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Royal Navy

Volume 50: debated on Tuesday 18 March 1913

The text on this page has been created from Hansard archive content, it may contain typographical errors.

Destroyer (New Type)

37.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Government received four years ago from a group of Continental engineers plans and designs for a new type of naval destroyer, faster than any existing battleship, armed with a single gun of maximum power to fire a projectile playing the part of an aerial torpedo, and presenting to the enemy's fire only a bow-shield of such shape and thickness as to be impenetrable; whether such plans were considered and rejected; whether it is known that a foreign Power accepted them and has now completely modified its naval policy owing to the value of this new type of naval destroyer, which is claimed as rendering the building of "Dreadnoughts" futile; and, if so, will he say how the Government intend to meet the situation?

There is no record of any such proposal having been received at the Admiralty. There is no evidence that any foreign nation has modified its naval policy on account of the adoption of a vessel of the type referred to. So far as this country is concerned, there is no change in the situation calling for a reconsideration of naval policy.

Royal Dockyards (Overtime)

38.

asked whether a workman, when he is placed on the establishment in the Royal dockyards, signs any form or document whereby he can be compelled to work overtime if requested by his foreman or superintendent?

A workman when placed on the established list does not sign any formal document which involves any specific liability to work overtime. But, naturally, his continued employment is contingent upon the faithful discharge of his duties. I may add that, under section 8 of the superannuation Act of 1859, the full pension on discharge can be granted only when the head of the department certifies that the established man has served with diligence and fidelity and to his satisfaction.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that men who refused to work overtime have been threatened with a heavy fine or discharge from the service?

I am not aware of that, but, as I said, continued employment is contingent upon the faithful discharge of his duties.

Does that carry with it the right of the Admiralty to send these men to work whether they are physically fit or not?

Reserve Officers

39.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the reference in the "Shipping Gazette" of 1st March to the terms on which Royal Naval Reserve officers can be transferred from the merchant service to the Royal Navy, with regard to promotion to the rank of commander in cases of exceptional services, is intended to indicate the highest rank which is open to any such officers transferred to the Royal Navy; and; if so, whether he is aware that the terms offered are not such as to induce the most useful and promising officers in the merchant service to join the Royal Navy?

The answer to the question is in the negative. A supplementary lieutenant who is promoted to commander can reach the highest rank in the naval service.

40.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in regard to the forthcoming appointment of a certain number of officers of the merchant service as lieutenants in the Royal Navy, the inducements offered to these officers are to be inferior to those which were offered when last the Admiralty availed themselves of the services of merchant service officers in a similar way; whether it is proposed to restrict the pay to 10s. per diem and to stop the 2s. daily mess allowance in addition, which was previously granted; and whether he will consider the advisability of offering such inducements as are likely to lead to the acquisition of the very best and most efficient talent from the merchant service?

Owing to the abolition of the messing allowance, the full pay of supplementary lieutenants will be slightly less than the scale in force when officers were previously entered. In other respects the inducements are the same, and in regard to the chances of promotion the new supplementary lieuenants will be at a distinct advantage. The pay will start at 10s. a day and rise to 16s. a day without messing allowance. This with the other advantages attaching to service in the Royal Navy will, it is expected, attract most suitable officers from the Royal Naval Reserve.

Caning Of Boys

41.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will state what was the approximate number of canings inflicted on boys in the Royal Navy in the years 1910 and 1911, respectively, as compared with the 1,500 stated by him to have been the approximate number in 1909; and whether the new regulation, limiting the award of this punishment to offences of a grave character, will apply also to the naval training establishments at Shotley and elsewhere?

I am informed that the total number of canings awarded to boys of the Royal Navy in the years 1910 and 1911 is not available, and that to obtain even approximate figures would involve the examination of over 2,000 quarterly punishment returns that are rendered from the fleet. With regard to the last part of the question, the regulation limiting the award of caning to certain serious offences, are applicable to all ships and naval establishments.

Seeing that the predecessor of the right hon. Gentleman was able to obtain the approximate number, is not the House of Commons entitled to know the extent of these punishments in the Royal Navy?

