House Of Commons
Thursday, 27th March, 1913.
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Bill (by Order),
Great Western Railway Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till To-morrow.
Bishop's Waltham Water Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Monday next.
Great Northern Railway Bill (by Order),
Hull and Barnsley Railway Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next, at a quarter-past Eight of the clock.
Pontypridd and Rhondda Joint Water Board Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till To-morrow.
Private Bills (Group A),
Mr. Hugh Law reported from the Committee on Group A of Private Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Monday next, at Twelve of the clock.
Report to lie upon the Table.
International Wheat Prices
Return ordered "Showing the average Prices of Wheat per Imperial quarter in the United Kingdom, France, Germany, and the United States in each year from 1840 to 1912, with particulars as to the rate of Import Duty leviable in each country during each year."—[ Mr. Dundas White.]
Commons
Ordered, That the Minutes of Evidence taken before the Select Committee on Commons in Session, 1912–13, be referred to the Select Committee on Commons.—[ Mr. Brunner.]
Buildings For Small Holdings In England And Wales (Departmental Committee)
Copy presented of Report of the Departmental Committee appointed by the President of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries to inquire and report as to Buildings for Small Holdings in England and Wales, together with Abstract of the Evidence, Appendices, and a Series of Plans and Specifications [by Command]; to lie upon the table.
National Insurance Act
Copy presented of Order made by the Irish Insurance Commission, dated 20th March, 1913, entitled the National Health Insurance (Transfer of Deposit Contributors) (Ireland) Order, 1913 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers To Questions
China (Reorganisation Loan)
1.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether the British Government continues to support what remains of the six-Power finance group in imposing upon China the conditions encroaching upon the administrative independence of China, on account of which the Government of the United States has withdrawn its support from the American section of that group; whether China will be left free to borrow on any terms satisfactory to lenders; and whether before the completion of any agreement for a loan involving the consequences indicated, this House will be informed of its full terms and conditions?
His Majesty's Government have no intention of departing from the policy which they have pursued hitherto in the matter of the Chinese Reorganisation Loan. I must again refer the hon. Member to replies which I have constantly given in the House to explain the true nature of that policy. I cannot make the promise asked in the last part of the question, and I deprecate the assumption that any loan will have the invidious consequences attributed to it by the hon. Member, though every loan to an individual or to a State entails certain obligations upon the borrower.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the French Government, for example, do not restrain their people from lending privately outside?
No, I am not aware of that.
Would the right hon. Gentleman defer all action until the meeting of the Chinese Parliament, in the middle of next month?
There is no reason for us to defer action; it is a question for the Chinese Government as to whether they intend to accept the loan.
Has the Government of China been recognised by His Majesty's Government, and if not—
We are getting a good deal away from the question.
4.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether in view of the fact that British financiers and contractors are willing to make advances to and enter into agreements with the Chinese Government, but hesitate to do so because they find, on inquiry, that such action would be disapproved by the Government, he will take steps to give such financial freedom to British interests as the financiers and contractors concerned feel to be desirable and which, undoubtedly, would be of value to British trade and industry?
I realise that there is an apparent hardship involved in the refusal of His Majesty's Government pending the negotiation and issue of the Chinese Reorganisation Loan, to give their approval to enterprises which British contractors desire to undertake in China, in so far as they mean an advance of money, direct or indirect, to the Chinese Government, but I am as fully convinced now as I was when His Majesty's Government embarked on the policy of co-operating with other Powers that that policy is ultimately to the advantage of British trade and industry, since it is, in my opinion, the only means by which Chinese credit can be securely established and conditions in China rendered favourable for industrial enterprise in the future. I am not prepared, therefore, to reconsider at present my decision to give exclusive support to the authorised British group. If this policy fails, and there is unrestricted competition to lend money to China, I must, of course, reconsider the whole situation, but I fear that it will result in competition between different countries to get political advantages in return for easy loans on improvident terms.
May I ask whether the effect of the Government's approval of the group arrangement does not restrict the opportunity and power of China to borrow, and whether, seeing that the American group has withdrawn, it may not prejudice British trading interests owing to the difference now in the circumstances?
I do not think that will be the result, because I think unrestricted competition will tend to very undesirable competition between the different nations to get political advantages in China in return for easy loans on improvident terms. If that is so, Chinese credit will be impaired, the effect on Chinese credit will be bad, and therefore not good for us.
Are not the people who were prepared to lend the best judges as to whether or not the terms are improvident?
I am afraid that is too much of a general rule to lay down. It is often the case that people are very anxious to make loans which are of immediate financial profit to themselves but not necessarily an advantage to the trade of this country or an advantage to the trade of the country that borrows.
Does the right hon. Gentleman—
I do not think we can carry this question further; it is really more suitable for Supply.
5.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether there are British banking houses and contracting firms which are willing to lend money to, and undertake work in, China, but are prevented because they find, on inquiry, that such action on their part would be regarded unfavourably at the Foreign Office, though they consider the security offered to them quite good and sound, and that the business would in every way be desirable and beneficial, particularly to the industrial classes in this country; and, if so, whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
I must refer the hon. Member to the answer which I have just given to the hon. Member for the Attercliffe Division of Sheffield.
6.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the terms on which the consortium of cosmopolitan bankers, formerly known as the Sextuple Group, offered to advance money to China were such that, if completed as designed, having regard to the suggested price of issue and rate of interest, the value of previously issued Chinese loans would, considered comparatively, have declined about 14 per cent.; and, in view of the fact that many British investors are interested in these previous Chinese issues, in the event of his supporting what remains of the group, what steps does he propose to take to prevent this artificial depreciation of the property of British investors for the advantage of persons of no nationality except such as may have been acquired for financial purposes?
His Majesty's Government have no concern with the purely financial aspect of the loan, which is a matter for the financiers to settle with the Chinese Government, and I am not aware that the latter are dissatisfied with the conditions proposed. His Majesty's Government cannot control the effect of the loan upon previous issues, but I may say that I believe the hon. Member's calculation to be without foundation in fact.
7.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, now that the financial consortium to take advantage of China's temporary difficulties in order to subject her to conditions adverse to her future progress has been broken by the refusal of the American Government to concur, whether, before supporting the remnant of the consortium in that attempt, he will take the opinion of this House on the conditions to be imposed upon China?
The hon. Member is at liberty to take one of the regular opportunities for raising this question, but His Majesty's Government have no intention of dissociating themselves from the action of the other Powers who still approve the policy which has been the basis of the reorganisation loan negotiations.
The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the last part of the question as to whether this House will have an opportunity of expressing its view?
I have answered the hon. Member; he is at liberty to take one of the regular opportunities for raising this question. There are several opportunities in the course of the Session.
8.
asked what is the attitude of the French Government to-wards the Franco-Belgian syndicate which has just been formed, in conjunction with the Chinese Government, to establish an industrial bank in China which, among other attributes, will have the power, if the agreement, already provisionally signed, be ratified, of floating loans and obtaining and exploiting concessions?
As I informed the hon. Member for Melton on the 26th instant, I am not aware of a scheme to establish an industrial bank in China, but I am making inquiries of His Majesty's Minister at Pekin.
9.
asked whether, in view of the official announcement that the American financiers have withdrawn from the sextuple group, the five groups which remain will be supported by their various Governments against any independent loan to China which may be floated in America and supported by the United States Government?
