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Questions In The House

Volume 181: debated on Thursday 22 August 1907

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Naval Programme

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the resolution as to the desirability of resuming the consideration of the question of the growing expenditure on armaments carried at The Hague Conference, and in view of his announcement as to the additional battleship as part of this year's shipbuilding programme, he now proposes to proceed with the construction of such ship.

I am afraid I can add nothing to the full statements which have already been made.

May I ask the hon. Gentleman if he considers it due to the House to answer this Question before Parliament rises?

If the hon. Gentleman has studied the speeches of the Secretary to the Admiralty in introducing the Navy Estimates and on Vote 8 he would have found there a clear answer.

If the Question is not answered before Parliament rises will some notification be made in the Press?

The Pacific Cable

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Admiralty was at any time consulted with regard to the route to be followed by the Pacific cable; and, if so, whether he will lay upon the Table of the House the correspondence exchanged on the subject.

The Admiralty were consulted as to the route. The correspondence is voluminous and deals with subjects that it would be unwise to divulge.

The Coastguard

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the changes which are being made in thepersonnel of the coastguard service, he will be prepared to grant a Return giving the names of the stations from which coastguardsmen have been withdrawn.

I will gladly give this information, but I think an unstarred Question would be more convenient than a Return.

Royal Commission On Indian Decentralisation

*

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is now in a position to give the terms of reference to the Royal Commission on Decentralisation and to circulate the correspondence with the Viceroy in Council as to the government of the provinces and as to the proposed formation of a Council of Notables.

Papers relating to the formation of Advisory Councils and kindred matters will, I hope, be in the bands of hon. Members by Monday evening. The King has been pleased to approve the appointment of a Royal Commission to inquire into the relations now existing, for financial and administrative purposes, between the supreme Government and the various Provincial Governments in India, and between the Provincial Governments and the authorities subordinate to them; and to report whether by measures of decentralisation or otherwise those relations can he simplified and improved, and the system of government better adapted to meet the requirements and promote the welfare of the different provinces, and, without impairing its strength and unity, to bring the executive power into closer touch with local conditions.

*

Indian Military Charges

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I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether any arrangement has been come to for the inquiry as to the allocation of military charges between the India Office and the War Office.

It has been arranged to refer this question to a Committee, constituted as follows:—Chairman, The right hon. Sir R. Romer, G.C.B.; Members, Lord Welby, G.C.B.; The right hon. Gerald Balfour; and, representing the War Office, General Sir W. G. Nicholson, K.C.B., and Sir G. Fleetwood Wilson, K.C.B.; and representing the India Office, Sir John Edge K.C., and Lieutenant-General Sir Beauchamp Duff, K.C.B., K.C.V.O. It is expected that the Committee will commence its sittings this autumn.

asked whether another Office much concerned in this matter—the Treasury—might not have a representative on the Committee.

I have always found that the Treasury is extremely capable of taking care of itself.

Calcutta Libel Action

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to the dissatisfaction expressed in Calcutta at the action of the Lieutenant-Governor in secretly maintaining with public funds a private action for libel instituted by certain police officers against the IndianDaily News; and whether, for the future guidance of Governors and Lieutenant-Governors in India, he will issue general instructions that where accusations are made against the police or other Government servants the Government shall itself proceed against the accusers, or shall itself take other public measures to investigate the accusation, but that in no case shall the money of the Indian taxpayer be employed for the secret maintenance of private libel actions.

My attention has been drawn to the published reports of the case referred to. As I have already explained in previous Answers, the Government of Bengal acted in accordance with the ordinary rules, and I am not aware that there was any special secrecy in the matter. The question whether Government should allow its officers to take action in vindication of their official conduct, or should adopt the much more formidable course of taking action itself, must be decided on a consideration of all the circumstances of each case as it arises, and I do not propose to lay down any general rule. I may remind my hon. friend that the cost falls on the taxpayer whichever course is adopted.

Venezuelan Rubber Dispute

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information with regard to the reports from Georgetown, on the Venezuelan frontier, in regard to the alleged taking of rubber in British territory by Venezuelans: and whether a British force entered. Venezuelan territory and demanded the surrender of 40,000 lbs. of rubber.

My right hon. friend has requested me to answer this Question. I can only refer to the reply which I made yesterday to the hon. Members for Mid. Armagh and West Lanarkshire, to the effect that the Governor is making inquiries and will send home a full report.

Has the report been asked for by cable or post?

By cable. I do not think there is any reason to assign undue importance to the incident.

Asiatic Registration Act In The Transvaal

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the fact that General Botha has not seen his way to the carrying out of his promise to modify the regulations and soften the rigour of the Asiatic Registration Act, the Secretary of State will suggest that compensation be paid, out of the proceeds of the guaranteed loan, to those Indian merchants who may be willing to retire from the Transvaal rather than undergo the humiliations imposed by the Act.

The hon. Member will see by reference to page 9 of Paper 65 printed by order of the House of Lords that he does not quite correctly describe the attitude of General Botha. The Secretary of State has no official intimation that any Indian merchants propose to retire from the Transvaal, and in any case does not see his way to make the desired suggestion in view of the fact that he has already stated that he does not regard the matter of identification by finger prints as objectionable in itself and has not felt able to press the Transvaal Ministers further to reconsider their decision.

asked whether the Government had washed their hands of all responsibility in this matter and considered the effect which these regulations were likely to have on the loyal feeling of our subjects in India.

said that the Government were far from washing their hands of this question. The Government would do what they could from time to time with the resources at their disposal.

Would whites submit to the finger test?

Mortality Among Mine Labourers In The Transvaal

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what was the rate of mortality among the Kaffirs and among the Chinese, respectively, for the first six months of this year.

For the first three months of the year the average rate of mortality per 1,000 per annum was—Kaffirs, 31·661; Chinese, 16·375. The figure for whites was 20·051. Official figures for a later period are not available for Kaffirs; the average mortality for Chinese for the first six months of this year is 15·657. But in comparing the Mortality Returns of Chinese with Kaffirs some regard must be paid to the fact that a certain number of Chinese are repatriated as physically incapable. I notice that in the Report of the Superintendent of Foreign Labour for 1905–6 (page 32 of Cd. 3,338) it is stated that for that year those repatriated as physically incapable were 1,840 as compared with a total number of deaths, 935.

Is any record kept in the Kaffir Return of the number of natives from British Central Africa?

A careful record is kept of natives from British Central Africa. Whether a record is kept of Kaffirs who return to private life in their kraals, I do not think that is done, because naturally a Kaffir having taken his discharge goes back to his home. In regard to a remark I overheard to the effect that we do not care what happens to the Kaffirs, that is a gross and unfounded accusation.

Are any pains take to prevent Kaffirs who are unfit to work in the mines?

Yes, there are all sorts of precautions taken for the protection of the Kaffirs in the mines, and they have been steadily elaborated from month to month as experience has shown to be necessary.

For this reason numbers of Chinese who would have died had they served their full indentures go home before the time expires and die on board ship. Often they only serve six or twelve months.

Crimes By Chinese Coolies In South Africa

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I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will state how many of the total number of crimes committed in South Africa by Chinese coolies up to 31st July, 1907, were technical crimes and actually breaches of the Labour Ordinance, and how many were crimes in the usual acceptation of the term; how the record of Chinese coolies in this behalf, and subject to this explanation, compares with the record of other than Chinese inhabitants of South Africa for the same period; and what is the figure per mille of crime to population in either case.

Information as to the crimes committed by Chinese coolies in the Transvaal is only available up to 31st January, 1907. The crimes are classified in the monthly Returns which have been presented to Parliament, and to which I would refer the hon. Member. No classification of crimes is kept by the Transvaal Prisons Department, but a classification of sentences has been received, showing the number of Europeans, natives, Indians, and Chinese confined in Transvaal prisons on 30th June, 1906, and their sentences. Taking all sentences, the proportion to population per 1,000 shows the Chinese proportion to be about six times that of other races; but taking serious crimes—i.e., sentences of six months and over—the proportion is for European males, 3·35 per 1,000; for Chinese males, 4·36 per 1,000.

*

Do these figures include technical offences against the British Labour Ordinance?