Midland Railway (Double-Headed Trains)

43 and 47.

asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether he is aware of the growing practice on the Midland Railway to run double-headed trains with as many as 100 wagons with only one brake-van; and, having regard to the danger to the railwaymen and the travelling public that must arise if any accident occurs, what steps he proposes to take to deal with the matter; and (2) whether he is aware that on Sunday, 23rd February, the 11.10 a.m. Midland Railway train left Gawhole sidings for Moston sidings, Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway, a distance of over fifteen miles, passing over en route a dangerous gradient and three important junctions; that one of the drivers of the train, which was double-headed, informed the foreman that he did not know the road and that he had not been over a portion of the road in his life; that the foreman informed him that he must go as the other driver knew the road, and that was sufficient; and, having regard to the fact that this is a distinct violation of Rule 138 of the company's rules and regulations and a standing menace both to the men and the public, what action he proposes to take to safeguard the men who endeavour to strictly carry out the rules and regulations of the company?

I have communicated with the company in regard to the matters referred to in these questions, relating to the Midland Railway Company, and will inform my hon. Friend of the result.

Judges (Royal Commissions)

45.

asked the Prime Minister the number of judges, including Lords of Appeal, who are at present serving on committees of inquiry appointed by the Government or Royal Commissions; and the average number of hours per week that they are absent from their judicial duties by reason of such inquiries?

There are two judges, including Lords of Appeal, now engaged on Royal Commissions or Committees of Inquiry: Lord Parker, who is presiding over the Committee of experts in the Marconi Inquiry; Mr. Justice Darling, who is serving on the Judicial Commission. Neither of them has been absent from his judicial duties by reason of such inquiries.

What is the use of appointing one additional judge to wipe out arrears of judicial business when you are taking two judges away from their judicial duties?

The hon. Gentleman did not listen to me. If he had done me the courtesy to do so, he would have known that I said that neither of them had been withdrawn for one moment from his judicial duties.

Scottish Legal Department

46.

asked the Prime Minister whether, before the promised measure to confer self-government on the Kingdom of Scotland is proceeded with, it is his intention to reorganise the Scottish Legal Department; and whether in any such reorganisation the office of Lord Advocate will be discontinued or amalgamated and the salary attached diverted to other purposes?

I am not aware of any grounds for such reorganisation as the hon. Member suggests.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the present holder of this office found time to address twenty-six meetings in connection with the recent London County Council election?

I know that there has never been one day's arrears in the work of that office.

Load Line (International Conference)

48.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether it is proposed to appoint an advisory committee to instruct and assist the British delegates at the international conference on the load-line regulations of ships; and, if so, can he state the names of the persons who will form this committee?

As I have already announced, I propose to appoint a Committee to advise me as to the instructions to be given to the British delegates at the International Load-Line Conference, and for this purpose it will be necessary for the Committee to consider whether the tables of freeboard now in force require any, and, if so, what modification. I ant not at present in a position to give the names of the members of the Committee, but I hope to be able to do so shortly.

Milk Imports

49.

asked the quantity of fresh milk imported into England from France during the month of January, 1912?

The quantity of fresh milk consigned from France which was imported into the United Kingdom in January last was 1,873 cwts. There were no imports of milk from France in January, 1912.

Post Office Contracts

50.

asked the Postmaster-General whether his Department ever invite a firm to tender for a contract if it is known that the firm in its treatment of its employés does not come up to the standard laid down in the Fair-Wages Clause?

The Fair-Wages Clause is a condition of all Post Office contracts, and any wilful non-observance of this condition results in the name of the offending firm being removed from the Post Office list. As a general rule, however, the representations made to a firm whose wages conditions appear to be below the proper standard lead to satisfactory results.

Gillingham (Dorset) Post Office

51.

asked the Postmaster-General what steps he is taking to provide a new post office and telephone service for the town of Gillingham, Dorset; whether he is aware that the plans for the said post office were under consideration by his Department as long ago as October, 1911, and that repeated answers have been given, both to letters and to a deputation, that the matter was receiving attention; and whether, under these circumstances, he can promise immediate action?

The need for a new post office at Gillingham, Dorset, has long been recognised, but the case has presented considerable difficulties. The proposals to which the hon. Member refers were laid before the Treasury in the latter part of last year, but, in view of certain defects attaching to the site that was offered, they did not see their way to authorise the scheme. Fresh proposals, however, which include accommodation for a telephone exchange, are now being submitted to them, and, if the scheme meets with their approval, I have every hope that building operations will be begun in the course of the present calendar year. Au exchange will be opened when the new building is ready if the support then available or in prospect justifies it financially.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the constant deferment of the provision of a new post office and telephone service at Gillingham has caused great inconvenience at that end of both Dorset and Wilts?

I am hoping that these matters may now be dealt with at an early date.