As far as His Majesty's Government are concerned, the answer is in the affirmative, and I have no reason to suppose that the other Powers interested will adopt a different course.
10.
asked the Secretary of State whether he has any information to the effect that a new American group has been formed to negotiate an independent loan with China; and whether, in view of the withdrawal of the United States Government, the quintuple Powers could object to this isolated action on the part of those who have hitherto co-operated with them?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative; to the second, in the affirmative. The hon. Member is, however, here assuming that a new American group would be composed of the group that has formed part of the Six-Power Consortium in the Reorganisation Loan negotiations. But I understand that this would not be possible until a specific period has elapsed, since each group is bound by agreement to give notice of its withdrawal from the Consortium, and it would be some time before it was free to take separate action on its own account.
11.
asked the Secretary of State whether he has received any expressions of opinion from British interests in the Far East, either for or against the methods of financing China as embodied in the proposals of the sextuple, now the quintuple, group loan; and will he, in view of the change in the situation produced by the withdrawal of the United States Government, lay any such representations before the House?
I have not officially received many expressions of opinion from the quarters referred to for or against the policy of His Majesty's Government in the matter of Chinese finance. Among the principal critics of the policy of His Majesty's Government were the Eastern Bank, and the correspondence that passed between them and the Foreign Office has already been published in Parliamentary Paper No. 2, 1912. Correspondence of a similar nature has likewise passed between the Foreign Office and the Chartered Bank but, in view of its similarity, I do not think its publication would be of interest.
12.
asked whether the United States was one of the four Powers originally co-operating in the proposal to finance China; whether this co-operation was, at least in part, based on previous joint collaboration in the work of railway finance in China; whether the subsequent participation of Russia and Japan in what became known as the sextuple group was either suggested or solicited by the four; and whether the withdrawal of one of the original founders of the international group substantially affects the possibility of attaining the objects for which the group was formed?
The answers to the first three parts of the question are in the affirmative. With regard to part four, the withdrawal of one group from the Consortium need not necessarily affect the prospects of a favourable settlement.
13.
asked the particulars of the formation of a China industrial bank in which, by agreement, the Chinese Government participates to the extent of one-third of the capital of 45,000,000 francs, the balance being provided by a Franco-Belgian syndicate; and whether this undertaking enjoys the support of the French Government, which is one of the signatories to the six-Power agreement?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on the 26th instant to the hon. Member for Melton and to-day to the hon. Member for East Nottingham. I have not got the information. I will inquire of the British Minister at Pekin.
Has the right hon. Gentleman any information as to whether the French Government is supporting the group?
I will inquire as to what is known of this scheme. When I know about the scheme I will inquire if there is any truth in the statement as to the attitude of the French Government.
14.
asked whether, in view of the fact that the President of the United States has told Mr. George B. Rea, a member of the Chinese Railway Commission, that his Government is now formulating a new policy with regard to China which will leave nothing undone legitimately to promote American interests, he will take steps to reconsider the Foreign Office financial policy towards China with a view to giving similar freedom to British interests?
As I have already stated, I have received no official intimation from the United States Government of a change of policy on their part with regard to Chinese finance, but His Majesty's Government have no intention of departing from the policy which they have hitherto pursued in the matter. It is not to the advantage of British or Chinese interests to encourage a policy of loans without guarantees either for their security or good use.
May I ask whether the political conditions do not involve the continuation of certain unpopular taxes which otherwise the Chinese Parliament might be free to abolish, and whether they necessarily will not be greatly hampered by other conditions if these taxes are to be continued under European control and management?
Of course all taxes are unpopular, but if you wish to borrow money there must be some security, and the usual security in cases of this kind is that some particular tax or source of revenue should be assigned for the services of the loan. Of course that is a condition which may not be popular, but it is a condition inseparable from borrowing at all if their is to be security for the loan.
15.
asked whether the same views of policy which actuated the British Government in its support of the Sextuple Group will similarly actuate it in its relations towards the same loan now that the United States has withdrawn; whether certain political conditions unconnected with this loan, to which China has objected, have not been put forward by various Powers; and whether British finance will remain identified with the old proposals while American finance, free from Government control, is placed in a more advantageous position to negotiate?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. No political conditions unconnected with the reorganisation loan have been put forward by the Powers. There are, of course, certain political considerations inherent in the loan question, but they are political only in the sense that they aim at assisting China to re-establish her political administration both in her own interests and in order to maintain her credit so as to create a favourable field for foreign trade and industry in the future. It was to secure these ends that the Powers attached certain conditions to their approval of the loan, and it was with their unanimous consent that these conditions were proposed to the Chinese Government. I can express no opinion in regard to the last point raised by the hon. Member. I do not think ill-secured or ill-employed loans will be advantageous to British interests, even if made by British financiers.
16.
asked whether, in view of the entirely new situation in regard to the financing of China created by the withdrawal of the United States from the so-called sextuple group, he will give the House of Commons an opportunity of discussing the future policy of the British Government towards China?
There are several opportunities during the Session for discussing foreign affairs, and it is for the House to decide what use is to be made of them.
Liberian Coast (German Gunboat "Panther")
2.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has information which he can communicate to the House regarding the prolonged presence of the German gunboat "Panther," at Monrovia and on the Liberian coast?
I hear from the British Consul-General at Monrovia that there are claims pending for damage to German factories and goods, but I have no special information on the subject of the "Panther's" visit.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these claims have been pending for an extremely long time, and that the "Panther" is becoming a fixture on the Liberian coast?
Many claims against Liberia are of some standing.
Castleisland Parish Committee
17.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland (1) what inquiries were made by the Congested Districts Board into the reasons for not placing the name of Mr. Peirce Gun Mahony, of Kilmurry, Castleisland, on the list of members of the Castleisland parish committee, and why it took the Board from the 27th June, 1912, to the 27th January, 1913, a period of seven months, to investigate and decide that Mr. Mahony's name should be placed on the list of members; (2) what reply the Congested Districts Board received to their letter of the 27th January, 1913, to the chairman of the Castleisland parish committee; (3) what date the Congested Districts Board placed Mr. Mahony's name on the list of members; (4) what were the reasons given by the Castleisland parish committee for questioning the qualification of Mr. Peirce Gun Mahony, to be an ex-officio member of the Castleisland parish committee as a resident landlord within the meaning of the rules, whether the parish committee consulted the Congested Districts Board with regard to the matter, what opportunity was given to Mr. Mahony of stating his views; and (5) what date the Congested Districts Board first communicated with the Castleisland parish committee in respect of their omission to place on the list of ex-officio members the name of Mr. Peirce Gun Mahony, and to send him notices of the meetings; on what date the Castleisland parish committee replied, and if he will lay upon the Table of the House a copy of the correspondence between the Congested Districts Board for Ireland and the Castleisland parish committee in reference to this matter?
The Congested Districts Board do not make out lists of parish committees. Under their rules all resident landlords in a parish are ex-officio members of these committees, which are called into existence each spring for a few months to administer certain Grants. The Board having learnt that Mr. Mahony had not been summoned to committee meetings last year inquired on the 27th June as to the reason and received a reply on the 30th stating that there had been some doubt as to whether he was a resident landlord. The work of the committee for 1912 was then over, and on the 20th December last before the committee for 1913 had met, the Board were furnished with a list on which Mr. Mahony's name appeared. The matter having been thus settled there was nothing to consult him about. The Board on the 27th of January called the attention of the chairman of the committee to the hon. Member's question for the following day and received a reply promising that the matter would receive attention. I see no necessity whatever for laying any of the correspondence on the Table of the House.