Of course they include offences against the Labour Ordinance if they are punished by imprisonment.

Do I understand that the Return does not give the offences for which Chinamen are sentenced? In view of the fact that the records presented to this House contained an exact statement of the offences, misdemeanours or crimes committed, will the right hon. Gentleman see if he can get further Returns from the Transvaal to coincide with them?

said the Returns published by the Government in the Transvaal might possibly not be so full and elaborate as the Returns prepared by the Crown Colony officials under home instructions and in response to pressing inquiries in the House of Commons. He would he glad to suggest to the Secretary of State the propriety of making a request to the Transvaal Government with regard to continuing the records in question, but such requests ought to be limited. They ought not to send requests for information day by day.

The right hon. Gentleman has given no information as to crime among the British Indian subjects.

Am I mistaken in supposing that the Transvaal is a self-governing Colony?

I do not want to press the right hon. Gentleman unduly, but will he request the Transvaal Government to differentiate between actual crime and offences against the Labour Ordinances and regulations.

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Repatriation Of Chinese From The Transvaal

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can now state the number of Chinese coolies working in the Transvaal gold mines whose contracts have already expired, and on what date it is intended to send them back to China, and in what ship.

Will the right hon. Gentleman be able to lay it before the House rises?

The Colonies And The Sugar Convention

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will cause to be published the resolutions relative to the attitude of His Majesty's Government with regard to the Sugar Convention which have been received from bodies in the Colonies since the publication of Cd. 3565 of 1907, together with the covering despatches forwarding these resolutions.

There will probably be more resolutions with relative correspondence and the Secretary of State is unwilling to incur the expense of printing in instalments. I shall be happy to supply the hon. Member with a list of the resolutions if he desires it.

May I ask if after a lapse of two or three months the resolutions received will be printed together with the dispatches?

Discharged Transvaal Civil Servants

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether other Government Departments besides the Colonial Office will co-operate in finding places for those civil servants who have been discharged from the Transvaal during the last four months, especially for those who have been discharged expressly because they were not eligble for pensions in case of dismissal.

The Secretary of State does not think that the probability of other Departments in the Home Service being able to absorb any of the officials in question is sufficient to justify application to those Departments except in very special cases, which would, of course, be considered on their merits as they occur.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House any idea of the number discharged who have not yet been able to obtain fresh positions?

Transvaal Indentured Labour Bill

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can state when he will be in a position to inform the House of the details of the indentured labour legislation recently introduced in the Transvaal Parliament.

The Secretary of State has telegraphed for the details and I hope to be able to supply the information before the House arises.

West Indian Imports To Venezuela

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will lay Papers to show the progress of negotiations with the Venezuelan Government, with a view to securing the removal of the surtax of 30 per cent, on imports from the West Indian islands.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS
(Sir EDWARD GREY, Northumberland, Berwick)

His Majesty's Minister has not relaxed his efforts to induce the Venezuelan Government to remit the surtax, but hitherto without success. I do not think that any useful purpose would be served by laying Papers on the subject.

Hague Conference Papers

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if Papers will shortly be laid dealing with the Hague Conference.

Papers will be laid in due course, when the Conference has terminated its labours.

Turkish Raids Into Persian Territory

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any official information with reference to the advance of Turkish troops into Persian territory; and whether any order for their recall has been given.

I beg to refer the hon. Member to the Answer given yesterday to the hon. Member for Mid. Armagh.

The Answer I gave yesterday was to the effect that it had, and that further representations were being made by His Majesty's Ambassador.

Macedonian Murders

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if the Government will have prepared and published statistics of the number of deaths and acts of violence perpetrated in Macedonia from the year 1899 to 1906, with particulars as to the number and nationality of the bands by which these acts were. committed.

I must refer the hon. Member to the Answer given to the Question asked by the hon. Member for Ripon on the 22nd April last,f in which I stated that no complete records of these occurrences were available previous to December, 1905, and furnished statistics of the deaths by violence which had occurred from that month up to the end of February of the current year.

Bombardment Of Casa Blanca

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if the British Government secured any guarantee of compensation for damage to the property of British subjects before the bombardment and occupation of Casa Blanca took place; and whether the interests of British traders were in any way protected.

The hon. Member must recognise from the circumstances in which the bombardment of Casa Blanca took place that nobody could have any opportunity of securing before hand any guarantee of the nature to which he refers. I understand that all the protection that was possible under the circumstances has been afforded by the French and Spanish forces impartially to the interests of all Europeans, irrespective of nationality.

† See (4) Debates, clxxii., 1393.

Morocco-International Police Force

I beg to ask the secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what progress has been made in the creation of an international police force in the coast towns of Morocco.

The position is regards the police force contemplated by the Algeciras Act is as follows—The Inspector-General and the French and Spanish instructors have been selected and their appointments have been approved by the Sultan. The regulations provided for under Article 4 of the Algeciras Act have been drawn up and agreed to by the foreign Powers, and are at present awaiting the Sultan's approval.

Are we to understand that until this police force is organised the interests of British subjects will be entrusted to the chance protection of French or Spanish warships?

The French and Spaniards are providing for the protection of the ports until the police force contemplated can be called into being.

Girls' Schools At Khartoum

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is yet in a position to give the House any information as to the schools for girls at Khartoum, appropriation of land there by the Soudan Government, and the possible application of Wakf property to purposes of education.

As this Answer is a very long one, I hope the hon. Member will allow me to circulate it with the Votes.

Egyptian Civil Service

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can now state the constitution of the board for selecting candidates for the Egyptian Civil Service, and give details as to the candidates selected.

The report asked for on this subject has not yet been received from His Majesty's Acting Agent and Consul-General at Cairo.

Egyptian Factory Legislation

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has yet any information as to the practicability of obtaining from the Egyptian Court of Appeal power to apply Egyptian factory legislation to Europeans within the limits of police law.

The report asked for on this subject has not yet been received from His Majesty's Acting Agent and Consul-General at Cairo.

Egyptian Ministry Of Public Instruction —British Officials And The Arabic Language

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can now state what knowledge of Arabic is required of British officials under the Egyptian Ministry of Public Instruction and give the statistics of the examination; and can he also give any information as to the rate of pension and salaries payable to native and British Judges respectively, and as to the inspectors appointed in the Slave Trade Repression Department in Egypt.

Newfoundland Fisheries Dispute

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether amodus vivendi has been proposed to the United States in regard to the Newfoundland fisheries by this Government; and, if so, will he state what are the terms of themodus vivendi and if they have had the approval of the Newfoundland Government.

Negotiations are still proceeding, but in their present stage His Majesty's Government are unable to give any information beyond that which has been already given in reply to previous Questions on the subject.

Will the terms of themodus vivendi be submitted to the Newfoundland Government?

Negotiations are passing with the Newfoundland and United States Governments at the present time.

British Commercial Agents Abroad

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether, in the event of giving effect to the recommendations of the Report of Sir Eldon Gorst and Mr. Llewellyn Smith with respect to commercial agents abroad, he will consider the advisability of including in the staff an official competent to inquire into labour conditions in the great manufacturing countries on the lines of the Labour Department of the Board of Trade.

I find that the object aimed at by my hon. friend is already attained. I understand that the staff of the Labour Department of the Board of Trade already includes expert investigators competent to carry out inquiries of the nature suggested, and that inquiries are at present being made by them with regard to labour conditions in Germany and France. Such investigations are carried out in co-operation with His Majesty's representatives abroad.

The Bahr-El Ghazel

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is now able to state whether Meridi has been evacuated; and, if so, on what date.

His Majesty's Agent and Consul-General at Cairo reported on 21st June last that all posts in the Bahr-el-Ghazal held by Congolese troops were evacuated by the 3rd of that month.

The Truck Acts

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to cases in which employers of labour are establishing the custom of making weekly deductions from workers' wages to meet the cost of insurance against the Workmen's Compensation Act; and whether, in view of the provisions of the Truck Act and of the Workmen's Compensation Act respecting contracting-out schemes, he proposes to take any action in the matter.

My attention has been called to some cases in which deductions have been made for the purpose mentioned in the Question. As the hon. Member is aware, a Committee is now engaged in inquiring into the working of the Truck Acts, and I am informed that they have taken evidence on this point. I expect to receive their Report before long, and will then give the matter my careful consideration.