Telegraph Service (Dublin)

53.

asked whether the Postmaster-General's attention has been drawn to the resolution of the Dublin Chamber of Commerce, and adopted at the annual meeting of the Association of Chambers of Commerce of the United Kingdom, complaining of the frequent interruptions of the telegraphic service to Dublin viâ Holyhead; and whether he is prepared to adopt the suggestion that underground wires should be laid to obviate the frequent delays in the transmission of messages?

As informed my hon. Friend in an answer to a question on the 12th February, there are eleven cables now crossing the Irish Channel from four different points on the coasts of Wales or Scotland, and, as the lines connected with these cables are never interrupted simultaneously, the slight additional protection afforded by an underground line on one route would be out of proportion to the heavy cost involved in its provision.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that since 1st January there have been many complete breakdowns in the transmission of telegraphic messages between Dublin stock Exchange and London, and that thirteen occurred during last February?

The direct line between Dublin stock Exchange and London has been interrupted from time to time, but generally within a few minutes other lines of communication have been utilised. All telegraph lines are more or less liable to interruption from time to time.

Is it not the fact that there is congestion on the other lines, and that messages ordinarily sent by Anglesey are sent over other lines in the North of Ireland.

I do not think there is any congestion. There have been interruptions of the Dublin stock Exchange line, but there have been always other means of communication available. These interruptions are not due to storms; they are electric.

Prison Warders (Pay)

54.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will say when an answer may be expected to the petitions of the prison warders of August last for a rise of pay, which has become necessary owing to the greatly increased cost of living during recent years?

I am sorry that I am not yet in a position to give any definite answer. I have been in communication with the Treasury, but it is on financial grounds impossible to arrive at any immediate decision. I can only say that the subject will be fully considered during the coming financial year.

Is it not the fact that these men have been waiting twenty years for an increase of salary?

Women Factory Inspectors

56.

asked whether in view of the facts that no additional women factory inspectors have been appointed since 1908 other than those needed to fill posts which have been vacated, and that during these years the number of working women coming under Home Office inspection have increased from one and a half millions to nearly two millions, the Home Secretary will make a substantial increase in His Majesty's women inspectors' staff?

My hon. Friend has, I think, been misinformed as to the figures of employment of women in factories and workshops. The last Return relates to the year 1907, when the number was 1,852,241, and not 1,500,000, and there are no figures as to the number at present employed. The Return for 1912 is now being collected. Proposals for strengthening the staff of the Factory Department are now under consideration, and I hope to make an addition to the women inspectors' staff as well as to the staff of other branches of the Department.

Mines (Rescue And Aid) Order (Scotland)

57.

asked whether the Returns called for from the Scottish mineowners, under the Mines (Rescue and Aid) Order, have now been examined; and whether, having regard to the danger to life and limb to which miners as a class are constantly exposed, the Home Secretary will take immediate action to secure the formation of rescue brigades, the provision of up-to-date rescue and ambulance appliances, and the establishment of rescue stations throughout the Lanarkshire and other Scottish coalfields in terms of Section 85 of the Coal Mines Act, 1911?

Yes, Sir; the Returns have now been tabulated, and, I regret to say, show that in some counties the progress made is far from satisfactory. The Order has now been in force for nearly a year, and the owners have had ample time in which to make their arrangements; and unless I receive an assurance from them that energetic steps will be taken at once to secure full compliance with the Order at an early date it will be necessary to take legal proceedings to enforce the Order.

Cruelty To Animals Act (Inspectorships)

58.

asked whether, in a circular recently issued by his Department inviting applications for two additional inspectorships under the Cruelty to Animals Act, 1876, it is stipulated that all applicants should be registered medical practitioners; and, if so, why, in making appointments requiring expert veterinary knowledge, preference is given to doctors over qualified veterinary surgeons?

In accordance with the recommendation of the majority of the Royal Commission on Vivisection, I invited applications from registered medical practitioners, but I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough on the 12th February, supplementing the terms of the circular.

Will not the right hon. Gentleman tell us that the veterinary surgeon is better qualified by education to properly gauge the effect of vivisection on living animals than members of the medical profession?

In view of the evidence given before the Royal Commission, I doubt whether I should be justified in making the admission the hon. Gentleman asks.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether medical practitioners have a much more severe and searching course than is the case with veterinary surgeons?

Police Force (England And Scotland—Clothing)

66.

asked the amount of the annual contribution by the Treasury towards the pay and clothing of the police force in England and Scotland, respectively?

