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Commons Chamber

Volume 51: debated on Monday 7 April 1913

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House Of Commons

Monday, 7th April, 1913.

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

Private Bills (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, that, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the Second Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—

Mid Kent and East Kent District Water Bill.

Hull and Barnsley Railway Bill.

Great Northern Railway Bill.

Metropolitan Electric Tramways (Railless Traction) Bill.

Ordered, that the Bills be committed.

Private Bill Petitions [ Lords] (Standing Orders not complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for the following Bill, originating in the Lords, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, namely:—

Richmond (Surrey) Electricity Supply [ Lords].

Ordered, that the Report be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.

Board Of Agriculture And Fisheries

Copy presented of Annual Reports of Proceedings under the Diseases of Animals Acts, the Markets and Fairs (Weighing of Cattle) Acts, etc., for the year 1912 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Loss Of The Ss "Titanic" (Inquiry)

Copy presented of Return of the Expenses incurred by the Board of Trade and other Government Departments in connection with the Inquiry into the loss of the ss. "Titanic" [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

National Health Insurance Commission (England)

Copy presented of Order, dated 31st March, 1913, made by the Insurance Commissioners under Section 78 of The National Insurance Act, 1911, entitled The National Health Insurance (County Borough of Dewsbury Insurance Committee) Order, 1913 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Education (England And Wales) (Statistics)

Return ordered "for the year 1911–12 (or for the year 1910–11 where later figures are not available), relating to Education in England and Wales."—[ Mr. King.]

Oral Answers To Questions

Congo

1.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether, by recognising formally the sovereign rights of Belgium over the Congo, this country will retain or acquire any guarantees for the open door in trade, for the neutrality of the regions recognised, and for the good government and humane treatment of the native populations?

The recognition of the sovereign rights of Belgium over the Congo will snake no difference in any of the matters referred to by the hon. Member. Previous treaty rights will remain.

Has the Foreign Office any reason to suppose that the Belgian Government is less anxious for the good government and humane treatment of the native populations than we are?

China

4.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information to the effect that the United States Government is about to recognise the Republic of China?

Wheat Cultivation (Blenheim Park)

5.

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture if his attention has been drawn to the intention of the Duke of Marlborough to put 1,000 acres under the plough in Blenheim Park for the production of wheat; and if he can state the area of park land in England and Wales, and to what extent it could be put to a similar use?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative; and the answer to both branches of the latter part is in the negative.

Small Holdings (Herefordshire)

6.

asked how many applicants have applied for small holdings in Herefordshire; how many have been approved; and how many have had their applications satisfied?

There have been 495 applications for small holdings in Herefordshire; 271 have been approved; and 104 have been satisfied.

Swine Fever

7.

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he has been able to agree to the application from the counties of Gloucestershire, Warwickshire, and Worcestershire to be treated as one area for the purposes of swine fever?

I have reconsidered the position in the light of more detailed information recently furnished to me, and as each one of the three counties named wishes for the combination, the Board will not withhold their consent.

Royal Navy

Aircraft (Wireless Telegraphy)

19.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the naval aeroplane and airship wireless telegraph apparatus is of British invention and manufacture; and, if not, from what country it comes?

Experiments are being carried out with wireless telegraphic apparatus of British and French designs.

Are we to understand that the present wireless apparatus is of French invention and manufacture?

National Insurance Act

Unemployment Benefit

28 and 30.

asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) why unemployment benefit has not yet been paid to A. E. Simm, who registered at the Colchester Labour Exchange on the 20th February and did not obtain the promise of re-employment until the 31st of March, and whose re-employment is jeopardised by the retention of his card, and whether any explanation can be given of the delay; and (2) why the unemployed insurance card belonging to A. E. Simm, painter's labourer, lodged on 20th February, at the Colchester Labour Exchange, though applied for personally and in writing on and since 19th March, was not returned by the 30th March, on the ground that it had been sent to London; and whether compensation will be paid to Simm for loss of time in endeavouring to recover it, and for loss of wages if further loss of work is caused, as seems likely by his being unable to produce it?

I understand that Mr. Simm lodged his claim to benefit on the 20th February, but that owing to the pressure of work at this time caused by the return to the Divisional Office of many thousands of claims the period of validity of which had expired, the claim was, by an error which I much regret, filed away. It has since been traced and Mr. Simm was duly paid last week. There does not appear to be any question of Mr. Simm's employment having been jeopardised by the non-return to him of his unemployment book. Mr. Simm was placed in employment through the Labour Exchange on the 19th March, and I understand that he is still in that employment. In view of the fact that his permanent unemployment book was not available at the local office a temporary book was sent to him.

29.

asked the nature of the misconduct alleged against G. R. Abbot by reason of which unemployment benefit is refused by the Dundee Labour Exchange, and how soon after the 1st February, when unemployment benefit was applied for, was this decision given; and why it has taken twelve days to ascertain that the refusal of unemployed benefit is due to this cause?

The grounds upon which Mr. Abbot's claim was disallowed have already been communicated to him. He applied for unemployment benefit on 5th February, and not on the 1st, as stated by the hon. Member, and the decision notifying him of the fact that benefit had been disallowed was forwarded to the Labour Exchange on 26th February. I may add that the improved methods which have recently been adopted will, I hope, greatly reduce the possibility of the recurrence of the occasional delays which have inevitably occurred in the earlier stages of dealing with claims. As regards the delay in obtaining the information asked for by the hon. Member on 19th March, I would point out that it was necessary to make inquiries in Scotland to obtain the desired information, and that the Easter holidays intervened.

Sanatorium Benefit

37 and 56.

asked (1) whether the sanction of the Treasury has been asked by the Local Government Board to the advance of all, instead of three-fifths, of the cost of building a sanatorium at Nayland of about 100 beds; if so, with what result; whether similar applications will be entertained from county authorities, or whether the three-fifths' rule is intended to be absolute; also (2) whether any arrangement has been made with the East Anglian Sanatorium Company or its managing director for a Grant of a sum equal to the total cost of a sanatorium of about 100 beds at Nayland; and, if no arrangement has been made, is any negotiation pending with the object of increasing the Grant beyond the usual three-fifths of the total cost.

I may inform the hon. Member that an application has been received for a Grant for the erection of sanatorium accommodation at Nayland, and that the proposal is now under consideration.

Has any request been made to advance the full amount instead of the usual three-fifths, and is the usual three-fifths to be an absolute rule or not?

I believe that an application for some Grant above the three-fifths has been made, and is being considered by the Treasury and the Local Government Board.

Is the three-fifths' rule an absolute rule, or may any one of these counties apply for the full amount?

I think that that had better be answered when the matter is fully considered.

Loss Of Contribution Cards

33.

asked what arrangements have been made for accepting proof of payment of contributions where a contribution card has been lost; and whether, in the case of William Bishop, No. 123814, boiler-maker, of Ipswich, a member of the Hearts of Oak Approved Society, whose first quarter's contribution card has been lost and who is refused benefit on the ground that the society is awaiting the decision of the National Health Insurance Commissioners an immediate decision can be come to by accepting the assurance of his employers, Messrs. Ransomes, Sims, and Jefferies, that the contribution card for the first quarter was fully paid, seeing that the Commissioners have had the matter before them for more than a month?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which my right hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Gorton on the 3rd of this month. