided by the section, upon the tenant alone. The Commissioners had no power to find out the various persons interested in the holding. There might be people who had charges and mortgages upon the land, but the tenant was the only man paying the rent and, therefore, he was the person who would be served. The hon. Member would see that a subsection of the same clause provided that where a new tenant was put in possession of a parcel of land in lieu of an old tenancy an order would be made to transmit all charges and liabilities from the old tenancy to the new; therefore, no one could be injured by the transfer, and there would be no need to serve the notice upon a number of persons.

regretted that the right hon. and learned Gentleman could not see his way to accept the Amendment. It seemed to him a perfectly reasonable one, and the principle it embodied had already been adopted in the Land Act. It was undoubtedly a case in which the mortgagees and others interested would have their security substituted for another. They must recollect that they were not dealing with a plot of land for labourers' cottages, but with land which might be described as an "estate." It was the first step in the sweeping away of an old security, and yet the people who were interested were not to be consulted. It was conceivable that the tenant might be a bogus tenant who had no beneficial interest in the holding. All his interest might be vested in his creditors, and yet the tenant was to have the entire control of the negotiations with the Estates Commissioners. If they were not to have public inquiries which by their very publicity were a safeguard, the least the Government could do was to secure that the people who were interested in the transaction should have an opportunity of stating their case before the Estates Commissioners. Not only the tenant in name, but the people who were tenants in fact, should have the opportunity of knowing when the first step was to be taken to set in motion the whole compulsory machinery which would terminate the tenancy in which they had invested their money. For this reason he supported the Amendment.

said the hon. Member who 'had just sat down had let the eat out of the bag when he described these tenants, upon whom the Opposition had wasted such gallons of salt tears, as "bogus tenants" and men who had not a shilling of their own.

continuing, said the hon. Member had described them as "bogus tenants," and that was exactly what he (MR. Healy) and his friends had been contending all along. He thought the hon. Member had rendered a public service to his country. As to the bogus tenant, he had a knack of disappearing, and he would suggest that service should be by registered letter. He thought it was very necessary in the case of bogus tenants to prevent their hiding, or making away with themselves temporarily, that personal service should not be necessary. He suggested that the right hon. Gentleman before the Report stage should consider whether, as in the case of an ordinary tenant, or ejectment, it would be quite enough that the bogus tenant should be served by registered letter.

thought it was rather poor advocacy on the part of the hon. and learned Gentleman

said that that did not make it any fairer—it was rather poor debate to attribute to his hon. and learned friend a statement he had never made. His hon. friend had never said that these new tenants were bogus tenants, but he had referred to cases in which the tenant was not really the person interested in the holding. The hon. Gentleman was very anxious that not a single individual should be injured by the operation of this Bill, and if there was a single case in which the new tenant had incurred an obligation or liability to other people, either under a deed of settlement or a mortgage security, it was essential that the persons entitled under the security should have an opportunity of being heard. He thought the words suggested by his hon. and learned friend were a little too wide, and he would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman the words, "any person interested under a registered encumbrance." All they would have to do would be to search the register, which would certainly not add anything to the expense. Supposing one of these tenants had a marriage settlement: the trustee of the settlement might be the father of the tenant's wife, and might live beside the holding. If this new tenant were transferred to another county, surely the trustee of the settlement or the mortgage creditor was entitled to have a voice as to the place to which the security was to be transferred, or as to what security was to be taken in exchange for the one he had got. That was ordinary justice conceded to every owner of land, purchaser or vendor, in Ireland. He could not understand why any difficulty was raised in this case merely because the tenant happened to be one of those objectionable persons known to hon. Members below the gangway as new tenants.

said he would like to point out to the right hon. Gentleman that the principle of the Amendment was already admitted in Subsection (5) of the preceding clause—

"'The Estates Commissioners shall, upon making such offer, give notice in the prescribed manner to all persons known or believed by them to be interested in the land of their intention to acquire the same at a fixed price, etc."
It seemed to him that if they carried the principle out in that part of the Bill they could equally well do it in Clause 3. If it could be done in one part of the Bill, he could not see what extra difficulty there would be in doing it in that part to which this Amendment applied.

suggested the adoption of the words, "in such manner as they may prescribe," which would meet the entire case referred to by the right hon. and learned Member for Dublin University.

said he did not see why they should circumscribe the proposal by the insertion of such words. What they wanted was that every person interested in the land to be acquired should receive due notice of the fact that the tenant was to leave the farm within six months or whatever the period might be.

said that any Amendment in this direction would place the Commission, in its capacity of landlord, in a different position from any other landlord in the country.

said the hon. Member did not know what he was talking about. The landlord at present could evict a tenant by simply serving upon him notice to quit, and all those interested in charges or encumbrances would have to look after themselves; but in the case of this new tenant they wanted all sorts of new-fangled regulations

said the person interested in the security should have some say in the transfer of that security, and he thought the words suggested by the hon. and learned Member for Louth might be accepted, with the addition of other words, making the whole read, "In such a manner as they shall prescribe to all other persons interested."

said he would at least ask the right hon. Gentleman to accept his original proposal.

said the hon. Member for South Antrim had not withdrawn his Amendment, which was still before the Committee. As to the point put by the hon. and learned Member for Louth, under the terms of the section notice could be served in the same way as a notice to quit, which could be either personally served or sent by letter, and he did not think there had ever been any great difficulty in serving a notice to quit. It would also be in the power of the Estates Commissioners, under the 22nd Section of the Act of 1903, which was incorporated in the Bill, to make rules dealing with the mode of service. He was much obliged to the hon. and learned Gentleman for his suggestion on the point, and between now and the Report stage he would consider whether it was necessary to make any alteration in the Bill. As regarded the Amendment before the Committee, the hon. Member adhered to its words and refused to accept any alternative suggested.

said he had not refused, and he would be very glad to accept the words, "In such a manner as they shall prescribe to all other persons interested."

said he thought the simple words of the section best provided for serving notice on the new tenant. That was what the landlord had to do now, and it was what the Commissioners could do in their capacity of landlord.

asked whether, if he had a mortgage on a certain piece of land in Ireland from which A, the tenant, was turned out and put into another place, he would have no chance of saying whether he would or would not accept the new security. Was that really so? Was he to understand that the right hon. Gentleman, as a lawyer acting for one of his clients, who was a mortgagee, would be perfectly willing to accept some other property altogether, without having any voice in the change of security?

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has ever served a notice to quit upon a tenant. If so, did he consider himself bound to serve notice on the mortgagee as well as on the tenant?

said this was a case in which compulsion was being exercised; the other was a voluntary arrangement. His own experience as to serving notices to quit was peculiarly limited, and he hoped it would long continue to be so. They were here dealing with a change of security compulsorily effected, and all they asked was that notice should be given to the person the validity of whose security might be affected.

said this was not a mere question of determining the interest in the tenancy. The mortgagee might wake up some morning and find that his mortgage had been transferred to land in another county.

said this provision applied only where the Estates Commissioners had acquired tenanted land. In those circumstances how did the question of the mortgage arise?

said it applied to the land they had acquired subject to a tenancy. What happened was that the mortgagee's interest was taken from him and transferred to what had been stated to be a better security, and therefore he had a right to say whether it was a better or a worse security. Why should the mortgagee not have his choice as to whether his security should be transferred or not? An analogy had been j drawn between this and the service of a writ of judgment. There was an express rule in the rules of the Court that every person in occupation of the premises should be served with notice, and before judgment could be obtained similar notice had to be served upon every person who was in occupation of any portion of the evicted premises. He could not see why the Estates Commissioners should have any difficulty in serving notices on the people they believed to be interested in the holding.

submitted that this discussion was out of order. Subsection (5) of Clause 2 provided that—

"The Estates Commissioners shall, upon i making such offer, give notice in the prescribed | manner to all persons known or believed by them to be interested in the land of their intention to acquire the same at the aforesaid price"
Therefore they would have actually acquired the land, given notice to all the persons interested, and they would have got everything except mere possession. They were only dealing now with the mere acquiring of what was legally the property of the Estates Commissioners.

It is very difficult for a layman like myself to grasp with these legal questions arising on the complicated Irish Land Acts. As I understand the hon. and learned Member for North Armagh, he contends that after the acquisition of the landlord's interest under Clause 2, there is still left the question of the tenant's interest. That being his argument, it is a question of merits, and I think I ought not to deal with it as a matter of order.

said that in this matter they were following precedent under the Lands Clauses Act. Under all Acts where compulsory powers were taken notice was required to be given, not only to the actual tenant, but to all persons interested in the tenancy. If the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shropshire had to serve notice-to-quit upon a tenant, it would not be necessary to serve notice upon every person interested. The law was that if they served notice on the tenant that was sufficient to determine the tenancy, and they followed that rule. The difficulties of the Estates Commissioners under this Amendment would be insuperable, for they would have to undertake that all the interests created in any of these holdings by the new tenants should be served with personal notice, and that would be impossible.

said that them an might receive compensation before the person who had a charge or claim on the tenancy could do anything, and he might get off to Australia or America without his mortgagee or the person in charge of his farm having a chance of receiving a single penny. Surely it was not the intention of the Government to leave the persons who had advanced money on a farm open to such a risk as that. Under this Act a good many of the new tenants would elect to take compensation and therefore they were open to that very serious danger.

said that if they were going to transfer the new tenant to a new home which was to be as good as his old one his mortgage would be secured, but what was to happen if the new tenant elected to take compensation? Was the compensation going to be paid without any inquiry as to whether it ought to be paid to the tenant or to some person who had a charge upon the holding? He thought the Estates Commissioners should make certain that they were paying the money to the right person.

said the subject had been considered most carefully, and if the right hon. Gentleman would read the third sub-clause he would see that his point was amply provided for. Under the Act of 1881 when a landlord exercised this right he was bound to pay full compensation to the tenant. If there was

Acland-Hood,RtHn Sir Alex. F.Fardell, Sir T. GeorgePowell, Sir Francis Sharp
Anson, Sir William ReynellFletcher, J. S.Randles, Sir John Seurrah
Askley, W. W.Forster, Henry WilliamRatcliff, Major R. F.
Balcarres, LordGretton, JohnRemnant, James Farquharson
Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeHarrison-Broadley, H. B.Ronaldshay, Earl of
Banner, John S. Harmood-Hay, Hon. Claude GeorgeRutherford, John (Lancashire)
Baring, Capt. HnG. (Winchester)Hervey,F.W.F.(BuryS.Ed'ds)Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Barrie,H.T.(Londonderry, N.)Hill,Sir Clement(Shrewsbury)Stanley,Hon.Arthur(Ormskirk)
Beckett, Hon. GervaseHills, J. W.Starkey, John R.
Bowles, G. StewartHunt, RowlandStone, Sir Benjamin
Brotherton, Edward AllenKennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)
Bull, Sir William JamesKenyon-Slaney.Rt.Hn. Col. W.Thornton, Percy M.
Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)Tuke, Sir John Batty
Carlile, E. HildredLiddell, HenryValentia, Viscount
Castlereagh, ViscountLockwood,Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col.A.R.Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Cavendish,Rt.Hn.Victor C.W.Long.Rt.Hn.Walter(Dublin,S.)Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Chamberlain,RtHn.J.A.(Worc)Lowe, Sir Francis WilliamWillougrhby de Eresby, Lord
Chaplin, Rt.Hon. HenryMarks, H. H. (Kent)Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.Moore, William
Collings, Rt. Hn. J. (Birming'mMorpeth, ViscountTELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr
Courthope, G. LoydO'Neill, Hon. Robert TorrensCharles Craig and MRT L.
Faber, George Denison (York)Pease,HerbertPike(Darlington)Corbett.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)Asquith,Rt.Hn.Herbert HenryBarnard, E. B.
Acland, Francis DykeAtherley-Jones, L.Beck, A. Cecil
Adkins, W. Ryland D.Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)Bell, Richard
Agnew, George WilliamBaker, Joseph A. (Finsbury,E.)Bellairs, Carlyon
Ainsworth, John StirlingBaring.Godfrey (Isle of Wight)Bertram, Julius
Alden, PercyBarker, JohnBethell.Sir J.H (Essex.Romf'rd)
Ambrose, RobertBarlow, Percy (Bedford)Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

any doubt as to who should receive the compensation it was lodged in the Court and the Land Commission determined the matter. Precisely similar results would follow in the case of a holding where a new tenant elected not to take an alternative holding.

said the right hon. Gentleman was mistaken. The section referred to by the Attorney-General had been incorporated for the purpose of awarding the compensation and not for paying it. The Estates Commissioners would have no power to bring to their aid Section 1 of the Act of 1881 which was not incorporated. The only section incorporated was Section 5. If the right hon. Gentleman would insert words showing that his intention was to incorporate the machinery of the Act of 1881 for paying over the compensation as well as awarding it the point would be met.

Question put.

The 'Committee divided:—Ayes, 62; Noes, 274. (Division List No. 309.)

Black, Arthur W.Halpin, J.Nicholson, Charles N.(Doncaster
Boland, JohnHammond, JohnNolan, Joseph
Bowerman, C. W.Harcourt, Rt. Hon. LewisNorton, Capt. Cecil William
Branch, JamesHardy, George A. (Suffolk)Nussey, Thomas Willans
Brigg, JohnHart-Davies, T.O' Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid.
Bright, J. A.Harwood, GeorgeO'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Brooke, StopfordHaslam, Lewis (Monmouth)O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Burke, E. Haviland-Haworth, Arthur A.O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnHayden, John PatrickO'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Burnyeat, W. J. D.Hazleton, RichardO'Grady, J.
Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasHealy, Timothy MichaelO'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N)
Byles, William PollardHedges, A. PagetO'Malley, William
Cameron, RobertHenry, Charles S.O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)O'Shee, James John
Carr-Gomm, H. W.Higham, John SharpParker, James (Halifax.)
Chance, Frederick WilliamHobart, Sir RobertPartington, Oswald
Cheetham, John FrederickHobhouse, Charles E. H.Pearce, William (Limehouse)
Cherry, Rt, Hon. R. R.Hogan, MichaelPerks, Robert William
Clancy, John JosephHolland, Sir William HenryPickersgill, Edward Hare
Cleland, J. W.Holt, Richard DurningPirie, Duncan V.
Clough, WilliamHope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N.Power, Patrick Joseph
Clynes, J. R.Horniman, Emslie JohnPrice, C.E.(Edinburgh, Central)
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Hudson, WalterPrice, Robert John (Norfolk, E)
Condon, Thomas JosephJackson, R. S.Pullar, Sir Robert
Cooper, G. J.Jacoby, Sir James AlfredRainy, A. Rolland
Corbett, C.H.(Sussex, E. Grinst'dJardine, Sir J.Raphael, Herbert H.
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Jones, William(Carnarvonsh're)Rea, Russell (Gloucester)
Cotton, Sir H. J. S.Jowett, F. W.Redmond, John E.(Waterford)
Cox, HaroldJoyce, MichaelRedmond, William (Clare)
Craig, Herbert J.(Tynemouth)Kearley. Hudson E.Rees, J. D.
Crean, EugeneKelley, George D.Rendall, Athelstan
Cremer, Sir William RandalKennedy, Vincent PaulRenton, Major Leslie
Crombie, John WilliamKettle, Thomas MichaelRichards, T.F. (Wolverh'mpt'n)
Crooks, WilliamKilbride, DenisRichardson, A.
Cullinan, J.Laidlaw, RobertRidsdale, E. A.
Curran, Peter FrancisLambert, GeorgeRobertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee)
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)Lardner, James Carrige RusheRobertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Davies, Timothy (Fulham)Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)Robinson, S.
Delany, WilliamLea, HughCecil (St. Pancras, E.)Robson, Sir William Snowdon
Devlin, JosephLewis, John HerbertRoche, Augustine (Cork)
Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Roe, Sir Thomas
Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancras, N.Lundon, W.Rogers, F. E. Newman
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.Lupton, ArnoldRunciman, Walter
Donelan, Captain A.Lynch, H. B.Russell, T. W.
Duckworth, JamesMacdonald, J. R, (Leicester)Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)
Duffy, William J.Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs)Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)
Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-FurnessMackarness, Frederic C.Scarisbrick, T. T. L.
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)MacLean, DonaldSchwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)
Dunne, Major E. Martin(WalsallMacNeill, John Gordon SwiftScott, A.H.(Ashtonunder Lyne)
Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)Macpherson, J. T.Sears, J. E.
Elibank, Master ofMacVeagh, Jeremiah(Down, S.)Seaverns, J. H.
Erskine, David CMacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)Shackleton, David James
Essex, R. W.M'Callum, John M.Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Faber, G. H. (Boston)M'Killop, W.Shaw, Rt. Hon. T.(Hawick, B.)
Farrell, James PatrickM'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Ferguson, R. C. MunroM'Micking, Major G.Sherwell, Arthur James
Field, WilliamMaddison, FrederickShipman, Dr. John G.
Flavin, Michael JosephManfield, Harry (Northants)Silcock, Thomas Ball
Flynn, James ChristopherMansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
Foster, Rt Hon. Sir WalterMason, A. E. W. (Coventry)Sloan, Thomas Henry
Fuller, John Michael FMasterman, C. F. G.Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Fullerton, HughMeagher, MichaelSnowden, P.
Gilhooly, JamesMeehan, Patrick A.Soares, Ernest J.
Gill, A."H.Menzies, WalterSpicer, Sir Albert
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert JohnMoney, L. G. ChiozzaStanley, Hn A. Lyulph (Chesh.)
Glendinning, R. G.Mooney, J. J.Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Glover, ThomasMorgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)Strachey, Sir Edward
Goddard, Daniel FordMorgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)Straus, B.S. (Mile End)
Gooch, George PeabodyMorrell, PhilipStuart, James (Sunderland)"
Grant, CorrieMorton, Alpheus CleophasSutherland, J. E.
Grayson, Albert VictorMurnaghan, GeorgeTaylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)Murphy. JohnThomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)
Greenwood, Hamar (York)Nannetti, Joseph P.Thorne, William

Tomkinson, JamesWatt, Henry A.Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Torrance, Sir A. M.Wedgwood, Josiah C.Wilson,J.W.(Woreestersh.,N.)
Toulmin, GeorgeWhitbread, HowardWilson, P. W. (St. Paneras, S.)
Trevelyan, Charles PhilipsWhite, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Verney, F. W.White, Luke (York, E.R.)Winfrey, R.
Walsh, StephenWhite, Patrick (Meath, North)Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Walton,SirJohn L. (Leeds, S.)Whitehead, RowlandYoung, Samuel
Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
Ward, John(Stoke upon Trent)Wilkie, AlexanderTellers for the Noes—
Wardle, George J.Williams, J. (Glamorgan)Mr Whiteley and Mr J A
WasonRt.HnE.(Clackmannan)Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)pease.
Wason.John Cathcart(Orkney)Williamson, A.
Waterlow, D. S.Wills, Arthur Walters

moved an Amendment to provide that twelve instead of six months notice to quit should be given by the Estates Commissioners in cases where new tenants were to be dispossessed of their holdings in order to reinstate evicted tenants. He said the section as it stood did not state that the notice was to run from any particular day of the year. The Estates Commissioners could give notice on any day of any month, and it was obvious to any person who had any knowledge whatever of agricultural operations that it would be highly inconvenient and cause considerable pecuniary loss if a tenant received notice to quit at the wrong period of the year. The ordinary dates were 1st May and 1st November, and he did not suppose there would be quite so much objection if it was known that notice would be given on one of those dates. It would be unfair to ask a farmer to give up his holding, say, in the middle of July or August. The date on which a farmer was to give up his holding should be carefully considered in reference to the operations on the particular class of farm lie occupied. On the other hand if twelve months notice was given the occupier would have ample time to make arrangements for quitting the farm at the end of the period.

Amendment proposed—

"In page 3, line 30, to leave out the word 'six,' and insert the word 'twelve.'"—(MR. Charles Craig.)

Question proposed, "That the word ' six ' stand part of the clause"

said he had endeavoured as far as possible to follow the precedents to be found in previous land legislation for Ireland. In the Congested Districts Act of.1901 provision was made for six months notice, and he was not aware that any evil consequences had followed. Under previous legislation six months notice had been found to be ample time in Ireland, and certainly it was ample time in England. By doubling the time they would only postpone the object they had in view.

said the statement of the right hon. Gentleman had not a real bearing on the point raised by the Amendment. In the case of the congested districts the need was urgent, and the legislation went through the House practically unopposed. This Bill had been brought in to settle quite a different problem in regard to which there had been a good deal of feeling. There was not the same ground for opposition to the congested districts legislation, and, therefore, it was not a fair analogy to compare it with this contentious measure. The ordinary tenant in Ireland was entitled to twelve months notice. That was in the Act of 1877, but under this hostile Bill the existing tenant was to be forced to quit in six months. There was no analogy whatever between this Bill and the 5th Section of the Act of 1881 which applied to compensation and pre-emption. There the tenant went out voluntarily and had made all his plans and arrangements. The time of year when the tenant was preparing the ground for crops was that between November and May; and, therefore, if he was transferred under the Bill as it stood to the new farm in May, he would not have time to perform tillage operations and would therefore lose the year's crops. A tenant's labour was his capital, and he could not be expected to labour on his farm from November to May when he knew he would have to leave it and would not reap the result of his work. He maintained that six months notice was too short. He assumed that they were going to give the tenant notice on gale day. He agreed with what his hon. friend had said, that this Bill ought to be worked by gale days and as part of the land code. Surely it would be a reasonable thing to make the notice run for twelve months from the gale day next' after the service of the notice.

said that the right hon. Gentleman was unfortunate in his references to English land laws and customs. Under the Agricultural Holdings Acts there was twelve months notice to quit from a particular day. Therefore the right hon. Gentleman was incorrect again. He would suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should make it worth his while to go across the floor and sit beside him in order to supply him with information on English land law.

asked whether, if this Amendment were voted upon, it would be open to him to move the next Amendment standing in his name, to leave out "six months service thereof" and insert "twelve months from the gale day nest after the service of such notice."

said that, as a point of order, the hon. Member would be entitled to strike out from the word '' months "and insert" from the gale day next after the service of such notice."But the hon. Member could not discuss it now if he meant to move it later.

said he was at a loss to understand why the right hon. Gentleman was so anxious deliberately to draw an analogy from a statute which was a hardship to the tenant, and had overlooked various statutes both in Ireland and England under which the tenant was entitled to twelve months notice to quit. He would not personally object to six months if the right hon. Gentleman would give him an assurance that the tenant would get compensation for loss sustained if he had to leave his crops on the ground behind him or was compelled to dispose of them or his chattels and stock by forced sale. Of course, where a tenant quitted his holding voluntarily and the landlord pre-empted, the notice was six months, but that was a different thing. In the cases he had 'mentioned it was only justice that the tenant should receive twelve months notice to quit, which was the case with every other tenant in Ireland by the operation of the ordinary law

said that the right hon. and learned Member for Dublin University had complained of the analogy drawn by the Chief Secretary. That analogy was taken from the Lands Clauses Act under which, when the money was lodged in Court, the purchaser was entitled to get possession in a period of six months. In dealing with cases of compulsion why not follow the procedure of compulsion? He was inclined to think that six months was too long.

stated that in reality the tenant would have much more than six months notice, because he would know from the moment that the Estates Commissioners opened negotiations that the land was to be acquired for particular purposes. He would, therefore, know long before the notice was served what was to be done. Moreover, the Estates Commissioners were bound to offer alternative farms so that there would be no interference. The tenant would go out of one farm into another. The Estates Commissioners, of course, were not fools, and they would undoubtedly arrange that the transference should take place at the most convenient time of the year. At the present time it was the usual practice that transferences should take place towards the end of the year when the grazing was all over and the harvest had all been got in. It was not to be supposed that the Estates Commissioners, as some hon. Members seemed to suggest, would seek to irritate and annoy everybody as much as possible. They would see that the notice was served at a reasonable time. A long notice was not really required. The hon. Gentleman said, "Why not fix the notice to quit as running from the next gale day? "For the very good reason that the Estates Commissioners would have no power; the gale days were an arrangement between the landlord and his tenants; and in many cases there was no fixed gale day. As to compensation, as he understood the law, the Land Act of 1881 gave the fullest compensation for every possible inconvenience to which the tenant was put under that Act. Assuming that a tenant would not take an alternative farm, but desired to go out of possession finally, the Bill provided that he should have the compensation given under the Act of 1881. That Act, he understood, gave the fullest compensation to tenants, for it gave them the full market value of the holding which would undoubtedly cover crops, stock, and chattels.

pointed out that if notice was given that the farm was required by the 1st May, the diligent farmer's crops would all be in the ground at that period and it would be a most intricate and complicated matter for any Estates Commissioner or assessor to ascertain the compensation to be paid to a farmer under such circumstances. He agreed that it was not probable that the Estates Commissioners would serve a notice which would take effect on the 1st May, and he assumed they would serve a notice which would take effect on the 1st November, at which time most changes in agricultural tenancies took place; but he thought that some alteration should nevertheless be made in the provision in regard to notice. If the first day of May was a possible day for these new tenants to be dispossessed, he thought it possible some hardship might arise, because no farmer doing his work properly would enter upon the performance of the ordinary routine work of a farm if it was possible that he might be dispossessed on the 1st of May in any year.

alluding to the fact that the Attorney-General for Ireland had said that the Amendment of his hon. friend was not necessary because the new tenant would not want more than six months notice as the Estates Commissioners were;buying land for him somewhere else, pointed out that there was no possible means under the Bill by which the tenant could ascertain where the land to be acquired for him was situated. How could a tenant in the south of Ireland possibly know that the Commissioners were acquiring land for him in the north of Ireland?

observed that what he had said was that the tenant would know that the landlord's interests were being acquired in regard to the farm he occupied, and he would also know that land was being secured for him elsewhere before the formal steps were taken.

said he did not see what that had to do with the matter. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to think that leaving one farm for another was like a man in an hotel going up from the first floor to the second. But it was not so easy for a man to leave a farm as the right hon. Gentleman seemed to think. He did not think that the Estates Commissioners would intentionally inflict injustice, but surely the Committee ought to make such injustice impossible.

said that on the first blush the argument of the Attorney-General for Ireland seemed to be a reasonable one, because the new tenant would under the Bill be put in to another farm; but looking a little-further in to it he contended that the argument would not hold water at all. A parcel of land might be offered to the tenant which was not suitable for him at all. The tenant might say, "I think the land which you offer to me is not at all equivalent in value to my farm, and therefore I do not think it will suit me to take it." In those circumstances six months-was not a sufficient time in which to look for another farm. This unfortunate man might wait for six months, and the Estates-Commissioners might not offer him a new farm until the expiration of that period, and then he would have no notice at all. How in that case was he to make arrangements for the transfer of his stock and farming implements? Moreover, the Commissioners might say, "The farm we offer you you say is not the sort of farm you want. But we have offered you the farm and if you do not like it out you go."The right hon. Gentleman had said they might rely upon the Commissioners not to turn a man out at the last minute until he had got his crops in. Might he point out that when all the crops had been got in was a bad time for the new man to come in and a bad time for the old tenant to go out? The right hon. Gentleman had said that the Commissioners were not going to make themselves unpopular by doing anything unreasonable, but that was the sort of argument with which they had been met on every Amendment. Every argument they had advanced had been met with the reply "Trust the Commissioners." If that was a good reply why have this Bill at all? Why not pass a measure simply giving the Commissioners full power to deal with all these questions according to their discretion?