22.
asked what are the qualifications of Mr. Brian O'Connor, J.P., of Castleisland, entitling him to be placed on the list of members of the Castleisland parish committee?
Mr. Brian O'Connor being a magistrate residing within the parish of Castleisland is qualified to act as an ex-officio member of the parish committee.
23.
asked what were the qualifications of Mr. H. O'Connor, of the Fountain Bar, Castleisland, entitling him to be placed on the list of members of the Castleisland parish committee for the years 1911–12 and 1912–13?
The name of Mr. H. O'Connor, of Fountain Bar, Castleisland, does not appear on the list of members of the Castleisland parish committee.
Raheny (County Dublin) Petty Sessions
24.
asked the Chief Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the proceedings at the Raheny (county Dubin) Petty Sessions on Monday, the 17th instant, in the course of which the magistrate present, Captain Napier MacFarlane, in a speech from the bench, insulted the people of the locality and attacked the Home Rule Bill and its principal supporters; and whether he proposes to take any notice of this incident?
I have seen a newspaper report of the observations alleged to have been made by the magistrate on the occasion referred to, and whilst deprecating the action of any magistrate in referring from the bench to matters of an extraneous nature, wholly unconnected with the business before the Court, it would, I think, be attaching too much importance to the incident to take further notice of it.
Land Purchase (Ireland)
25.
asked what date the purchase agreements of the Colomb estate, near Kenmare, were lodged; whether this was effected with the Congested Districts Board or the Estates Commissioners; and when it is expected that the sale will be completed?
The hon. Member presumably refers to the estate of Rupert P. Colomb, situate in the townlands of Reen and Dunkerron, county Kerry, which is the subject of proceedings for sale direct by the owner to the tenants under the Irish Land Act, 1909. The purchase agreements were lodged with the Estates Commissioners in November last, and the estate will be dealt with in order of priority, but the Commissioners are not at present in a position to say when the sale will be completed.
33.
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman's attention has been called to an eviction last week on the estate of Mr. Simon White, of Glengarriffe Castle; whether he is aware that the father of Timothy Leary, the evicted tenant, built at his own expense the house on the holding from which Timothy Leary was evicted, and that prior to the famine of 1847 he paid his rent in cash and, seeing he could not continue to do so, paid it by labour, which was plentiful at that time; whether he is aware that Timothy Leary continued to pay in labour until recently, his wage being 1s. per day without board, when he obtained twice these wages on works opened in the district, but offered to pay in cash; and, seeing that this offer was refused and a decree to possession obtained against him, was the eviction then proceeded with, notwithstanding the illness of the children, ranging from fifteen years to a few months; and whether he will introduce in the coming Land Bill a provision that will prevent evictions of such a nature in future?
I am informed by the police that Timothy Leary was evicted in pursuance of a decree obtained at Skibbereen Quarter Sessions in October last, and was at once readmitted as a care-taken. So far as they are aware he had not offered to pay his rent in cash recently. One of his children had a cold at the time of the event, but the others were well. There does not appear to have been hardship in the case or anything calling for legislation.
If the right hon. Gentleman will peruse, after questions, some correspondence I have received, I think he will be convinced that this was one of the most cruel evictions ever perpetrated in Ireland.
I shall be glad to do so.
Irish Rouse Of Lords
20.
asked whether the ownership of the historical pictures in Irish tapestry in the Irish House of Lords was expressly conveyed to the Bank of Ireland with the tenancy of the building; if so, for what price or consideration; whose property they are now deemed to be; and what their estimated value is?
The Deed of Conveyance of the Parliament House at College Green to the Governors of the Bank of Ireland contains no reference to any tapestry. I have no information as to the remainder of the question.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whose property the tapestry is deemed to be at the present time?
That is a question I should not like to answer.
Caherciveen Rent Courts
28.
asked when the next sittings will be held in Caherciveen for the hearing of applications to have rents revised; and can he state the cause of the delay?
A sitting for the hearing of applications to fix judicial rents from the district of Caherciveen has been fixed for 15th April, and the list of the cases for hearing has been already issued to the parties interested.
National Education Inquiry (Ireland)
30.
asked whether, seeing that the committee of inquiry into Irish education has decided to sit in private, excluding the Press from its sittings, and that on this account the teachers have refused to give evidence before it, he will give directions that further expenses will not be paid if the inquiry is continued in private?
The mode of conducting their proceedings is a matter for the Committee, and the course suggested by the hon. Member is not one that could be adopted.
May I ask whether in his recollection of Commissions of Inquiry the right hon. Gentleman has known of any conducted as this is—privately?
I should not like to answer that question at a moment's notice, but it is perfectly certain the Commission had the power of saying whether it would sit in public or private.
Evicted Tenants (Ireland)
31.
asked whether the application of Mrs. O'Brien, Castlemaine, county Kerry, for reinstatement, has been inquired into; and, if so, what do the Commissioners propose to do in her case; and, seeing that she and her ancestors held the lands from which she was evicted for over seventy years, will the Commissioners give some explanation for the delay in dealing with her case?
The Estates Commissioners received an application from Johanna O'Brien for reinstatement in a holding formerly occupied by her as subtenant on the estate of Lord Monteagle, county Kerry, and now in the possession of a tenant purchaser, and decided not to take any action in the matter of her application.
Is it not a fact that this lady and her ancestors have been in possession of this land for over seventy years?
That may be so, but under the circumstances, if any arrangement is to be made it must be by agreement.
May I ask what has become of the compact entered into under the so-called blessed Act of 1903 that was to restore all the evicted tenants?
Many of the evicted tenants have been reinstated.
Secondary Education (Ireland)
32.
asked whether the promised Grant of £40,000 towards secondary education in Ireland will be available for the school year ended June, 1913; whether secondary education in Ireland at present receives no Grant from the Treasury, while England and Scotland have been receiving large Grants for this service for years, with the result that secondary education in Ireland is in a hopeless condition; whether he is aware that the public bodies, the teachers, and all prominent educationalists have demanded for years a Grant for secondary education in Ireland proportionate to that given in England and Scotland; and whether, seeing that there is practically no opposition to his scheme, he will take steps to have this Grant made available for the year ending June, 1913?
The Grant referred to was promised conditionally to improve the condition of teachers in secondary schools and for no other purpose. The question of the comparative amounts granted for secondary education generally in England, Scotland, and Ireland does not arise in connection with it. Until the objections raised to the draft scheme for the distribution of the Grant have been disposed of it is impossible to say when it can come into operation.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that education is suffering severely in consequence of not giving this Grant?
This is a special Grant for a special purpose and cannot be compared with the Grants to England and Scotland.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say who in Ireland is objecting to the giving of this Grant?
I cannot answer that.
Technical Schools (Ireland)
34.
asked if the right hon. Gentleman's attention has been called to a resolution passed by the county Wexford committee of agriculture and technical instruction requesting the Government to provide funds for the purpose of erecting technical schools in Ireland; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?
The resolution mentioned has been received. I can only refer the hon. Member to my reply to the question of the hon. Member for North Wexford on the 14th instant.