Hoxton Crippled Girls Factory

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, with reference to the employment of crippled girls at Hoxton to work normal factory hours for 3s. to 5s. a week, whether he proposes to take any steps to prevent the precedent of working cripples for full factory hours; whether he can describe the physical condition of the girls who have been certified by the certifying surgeon to work such hours; whether he will take any action upon the certificate granted by a certifying surgeon in this case; and whether he will inform the House of the contents of any reports made by the lady factory inspectors in this particular case.

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The question of the fitness of these workers to continue work for the ordinary factory hours is one for the certifying surgeon, who has full power either to refuse a certificate or to qualify his certificate by conditions. In two cases he has certified girls as fit for half-time employment only, and has also advised that a woman should work half-time. As regards the present condition of the workers, 1 am informed that the disease which caused the crippling is either healed or quiescent. I may add that I am informed that arrangements have been made for the certifying surgeon to examine all the workers once a fortnight. When I have received the additional reports for which I have called I will consider whether any further action is necessary. An regards the last paragraph of the Question, the reports of inspectors are invariably treated as confidential, but should, of course, be prepared to consider any request for information that may be made to me.

Is it not the case that these crippled girls work in an underground factory?

Yes, but it is not against the Factory Acts. Some defects have been discovered, and I hope other arrangements will be made. I am glad my hon. friend has called attention to the matter.

asked if it was not a very prevalent custom for people interested in public institutions to have children to work for the purpose of competing with the children of parents who were endeavouring to bring them up in an honest way, and if public subscriptions were not solicited for that purpose.

replied he was aware that such cases existed, and if any could be brought to his knowledge he would have them fully inquired into.

Metropolitan Police

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether a military man has been appointed recently to the position of chief constable of the Metropolitan police; whether the gentleman appointed has had any previous experience of police work; and whether, before making this appointment, any consideration was given to the advisability of promoting to the position one of the present superintendents or appointing a person trained in the police work of a large city.

Yes, Sir. Colonel Edwards was appointed chief constable in 1906. He had had previous police experience as a divisional commandant of South African Constabulary, besides having held several appointments of great responsibility in the course of his military career. Before any appointment of the kind is made the question is thoroughly considered in all its bearings.

Motor Bus Casualties

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the inconvenience caused to traffic in the City of London through the breakdown of a motor omnibus in Fleet Street at about 11 o'clock p.m. on Thursday last, such derelict omnibus not being removed until after dinner-time on the following day, a period of over twelve hours; and, seeing that this is an example of the manner in which the companies have made arrangements for the removal of such obstructions to traffic, whether the police will be instructed to report instances in which broken-down motor omnibuses are allowed to obstruct the roadway for prolonged and unreasonable periods, with a view to some action being taken against the companies concerned in order that such inconvenience to traffic may be minimised, particularly in such narrow and congested thoroughfares as Fleet Street and others within the City boundary.

I am informed that the motor omnibus in question broke down at 12.15 a.m., the rear-axle being fractured; that the employees of the London Road Car Company began repairs at 10.30 a.m. and that the omnibus was removed at 2 p.m. All such cases are observed and reported on by the police; and proceedings have been successfully instituted in case of unreasonable delay in removing the cause of obstruction.

South Western Police Court—Case Of Albert Smith

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to a case tried before the magistrate sitting at the South-Western Court on Friday, 9th August, in which the prisoner, Albert Smith, charged with disorderly behaviour, alleged that the constable concerned in the case was drinking outside a public-house, and struck him without any provocation; whether the magistrate, despite the fact that the prisoner's statement was supported by the evidence of two witnesses, declined to accept such evidence; and whether, in justice to all concerned, he will cause inquiry to be made into the matter.

I have made full inquiries into this case, and I am satisfied that the conviction was right and that there was no ground for the allegations which were made against the police.

Clauchland Point, Arran

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the urgency of establishing a lighted buoy or beacon on the southern extremity of Clauchland Point in the Island of Arran; and whether he will recommend to the Northern Lights Commissioners that they should include the cost of its erection in their Estimates for 1908–9.

The importance of establishing such a light hiss been more than once urged upon the Board of Trade, and my right hon. friend will be happy to communicate with the Commissioners of Northern Lighthouses as the hon. Member suggests.

Brake Accidents On Railways

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he can give the number of fatal and non-fatal acccidents during the three years, 1904–5–6, arising from the use of a brake-stick by the workman in pinning down the brake, and from the pressure of the workman's body upon the brake for the same purpose; and if he is able to give the number occurring on private sidings and on railway companies' lines respectively.

No separate record has been kept of such accidents for 1904 and 1905, but in 1906 no fatal and fifty-three non-fatal accidents to railway servants whilst using a brake-stick were reported to the Board of Trade. I have no information as to the number of these due to the pressure of the man's body on the brake-stick or as to the number of accidents in private sidings to persons other than the servants of a railway company.

Excessive Working Hours

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that eight dining-car attendants signed on duty at Euston station on Friday, 9th August, at 9 a.m. and signed off at 9 p.m. on Saturday, 10th August, working in all some thirty-six hours, and that one of these attendants was a youth sixteen years of age; whether these employees were paid for overtime; and, if so, at what rate; and whether, under these circumstances, he will introduce some Amendment to the Railway Regulations (Hours of Labour) Act, 1893, to prevent a recurrence of such matters in future.

The Board of Trade will communicate with the railway company on the subject, and I will inform the hon. Member of the result.

Will the Board of Trade take into consideration the hours worked by the staff employed in this House—and in particular by the female attendants in the tea-room, and make representations to the authorities concerned?

This department does not come under the supervision of the Board of Trade.

Diphtheria Anti-Toxin

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is in a position to make any statement with reference to the supply of diphtheria anti-toxin on the part of local authorities for the treatment of those who are not in a position to buy it themselves; and whether he will draw the attention of -the local authorities to the power given them under Section 133 of the Public Health Act, 1875, 38 and 39 Vic., c. 55, which enables them to provide medicine and medical assistance to the poor of their districts.

*

I am advised that the enactment to which my hon. friend refers, and a similar enactment in the Public Health (London) Act, 1891, enable sanitary authorities, with the sanction of the Local Government Board, to provide a temporary supply of diphtheria antitoxin for the poorer inhabitants of their districts, and medical assistance in connection therewith. I propose to issue a general Order giving sanction to such provision by sanitary authorities subject to suitable conditions. The Order is in preparation.

The Aged And Deserving Poor In Workhouses

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board respecting the circular issued by his Department in August, 1900, stating that aged deserving persons should not be urged to enter the workhouse at all, but should be relieved by having adequate outdoor relief granted to them, whether his information shows that guardians act upon the circular; and whether pending other promised provision for the aged poor, he will consider the issue of a further circular to guardians suggesting reasonable outdoor assistance sufficient to meet the costs of shelter and food in these cases.

*

The view expressed in the circular was, I think, somewhat more restricted than that stated in the Question. My information tends to show that action has been taken as the result of it. I think that any question of issuing any further circular on the subject to which my hon. friend refers should be deferred pending the Report of the Royal Commission on the Poor Law.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware I have quoted his exact words from the circular?

*

I shall be pleased to hand the hon. Member a copy of the original circular, which I think he will find bears out my interpretation.

Metropolitan Poor Fund Receivership

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether the Receivership of the Metropolitan Poor Fund is a poor law appointment, and comes under the rule as to compulsory retirement at sixty-five years of age; and, if so, whether there are any reasons while the rule is suspended in the case of the present Receiver.

*

There is no rule requiring the Receiver to retire at the age of sixty-five.

*

Cost Of Poor Law Administration

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if he will state what portion of the £14,000,000 spent on Poor Law administration last year was devoted to the payment of salaries of officials.

The sum which was expended in the year ended at Lady-Day, 1906, in respect of the salaries, superannuation allowances, and rations of the officers and servants of the several Poor Law Unions, and which was included in the £14,218,598 expended in respect of the relief of the poor in that year, was —2,478,660.