pointed out that the hon. Baronet was allowing himself great latitude; he could not discuss the Bill upon a particular Amendment.

said he was dealing with the argument of the Attorney-General for Ireland who said "Trust the Commissioners," and he was entitled to say that that recommendation was one which no sane House of Commons would adopt. He did not, however, want to pursue the matter further, except to say that they should have in this clause, as in every other, directions laid down to guide the Commissioners. What happened ought not to depend upon what might be after all the fanciful dictates of the Estates Commissioners. In England, which was supposed to be the home of the wicked landlord who did everything that was wrong while the tenants did everything that was right, twelve months notice was given, and, what was of more importance, that notice was usually received at a fixed date.

said he must remind the hon. Baronet that the period of notice which was given in England had already been referred to in the debate many times.

said he was not aware of that, but it was a very strong precedent and he thought was well worth mentioning. He did not know that it had been mentioned before and the Attorney-General did not reply to it. It was, however, a subject which was worthy of consideration.

said that he did not notice that the right hon. Gentleman had done so, but he would not further pursue the topic. He had much pleasure in supporting the Amendment of his hon. friend, and if it was pressed to a division he should vote for it.

remarked that a good deal was said about the English landlords and about their turning people out of hearth and home in a cruel manner, but he challenged the right hon. Gentleman to point out cases in which people were turned out at six months notice.

said that that was not the same thing. If a man was turned out of a farm in England ho could get another farm to his liking in any other part of the country. In this case, however, it did not seem to matter whether or not he liked the farm which was offered him. He challenged the right hon. Gentleman to make this Bill appear analogous to the English practice.

did not think hon. Members knew what was going on in England in the way of turning men out of their holdings and their homes. They were frequently turned out of their homes under the Lands Clauses Acts with only six months notice. He might also ask what notice had been given to tenants removed to make room for important Government buildings such as those in Parliament Street? None whatever. The late Government served notices on all the tenants of the island of Bereh,even and fixed as arbitrators two local resident magistrates. When those gentlemen had the courage to say they did not believe they had jurisdiction, the law officers of the Crown took them by certiorari be-, fore, the King's Bench. That was the action of a Conservative Government. This Government said to the new tenant "If you need it we will give you a salubrious farm in another district, where you will require no police protection, and where you will be in the promised land of the Orangeman"

said the last speech was no doubt of a very humorous character, but this was a very serious matter, as there was something tragic and pathetic about new tenants, many of whom had been on their holdings twenty-four or twenty-five years, being turned out neck and crop and told to go elsewhere without due notice. After all, in the life of every man there were social and business associations, and it was a serious thing by this new form of statute to remove a man from one part of the country to another. [NATIONALIST laughter.] Although this was a laughing matter for hon. Members below the gangway, he did not think they had grasped the fact that the new tenant might have been in his holding for a quarter of a century. The Government knew that there was really no necessity for this Bill. They were acting in a most harsh, unjust, and tyrannical way to men whose only fault was that they had paid their rent and had done their duty, in order to favour others who had not.

said that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary had used most uncontrover-tible arguments in favour of accepting this Amendment. He had said that to accept it would be to rob the Act of one-half of its chief vietues. Then the Attorney-General came on the scene at a later stage and informed the Committee that the Estates Commissioners were above reproach and most sagacious men in all respects, and that they would never dream of turning a man out of his farm until the end of the year. They would have to give six months notice and no man could be put out at the end of this year, so that eighteen months must elapse before these men could be reinstated. But the Chief Secretary never intended that eighteen months should elapse before these evicted tenants were reinstated. The right hon. Gentleman refused the Amendment to postpone the operation of the Act for twelve months after its passing. Both the right hon. Gentleman and the Attorney-General adduced totally different arguments, arguments in direct opposition to each other and neither of which would have been accepted by anyone except the present House of Commons. Another thing which the Attorney-General had said was that no matter what notice was given the unsuitability of the date of the notice would be taken into account in fixing the market value of the farm. It could not possibly be taken into account. The Estates Commissioners fixed the value, and they would not know within a couple of months the time when a tenant would be compelled to give up the farm, and those two months might make a considerable difference. There was no suggestion that the Estates Commissioners would revise the value of the farm when the date was decided as to when it should be given up. They would decide that a farm of a new tenant was to be acquired for the purpose of reinstating an evicted tenant, and after the price which they were to pay to the outgoing tenant and the owner of the soil had been fixed, they would give notice to the new tenant. No price, unless it was fixed on a very extravagant outside scale by the Estates Commissioners in nearly every case where the tenancy was determined at unsuitable dates, could result in anything else than the outgoing tenant being a considerable loser. For these reasons he hoped the right hon. Gentleman might yet see that it was unreasonable for him to tie down these men to this short and inadequate notice.

said the hon. Gentleman seemed to think he had discovered some incontrovertible argument, but he himself had been impressed in the directly contrary way. The hon. Member had said that under this Bill it would be impossible to get persons into these holdings until the end of 1908. That was true. The tenants must be served with notice, but the Commissioners could not give notice until they had acquired the untenanted land. The Bill would not be got through until August. Then there would be a month or two to make rules which would bring them to October, and the Commissioners would commence their compulsory proceedings about November. It would be impossible to have the land in their possession before the end of the following May, because the process to obtain it would certainly take six months, and then they might serve their six months notice and be in possession of the new holding by the end of 1908. But the effect of the Amendment would be to delay the matter one year and they would not be in possession until 1909.

said the Committee had been so entertained by the denunciations of the right hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury bench that they were likely to lose sight of the real effect of this Amendment. If this was a case of an ordinary landlord not one could get rid of a present tenant or a future tenant without twelve months notice, but the Estates Commissioners were to be put in the position of being able to get rid of future tenants with six months notice. This was a penal clause against the future tenants. They were to have six months in order to make

Abrahara.William (Cork, N.E.)Chance, Frederick WilliamFlavin, Michael Joseph
Acland, Francis DykeCheetham, John FrederickFlynn, James Christopher
Adkins, W. Ryland D.Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter
Agnew, George WilliamClancy, John JosephFowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Ainsworth, John StirlingClough, WilliamFuller, John Michael F.
Alden, PercyClynes, J. R.Fullerton, Hugh
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Gibb, James (Harrow)
Ambrose, RobertCondon, Thomas JosephGilhooly, James
Astbury, John MeirCooper, G. J.Gill, A. H.
Atherley-Jones, L.Corbett, CH(Sussex, E.Grints'dGladstone.Rt.Hn. Herbert John
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Glendinning, R. G.
Baker, Joseph A.(Finsbury,E.)Cotton, Sir H. J. S.Glover, Thomas
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)Cowan, W. H.Goddard, Daniel Ford
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)Gooch, George Peabody
Barker, JohnCrean, EugeneGrant, Corrie
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)Cremer, Sir William RandalGreenwood, G. (Peterborough)
Barnard, E. B.Crooks, WilliamGreenwood, Hamar (York)
Beauchamp, E.Crossley, William J.Gwynn, Stephen Lucius
Beck, A. CecilCullinan, J.Halpin, J.
Bell, RichardCurran, Peter FrancisHammond, John
Bertram, JuliusDavies, Ellis William (Eifion)Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis
Bethell, SirJH(Essex, Romf'rd)Davies, Timothy (Fulham)Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)
Birrell, Rt. Hn. AugustineDelany, WilliamHart-Davies, T.
Black, Arthur W.Devlin, JosephHarvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)
Boland, JohnDewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)Harwood, George
Boulton, A. C. F.Dickinson,W.H.(St. Pancras,NHaslam, Lewis (Monmouth)
Bowerman, C. W.Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.Haworth, Arthur A.
Bramsdon, T. A.Donelan, Captain A.Hayden, John Patrick
Branch, JamesDuckworth, JamesHazleton, Richard
Brigg, JohnDuffy, William J.Healy, Timothy Michael
Bright, J. A.Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-FurnessHedges, A. Paget
Brooke, StopfordDunn, A. Edward (Camborne)Henry, Charles S.
Buckmaster, Stanley O.Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)
Burke, E. Haviland-Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)Hobart, Sir Robert
Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnElibank, Master ofHobhouse, Charles E. H.
Burnyeat, W. J. D.Erskine, David C.Hogan, Michael
Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasEssex, R. W.Holland, Sir William Henry
Byles, William PollardFaber, G. H. (Boston)Holt, Richard Durning
Cameron, RobertFarrell, James PatrickHope.W.Bateman (Somerset.N
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.Field, WilliamHorniman, Emslie-John
Carr-Gomm, H. W.Findlay, AlexanderHoward, Hon. Geoffrey

up their minds whether they should take a farm which not they themselves had found but somebody else had found for them. Why should, these men be hustled?They were entitled to twelve months notice and he saw no reason why the notice should be cut down to six months. In fact, if the Committee adopted the principle the hon. Member for North Louth had suggested, instead of getting the new tenants out of their holdings in three months it would take three years. The proposal of the Amendment was that a man should have twelve months' notice to give him time to look about him to see if the farm would suit him. Six months was a very short time to find out whether the farm was suitable.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 291; Noes, 69. (Division List No. 310.)

Hudson, Walter |Nicholson.Charles N.(Donc'st'rSileock, Thomas Ball
Jackson, R. S.Nolan, JosephSloan, Thomas Henry
Jacoby, Sir James AlfredNorton, Capt. Cecil WilliamSnowden, P.
Jones, Leif (Appleby) O'Brien,Kendal (TipperaryMidSoames, Arthur Wellesley
Jones,William(CarnarvonshireO'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)Soares, Ernest J.
Jowett, F. W.O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)Spicer, Sir Albert
Joyce, MichaelO'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)Stanley,Hn. A.Lyulph (Chesh.)
Kearley, Hudson E.O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)Steadman.W. C'.
Kekewich, Sir GeorgeO'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)Stewart, Halley (Greenoek)
Kelley, George D.O'Grady, J.Strachey, Sir Edward
Kennedy, Vincent PaulO'Kelly,James (Roscommon,NStraus, B. S. (Mile End)
Kilbride, DenisO'Malley, WilliamStuart, James (Sunderland)
King, Alfred John (Knutsford)O'Shaughnessy, P. J.Sutherland, J. E.
Laidlaw, RobertO'Shee, James JohnTaylor, John W. (Durham)
Lambert, GeorgeParker, James (Halifax)Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Lamont, NormanPartington, OswaldThomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan,E.)
Lardner, James Carrige RushePearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)Thome, William
Lea,HughCecil (St.Pancras.E.)Pearce, William (Limehouse)Tomkinson, James
Lewis, John HerbertPhilipps.Owen, C. (Pembroke)Torrance, Sir A. M.
Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. DavidPickersgill, Edward HareToulmin, George
Lundon, W.Pirie, Duncan V.Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Lupton, ArnoldPower, Patrick JosephVerney, F. W.
Luttrell, Hugh FownesPrice, C. E. (Edinburgh,CentralWalsh, Stephen
Lynch, H. B.Price.Robert John(Norf olk.E.)Walters, John Tudor
Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)Pullar, Sir RobertWalton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Macdonald,J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs)Rainy, A. RollandWalton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Mackarness, Frederic C.Raphael, Herbert H.Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)
Maclean, DonaldRea, Russell (Gloucester)Wardle, George J.
Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro*Wason,RtHnE. (Clackmannan
MacNeill, John Gordon SwiftRedmond, John E. (Waterford)Wason,JohnCathcart (Orkney)
Macpherson, J. T.Redmond, William (Clare)Waterlow, D. S.
MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S.Rees, J. D.Watt, Henry A.
MacVeigh,Charles (Donegal, E.Rendall, AthelstanWedgwood, Josiah C.
M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. ReginaldRenton, Major LeslieWeir, James Galloway
M'Killop.W.Richards, T.F.(Wolverhampt'nWhite, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)Richardson, A.White, Luke (York, E.R.)
M'Micking, Major G.Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Maddison, FrederickRobertson,Rt.Hn.E. (Dundee)Whitehead, Rowland
Mallet, Charles E.Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
Manfield, Harry (Northants)Robinson, S.Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Mansfield,H.Rendall (Lincoln)Robson, Sir William SnowdonWiles, Thomas
Marks, G.Croydon (Launceston)Roche, John (Galway, East)Wilkie, Alexander
Massie, J.Roe, Sir ThomasWilliams, J. (Glamorgan)
Meagher, MichaelRogers, F. E. NewmanWills, Arthur Walters
Meehan, Patrick A.Runciman, WalterWilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Menzies, WalterRussell, T. W.Wilson, J.W. (Woreestersh. N.)
Molteno, Percy AlportRutherford, V. H. (Brentford)Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Money, L. G. ChiozzaSamuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Mooney, J. J.Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)Winfrey, R.
Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)Scott, A.H.(Ashton under LyneWood, T. M'Kinnon
Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)Sears, J. E.Young, Samuel
Morrell, PhilipSeaverns, J. H.Yoxall, James Henry
Morton, Alpheus CleophasShackleton, David James
Murnaghan, GeorgeShaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)Tellers fob the Ayes—Mr.
Murphy, JohnShaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Myer, HoratioSheehan, Daniel DanielPease.
Nannetti, Joseph P.Sherwell, Arthur James
Napier, T. B.Shipman, Dr. John G.
Acland-Hood.Rt.HnSirAlex F.Brotherton, Edward AllenDalrymplr, Viscount
Anson, Sir William ReynellBull, Sir William JamesDu Cros, Harvey
Arkwright,John StanhopeCampbell, Rt, Hon. J. H. M.Duncan, Robt. (Lanark,Govan
Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt. Hn SirHCarlile, E. HildredFaber, George Denison (York)
Balcarres, LordCavendish,Rt.Hn.Victor C. W.Fardell.SirT. George
Baldwin, AlfredCecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)Fletcher. J. S.
Banbury, Sir Frederick George.Cecil, Lord John P. Joieey-Forster, Henry William
Baring, Capt.Hn.G (WinchesterChamberlain,RtHnJ.A. (WoreHarris, Frederick Leverton
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry,N.)Chaplin, Rt. Hon. HenryHarrison-Broadley, H. B.
Beckett, Hon. GervaseCochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)
Bowles, G. StewartCorbett, T. L. (Down, North)Hornby, Sir William Henry
Boyle, Sir EdwardCourthope, G. LoydHunt, Rowland

Kennaway.Rt.Hn.Sir John H.Percy, EarlWalrond, Hon. Lionel
Kenyon-Slaney,Rt. Hn.Col.W.Powell, Sir Francis SharpWards, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)
King.SirHenry Seymour (Hull)Randles, Sir John ScurrahWilliams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.Ratcliff, Major R. F.Wilson,A.Stanley (York,E.R.)
Liddell, HenryRemnant, James FarquharsonWolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R.Ronaldshay, Earl ofWortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Long, Rt.Hn.Walter(Dublin.S.Smith,F.E. (Liverpool, WaltonWyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Lonsdale, John BrownleeStarky,.John R.
Lowe, Sir Francis WilliamStone, Sir BenjaminTellers for the Noes—Mr.
Marks, H. H. (Kent)Thomson, W. Mitchell-(LanarkCharles Craig and Mr.
Moore, WilliamThornton, Percy M.Ashley.
O'Neill, Hon. Robert TorrensTuke, Sir John Batty
Parkes, EbenezerValentia, Viscount

moved an Amendment providing that the Commissioners' notice to a new tenant should have the effect of determining his tenancy as from the date mentioned in the notice not being less than six months from the "gale day next after the service of such notice." His object, he said, was that the notice to quit should expire on gale day, and the adoption of the Amendment would be in the interests of the Commissioners themselves, and would suit the arrangements of the tenants. The gale term was from the 1st May to 12th November, and that old custom was still kept up in some parts of the country. If liberty were given to serve six months notice in the middle of the wrong month, if he might so speak, to end in the middle of the wrong month, rent was being paid all the time by the tenants, and that would lead to the necessity in every case of apportioning the rent, a very troublesome matter; whereas, if the eviction took place on gale day, there would be no question of apportioning the rent, for it was the proper time for settlements, the tenants being in the habit of paying rent on gale day. There was really no comparison between gale day and any other day in regard to the convenience of the tenant, which he thought the Committee ought to consider to some extent. This point also affected the labourers. The farms, a good many of them, were large and the labourers upon them were engaged from the 1st May and were bound to serve for six months. Therefore, it was for the convenience of the labourers as well as the tenants that the notice should be effective on the last gale day of the year. He thought that would be in the interests of the speedy working of the Act; it would save inconvenience, and to a certain extent would be showing consideration to the new tenant, though possibly that might be a reason why hon. Members below the gangway would oppose his Amendment. He thought they ought to try to meet the convenience of those tenants, and there was no doubt that, in the circumstances of the case, the notice ought to expire on. gale day. Having regard to the fact that the Committee had already decided on the period of six months definitely, he begged to move his Amendment as "from gale day next."

Amendment proposed—

"In page 3, line 31, to leave out the words ' service thereof,' and insert the words ' gale day next after the service of such notice.' "— (Mr. Moore,)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

said it was provided that the notice to quit should not be less than six months. The Estates Commissioners had to take into consideration all the circumstances, but as a minimum the notice must be six months. This was an emergency measure, and it could not be justified on any other grounds, although on those grounds it could be amply justified. They wanted to deal with this matter as quickly as possible. They were not disposed to lay themselves open to any risks, and they had provided in this clause for ample notice. It might be a longer period if the Estates Commissioners thought it would be desirable, and they had ample latitude to regulate their conduct according to the necessities of the case. He could not bring himself to believe that any single new tenant under the arrangements of this Bill would be treated with harshness, because he would have had ample notice by inspection of his land, there would have been all the proceedings of the Estates Commissioners seeking to acquire the title of the land, and there was not the faintest reason to suppose that he would be taken unawares. The new tenant would be offered a new farm; he would have time to make himself acquainted with it, and if he did not want it he need not take it. If he refused the offer he would be given compensation. The hardship in the case consisted in his being required to give up his farm, just as there was a hardship in a man being made to turn out of his ancestral hall. Some hon. Members thought there was some hardship in a tenant giving up his land to a

Abraham,William (Cork, N.E.)Cherry, Rt. Hn. R. R.Goddard, Daniel Ford
Acland, Francis DykeClancy, John Joseph Gooch, George Peabody
Adkins, W.Ryland D.Clough, WilliamGrant, Corrie
Agnew, George WilliamClynes, J. R.Grayson, Albert Victor
Ainsworth, John StirlingCollins, Stephen (Lambeth)Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)
Alden. PercyCondon, Thomas JosephGreenwood, Hamar (York)
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)Cooper, G. J.Griffith, Ellis J.
Ambrose, RobertCorbett C.H.(SussexEGrinsteadGwynn, Stephen Lucius
Asquith,Rt.Hn. Herbert HenryCornwall, Sir Edwin A.Halpin, J.
Astbury, John MeirCotton, Sir H. J. S.Hammond, John
Atherley-Jones, L.Cowan, W. H.Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)Cox, HaroldHardy, George A. (Suffolk)
Baker,Joseph A. (Finsbury,E.)Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)Hart-Davies, T.
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)Crean, EugeneHarvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)
Baring.Godfrey (Isle of Wight)Cremer.Sir William RandalHarwood, George
Barker, JohnCrooks, WilliamHaslam, Lewis (Monmouth)
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)Crossley, William J.Haworth, Arthur A.
Barnard, E. B.Cullinan, JHayden, John Patrick
Barran, Rowland HirstCurran, Peter FrancisHazleton, Richard
Beauchamp, E.Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)Healy, Timothy Michael
Beck, A. CecilDavies, Timothy (Fulham)Hedges, A. Paget
Bell, RichardDelany, WilliamHenderson, J.M.(Aberdeen,W.)
Bellairs, CarlyonDevlin, JosephHenry, Charles S.
Bertram, JuliusDewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)Herbert,T.Arnold (Wycombe)
Bethell,SirJH (Essex.RomfordDickinson,W.H.(St.Pancras,N.Hobart, Sir Robert
Birrell, Rt. Hon. AugustineDickson-Poynder. Sir John P.Hobhouse, Charles E. H.
Black, Arthur W.Donelan, Captain A.Hogan, Michael
Boland, JohnDuckworth, JamesHolland, Sir William Henry
Boulton, A. C. F.Duffy, William J.Holt, Richard Durning
Bowerman, C. W.Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness)Hope, W.Bateman(Somerset,N.
Bramsdon, T. A.Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)Horniman, Emslie John
Branch, JamesEdwards, Clement (Denbigh)Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
Brigg, JohnEdwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)Hudson, Walter
Bright, J. A.Elibank, Master ofJackson, R. S.
Brodie, H. C.Erskine, David C.Jacoby, Sir James Alfred
Brooke, StopfordEssex, R. W.Jones, Leif (Appleby)
Buchanan, Thomas RyburnFaber, G. H. (Boston)Jones, William(C'arnarvonshire
Buckmaster, Stanley O.Farrell, James PatrickJowett, F. W.
Burke, E. Haviland-Field, WilliamJoyce, Michael
Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnFindlay, AlexanderKearley, Hudson E.
Burnyeat, W. J. D.Flynn, James ChristopherKekewich, Sir George
Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasFoster, Rt. Hon. Sir WalterKelley, George D.
Byles, William PollardFuller, John Michael F.Kennedy, Vincent Paul
Cameron, RobertFullerton, HughKettle, Thomas Michael
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.Gardner.Col.Alan (Hereford,S.Kilbride, Denis
Carr-Gomm, H. W.Gibb, James (Harrow)King, Alfred John (Knutsford)
Causton, Rt. Hn. RichardKnightGilhooly, JamesLaidlaw, Robert
Chance, Frederick WilliamGill, A. H.Lambert, George
Cheetham, John Frederick,Glendinning, R. G.Lamont, Norman

man who was there before him, but he did not see any hardship in allowing the Court to consider their cases. The Estates Commissioners had full control over them, and they could decide whether it was right and equitable to ask one of these new planters to go out. He felt satisfied that they must act quickly, and instead of adopting dilatory proceedings they must adhere to the principle of the Bill.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 301; Noes, 73. (Division List No. 311.)

Lardner, James Carrige RusheO'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)Snowden, P.
Lea.Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras.E.O'Grady, J.Soames, Arthur Welleslev
Lewis, John HerbertO' Kelly,James(Roscommon,N,Soares, Ernest J.
Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon DavidO'Malley, WilliamSpicer, Sir Albert
Lough, ThomasO'Shanghnessy, P. J.Stanley,Hn.A.Lyulph (Chesh.)
Lundon, W.O'Shee, James JohnSteadman, W. C.
Lupton, ArnoldParker,James (Halifax,Stewart, Halley(Greenock)
Luttrell, Hugh FownesPartington, OswaldStrachey, Sir Edward
Lynch, H. B.Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)Pearce, William (Limehouse)Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Macdonald, J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs)Philipps,Col.Ivor(S'thampton)Sutherland, J. E.
Mackarness, Frederick C.Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Maclean, DonaldPirie, Duncan V.Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Macnamara.Dr. Thomas J.Power, Patrick JosephThomas.Sir A. (Glamorgan.E.)
MacNeill.JohnGordonSwiftPrice, C E.(Edinburgh,Central)Thorne, William
Macpherson, J. T.Price,RobertJohn(Nofolk,E.)Tomkinson, James
MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S.)Radford, G. H.Torrance, Sir A. M..
Mac Veigh,Charles (Donegal,E.)Rainy, A. RollandToulmin, George
M'Callum, JohnM.Raphael, Herbert H.Trevelyan, Charles Philips
M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. ReginaldRea, Russell (Gloucester)Verney, F. W.
M'Killop, W.Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'Walsh, Stephen
M'Laren, Sir C. B.(Leicester)Redmond, John E. (Waterford)Walters, John Tudor
M'Micking, Major G.Redmond, William (Clare)Walton. Sir John L.(Leeds, S.)
Maddison, FrederickRees, J. D.Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Mallet, Charles E.Rendall, AthelstanWard, John (Stoke-upon-Trent
Manfield, Harry (Northants)Renton, Major LeslieWardle, George J.
Mansfeld.H. Rendall (Lincoln)Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n)Wason. Rt Hn E. (Clackmannan
Marks. G.Croydon (Launeeston)Richardson, A.Waterlow, D. S.
Massie, J.Roberts, CharlesH. (Lincoln)Watt, Henry A.
Masterman, C. F. G.Robertson,Rt.Hn.E.(Dundee)Weir, James Galloway
Meaghor, MichaelRobertson, J. M. (Tyneside)White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Meehan, Patrick A.Robinson, S.White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Menzies, WalterRobson, Sir William SnowdonWhite, Patrick (Meath, North)
Molteno, Percy AlportRoche, Augustine (Cork)Whitehead, Rowland
Money, L. G. ChiozzaRoche, John (Galway, East)Whitley.John Henry (Halifax)
Mooney, J. J.Roe, Sir ThomasWhittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)Rogers, F. E. NewmanWiles, Thomas
Morgan,J.Lloyd (Carmarthen)Runciman, WalterWilkie, Alexander
Morley, Rt. Hon. JohnRussell, T. W.Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Morrell, PhilipRutherford, V. H. (Brentford)Wills, Arthur Walters
Morton, Alpheus CleophasSamuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Murnaghan, GeorgeSohwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)Wilson,J.W.(Worcestersh,N.)
Murphy, JohnScott, A.H(Ashton-under-Lyne)Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras.S.)
Myer, HoratioSears, J. E.Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Nannetti, Joseph P.Seaverns, J. H.Winfrey, R.
Napier, T. B.Shackleton, David JamesWood, T. M'Kinnon
Nieholson,CharlesN.(DoneasterShaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)Young, Samuel
Nolan, JosephShaw., Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)Yoxall, James Henry
Norton, Capt.Cecil WilliamSheehan, Daniel Daniel
O'Brien,Kendal(TipperaryMid)Sherwell, Arthur JamesTellers for the Ayes—
O'Brien.Patrick (Kilkenny)Shipman, Dr. John G. Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A
O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)Silcock, Thomas BallPease.
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)Sloan, Thomas Henry
Acland-Hood,RtHnSir Alex. F.Cavendish,Rt.Hn. Victor C.W.Forster, Henry William
Arkwright, John StanhopeCecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)
Ashley, W. W.Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-Gretton, John
Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt.Hn.Sir H.Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)Harris, Frederick Leverton
Balcarres, LordChamberlain.RtHn.J.A.(Worc.Harrison-Broadley, H. B.
Baldwin, AlfredChaplin, Rt. Hon. HenryHill. Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)
Banbury.SirFrederickGeorgeCochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.Hills, J. W.
Baring,Capt. Hn.G.(Wincheste'rCollings,Rt.Hn.J. (BirminghamHornby, Sir William Henry
Barrie,H.T.(Londonderry,N.)Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)Hunt, Rowland
Beckett, Hon. GervaseCourthope, G. LoydKennaway,Rt.Hon. SirJohnH.
Bowles, G. StewartCraig,Charles Curtis(Antrim,S.Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W.
Boyle, Sir EdwardDalrymple, ViscountKing, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)
Brotherton, Edward AllenDu Cros, HarveyLambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.
Bull, Sir William JamesDuncan, Robert (Lanark. GovanLiddell, Henry
Campbell. Rt. Hn. J. H. M.Faber, George Deniaon (York)Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R.
Carlile, E. HildredFardell, Sir T. GeorgeLong, Col. CharlesW.(Evesham

Long,Rt,Hn.Walter(Dublin,S)Smith.F.E. (Liverpool,Walton)Willoughby do Eresby, Lord
Lonsdale, John BrownleeStarkey, John R.Wilson,A.Stanley (York, E.R.)
Lowe, Sir Francis WilliamStone, Sir BenjaminWolff, Gustay Wilhelm
Marks, H. H. (Kent)Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark)Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
O'Neill, Hon. Robert TorrentThornton, Percy M.Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Percy, EarlTuke, Sir John Batty
Powell, Sir Francis SharpValentia, ViscountTellers for the Noes—Mr.
Randies, Sir John ScurrahWalrond, Hon. LionelMoore and Mr. Remnant.
Ratcliff, Major R. F.Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)
Ronaldshay, Earl ofWilliams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

moved an Amendment to provide that where the Estates Commissioners acquired any tenanted land under this Act the notice to quit should be served on the occupier within three years after the land had been acquired. He hoped the Amendment would be accepted by the Government, because he was sure that everyone interested in the question would be glad to have some finality. When the Estates Commissioners had bought an estate, they were to have the right of giving what were described as "new tenants" notice to quit. The Chief Secretary had said that any new tenant would know easily without formal notice whether he had to go or not. It was not too much to ask the Commissioners to decide within three years after they had acquired an estate whether they were going to get rid of a new tenant or not. It was bad enough for a new tenant to be on tenterhook? for three years while the Estates Commissioners were making up their minds what action they would take. This was a perfectly reasonable limitation to put in. If these people were to be turned out, their period of uncertainty—a grave and anxious period for many of them—should not be allowed to extend beyond three years. The Amendment would safeguard them from having to go through an indefinite period of anxiety with the risk of being turned out at some remote time.