42.
asked what moneys are at present available for the building of technical schools in Ireland; whether he is aware that classes otherwise successful are handicapped by the want of suitable buildings in which to carry on their work, and that representations have been repeatedly made by the public bodies in Ireland for better facilities for erecting suitable buildings; and whether, seeing the importance of the work and the interest taken in it throughout the whole of Ireland, he will take steps to obtain a Treasury Grant for the required buildings?
Local authorities are empowered to raise moneys by loan for the purpose of erecting technical school buildings. It is the case that classes otherwise successful are handicapped by the want of suitable buildings. With regard to a special Grant for the purpose of such buildings, I can only refer the hon. Member to my reply to the question of the hon. Member for North Wexford on the 14th instant on the subject.
Assignment Of Farms (Ireland)
36.
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that it is the usual practice in Ireland for the father on the marriage of his eldest son to assign the farm, stock, and general effects thereon to the latter, reserving specifically for his wife and himself certain rights and privileges, and that if there be any dispute about the extent of these or in regard to the non-compliance of the son with the reservations in the deed they are strictly construed by the county court judge and a value put upon what is actually reserved by the father; and, seeing that in such a case the county court judge cannot take into account the carrying power or area of the farm, will he say by what right or process therefore the Local Government Board takes these matters into its consideration when fixing the income of old people who have assigned their farms under circumstances which do not come within Section 4 (3) of the Pensions Act of 1908; and can he explain by what method of calculation the Local Government Board came to the conclusion that the maintenance of Cornelius Dinneen and his wife, of Rathduane, Millstreet, both of whose claims were passed by the pensions committee, was value for over £63 a year on a farm of sixty-three acres?
The practice of marriage assignments is well known, but, while a Court of Law is only concerned with the actual reservations in the deed of assignment, the Local Government Board have to take into account all the benefits and privileges enjoyed by the claimant in virtue of his residence on the farm. As regards Dinneen's case, I have nothing to add to my previous answer.
Coolavokig National School (Dismissal Of Teacher)
37 and 41.
asked (1) whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that Patrick Galvin, the late principal teacher of Coolavokig National School, Macroom, was dismissed, after over thirty-eight years' service, because, as the manager alleges, he sent school children to a public-house for porter; was the school being whitewashed at the time, and was the statement of the teacher that he sent for necessary refreshment for the whitewasher; whether the manager agreed to reinstate the teacher on certain conditions; were these conditions fulfilled, and, if so, why did the manager withdraw from them and force out this teacher when he was within a year and a half of the time when he would be retired on full pension; will the Commissioners of National Education order an independent inquiry into all the circumstances of the case and endeavour to find a means by which the school-going children of the district may be no longer deprived of the educational facilities so necessary for them; and (2) if the Commissioners of National Education have made any inquiries as to the circumstances under which the assistant teacher of Coolavokig school, Macroom, Mrs. Mary Galvin, was refused the right to continue teaching in the school; whether he is aware that she went to attend the school on the morning of 9th October, 1912, as usual, but could not enter, as the new teacher had taken the school key the previous evening; whether, on the following morning, she went again, accompanied by some school children, but was refused admission by the district inspector of constabulary, who was within; whether it was by the order of the manager that this district inspector so acted; whether Mrs. Galvin is a first-class teacher, holding the Board's certificate in Irish, science, and all other subjects required by the Commissioners of National Education; had she previously conducted the school business with efficiency in the absence of the principal; whether any local hostility would have been exhibited had the school been left in her charge; whether the manager acted within his powers, as set forth in the rules and regulations of the Commissioners, in closing the school against her; has any decision yet been come to as to the payment of her salary; and whether the Commissioners have in any way given their sanction to the action of the manager in this matter or their approval to the appointment of the new principal teacher made by him?
This matter will be considered by the Commissioners of National Education at their next meeting, and in the meantime it is not desirable to prejudice the case by discussing its details. I am, therefore, not in a position at present to add anything to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to a question on the subject on the 17th instant. This answer also applies to Question No. 41.
Pauper Lunatics (County Down)
38.
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman's attention has been called to the deficit in the Capitation Grant towards the cost of maintenance of pauper lunatics in asylums in Ireland; and whether, in view of the fact that, in the county of Down alone, the deficit for the year ending 31st March, 1911, amounted to £1,019 11s. 11d., he is prepared to take any and, if so, what steps to see that the original amount of the Capitation Grant is duly available for the local authorities?
The attention of my right hon. Friend has been called to this matter. As already stated, the whole question of local taxation is under the consideration of the local taxation committee, and it is not possible to make any statement on the subject at present.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give me an assurance that the Treasury will keep faith with the local authorities in this matter, and will he bring this question to the notice of the Treasury?
Yes, my right hon. Friend is already in communication with the Treasury on this matter.
Mental Deficiency Bill
39.
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman will during this Session introduce a Mental Deficiency Bill applicable to Ireland, in view of the fact that a separate Bill has been promised for Scotland?
I am not in a position to give any undertaking on the subject.
How can the right hon. Gentleman justify that course in the case of a part of the United Kingdom which most needs a Bill to deal with the mentally deficient when England and Scotland are going to be dealt with?
Ennybegs National School (Ireland)
40.
asked if the right hon. Gentleman is aware that the principal teacher of Ennybegs national school, Roll No. 14,472, was informed by the Commissioners of National Education (Ireland), that he had been promoted to first-of-first grade from 1st April. 1909, for highly efficient service; that this teacher had to wait one year and three months before he received the salary attached to the higher grade, which according to Rule 105 (a) should have been paid on promotion; that the violation of this rule caused the teacher to lose £15; that the satisfactory service given from 1st April, 1909, to 30th June, 1910, is not counted in awarding his next triennial increment, thereby causing a further loss to this teacher during the four years ending 31st March, 1913, of £12; if this holding up of his service violates Rule 108 (b); and whether this teacher was informed in January, 1911, that his first promotion notice was to be regarded as cancelled and to date from 1st July, 1910, and, if this cancelling of the first notice is contrary to Rule 104 (a), was the rule sanctioned by the Lord Lieutenant; and, if so, will he recommend that the vested rights of this teacher be respected?
The Commissioners of National Education inform me that Mr. Michael McEvoy, the principal teacher of this school, qualified for promotion to the first section of the first grade from 1st April, 1909, but he cannot receive payment of salary at the rate attached to that grade nor can his service begin to count towards his next triennial increment until a vacancy occurs. Awards of increment are made under Rule 108 (b), but these increments of good service salary can only be granted to teachers already in receipt of their grade salaries for at least three years. He was not told that he was to regard the first notice of promotion as cancelled. Rule 104 (a), which was approved by the Irish Government and the Treasury, lays down the conditions of promotion, but such promotion cannot take place unless there are vacancies.
When do the Treasury propose to give sufficient money to do away with this practice?
That question had better be put to the Chief Secretary on Tuesday when he returns.
Irish Agricultural Organisation Society
43.
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether the Government has granted the financial assistance to the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society that was recommended by the Development Commissioners; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?
I shall feel obliged to the Noble Lord if he will postpone his question until Monday. The Prime Minister has promised to make a statement on the subject on that day, in reply to a question of the hon. Baronet the Member for Mid-Armagh. If, after the Prime Minister makes his statement, the Noble Lord desires to ask me any question, I shall be ready to make such answer as may be necessary.
Department Of Agriculture, Ireland (Expenditure)
44.
asked when the Return, moved for and granted on the 16th January, on the subject of administrative expenditure under his Department will be issued?
