I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words "forty-one million, twenty-seven thousand pounds" in order to insert instead thereof the words "five million pounds."

On a point of Order. Did I understand you, Sir, to say on a previous occasion to-day that it would be out of order to move any reduction.

That was as to the amount to be issued out of the Consolidated Fund, which must correspond with the Votes in Supply. This Clause refers to powers of temporary borrowing, and I do not see why it should not be competent to the hon. Member to propose the substitution of a lesser sum.

This is the normal Clause as it has been passed for—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"]

The right hon. Gentleman tells us that this is the normal Clause, and therefore apparently he is under the impression that it requires no justification. That impression apparently is shared by hon. Members opposite, because they cheered loudly when the right hon. Gentleman said that this was the normal Clause. Was not the Clause which we were discussing a few moments ago the normal Clause, and a much more normal Clause than the present one, because the other Clause had been approved by the House, whereas this is practically a new Clause which has never been submitted to the House and which confers upon the Government certain powers of borrowing? I hope this shows how very unsatisfactory is the state of affairs at the present moment, when hon. Gentlemen opposite consider it decent to conduct the affairs of the nation in this way—when they can waste time and be called to order, and when actually a right hon. Gentleman who is a Member of the Government, and occupies a prominent position on the Front Bench, rises to obstruct the proceedings and waste time. When there is a reason, and a very excellent reason, for not entrusting this Government with borrowing powers, the only Member of the Front Bench who got up is the right hon. Gentleman who obstructed the proceedings, and who now thinks that all it is necessary to say is that this is a normal Clause.

I want, with all respect, to make the submission to you, Sir, with regard to this Amendment and to your ruling, that it is in order. May I suggest to you that by accepting the hon. Baronet's Amendment we would deny borrowing powers to the Government, and, in effect, destroy the purpose of this Bill, and therefore it cannot be in order, because, if you deny the Government power to borrow, you deny them the power, in certain circumstances, of carrying on the services of this country.

That is not a point of Order. It is a question of the merits.

The reason I propose to vote with my hon. Friend on this Amendment is because the only defence against it was made by the right hon. Gentleman, who this afternoon did nothing but deliberately and purposely obstruct, the proceedings. That being so, unless the Government have someone else to put up in order to explain this matter other than the right hon. Gentleman, who by his conduct this afternoon has discredited himself, I for one shall not only vote for the Amendment, but shall take every means in my power to resist this proposal.

The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury's defence of this Clause was that it is a normal Clause. I am glad to think that the proceedings taken by the Government this afternoon are not the normal proceedings which Governments have habitually taken in the history of this House. Anything more disgraceful—

When the right hon. Gentleman was said to have used that word, and attention was called to it, I ruled that it was not a Parliamentary word, and I am sure the hon. Member will withdraw it.

If the hon. Member withdraws it, I will repeat it.

I rise to a point of Order. I believe, Sir, you have ruled that the word "disgraceful" is out of order. May I draw your attention to the fact that during the last Session this very point came up before the Speaker, who ruled that it was not out of order. I made objection respectfully to the Speaker and the Speaker ruled upon that occasion that the circumstances controlled the decision of the Chair in each case.

On a point of Order—

I will hear the hon. Gentleman in a moment, but I wish to answer the point of Order.

I submit, Sir, that your ruling on should be submitted to thee Clerk at the Table.

I always take the advice of those appointed to advise me when I think it necessary. The hon. Baronet the Member for Gravesend is quite correct in what he says, that there have been cases in which rulings have been given on that word "disgraceful" in both directions, and it remains for the Speaker or the Chairman, as the case may be, to use his discretion when the occasion, arises. There are in the books many precedents in either direction. This afternoon I stated that the word, if it were used by a Member of the Government, was one that I should not allow, and I think it would be well for the hon. Member for Down to withdraw it and obey my decision.

On a point of Order. May I submit to you, Sir, that the question submitted to the Speaker was as to the word "disgraceful," and it was decided that it depended on the circumstances in each individual case. But the fact that you ruled it out of Order when it was said the right hon. Gentleman opposite used it, in no way prevents an hon. Member on this side from describing as disgraceful, conduct which appears to him to be disgraceful. It is for you, Sir, to decide whether the use of the word "disgraceful" in not permissible under the circumstances in which my hon. Friend speaks.