Amendment proposed—

"In page 3, line 31, at the end of Sub-section (1) to insert the words, ' Provided that such notice shall be served within three years after the land has been acquired.' "—(MR. Moore.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."'

said he could not see that there was any necessity whatsoever for a limitation of this kind. The Estates Commissioners knew the gravity of the circumstances of the case; they fully recognised that a disagreeable business was being put upon them, and their only desire would be to get rid of it as speedily as possible. Hon. Members opposite had stated an imaginary hardship that would be imposed on the new tenants. The tenants were represented. He was perpectly certain that if they were only made acquainted with the terms of the measure most of them would think that they were afforded good opportunities for making beneficial use of their holdings; they could have new farms if they wanted them, or full compensation if they preferred to go out, in which case they would, at all events, get money to try their luck elsewhere. He did not admit that any hardship was being imposed on them, or that they were in any way being interfered with in the ordinary course of the culture of their land. Nobody could form any estimate as to how many new tenants would be served with notices. That would depend on a variety of circumstances, and it might be found that the number of cases in which notices would be given were comparatively few.

said the Chief Secretary took a remarkable view of the new tenants. He seemed to think the new tenants were different in their tastes and inclinations from all the other agricultural tenants in Ireland. He, himself, did not think that opinion was well-founded. It might be that some of them answered the description which the Chief Secretary and the Attorney-General had given, but he thought the rest of them did not differ from the other agricultural tenants in their liking for home or in their knowledge of business. The Chief Secretary had repudiated any suggestion of that kind, and time would show who was right. He thought the right hon. Gentleman was lumping them together in one class, whereas he would find that there were two quite different sets of thorn, and that in all probability the majority would not take the view which he and the Attorney-General took.

The right hon. Gentleman must not assume that notice will be given to every new tenant.

said he was not assuming that. He did not suppose that the land every new tenant was occupying would be required for the purposes of this Bill when other land could be used. He was attributing to the Estates Commissioners no mala fides in the performance of their disagreeable task. The Chief Secretary had stated that the Estates Commissioners did not wish this task put upon them. He could well believe that, and it was a most unfortunate thing that the Government had decided to do so. They had enough work to do in the carrying out of the Act of 1903. The duty of extreme difficulty which was now to be cast upon them was to be made more difficult by the refusal of the Government to put in the statute what they had frequently put in their speeches, namely, that the Bill was intended for a temporary purpose which was to be brought to a conclusion within a reasonable time. The Government had again and again declared that the Bill was intended to apply only to a limited number of persons and to operate only for a limited time. The Chief Secretary believed that there would not be a considerable amount of pressure brought to bear on the Estates Commissioners to deal with more than 2,000 cases. When he and his friends on that side of the House talked of pressure they did not mean illegitimate pressure, or pressure which would be used in an improper way. What they meant was perfectly legitimate pressure by those who wished to be regarded as evicted tenants. If a reasonable time-limit was stated in the Bill, all who brought their cases before the Estates Commissioners would know that, unless their claims were satisfied within that time, there were insuperable reasons against the claims, or that there had been blameworthy delay on their part in making the claims. He could not understand why, in view of their protestations that the Bill was intended for only a limited purpose, the Government did not accept the Amendment which would give effect to their own words. The Chief Secretary had said that they on the Opposition side of the House talked as if all the sitting tenants were going to be displaced. They did not say that, but they thought that when this Bill became law the new tenant who had spent time and labour on his farm would believe that there was a good prospect of his displacement. And with all these conditions before him there would be unsettlement in his mind, which would lead him not to take the same interest in his holding. The Amendment seemed to be most reasonable, and carried out what the Government had said was their desire. He could not believe that either the Chief Secretary or the Attorney-General had seriously considered what they were saying when they alleged that to displace a man from his holding, if he were doing well, would be no hardship provided he was paid for it. The foundation of all the trouble in Ireland was the sentiment which attached the peasants and small farmers to their holdings. And why were they restoring the evicted tenants now? It was because the Government said that the men who had been evicted for twenty-three or twenty-four years from their holding for nonpayment of rent still retained that sentiment. But did not the same sentiment exist among the men who had been on these farms for twenty-three or twenty-four years and in some cases twenty-eight years and who had made these holdings a success? The majority of them were not bogus tenants who had taken no interest in their holdings nor tried to develop them and make the best of them. Many of them were successful agriculturists; and unless some such limit as was suggested were put into the Bill, a great injury would be done to the tenants owing to the feeling of insecurity. To do this injustice in order to restore evicted tenants could not be justified.

said he was sorry that the Chief Secretary had refused to accept the limit as proposed. New tenants should know for how long the sword was to be suspended over their heads. He quite differed from the view expressed by the Government that these tenants were going to have a good thing done to them. The vast majority of them were really first class agriculturist—men who were not afraid to take their courage in both hands and to take these farms when many of them were left derelict, not through anything that the landlord had done, but because of the action of a certain body to which he would not further refer. These men had many of them come to these holdings twenty years ago, and had been successful on them as they had been in other parts of Ireland. They had shown by the improvements they had effected that they knew their business. They were a credit to the district in which they lived, even though the Attorney-General for Ireland had called them centres of disturbance. Under the operation of the Bill they were to have this unkind reward for all they had done. It would not make for the peace of the districts or for good husbandry for these agriculturists to have this unkind fate hanging over them without some time limit. Money compensation would not compensate them for the summary dismissal that was to be their fate. It was in the interests of the peace of the districts and only fair to the tenants that some such time limit as was now proposed should be inserted in the Bill. If three years were too short let the Chief Secretary suggest some reasonable time. If the matter were as urgent as the Government made out, such a limit would help matters.

said that one of the ideas most eloquently expounded by the opponents of the Bill was that there should be no priority given to the evicted tenants in cases of restoration, but the effect of the Amendment before the Committee would compel the Estates Commissioners to give priority to the new tenants. After such inconsistency he hoped the Government had no intention of giving way.

pointed out that the ten or twelve eminently reasonable Amendments which had been submitted Unionist Members had all been ruthlessly brushed aside as though they were unreasonable and absurd. The Chief Secretary had said that not many sitting tenants would be asked to leave their holdings, but he and his friends knew quite well that the greatest effort would be made by Nationalist Members, who had great influence in Ireland.

said that giants were rarely conscious of their strength; and that influence would be used to get every one of these new tenants put out of his farm and the original occupant, or his descendant, reinstated. The United Irish League would be sure to exert its influence in this matter, and the tenant would be constantly apprehensive that he might be the next to be turned out; but yet the Government declared that these men had nothing to complain of, and that their lot was a perfectly happy one. In many ways the uncertainty would be a hardship to the tenant. There was the question of schooling for the children and so on, and all these things would be kept hanging over the heads of these unfortunate people, while the only excuse given was that the measure was urgent. The right hon. Gentleman's idea seemed to be that the whole business should be carried through within four or five years. But he did not see why he should object to three years as the period to be fixed. Surely it was not too much to ask the Commissioners to say within three years whether a man should be turned out or not. The Bill was coming into operation within two months and it seemed to him that three years was more than a reasonable time to allow for this purpose. Moreover, to refuse to put a limit upon the time within which the preliminary notices should be served was to deprive these men of what hon. Members below the gangway had been agitating for for a long time, namely, fixity of tenure. They would be kept in a state of suspense with this sword of Damocles hanging over their heads for a very long period. The Chief Secretary apparently had a fixed determination not to accept any Amendment of any sort or kind from that side of the House. [MINISTERIAL cries of "Oh!"] Well, that was the only conclusion they could come to after the discussion of the last ten or twelve Amendments which the right hon. Gentleman himself had admitted to be reasonable. He thought it was an unprecedented state of affairs that the Bill upon which they had been engaged for three days should go forward without a single word of Amendment.

said he must remind the hon. Member that his remarks were not germane to the Amendment before the Committee.

said that the proceedings had become a farce. It was insulting that they should argue there clay after day and hour after hour, and the Attorney-General for Ireland or the Chief Secretary budge not a single inch to meet them in any way. He repeated that the present state of affairs came perilously near to insult, although he knew that the Chief Secretary did not think it a serious thing to insult a small minority.

said he had heard many expressions from the right hon. Gentleman which he regarded as insults, although the right hon. Gentleman's idea of insult and his might not agree.

said he thought that there might be some hon. Members on the opposite side of the House who would listen to the appeals which were made from the Opposition side that a limitation should be put upon the operations under the Bill, so that men should not be left in a state of uncertainty. The right hon. Gentleman had told them that there was urgsncy in the matter. The Amendment would secure that urgency would be recognised, because the Commissioners would know that they had only three years in which to make up their minds, and that they would have to carry out the provisions of the Bill in that time. Therefore, so far from hindering the Bill from coming into operation and destroying the urgency of its character the Amendment would go in that direction. It was well to have unpleasant things over as speedily as possible, and therefore he supported the Amendment.

who appealed to the Chief Secretary to give them something in the nature of a concession, considered that the Amendment was a reasonable one. He was sure that the Chief Secretary would not think that they wanted to obstruct, but he thought they ought to be met in some manner. The hon. Member was proceeding to refer to some of the details of the Bill when

said that the Amendment was a most fair and reasonable one. It simply provided that men who had been living on their holdings for a quarter of a century and over, should not have this sword of Damocles suspended over them. He hoped the Government would come to a just decision in the matter and accept the Amendment. The Bill was one which might be worthy of the Empress of China, but it certainly was not worthy of the House of Commons. If hon. Members had listened at all to the arguments of the right hon. Member for South Dublin, they must have seen that the suspense which hung over the heads of these men must tend to bad farming. He would not repeat the arguments of sentiment that had been used, but he certainly thought that some of the sentiment should be kept for those who stood in closer relation to these farms than the evicted tenants; for those whose families had been born on these farms, who had known no other home, and whose associations, social and business, were wholly gathered round them.

said it was exceeding difficult to impress hon. Members opposite with any of the Amendments which were proposed from the Opposition side of the House. If they proposed to extend the scope of the Bill, they were told it was a question of urgency, and now when in the interest of urgency they proposed a limit of time in which these compulsory powers were to come to an end as regarded the new tenants it was rejected. Such limitations were universal in Acts of Parliament. Under the Lands Clauses Acts a period was fixed. Under every special Act he had known or read which incorporated the Lands Clauses Acts, the time was limited; yet in this matter, which was so urgent that it would not admit of the extension of a day when they asked that the fate of the new tenant should be known in three years, the right hon. Gentleman was no longer a middle-aged man in a hurry, but a disappointed politician. The right hon. Gentleman had said that the Committee was not to assume that notice would be given to every one of these new tenants, and he had stated that he would not like to see, nor did he believe that there ought to be, any interference with those new tenants who were to be deemed ordinary farmers. If that was his view why did he not put it in his Bill? Why did he not give these men the knowledge that if they were spared for three years they would not be interfered with at all? Three years was long enough to keep them in suspense. Did he not know what was going on in Ireland? Many of these men were bonafde hard-working farmers, and they had been the victims of intimidation for a long period. What opportunities for the intimidation of the tenants of these farms was not the right hon. Gentleman giving, if he enabled the fear of being expropriated from their holdings to hang over their heads for the rest of their lives. There was no limit whatever in the Bill. He could have understood it if the right hon. Gentleman had put in a limit of five years. He had said that if compulsory powers were not taken it would take five years to settle the question. Therefore it should take less with compulsory powers. Yet when they asked for a limit of three years the Chief Secretary would not listen to it, because the request camp, from his opponents. The right hon. Gentleman was absolutely sincere when he stated that his belief was that the Estates Commissioners would not desire to disturb many of these new tenants who were bone fide agriculturists. But the hon. Member for West Waterford stated yesterday most distinctly that the impression left in the minds of the Irish people, was that the Government intended by these means to expropriate every one of these new tenants.

remarked that what he said was that the impression left on the minds of the people of Ireland and upon the minds of himself and some of his colleagues was that the Estates Commissioners were to have the discretion to expropriate any tenants they desired.

accepted the hon. Gentleman's statement of what he intended to convey, but his own distinct impression from what the hon. Member said yesterday was that the result would be that the powers of this Bill would be applied to every new tenant without distinction. However, the Attorney-General had left very little doubt about his view of the subject. He had said that one of the great benefits of the Bill would be that they would be able to get rid of the new tenants and thus save the expense of protecting them; that they were centres of disturbance. But if it was not the intention to expropriate the whole of these new tenants why was not some indication to be found on the face of the Bill? Was it fair play or justice or anything approaching it that these men should for the rest of their lives be left under a sentence which might at any time as the result of pressure brought to bear on them or on the Estates Commissioners turn them out of their holdings? Supposing a man was not required to turn out: according to the right hon. and learned Gentleman the people of the district knew that if they interfered with him he would become a centre of disturbance and be got rid of. Although they had not interfered with him before, when this Bill was passed they would do so, and the Government would be placed in the dilemma that they would have either to protect him or to expropriate him. Although he did not for a moment doubt the assurances of the Chief Secretary, he must still ask why he did not provide for this in his Bill'? He would like to remind the right hon. Gentleman that while he objected to fetter the discretion of the Estates Commissioners in this way he had fettered their discretion in the case of landowners in a number of ways in Section 6. But so far as these tenants, whose lot had not been the happiest, were concerned and who had carried on their business with great difficulty, the right hon. Gentleman proposed to put upon them an extra burden and expose them to an extra trial for the rest of their lives by putting into the hands of their neighbours a power which could be forged into a weapon for their expropriation and expulsion. The right hon. Gentleman believed the objects of the Bill would be accomplished in three years, because he had said he could not afford to wait five years; then why in the name of justice would he not accept this Amendment which enabled Parliament to say to the new tenant: "If you are not interfered with in the next three years you may know that you are safe."

said that hon. Members above the gangway had shown themselves to be such splendid spendthrifts of the public time that no one would suppose that the guillotine fell at. It was suggested that these compulsory powers should be exercised within the next three years. What happened in regard to the Leasehold Clauses Act of 1877? It was provided that any leaseholder who desired to break his lease should make application within three years. When that Bill was sent down from the House of Lords it enabled the. landlord to break his agreement as well as the tenant within the same period, but the House of Commons insisted, upon giving only the tenant the Bill. In every Expiring Laws Continuance Bill the Conservative Government found it necessary to renew these powers. In 1896, the Conservative Government provided that the right of application to break his lease should be made perpetual for the leaseholder. The argument used was this: Was the landlord to be harrassed every year by applications from his tenants to break his lease; was he never to have peace and quietness in relation to his holding? Two years was to be the limit, and the justice of the case seemed to be such that the Conservative Government ultimately provide I that at any time a tenant might go into Court with an application to break his tenancy. The Bill now before the House proceeded upon the hypothesis that the evicted tenant should be restored to his holding. There were hundreds of cases to be inquired into of a painful character which would take, a considerable time. The Bill could not restore any one of these evicted tenants within eighteen months, and yet they had the calm proposal that in the year 1909, or three years hence, the powers of the Estates Commissioners should lapse. He remembered that in 1881 the late MR. W. H. Smith made an exactly similar proposal to this with regard to the Land Act of that year. He proposed that the Act of 1881 should come to an end in seven years, which, he said, would be amply sufficient to settle the whole of the fair rents and settle the whole land question in Ireland. The same gentleman who made that proposal was himself afterwards a party to a far more drastic and peremptory, and from his point of view, far more harsh proposal, than MR. Gladstone had submitted. Not only had seven years elapsed, but three times seven years, and the powers which it was then declared would be entirely exhausted in seven years, were still unexpired, unexhausted, and absolutely necessary. Formerly coercion, which was declared to be abhorrent, was only passed for three years. Who made coercion perpetual in Ireland? Was not the Party that made coercion applicable at any time, taking away the liberties of the whole of the people of Ireland, acting as a perpetual menace to the Irish people, the very Party who were saying that this beneficent measure of assessment was to be put an end to at the close of three years? It was an absurd position that hon. Gentlemen were taking up. At one time they declared that the planters were bogus tenants, so immersed in debt that it was necessary to give notice to their creditors. Two hours had been occupied in discussing the position of the planters, men who had been brought from the north and other parts of Ireland, accompanied by armed policemen, and who were to cultivate that land not with ploughs but with blunderbusses. But they all knew the object of this prolonged discussion. They were on Clause 3, and the real clause of interest to hon. Gentlemen above the gangway was Clause 12, which dealt with the tenure of office of the Estates Commissioners, and upon that they would have some chance of discussing the letter of MR. Bailey to a certain gentleman, who should be nameless, and the letter of that gentleman to MR. Bailey. That was what they really wanted to come to, but Gentlemen above the gangway, before they approached that ChesterfieldIan correspondence, would take up time in discussing three years, and five years, and the indentures of the planters' children. He begged of them, as at all events the shears must close at half-past ten, to approach some

Acland-Hood.RtHn.SirAlex. F.Dalrymple, ViscountO'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Anson, Sir William ReynellDu Cros, HarveyParkes, Ebenezer
Arkwright, John StanhopeDuncan,Robert (Lanark,GovanPease,HerbertPike(Darlington
Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt,Hon.SirH.Faber, George Denison (York)Percy, Earl
Balcarres, LordFardell, Sir T. GeorgePowell, Sir Francis Sharp
Baldwin, AlfredForster, Henry WilliamRandles, Sir John Scurrah
Balfour,RtHn. A. J.(City Lond.)Gardner, Ernest (Borks, East)Ratcliff, Major R. F.
Banbury, Sir FrederickGeorgeGretton, JohnRemnant, James Farquharson
Baring,Capt.Hn.G (WinchesterHarris, Frederick LevertonRobert, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Barrie, H.T. (Londonderry, N.)Hay, Hon. Claude GeorgeRonaldshay, Earl of
Beckett, Hon. GervaseHervey,F.W.F.(BuryS.Edm'dsStone, Sir Benjamin
Bowles, G. StewartHill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)Thomson,W. Mitchell-(Lanark)
Burdett-Coutts, W.Houston, Robert PatersonThornton, Percy M.
Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.Hunt, RowlandTuke, Sir John Batty
Carlile, E. HildredKenyon-Slaney.Rt. Hon. Col. W.Valentia, Viscount
Cavendish, Rt. Hon. VictorC. W.King,Sir HenrySeymour (Hull)Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)Lambton, Hon. Frederick Win.Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-Lane-Fox, G. R.Wilson,A.Stanley (York, E.R.)
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)Liddell, HenryWolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Chamberlain,RtHn.J.A.(Worc.Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R.Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. HenryLong. Col. Charles W.(E Yesham
Coates.E. Feetham (Lewisham)Lonsdale, John BrownleeTellers for the Ayes—
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.Lowe, Sir Francis WilliamMr. Ashley and Mr. Charles
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)Meysey-Thompson, E. C.Craig.
Craik, Sir HenryMoore, William
Abraham, William (Cork.N.E.Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)
Adkins, W. Ryland D.Ambrose, RobertBaker Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)
Agnew George WilliamAsquith, Rt.Hn.HerbertHenryBalfour, Robert (Lanark)
Alden, Percy,Astbury, John MeirBaring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight]

question of public interest. Let them approach at any rate the question of the tenure of the sub-commissioners. His last reason for opposing the Amendment was this. Let them give the planters and crofters a chance. In three years time a Conservative Government might be back in office. Why was all this work to be done against planters under a Liberal Government? If it was to be limited to three years they would hurry up, and the whole work of expropriation and spoliation and hardship would be done under the regime of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. But if the time was extended in the way the Bill proposed so that they might be six or seven years over the work, the hon. and learned Gentleman might probably be Chief Secretary for Ireland with MR. Bailey and Mr. Finucane under his thumb, and then, if the time remained as the Bill proposed, would be the paradise of the land grabbers under the regime of a Conservative administration.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Aves, 70; Noes, 292. (Division List No. 312.)

Barker, JohnFullerton, HughMacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)Gardner, Col. Alan(Hereford,S.)Macpherson, J. T.
Barran, Rowland HirstGilhooly, JamesMacVeagh. Jeremiah (Down,S.)
Beauchamp, E.Gill, A. H.MacVeigh,Charles (Donegal. E.)
Beck, A. CecilGladstone, Rt Hn Herbert JohnM'Callum, John M.
Bell, RichardGlendinning, R. G.M'Kean, John
Bellairs, CarlyonGoddard, Daniel FordM'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald
Bertram, JuliusGooch, George PeabodyM'Killop, W.
Bethell, Sir J.H.(Essex, Romf'rdGrant, CorrieM'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)
Birrell, Rt. Hon. AugustineGrayson, Albert VictorM'Micking, Major G.
Black, Arthur W.Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)Maddison, Frederick
Bcland, JohnGrey, Rt. Hon. Sir EdwardMallet, Charles E.
Boulton, A. C. F.Griffith, Ellis J.Manfield, Harry (Northants)
Bowerman, C. W.Gwynn, Stephen LuciusMansfield,H.Rendall (Lincoln)
Branch, JamesHalpin, J.Marks, G.Croydon(Launceston)
Brigg, JohnHammond, JohnMassie, J.
Bright, J. A.Harcourt, Rt. Hon. LewisMasterman, C. F. G.
Buchanan, Thomas RyburnHardy, George A. (Suffolk)Meagher, Michael
Buckmaster, Stanley O.Hart-Davies. T.Meehan, Patrick A.
Burke, E. Haviland-Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)Menzies, Walter
Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnHaslam, Lewis (Monmouth)Molteno, Percy Alport
Burnyeat, W. J. D.Haworth, Arthur A.Montgomery, H. G.
Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasHayden, John PatrickMooney, J. J.
Byles, William PollardHazleton, Richard Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)
Cameron, RobertHealy, Timothy MichaelMorgan,J.Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Campbell-Bannerrman, Sir H.Helme, Norval WatsonMorrell, Philip
Carr-Gomm, H. W.Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen,W.)Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Causton. Rt. Hn. RichardKnightHenry, Charles S.Murnaghan, George
Chance, Frederick WilliamHerbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)Murphy, John
Cheetham, Jolin FrederickHobart, Sir RobertMyer, Horatio
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.Hobhouse, Charles E. H.Nannetti, Joseph P.
Clancy, John JosephHogan, MichaelNapier, T. B.
Clough, WilliamHolland, Sir William HenryNewnes, F. (Notts., Bassetlaw)
Clynes, J. E.Holt, Richard DurningNicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Hope, W.Bateman(Somerset,N)Nolan, Joseph
Condon, Thomas JosephHorniman, Emslie JohnNorton, Capt. Cecil William
Corbett, C.H.(Sussex,E.Grinst'dHoward, Hon. GeoffreyNussey, Thomas Willans
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Hudson, WalterO'Brien,Kendal(TipperaryMid)
Cotton, Sir H. J. S.Hyde, ClarendonO'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Cowan, W. H.Isaacs, Rufus DanielO'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Cox, HaroldJackson, R. S.O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)Jacoby, Sir James AlfredO'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Crean, EugeneJones, Leif (Appleby)O'Kelly,James (Roscommon, N
Crcmer, Sir William RandalJones, William(Carnarvonsh'reO'Malley, William
Crombie, John WilliamJowett, F. W.O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Crooks, WilliamJoyce, MichaelO'Shee, James John
Crossley, William J.Kearley, Hudson E.Parker, James (Halifax.)
Cullinan, J.Kekewich, Sir GeorgePartington, Oswald
Curran, Peter FrancisKelley, George D.Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)
Dalmeny, LordKennedy, Vincent PaulPearee, William (Limehouse)
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)Kettle, Thomas MichaelPhilipps,Col.Ivor (S'thampton)
Delany, WilliamKilbride, DenisPirie, Duncan V.
Devlin, JosephKing, Alfred John (Knutsford)Power, Patrick Joseph
Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)Laidlaw, RobertPrice,C.E.(Edinburgh,Central)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir CharlesLambert, GeorgePrice,RobertJohn(Norfolk.E.)
Dobson, Thomas W.Lamont, NormanRadford, G. H.
Donelan, Captain A.Lardner, James Carrige RusheRainy, A. Rolland
Duckworth, JamesLaw, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)Raphael, Herbert H.
Duffy, William J.Layland-Barratt, FraneisRea, Russell (Gloucester)
Duncan,C (Barrow-in-Furness)Lea, Hugh Cecil (St.Pancras,E.Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)Levy, Sir MauriceRedmond, William (Clare)
Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)Lewis, John HerbertRendall, Athelstan
Elibank, Master ofLloyd-George, Rt. Hon. DavidRichards,T.F.(Wolverhampton
Eve, Harry TrelawneyLough, ThomasRichardson, A.
Faber, G. H.)Boston)Lundon, W.Rickett, J. Compton
Farrell, James PatrickLupton, ArnoldRoberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Ferens, T. R.Luttrell, Hugh FownesRobertson.Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee)
Field, WilliamLynch, H. B.Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Fiennes, Hon. EustaceMacdonald, J. R. (Leicester)Robinson, S.
Findlay, AlexanderMacdonald,J.M.(Falkirk B'ghsRobson, Sir William Snowdon
Flavin, Michael JosephMackam;ss,Frederic C.Roehe, Augustine (Cork)
Flynn, James ChristopherMaclean, DonaldRoehe, John (Galway, East)
Fuller, John Michael F.Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.Roe, Sir Thomas

Rogers, F. E. NewmanStewart, Halley (Greenock)White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Runcimin, WalterStrachey, Sir EdwardWhite, Luke (York, E.R.)
Russell, T. W.Straus, B. S. (Mile End)White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)Stuart, James (Sunderland)Whitley.John Henry (Halifax)
Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)Sutherland, J. E.Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Scott, A. H.(AshtonunderLyneTaylor, John W. (Durham)Wiles, Thomas
Sears, J. E.Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)Wilkie, Alexander
Seaverns, J. H.Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E)Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Shackleton, David JamesTomkinson, JamesWills, Arthur Walters
Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)Torrance, Sir A. M.Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)Toulmin, GeorgeWilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Sheehan, Daniel DanielTrevelyan, Charles PhilipsWilson, J.W.WorcestershircN.)
Sherwell, Arthur JamesVerney, F. W.Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Shipman, Dr. John G.Walsh, StephenWilson, W. T. (Westhoughton
Silcock, Thomas BallWalton.Sir John L. (Leeds,S.)Winfrey, R.
Sloan, Thomas HenryWalton, Joseph (Barnsley)Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Smeaton, Donald MackenzieWard,John (Stoke upon Trent)Young, Samuel
Snowdon, P.Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (ClackmannanYoxall, James Henry
Soares, Ernest J.Wason,JohnCathcart(Orkney)
Spicer, Sir AlbertWaterlow, D. S.TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.Whiteley and Mr. J. A Pease.
Stanley.HnA.Lyulph (Chesh.)Watt, Henry A..
Steadman, W. C.Weir, James Galloway

moved an Amendment providing that the Estates Commissioners should "within three months" from the service of the notice determining the tenancy of a new tenant offer to put him forthwith into possession of another parcel of land. He said he proposed the substitution of the words "within three months, etc.," for the words in the original text, with a view to giving the new tenant sufficient time to go over the new farm offered to him and see whether it would suit him or not. As the Bill stood there was nothing to prevent his having only a week or a fortnight to make up his mind. This proposal would give the tenant three months to make up his mind whether he would take the farm offered to him or accept compensation. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed—

"In page 3, lines 32 and 33, to leave out the words ' on or before the aforesaid date,' and insert the words ' within three months from the service of the aforesaid notice.' "—(Mr. Ashley.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

said he had no objection to the Amendment. Its object was that the new tenant who was going to be provided with a new farm should have a proper opportunity of seeing it in order to decide whether he would prefer to have the farm or refuse it and accept compensation. Although he did not think the words were really necessary it was a proper Amendment to move, and he was perfectly willing to accept it.