It is expected that the Return referred to will be ready in a few days.
British African Colonies (Currency Proposals)
45.
asked the Prime Minister whether, seeing that the question of silver purchases for the Government of India is about to be investigated by a Royal Commission, he will consider the advisability of suspending the currency proposals of the Committee which has just reported on the British African Colonies and Protectorates, so that some joint plan for these silver purchases for India and Africa may be arrived at, thus obviating an expensive competition in the silver market on the part of two different Government agencies?
This matter has already engaged the attention of the Currency Board, which has been formed in accordance with the recommendations of the Committee referred to. The Board do not anticipate that their demands will have any appreciable effect upon the price of silver, mainly because the new coinage will only to a limited extent create a new demand, as it replaces the British coinage now current, and will consequently reduce the requirements of the Royal Mint. Further, the actual amount of silver required on any particular occasion of purchase will be too small to disturb the market.
East India Revenue Accounts
46.
asked the Prime Minister if he can state approximately when the East India Revenue Accounts will be taken; and whether he will endeavour to arrange for a comparatively early day?
I am not in a position to make any statement at present.
Payment Of Rates Bill
47.
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman will give facilities to the Payment of Rates Bill during the present Session?
The answer is in the negative.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not think it fair that the ratepayers should learn the real incidence of socialistic legislation and see how it is at present masked?
The question is whether I should give facilities for this Bill, and my reply is that the Government time is fully occupied.
Established Church (Wales) Bill
49.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in framing the Closure Resolutions for the discussion of the Established Church (Wales) Bill this Session, he will provide that those Clauses which were passed without any debate last Session shall be fully discussed this time?
I must ask the Noble Lord to wait for the proposals of the Government on the subject.
77.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, under the Established Church (Wales) Bill, the Church in Wales, when Disestablished, will enjoy the same rights and privileges as regards tenure of property as have been conferred upon the dissenting bodies in Wales by the Dissenters Chapels Act, 1844?
The answer is in the negative. An express application of the Act of 1844 to the Church in Wales would have no effect, inasmuch as the rights and privileges conferred by that Act are conferred only so far as there is no instrument under which any particular religious doctrines or opinions or mode of regulaitng worship are required to be taught or observed, or are forbidden to be taught or observed, and this will not be the case as respects the Church in Wales when Disestablished.
78.
asked whether the Established Church (Wales) Bill entitles him to advise His Majesty to refuse to incorporate by charter the representative body of the Church in the event of the constitution of the body not meeting with his approval; and whether it is his intention so to advise His Majesty in that contingency?
The rights and duties of His Majesty's Ministers to tender advice to His Majesty depend on the unwritten constitution and not on any Act of Parliament. The latter part of the Noble Lord's question is a hypothetical quesion, which does not seem to require consideration at the present time.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether he intends to withhold the charter from the representative body of the Church in Wales if the constitution of the body does not meet with his approval?
That is the precise question which the Noble Lord has put upon the Paper. It is a hypothetical question, and I will answer it if and when the circumstance arises.
Government Land Policy
50.
asked whether the recent further postponement of the promulgation of the Government's land policy is again due to the Balkan crisis?
I am not aware of any promised announcement having been postponed. The policy of the Government will be announced in due time.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say what he means by "in due time"?
No, Sir.
Irish Cattle Trade
51.
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the complaints of Irish stock-owners as to the treatment of their animals at English ports since the recent Order enforcing twelve hours' detention came into operation; whether complaints have been made as to the whole system now in force; and whether, having regard to the conflict of testimony between the Board's officials on this side and the Irish owners as to what actually takes place, he will, in order to elucidate the truth, appoint a Committee to take evidence and report generally upon a matter so vital to Ireland as the preservation of the cattle trade between the two countries?
My right hon. Friend, in answer to recent questions on this subject, has repeatedly expressed his readiness to investigate any specific complaints which may be made to him, but he informs me that up to the present time no substantial evidence in support of the general allegations referred to has been submitted to him. In the circumstances I can see no necessity for the appointment of a Committee, as suggested by the hon. Member.
52.
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been directed to the promises made by Ministers when introducing and during its passage through both Houses of Parliament of the Contagious Diseases Animals Act, 1878, that Ireland would be treated as part of the United Kingdom or, as was then stated by a Minister, the same as one county in England would be treated as compared with another; and whether, having regard to what took place last year when Ireland was treated in a way intended for a foreign country, he will appoint a Committee to take evidence and report whether the Act has been administered in accordance with the pledges given by Ministers of the Crown or in direct opposition to them?
I understand that the action of the Board of Agriculture last year, to which the hon. Member refers, was taken under Section 22 of the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894. The restrictions imposed upon the admission of Irish animals into Great Britain were such as might be imposed at any time, if necessity should arise, in respect of any other part of the United Kingdom to prevent the spread of infection. I do not think that any useful purpose would be served by adopting the suggestion made by the hon. Member.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he has had his attention directed to the promises made by Ministers when the Act was passing through the House?
Not otherwise than by the question of the hon. Member.
If I send them to the right hon. Gentleman will he consider them?
With pleasure.
National Insurance Act
Pauper's Purchase Of A Pony
27.
asked whether the attention of the Local Government Board has been drawn to the case of a man named John Kelly, a pauper in receipt of outdoor relief of the value of 6s. a week from the Bandon Board of Guardians, who was able to pay 50s. for a pony distrained for refusal to pay contributions under the Insurance Act; whether this man states that he was commissioned to act as emergency man on the occasion, but declines to say by whom he was sup- plied with money; and whether the Local Government Board will order an inquiry into the whole transaction and the discontinuance of the outdoor relief?
The Local Government Board have made inquiry from the clerk of the union and find the relief to Kelly and his family, 6s. a week, was continued up to the 15th instant, when it was struck off by the guardians on the report of the relieving officer that Kelly had purchased a pony some days before for which he paid £2 10s., and afterwards sold it at a considerable profit. When Kelly was before the guardians on the 15th instant he informed them that he acted in the matter only as agent for another person, whose name he refused to give, and he also refused to state what profit he made on the resale of the pony. There does not appear to be any necessity for further inquiry.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say how it was possible for a man to purchase from another and yet not purchase for himself?
But did he purchase for himself?
Will the right hon. Gentleman see that the Local Government Board at all events do not mean to insist upon the ratepayers paying outdoor relief for a Treasury emergency man forcing this Act upon the country?
This was the act of the local guardians.
What I want to know is whether the Local Government Board intend to interfere with the action of the guardians?
No, they do not.
East Sussex Insurance Committee
55.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if his attention has been called to the correspondence between the Newhaven Rural District and the East Sussex Insurance Committee regarding the case of Thomas Avis, an insured person, who was sent on the 16th September last, as a matter of great urgency, by the Newhaven Rural District Council to the Lewes Sanatorium, and who was on the 7th October recommended by the East Sussex Insurance Committee for sanatorium benefit in the said sanatorium, but who nevertheless refuse to pay for the treatment between 16th September and 7th October; and whether, in the interests of insured persons, he will see that local bodies shall not be thus penalised for acting on the recommendation of their medical officer of health in cases of urgency?