I wish to ask you, Sir, on a point of Order, whether you have ruled the expression "disgraceful" with regard to this afternoon's proceedings as out of Order?

I said that if the word had been used by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury it was out of order, and I have decided similarly as to the observation of the hon. Member, and I am sure he will withdraw it.

Mr. Whitley, I beg to say they are disgraceful proceedings.

Whatever may have been done by other hon. Gentleman or right hon. Gentlemen in this. House, I wish to obey your ruling, Sir, and, whatever may be my private opinion as to these proceedings, and however much I may think in my own mind that they are disgraceful, I will conform to the tradi- tions of the House, and I will say that they are too discreditable even for this Government.

I wish to take the opportunity of saying in public what I think in private. I beg to say in public, in the most sincere manner at my command, that the proceedings this afternoon are a disgrace to the House of Commons, and I go further and I say that the action of the Secretary to the Treasury this afternoon was a piece of disgraceful trickery.

I call upon the hon. Member to withdraw the expression.

I understand, Sir, that you ask me to withdraw that expression. I absolutely refuse to do so.

I do not think that the temper of the House is agreeable to any Member of this Assembly, and I should like, if I can, to put an end to proceedings of which we do not approve. I am bound to state that I feel certain that if the Prime Minister had been present he would not have disagreed with me when I said that for what has happened the Government and the Government alone, in my judgment, are to blame. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."] What I wish to point out is—[An HON. MEMBER: "Is it a point of Order?"] By the admission of the right hon. Gentleman. [Interruption.] I think it is for the advantage of the House that I should say this. [Interruption, and an HON. MEMBER: "There is nothing before the House."]

I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman that I thought

made some observations which were inaudible.

When you put the Question just now, I rose in my place, and wished to continue the Debate. Earlier in to-day's proceedings, when an hon. Member opposite got up under very similar circumstances, you, having taken the advice of your advisers at the Table, allowed him to proceed, although you had already put the Question. Under those circumstances I claim to be allowed to address the House on this subject.

The hon. Member rose when the Question was put a second time. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO, no, the first time," and other HON. MEMBERS: "He did not rise the first time," and "Go on with the Division."]

Do not make the House of Commons into a pot-house.

I rose to address the House when he put the Question for the first time. [HON. MEMBERS: "You did not."]

I have another Amendment to move.

I wish to direct your attention to the fact that the hon. and learned Member for North Armagh, who a short time ago was directed by you to withdraw, is still present.

I did not go.

The hon. and gallant Member for North Armagh is, I think, himself directing my attention to that fact. I have to remind him of the Rules of the House, under which I am bound to act, when an hon. Member declines to have regard to the authority of the Chair, and that is to order that he withdraw from the remainder of this day's Sitting. Do I understand that he declines to do so?

I will take the opinion of the House on it. I do not think it is a fair ruling.

Will you turn out Masterman at the same time?

Turn out the pot-house crowd.

I must report the hon. Member to the House for having disregarded the authority of the Chair.

Was it the Clerk or the Chair?

I have to name the hon. and learned Member for North Armagh for disregarding the authority of the Chair, and the Sitting will be suspended pending the arrival of Mr. Speaker.

having taken the Chair,

Mr. Speaker, I regret that I have to report to you that it has been my duty to name the hon. and learned Member for North Armagh for having disregarded the authority of the Chair.

I beg to move, "That the hon. and learned Member for North Armagh be suspended from the service of this House."

Are we permitted to discuss this question? It seems to me a gross scandal.

Standing Order 18 says—

Then I should not be in order in including two or three hon. Members opposite who have behaved in a most abominable manner?

I do not know what has occurred in Committee.

It is just as well.

You having informed the House that you know nothing of what has taken place, will it be open to Members of the House to inform you?

There is no opportunity. I will inform myself to-morrow.

If the hon. Member is in the House, I must ask him to observe the Resolution of the House and to withdraw.

I have always obeyed your ruling with pleasure, and will do so on the present occasion.

Do not make a speech.

That interrupter also is entitled to be suspended from the House.

It was certainly a very improper observation.

A dirty cad!