Amendment agreed to.

moved an Amendment providing that the parcel of land should be one which, "in the opinion of the said Commissioners," was as suitably provided with buildings and other requirements as the original holding. He proposed the insertion of the words quoted in order to remove ambiguity from the clause, and diminish litigation and disputes. The clause was, to some extent, ambiguous, and he thought it was in the interests of all classes that there should be no ambiguity about it. To secure the expeditious working of the Act the words he had suggested were necessary, and they were intended to confer upon the Estates Commissioners discretionary power. They had in the past had occasion to criticise these gentlemen, but they knew that they had been handicapped by the Conservative Government in carrying out their duties. He thought the words he suggested would commend themselves to the Government. It might be said that the words were unnecessary and redundant, but the matter ought to be made absolutely clear. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed—

"In page 3, line 39, after the word 'which,' to insert the words ' in the opinion of the said Commissioners.' "—(MR. Power.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

said he recognised that the Amendment was in accordance with the spirit of the clause, the object of the Government being to make the Commissioners judges in all these matters, and he was prepared to accept it.

said that for precisely the same reasons which the Attorney-General had given for accepting the Amendment he had decided to oppose it. All through the Bill the Estates Commissioners were made judges in everything, and now the Government were accepting an Amendment which would make them judges as to the

Abraham. William (Cork, N.E.Clancy, John JosephFuller, John Michael F.
Acland, Francis DykeCleland, J. W.Fullerton, Hugh
Adkins, W. Ryland D.Clough WilliamGilhooly, James
Alden, PercyClynes, J. R.Gill, A. H.
Ambrose, RobertCobbold, Felix ThornleyGladstone.Rt.Hn.Herbert John
Asquith,Rt. Hon.HerbertHenryCollins, Stephen (Lambeth)Glendinning, R. G.
Asbury, John MeirCondon, Thomas JosephGoddard, Daniel Foru
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,E.Grinst'dGrant, Corrie
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)Cotton, Sir H. J. S.Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)Cowan, W. H.Griffith, Ellis J.
Barker, JohnCox, HaroldGwynn, Stephen Lucius
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)Cremer, Sir William RandalHalpin, J.
Barran, Rowland HirstCrombie, John WilliamHammond. John
Beauchamp, E.Crooks, WilliamHarcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis
Beck, A. CecilCrossley, William J.Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)
Bell, RichardCullinan, J.Hart-Davies, T.
Bellairs, CarlyonCurran Peter FrancisHaworth. Arthur A.
Bethell.SirJ.H. (Essex.Romf'rdDavies, Ellis William (Eifion)Hayden, John Patrick
Birrell, Rt. Hon. AugustineDelany, WilliamHazleton. Richard
Black, Arthur W.Devlin, JosephHealy, Timothy Michael
Boland, JohnDewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)Helme, Norval Watson
Boulton, A. C. F.Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir CharleaHemmerde, Edward George
Bowerman, C. W.Dobson, Thomas W.Henderson. J.M. (Aberdeen,W.)
Branch, JamesDonelan, Captain A.Henry, Charles S.
Brigg, JohnDuckworth, JamesHerbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)
Bright, J. A.Duffy, William J.Hobart, Sir Robert
Buckmaster, Stanley O.Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-FurnessHobhouse, Charles E. H.
Burke, E. Haviland-Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)Hogan, Michael
Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnElibank, Master ofHolland, Sir William Henry
Burnyeat, W. J. D.Eve, Harry TrelawneyHolt, Richard Dinning
Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasFaber, G. H. (Boston)Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset,N.
Byles, William PollardFarrell, James PatrickHorniman, Emslie John
Cameron, RobertFerens, T. R.Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
Carr-Gomm, H. W.Field, WilliamHudson, Walter
Causton,Rt.Hn.RichardKnightFiennes, Hon. EustaceHyde, Clarendon
Chance, Frederick WilliamFindlay, AlexanderIsaacs, Rufus Daniel
Cheetham, John FrederickFlavin, Michael JosephJackson, R. S.
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. RFlynn, James ChristopherJacoby, Sir James Alfred
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston SFoster, Rt. Hon. Sir WalterJones, William (Carnarvonshire

suitability of the buildings. He wished to express his entire dissent from the principle of making the Commissioners judges in their own cause throughout the Bill.

said they were now beginning to realise the reason why the last Amendment was accepted. There was generally a sort of "deal "I effected in these matters, and the conicession of a reasonable and fair Amendment which had just been made to the Opposition was discounted by the acceptance of the Amendment of the hon. Member below the gangway. They were making the Estates Commissioners absolute dictators in everything.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes. 264; Noes, 57. (Division List No. 313.)

Jowett, F. W.Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)Sloan, Thomas Henry
Joyce, MichaelNicholson,Charles N.(Doncast'rSmeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Kearley, Hudson E.Nolan, JosephSnowden, P.
Kekewich, Sir GeorgeNorton, Capt. Cecil WilliamSoares, Ernest J.
Kelley, George D.O'Brien,Kendal (TipperaryMidSpicer, Sir Albert
Kennedy. Vincent PaulO'Brien, Patrick (Kilkeeny)Stanley,Hn.A. Lyulph(Chesh.)
Kettle, Thomas MichaelO'Connor, T. P. (LiverpoolSteadman, W. C.
Kilbride, DenisO'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)Stewart, Halley (Greenoek)
King, Alfred John (Knutsford)O'Kelly,James(Roscommon,N.Strachey. Sir Edward
Laidlaw, RobertO'Shaughnessy, P. J.Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Lambert, GeorgeO'Shee, James JohnStuart, James (Sunderland)
Lamont, NormanParker, James (Halifax;)Sutherland, J. E.
Lardner, James Carrige RushePartington, OswaldTaylor, Theodore C. (Radeliffe)
Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)Thomas,Sir A. (Glamorgan, E,)
Lea,Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras,E.Pearce, William (Limehouse)Tomkinson, James
Levy. Sir MauricePirie, Duncan V.Torrance, Sir A. M.
Lewis, John HerbertPower, Patrick JosephVerney, F. W.
Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. DavidPrice, C. E. (Edmb'gh,Central)Vivian, Henry
Lough, ThomasPrice.RobertJohn (Norfolk, E.)Walsh, Stephen
Lundon, W.Radford, G. H.Walton. Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Lupton, ArnoldRainy, A. RollandWard, John (Stoke upon Trent
Luttrell, Hugh FownesRaphael, Herbert H.Wardle, George J.
Lynch, H. B.Rea, Russell (Gloucester)Wason,John Cathcart (Orkney)
Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk B'ghsRedmond, John E. (Waterford)Waterlow, D. S.
Maclean, DonaldRedmond, William (Clare)Watt, Henry A.
Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.Rendall, AthelstanWeir, James Galloway
MacNeill, John Gordon SwiftRiehards.T.F. (Wolverhampt'nWhite, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)1
Macpherson, J. T.Richardson, A.White, Luke (York, E.R.)
MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S.Rickett, J. ComptonWhite, Patrick (Meath. North)
MacVeigh,Charles(Donegal, E.)Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)Whitley.John Henry (Halifax;)
M'Callum, John M.Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee)Whittaker. Sir Thomas Palmer
M'Kean, JohnRobertson, J. M. (Tyneside)Wiles, Thomas
M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. ReginaldRobinson, S.Wilkie, Alexander
M'Killop, W.Robson, Sir William SnowdonWilliams, J. (Glamorgan)
Maddison, FrederickRoche, Augustine (Cork)Williamson, A.
Mallet, Charles E.Roche, John (Galway, East)Wills, Arthur Walters
Mankeld, Harry (Northants)Roe, Sir ThomasWilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Marks,G.Croydon (Launceston)Rogers, F. E. NewmanWilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Massie, J.Runciman WalterWilson, J.W. (Worcestersh. N.)
Masterman, C. F. G.Russell. T. W.Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Meagher, MichaelRutherford, V. H. (Brentford)Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Meehan, Patrick A.Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Menzies, WalterScott,A.H. (Ashton under LyneYoung, Samuel
Mooney, J. J.Sears, J. E.Yoxall, James Henry
Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)Shackleton. David James
Morrell. Philip"Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)Tellers for the Ayes, Mr.
Murnaghan. GeorgeSheehan, Daniel DanielWhiteley and Mr. J. A.
Murphy, JohnSherwell, Arthur JamesPease.
Myer, HoratioShipman, Dr. John G.
Nannetti. Joseph P,Silcock, Thomas Ball
Aeland-Hood,RtHn.SirAlex.F.Du Cros, HarveyMeysey-Thompson, E. C.
Arkwright, John StanhopeDuncan,Robert (Lanark.GovanMoore, William
Ashley, W.WFaber, George Denigon (York)Parkes, Ebenezer
Aubrey-Fletcher.Rt.Hon.SirH.Fardell, Sir T. GeorgePease.Herbert Pike(Darlington
Balcarres. Lord Forster, Henry WilliamPowell, Sir Francis Sharp
Baldwin, Alfred Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)Randies, Sir John Scurrah
Balfour.Rt.Hn. A.J.(CityLond.)Gretton, JohnRemnant, James Farquharson
Beckett. Hon. CervaseHarris, Frederick LevertonRoberts, S. (Sheffield,EcclesalI
Bowles, G. StewartHay, Hon. Claude GeorgeStone, Sir Benjamin
Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. Carlile, E. HildredHervey,F.W.F.(BuryS.Edmd'sThornton, Percy M.
Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)Tuke, Sir John Batty
Cavenidsh, Rt.Hon.VictorC.W. Hills, J. W.Valentia, Viscount
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)Houston, Robert PatersonWalrond, Hon. Lionel
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-Hunt, RowlandWilson.A.Stanley (York, E.R.)
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E. Kennaway.Rt.Hon.Sir JohnH.Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W.
Coates. E.Feetham (Lewisham)King,Sir HenrySeymour (Hull)Tellers for the Noes—Mr.
Coehrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.Lane-For;, G. R.Hugh Barrie and Mr. Charles
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)Liddell, HenryCraig.
Craik, Sir HenryLockwood.Rt.Hn. Lt.-Col.A.R.
Dalrymple, ViscountLong,Rt.Hn.Walte'(Dublin,S.)

moved an Amendment to provide that, instead of the Estates Commissioners, the tribunal to award compensation to a new tenant who refused to enter on a parcel of land offered to him by the Commissioners, should be a court of arbitration appointed as provided in the schedule to the Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Act, 1870. He did not consider it was right that two Estates Commissioners, or even the whole three together, should be the only tribunal to decide what compensation should be given to the new tenant. The decision of the Commissioners was to be final, no provision for appeal being contained in the Bill. If the Amendment was not accepted, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would outline some form of appeal from the Estates Commissioners. The Act of 1870 provided—

"If both parties concur a single arbitrator may be appointed.
"If both parties do not concur in the appointment of a single arbitrator, each party on the request of the other party shall appoint an arbitrator.
"If for the space of fourteen days after the service by one party or the other of a request made in writing to appoint an arbitrator, such last mentioned party fails to appoint an arbitrator, (hen upon such failure the party making the request may apply to the Court, and thereupon the dispute shall be decided by the Court in accordance with the provisions of this Act.
"Where more than one arbitrator has been appointed, the arbitrators shall, before they enter upon the matters referred to them, appoint by writing under their hands an umpire to decide on any matters on which they may differ.
"The decision of every umpire on the matters referred to him shall be final."
The proposal in the Amendment had the advantage over the one contained in the Bill that in all probability the arbitrators appointed would be experts who had a first class knowledge of the value of land, and would be able to arrive at a correct conclusion as to the amount of money the new tenant should receive. They would be absouitely impartial. This method of appointing arbitrators was embodied in the Arbitration Act of 1889, and the Lands Clauses Acts, of which one or two clauses were embodied in this Bill. It appeared, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman thought some portions of the Lands Clauses Acts were good. Perhaps he might think that other portions could be introduced in this measure. The Lands Clauses Acts had been in force for sixty years, and had worked satisfactorily.

Amendment proposed—

"In page 4, lines 2 and 3, to leave out the words ' the Estates Commissioners,' and insert the words ' a court of arbitration shall be appointed as in the schedule to The Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Act, 1870, mentioned and.' "—(Mr. Ashley.)

Question, proposed, "That the words | proposed to be left out stand part of the ' clause."

said he was sorry he could not accept the Amendment. The question they had to determine here; was the value of so many acres of Irish land. He quite agreed that that was an important question, and that the people who had to decide it should have some knowledge of the value of Irish land. That knowledge came not by erudition or study or by university degrees, but could be gained only by knowledge of the different localities. Therefore, they had to find a tribunal which would be likely to have possession of that knowledge and experience, and which should at the same time act with some degree of common sense and similarity of judgment. Therefore they had come to the conclusion that it would be impossible to hope to arrive at any determination of the question by adopting the process of arbitration. Of course, if a single arbitrator could be hit upon, that, no doubt, might be a satisfactory solution of the problem. There was something like that provided in the Lands Clauses Act, although it had not been frequently found practicable, and therefore they could not rely upon it. Then there was the case of double arbitration. The probability was that the two arbitrators would differ, though not, materially; they would not look at the figures in the same way; and therefore the umpire was called in. That would involve a great deal of delay and difficulty; on the question of the value of an Irish holding there would be a great variety of opinions, and the Government thought they were entitled to make use of the great knowledge of this subject which the Estates Commissioners had obtained during the last four or five years in different parts of Ireland. The Judges of the Supreme Court were, in his opinion, the last persons to be imported into questions of this sort; he did not think English Judges would ever dream of taking up such cases. His hon. friend had suggested that they should set up machinery under the Irish Land Act to arbitrate on each individual case, and to settle the value of the piece of land affected, rather than hand over the duty to the three Estates Commissioners to deal with the whole of the cases. He hoped he could dissipate the cloud of suspicion with which hon. Gentlemen opposite had veiled the Estates Commissioners. It had been said that this Bill had been drafted by the Estates Commissioners, or a majority of them; and that they had implored that the duties should be placed upon them. He could assure the Committee that the Estates Commissioners had no desire whatever to have those powers thrust upon them, and that they never saw the Bill till after it was drafted, and until they were asked to undertake the heritage imposed upon them. How any three gentlemen could desire that those duties should be imposed upon them he could not see, but the Government knew that the great knowledge which these gentlemen had acquired during the last four or five years as to the value of the land made them a body which would act speedily and without much cost. 80,000 acres of land had to be acquired in Ireland for the purpose of providing accommodation for some 2,000 persons, and it was desirable that that work should be done quickly and fairly.

said that the hon. Gentleman suggested that each side should appoint a man, and the two men, should appoint an umpire. No doubt that was an appeal. There would be a landlord's man and a tenant's man, and a man supposed to be neither a landlord's nor a tenant's man, but an impartial man. The Estates Commissioners were in no sense either landlords' men or tenants' men, and the result would be of no benefit to them. It was nothing to them how much the transaction cost. They were not in the position of the promoters of an undertaking who were anxious to get land in order to run a railway through it, and to get it as cheaply as possible, so that their earning powers should be all the greater.

said that this was an entirely new change. Even under the Labourers Act of last year there were arbitrators appointed.

said that the rural district councils acted quite differently. They were animated by local patriotism, and wanted to see the labourers on the land in order that they might get their votes at the next election, or were perhaps anxious to give their friends a job. The Estates Commissioners, however, had no constituents. They were entitled to the rights of civil servants, whatever those rights might be; and they had no object in getting something for their' friends, and did not expect any reward. If the Estates Commissioners could not fix the value of the land to be acquired he did not know who could, and he did not think it possible for anybody to suggest that any land would under the provisions of this Bill be taken at an unfair price. The Commissioners, who would be charged with very difficult duty, did not desire these powers, which, however, he believed would be discharged without fear or favour. They would not be the purchasers of the land; they would acquire it for a public purpose with the Treasury behind them. They would not benefit by the transaction; they would not be actuated by animosity towards landlords. He repudiated the idea that in this matter the Commissioners could be looked upon as being judges in their own cause, or promoters of an undertaking in which they had a personal interest. On the contrary, in discharging the difficult duty of fixing the value of the land, he took them to be perfectly impartial. Sometimes questions were put before the Estates Commissioners of a most difficult character, but these were not subjects of that kind, and he was sure that the Commissioners would act in regard to them in a way in which substantial justice would be done, whether the landlords thought that they had got as much as they ought to have or whether the tenants were satisfied or not. The Opposition in objecting to the Estates Commissioners seemed to him to be straining at a gnat while it swallowed a camel. The Estates Commissioners had been entrusted for years past with very important duties, and now it was said that they could not be trusted to buy a few thousand acres of land and dispose of them to the evicted tenants. He submitted that this was a small matter having regard to the enormous quantity of land passing through the hands of the Estates Commissioners and the Land Commission, and considering the important responsibilities of those who were entrusted with the preservation of law and order in Ireland. He thought the Estates Commissioners would carry through in a perfectly impartial manner the work which they had been trained to do for the last four or five years. He did not dispute that they were appointed for certain other purposes, but under the circumstances he did not think that they had any alternative but to accept the three Estates Commissioners as the tribunal which should deal with the question of evicted tenants.

observed that yesterday the Chief Secretary said that the right hon. Member for Dublin University had used observations which had filled him with despair, and he now ventured to retort that the right hon. Gentleman's speech filled him with despair. His whole speech showed that the right hon. Gentleman utterly misconceived the objection and the whole attitude of the Opposition in regard to this measure. What they desired to direct the right hon. Gentleman's attention to were the first principles of justice.

said that he was not conscious of having said anything which could offend the hon. Member for North Kerry. He was only asking for justice.

said he understood that that was the case, but it appeared to him to be a most irrelevant observation. As he had said, what he was asking for was justice, and if the Government were to appoint any kind of tribunal the first essential was that it should be impartial. [MR. BIRRELL: "Hear, hear"] To be impartial this tribunal must fulfil two conditions—it should decide solely on the evidence brought before it and it must command the confidence of those who appealed to it. They must have men who came to the consideration of the questions submitted to them without any preconceived opinion. If men came to the decision of a matter with a preconceived opinion, they were incapable of dealing with it impartially. He knew nothing about the Estates Commissioners, he did not know whether they were good, bad or indifferent. They might be "angels of light "or they might be the contrary so "far as he was concerned, but assuming that they were like other people, a wild hypothesis in regard to anything which took place in Ireland, the Government was going to give to them the task of settling the whole matter. First of all, they settled who were to be the applicants and who were to be the landlords they dealt with; then they settled the land to be taken and they went and chose it; then they offered it in exchange for other land without any discussion; and, apparently, having selected a piece of land in the neighbourhood where the tenant lived or in some other county, if the dispossessed persons said: "It is not good enough or is not sufficient," then they were taken away from the administrative side of their duties and put into a judicial position; the Government asked them to come in and decide what was really a dispute between them and the tenant as to the value of the land and as to whether the man should receive compensation in money. Surely that ought not to be looked upon as a judicial inquiry. It reminded him of what was said in "Alice in Wonderland"

"I am the judge, I am the jury.' said cunning old Fury
I will try the whole case and condemn you to death' "
In listening to the Chief Secretary he could not hear any reason against the Amendment, although the right hon. Gentleman talked about similarity of judgments. He did not know anything about that or how it was to be secured in this case. Then the right hon. Gentleman said something about speedy administration. If that was the whole object, and all the Government wanted was to get the thing done, why go before the Estates Commissioners at all? It might just as well be settled by one of the Nationalist Members. But they must have some pretence of justice, and it was said that these Commissioners had a knowledge of the land and were acquainted with these matters. But other people also had a knowledge of the land and were acquainted with them. Apart from the Irish land question he did not think the right hon. Gentleman would have put such a proposal before the House, because he must know that as it stood at present it was indefensible. Indeed no real reason had been offered against the Amendment.

dealing with the suggestion that arbitration should be substituted for the procedure of the Bill, said that the principle of arbitration had been adopted in 1887. The system was in force for many years, but it was found in practice to be so troublesome and costly to all parties that eventually the late Government abolished it in 1896 in the case of compulsory redempton of head rents. With the consent of all parties, the late Government passed an Act abolishing the arbitration, and the matter was left to the unfettered decision of the Land Commissioners. There was a nominal appeal to the Court of Appeal, but the Court had laid it down over and over again that they would not go into questions of fact, and the Land Commission fixed the value in the dispute between the head rent owner and the landowner.

Yes. In this Bill the Government had adopted very nearly the same system. They had Estate Commissioners instead of Land Commissioners. It was the land Commissioners and not the Judge who fixed the value, and the Judge relied on the knowledge of these gentlemen who did justice as between all parties.

said he was astonished at the arguments adduced by the right hon. and learned Gentleman who had sought to justify the rower now proposed to be given to the Land Commission, by comparing the procedure with that in regard to head rents. There was not the smallest analogy between a head rent which carried nothing with it but a money value, and the occupation of a holding which carried with it not only a money value but the whole of the future life and career of the occupant and his wife and family. The Attorney-General looked upon it as a mere bagatelle that a man living in his own house should be turned out. The right hon. and learned Gentleman had said it was not inconvenient to the occupier who was willing to go. Not being a lawyer he could not accept the right hon. and learned Gentleman's view as to the inconvenience felt by the person going out. He thought the inconvenience would be extreme and that the analogy had no relevance whatever. The Chief Secretary's argument, all through, was that the Estates Commissioners were the best men for the purpose of dealing with this question. But that was not the question before the Committee; the question was that they were called upon in the first instance to step in and do certain things—to find land in order to reinstate a particular individual. They selected the individual, and they selected the land on which to put him. Then the man was to be rooted out of his home and placed elsewhere. The new farm, according to the Attorney-General, would prove a better holding to the sitting tenant than that which he at present had. The sitting tenant might not take that view; it might be in another county miles away from where he was, or desired to live, and he might say he objected to go there and that the holding offered was not proper compensation for the holding which he was giving up, and to that man an appeal was given to the persons who had carried out the transaction to which he objected. Could that be regarded as just? Was there any precedent for it? It was quite true that the Attorney-General had given the illustration of the head rent and used it as an argument against arbitration, but he had carried it somewhat further and used it as a justification for abolishing arbitration and then gave no appeal. They did not pin the right hon. Gentleman down to arbitration; his hon. friend would accept the proposal of the Government if the right hon. Gentleman would propose some alternative kind of appeal. The proposed appeal of the Government had not even the semblance of justice. He could not see why the Government had brought in a Bill of this kind at all. Why did they not bring in a Bill of one clause giving the Commissioners the power to do as they pleased? The right hon. Gentleman said the Estates Commissioners had no constituents to satisfy and would receive no reward for their services, and that it would not be their duty to consider how little they could pay. With a larger Ministerial experience than the right hon. Gentleman he said that to speak of a Government official not being governed by motives of economy and by the desire to do the work as cheaply as possible was to deny all the experience of the public service. These men were just as much bound to consider what they were doing with the money as they would be if it was their own, and to say that because it was public money they would not be governed by this consideration was absurd. A public servant said that, if it was his own money, he could afford to be generous, but, as it was public money, he was governed by the law in its administration. Therefore, it was absurd to say that these men would not be bound by principles of economy. The right hon. Gentleman said that they had no constituents. He was not so certain about that. There were constituents of different kinds. They knew perfectly well that this Bill had been introduced in order to gratify, he did not say whether rightly or wrongly, the Nationalist Members of Parliament, who demanded that the evicted tenants should be restored to their holdings. But would. there be no pressure, no criticism, on the part of the public in Ireland if the Estates Commissioners did not give prompt realisation of the hopes raised by this Bill, and if they did not deal in a generous way with the difficulties by which they were confronted? They were asked to leave the whole of this case in the hands of the Estates Commissioners. He agreed with his hon. friend that the Commissioners might all be as clever as the archangel Gabriel, they might do their work as well as possible, but it was inconceivable that there would not be some injustice, some inevitable cases of hardship; and it seemed amazing that the Government were, not prepared to provide some court, or some individual, other than the people who had themselves caused the injury, to whom appeal could be made by an aggrieved person. But it was useless to appeal to the Government. They had civil words from the Chief Secretary and learned arguments from the Attorney-General, but they had no attempt made to meet the difficulties which were pointed out. The Government were apparently determined to go steadily on with the policy which they had laid down. All he could say was that the Chief Secretary had told them that the Commissioners did not desire those powers that were being forced upon them, but however reluctant they might be to accept them now, he was confident that they would not have enjoyed them for six months before, with all their hearts, they would wish that they had never been thrown upon them, and would realise that, if injustice was to be avoided, there must be at all events some tribunal to which injured people could appeal.