I am informed that before application for sanatorium benefit was made to the East Sussex Insurance Committee, or the case was in any way brought to their notice, the Newhaven Rural District Council took the responsibility of sending the insured person to the Lewes Sanatorium. Application for benefit was first made to the committee on 28th September, and the case was recommended for benefit from 7th October, from which date the committee have accepted responsibility. The administration of sanatorium benefit is a matter for the insurance committee, and I have no power to take any action in the matter.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question: "whether, in the interest of insured persons, he will see that local bodies shall not be thus penalised for acting on the recommendation of their medical officer of health in cases of urgency?"
I think it is very difficult for the insurance committee to make a general announcement.
Does the right hon. Gentleman think it is in the interests of insured persons to refuse to refund local authorities who have acted in cases of emergency, when afterwards it was clearly admitted that it was a bonâ fide case of emergency, and, further, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the delay was occasioned by the fact that the Local Government Board had not then approved the Lewes Sanatorium?
No, I am not aware of that, but I think substantial justice is done.
Board Of Works (Maintenance Contracts)
56.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware of the terms of the maintenance contracts made by the Board of Works with contractors in Glasgow, whereby the contractor is to supply labour in day work in consideration of a payment by the Commissioners of His Majesty's Works and Public Buildings of the amount actually paid in wages to the men with an addition of 6¼ per cent. in respect of services and expenses; whether in the case of one contractor in Glasgow the wages amount roughly to £2,000 per year, so that the 6¼ per cent. out of which the contractor must pay workmen's compensation, third-party risk insurance, and the maintenance of the necessary scaffolding, tackle, tools, etc., amounts to about £125 per year; whether the insurance contributions which, under the Act, must be paid by the contractor, amount to a total of about £1 per week or £50 per annum, which represents the whole of the profit on the contract; whether the Board of Works have submitted the whole case of the effect of the Act on these special contracts to the Treasury, and the Treasury have refused to grant permission to the Board of Works to grant relief to the contractors by varying existing contracts, or otherwise; and whether, in view of the fact that the contract has been specifically framed in order to relieve the contractor of any risk of a rise in wages or in the cost of labour, and that the Government has by the National Insurance Act materially varied the conditions with a special view to which the contract was framed, the Treasury will sanction such variation of the contract as in the opinion of the Board of Works the equities of the case may demand?
57.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware of the maintenance contracts made by the Board of Works with contractors in Edinburgh; and of the effect upon the contractors of the addition of the insurance contributions upon their profits; and what action he proposes to take?
The circumstances referred to have been brought to my notice, but I fear I am not yet in a position to make any statement with regard to them.
When shall I put down the question again?
Oh, in a few days' time.
Approved Societies
58.
asked what is the total number of societies approved under the National Insurance Act in England and Wales; how many of these have their re- gistered head offices on licensed premises, and of these how many invite women to membership; whether the Insurance Commissioners have approved any newly formed societies which proposed to hold their meetings on licensed premises; and do any of these invite women to membership?
Two thousand one hundred and fifty-nine societies have been approved by the English Commission, and 241 societies, with head offices in England and Wales, have been approved by the Joint Committee. Of these 455 have head offices on licensed premises, and 248 of these admit women to membership. So far as can be ascertained, no newly formed societies, whether admitting women or not, propose to hold their meetings on licensed premises. The Welsh Commission have approved 169 societies, and have issued regulations prohibiting them from holding their meetings on licensed premises.
May I ask whether the English Comissioners do not contemplate issuing any instructions analogous to those issued by the Welsh and Scotch Commissioners?
I believe the subject is under consideration. I think it is one of the subjects which will in due course be laid before the Advisory Committee.
Scottish Clerks' Association
61.
asked whether for ten years before the commencement of the National Insurance Act the Scottish Clerks' Association had a system of medical benefit whereby members called in their own doctors and had refunded to them by the society the doctors' fees and cost of medicine up to 4s. per visit; whether the system worked well and gave great satisfaction to members; whether, in the opinion of the Insurance Commissioners, this system of medical benefit is a suitable one through which to permit insured persons to make their own arrangements under Section 15, Sub-section (3), of the Act; whether one of the largest insurance committees has refused to allow members of the Scottish Clerks' Association to make their own arrangements under this system; the grounds of this refusal; and whether the Commissioners propose to take any steps to advise insurance committees on this subject?
I am aware that the association referred to had special arrangements for the medical attendance of their members. It is primarily the duty of the insurance committees concerned to consider whether, in view of these arrangements and of any other local circumstances, members of the association could properly be allowed to make their own arrangements under Section 15 (3) of the Act, and the Scottish Commissioners, after considering all the circumstances, do not feel justified in interfering with the discretion of the insurance committees in the matter.
Have Commissioners never taken it upon themselves to advise committees as to what they think is the best way of carrying out the Act?
I think a general circular has been sent out in respect to the various classes of persons who may appropriately be given special arrangements.
May I ask whether, in the opinion of the Commissioners, the arrangements of this society are suitable for members making their own arrangements under Sub-section (3)?
I should have to communicate with the Commissioners before I could answer that question.
Territorial Force
62.
asked how many members of the Territorial Force are insured persons; and what would be the cost to the State of exempting such persons and their employers, in respect of them, from all contributions under the National Insurance Act during their service in the force?
It is estimated very roughly that about 240,000 and 35,000 members of the Territorial Force are insured for health and unemployment respectively. The cost to the State of paying from public funds all contributions during service in the force instead of during training, would be roughly £400,000 a year.
Sanatorium Treatment
64.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether complaints are being made as to the daily routine, the quality of the food, the small amount of food provided for each patient, and the general treat- ment of patients at the Udal Torre sanatorium in Devonshire; whether this is as contemplated by the Government under the National Insurance Act; and whether he will cause an immediate inquiry to be opened into the matter?
On learning that certain insured persons in Wales who had been accommodated in the sanatorium referred to had complained as to their treatment, the Welsh Commissioners made an immediate investigation. The medical officer of the commission has visited the institution and interviewed all the thirty-one patients still under treatment, and after full inquiry the Commissioners are satisfied that the complaints are devoid of substance. It appears that certain of the patients disliked the discipline and regular routine which in the patients' own interests are essential as part of curative treatment in a sanatorium, and in some cases experienced some preliminary discomfort through being previously unaccustomed to open-air life. The Commissioners are satisfied that neither the complaints as to routine nor those as to the quality or quantity of food are justified. With regard to the latter they understand that the patients have increased in weight during their stay in the sanatorium. I may add that a number of patients on hearing that certain complaints had been made volunteered the statement that they had no similar complaints, and that in their opinion everything possible was being done for their benefit.
Appointment Of Committees (Party Representation)
50.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he has observed that, on the Committee of Selection, on the Chairmen's Panel, on the Unopposed Bills Committee Panel, on Standing Committees A, B, and C, on the Kitchen Committee, on the Select Committee on Marconi Contracts, on the Select Committee on the Putumayo Atrocities, and on the Treasury Committee to inquire into the extension of medical benefit to Ireland, the seventy-four Members of the party of which the hon. and learned Member for Waterford is Chairman receive a representation in all of thirty-eight Members, while the ten Irish Nationalists who do not belong to that party receive no representation at all on any Committee of the House; and whether any steps will be taken to redress the inequality?
If the hon. Member and his Friends desire representation on Standing Committees, I would suggest that they communicate with the Chairman of the Committee of Selection. With regard to Select Committees, as the representation of parties is in proportion to their relative numbers, I am afraid that the various parties in the House would not regard ten Members as being entitled to a separate representation on small Committees consisting of nine to fifteen Members.