Southend Medical Officer

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is in a position to state the reasons why the medical officer of health of Southend has resigned his appointment; whether this resignation is in any way due to the desire of the Corporation of Southend to reduce the salary attached to this appointment; whether any reduction of salary has been sanctioned by the Local Government Board; whether the medical officer of this town has to devote the whole of his time to the duties of his office; and, if so, will the Local Government Board require such a salary being paid as will secure the appointment of a qualified and competent official.

I do not understand that this officer resigned his appointment. The period for which he was appointed expired on the 18th instant, and hence it was necessary that the appointment should be renewed or a fresh appointment made. No sanction on my part has been given to a reduction in the salary, nor had I heard anything on the subject until to-day. I have, however, this morning received a communication from the Town Clerk to the effect that the town council have reappointed the officer for three months at £600 a year, but that they propose to advertise for applications for the post at a salary of £500 a year. I gather that the present officer declined to accept reappointment on these terms. It is intended that the person to be appointed as medical officer of health shall also act as medical superintendent of the hospitals for infectious diseases and as medical officer of the Education Committee. Subject to this, he will be required to devote the whole of his time to his duties as medical officer of health. Whether the proposals of the Town Council are such as I can properly approve is a matter which will receive my consideration.

The London Unemployed

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he will use his influence with the Central Unemployed Body in London to increase the number of labour exchange registries and enlarge the staff of these offices, so as to cope with the distress which arises during the winter months, especially among the casual waterside labourers; and whether he will issue circulars to employers of labour, especially along the riverside, in order that there may be greater knowledge and co-operation in this scheme.

The Unemployed Workmen Act enables the Central Unemployed Body to deal with this matter, and I will bring the suggestion of my hon. friend under their notice. Any circulars of the kind referred to in the last part of the Question should, I think, be issued by them.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of calling a conference of representative officers of the various organisations in order to fix the staff before the coming. winter?

;

Do not the trade unions object to employers of labour employing. the unemployed?

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of establishing more than three workshops for women in London during the coming winter?

Labour Bureaux

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that during the month of July last 3·7 per cent. of the members of the trade unions making returns were described as unemployed; that the total number of situations filled by labour bureaux during the same period in London and the provinces was 2,952, being 28 per cent. of the applications received; that the municipal bureau of Munich alone finds employment for over 4,000 applicants per month, or 60 per cent. of the applications received; and whether, under the circumstances, he would encourage, by every means in his power, the better organisation of these institutions in England, with a view to the assistance of the unemployed.

I am aware of the facts stated in the Question. I shall be ready to consider any suitable suggestions which my hon friend may wish to make for the purpose which he has in view.

asked if employers of labour did not utilise the glut in the labour market to get work performed at starvation rates of wages. [No Answer was returned.]

Will the right hon. Gentleman send a representative to Germany to study the working of the labour bureaux there.

Hampstead Sorting Office

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been drawn to the petitions from the staff of the Hampstead Sorting Office asking for a revision of the duties at that office; and, if not, will he make inquiries, with a view to such action being taken as will allay the present grievance of the men concerned.

I have not received any representation from the staff of the Hampstead Sorting Office respecting their duties, but the matter was discussed between them and their Postmaster. A revision of force is now under consideration, and the hon. Member may rest assured that in reviewing the arrangement of the duties the representations made by the staff will be given due weight.

Montgomeryshire Border School Children

*

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether Montgomeryshire children are to be excluded from the non-provided school upon the Shropshire border at Llanymynech and sent to Llandysilio, in the school of which village, which is upwards of a mile from Llanymynech, there is no room for them; and whether he will represent to the Shropshire authority the desirability of enlarging the Llanymynech School if it is too small, in order to the maintenance of the arrangement whereby the schools of either county take in the children of either county without charge.

I have communicated with both local authorities concerned suggesting a conference before any decisive action is taken, with a view, if possible, of coming to some arrangement whereby the necessity of excluding any large number of children may be avoided.

School Inspectors' Duties

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education, at what date, on whose authority, and for what reason, the paragraph permitting first-class sub-inspectors to perform all the duties hitherto allotted to second inspectors, with the exception of signing reports, was omitted from the form or circular issued to those officers on their promotion.

The paragraph was struck out on 4th January, 1902, by the authority of the Board of Education for the time being, at a time when my hon. friend was Permanent Secretary of that Board. Presumably it was struck out because it was no longer required.

Education Building Grant

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education if the new schools to be erected under the special grant of £100,000 will belong to the Board of Education or to the local education authorities.

The schools in question will belong to the local education authority, out Section 7 of the Regulations makes provision for the repayment of the building grant, in the event of the Board so requiring, if the building is used for purposes other than those of a public elementary school at any time or in any manner which will interfere with the work of a public elementary school, or if the school ceases to be recognised as a public elementary school.

Will the grant be distributed in lumps or doled out as applications come in? Will Wales receive a fixed grant out of it?

Over Peover School

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that on 22nd December, 1905, the governors of Over Peover endowed school passed a resolution in favour of transferring to the estate of the late Sir Philip Mainwaring a plot of land attached to the school which had been held by the governors for the purposes of a school garden since 1874; that the parish council of Over Peover dispute the power of the governors to make this transfer; that the resolution of the governors was only carried by a majority of two, and that of the governors present and voting in the majority, two were members of the Mainwaning family; and whether he proposes to hold a public inquiry into the natter in dispute.

This matter is now engaging the attention of the Board, but I am not in a position to make any statement on the subject.

Mortomley Catholic School

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether he has taken steps to acquaint the managers of the Mortomley Catholic School with the decision of the Board of Education; and what further steps has he taken to compel the local education authority to hand over the salaries due to the teachers.

I have informed the local authority that the requirements of the Board of Education as to the playground of this school have been complied with so far as is at present possible, and a copy of this letter was sent to the managers of the school. I have been informed that the local authority would pay the sums due to the teachers, and I can only suppose that any delay which has occurred in so doing is attributable to the holidays. I do not think any further action on my part will be called for.

Can the right hon. Gentleman confirm the rumour that the money has actually been paid?

I should think it highly probable. I am expecting a telegram on the point.

Abstractor Class Clerks

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state the present number of senior assistant clerks of the abstractor class; and how many members of that grade with twenty years service and upwards have been promoted to the Second Division or other grades since the present Government came into office.

I have no information on the first part of the Question beyond that given in the published Estimates. As regards the second part the Civil Service Commissioners inform me that since the present Government came into office the following promotions have been made of Assistant Clerks (Old Class) with twenty years service and upwards, viz.:—To the Second Division, 16; to other Grades, 12. Total 28.

Treasury Consultative Committee

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, if he is aware that by Order in Council, dated 12th August, 1890, the Commissioners of the Treasury are required to appoint at the beginning of each calendar year four principal officers of Public Departments to serve as a consultative committee upon questions of staff, salary, and organisation; will he say who are the members of this committee for the present year, and also on how many occasions during the last fifteen years the committee has been constituted; and, if there have been any years when it has not been appointed, will he state why the Commissioners of the Treasury have not carried out the definite instructions of the Order in Council.

No occasion has arisen for the services of the Committee in question for several years past, and the Treasury therefore considered it unnecessary to nominate any members.

The Parliamentary Debates Contract

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in renewing the contract for the ensuing session for the reporting and printing of the Parliamentary Debates, the Government will have due regard to the recommendation of the Select Committee which considered the matter that the claims of the existing reportorial staff should not be overlooked in any fresh arrangement which might be made by the Government.

The arrangement made for next session is, in effect, an extension of the existing contract. I read the recommendation of the Select Committee as applying to a new system of reporting of the kind contemplated in their Report.

English Blood Cattle In Argentina

I beg to ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he will say whether the recent practices in connection with the exportation of English blood cattle to Argentina have come under his notice; will he say what new steps have been taken to deal with the spread of tuberculosis in that country owing to these practices; and further, as the tuberculine test has admittedly broken down, can the importation of cattle into this country, possibly consumed with tuberculosis, be effectually guarded against.

The Answer to the first part of my hon. friend's Question is in the affirmative. I understand that in consequence of the malpractices which have been dis- covered, the Argentine Government propose to take over the quarantine station and make it a Government institution, to control the importation and sale of tuberculine, and to increase the penalties for infringements of the Animal Sanitary Law. With regard to the last part of my hon. friend's Question, I may point out that the statutory requirement of slaughter at the ports of all animals imported into this country affords a safeguard against the introduction of tuberculous cattle.