In the case of Scotland a fixed annual sum of £180,000 a year is paid from the local taxation moneys towards the cost of the clothing and pay of the police. In the case of England a Grant is made also from local taxation moneys of one-half of the pay and clothing of police. The amount of this Grant for the last year for which figures are available (excluding London, where special arrangements prevail) was £1,372,035. It would, however, be incorrect to infer from these figures that there is inequality between England and Scotland. The total sums available for contributions to local purposes are rateably apportioned between the two countries, and the effect of more being given out of this total for police services in England is merely to reduce in proportion the amount available for other local purposes.

Church Of England School, Somersetshire

68.

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that the chairman of managers of a Church of England school in Somerset-shire has been fined by the county bench for assaulting one of the teachers and has been locked out of the school for weeks while a guard of the parishioners watched night and day to prevent his entry; whether he knows that the county education authority has recently held four local inquiries into the condition of the school; and whether any power can be exercised by the local education authority or the Board of Education to remove those managers whose present position leads to scandals of this character?

I have no knowledge of the matters referred to in the first part of the question, nor am I aware of the number of local inquiries held by the county education authority with reference to the condition of the school. Neither the Board nor the local education authority have any direct power to remove individual managers, but the Board are, of course, able to intervene in other ways for the purpose of securing the efficiency of the school.

Having been provided with all these facts, chapter and verse, will the right hon. Gentleman press the local authority to insist on having a new scheme for this school, so that these scandals may be avoided?

I have no authority to press upon them a new scheme. If the hon. Gentleman will send me any information I will look into it.

Foreign Milk

69.

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether foreign milk imported into the United Kingdom is subject to any examination and tests as to its purity; and whether the cows from which it is obtained are subject to any inspection?

Samples of imported milk are taken at frequent intervals by my inspectors, and are submitted to full bacteriological examination. I understand that in the district from which this milk is derived provision is made for the periodical examination of dairy cattle by veterinary surgeons.

May I ask is the examination carried out by the Local Government Board?

The examination is not made by the Local Government Board, but by veterinary surgeons in the district from which the milk is derived.

Does the reply of the hon. Gentleman apply to milk powder, as well as to fresh milk imported from abroad?

Local Authorities (Contracts)

70.

asked how many local authorities have complied with the Local Government Board's circular of 2nd September, 1911, suggesting that they should insert in all contracts involving the expenditure of public money the clause suggested by the Fair-Wages Advisory Committee and set out in the Local Government Board's Circular of the above date; what clauses with regard to the employment of labour are in practice inserted by local authorities in their contracts at the present time; how many insert no clauses or clauses other than those recommended by the Fair-Wages Advisory Committee; whether, if this information is not at present available, he will obtain from local authorities a Return showing how many local authorities insert in their contracts clauses with regard to the conditions upon which labour is to be employed; and what the exact words of such clauses are and when such clauses were first introduced by the respective local authorities in their contracts?

The information asked for in the question is not available, and could only be obtained by means of a Return, the collection of the material for which would be a lengthy and laborious process.

West Ashford Casual Ward (Prosecutions)

71.

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the case of eight men sentenced at the Ashford Police Court to fourteen days' hard labour for refusing to perform the allotted task of breaking stone at the West Ashford casual ward, Hothfield; whether he is aware that the strike of these men arose out of the refusal of the superintendent to grant the men's request for hot water to wash down the bread supplied for breakfast; whether the Regulations insist that cold water is an item of the menu; and, if so, will steps be taken giving discretion to superintendents of casual wards to make concessions of the nature indicated in the request of these strikers?

I have made some inquiry in this matter. I understand that the men referred to refused to do their tasks unless supplied with a hot beverage, either tea, coffee, or cocoa, in addition to the dietary allowance of bread. The regulations do not contain any provision as to the supply of drinking water, but I understand the men were told they could obtain warm water if they required it.

Congested Districts Board (Ireland)

72.

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that the Congested Districts Board has not yet constructed the boat-slip at Cooscroum, nor the boat-slip at the southern side of the quay at Caherciveen, nor have they taken steps to mark the sunken rocks in the estuary at Portmagee which are a source of danger to the fishing boats passing up and down; and whether, in view of the frequent representations made on the subject, these necessary works will be taken in hand immediately at the beginning of the new financial year?

inquiries will be made by members of the Congested Districts Board as to whether a boat-slip is necessary at Cooscroum, near Caherciveen, at which place the Board have recently built a pier at considerable cost. The Board have offered to contribute one-half the cost of building a boat-slip at Caherciveen if the county council will undertake the work, but this offer has not yet been accepted by the council. Inquiries will also be made as to the necessity for having the berthage at Portmagee Pier cleared of rocks to enable steamers to lie alongside it at low tide.