thought the Committee would do well to consider the subject matter of the Amendment. They had it on record that it was the intention of the Government through the Estates Commissioners to provide holdings of 40 acres for the evicted tenants. In a light and airy and butterfly manner the Chief Secretary supposed that land could be purchased at £20 an acre, which would do very well. The Chief Secretary professed righteous indignation when it was suggested that. the Commissioners were judges in their own cause, and had expressed a feeling of despair at certain arguments addressed to him. He could assure the right hon. Gentleman that despair was not only on his side of the House. He and those around him had submitted Amendments which were admitted by members of the Government to be not only meritorious but reasonable, yet from some reason or other those Amendments were not accepted. When it was said that the Commissioners were not judges in their own cause it was really playing with words. The Estates Commissioners had the public and statutory duty cast upon them to acquire land and to retail it, and when they were fixing the value of the land they had to take into consideration what they would get from the intending purchasers; so that they were judges in their own cause when they proceeded to fix the price to the retail purchaser. They had a direct interest, if they were to solve the problem at all; the whole tribunal would fall into disfavour if they did not effect a replantation, and they could not do it unless they bought land at a price which would enable them to resell without a loss. In England £800 might appear a small sum, but in Ireland it was a very substantial amount. In the County Court in Ireland the limit of jurisdiction was £500. Here were 40 acres at £20, to be bought for £800, and he did not suppose that the Commissioners would be so foolish as to acquire only one holding at a time on different estates with different considerations of title. They would buy three or four holdings on an estate at one price and one expense, and this gave £2,400 as subject matter of the Amendment. Those on his side of the House i were determined that, if the Commissioners were to take the land and decide the price, there must be some sort of revision of their decision. There was one way of escape from revision, and that was under the Amendment of his hon. friend, because there was never an appeal from an arbitration award, save to the High Court where the arbitrator went wrong on points of law. Arbitration had worked very well under the Land Acts of 1870 and 1880, before the Land Commission was born, and if they deliberately rejected arbitration, from which there was no appeal, he did not see how they were going reasonably to refuse some form of revision of the decision of the Estates Commissioners, who were at once plaintiffs, judge, and jury in their own cause. The Attorney-General had stated that the Unionist Government in 1896, in the matter of the redemption of head rents, had abolished the principle of arbitration. That was perfectly true, but they substituted a form of revision by a tribunal presided over by a Judge of the High Court. But here the only cry they heard from the Government was that the Estates Commissioners were so honest. Aristides was driven into exile because the people were tired of hearing him called honest. The answer to every objection was that the Estates Commissioners were honest. They wanted the answer of the Government brought down to the points they made. It was no answer to say that because the Government had unlimited confidence in the Commissioners, therefore, arbitration should not be resorted to. He took it that there was not to be any arbitration; was there to be any appeal? If land was taken compulsorily under any other statute, the owner or tenants had some way of having the matter rectified. If a railway company desired to take any land or it was required under the Housing Act or for any public purpose whatever, there was a special schedule-fixing the compensation to be paid and an arbitration with or without a jury was provided for.

said that would come up later. At present they were anxious to learn what reasons the Government had for rejecting arbitration. The fact that the Estates Commissioners could fix their own price for the land that they took, without the occupiers having any right of appeal or even the protection of a public hearing, seemed highly amusing to the Attorney-General for Ireland, but it was a serious matter for the people who were to be dispossessed. The right hon. Gentleman had said the new tenants were obstinate and occasioned a large amount of expense in respect of police protection, and that it was in their own interest that they should go to some other neighbourhood where they would be welcomed and could become good citizens; but he did not know that they would be any better off than those who had left the Clanricarde estates and had been hunted with sticks. [A NATIONALIST MEMBER: It is not true.] It would be a very unfortunate thing if these people were to be dispossessed that there should be no guarantee under the Act that the decisions of the Estates Commissioners would be subject to revision. It would not tend to create public confidence in the working of the Act.

said he preferred the hon. and learned Member's reference to Mr. Bailey as Aristides to his letter of March 19. The other night Aristides was to be tried by the hon. and learned Gentleman as soon as he came into office, and instead of Aristides getting an oyster shell he was to get a Royal Commission, presided over by the hon. and learned Gentleman himself. Now Mr. Bailey had become the gentleman whom' the Greeks were tired of calling "the just. "But in the letter of March 19— "Bailey," said he, "you are appointed to hold the scales between Finucane and Wrench, neither of whom was just. "Which of them was Aristides? It could not have been Finucane; it could not have been Wrench, because Aristides had hold of the golden scales between them, and therefore the result of the hon. and learned Gentleman's lubrictions to-night was that Mr. Bailey alone was fit to bear the mantle of Aristides. Every effort in that House had been devoted to a simplification of procedure where compulsion had been a necessity. Under the Workmen's Dwellings Act they could take £1,000 worth of property, and on the bare award of an arbitrator, without a jury and without appeal, in the interests of the working man, the decision of the tribunal was final. Why was that? Because it was felt that in relation to working men's dwellings it was desirable to give a cheap and speedy procedure. When the Labourers Act was passed that was grafted on to it, so that when taking an acre of land compulsorily the same procedure was applied. Now the hon. and learned Gentleman supported an arbitration;but who was going to pay for those awards? The two arbitrators commonly appointed an umpire, and if they paid 20 guineas a day to each and allowed for the expense of the shorthand writer, a room, etc., they would have an expenditure of 100 guineas a day, and these contentious cases might last two days. Thus in an£800 case they proposed to put the cost of a fourth of the total sum in question upon, the parties for an arbitration. Was there any Government out of Bedlam that could accept such an Amendment? The hon. and learned Member would one day be sitting on the Treasury Bench, and he would remind him that these sayings of his would be on record in the pages of Hansard — that work which was quoted in the House as if it were as sacred as the Bible. And with that brief period looming ahead, in which the hon. and learned Gentleman proposed to apply to Mr. Bailey what he would call, for short, the "dry shampoo," was it worth while for a man of his seriousness and solemnity to be engaged in that light-handed extravaganza? No, it was not. The Front Benches had again and again shown their reasonableness in this matter, but there came up fresh crops of Orangemen—he would not say fresh crops of fools, because that would be unparliamentary—but they were callow birds; the Chief Secretary had applied to them a term drawn from the rookery which he would not venture to apply to them, but he would ask them to take a lesson from hon. Members who were their elders, and remember that they were dealing with a serious Irish problem which went to the root of the life of the country. And, therefore, he would beg hon. Gentlemen above the gangway to address themselves to these problems with a more serious mind.

said he would address himself to the matter now under review rather than to the earlier portion of the bright and interesting speech of the hon. Member for North Louth. They were now dealing with the proposal that what were called the "new tenants "—although in Some cases they might have been in possession of their holdings for twenty-eight years—should be placed absolutely in the power of the Estates Commissioners, who were to be able to say whether these men were to continue in their holdings or to lose them on six months notice. It was proposed by the Bill that the compensation to be paid to these men, if they were dispossessed, should be decreed arbitrarily by the Estates Commissioners. He was not going to say a single word about the Estates Commissioners. He had no acquaintance with these gentlemen, and therefore he had no right to criticise them. He preferred to say they were honourable men fit for the position they occupied, and that it was sought to impose upon them a duty from which they, as honourable men, would wish to be free. As one with some slight knowledge of a court of arbitration he did not believe that such a court would be as costly as had been stated by the hon. and learned Member for North Louth. He confessed he had no knowledge of arbitration courts where the costs ran so high as the hon. and learned Member had prophesied they would do in the cases where new tenants who were displaced in favour of evicted tenants were dissatisfied with the offer of the Estates Commissioners. He hoped it was not too late for the Government to reconsider the matter. It was not only un-British, but un-Irish that a body of three gentlemen should have the power of decreeing that certain tenants were to vacate their farms on short notice, and also of deciding the amount of compensation they were to have for that compulsory removal. That was a provision hitherto unheard of in British legislation. He thought a great deal would be done to facilitate the working of the measure if this duty were taken from the Commissioners and placed upon some neutral body. He did not care how the arbitration court might be constituted, but he said it was the duty of the Government to set up some form of arbitration court so that the new tenants who were dispossessed might have confidence that they would be fairly treated.

said his hon. friend the Member for North London- derry had dealt seriously with the Amendment, and his treatment of it contrasted favourably with the light-hearted extravaganza in which the hon. and learned Member for North Louth had indulged. The present Secretary of State for India, when he introduced the Evicted Tenants Bill in 1894, which measure had much the same object as the present Bill, did not suggest that the Land Commissioners should carry out the very onerous and serious duties now proposed. The right hon. Gentleman proposed then to set up an entirely fresh tribunal for that purpose. Moreover, in that Bill some sort of appeal was provided. But it was now suggested that the three Estates Commissioners, who had already an immense quantity of work to do, and were in fact taxed to their utmost, should have additional responsibility thrown upon them. It was a proposal totally different from anything to be found either in the Housing of the Working Classes Act or the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act. The present Bill had for its object the dispossessing of one class of persons to put in another. That was a high-handed proceeding, and all the dictates of justice and commonsense suggested that such a proposal should be hedged round with every safeguard for the purpose of ensuring a fair hearing and a fair trial. It was suggested that there should be an appeal to the county court, but it would be admitted that an appeal to the county court—

We cannot discuss the proposed appeal to the county court under the Amendment now before the Committee. That will come up later on another Amendment.

said he would bow to the Chairman's ruling, and endeavour to restrict his observations to the Amendment. He wished the Committee to realise the circumstances under which they were asked to set up some form of tribunal other than the Estates Commissioners which was not only to fix the price of the land, but where the displaced tenant was to go. The tenant whose present residence was in the county of Mayo or Wicklow, might be sent to the county of Derry. That might inflict a great injury on the unfortunate peasant which was contrary to all sense of justice.

called the hon. Member to order. He was repeating two or three times arguments with which the Amendment had nothing to do.

said that there was one more objection to giving these powers to the Estates Commissioners who would have practically no knowledge of the land to be dealt with. The Estates Commissioners would have to depend entirely on the report of an inspector, who had no practical knowledge of the value of land in the particular district where the sitting tenant was to be displaced, and no knowledge of the county in which the farm was situated that was to be placed at his disposal. All. the inspector could do would be to go on the land and probably dig up a spadeful of earth and say, "this land is worth so much." He maintained that before that could be done there should be a hearing in some open court as in cases where rents were fixed.

again called the hon. Member to order. He must confine himself to the question of substituting a court of arbitration for the Estates Commissioners. It was no use discussing these matters which he had ruled over and over again were not germane to the question before the Committee.

said he bowed to the Deputy Chairman's ruling, but he could not admit that his remarks were not germane to the Amendment.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 272;

Abraham, William (Cork.N.E.)Baker, Sir John (Portmouth)Barnard, E. B.
Adkins, W. Ryland D.Baker,Joseph A.(Finsbury,E.)Barran, Rowland Hirst
Agnew, George WilliamBalfour, Robert (Lanark)Beauchamp, E.
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)Baring,Godfrey (Isle of Wight)Beck, A. Cecil
Ambrose, RobertBarker, JohnBell, Richard
Astbury, John MeirBarlow, Percy (Bedford)Bellairs, Carlyon

said he hoped the Chief Secretary might still see his way to give them some court of appeal.

thought that considering the way they had been gagged they ought to be protected from the continual interruptions from below the gangway. He thought that there must be some stirrings of conscience in that direction. He observed that the hon. Member for Bath—

submitted that this was an Amendment dealing with the tenant in possession. He objected to the term "new tenant" being applied to a man who had been a quarter of a century on a farm.

thought he might be allowed to develop his argument. Without this Amendment the tenants in possession would be left to the dictation of the Estates Commissioners. No doubt the men who had evicted those tenants must come into friction with the men whom they had evicted he asked how it was possible without courts of arbitration, which the Amendment proposed to set up, that three Commissioners could deal with 3,000 cases almost immediately, and possibly 6,000 other cases? As the hon. Member for South Antrim had stated, the proposal of the Bill was to hand over entirely the dealing with these evicted tenants to the three Estates Commissioners, and so paralyse the whole working of the Land Act.

Question put.

Noes, 51. (Division List No. 314.)

Berridge, T. H. D.Halpin, J.Murnaghan, George
Bertram, JuliusHammond, JohnMurphy, John
Birrell, Rt. Hn. AugustineHarcourt, Right Hon. LewisMyer, Horatio
Black, Arthur W.Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)Nannetti, Joseph P.
Boland, JohnHart-Davies, T.Napier, T. B.
Boulton, A. C. F.Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)Nicholson, Charles N.(Doncast'r
Bowerman, C. W.Harwood, GeorgeNolan, Joseph
Branch, JamesHaslam, Lewis (Monmouth)Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Brigg, JohnHaworth, Arthur A.O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid
Bright, J. A.Hayden, John PatrickO'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Brodie, H. C.Hazleton, RichardO'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Buckmaster, Stanley O.Healy, Timothy MichaelO'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Burke, E. Haviland-Helme, Norval WatsonO'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)
Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnHemmerde, Edward GeorgeO'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Burnyeat, W. J. D.Henry, Charles S.O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N
Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasHerbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)O'Malley, William
Byles, William PollardHobart, Sir RobertO'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Cameron, RobertHogan, MichaelO'Shee, James John
Carr-Gomm, H. W.Holland, Sir William HenryParker, James (Halifax)
Cheetham, John FrederickHolt, Richard DurningPartington, Oswald
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, NPearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)
Clancy, John JosephHorniman, Emslie JohnPearce, Willam (Limehouse)
Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham)Hudson, WalterPickersgill, Edward Hare
Cleland, J. W.Hyde, ClarendonPower, Patrick Joseph
Clough, WilliamIsaacs, Rufus DanielPrice, C.E. (Edinburgh, Central)
Clynes, J. R.Jackson, R. S.Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.)
Cobbold, Felix ThornleyJones, William (CarnarvonshireRadford, G. H.
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Joyce, MichaelRaphael, Herbert H.
Collins, Sir Wm. J.(S. Pancras,W.Kekewich, Sir GeorgeRea, Russell (Gloucester)
Condon, Thomas JosephKennedy, Vincent PaulRedmond, John E. (Waterford)
Corbett, CH(Sussex, E. Grinst'dKettle, Thomas MichaelRedmond, William (Clare)
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Kilbride, DenisRendall, Athelstan
Cotton, Sir H. J. S.Kincaid-Smith, CaptainRichards, T. F. (Wolverh'mptn
Cowan, W. H.Laidlaw, RobertRichardson, A.
Cox, HaroldLambert, GeorgeRickett, J. Compton
Crean, EugeneLamont, NormanRoberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Cremer, Sir William RandalLardner, James Carrige RusheRoberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Crombie, John WilliamLaw, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Crooks, WilliamLayland-Barratt, FrancisRobinson, S.
Crossley, William J.Lea, HughCecil (St. Pancras, E.)Roche. Augustine (Cork)
Cullinan, J.Levy, Sir MauriceRoche. John (Galway. East)
Curran, Peter FrancisLewis, John HerbertRoe. Sir Thomas
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. DavidRogers. F. E. Newman
Delany, WilliamLundon, W.Russell, T. W.
Devlin, JosephLupton, ArnoldRutherford, V. H. (Brentford)
Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)Luttrell, Hugh FownesSamuel. S. M. (Whitechapel)
Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-sh.)Lynch, H. B.Scarisbrick, T. T. L.
Dobson, Thomas W.Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)
Donelan, Captain A.Macdonald. J.M. (Falkirk B'ghs)Scott.A.H.(Ashton under Lyne
Duffy, William J.Maclean, DonaldSears J. E.
Duncan, C(Barrow-in-Furness)MacNeill, John Gordon SwiftSeaverns, J. H.
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)Macpherson, J. T.Seely, Major J. G.
Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)MacVeagh, Jeremiah(Down, S.)Shackleton, David James
Eve, Harry TrelawneyMacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Farrell, James PatrickM'Callum, John M.Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)
Ferens, T. R.M'Kean, JohnSheehan. Daniel Daniel
Field, WilliamM'Killop, W.Sherwell, Arthur James
Findlay, AlexanderM'Micking, Major G.Shipman. Dr. John G.
Flavin, Michael JosephMaddison, FrederickSilcock, Thomas Ball
Flynn, James ChristopherMallet, Charles E.Simon, John Allsebrook
Foster, Rt. Hn. Sir WalterManfield, Harry (Northants)Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Fuller, John Michael F.Marks, G.Croydon(Launceston)Snowden, P.
Fullerton, HughMassie, J.Spicer, Sir Albert
Gibb, James (Harrow)Masterman, C. F. G.Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.
Gilhooly. JamesMeagher, MichaelSteadman, W. C.
Gill, A.H.Meehan, Patrick A.Strachey, Sir Edward
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert JohnMenzies, WalterStraus, B. S. (Mile End)
Glendinning, R. G.Money, L. G. ChiozzaStuart, James (Sunderland)
Glover, ThomasMontgomery, H. G.Sutherland, J. E.
Goddard, Daniel FordMooney, J. J.Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Greenwood, Hamar (York)Morgan, J.Lloyd (Carmarthen)Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Gwynn, Stephen LuciusMorrell, PhilipThompson. J.W.H. (Somerset, E

Tomkinson, JamesWatt, Henry A.Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Torrance, Sir A. M.Weir, James GallowayWilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Toulmin, GeorgeWhite, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Verney, F. W.White, Luke (York, E. R.)Wilson, J.W. (Worcestersh. N.)
Vivian, HenryWhite, Patrick (Meath, North)Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras,S.)
Waldron. Laurencs AmbroseWhitley, John Henry (Halifax)Winfrey, R.
Walsh, StephenWhittaker, Sir Thomas PalmerWood, T. M'Kinnon
Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)Wiles, ThomasYoung, Samuel
Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)Wilkie, AlexanderYoxall, James Henry
Wardle, George J.Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Wason, Rt. Hn. E.(ClackmannanWilliams, Osmond (Merioneth)Tellers for the Ayes—Mr.
Wason. John Cathcart (Orkney)Williamson A.Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Waterlow, D. S.Wills, Arthur WaltersPease.
Acland-Hood. Rt Hn. Sir Alex. F.Houston, Robert PatersonRemnant, James Farquharson
Anson, Sir William ReynellHunt, RowlandRoberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall
Balcarres, LordKennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeKenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W.Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)
Barrie, H. T.(Londonderry, N.)Keswick, WilliamSmith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Beckett, Hon. GervaseKing, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)Stone, Sir Benjamin
Boyle, Sir EdwardLane-Fox, G. R.Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Carlile, E. HildredLaw, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)Thornton, Percy M.
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.Liddell, HenryTuke, Sir John Batty
Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim, S.Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R.Turnour, Viscount
Darlymple, ViscountLong, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin. S)Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-Magnus, Sir PhilipWolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Duncan. Robert (Lanark, GovanMeysey-Thompson, E. C.Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart-
Fletcher. J. S.Moore, William
Forster, Henry WilliamNield, HerbertTellers for the Noes—Mr.
Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)Pease, Herbert Pike(DarlingtonAshley and Mr. T. L.
Harris, Frederick LevertonPowell, Sir Francis SharpCorbett.
Hervey, F. W. F.(Bury S. Edm'dsRandles, Sir John Scurrah
Hills, J. W.Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

moved an Amendment with the object of providing that where the Estates Commissioners tried to make the new tenant remove to a farm of which he did not approve he should have the option of one more suitable farm before being turned off with money compensation. If the tenant were not satisfied with the first parcel of land he should be offered another. It was said on the other side of the House that many of these new tenants were not good tenants, but their reputation with the Opposition was exactly the opposite as they thought they were entirely satisfactory tenants. He would much rather see these men in new holdings, but when a man in the ordinary way desired to go to a new holding he selected the holding for himself. In the present case the new tenant who was being dispossessed had not the power of selection, although the desire was expressed to assist him to some other farm. The selection was left with these sympathetic Government officials whose duty was to retail without any loss to the State the land which they had compulsorily acquired. It might well be that in their desire to get rid of a certain parcel of land on their hands the Commissioners might say that all the Act required them to do was to see that the land they selected should not be subject to a higher annuity than the tenant was at present paying, and that therefore the tenant must take the piece of land which fulfilled those conditions whether it was suitable to him or not, and that if he did not he should be compulsorily compensated in money value. The right hon. Gentleman had refused to allow them to put any limitation in the Bill, and, that being so, he thought the new tenant should be given some opportunity of a second refusal before he was compulsorily compensated. Many of these new tenants were most anxious to continue farming. They had to spend their lives in farming when they were not engaged in protecting themselves from the assaults of their neighbours, and if a suitable farm was offered to them they would be content, but he thought they should have some chance of the refusal of a second farm if the first one offered to them was not suitable. There were other reasons besides the quality of the land which, might render the farm unsuitable. The Estates Commissioners might take a new tenant on the ground alluded to by the Attomey-General, that he was unpopular in the district, and cost too much for police, and migrate him to another part of the country. But it had happened that in parts of Ireland compulsory migrants had not been welcomed by the tenants of that district with the effusion that the right hon. and learned Gentleman seemed to expect. It might be that the environment of a farm offered in this way was such that the irresistible temptation to hold mass meetings on the least provocation might lead the tenant of the farm to suspect that the Estates Commissioners had not properly considered his position when selecting the farm. He, therefore, considered that it was only just and fair that the tenant should have the choice of refusing a second farm before he was told: "Out you go, there is your money" He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not say once more that the Amendment was reasonable, but that he could not accept it and that it was a matter in the discretion of the Estates Commissioners. That did not satisfy them; they believed that the more safeguards they placed in the Bill the more satisfactory it would be to those tenants with whom they at least had some sympathy. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed—

"In page 4, line 4, after the word 'heard,' to insert the words "offer him another parcel of land which shall be suitable and in the event of his refusal of such parcel shall.'"—(Mr. Moore.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

said that as the Chief Secretary had been forbidden to speak of the reasonable character of this Amendment he hoped the hon. Member for North Armagh would permit him to recommend this Amendment to the Government in the strongest manner as a most reasonable proposal. It was proposed that, in case a planter was dissatisfied with the farm offered to him, he should have an alternative offer; and, having regard to the advantages of Canada as a field of emigration, and to the fact that there they could get not 40 but 163 acres for nothing, and having regard to the further fact which was the most important of all, namely the bloodthirsty character of these men, and the fact that they could get to Canada by the all-red route, he thought the proposal worthy of support, and he would support it in the most cordial spirit, always provided that that discretion was given to the Estates Commissioners.

said the Chief Secretary evidently felt debarred from saying anything at all on this Amendment. Could it be considered in anyway unreasonable? A man was told to leave his farm and go 20 miles or perhaps 100 miles where another farm awaited him which carried the same annuity that he was now paying and was in other ways suitable. The person who judged that was the inspector. The Estates Commissioners then said that the man must take the land or take a money compensation. That surely was a great hardship, and he was surprised that the hon. Member for North Louth should treat the Amendment with such levity.

thought the hon. Member had a very curious method of showing it. It was a very serious matter. This was only another example of the want of sympathy which pervaded this Bill. Nothing could be more reasonable than that a man placed in such a position should have a choice of another farm if the one offered did not suit him. It was really a sad thing to hear the Committee treating in this manner a perfectly serious Amendment, which the Goverment could accept without in the slightest degree spoiling or deviating from the principle laid down in the Bill.

said he was really astonished at the moderation of the hon. Member. Why restrict the choice of farms to two? Why not have a choice all over Ireland? Why not give the man a choice of twenty? One man might be offered a farm in Munster and another one in Connaught; were they to have two farms in every county in order that the man might have his choice? Or were they to take the tenants about the country in first class carriages—["Motors!"]—to see which farms they would like? He could not believe that the Amendment was seriously intended. What would be the effect of it? They had heard great complaint about the powers to obtain land compulsorily; it was said to be harsh; but by this Amendment they wanted the, Commissioners to take two farms where now it was only proposed to take one. They were to buy two farms in order that each tenant might have his choice. Such a proposal at once doubled the amount of land that would be required. At one time they were told that they were not to take more land than they absolutely required, and at another they were asked to take double the the amount of land they needed. Supposing farms were required by several people, the Commissioners would be bound to take sufficient land to give each tenant his choice of two farms, and, if that were so, what was to become of the farms which were left untenanted? Really he did not think that the Amendment could be intended seriously, and he need not waste the time of the Committee over it.

said the Amendment was seriously moved, and he regretted that the Committee did not treat it seriously, and that the right hon. Gentleman should have imported into the discussion the suggestion that the tenants should be taken about in first-class carriages. In the first place, it was perfectly easy for the Commissioners to avoid all difficulty by offering a man his choice of two farms, before they proceeded to acquire the land. Considering that under this Bill the Commissioners had power to take land compulsorily, they could ascertain what land was suitable and then proceed to acquire it. If the tenant accepted the farm proposed to him the Commissioners need not buy the other. He did not see anything simpler than that. Though the right hon. Gentleman had treated the proceedings in a spirit of hilarity, he thought it right that a man should have a choice of two farms, however it might be regarded as a matter of joke. The subject ought not to be approached in that spirit. These new tenants had led a very strenuous life, and they were now to be dispossessed and turned out of their farms, some of which they had occupied for twenty-five years and more. He thought that these men ought not to be turned out without their being given the choice of suitable holdings in exchange for those they were compelled to give up; and the Commissioners, with the land they had already, and what they could acquire under the Bill, 80,000 acres, would have plenty of land to enable them to offer the tenant his choice of farms. He deeply regretted the spirit which the Front Bench opposite had shown on this occasion, because it showed how right hon. Gentlemen opposite were accustomed to approach this subject in a spirit of subservience to the unchristian and uncharitable cry against the new tenants raised by hon. Members below the gangway.

said the Committee was supposed to be trying to hold the scales fairly between different classes of the population over whom the chances of the election had given them power. In this case they were dealing with the life prospects of men whose fate depended on the action taken under this Bill. [A Nationalist Member: How about Horne?] Nothing illustrated better the spirit in which these matters were being dealt with than that irrelevant, and, might he say, in plain language, that vulgar and unworthy interruption. He asked the Committee to consider what would be the feelings of these men whose fate they were deciding if they could hear the way in which their case was met by those who were, he supposed, their fellow-countrymen. These men had a right to expect that their feelings should be treated by that House with respect and courtesy. He regretted very much that fair consideration was not given to their case. The Amendment was a fair and worthy proposition, deserving of courteous treatment. He confessed to a personal lack of knowledge upon this subject, but he could well understand that there were among this class of tenant a large number who were worthy of fair play and fair treatment. What would they think when they read the reports of what was happening in this House? They would say that they had been made fools of. [Cries of "Question."] They would say that no respect had been paid to their feelings, that they had been made the laughing-stock of the House of Commons by the action of hon. Members below the gangway, and they had not found any defenders on the Front Ministerial Bench whose duty it was to see that they got fair play. Many of these men, to whom this removal meant ruin and destruction, could not help feeling intense resentment. A home was not made up of acres only, but of its surroundings, its amenities, and its possibilities for instruction. Some consideration ought, therefore, to be shown to men who were taken away from their homes in order to give them some choice of selection. [Nationalist cries of "Horne."] He had neither liking nor respect for hon. Members below the gangway [Laughter and cheers]; and he was glad to think that the prejudices of his past life—[Nationalist cheers and cries of "Order."]

Order, order! The right hon. and gallant Gentleman must not go beyond the limits of the Amendment.

:said he would confine himself to the Amendment if the Chairman would see that hon. Members keptorder. [Cries of "Chair."] When the Chairman called him to order he knew how to reply, and when hon. Members opposite called him to order he knew how to reply to them. [Cries of "Order" and "Speak up."] He had had to face many interruptions and a good deal of insult because he had championed the cause of those who had been ill-treated. The Amendment would at least do something to relieve the harshness of treatment with which they were threatened. He be-

Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex F.Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.Banner, John S. Harmood-
Anson. Sir William ReynellBalcarres, LordBaring, Capt. Hn. G. Winchester
Arkwright, John StanhopeBalfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond)Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.
Ashley, W. W.Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeBeckett, Hon. Gervase

lieved that his attitude was not without sympathy on the part of hon. Members opposite. ["Oh, oh."] He did not think that those who laughed at him represented the best of the Liberal Party. [Cries of "Question."] At any rate, he was not ashamed to raise his voice on behalf of what he honestly believed to be a slight measure of justice and fair play on behalf of those who were without champions, and to put their case as being worthy of the attention of the House.

expressed regret that the right hon. Member had been cut short in his tale about his past life. The right hon. Member had stated that he had been met with jeers and insult. So far from that being the case, he could say that, as far as he was concerned, he had shown that he was willing to think Imperially on this question. He had thrown out the suggestion of Colonial preference for the evicted men, but that had not met with the approval of hon. Members. He would make another suggestion. On some estates in England there was a large amount of untenanted land, he would not say from what cause or under what circumstances, because if he did he would be accused of vulgar abuse. As there was such a desire that English landlords should be enabled to acquire the services of these men, and English yeomen might have to be supplanted through disputes about game and things of that sort, a large body of most loyal, hard-working, and contented men could be placed at the service of British agriculturists. If the right hon. and gallant Gentleman would propose to translate to his own county these men from the Clanricarde estate, he could assume him that, at whatever cost, they would be glad to support him in that proposition.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 85; Noes, 331. (Division List No. 315.)