Duke Of York's School

I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works when an announcement will be made as to the disposal of the site of the Duke of York's School.

THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS

I have not yet seen the Report of the Committee on this question, and cannot make any statement until the matter has been further considered.

War Office Buildings In Pall Mall

I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works what rental, if any, is now being paid for the War Office buildings in Pall Mall; and when he can state the policy of the Government in regard to the disposal of the site.

The old War Office buildings in Pall Mall are Crown property, and the ultimate disposal of the site will rest with the Commissioners of Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues, under the direction of the Treasury, and not with my Department. For the portion of the property still hired by my Department from the Office of Woods a rent of £380 15s. per annum is being paid under an unexpired lease.

Scottish Missive System

I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether the Report of the Commission appointed to inquire into the missive system in Scotland will be issued before the end of the Session.

THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND

I have now received the Report. It shall be presented without delay and then sent to the printers.

Anti-Catholic Lectures In Ayrshire

I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether his attention has been called to the peregrinations of an anti-Catholic lecturer calling himself MacDonald; whether he is aware that this man's incitements have been frequently followed by riot and disorder in Irvine and Kilbirnie; whether he has been twice prosecuted in Ayrshire for using language calculated to provoke a breach of the peace; and what steps the police propose to take to put a stop to his conduct?

I understand that the facts are as stated. Cases arising out of the most recent alleged breach of the peace are to be tried in the burgh Court, Kilwinning, to-day, and the result of the trials will be reported to me. The constabulary have MacDonald's conduct under strict observation, and will continue to give the matter the closest vigilance.

Argentine Cattle Trade

I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether he is aware of a combination in Argentina to defeat the national laws against the sale in that country of imported tuberculous cattle; and, in view of the importance to Ireland of the export of Irish blood cattle, will steps be taken to secure that the Irish breeders will suffer the least possible loss, and that the combination and those implicated will be exposed in the fullest way with a view to safeguarding this Irish industry?

THE VICE - PRESIDENT OF THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE FOR IRELAND

The Department have seen certain newspaper reports on this subject. The matter will be kept in view, but at present there are no indications that its developments will prejudicially affect Irish exporters.

Irish Fishing Industry

I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture for Ireland whether he has observed, from the last Report of his Department, that there is a steady decrease in the number of persons engaged in the fishing industry in Ireland and in the quantity and value of the fish taken; and will he inform the House as to the steps he proposes taking with a view to the development of the fishing industry on the Irish coasts.

The facts are as stated in the Question. The immediate cause of the shortage in fish landed was the stormy weather which prevailed in the autumn of 1906. Modern methods of fishing tend towards the employment of few men in proportion to the quantity of fish landed, and the general decline in population of Ireland has made itself felt in some maritime districts. This question is under consideration by the Royal Commission now inquiring into the condition of the West.

Vernersbridge Assault Case

I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether he can state why the men arrested in connection with the assault case at Vernersbridge, county Armagh, have not been allowed out on bail, seeing that the doctor of one of the assaulted men has certified that his life is not in danger; and whether he will give directions for their immediate release.

THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND

The police report that of the six men arrested in connection with the assault case at Vernersbridge, three, against whom no serious overt act was proved, were admitted to bail, but that the other three were remanded in custody, as they were believed to be the chief assailants of the injured men. The local doctor certified that the life of one of the injured men was not in immediate danger, but, notwithstanding this the magistrates did not feel themselves justified in accepting bail for their appearance at the subsequent hearing, and they were remanded in custody until the 22nd instant. The remand expires this day, and now that the medical reports are more favourable, it is very probable that the magistrates will accept bail. They, however, have the responsibility of deciding the question. 1 have no power to give directions to them, and without a more intimate acquaintance with the facts than I at present possess, would not attempt to interfere with their discretion.

Irish Trade With Curacoa

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that, in consequence of the special reference made to Irish trade by the British Consul at Curacoa in his Report for the year 1905, the Consul is now in a position to state that since his last Report was published a manufacturer of biscuits and cakes in Ireland communicated with him, that some orders have been secured for the firm, and that the biscuits gave entire satisfaction; and whether he will bring this successful result to the notice of those British Consuls who are content with making the bald statement that there is no direct trade between Ireland and their respective districts, and apparently make no effort even to indicate in their Reports what possible openings there are for Irish trade.

The Answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. His Majesty's Consuls were instructed in 1905 to report on the direct trade relations between Ireland and the countries in which they resided. In 1906, His Majesty's representatives were instructed to approach the Governments to which they were accredited with a view to the separate classification of imports of Irish goods. And the attention of any Consuls who do not comply with the instructions will be called to them.

Irish Trade With Hamburg

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the British Consul-General at Hamburg, in his recent Report, states that it is not possible to furnish Returns of the trade between Ireland and Hamburg, as no special statistical Returns of the imports from or of the exports to Irish ports are drawn up there; that in the same Report Vice-Consul Renck, of Harburg, is able to state that 1,300 tons of kainit were exported from Harburg to Ireland in 1906; can he say what special sources of information were available to a Vice-Consul at a small port in the same consular district which were not available to the Consul General at the important port of Hamburg; and whether valuable information for Irish traders could be obtained if special efforts were made, in view of the fact that there is direct trade between Hamburg and at least one Irish port.

I will communicate with His Majesty's Consul-General at Hamburg on this matter.

Irish-Owned Vessels In Hamburg Port

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs can he state how many Irish owned vessels entered the port of Hamburg in 1906; what was their net register tonnage; whether, in view of the statements in the current Hamburg Consular Report, he can state whether any inquiries were made by the British Consul-General as to the nature of the cargoes carried by these Irish-owned vessels trading between Irish ports and Hamburg; and whether, in order that the Hamburg Consular Report for 1907 may be of some use to Irish traders, ho will request that special attention will be given to the collection of this information.

I have not got this information, but I will ask the Consul-General for it.

Irish Provident Assurance Company, Limited

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the manner in which the Irish Provident Assurance' Company, Limited, has been worked; is he aware that this company has collected in Ireland, and mainly from poor people, over £350,000 at a cost of £330,000, and that its funds are invested in the names of its directors, who are also salaried officials, who are at liberty to convert such funds to any use they please, and that those men are at present endeavouring to convert short-term endowment policies which are on the eve of maturity into house-purchase policies under a term of thirty 3 ears in order to evade their liabilities; and whether an inquiry will be held into those matters in order to protect the people who have invested their money in this company.

The attention of the Board of Trade has been called from time to time to the affairs of the Irish Provident Assurance Company, Limited, but I am not aware of the circumstances referred to by the hon. Member. As stated in the Answer given on 23rd April last to the hon. Member for West Kerry, the only power of inquiry vested in the Board of Trade is that, under Sections 56 and 57 of the Companies Act, 1862, of appointing an inspector upon the application of members holding not less than one-fifth part of the share capital of the company for the time being issued.

Kilrusheighter Letter Box

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that in August, 1904, an evening collection was instituted from a letter. box at Kilrusheighter, near Templeboy, county Sligo, but that the collection was discontinued on 10th January, 1906, on the ground that two private individuals refused to continue payment of a guarantee, and will he say whether the amount of correspondence from the letter-box was not sufficient to cover the cost of an evening collection; what steps, if any, were taken to ascertain the amount of correspondence from the letter-box; is it usual to insist on the payment of a guarantee where the amount of correspondence covers the cost of collection or exceeds it; does the Post Office Department always insist on a guarantee where a loss is apprehended; is he aware that Kilrusheighter district is large and populous, and that the accommodation asked for is greatly needed; and will he have this matter investigated and re considered.

I fear I can add nothing to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member's previous Question on the 5th of December last, and in the letters which I addressed to him on the 30th October and the 13th December last.

The All-Red Route

I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the feeling entertained by many Members of this House against the proposal to establish by means of the public funds an all-red route from Great Britain to Australasia across Canada, or further to subsidise any steamship lines, he will arrange that this subject shall be discussed in this House before the Government in any way pledge themselves to the Colonial Governments to provide funds for the support of such schemes.

THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
(Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN, Stirling Burghs)

The proposal to which my hon. friend refers is still under consideration. If, on examination, any such scheme was found to be feasible, no arrangement would be binding until approved by the House of Commons.

asked whether the right hon. Gentleman meant that the House would be consulted before the Government was committed to this scheme.

No, Sir. But if the Government look favourably on any scheme it will be understood that its favour is subject to the approval of the House of Commons.

New Hebrides Convention

I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to state what legislation is necessary before the New Hebrides Convention can come into operation.

His Majesty's Government are advised that no legislation is necessary.

Belfast Labour Disputes—Board Of Trade Arbitrament

I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the result of official intervention in the recent trade dispute in Belfast, and in view of the unanimity of public sentiment in favour of such intervention, the Government will consider the advisability of appointing a permanent board of arbitration having full power to interfere in and assist in the settlement of such trades disputes as may arise in the future.

The official intervention in the recent trades disputes in Belfast was taken in accordance with the powers conferred under the Conciliation Act, which the Board of Trade are always ready to exercise when the circumstances render it desirable for them to do so. I have no reason to believe that the appointment of a permanent board of arbitration would be of greater service than the Conciliation Act, which enables the Board of Trade to take action by various methods with the object of preventing or terminating disputes. I am informed that during the past two years the Board of Trade have taken action in forty-seven disputes, in most of which their intervention has been successful.

asked whether it was not the fact that in this case the offer of the Board of Trade to arbitrate was only accepted by the employers after two lives had been lost, and whether the Government would consider the advisability of giving compulsory powers to this conciliation board.

asked whether the right hon. Gentleman was aware that the trade unions of the country were opposed to compulsory arbitration. [No Answer was returned.] The following Question was answered in the House on Tuesday, August 20th.

Post Office Basket Contracts

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that a number of the baskets which Messrs. Harrison, Grantham, contracted to make for his Department were made by a sub-letting arrangement contrary to the custom of the trade; whether sub-letting is in accordance with the conditions of the contract; whether he can ascertain if 3s. 7d. is the rate fixed by the workmen's federation for the baskets,' for which the firm paid the men only 2s. 6d.; and whether he will receive and consider other information on the subject from the workmen's society.

I would refer my hon. friend to my answer to his Question of 19th ultimo. I then informed him that I would carefully consider any information bearing on the Question which he, or the Workmen's Federation, desired to put before me. I have not, however, received any further representation in regard to the matter.

The Withdrawal Of The Scottish Land Bill

I beg to ask the Prime Minister a Question of which I have given him private notice —namely, whether he is in a position to make any statement in connection with what passed in another place yesterday on the subject of the Small Landholders (Scotland) Bill.

I beg also to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in view of the fact that the Government have withdrawn the Bill and that a Bill for amending and extending the Crofters Holdings (Scotland) Act was promised in the King's Speech at the beginning of the present Parliament, it is intended to give effect to that promise by introducing land legislation for the Highlands of Scotland early next session.

THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
(Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN, Stirling Burghs)

What I understand happened with regard to this Bill in another place was this. I gather from the ordinary sources of information that their Lordships entered upon a discussion on the Second Reading of the Bill, and that, after it had proceeded at considerable length, a Motion was made that the debate be adjournedsine die, in order that they might become acquainted with the provisions of the English Small Holdings Bill, which was then on its passage through this House. In the course of that discussion there had been indications given of the view taken by the Opposition—the great majority of the Peers in the other place, hut no definite statement was made of the ultimate decision arrived at by the Opposition. But yesterday a definite announcement of that sort was made, and it appeared that the intention was, after the Second Reading of the Bill, to transform it practically into a wholly new Bill. There was to be a recognition of the necessity of the clauses dealing with the part of the country at present under the Crofters Act, and some intention, apparently, of extending the powers and areas under those Acts. There was an indication that on no account would their Lordships be advised by the Opposition to adhere to the provisions in the Bill setting up a Land Court, which we consider as vital. The further point was that certain provisions of the English Bill were to be engrafted on the Scottish Bill in order that Scotland might have the advantage of the better state of things which would be created in England. That being so, we had to consider our position with regard to the Bill. For the policy announced by the Opposition there was no authority whatever from Scotland. In fact, the very proposal showed a cynical disregard of the wishes and desires and wants of the people of Scotland as represented by those who speak for them in this House. As a matter of fact, those proposals would require substantial consideration. I may mention one fact that really influenced us on this part of the case. If you are not to adopt the proposal that we make to extend the system of the Crofters Acts to the whole of Scotland, you must select the parts of Scotland to which the provisions of the Crofters Act and the system of rural adjustment under it should be extended. That has been a matter before the people of Scotland and before this House for many years, and everyone has recognised the difficulty of discriminating when we come to that further procedure; and if that was to be entered upon it would be a matter not of days, but of weeks, or even of months, before it could be properly defined. I mention that by way of showing the futility of the course which was proposed. This being the object—to change the Bill entirely—the Second Reading appeared to us to be an utter and absolute farce. Furthermore, seeing that neither the Government nor the majority in this House would, on any condition whatever, agree to these proposals, it was totally unnecessary at this time of the session for the House of Lords to waste further time in considering the Bill, because these were proposals which the House of Commons, rightly or wrongly, representing as they are entitled to represent—the majority of Scottish Members on this side of the House may be regarded as representing—the Scottish people, could not entertain, or whose consideration even could be calmly acquiesced in. Therefore, it comes to this, that the question is forced upon us—Who is to control the legislation with regard to the vital interests of the people of Scotland? Is it those who are authorised by the people of Scotland to speak for them, or is it noble Lords in another place and a small section of this House who sympathise with the noble Lords? I trust there will be no doubt whatever what answer must be given to that question; and we abandon what would have been a farce, the proposal that further progress should be made with this Bill in those circumstances, and with those avowed intention's on behalf of the commanding majority in the other House. We abandon the further progress of this Bill with the greatest regret, but the provisions which are thus objected to will be reintroduced at an early date and will be passed through this House in as speedy a manner as possible, and then we shall invite the other House either honestly to reject these provisions or to pass the Bill with reasonable Amendments consistent with its main purpose and principles. As I have said, it is a question of the future control of Scottish affairs, and on that question we have no doubt what our course is.

Under the guise of answering a Question, the right hon. Gentleman has pronounced a manifesto to which I have not the least objection, I need hardly say; only I presume it will, by the practice of this House, be permitted to me, after the procedure which the right hon. Gentleman has thought fit to take, to travel beyond the limits which would ordinarily be regarded as proper in the mere putting of a supplementary Question. The right hon. Gentleman terminated his address by using an epithet which suggested that in the course they have pursued the other House was not acting honestly. I leave it to this House to decide whether that is either a convenient or a decorous method of commenting upon another place. I do not suppose the Members of that other place will take much umbrage at anything which falls from the right hon. Gentleman. What is the course which the right hon. Gentleman describes as something less than honest which the House of Lords has pursued? I have no better and no worse sources of information than the right hon. Gentleman upon this subject; but from such sources of information as are open, either to me or to him, I gather that what the House of Lords have done is simply to offer to the Government, and, what is much more important, to the people of Scotland in the first place, as regards that part of Scotland where the conditions do not differ in any sense whatever from the conditions in England, that measure of reform which the Government think enough for England. As regards that part of Scotland where the conditions differ from England, I understand the House of Lords to have offered to pass a Bill amending the existing Crofters Acts, which, at all events so far as it goes, I understand to meet with the general acceptance of every Gentleman in this House who represents a crofting constituency. And, as the right hon. Gentleman has, apparently, laid it down as a proposition that the House of Lords is never to be permitted to do anything which is not approved by those who represent particular areas, and as I presume, therefore, it ought to do everything which is desired to be done by gentlemen representing particular areas, I should have thought their fundamental duty, on the constitutional lines laid down by the right hon. Gentleman, would have been to accept for the crofting counties that which the crofting Members desire should be accepted. Had they done so the crofting counties would not have been deprived, as they are now going to be deprived by the action of His Majesty's Government, either of legislation which they desire or of funds which have been promised them by this Bill, and which they will no longer be able to obtain. What is the excuse given by the right hon. Gentleman for thus depriving the crofter representatives of that which they desire, and for depriving the rest of Scotland of that which they think good enough for England? His reason—and his only reason—is that merely to delimit the crofter area is a task of such enormous difficulty—

I particularly said I gave that as an example of the difficulties, but that it was not, of course, the whole reason of the action we had taken.