77.

asked whether the Congested Districts Board have taken any steps to purchase the estate of John M'Keon, of Drumparson, situated in the parish of Kiltubrid, county Leitrim; and, if not, whether, having regard to the amount of congestion in the district, they would take immediate action in this case?

The Congested Districts Board communicated with the owner regarding a sale of the estate referred to, but it has not so far been offered for sale through the Board. A further communication will now be addressed to him in the matter.

Flooded Areas (County Cavan)

73.

asked the Chief Secretary what area of arable land is flooded in the Redhills district, county Cavan, owing to obstructions in the river between Lough Sarah, at Castlesanderson, and Killabandrick Lough; and will he have an inspector sent to investigate and report in this matter, stating the probable cost of freeing the water in this district?

I understand the lands in question are within the area of the Lough and River Erne Drainage Board. It would apparently rest with the local interests concerned to take any such action as is suggested by the hon. Member. The Board of Works have no powers in the matter.

Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that there is nobody responsible in this House, or that nothing can be done to deal with this very serious matter, affecting as it does a poor and populous district?

I am not sure of the powers of the local authority, but the Board of Works has no authority.

Foot-And-Mouth Disease

75.

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether, upon the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in that country last year, the Department of which he is President consulted the Irish Law Officers as to the legality of the action of the English Department in acting as they did towards Irish stock by refusing animals from areas healthy for the past thirty years being sent to markets in Great Britain; if he will circulate with the Votes a copy of the case submitted and the opinion received; whether he is aware that, in the opinion of some lawyers and others, the action of the English Department towards Ireland last year was that recited in the Act authorising its coming into existence as applicable to foreign animals coming to Great Britain from without the United Kingdom; and whether he has acquainted himself with the promises made in the speeches of the Ministers and others responsible for the introduction of the Bill that Ireland would in reality be treated as a part of the United Kingdom?

The Irish Law Officers were not consulted on the point mentioned, as action corresponding in general character to that of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries had been taken from time to time in previous years by the Department, with a view to safeguard Ireland from the introduction of disease from Great Britain. The Department's Orders for this purpose were approved by the then existing Law Officers before issue.

Did the Irish Department consult their own Law Officers before they took the same action with regard to English cattle?

Prosecution Of Traders (Dublin)

78 and 79.

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland (1) whether he is aware that the police authorities in Dublin have instituted prosecutions against traders in Great Britain Street for persevering in a custom of exhibiting goods for sale eighteen inches or so outside their doors and windows, but well within the space conveyed to them by the lease of their premises, which extends to nearly four feet and over, which, before their voluntary removal of railings which marked the limit of their premises, they could use as they pleased and as if it were within the walls of their house; if he is aware that the ancient railings were removed in concert with, but not enforced by, the Corporation of Dublin for the purposes of the uniform paving of the whole pathway, and on the distinct understanding that leasehold rights and ancient usage would not thereby be in any way changed, and that the corporation, which with the occupiers ought equitably be regarded as the joint controllers, are no party and have refused to be a party to the action of the police; and whether, having regard to these circumstances, which make the prosecutions, even if successful, a purely technical triumph, he will order the proceedings to be discontinued; and (2) whether the prosecutions recently taken by the Dublin police against traders in Great Britain Street were considered by the Law Officers of the Crown, and upon what evidence, before they were initiated, or whether they are the outcome of the unrestricted exercise of subordinate officials; and whether, to bring the administration of the law into harmony -with the people interested, he will direct that the local civic authority and the ratepayers generally be consulted before taking part in any further proceedings in order that, even if there is a technical offence, the matter may be adjusted in such a way that the occupiers of the premises may not be wholly deprived of the right of usage which they regarded as an asset when acquiring the property as leasehold, and at the same time limit the use to such a degree that no possible impediment to pedestrians can arise?

Several traders in the street referred to were summoned by the police for exposing goods for sale on the public footpath. The prosecutions falling within the ordinary police jurisdiction were not sufficiently important to bring before the Law Officers. Such prosecutions are general throughout the Dublin Metropolitan police district, and the defendants were legally represented, and it was open to them to have had all the matters referred to in the questions gone into before the magistrate who convicted in the cases. I am not aware that the public, who are the persons interested, have in any way disapproved of the course pursued.