Bowles, G. StewartHills, J. W.Roberts. S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Boyle, Sir EdwardHouston, Robert PatersonRonaldshay, Earl of
Burdett-Coutts, W.Hunt, RowlandRutherford, John (Lansashire)
Butcher, Samuel HenryKennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Carlile, E. HildredKenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W.Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Cavendish. Rt. Hn. Victor C.W.Keswick, WilliamSmith. F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)King, Sir Henry Seymour (HullSmith Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-Lane-Fox, G. R.Starkey, John R.
Chamberlain. Rt. Hn. J. A. (Wor.Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)Stone, Sir Benjamin
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. HenryLiddell, HenryTalbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt. Col. A. RThornton, Percy M.
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham)Tuke, Sir John Batty
Craik, Sir HenryLong. Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin. S.Turnour, Viscount
Dalrymple, ViscountLowe. Sir Francis WilliamValentia, Viscount
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. AlfredWalrond, Hon. Lionel
Duncan. Robert (Lanark. GV'nMagnus, Sir PhilipWarde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Faber, George Denison (York)Mason, James F. (Windsor)Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Fardell, Sir T. GeorgeMeysey-Thompson, E. C.Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E. R.)
Fletcher, J. S.Morpeth, ViscountWolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Forster, Henry WilliamNield, HerbertWortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)O'Niell, Hon. Robert TorrensYounger, George
Gretton, JohnPowell, Sir Francis Sharp
Harrison-Broadley, H. B.Randles, Sir John ScurrahTellers for the Ayes—Mr.
Hay, Hon. Claude GeorgeRatcliff, Major R, F.Moore and Mr. Charles Craig
Hervey, F.W.F.(Bury S. E'm'dsRawlinson. John Frederick Peel
Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)Remnant, James Farquharson
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knigh tEve, Harry Trelawney
Acland, Francis DykeCheetham, John FrederickFarrell, James Patrick
Adkins, W. Ryland D.Cherry, Rt, Hon. R. R.Ferens, T. R.
Agnew, George WilliamChurchill, Rt, Hon. Winston S.Ferguson, R. C. Munro
Ainsworth, John StirlingClancy, John JosephField, William
Alden. PercyClarke, C. Goddard (Peckham)Findlay, Alexander
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)Cleland, J. W.Flavin, Michael Joseph
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)Clough, WilliamFlynn, James Christopher
Ambrose, RobertClynes, J. R.Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter
Armitage, R.Cobbold, Felix ThornleyFuller, John Michael F.
Astbury, John MeirCollins, Stephen (Lambeth)Fullerton, Hugh
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)Collins. Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, WGibb, James (Harrow)
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)Condon, Thomas JosephGilhooly, James
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)Cooper, G. J.Gill, A. H.
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)Corbett, C.H.(Sussex, E. Grinst'dGladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John
Barker, JohnCotton, Sir H. J. S.Glendinning, R. G.
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)Cowan, W. H.Glover, Thomas
Barnard, E. B.Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)Goddard, Daniel Ford
Barnes, G. N.Crean, EugeneGooch, George Peabody
Barran, Rowland HirstCremer, Sir William RandalGrant, Corrie
Beauchamp, E.Crombie, John WilliamGreenwood, G. (Peterborough)
Beck, A. CecilCrooks, WilliamGreenwood, Hamar (York)
Bell, RichardCrossley, William J.Griffith, Ellis J.
Bellairs, CarlyonCullinan, J.Gwynn, Setphen Lucius
Berridge, T. H. D.Curran, Peter FrancisHaldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.
Bertram, JuliusDalmeny, LordHalpin, J.
Birrell, Rt. Hon. AugustineDalziel, James HenryHammond, John
Black, Arthur W.Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis
Boland, JohnDavis, Timothy (Fulham)Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)
Boulton, A. C. F.Delany, WilliamHart-Davies, T.
Bowerman, C. W.Devlin, JosephHarvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)
Branch, JamesDewar, Arthur (Eninburgh, S.)Harwood, George
Brigg, JohnDewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-sh.)Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)
Bright. J. A.Dickinson, W.H. (St. Pancras. NHaworth, Arthur A.
Brodie, H. C.Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.Hayden, John Patrick
Buchanan, Thomas RyburnDobson, Thomas W.Hazleton, Richard
Buckmaster, Stanley O.Donelan, Captain A.Healy, Timothy Michael
Burke, E. Haviland-Duffy, William J.Helme, Norval Watson
Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnDuncan, C. (Barrow-in-FurnessHemmerde, Edward George
Burnyeat, W. J. D.Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)Henry, Charles S.
Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasEdwards, Clement (Denbigh)Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)
Byles, William PollardEdwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)Hobart, Sir Robert
Cameron, RobertElibank, Master ofHobhouse, Charles E. H.
Carr-Gomm, H. W.Erskine, David C.Hogan, Michael

Holland, Sir William Henry Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)Seddon, J.
Holt, Richard DurningMorgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)Seely, Major J. B.
Hope, W.Bateman (Somerset, NMorrell, PhilipShackleton, David James
Horniman, Emslie JohnMorton, Alpheus CleophasShaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Hudson, WalterMurnaghan, GeorgeShaw, Rt. Hon. T.(Hawick B.)
Hyde, ClarendonMurphy, JohnSheehan, Daniel Daniel
Illingworth, Percy H.Myer, HoratioSherwell, Arthur James
Isaacs, Rufus DanielNannetti, Joseph P.Shipman, Dr. John G.
Jackson, R. S.Napier, T. B.Silcock, Thomas Ball
Jacoby, Sir James AlfredNicholson, Charles N. (Donc'st'rSimon, John Allsebrook
Jones, Leif (Appleby)Nolan, JosephSinclair, Rt. Hon. John
Jones, William (CarnarvonshireNorton, Capt. Cecil WilliamSmeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Joyce, MichaelO'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary MidSnowden, P.
Kearley, Hudson E.O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)Spicer, Sir Albert
Kekewich, Sir GeorgeO'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)Stanley. Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)
Kelley, George D.O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)Steadman, W. C.
Kennedy, Vincent PaulO'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Kettle, Thomas MichaelO'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)Strachey, Sir Edward
Kilbride, DenisO'Grady, J.Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Kincaid-Smith, CaptainO'Kelly, James (Roscommon, NStuart, James (Sunderland)
King, Alfred John (Knutsford)O'Malley, WilliamSutherland, J. E.
Laidlaw, RobertO'Shaughnessy, P. J.Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Lambert, GeorgeO'Shee, James JohnTaylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Lamont, NormanParker, James (Halifax)Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E)
Lardner, James Carrige RushePartington, OswaldThompson. J. W. H. (Somerset, E
Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)Tomkinson, James
Layland-Barratt, FrancisPearce, William (Limehouse)Torrance, Sir A. M.
Lea. Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)Toulmin, George
Lehmann, R. C.Pearson, W.H.M. (Suffolk, Eye)Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Levy, Sir MauricePhilipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)Vivian, Henry
Lewis, John HerbertPhilipps, Owen C.(Pembroke)Waldron, Laurence Ambrose
Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. DavidPickersgill, Edward HareWalsh, Stephen
Lough, ThomasPirie, Duncan V.Walters, John Tudor
Lundon, W.Powell. Sir Francis SharpWalton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Lupton, ArnoldPrice, C.E. (Edinb'gh, Central)Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)
Luttrell, Hugh FownesPrice, Robert John (Norfolk, E.Wardle, George J.
Lyell, Charles HenryRadford, G. H.Wason, Rt. Hn. E.(Clackmannan
Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)Rainy, A. RollandWason. John Cathcart (Orkney)
Macdonald, J.M.(Lalkirk B'ghsRaphael, Herbert H.Waterlow, D. S.
Mcckarness, Frederic C.Rea, Russell (Gloucester)Watt, Henry A.
Maclean, DonaldRea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'Weir, James Galloway
Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.Redmond, John E. (Waterford)Whitbread, Howard
MacNeill, John Gordon SwiftRedmond, William (Clare)White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Macpherson, J. T.Rendall. AthelstanWhite, Luke (York, E. R.)
MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'nWhite, Patrick (Meath, North)
MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)Richardson, A.Whitehead, Rowland
M'Callum, John M.Rickett, J. ComptonWhitley, John Henry (Halifax
M'Kean, JohnRoberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. ReginaldRoberts, G. H. (Norwich)Wiles, Thomas
M'Killop, W.Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)Wilkie, Alexander
M'Micking, Major G.Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rdWilliams, J. (Glamorgan)
Maddison, FrederickRobertson, J. M. (Tyneside)Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Mallet, Charles E.Robinson, S.Williamson, A.
Manfield, Harry (Northants)Robson, Sir William SnowdenWills, Arthur Walters
Markham, Arthur BasilRoche, Augustine (Cork)Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Marks. G. Croydon (Launceston)Roche, John (Galway, East)Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Marnham, F. J.Roe, Sir ThomasWilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Massie, J.Rogers, F. E. NewmanWilson, J.W. (Worcestersh. N)
Meagher, MichaelRunciman. WalterWilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Meehan, Patrick A.Russell, T. W.Winfrey. R.
Menzies, WalterRutherford, V. H. (Brentford)Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Micklem, NathanielSamuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)Young, Samuel
Molteno, Percy AlportSamuel, S. M. (White chapel)Yoxall, James Henry
Mond, A.Scarisbrick, T. T. L.
Money, L. G. ChiozzaSchwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)Tellers for THE Noes—Mr.
Montagu, E. S.Scott, A.H.(Ashton under LyneWhiteley and Mr. J. A.
Montgomery, H. G.Sears, J. E.Pease.
Mooney, J. J.Seaverns, J.H.

And, it being after half-past Ten of the clock, the Chairman proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 22nd July, successively to put forthwith the Questions on the Amendments moved by the Government of which notice had been given, and the Questions necessary to dispose of the Business to be concluded.

Abraham,William (Cork, N.E.)Crean, EugeneHemmerde, Edward George
Acland, Francis DykeCremer, Sir William RandalHenry, Charles S.
Adkins, W. Ryland D.Crombie, John WilliamHerbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)
Agnew, GeorgeWilliamCrooks, WilliamHobart, Sir Robert
Ainsworth, John StirlingCrossley, William J.Hobhouse, Charles E. H.
Alden, PercyCullinan, J.Hogan, Michael
Allen, A.Acland (Christchurch)Curran, Peter FrancisHolland, Sir William Henry
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)Dalmeny, LordHolt, Richard Durning
Ambrose, RobertDalziel, James HenryHope,W.Bateman (Somerset,N
Armitage, R.Davies, Ellis William (Eition)Horniman, Emslie John
Asquith.Rt.Hon.HerbertHenryDavies, Timothy (Fulham)Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
Astbury, John MeirDelany, WilliamHudson, Walter
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)Devlin, JosephHyde, Clarendon
Baker.Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)Illingworth, Percy H.
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)Dewar,Sir J.A. (lnverness-sh.)Isaacs, Rufus Daniel
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)Dickinson, W.H. (St.Pancras,N.Jackson,R. S.
Barker, JohnDickson-Poynder, Sir John P.Jacoby, Sir James Alfred
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)Dobson, Thomas W.Jones, Leif (Appleby)
Barnard, E. B.Donelan, Captain A.Jones, William (Carnarvonshire
Barnes, G. N.Duffy, William J.Joyce, Michael
Barran, Rowland HirstDuncan, C.(Barrow-in-FurnessKearley, Hudson E.
Beauchamp, E.Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)Kekewich, Sir George
Beck, A. CecilEdwards, Clement (Denbigh)Kelley, George D.
Bell, RichardEdwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)Kennedy, Vincent Paul
Bellairs, CarlyonElibank, Master ofKettle, Thomas Michael
Berridge, T. H. D.Erskine, David C.Kilbride, Denis
Bertram, JuliusEve, Harry TrelawneyKincaid-Smith, Captain
Birrell, Rt. Hon. AugustineFarrell, James PatrickKing, Alfred John (Knutsford)
Black, Arthur W.Ferens, T. R.Laidlaw, Robert
Boland, JohnFerguson, R. C. MunroLambert, George
Boulton, A. C. F.Field, WilliamLamont, Norman
Bowerman, C. W.Findlay, AlexanderLardner, James Carrige Rushe
Branch, JamesFlavin, Michael JosephLaw, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)
Brigg, JohnFlynn, James ChristopherLayland-Barratt, Francis
Bright, J. A.Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir WalterLea,Nugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.
Brodie, H. C.Fuller, John Michael F.Lehmann, R. C.
Buchanan, Thomas RyburnFullerton, HughLevy, Sir Maurice
Buckmaster, Stanley O.Gibb, James (Harrow)Lewis, John Herbert
Burke, K. HavilandGilhooly, JamesLloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David
Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnGill, A. H.Lough, Thomas
Burnyeat. W. J. D.Gladstone,Rt.Hn.Herbert JohnLundon, W.
Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasGlendinning, R. C.Lupton, Arnold
Byles, William PollardGlover, ThomasLuttrell, Hugh Fownes
Cameron, RobertGoddard, Daniel FordLyell, Charles Henry
Carr-Gomm, H. W.Gooch, George PeabodyMacdonald, J. R. (Leicester)
Causton,Rt.Hn. RichardKnightGrant, CorrieMacdonald,J.M. (Falkirk B'ghs
Cheetham, John FrederickGreenwood, G. (Peterborough)Mackarness, Frederic C.
Cherry. Rt. Hon. R. R.Greenwood, Hamar (York)Maclean, Donald
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.Griffith, Ellis J.Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Clancy. John JosephGwynn, Stephen LuciusMacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Clarke. C. Goddard (Peckham)Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.Macpherson, J. T.
Cleland, J. W.Halpin, J.MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down.S.
Clough, WilliamHammond, JohnMacVeigh,Charles (Donegal, E.
Clynes. J. R.Harcourt, Rt. Hon. LewisM'Callum, John M.
Cobbold, Felix, ThornleyHardy, George A. (Suffolk)M'Kean, John
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Hart-Davies, T.M'Kenna, fit. Hon. Reginald
Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W.Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)M'Killop, W.
Condon, Thomas JosephHarwood, GeorgeM'Micking, Major G.
Cooper G. J.Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)Maddison, Frederick
Corbett,C.H.(Sussex;,E.Grinst'dHaworth, Arthur A.Mallet, Charles E.
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Hayden, John PatrickManfield, Harry (Northants)
Cotton, Sir H. J. S.Hazleton, RichardMarkham, Arthur Basil
Cowan, W. H.Healy, Timothy MichaelMarks,G.Croydon(Launceston)
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)Helme, Norval WatsonMarnham, F. J.

Question put, "That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 336; Noes, 83. (Division List No. 316.)

Massie, J.Rainy, A. RollandStraus, B. S. (Mile End)
Meagher, MichaelRaphael, Herbert H.Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Meehan, Patrick A.Rea, Russell (Gloucester)Sutherland, J. E.
Menzies, WalterRea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Micklem, NathanielRedmond, John E. (WaterfordTaylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Molteno, Percy AlportRedmond, William (Clare)Thomas,Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Mond, A.Rendall, AthelstanThompson,J.W.H. (Somerset,E
Montagu, E. S.Richards,T.F. (Wolverh'mpt'nTomkinson, James
Montgomery, H. G.Richardson, A.Torrance, Sir A. M.
Mooney, J. J.Rickett, J. ComptonToulmin, George
Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)Vivian, Henry
Morrell, PhilipRoberts, John H. (Denbighs.)Waldron, Laurence Ambrose
Morton, Alpheus CleophasRobertson.Sir G.Scott (Bradf'dWalsh, Stephen
Murnaghan, GeorgeRobertson, J. M. (Tyneside)Walters, John Tudor
Murphy, JohnRobinson, S.Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Myer, HoratioRobson, Sir William SnowdonWard, John (Stoke upon Trent
Nannetti, Joseph P.Roche, Augustine (Cork)Wardle, George J.
Napier, T. B.Roche, John (Galway, East)Wason,Rt.Hn.E.(Clackmannan
Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)Roe, Sir ThomasWason,John Cathcart (Orkney
Nicholson,Charles N.(Donc'st'rRogers, F. E. NewmanWaterlow, D. S.
Nolan, JosephRunciman, WalterWatt, Henry A.
Norton, Capt. Cecil WilliamRussell, T. W.Weir, James Galloway
O'Brien,Kendal(TipperaryMid.Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)Whitbread, Howard
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)Samuel,Herbert L. (Cleveland)White,J.D. ((Dumbartonshire)
O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)White, Luke (York, E.R.)
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)Scarisbrick, T. T. L.White, Patrick (Meath, North)
O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)Whitehead, Rowland
O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)Scott,A.H.(Ashton under LyneWhitley, John Henry (Halifax)
O'Grady, J.Sears, J. E.Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
O'Kelly,James(Roscommon,N.Seaverns, J. H.Wiles, Thomas
O'Malley, WilliamSeddon, J.Wilkie, Alexander
O'Shaughnessy, P. J.Seely, Major J. B.Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
O'Shee, James JohnShackleton, David JamesWilliams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Parker, James (Halifax)Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)Williamson, A.
Partington, OswaldShaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)Wills, Arthur Walters
Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)Sheehan, Daniel DanielWilson,Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Pearce, William (Limehouse)Sherwell, Arthur JamesWilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Pearson, Sir W.D. (Colchester)Shipman, Dr. John G.Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Pearson,W.H.M. (Suffolk, Eye)Silcock, Thomas BallWilson, J. W. (Worcestersh.,N.
Philipps.Col.Ivor (S'th'mpton)Simon, John AllsebrookWilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)Sinclair, Rt. Hon. JohnWinfrey, R.
Pickersgill, Edward HareSmeaton, Donald MackenzieWood, T. M'Kinnon
Pirie, Duncan V.Snowden. P.Young, Samuel
Power, Patrick JosephSpicer, Sir AlbertYoxall, James Henry
Price, C.E. (Edinburgh, CentralStanley,Hn. A. Lyulph (Ches.)
Price,Robert John (Norfolk, E.Steadman, W. C.Tellers for the Ayes—Mr.
Priestley.W.E.B. (Bradford, E.Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Radford, G. H.Strachey, Sir EdwardPease.
Anson, Sir William ReynellCochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.Kennaway,Rt.Hn. Sir John H.
Arkwright, John StanhopeCorbett, T. L. (Down, North)Kenyon-Slaney,Rt.Hn. Col. W.
Ashley, W. W.Craig,Charles Curtis (Antrim,S.Keswick, William
Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt.Hn.Sir H.Craik, Sir HenryKing,Sir Henry Seymour (Hull
Balcarres, LordDalrymple, ViscountLane-Fox, G. R.
Balfour,Rt.Hn.A.J.(City Lond.Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-Liddell, Henry
Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeDuncan, Robert (Lanark.G'v'nLockwood,Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col. A.R.
Banner, John S. Harmood-Faber, George Denison (York)Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesh'm
Baring,Capt.Hn.G (WinchesterFardell, Sir T. GeorgeLong.Rt.Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.Fletcher, J. S.Lowe, Sir Francis William
Beckett, Hon. GervaseForster, Henry WilliamLyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred
Bowles, G. StewartGardner, Ernest (Berks., East)Magnus, Sir Philip
Poyle, Sir Edward.Gretton, JohnMason, James F. (Windsor)
Burdett-Coutts, W.Harrison-Broadley, H. B.Meysey-Thompson, E. C.
Butcher, Samuel HenryHay, Hon. Claude GeorgeMorpeth, Viscount
Carlile, E. HildredHervey,F.W.F.(Bury S.Edm'dsNield, Herbert
Cavendish.Rt.Hn. Victor C.W.Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)Hills, J. W.Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-Houston, Robert PatersonRandles, Sir John Scurrah
Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.J.A.(Wor.Hunt, RowlandRatcliff, Major R. F.

Rawlinson,John Frederick PeelStarkey, John R.Williams, Col. R, (Dorset, W.
Remnant, James FarquharsonStone, Sir BenjaminWilson,A.Stanley (York, E.R.
Roberts, S. (Sheffield, EcclesallTalbot, Lord E. (Chichester)Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Ronaldshay, Earl ofThomson.W.Mitchell- (Lanark)Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Rutherford, John (Lancashire)Thornton, Percy M.Younger, George
Sassoon, Sir Edward AlbertTuke, Sir John Batty
Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)Tumour, ViscountTellers for the Noes—Sir
Smith.F.E. (Liverpool, WaltonWalrond, Hon. LionelAcland-Hood and Viscount
Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)Valentia.

Clause 4:—

Amendments madeߞ

"In page 4, line 28, after the word 'under,' to insert the words 'the foregoing provisions of.'"
"In page 4, line 30, at the end, to add,' (3) Allcosts and expenses in the opinion of the Judicial Commissioner necessarily and properly incurred by any petitioner in respect of a petition under this Act, or by any new tenant on a hearing before the Estates Commissioners, or by any person having a claim

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)Byles, William PollardDunn, A. Edward (Camborne)
Acland, Francis DykeCameron, RobertEdwards, Clement (Denbigh)
Adkins, W. Ryland D.Carr-Gomm, H. W.Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)
Agnew, George WilliamCauston,Rt. Hn. RichardKnightElibank, Master of
Ainsworth, John StirlingCheetham, John FrederickErskine, David C.
Alden, PercyCherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.Eve, Harry Trelawney
Allen,A.Acland (Christchurch)Churchill,Rt.Hon. Winston S.Farrell, James Patrick
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)Clancy, John JosephFerens, T. R.
Ambrose, RobertClarke, C. Goddard (Peckham)Ferguson, R. C. Munro
Armitage, R.Cleland, J. W.Field, William
Asquith.Rt.Hn.Herbert HenryClough, WilliamFiennes, Hon. Eustace
Astbury, John MeirClynes, J. R.Findlay, Alexander
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)Cobbold, Felix ThornleyFlavin, Michael Joseph
Baker, JosephA.(Finsbury,E.)Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Flynn, James Christopher
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)Collins,Sir Wm.J.(S.Pancras,W.Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter
Baring.Godfrey (Isle of Wight)Condon, Thomas JosephFuller, John Michael F.
Barker, JohnCooper, G. J.Fullerton, Hugh
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,E.Grinst'dGibb, James (Harrow)
Barnard, E. B.Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Gilhooly, James
Barnes, G. N.Cotton, Sir H. J. S.Gill, A. H.
Barran, Rowland HirstCowan, W. H.Gladstone,Rt.Hn. Herbert John
Beauchamp, E.Craig,Herbert J. (Tynemouth)Glendinning, R. G.
Beck, A. CecilCrean, EugeneGlover, Thomas
Bell, RichardCremer, Sir William RandalGoddard, Daniel Ford
Bellairs, CarlyonCrombie, John WilliamGooch, George Peabody
Berridge, T. H. D.Crooks, WilliamGreenwood,G. (Peterborough)
Bertram, JuliusCrossley, William J.Greenwood, Hamar (York)
Birrell, Rt. Hon. AugustineCullinan, J.Griffith, Ellis J.
Black, Arthur W.Curran, Peter FrancisGwynn, Stephen Lucius
Boland, JohnDalziel, James HenryHaldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.
Boulton, A. C. F.Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)Halpin, J.
Bowerman, C. W.Davies, Timothy (Fulham)Hammond, John
Branch, JamesDelany, WilliamHarcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis
Brigg, JohnDevlin, JosephHardy, George A. (Suffolk)
Bright, J. A.Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)Hart-Davies, T.
Brodie, H. C.Dewar.Sir J. A.(Inverness-sh.)Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)
Buchanan, Thomas RyburnDickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras,N.Harwood, George
Buckmaster, Stanley O.Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)
Burke, E. Haviland-Dobson, Thomas W.Haworth, Arthur A.
Burns, Rt. Hn. JohnDonelan, Captain A.Hayden, John Patrick
Burnyeat, W. J. D.Duffy, William J.Hazleton, Richard
Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasDuncan, C. (Barrow-in-FurnessHealy, Timothy Michael

upon the purchase money of land acquired under this Act in the ascertainment of the titleto and distribution of that money, shall be paid as part of the expenses of the Land Commission to the person who incurred such costs or expenses.'"—( Mr. Cherry.)

Question put, "That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 336; Noes, 83. (Division List No. 317.)

Helme, Norval WatsonMontagu, E. S.Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)
Hemmerde, Edward GeorgeMontgomery, H. G.Scott,A.H.(Ashton underLyne)
Henry, Charles S.Mooney, J. J.Sears, J. E.
Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)Seaverns, J. H.
Hobart, Sir RobertMorgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)Seddon, J.
Hobhouse, Charles E. H.Morrell, Philip'Seely, Major J. B.
Hogan, MichaelMorse, L. L.Shackleton, David James
Holland, Sir William HenryMorton, Alpheus CleophasShaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Holt, Richard DurningMurnaghan, GeorgeShaw,Rt, Hon. T. (Hawick B.)
Hope,W.Bateman(Somerset,N.Murphy, JohnSheehan, Daniel Daniel
Horniman, Emslie JohnMyer, HoratioSherwell, Arthur James
Howard, Hon. GeoffreyNannetti, Joseph P.Shipman, Dr. John G.
Hudson, WalterNapier, T. B.Silcock, Thomas Ball
Hyde, ClarendonNewnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)Simon, John Allsebrook
Illingworth, Percy H.Nicholson,Charles N(DoncasterSinclair, Rt. Hon. John
Isaacs, Rufus DanielNolan, JosephSmeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Jackson, R. S.Norton, Capt. Cecil WilliamSnowden, P.
Jacoby, Sir James AlfredO'Brien,Kendal (TipperaryMidSpicer, Sir Albert
Jones, Leif (Appleby)O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)Stanley,Hn.A.Lyulph (Chesh.)
Jones, William (CarnarvonshireO'Connor, John(Kildare, N.)Steadman, W. C.
Joyce, MichaelO'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Kearley, Hudson E.O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)Strachey, Sir Edward
Kekewich, Sir GeorgeO'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Kelley, George D.O'Grady, J.Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Kennedy, Vincent PaulO'Kelly,James(Roscommon,N.Sutherland, J. E.
Kettle, Thomas MichaelO'Malley, WiliamTaylor, John W. (Durham)
Kilbride, DenisO'Shaughnessy, P. J.Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Kincaid-Smith, CaptainO'Shee, James JohnThomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan,E.)
King, Alfred John (Knutsford)Parker, James (Halifax)Thompson, J. W. H.(Somerset,E.
Laidlaw, RobertPartington, OswaldTomkinson, James
Lambert, GeorgePearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)Torrance, Sir A. M.
Lamont, NormanPearce, William (Limehouse)Toulmin, George
Lardner, James Carrige RushePearson, Sir W.D. (Colchester)Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)Pearson,W.H.M.(Suffolk, Eye)Vivian, Henry
Layland-Barratt, FrancisPhilipps, Col. Ivor (S'thamptonWaldron, Laurence Ambrose
Lea,Hugh Cecil (St.Pancras,E.Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)Walsh, Stephen
Lehmann, R. C.Pickersgill, Edward HareWalters, John Tudor
Levy, Sir MauricePirie, Duncan V.Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Lewis, John HerbertPower, Patrick JosephWard, John (Stoke upon Trent)
Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. DavidPrice.C.E. (Edinb'gh.Central)Wardle, George J.
Lough, ThomasPrice,Robert John(Norfolk E.)Wason.Rt.Hn.E (Clackmannan
Lundon, W.Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford,E.)Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)
Lupton, ArnoldRadford, G. H.Waterlow, D. S.
Luttrell, Hugh FownesRainy, A. RollandWatt, Henry A.
Lyell, Charles HenryRaphael, Herbert H.Weir, James Galloway
Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)Rea, Russell (Gloucester)Whitbread, Howard
Macdonald,J.M.(Falkirk Bg'hRea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Mackarness, Frederic C.Redmond, John E. (Waterford)White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Maclean, DonaldRedmond, William (Clare)White, Patrick (Meath, North)
MacNeill, John Gordon SwiftRendall, AthelstanWhitehead, Rowland
Macpherson, J. T.Richards, T.F.(Wolverhampt'nWhitley, John Henry (Halifax)
MacVeagh,Jeremiah (Down.S.)Richardson, A.Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
MacVeigh, Charles(Donegal, E.)Rickett, J. ComptonWiles, Thomas
M'Callum, John M.Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)Wilkie, Alexander
M'Kean, JohnRoberts, G. H. (Norwich)Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. ReginaldRoberts, John H. (Denbighsh.)Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
M'Killop, W.Robertson,SirGScott (BradfordWilliamson, A.
M'Micking, Major G.Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)Wills, Arthur Walters
Maddison, FrederickRobinson, S.Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Mallet, Charles E.Robson, Sir William SnowdonWilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Manfield, Harry (Northants)Roche, Augustine (Cork)Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Markham, Arthur BasilRoche, John (Galway, East)Wilson,J.W.(Worcestersh., N.)
Marks,G.Croydon (Launceston)Roe, Sir ThomasWilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Marnham, F. J.Rogers, F. E. NewmanWinfrey, R.
Massie, J.Rowlands, J.Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Meagher, MichaelRunciman, WalterYoung, Samuel
Meehan, Patrick A.Russell, T. W.Yoxall, James Henry
Menzies, WalterRutherford, V. H. (Brentford)
Micklem, NathanielSamuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland;TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Molteno, Percy AlportSamuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Mond, A.Scarisbrick, T. T. L.Pease.