Does the hon. Gentleman think it a fair representation of parties in this House that a party of seventy-four should have thirty-eight representatives, while ten Members have no representation at all upon any of the Committees of this House? Is that fair?
I think the House appoints a Committee by itself without reference to the general body of Members on all the Committees; but, with regard to the Standing Committees, where the parties are entitled to one in ten, it would appear that the hon. Member and his Friends are entitled to one Member upon the Standing Committees.
Then why have they not got it?
I suggest that the hon. Member should apply to the Chairman of the Selection Committee.
Oh, we are not going begging to anybody.
Tobacco Growing (Ireland And Scotland)
60.
asked what were the respective sums granted to Ireland and to Scotland in the year 1912 for the encouragement of tobacco growing in these countries?
The following sums were paid to tobacco growers out of Excise revenue in the calendar year 1912 as rebate of one-third of the duty paid on tobacco grown in Ireland and Scotland, namely:—
On tobacco grown in Ireland | £492 | 18 | 11 |
On tobacco grown in Scotland | 57 | 11 | 6 |
In respect of Irish tobacco, the amount paid relates solely to the crop of 1908 or previous years. For crops of subsequent growth the rebate has been replaced by an annual Grant of £6,000 (for five years, 1909–10 to 1913–14) to the Irish Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for the encouragement of the industry.
British Museum (Arthur Morrison Collection)
63.
asked when and where the Arthur Morrison collection of Japanese and Chinese paintings will be housed in connection with the British Museum, and whether there will in future be a separate department for Oriental paintings and prints?
I understand that the Morrison Collection will be transferred to the British Museum in the course of next month, and will be housed provisionally in the existing department of prints and drawings pending the transfer of that Department to the new wing. A sub-department of Oriental prints and drawings has recently been created.
Emigration
65.
asked the President of the Board of Trade the number of emigrants from this country for the year ending 31st December, 1912, and for the year 1902, respectively?
In the Returns made to the Board of Trade previous to April, 1912, emigrants were not distinguished from other passengers proceeding to countries out of Europe. It has been usual to estimate the volume of emigration on the basis of the excess of passengers of British nationality leaving the United Kingdom for countries out of Europe over the arrivals of British passengers from those countries in the United Kingdom. This excess amounted to 101,547 in 1902 and to 268,486 in 1912. The figure for 1912 is subject to correction when the revision of the lists now in progress is completed; and I may add that in 1902 the Returns were, in part, voluntary, instead of, as now, compulsory (under the Merchant Shipping Act of 1906); they may, consequently, have been to a small extent incomplete.
Colour-Vision Tests
66.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to adverse criticisms of the system of colour and form vision-test that it is proposed to adopt for the mercantile marine; whether he is aware that Dr. Eldridge-Green's lamp and system are in use in testing for colour-vision in the British Navy and in Germany and is used by the principal railway companies of Great Britain; whether he is aware that Dr. Eldridge-Green's system has the approval of all the members of the Ophthalmological Society with the exception of a minute minority; and whether he still favours tests for the British mercantile marine which will be at variance with those adopted in the Royal Navy, by the railway companies, and by the most progressive and scientific Continental nations?
I am quite aware that differing views as to vision-tests are held, and that no one system of test has been universally adopted. As the hon. Member has already been informed, the question of suitable sight tests for persons serving in the mercantile marine has recently been considered by a very strong Committee whose recommendations the Board of Trade propose to adopt.
Foreshore Turf (Nigg Bay, Ross-Shire)
67.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the Crown entered into an agreement recently with regard to foreshore sea-turf in Nigg Bay, Ross-shire, agreeing to sell certain acres of it at a certain price and acknowledging the receipt of that sum; whether he is aware that, when the purchaser attempted to take possession of his purchase, the local landlord, the Countess of Cromartie, raised an action of interdict against him and prevented him from taking possession; and, seeing that from time immemorial the local public have used this sea-turf for local purposes without interference, will he say what steps the Crown proposes to take now to implement its part of the contract?
My hon. Friend is under a misapprehension in supposing that the Crown has entered into any agreement for the sale of foreshore sea-turf in Nigg Bay, Ross-shire. A certain individual made an offer to purchase sea-turf, and while his offer was under consideration he, without invitation, remitted the amount which he himself had named. The receipt of the amount was formally acknowledged as a matter of ordinary business courtesy, pending inquiry locally. It appears from that inquiry that the sea-turf in question is above high water mark of ordinary spring tides and therefore not within the jurisdiction of the Crown. The applicant has been so informed and the amount forwarded by him has been returned.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what expert has been sent down to view this property?
I must ask my hon. Friend to give me notice of that question.
School Accommodation (Luton)
68.
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware of the lack of school accommodation at Luton, where 58 per cent. of the elementary scholars are in fourteen departments in which the average attendance exceeds the accommodation; and what action he proposes to take?
The hon. Member's figures appear to be taken from the returns for the school year, 1910–11. Since then 570 school places in all have been added at four schools, and the Board have now before them proposals to provide 1,300 further places in provided and 300 further places in non-provided schools. The returns for the last school year show an excess of average attendance over accommodation of seventy-seven units, spread over four departments only. The overcrowding in three departments will be met by alterations now in progress at a provided school, and in the fourth by the erection of a new provided school, the plans for which have been received by the Board.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the very rapid increase in population and the development of house property in Luton and is he keeping the local authorities up in pace with the demand?
The facts are well known both to the local authority and the Board of Education.
Are you doing your duty?
Teachers' Examination Tests
69.
asked the President of the Board of Education whether the standard of the examination test or the standard for obtaining the certificate is higher for acting teachers than for teachers in the training colleges?
The standard which candidates are required to reach as a condition of obtaining the certificate is not intended to be, and is not, in fact, in the Board's opinion, higher for acting teachers than for students in training colleges. But an exact comparison between the two examinations is impossible as the conditions under which they are held necessarily differ widely.
70.
asked whether the standard in the acting teachers' examination has been raised in recent years; if so, when it was raised, and what the standard now is?
The standard for a pass in the acting teachers' examination was raised a little in each of the years from 1907 to 1910. It has not been raised in the last two years. It is impossible to state what the standard is within the limits of an answer. The standard of an examination depends on the character of the questions set and on the degree of proficiency looked for by the examiners in the answers of candidates.
Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that the standard was raised in 1907 and again in 1908, higher than the previous year, and again raised in 1909–10?
The answer is in the affirmative.
71.
asked whether the present high standard required in the acting teachers' examination is asked for in order that there may he a restriction in the number of passes, in order to induce acting teachers to seek admission to the training colleges?
The present standard in the acting teachers' examination is required because it is considered by the Board to be the minimum standard which should entitle a candidate to receive a certificate and is not imposed for any other reason.
Education Bill
72.
asked the President of the Board of Education if the education scheme outlined by the Lord Chancellor on Tuesday last at the annual conference of the National Union of Teachers represents the settled policy of the Government in respect of national education; and, if so, whether he can state what part, if any, of such scheme it is proposed to carry through by means of legislation this Session?
I must refer the hon. Member to the report of the Lord Chancellor's speech, in which he stated clearly that he was not in any way outlining the Government's proposals.
Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to introduce any Education Bill in this Session?
Yes.
Education (Choice Of Employment) Act
73.