I presume it was the most striking example of the right hon. Gentleman, otherwise he would not have given it. And what was this most striking example of the difficulties that lay in the way of this House carrying out the policy which I endeavoured to outline? The difficulty was this, that it would take us weeks, and even months—that was the exact phrase of the right hon. Gentleman—to decide this question of the delimitation of the crofter area. Under the guidance of the right Gentleman we took twelve hours, and twelve hours only, to discuss the whole question of a new rating Bill for Scotland; we took three days to discuss in a full House all the provisions—not merely the limitation provisions—contained in the Land Bill for Scotland; we took three days to discuss forty-five clauses of the English Bill, and why the right hon. Gentleman should thus suddenly change his whole views as to the proprieties of Parliamentary procedure, the liberties of Parliamentary debate, and the length of time which it is proper to take to deal with difficult questions on August 22nd passes my comprehension. It is, of course, quite obvious from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, not that he has the slightest desire either to carry out the wishes of the crofting Members, or to give to the other parts of Scotland the benefit of the Small Holdings Bill; his whole policy is based upon a desire to pick a quarrel with the other House. On that point I can only say that I cannot imagine that he could have chosen a worse subject on which to do so.

*

I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman, who authorised the Earl of Crewe to state in the House of Lords last night that those who were entitled to speak for the northern counties concurred in the withdrawal of the crofters' portion of the Scottish Land Bill?

Lord Crewe did not make that statement by any authority from me, but the statement was quite correct. I received assurances from all sides—from within this House and from without it—that while the crofter county representatives were anxious to obtain these benefits for the crofters, which they have never received from the other side of the House except for some different purpose—I say, while they were so anxious, they submitted themselves loyally to what was considered the best policy and tactics—[Loud OPPOSITION cheers, which were prolonged for some time by Mr. Austen Chamberlain and other Members, until at last the right hon. Gentleman resumed his seat.] I had to sit down while the right hon. Gentleman—

rose and stood at the Table. As neither right hon. Gentlemen would give way, there were loud cries of "Order, order!"

*

I would venture to point out that the whole of this discussion being very irregular, the best way of bringing it to an end would be to use as little contentious matter as possible.

If I have erred on the point of contentions matter I apologize. But what I was saying was that Members in the House and their countrymen in their counties outside of the House have given unmistakable proof that they are not desirous of receiving any advantage for themselves at the cost of the rest of their countrymen.

New Member Sworn

Ellis Jones Griffith, esquire, for the county of Anglesea.

Standing Orders

Ordered, That the Standing Orders, as amended, be printed. [No. 329.]

Expiring Laws Continuance Bill

Read a second time.

Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for to-morrow.—( Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

Public Works Loans Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

said the total amount of outstanding loans at the present time was £69,347,000. Out of that sum £592,000 had been written off as irrecoverable. There had been many restrictions in recent years owing to the fact that the Treasury objected to making loans to large local bodies on the ground that those bodies should be able, on the strength of their own credit, to raise such money as they required for their own purposes. They had thus succeeded in recent years in avoiding any large issue, and there had been no issue of local loans since 1904. They did not anticipate that in the near future there was likely to be any issue of this stock. The Bill in Clause 2 provided for the wiping out of some irrecoverable loans. Clause 6 contained the fulfilment of the undertaking given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer under the Labourers (Ireland) Acts, which would provide for an extension of the period of the repayment of loans which had been made under those Acts. This would, in the long run, bring a relief to the local authorities of Ireland, which would amount approximately to something like £40,000 per annum. That would be of considerable advantage to the local authorities in Ireland, and that, combined with the relief granted under the Act of last year, would bring the assistance given to those local authorities up to £70,000 per annum. Clause 9 provided for the wiping out of loans made in the case of the Cullen Harbour Commissioners. The Harbour Commissioners were entirely out of funds, the trade on which they depended a few years ago having entirely left the port. Unless the port was to be left derelict it was necessary that something should be done. Clause 3 dealt with Volunteer drill-halls, which were now taken over by the Secretary for War. Clauses 4 and 5 were entirely new in this Bill. Clause 4 dealt with a loan of £800,000 to the Colony of Jamaica. This loan was in addition to the Grant of £150,000 already provided for. It was to provide for the devastation brought about by the earthquake at Jamaica. It was quite possible that the individual claims which would be made on this fund would reach £800,000, but only £75,000 would be used for the purposes of the Government itself, and the total of £800,000 was the limit beyond which the loan would not go. Clause 5 dealt with the Northern Nigerian scheme, which was one of considerable magnitude. From the Treasury point of view, Northern Nigeria, in which the proposed railway was to be constructed, had been a source, not of profit, but of great expense to the United Kingdom. They had had to pay out grants-in-aid of varied amounts up to £350,000 per annum. At the present time the grant-in-aid to Northern Nigeria amounted to something like £300,000. If the Home Government wished to reduce that amount they would have to enter upon such schemes as would reduce the cost of the administration and the cost of the West African Frontier Force, and also do something towards increasing the commercial prosperity of that great territory. It was quite clear that unless the means of communication in that Colony were improved none of those things could be attained. We had always held that country with a small handful of men, and the expense of moving them about had been considerable. Therefore it was felt absolutely necessary that as soon as possible a railway should be constructed along the main lines of communication, not only for commerce, but for strategic purposes. This scheme had been very carefully thought out, so far as the Treasury was concerned, and he could assure the House that they had given their consent to it with the very greatest caution. His right hon. friend would be able to assure the House on the various points which had not been made clear in the course of the discussion. They had succeeded in the course of a year and a half or two years in arriving at the present stage of the scheme. Sir Percy Girouard, who was out in Northern Nigeria, would devote his skill to the construction of this railway, and they anticipated that, in the course of two years, a line of communication would be opened from Baro on the Niger to Zungeru, about 100 miles, and ultimately to Kano. This would absorb something like £350,000. From their point of view, it was absolutely necessary they should improve the communication, and there- fore the Treasury gave their consent to the scheme after it had been thoroughly criticised, and properly thought out, and the whole of the financial arrangements had been made with their consent. Funds had to be provided in one of three ways£Either by a direct grant from the Imperial Exchequer, or by a loan secured on the Colony itself, or by a loan on the security of some other self-contained Colony, which could be held responsible. They decided that a direct grant was absolutely out of the question, as they were not prepared to repeat the Uganda experiment of some few years ago. The second resort, that of a security on the Colony, was also out of the question, because the Colony was not self-supporting, and could only make ends meet by a grant-in-aid which amounted to nearly £300,000. The last resort was to deal with the whole of that area of Northern and Southern Nigeria from a new point of view. They considered how far these Colonies could be kept apart, and the ultimate decision arrived at was that for ordinary government purposes the ultimate aim must be the amalgamation of these two Colonies. If that was so, it was quite clear that the new Colony, of Nigeria would be in possession of a railway which had been constructed at the expense of the Imperial Government. A prosperous Colony like Southern Nigeria was not entitled to a great gift of this kind, and they, therefore, thought it was a feasible arrangement insomuch as South Nigeria now provided something like £70,000 as a grant-in-aid towards the expenditure of Northern Nigeria, that they might deal with that £70,000 as part of the transactions into which they had entered with Southern Nigeria; and the ultimate arrangement they made was this: They agreed to a loan being made out of the Local Loans Fund provided for in this clause. Having done that, they were prepared to relieve Southern Nigeria from the interest on this grant, by means of a deduction from the grant-in-aid which Southern Nigeria now made to Northern Nigeria, so that Southern Nigeria would not be out of pocket in the first instance. They were then prepared to consider the possibility, and, in fact it was their aim, that ultimately this debt should be a Colonial debt. When the Colony was given self-government, it was almost impossible to place on to its shoulders a debt which had been incurred in the creation of that Colony without giving at the same time a guarantee on the Imperial Exchequer. They thought that by this transaction, which they hoped to consummate in this Bill, they would provide funds for the railway which would be ample, and would place the liability on the shoulders of those who ought to bear it, and that they would in the long run provide that these two Colonies should bear the whole burden of the debt that had been created in their interest and for their benefit. As this was a new proceeding, he thought it necessary to point out that although it was new in the Public Works Loans Bill, it was not new in their financial arrangements. The House was aware that the Colonial Loans Act, 1897, provided for a loan being made for Lagos, which was now a part of Southern Nigeria, and also the Niger Protectorate, on exactly the same terms as were provided for in this Bill. There was also a loan to Cyprus, which was absolutely analogous to the loan which it was sought to make under this Bill. Therefore the transaction with which the Government were proceeding was not without precedent, and he thought that the precedent afforded on that occasion had not been a source of regret to any of those who were concerned. He hoped the House would consent to the Bill, and especially to those two provisions, the Jamaica loan and the Nigerian loan. In conclusion, he could assure the House that they hoped by this means to avoid any calls for money for this purpose. Under the clause inserted in the Bill of last year they were able to use funds which were at the disposal of the National Debt Commissioners—self-contained funds, if he might so speak of them, which would make it unnecessary for them to go to the money market for money required either in Jamaica or in Southern Nigeria. He had no doubt this would be a source of satisfaction, not only to the money market, but to Members of that House who were interested in financial affairs. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Mr. Runciman.)

said that the hon. Gentleman had stated that Clauses 4 and 5 were new to the Bill; he desired to submit to Mr. Speaker that they were beyond the scope of the Bill. The Bill was to—

Grant money for the purpose of certain local loans out of the Local Loans Fund, and for other purposes relating to local loans.
The Act of 1887, Section 6, Subsection 1, referred to advances by Parliament of money for the purpose of loans to the Public Works Loans Commissioners, the Fisheries Board of Scotland, or the Commissioners of Works in Ireland, or to the Irish Land Commission, or for the purpose of similar loans by the Treasury, and he submitted that it was perfectly clear that under that Act the National Debt Commissioners were authorised to, advance money for similar loans to the Public Works Loans Commissioners, the Scottish Fishery Board, the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland, and the Irish Land Commission. Under the Act of 1887 the Public Works Loans Commissioners were instituted for the purpose of granting money to municipal authorities, but there was in the Act a statement that the provisions of the Colonial Act of 1899 were incorporated, and on referring to that Act he found that it authorised certain public loans to certain Colonies or places. It was not described, like this Bill, as being for the purpose of granting money from local loans out of the Local Loans Fund and for other purposes relating to local loans. It was something different. Subsection 2 said the advances authorised by that Act—
Shall be local loans within the meaning of the National Debt and Local Loans Act, 1887, and shall apply accordingly.
The point he ventured to submit was this. The Colonial Loans Act was intituled—
An Act for the advance of public loans to certain Colonies or places.
A Bill ought to have been brought in. to grant loans to Nigeria and Jamaica. That had not been done, and as a matter of fact Clauses 4 and 5 of the present Bill were out of order, because they were beyond its scope. He submitted this to Mr Speaker as a point of order.

*

The Colonial Loans Act of 1899 contains Subsection 2, Section 1. It says—

Advances authorised by this Act
—that is, the Colonial Loans Act of 1899—
shall be local loans within the meaning of the Local Loans Act, 1887.
It would have been open, I think, to the draftsman of this Bill to have inserted that section in the Bill which we are now discussing, and if it were in this Bill I do not suppose the hon. Gentleman would raise his objection, because it would then have said, "Advances authorised by this Act shall be local loans within the meaning of the National Debt and Local Loans Act, 1899," and that Act would apply accordingly. That would have been the more direct method for the draftsman to adopt, but instead of that he has put into two clauses of this Bill a provision making the Colonial Loans Act applicable, subsection 2 of Section 1 being inserted in the Schedule of this Bill. I dare say there may be good reason for it, but it is a more roundabout way than that of adopting the subsection straight out of the Colonial Loans Act of 1899. The draftsman has put into the schedule the subsections he wants, and then he makes the provisions of the Colonial Loans Act as set out in the schedule applicable. I think the result is the same though the method is a little more roundabout. In other words, he says that these particular loans are to be considered as local loans, and if they be considered local loans then it is right and proper that they should come into the Bill, and they are within the scope of the Bill. I do not know whether I have made myself clear to the hon. Gentleman.

said the only point that, was doubtful was whether the first three lines of the Bill ought not to have been amended so as to include the loans to Colonial places. That would have followed the precedent of the Act of 1899. But they had not done that; they had not said it was a Bill authorising public loans to certain Colonies or places, and it seemed to him that the first three lines of the Bill should be amended, because they set forth that the Bill was to—

Grant money for the purpose of certain local loans out of the Local Loans Fund, etc.
They had the precedent of the Colonial Loans Act of 1899, and he certainly thought the point which he raised as to Amendments being required for the first three lines of the present Bill was one which required some explanation.

*

I did not say so. That subsection appears in the schedule. Clauses 4 and 5 refer to the schedule, and they make Subsection 2 of Section 1 of the Colonial Loans Act applicable to this Bill.

said that after the ruling which had just been given it appeared to him that loans to Jamaica could be considered local in the sense of the Bill they were now discussing. Any criticism from the Opposition side of the House would not be directed to Clauses 4 and 5, but rather to suggesting that the money should be voted in the form of a loan to Jamaica and Nigeria. They were not proceeding in the best and most suitable way. The Colonial Act of 1899 was an Act passed to sanction advances set forth in the schedule amounting to £3,351,000, and that was a clearly self-contained Bill authorising the Treasury to advance the money.

thought it would have been better if the Government had followed the precedent of the Act of 1899, and made the grant to these two Colonies in the form in which it was made under that Act. He understood that the object of advancing this sum of money out of the Local Loans Fund was to avoid the necessity of going into the money market. By the precedent set under the Act of 1899, this money would come out of the funds of the Public Works Loans Commissioners, and he thought it would be much better to follow that example in the present Bill and bring in a separate Bill applying to these two Colonies and use the Public Works Loans Act for the purpose it was intended by this House and not complicate matters by the introduction of extraneous questions. There would be no objection raised to the passing of this Bill in its present form or in the more correct form he had suggested, but it could easily be amended by the omission of those two clauses and a Bill might be introduced which would carry out the intention of both sides of the House in a way more convenient and more in accordance with precedent.

said his right hon. friend was right in assuming that this Bill would not receive any strenuous opposition from that side of the House. He had, however, one or two suggestions to make. Perhaps the Secretary to the Treasury would accept his congratulations upon the clear statement he had made to the House. As to Nigeria, he was glad to hear that they were likely to get some return for the £300,000 they had been annually spending in that country. The Under-Secretary for the Colonies had also stated that the making of this railway would have the effect of opening up and developing wide productive areas for cotton growing. That raised a very important question. He thought the financial aspect of the Bill was perfectly sound. The Under-Secretary for the Colonies must be very happy in looking back upon Nigeria, because there was no portion of the Empire where such splendid work had been done by what he might call a mere omnibusful of British officials, in a country which was six years ago in a state of anarchy. In Northern Nigeria they had entered upon a country containing 262,000 square miles and in Southern Nigeria 47,000 square miles, inhabited by numberless warring tribes. He wished to pay the highest tribute to the splendid work which Sir Frederick Lugard and hisconfrères had done. Personally he doubted whether this railway would ever have been established for strategical purposes alone. Sir Frederick Lugard had been in Nigeria a number of years and he knew the conditions of the country. His Reports showed a very wide grasp of economic as well as commercial questions, and he recommended tramway which he said could be built at infinitely less expense than a railway such as that which was now projected. If it was the case that a tramway could have been erected, which when the railway was built might have been used to form branch lines to feed the main line, that struck him as an exceedingly reasonable proposition which had in it all the elements of common sense and reason and proceeded upon the lines of gradual development. The products of the country were very few. What was the policy of projecting this railway apart from strategical considerations? It was practically a policy of subsidy and bounty. The railway represented a very high protectionist policy.