Acland- Hood, Rt Hn. Sir Alex. F.Fardell, Sir T. GeorgePowell, Sir Francis Sharp
Anson, Sir William ReynellForster, Henry WilliamRandles, Sir John Scurrah
Arkwright, John StanhopeGardner, Ernest (Berks, East)Ratcliff, Major R. F.
Ashley, W. W.Gretton, JohnRawlinson, JohnFrederickPee
Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt, Hon.SirH.Harrison-Broadley, H. B.Remnant, James Farouharson
Balcarres, LordHay, Hon. Claude GeorgeRoberts, S.(Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Balfour, RtHn.A.J.(City Lond.Hervey,F.W.F.(BuryS.Edm'dsRonaldshay, Earl of
Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeHill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Banner, John S. Harmood-Hills, J. W.Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Baring, Capt.Hn.G(WinchesterHouston, Robert PatersonScott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Barrie, H. T.(Londonderry, N.)Hunt, RowlandSmith.F.E. (Liverpool,Walton)
Beckett, Hon. GervaseKennaway, Rt. Hon.SirJohnH.Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Bowles, G. StewartKenyon-Slaney,Rt.Hon.Col.W.Starkey, John R.
Boyle, Sir EdwardKeswick, WilliamStone, Sir Benjamin
Burdett-Coutts, W.King,Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark
Butcher, Samuel HenryLane-Fox, G. R.Thornton, Percy M.
Carlile, E. HildredLiddell, HenryTuke, Sir John Batty
Cavendish, Rt.Hn.Victor C.W.Lockwood, Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col.A.R.Turnour, Viscount
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)Long, Col. CharlesW.(EveshamWalrond, Hon. Lionel
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-Long, Rt.Hn, Walter(Dublin, S.Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)
Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.J.A(Worc.Lowe, Sir Francis WilliamWilliams, Col. R, (Dorset, W.)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E.Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. AlfredWilson, A.Stanley(York, E.R.)
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)Magnus, Sir PhilipWolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim, S.Mason, James F. (Windsor)Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B.Stuart-
Craik, Sir HenryMeysey-Thompson, E. C.Younger, George
Dalrymple, ViscountMoore, William
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-Morpeth, ViscountTellers for the Noes—Vis-
Duncan,Robert(Lanark,GovanNield, Herbertcount Valentia and Lord
Faber, George Denison (York)O'Neill, Hon. Robert TorrensEdmund Talbot.

Clause 5:—

Amendment made—

"In page 4, line 40, at the end, to add the words, 'in redemption of an equal amount of the original advance.'"—(Mr. Cherry.)

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)Branch, JamesCrean, Eugene
Acland, Francis DykeBrigg. JohnCremer, Sir William Randal
Adkins, W. Ryland D.Bright, J. A.Crombie, John William
Agnew, George WilliamBrodie, H. C.Crooks, William
Ainsworth, John StirlingBuchanan, Thomas RyburnCrossley, William J.
Alden, PercyBuckmaster, Stanley O.Cullinan, J.
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)Burke, E. HavilandCurran, Peter Francis
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)Burns. Rt. Hon. JohnDalziel, James Henry
Ambrose, RobertBurnyeat, W. J. D.Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)
Armitage, R.Burt, Rt, Hon. ThomasDavies, Timothy (Fulham)
Asquith, Rt.Hn.Herbert HenryByles, William PollardDelany, William
Astbury, John MeirCarr-Gomm, H. W.Devlin, Joseph
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)Causton,Rt.Hn. Richard KnightDewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)Cheetham, John FrederickDewar, Sir. J. A (Inverness-sh
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.Dickinson,W. H.(St.Pancras,N.
Barker, JohnChurchill, Rt. Hon, Winston S.Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)Clancy, John JosephDobson, Thomas W.
Barnard, E. B.Clacke, C. Goddard (Peckham)Donelan, Captain A.
Barnes, G. N.Cleland, J. W.Duffy, Will am
Barran, Rowland HirstClough, WilliamDuncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness)
Beauchamp, E.Clynes, J. R.Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)
Beck, A. CecilCobbold, Felix ThornleyEdwards, Clement (Denbigh)
Bell, RichardCollins, Stephen (Lambeth)Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)
Bellairs, CarlyonCollins, Sir Wm.J(S.Pancras,W.Elibank, Master of
Berridge, T. H. D.Condon, Thomas JosephErskine, David C.
Bertram, JuliusCooper, G. J.Eve, Harry Trelawney
Birrell, Rt. Hon. AugustineCorbett, C.H.(Sussex,E.Grinst'dFarrell, James Patrick
Black, Arthur W.Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Ferens, T. R.
Boland, JohnCotton, Sir H. J. S.Field, William
Boulton, A. C. F.Cowan, W. H:Fiennes, Hon. Eustace
Bowerman, C. W.Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)Findlay, Alexander

Question put, "That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 332; Noes, 82. (Division List No. 318.)

Flavin, Michael JosephLuttrell, Hugh FownesRea, Russell (Gloucester)
Flynn, James ChristopherLyell, Charles HenryRea, Walter Russell (Scarboro
Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir WalterMacdonald, J. R. (Leicester)Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Fuller, John Michael F.Macdonald,J.M.(FalkirkB'ghsRedmond, William (Clare)
Fullerton, HughMackarness, Frederic C.Rendall, Athelstan
Gibb, James (Harrow)Maclean, DonaldRichards,T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n)
Gilhooly, JamesMacnamara, Dr. Thomas J.Richardson, A.
Gill, A. H.MacNeill, John Gordon SwiftRickett, J. Compton
Gladstone, Rt.HnHerbertJohnMacpherson, J. T.Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Glendinning, R. G.MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S.)Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Glover, ThomasMacVeigh,Charles(Donegal, E.)Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Goddard, Daniel FordM'Callum, John M.Robertson,SirG. Scott(Bradf'rd
Gooch, George PeabodyM'Kean, JohnRobertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. ReginaldRobinson, S.
Greenwood, Hamar (York)M'Killop, W.Robson, Sir William Snowdon
Griffith, Ellis J.M'Micking, Major G.Roche, Augustine (Cork)
Gwynn, Stephen LuciusMaddison, FrederickRoche, John (Galway, East)
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.Mallet, Charles E.Roe, Sir Thomas
Halpin, J.Manfield, Harry (Northants)Rogers, F. E. Newman
Hammond, JohnMarkham, Arthur BasilRowlands, J.
Harcourt, Right Hon. LewisMarks,G.Croydon(Launceston)Runciman, Walter
Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)Marnham, F. J.Russell, T. W.
Hart-Davies, T.Massie, J.Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)
Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)Meagher, MichaelSamuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Harwood, GeorgeMeehan, Patrick A.Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)Menzies, WalterScarisbrick, T. T. L.
Haworth, Arthur A.Micklem, NathanielSchwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)
Hayden, John PatrickMolteno, Percy AlportScott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne
Hazleton, RichardMond, A.Sears, J. E.
Healy, Timothy MichaelMontagu, E. S.Seaverns, J. H.
Helme, Norval WatsonMontgomery. H. G.Seddon, J.
Hemmerde, Edward GeorgeMooney, J. J.Seely, Major J. B.
Henry, Charles S.Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)Shackleton, David James
Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)Morgan, J.Lloyd(Carmarthen)Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Hobart, Sir RobertMorrell, PhilipShaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick. B.)
Hobhouse, Charles E. H.Morse, L. L.Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Hogan, MichaelMorton, Alpheus CleophasSherwell, Arthur James
Holland, Sir William HenryMurnaghan, GeorgeShipman, Dr. John G.
Holt, Richard DurningMurphy, JohnSilcock, Thomas Ball
Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset,N.Myer, HoratioSimon. John Allsebrook
Horniman, Emslie JohnNannetti, Joseph P.Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
Howard, Hon. GeoffreyNapier, T. B.Smeaton, Donald.Mackenzie
Hudson, WalterNewnes, F, (Notts, Bassetlaw)Snowden, P.
Hyde, ClarendonNicholson,CharlesN.(Doncast'rSpicer, Sir Albert
Illingworth, Percy H.Nolan, JosephStanley,Hn.A.Lyulph(Chesh.)
Isaacs, Rufus DanielNorton, Capt. Cecil WilliamSteadman, W. C.
Jackson, R. S.O'Brien,Kendal (TipperaryMidStewart-Smith. D. (Kendal)
Jacoby, Sir James AlfredO'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)Strachey, Sir Edward
Jones, Leif (Appleby)O'Connor, John (Kildare, N,)Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Joyce, MichaelO'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)Sutherland, J. E.
Kearley, Hudson E.O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Kekewich, Sir GeorgeO'Grady, J.Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Kelley, George D.O'Kelly,James(Roscommon,N.Thomas,SirA.(Glamorgan,E.)
Kennedy, Vincent PaulO'Malley, WilliamThompson, J.W.H(Somerset,E.
Kettle, Thomas MichaelO'Shauglmessy, P. J.Tomkinson, James
Kilbride, DenisParker, James (Halifax)Torrance, Sir A. M.
Kincaid-Smith, CaptainPartington, OswaldToulmin, George
King, Alfred John (Knutsford)Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)Verney, F. W.
Laidlaw, RobertPearce, William (Limehouse)Vivian, Henry
Lambert, GeorgePearson,Sir W.D. (Colchester)Waldron, Laurence Ambrose
Lamont, NormanPearson, W.H.M.(Suffolk.Eye)Walsh, Stephen
Lardner, James Carrige RushePhilipps,Col.Ivor-S'thampton)Walters, John Tudor
Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Layland-Barratt, FrancisPickersgill, Edward HareWard,John(Stoke upon Trent)
Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras.E.Pirie, Duncan V.Wardle, George J.
Lehmann, R. C.Power, Patrick JosephWason.Rt.Hn.E. (Clackmannan
Levy, Sir MauricePrice,C.E.(Edinburgh, Central)Wason,JohnCathcart(Orkney)
Lewis, John HerbertPrice,RobertJohn(Norfolk,E.)Waterlow, D. S.
Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. DavidPriestley, W.E.B.(Bradford,E.)Watt, Henry A.
Lough, ThomasRadford, G. H.Weir, James Galloway
Lundon, W.Rainy, A. RollandWhitbread, Howard
Lupton, ArnoldRaphael, Herbert H.White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire);

White, Luke (York, E. R.)Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)Winfrey, R.
White, Patrick (Meath, North)Willaimson, A.Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Whitehead, RowlandWills, Arthur WaltersYoung, Samuel
Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)Wilson, Henry J.(York,W.R.)Yoxall, James Henry
Whittaker, Sir Thomas PalmerWilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Wiles, ThomasWilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)Tellers for the Ayes—Mr.
Wilkie, AlexanderWilson,J.W. (Worcestersh. N.Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Williams, J. (Glamorgan)Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)Pease.
Anson, Sir William ReynellGardner, Ernest (Berks, East)Ratcliff, Major R. F.
Arkwright, John StanhopeGretton, JohnRawlinson, JohnFredorickPeel
Ashley, W. W.Harrison-Broadley, H. B.Remnant, James Farquharson
Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt.Hon.SirH.Hay, Hon. Claude GeorgeRoberts,S.(Sheffield,Eeclesall)
Balfour,RtHn.A.J. (CityLond.)Hervey, F. W. F. (BuryS. Edm'dsRonaldshay, Earl of
Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeHill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Banner, John S. Harmood-Hills, J. W.Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Baring, Capt.Hn,G(Winchester)Houston, Robert PatersonScott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Barrie, H. T.(Londonderry,N.)Hunt, RowlandSmith,F.E.(Liverpool,Walton)
Beckett, Hon. GervaseKennaway,Rt. Hon. Sir John H.Smith, Hon. W. F. D.(Strand)
Bowles, G. Stewart'Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W.Starkey, John R.
Boyle, Sir EdwardKeswick, WilliamStone, Sir Benjamin
Burdett-Coutts, W.King, Sir Henry Seymour(Hull)Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Butcher, Samuel HenryLane-Fox, G. R.Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)
Carlile, E. HildredLiddell, Henry.Thornton, Percy M.
Cavendish,Rt.Hon.Victor C. W.Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt. -Col. A. R.Turnour, Viscount
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)Long,Col. Charles W. (Evesham)Valentia, Viscount
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin.S)Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.J.A.(Worc.Lowe, Sir Francis WilliamWarde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. AlfredWilliams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)Magnus, Sir PhilipWilson, A.Stanley(York.E. R.)
Courthope, G. LoydMason, James F. (Windsor)Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Craig,CharlesCurtis(Antrim,S.Meysey-Thompson, E. C.Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B.Stuart-
Craik, Sir HenryMoore, WilliamYounger, George
Dalrymple, ViscountMorpeth, Viscount
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-Nield, HerbertTellers for the Noes—Sir
Duncan, Robert(Lanark,GovanO'Neill, Hon. Robert TorrensAlexander Acland-Hood and
Faber, George Denison (York)Powell, Sir Francis SharpLord Balcarres.
Forster, Henry WilliamRandles, Sir John Scurrah

Clauses 6 and 7 agreed to.

Clause 8:—

Amendment made—

"In page 5, line 22, at the end, to add, '(2) No holding purchased by an evicted tenant, whether under the Act of 1903 or this Act, shall be made available in any bankruptcy, or by any process or proceeding of law, to pay, satisfy, or discharge, in whole or in part, any debt contracted or incurred by such evicted

Abraham, William(Cork, N.E.)Balfour, Robert (Lanark)Black, Arthur W.
Acland, Francis DykeBaring,Godfrey(Isle of Wight)Boland, John
Adkins, W. Ryland D.Barker, JohnBoulton, A. C. F.
Agnew, George WilliamBarlow, Percy (Bedford)Bowerman, C. W.
Ainsworth, John StirlingBarnard, E. B.Branch, James
Alden, PercyBarnes, G. N.Brigg, John
Allen, A. Acland(Christchurch)Barran, Rowland HirstBright, J. A.
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)Beauchamp, E.Brodie, H. C.
Ambrose, RobertBeck, A. CecilBuckmaster, Stanley O.
Armitage, R.Bell, RichardBurke, E. Haviland-
Asquith,Rt. HonHerbertHenryBellairs, CarlyonBurns, Rt. Hon. John
Astbury, John MeirBerridge, T. H. D.Burnyeat, W. J. D.
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)Bertram, JuliusBurt, Rt. Hon. Thomas
Baker, Joseph A.(Finsbury, E.)Birrell, Rt. Hon. AugustineByles, William Pollard

tenant prior to the date of the order vesting such holding in him.' "—( Mr. Cherry.)

Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 9:—

Question put, "That the clause, stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 329; Noes, 80. (Division List No. 319.)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)Menzies, Walter
Causton.Rt.Hn.RiehardKnightHarwood, GeorgeMicklem, Nathaniel
Cheetham, John FrederickHaslam, Lewis (Monmouth)Molteno, Percy Alport
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.Haworth, Arthur A.Mond, A.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.Hayden, John PatrickMontagu, E. S.
Clancy, John JosephHazleton, RichardMontgomery, H. G.
Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham)Healy, Timothy MichaelMooney, J. J.
Cleland, J. W.Helme, Norval WatsonMorgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)
Clough, WilliamHemmerde, Edward GeorgeMorgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen
Clynes, J. R.Henry, Charles S.Morrell, Philip
Cobbold, Felix; ThornleyHerbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)Morse, L. L.
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Hobart, Sir RobertMorton, Alpheus Cleophas
Collins.SirWm.J.(S Pancras, W.Hobhouse, Charles E. H.Murnaghan, George
Condon, Thomas JosephHogan, MichaelMurphy, John
Cooper, G. J.Holland, Sir William HenryMyer, Horatio
Corbett,CH(Sussex,E. Grinst'dHolt, Richard DurningNannetti, Joseph P.
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset,N.Napier, T. B.
Cotton, Sir H. J. S.Howard, Hon. GeoffreyNewnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)
Cowan, W. H.Hudson, WalterNicholson,Charles N(Doncast'r
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)Hyde, ClarendonNolan, Joseph
Crean, EugeneIllingworth, Percy H.Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Cremer, Sir William RandalIsaacs, Rufus DanielO'Brien,Kendal(TipperaryMid
Crombie, John WilliamJackson, R.S.O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Crooks, WilliamJacoby, Sir James AlfredO'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Crossley, William J.Jones, Leif (Appleby)O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Cullinan, J.Jones, William CarnarvonshireO'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)
Curran, Peter FrancisJoyce, MichaelO'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Dalziel, James HenryKearley, Hudson E.O'Grady, J.
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)Kekewich, Sir GeorgeO'Kelly,James (Roscommon.N
Davies, Timothy (Fulham)Kelley, George D.O'Malley, William
Delany, WilliamKennedy, Vincent PaulO'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Devlin, JosephKettle, Thomas MichaelO'Shee, James John
Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)Kilbride, DenisParker, James (Halifax)
Dewar,Sir.J. A. (Inverness-sh.)Kincaid-Smith, CaptainPartington, Oswald
Dickinson,W. H.(St.Pancras,NKing,Alfred John(Knutsford)Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.Laidlaw, RobertPearce, William (Limehouse)
Dobson, Thomas W.Lambert, GeorgePearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)
Donelan, Captain A.Lamont, NormanPearson, W.H.M.(Suffolk,Eye)
Duffy, William J.Lardner, James Carrige RushePhilipps,Col. Ivor(S'thampton)
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-FurnessLaw, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)Layland-Barratt, FrancisPickersgill, Edward Hare
Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)Lehmann, R. C.Pirie, Duncan V.
Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)Levy, Sir MauricePower, Patrick Joseph
Elibank, Master ofLewis, John HerbertPrice,C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)
Erskine, David C.Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. DavidPrice.RobertJohn(Norfolk, E.)
Eve, Harry TrelawneyLough, ThomasPriestley,W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)
Farrell, James PatrickLundon, W.Radford, G. H.
Ferens, T. R.Lupton, ArnoldRainy, A. Rolland
Field, WilliamLuttrell, Hugh FownesRaphael, Herbert H.
Fiennes, Hon. EustaceLyell, Charles HenryRea, Russell (Gloucester)
Findlay, AlexanderMacdonald, J. R. (Leicester)Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'
Flavin, Michael JosephMacdonald.J. M. (Falkirk B'ghsRedmond, John E. (Waterford)
Flynn, James ChristopherMackarness, Frederic C.Redmond, William (Clare)
Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir WalterMaclean, DonaldRendall, Athelstan
Fuller, John Michael F.Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mptn
Fullerton, HughMacNeill, John Gordon SwiftRichardson. A.
Gibb, James (Harrow)Macpherson, J. T.Rickett, J. Compton
Gilhooly, JamesMacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Gill, A. H.MacVeigh,Charles(Donegal, E.)Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Gladstone.Rt. Hn Herbert JohnM'Kean, JohnRoberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Glover, ThomasM'Kenna, Rt. Hon. ReginaldRobertson, Rt.Hn. E. (Dundee)
Goddard, Daniel FordM'Killop, W.Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Gooch, George PeabodyM'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)Robinson, S.
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)M'Micking, Major G.Robson, Sir William Snowdon
Greenwood, Hamar (York)Maddison, FrederickRoche, Augustine (Cork)
Griffith, Ellis J.Mallet, Charles E.Roche, John (Galway, East)
Gwynn, Stephen LuciusManfield, Harry (Northants)Roe, Sir Thomas
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.Markham, Arthur BasilRogers, F. E. Newman
Halpin, J.Marks,G.Croydon(Launceston)Rowlands, J.
Hammond, JohnMarnham, F. J.Runciman, Walter
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. LewisMassie, J.Russell, T. W.
Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)Meagher, MichaelRutherford, V. H. (Brentford)
Hart-Davies, T.Meehan, Patrick A.Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)Stuart, James (Sunderland)White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Scarisbrick, T. T. L.Sutherland, J. E.White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)Taylor, John W. (Durham)Whitehead, Rowland
Scott,A.H.(Ashton under LyneTaylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
Sears, J. E.Thomas,Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Seaverns, J. H.Thompson,J.W.H.(Somerset,EWiles, Thomas
Seddon, J.Tomkinson, JamesWilkie, Alexander
Seely, Major J. B.Torrance, Sir A. M.Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Shackleton, David JamesToulmin, GeorgeWilliams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)Verney, F. W.Williamson, A.
Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.Vivain, HenryWills, Arthur Walters
Sheehan, Daniel DanielWaldron. Laurence AmbroseWilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Sherwell, Arthur JamesWalsh, StephenWilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Shipman, Dr. John G.Walters, John TudorWilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Silcock, Thomas BallWalton, Joseph (Barnsley)Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh.,N)
Simon, John AllsebrookWard, John (Stoke upon Trent)Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Smeaton, Donald MackenzieWardle, George J.Winfrey, R.
Snowden, P.Wason,Rt.Hn E.(ClackmannanWood, T. M'Kinnon
Spicer, Sir AlbertWason,John Cathcart(Orkney)Young, Samuel
Stanley, Hn. A.LyuIpty(Chesh.)Waterlow, D. S.Yoxall, James Henry
Steadman, W. C.Watt, Henry A.
Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)Weir, James GallowayTellers for the Ayes—Mr.
Strachey, Sir EdwardWhitbread, HowardWhiteley and Mr. J. A.
Straus, B S. (Mile End)White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)Pease.
Acland-Hood.Rt.Hn.Sir Alex.FFaber, George Denison (York)O'Niell, Hon. Robert Torrens
Anson, Sir William ReynellForster, Henry WilliamRandles, Sir John Scurrah
Arkwright, John StanhopeGardner, Ernest (Berks, East)Ratcliff, Major R. F.
Ashley, W. W.Gretton, JohnRawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt.Hn. Sir H.Harrison-Broadley, H. B.Remnant, James Farquharson
Balcarres, LordHay, Hon. Claude GeorgeRoberts,S.(Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Balfour,Rt.Hn.A.J. (City LondHervey.F.W.F. (Bury S.E'm'dsRonaldshay, Earl of
Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeHill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Banner, John S. Harmood-Hills, J. W.Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Baring,Capt.Hn.G.(WinchesterHouston, Robert PatersonScott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)Hunt, RowlandSmith,F. E.(Liverpool,Walton)
Beckett, Hon. GervaseKennaway,Rt.Hn. Sir John H.Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Bowles, G. StewartKenyon-Slaney, Rt.Hn. Col.W.Starkey, John R.
Boyle, Sir EdwardKeswick, WilliamStone, Sir Benjamin
Burdett-Coutts, W.King,Sir Henry Seymour (HullThomson,W. Mitchell-(Lanark)
Butcher, Samuel HenryLane-Fox, G. R.Thornton, Percy AL
Carlile, E. HildredLiddell, HenryTurnour, Viscount
Cavendish, Rt.Hn. Victor C.W.Lockwood,Rt,Hn.Lt.-Col. A.R.Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)Long,Col. Charles W.(EveshamWarde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-Long,Rt.Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.Williams, Col R. (Dorset, W.)
Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.J.A.(WoreLowe, Sir Francis WilliamWilson,A.Stanley (York, E. R.)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. AlfredWolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)Magnus, Sir PhilipWortley, Rt. Hon. C. B.Stuart-
Courthope, G. LloydMason, James F. (Windsor)Younger, George
Craig,Charles Curtis (Antrim,S.Meysey-Thompson, E. C.
Craik, Sir HenryMoore, WilliamTellers for the Noes—
Dalrymple, ViscountMorpeth, ViscountViscount Valentia and Lord
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-Nield, HerbertEdmund Talbot.

Clause 10:—

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 328;

Abraham,William (Cork, N.E.)Ambrose, RobertBarker, John
Acland, Francis DykeArmitage, R.Barlow, Percy (Bedford)
Adkins, W. Ryland D.Asquith,Rt.Hn. Herbert HenryBarnard, E. B.
Agnew, George WilliamAstbury, John MeirBarnes, G. N.
Ainsworth, John StirlingBaker, Sir John (Portsmouth)Barran, Rowland Hirst
Alden, PercyBaker,Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)Beauchamp, E.
Allen,A.Aeland (Christchurch)Balfour, Robert (Lanark)Beck, A. Cecil
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)Baring, Godfrey (Isle of WightBell, Richard

Question put, "That the clause stand part of the Bill."

Noes, 78. (Division List No. 320.)