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is in agreement with the resolution recently passed at the annual conference at Bangor of the School Attendance Officers National Association, to the effect that the experience of attendance officers is the best possible preparation and qualification for the post of executive officer under the Education (Choice of Employment) Act, 1910; and, if so, whether he will reconsider the decision, recently embodied in a Departmental circular, that the possession of a university degree is necessary for the holders of such offices?
I have no reason to suppose that the local education authorities who appoint executive officers under the Choice of Employment Act do not appreciate the qualifications of attendance officers for the posts, and I do not think it is necessary or desirable for me to express any opinion on the point. The Board have never even suggested that the possession of a university degree is a necessary qualification for the holders of such posts.
School Clinics
74.
asked the President of the Board of Education whether, when requested by local education authorities, he has allowed the time spent by school children in attending the oculist's surgery to be reckoned towards the minimum period required under Article 43 of the Code for the purposes of a Grant; and, if so, whether he can see his way to allow the time spent by school children in attending the school clinic, on or adjacent to the school premises, provided by the local education authority for the treatment of other ailments, to be reckoned towards the minimum period required under Article 43 for the purposes of a Grant?
With regard to the first part of the question, in certain exceptional cases attendances of school children at oculists' surgeries have been allowed to be reckoned for purposes of Grant. With regard to the second part of the question, I explained the difficulties in connection with the registration of attendances of children for medical treatment at school clinics, hospitals, private surgeries, and elsewhere in answer to questions on this subject yesterday, and I am afraid I can add nothing to the information I have al ready given.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that the case of a child who is deaf and is unable to benefit by the Education Department's school will be treated in the same way as a child who happens to be short-sighted? It seems to me to be rather illogical to make a distinction.
It is a question with regard to medical inspection under the terms of the Act, and depends upon technicalities of that kind as to whether deafness can be treated in exactly the same way as children are treated who go to oculists.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the issue of an Order allowing children attending a school clinic to be absent for a maximum number of hours per week, say, two hours per week, which would include a large number of cases and rule out those where absence would really be detrimental? Will he consider that proposal?
I will certainly consider it. The whole matter is receiving our careful consideration, and we wish to get over the difficulties I have already mentioned.
Tithe Rent-Charge (Woodham Ferris, Essex)
75.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that a man and his son who have been working since December, 1911, three acres of land at Woodham Ferris, in Essex, tithed at 3s. 9d. per acre, were served with a demand in October, 1912, for £18 17s. 11d., being a half-year's tithe on the whole estate; whether he is aware that their goods and crops are being distrained upon to pay other people's debts; and whether he intends to take any action to amend the law dealing with such cases?
Under Section 81 of the Tithe Act, 1836, the tithe-owner is entitled to collect, from any one of the owners of the tithe area, the tithe rent-charge in respect of the whole area, an owner so charged having the right under Section 16 of the Tithe Act, 1842, to recover contributions from the other part-owners. The Board have no power to intervene in the collection of annual tithe rent-charge, but they are empowered, on the application of a part-owner of a tithe area, to make a reapportionment of the charge so as to limit his liability to the land owned by him. An application for reapportionment was recently received, apparently from the landowner referred to in the question, but this cannot affect the collection of the tithe rent-charge now accruing. The reply to the last part of the question is in the negative.
Bow Street Police Court (Failure To Find Surety)
76.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the case of Mr. T. Herbert, of 134, Farringdon Road, E.C., who was bound over on his own recognisances to keep the peace for six months, on 3rd December, 1912, at Bow Street Police Court, and was also ordered to find a surety of the sum of £10 that he would keep the peace for six months, or in default to be imprisoned for one month, and that he was given by the magistrate, Mr. Marsh, two days in which to find a surety; whether he is aware that Mr. Herbert was arrested within twenty-seven hours of the magistrate's decision, and committed to Pentonville Gaol, where he remained until 6th December; and whether some compensation may be granted to Mr. Herbert in view of his unauthorised imprisonment by which he lost considerably in business?
This matter has been carefully considered, and, on making inquiry into the facts, I have found no sufficient ground for intervention on my part. The imprisonment was in pursuance of an order made by the magistrate after defendant had failed to find a surety for good behaviour and was authorised by law.
Safety Lamps (Testing Fees)
79.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has done anything to meet the complaints of safety-lamp manufacturers that they are charged a high fee for having lamps tested, whilst for testing lamps in Germany, France, and Austria there is no charge, and that the testing station is not accessible and causes inconvenience; and will he say under what Statute the Government have power to levy fees for testing safety lamps?
It has been found possible, in view of the large number of lamps which the makers propose to submit, to make substantial reductions in the fees as originally fixed. The fees are so fixed as merely to cover the expenditure actually incurred in connection with the testing of a lamp, and no statutory authority is required for charging the fees. The testing station was established at Eskmeals because the Home Office already had an experimental station there, and the work could be carried out more economically for the makers as well as more conveniently for the Department than if the Home Office had had to acquire a special site and appoint a special staff. It may be possible later on to make arrangements for its transfer to a more central spot.
Shops Acts
80.
asked the right hon. Gentleman whether certain refreshment caterers are adopting the Shops Act, 1912, for one section of their employés and the Act recently passed for another section; and whether he proposes taking any action in the matter?
I have no information on this subject other than that supplied to me by my hon. Friend. The agreement which he has been good enough to send to me made by the management of a well-known hotel in regard to the kitchen staff of the hotel appears to be an agreement outside the provisions of the Shops Act, 1913. I would add that the administration of the Act rests, not with the Home Office, but with the local authority, and any representations as to cases in which it is alleged the Act is being infringed should be made to them.
Seeing that the hotel proprietors and restaurant keepers refused to work the 1911 Act, and that the amending Act of this year was passed at their instance, cannot the Home Office do something to make them obey an Act which they themselves were instrumental in producing?
I am afraid not. The responsibility for enforcing the Act does not lie with the Home Office, but with the local authorities.
Has the Home Office no power to set the pace for the local authorities?
I am afraid not. That would not be in accordance with the actual terms of the Act.
Cannot you get power?
Not except by law.
Royal Navy
Hms "Pegasus"
81.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what was the cost of refitting His Majesty's ship "Pegasus" at Devonport whilst in dockyard hands recently?
The cost of the refit is £14,798.
First Lord's Visit To French Fleet
82.
asked the right hon. Gentleman whether he recently visited Monte Carlo on His Majesty's ship "Hussar"; how long he remained there; whether His Majesty's ship "Hussar" waited for him in Villefranche Harbour all the time; and what advantage to the nation has accrued from this visit?
His Majesty's ship "Hussar," which is the yacht of the Commander-in-Chief, Mediterranean, was sent by him to Villefranche for the purpose of taking me to Toulon to see the French Fleet. She visited no other ports, and was used for no other purpose.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in 1903, when Lord Selborne was First Lord of the Admiralty, two ships of war were placed at the disposal of Mr. Brodrick, not for public purposes but for the purpose of a honeymooning tour?
Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many previous First Lords of the Admiralty visited Monte Carlo in one of His Majesty's ships?
The Noble Lord makes rather a speciality of this kind of question. I have already said in answer to his question that the vessel in question was sent to Villefranche Harbour, and was used only for a public purpose, and not for any other purpose at all. As to the general question as to what has happened in the past, I cannot give the information, but I have always understood that no one used the Admiralty yacht for private as opposed to official purposes so much as Lord Selborne.