Bellairs, CarlyonGill, A. H.MacVeagh.Jeremiah (Down, S.
Berridge, T. H. D.Gladstone,Rt. Hn.Herbert JohnMacVeigh,Charles(Donegal, E.)
Bertram, JuliusGlendinning, R. G.M'Callum, John M.
Birrell, Rt. Hon. AugustineGoddard, Daniel FordM'Kean, John
Black, Arthur W.Gooch, George PeabodyM'Kenna. Rt. Hon. Reginald
Boland, JohnGrant, CorrieM'Killop, W.
Boulton, A. C. F.Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)
Bowerman, C. W.Greenwood, Hamar (York)M'Micking, Major G.
Branch, JamesGriffith, Ellis J.Maddison, Frederick
Brigg, JohnGwynn, Stephen LuciusMallet, Charles E.
Bright, J. A.Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.Manfield, Harry (Northants)
Brodie, H. C.Halpin, J.Markham, Arthur Basil
Buckmaster, Stanley O.Hammond, JohnMarks,G.Croydon (Launceston)
Burke, E. Haviland-Harcourt, Rt. Hon. LewisMarnham, F. J.
Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnHardy, George A. (Suffolk)Massie, J.
Burnyeat, W. J. D.Hart-Davies, T.Meagher, Michael
Byles, William PollardHarvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)Meehan, Patrick A.
Carr-Gomm, H. W.Harwood, GeorgeMenzies, Walter
Causton,Rt.Hn.RichardKnightHaslam, Lewis (Monmouth)Micklem, Nathaniel
Cheetham, John FrederickHaworth, Arthur A.Molteno, Percy Alport
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.Hayden, John PatrickMond, A.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.Hazleton, RichardMoney, L. G. Chiozza
Clancey, John JosephHealy, Timothy MichaelMontagu, E. S.
Cleland, J. W.Helme, Norval WatsonMontgomery, H. G.
Clough, WilliamHemmerde, Edward GeorgeMooney, J. J.
Clynes, J. R.Henry, Charles S.Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)
Cobbold, Felix ThornleyHerbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)Morgan,J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Hobart, Sir RobertMorrell, Philip
Collins,SirWm.J. (S.Pancras, WHobhouse, Charles E. H.Morse, L. L.
Condon, Thomas JosephHogan, MichaelMorton, Alpheus Cleophas
Cooper, G. J.Holland, Sir William HenryMurnaghan, George
Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,E. Gr'st'dHolt, Richard DurningMurphy, John
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Hope,W.Bateman (Somerset,NMyer, Horatio
Cotton, Sir H. J. S.Horniman, Emslie JohnNannetti, Joseph P.
Cowan, W. H.Howard, hon. GeoffreyNapier, T. B.
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)Hudson, WalterNewnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)
Crean, EugeneHyde, ClarendonNicholson, Charles N.(Doncast'r
Cremer, Sir William RandalIllingworth, Percy H.Nolan, Joseph
Crombie, John WilliamIsaacs, Rufus DanielNorton, Capt. Cecil William
Crooks, WilliamJackson. R. S.O'Brien,Kendal(Tipperary Mid
Crossley, William J.Jacoby, Sir James AlfredO'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Cullinan, J.Jones, Leif (Appleby)O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Curran, Peter FrancisJones,William (CarnarvonshireO'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Dalziel, James HenryJoyce, MichaelO'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)Kearley, Hudson E.O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.
Davies, Timothy (Fulham)Kekewich, Sir GeorgeO'Grady, J.
Delany, WilliamKelley, George D.O'Kelly, James (Roscommon,N.
Devlin, JosephKennedy, Vincent PaulO'Malley, William
Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)Kettle, Thomas MichaelO'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-sh.)Kilbride, DenisO'Shee, James John
Dickinson,W.H. (St. Pancras,NKing, Alfred John (Knutsford)Parker, James (Halifax)
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.Laidlaw, RobertPartington, Oswald
Dobson, Thomas W.Lambert, GeorgePearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek
Donelan, Captain A.Lamont, NormanPearce, William (Limehouse)
Duffy. William J.Lardner, James Carrige RushePearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-FurnessLaw, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)Pearson,W.H.M. (Suffolk, Eye)
Dunn, A. Edward (Cambrone)Layland-Barratt, FrancisPhilipps.Col. Ivor(S'thampton)
Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)Lehmann, R. C.Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)
Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)Levy, Sir MauricePickersgill, Edward Hare
Elibank, Master ofLewis, John HerbertPirie, Duncan V.
Erskine, David C.Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. DavidPower, Patrick Joseph
Farrell, James PatrickLough, ThomasPrice, C. E. (Edinb'gh,Central)
Ferens, T. R.Lundon, W.Price,Robert John (Norfolk,E.)
Field, WilliamLupton, ArnoldPriestley, W.E.B. (Bradford,E.
Fiennes, Hon. EustaceLuttrell, Hugh FownesRadford, G. H.
Findlay, AlexanderLyell, Charles HenryRainy, A. Rolland
Flavin, Michael JosephMacdonald, J. R. (Leicester)Raphael, Herbert H.
Flynn, James ChristopherMacdonald,J.M. (Falkirk B'ghsRea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'
Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir WalterMackarness, Frederic C.Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Fuller, John Michael F.Maclean, DonaldRedmond, William (Clare)
Fullerton, HughMacnamara, Dr. Thomas J.Rendall, Athelstan
Gibb, James (Harrow)MacNeill, John Gordon SwiftRichards, T.F. (Wolverh'mpt'n
Gilhooly, JamesMacpherson, J. T.Richardson,A.

Rickett, J. ComptonShipman, Dr. John G.Watt, Henry A.
Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)Silcock, Thomas BallWeir, James Galloway
Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)Simon, John AllsebrookWhitbread, Howard
Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)Smeaton, Donald MackenzieWhite, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Robertson,SirG.Scott (Bradf'rdSnowden, P.White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)Spicer, Sir AlbertWhite, Patrick (Meath, North)
Robinson, S.Stanley, Hn.A.Lyulph (Chesh.)Whitehead, Rowland
Robson, Sir William SnowdonSteadman, W. C.Whitley, John Henry(Halifax)
Roche, Augustine (Cork)Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Roche, John (Galway, East)Strachey, Sir EdwardWiles, Thomas
Roe, Sir ThomasStraus, B. S. (Mile End)Wilkie, Alexander
Rogers, F. E. NewmanStuart, James (Sunderland)Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Rowands, J.Sutherland, J. E.Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Runciman, WalterTaylor, John W. (Durham)Willimson, A.
Russell, T. W.Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)Wills, Arthur Walters
Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)Thompson,J.W.H. (Somerset,EWilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)Tomkinson, JamesWilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Scarisbrick, T. T. L.Toulmin, GeorgeWilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)
Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)Verney, F. W.Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Scott,A.H.(Ashton under LyneVivian, HenryWinfrey, R.
Sears, J. E.Waldron, Laurence AmbroseWood, T. M'Kinnon
Seaverns, J. H.Walsh, StephenYoung, Samuel
Seddon, J.Walters, John TudorYoxall, James Henry
Seely, Major J. B.Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Shackleton, David JamesWard, John (Stoke upon Trent)Tellers for the Ayes—Mr.
Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)Wardle, George J.Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)Wason,Rt.Hn.E.(ClackmannanPease.
Sheehan, Daniel DanielWason, JohnCatheart (Orkney)
Sherwell, Arthur JamesWaterlow, D. S.
Anson, Sir William ReynellGretton, JohnRemnant, James Farquharson
Arkwright, John StanhopeHarrison-Broadley, H. B.Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall
Ashley, W. W.Hay, Hon. Claude GeorgeRonaldshay, Earl of
Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt.Hon.SirHHervey, F.W.F.(BuryS.Edm'dsRutherford,John (Lancashire)
Balcarres, LordHill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Balfour,RtHn.A.J.(City Lond.)Hills, J. W.Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeHouston, Robert PatersonSmith, F.E. (Liverpool, Walton
Banner, John S. Harmood-Hunt, RowlandSmith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Baring,Capt.Hn.G (WinchesterKennaway,Rt.Hon.Sir John H.Starkey, John R.
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.Kenyon-Slaney,Rt.Hon.Col.W.Stone, Sir Benjamin
Beckett, Hon. GervaseKing,Sir HenrySeymour (Hull)Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Bowles. G. StewartLane-Fox, G. R.Thomson,W.Mitchell- (Lanark)
Boyle, Sir EdwardLiddell, HenryThornton, Percy M.
Butcher, Samuel HenryLockwood,Rt.Hn. Lt.-Col.A.R.Turnour, Viscount
Carlile, E. HildredLong,Col. Charles W.(EveshamValentia, Viscount
Cavendish,RtHon.Victor C.W.Long, Rt.Hn.Walter(Dublin,S.)Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)Lowe, Sir Francis WilliamWarde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. AlfredWilliams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Chamberlain,RtHn. J. A.(Worc.Magnus, Sir PhilipWilson,A. Stanley (York, E.R.)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.Mason, James F. (Windsor)Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)Meysey-Thompson, E. C.Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Courthope, G. LoydMoore, WilliamYounger, George
Craig,Charles Curtis(Antrim,S.Morpeth, Viscount
Craik, Sir HenryNield, HerbertTellers for the Noes—Sir
Dalrymple, ViscountO'Neill, Hon. Robert TorrensAlexander Acland-Hood and
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-Randles, Sir John ScurrahMr. Forster.
Faber, George Denison (York)Ratcliff, Major R. F.
Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Clause 11:—

Amendment made—

"In page 5, line 36, after the word 'agreement,' to insert the words 'and the provision? of section fourteen of The Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1887, with respect to money paid into the Bank of Ireland shall apply where money is so paid under this Act."—(Mr. Cherry.)

Amendment agreed to.

Question, "That Clause 11, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Clause 12:

Amendment made—

"In page 6, line 2, leave out from the word 'as,' to end of line 4, and insert the words ' if they were county court judges in Ireland.'"—(Mr Cherry.)

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)Curran, Peter FrancisHudson, Walter
Acland, Francis DykeDalziel, James HenryHyde, Clarendon
Adkins, W. Ryland D.Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)Illingworth, Percy H.
Agnew, George WilliamDavies, Timothy (Fulham)Isaacs, Rufus Daniel
Ainsworth, John StirlingDelany, WilliamJackson, R. S.
Alden, PercyDevlin, JosephJacoby. Sir James Alfred
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)Jones, Leif (Appleby)
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-sh.)Jones, William(Carnarvonshire
Ambrose, RobertDickinson,W.H. (St.Pancras.N)Joyce, Michael
Armitage, R.Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.Kearley, Hudson E.
Asquith,Rt.Hn. Herbert HenryDobson, Thomas W.Kekewich, Sir George
Astbury, John MeirDonelan, Captain A.Kelley, George D.
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)Duffy, William J.Kennedy, Vincent Paul
Baker, Joseph A.(Finsbury, E.)Duncan,C.(Barrow-in-Furness)Kettle, Thomas Michael
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)Kilbride, Denis
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)Edwards, Clement (Dengbigh)King, Alfred John (Knutsford)
Barker, JohnEdwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)Laidlaw, Robert
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)Elibank, Master ofLambert, George
Barnard, E. B.Erskine, David C.Lamont, Norman
Barnes, G. N.Farrell, James PatrickLardner, James Carrige Rushe
Barran, Rowland HirstFerens, T. R.Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)
Beauchamp, E.Field, WilliamLehmann, R. C.
Beck, A. CecilFiennes, Hon. EustaceLevy, Sir Maurice
Bellairs, CarlyonFindlay, AlexanderLewis, John Herbert
Berridge, T. H. D.Flavin, Michael JosephLloyd-George. Rt. Hon. David
Black, Arthur W.Flynn, James ChristopherLough, Thomas
Boland, JohnFoster, Rt. Hon. Sir WalterLundon, W.
Boulton, A. C. F.Fuller, John Michael F.Lupton, Arnold
Bowerman, C. W.Fullerton, HughLuttrell, Hugh Fownes
Branch, JamesGibb, James (Harrow)Lyell, Charles Henry
Brigg, JohnGilhooly, JamesMacdonald, J. R. (Leicester)
Bright, J. A.Gill, A. H.Macdonald, J.M(FalkirkB'ghs
Brodie, H. C.Gladstone,Rt.Hn.Herbert JohnMackarness. Frederic C.
Buckmaster, Stanley O.Glendinning, R. G.Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Burke, E. HavilandGoddard, Daniel FordMacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnGreenwood, G. (Peterborough)Macpherson, J. T.
Burnyeat, W. J. D.Greenwood, Hamar (York)MacVeagh, Jeremiah(Down, S.)
Byles, William PollardGriffith, Ellis J.MacVeigh, Charles(Donegal,E.)
Carr-Gomm, H. W.Gwynn, Stephen LuciusM'Callum, John M.
Causton,Rt. HnRichardKnightHaldane, Rt. Hon. Richard BM'Kean, John
Cheetham, John FrederickHalpin, J.M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.Hammond, JohnM'Killop, W.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.Harcourt, Rt. Hon. LewisM'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)
Clancy, John JosephHardy, George A. (Suffolk)M'Micking, Major G.
Cleland, J. W.Hart-Davies, T.Maddison, Frederick
Clough, WilliamHarvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)Mallet, Charles E.
Clynes, J. R.Harwood, GeorgeManfield, Harry (Northants)
Cobbold, Felix ThornleyHaworth, Arthur A.Markham, Arthur Basil
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Hayden, John PatrickMarks, G.Croydon(Launceston)
Collins,SirWm.J(S.Pancras,W.)Hazleton, RichardMarnham, F. J.
Condon. Thomas JosephHealy, Timothy MichaelMassie, J.
Cooper, G. J.Helme, Norval WatsonMeagher, Michael
Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,EGrinst'dHemmerde, Edward GeorgeMeehan, Patrick A.
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Henry, Charles S.Menzies, Walter
Cotton, Sir H. J. S.Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)Micklem, Nathaniel
Cowan, W. H.Hobart, Sir RobertMolteno, Percy Alport
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)Hobhouse, Charles E. H.Mond, A.
Crean, EugeneHogan, MichaelMoney, L. G. Chiozza
Cremer, Sir William RandalHolland, Sir William HenryMontagu, E. S.
Crombie, John WilliamHolt, Richard DurningMontgomery, H. G.
Crooks, WilliamHope, W.Bateman(Somerset,NMooney, J. J.
Crossley, William J.Horniman, Emslie JohnMorgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)
Cullinan, J.Howard, Hon. GeoffreyMorgan, J.Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 312; Noes, 75. (Division List No. 321.)

Morse, L. L.Richardson, A.Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Morton, Alpheus CleophasRickett, J. ComptonSutherland, J. E.
Murnaghan, GeorgeRoberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Murphy, JohnRoberts, G. H. (Norwich)Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Myer, HoratioRoberts, John H. (Denbighs.)Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)
Nannetti, Joseph P.Robertson, SirGScott(Bradf'rdTomkinson, James
Napier, T. B.Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)Toulmin, George
Newnes, F. (Notts. Bassetlaw)Robinson, S.Verney, F. W.
Nicholson, CharlesN. (Doncast'rRobson, Sir William SnowdonWalker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Nolan, JosephRoche, Augustine (Cork)Walters, John Tudor
Norton, Capt. Cecil WilliamRoche, John (Galway, East)Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
O'Brien,Kendal(TipperaryMid)Roe, Sir ThomasWard, John(Stoke-upon-Trent)
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)Rogers, F. E. NewmanWardle, George J.
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)Rowlands, J.Wason, Rt. Hn.E(Clackmann'n
O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)Runciman, WalterWason, JohnCathcart(Orkney)
O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)Russell, T. W.Waterlow, D. S.
O'Grady, J.Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)Watt, Henry A.
O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N)Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)Weir, James Galloway
O'Malley. WilliamSamuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)Whitbread, Howard
O'Shaughnessy, P. J.Scarisbrick, T. T. L.White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
O'Shee, James JohnSchwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Parker, James (Halifax)Scott, A.H.(Ashton-und.-Lyne)White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Partington, OswaldSears, J. E.Whitehead, Rowland
Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)Seaverns, J. H.Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
Pearce, William (Limehouse)Seddon, J.Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)Seely, Major J. B.Wiles, Thomas
Pearson,W.H.M. (Suffolk, Eye)Shackleton, David JamesWilkie, Alexander
Philipps,Col. Ivor(S'thampton)Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Pickersgill, Edward HareSheehan, Daniel DanielWilliamson, A.
Pirie, Duncan V.Sherwell, Arthur JamesWills, Arthur Walters
Power, Patrick JosephShipman, Dr. John G.Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Price, C. E. (Edinburgh,Central)Sileock, Thomas BallWilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Price, RobertJohn(Norfolk, E.)Simon, John AllsebrookWilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.)Smeaton, Donald MackenzieWilson, J.W.(Worcestersh. N)
Radford,G. H.Snowden, P.Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Rainy, A. RollandSpicer, Sir AlbertWinfrey, R.
Raphael, Herbert H.Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro')Steadman, W. C.
Redmond, William (Clare)Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)TELLERS FOR THE AYES—MR.
Rendall, AthelstanStrachey, Sir EdwardWhiteley and Mr. J. A.
Richards,T. F (Wolverh'mpt'n)Straus, B. S. (Mile End)Pease.
Acland-Hood, RtHnSirAlex.F.Faber, George Denison (York)Randles, Sir John Scurrah
Anson. Sir William ReynellForster, Henry WilliamRatcliff, Major R. F.
Arkwright, John StanhopeGardner, Ernest (Berks, East)Rawlinson, John FrederickPeel
Ashley, W. W.Gretton, JohnRemnant, James Farquharson
Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt.Hon.SirH.Harrison-Broadley, H. B.Roberts, S.(Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Balcarres, LordHay, Hon. Claude GeorgeRonaldshay, Earl of
Balfour. Rt Hn. A. J. (CityLond.)Hervey, F. W.F. (BurySEdm'dsRutherford, John (Lancashire)
Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeHill. Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Banner. John S. Harmood-Hills, J. W.Smith,F.E.(Liverpool, Walton)
Baring, Capt. Hn.G(WinchesterHouston, Robert PatersonSmith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Barrie, H.T.(Londonderry, N.)Hunt, RowlandStarkey, John R.
Beckett, Hon. GervaseKennaway, Rt.Hon.SirJohn H.Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)
Bowles, G. StewartKenyon-Slaney, R t. Hon. Col. W,Thornton, Percy M.
Brotherton, Edward AllenKeswick. WilliamTurnour, Viscount
Butcher, Samuel HenryKing. SirHenrySeymour(Hull)Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Carlile, E. HildrcdLane-Fox. G. R.Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Cavendish, Rt.Hon.VictorC.W.Liddell. HenryWilliams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)Long, Col.CharlesW(Evesham)Wilson, A.Stanley (York, E.R.)
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin,S.)Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Chamberlain, RtHn.J.A(Wore.Lowe. Sir Francis WilliamWortley.Rt. Hon. C. B.Stuart-
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. AlfredYounger, George
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)Magnus, Sir Philip
Courthope, G. Loyd Mason, James F. (Windsor)Tellers foR the Noes.—Vis-
Craig, Charles Curtis(Ant rim,S.)Meysey-Thompson. E. C.count Valentia and Lord
Craik, Sir HenryMoore, WilliamEdmuud Talbot.
Dalrymple, ViscountMorpeth. Viscount;
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-Nield, Herbert

Clause 13:—

Amendment made—

"In page 6, line 18, at end, to add the words '(2) The annuity payable in respect of an advance made in pursuance of this section shall, in accordance with regulations made by the Treasury, be consolidated and made payable with the purchase annuity payable in respect

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)Crooks, WilliamHerbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)
Acland, Francis DykeCrossley, William J.Hobart, Sir Robert
Adkins, W. Ryland D.Cullinan, J.Hobhouse, Charles E. H.
Agnew, George WilliamCurran, Peter FrancisHogan, Michael
Ainsworth, John StirlingDalziel, James HenryHolland, Sir William Henry
Alden, PercyDavies, Ellis William (Eifion)Holt, Richard Durning
Allen, A.Acland (Christchurch)Davies, Timothy (Fulham)Horniman, Emslie John
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)Delany, WilliamHoward, Hon. Geoffrey
Ambrose, RobertDevlin, JosephHudson, Walter
Armitage, R.Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)Hyde, Clarendon
Asquith,Rt.Hn. Herbert HenryDewar Sir J. A. (Inverness-sh.)Illingworth, Percy H.
Astbury, John MeirDickinson,W.H. (St. Pancras,NJackson, R. S.
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)Dobson, Thomas W.Jacoby, Sir James Alfred
Baker,Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)Donelan, Captain A.Jones, Leif (Appleby)
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)Duffy, William J.Jones, William (Carnarvonshire
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)Duncan,C. (Barrow-in-Furness)Joyce, Michael
Barker, JohnDunn, A. Edward (Camborne)Kearley, Hudson E.
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)Kelley, George D.
Barnard, E. B.Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)Kennedy, Vincent Paul
Barnes, G. N.Elibank, Master ofKettle, Thomas Michael
Barran, Rowland HirstErskine, David C.Kilbride, Denis
Beauchamp, E.Farrell, James PatrickKing, Alfred John (Knutsford)
Beck, A. CecilFerens, T. R,Laidlaw, Robert
Bellairs, CarlyonField, WilliamLambert, George
Berridge, T. H. D.Fiennes, Hon. EustaceLamont, Norman
Black, Arthur W.Findlay, AlexanderLardner, James Carrige Rushe
Boland, JohnFlavin, Michael JosephLaw, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)
Boulton, A. C. F.Flynn, James ChristopherLayland-Barratt, Francis
Bowerman, C. W.Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir WalterLehmann, R. C.
Branch, JamesFuller, John Michael F.Levy, Sir Maurice
Brigg, JohnFullerton, HughLewis, John Herbert
Bright, J. A.Gibb, James (Harrow)Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David
Brodie, H. C.Gilhooly, JamesLough, Thomas
Buckmaster, Stanley O.Gill, A. H.Lundon, W.
Burke, E. Haviland-Gladstone,Rt.Hn.Herbert JohnLupton, Arnold
Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnGlendinning, R. G.Luttrell, Hugh Fownes
Burnyeat, W. J. D.Goddard, Daniel FordLyell, Charles Henry
Byles, William PollardGrant, CorrieMacdonald, J. R. (Leicester)
Carr-Gomm, H. W.Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)Macdonald, J. M. (FalkirkB'ghs)
Causton,Rt. Hn. RichardKnightGreenwood, Hamar (York)Mackarness, Frederic C.
Cheetham, John FrederickGrey, Rt. Hon. Sir EdwardMaclean, Donald
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.Griffith, Ellis J.Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.Gwynn, Stephen LuciusMacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Clancy, John JosephHaldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.MacVeagh,Jeremiah (Down,S.)
Cleland, J. W.Halpin, J.MacVeigh.Charles (Donegal,E.)
Clough, WilliamHammond, JohnM'Callum, John M.
Clynes, J. R.Harcourt, Rt. Hon. LewisM'Kean, John
Cobbold, Felix ThornleyHardy, George A. (Suffolk)M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Hart-Davis, T.M'Killop, W.
Collins,Sir.Wm.J.(S.Pancras,WHarvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)
Condon, Thomas JosephHarwood, GeorgeM'Micking, Major G.
Cooper, G. J.Haworth, Arthur A.Maddison, Frederick
Corbett,C.H.(Sussex, E. Gr'st'dHayden, John PatrickMallet, Charles E.
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Hazleton, RichardManfield, Harry (Northants)
Cowan, W. H.Healy, Timothy MichaelMarkham, Arthur Basil
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)Hedges, A. PagetMarks,G.Croydon(Launceston)
Crean, EugeneHelme, Norval WatsonMarnham, F. J.
Cremer, Sir William RandalHemmerde, Edward GeorgeMassie, J.
Crombie, John WilliamHenry, Charles S.Meagher, Michael

of the purchase money of the parcel of land.' "—( Mr. Cherry.)

Question put, "That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 315; Noes, 71, (Division List, No. 322).

Meehan, Patrick A.Radford, G. H.Strachey, Sir Edward
Menzies, WalterRainy, A. RollandStraus, B. S. (Mile End)
Micklem, NathanielRaphael, Herbert H.Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Molteno, Percy AlportRea, Walter Russell (ScarboroSutherland, J. B.
Mond, A.Redmond, John E. (Waterford)Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Money, L. G. ChiozzaRedmond, William (Clare)Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Montagu, E. S.Rendall, AthelstanThomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Montgomery, H. G.Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'nThompson, J. W.H.(Somsrset,E
Mooney, J. J.Richardson, A.Tomkinson, James
Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)Rickett, J. ComptonToulmin, George
Morgan, J.Lloyd(Carmarthen)Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)Verney, F. W.
Morrell, PhilipRoberts, G. H. (Norwich)Waldron, Laureace Ambrose
Morse, L. L.Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Morton, Alpheus CleophasRobertson,SirG.Scott(Bradf'rdWalters, John Tudor
Murnaglian, GeorgeRobertson, J. M. (Tyneside)Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Murphy, JohnRobinson, S.Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent
Myer, HoratioRoche, Augustine (Cork)Wardle, George J.
Nannetti, Joseph P.Roche, John (Galway, East)Wason,RtHnE.(Clackmannan)
Napier, T. B.Roe, Sir ThomasWason,JohnCathcart (Orkney)
Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)Rogers, F. E. NewmanWaterlow, D. S.
Nicholson,CharlesN.(Doncast'rRowlands, J.Watt, Henry A.
Nolan, JosephRunciman, WalterWeir, James Galloway
Norton, Capt. Cecil WilliamRussell. T. W.Whitbread, Howard
O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid.Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire.)
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)Samuel. Herbert L. (Cleveland)White, Luke (York, E. R.)
O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)Samuel. S. M. (Whitechapel)White, Patrick (Meath, North
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)Scarisbrick, T. T. L.Whitehead, Rowland
O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)Whitley, John Henry (Halifax
O'Donnell. T. (Kerry, W.)Scott,A.H.(Ashton under LyneWhittaker, Sir Thornas Palmer
O'Grady. J.Sears, J. E.Wiles, Thomas
O'Kelly, James(Roscommon,N.Seaverns, J. H.Wilkie, Alexander
O'Malley, WilliamSeddon. J.Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
O'Shaughnessy, P. J,Seely,.Major J. B.Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
O'Shee, James JohnShackleton, David JamesWilliamson, A.
Parker, James (Halifax.)Shaw, Charles E Iw. (Stafford)Wills, Arthur Walters
Partington, OswaldShaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.Wilson, Henry J.(York, W.R.)
Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)Sheehan, Daniel DanielWilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Pearson, SirW.D. (Colchester)Sherwell, Arthur JamesWilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Pearson, W. H. M. (S uff olk,Eye)Shipman, Dr. John G.Wilson,J. W. (Worcesterh. N.)
Philipps,Col.Ivor(S'thampton)Silcock, Thomas BallWilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)Simon, John AllsebrookWinfrey, R.
Pickersgill, Edward HareSmeaton, Donald MackenzieWood, T. M'Kinnon
Pirie, Duncan V.Snowden, P.Young, Samuel
Power, Patrick JosephSpicer, Sir Albert
Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh,Central)Stanley,Hn.A.Lyulph(Chesh.)Tellers for the Ayes—Mr
Price.RobertJohn(Norfolk,E.)Steadman, W. C.Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Priestley.W.E. B. (Bradford,E.)Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)Pease.
Anson, Sir William ReyneilCraig,CharlesCurtis(Antrim,S.)Magnus, Sir Philip
Arkwright, John StanhopeCraik, Sir HenryMason, James F. (Windsor)
Ashley, W. W.Dalrymple, ViscountMeysey-Thompson, E. C.
Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt.Hon.SirH.Douglas. Rt. Hon A. Akers-Moore, William
Balcarres, LordFaber, George Danison (York)Morpeth, Viscount
Balfour,RtHn.A.J.(CityLond.)Harrison-Broadkley, H. B.Nield, Herbert
Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeHay. Hon. Claude GeorgeO'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Banner, John S. Harmood-Hervey.F.W.F (BuryS.Edm'dsRandles, Sir John Scurrah
Baring,Capt. Hn. G(Winchester)Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)Ratcliff, Major R. F.
Barrie, H, T. (Londonderry.N.)Hills, J. W.Rawlinson.JohnFrederickPeel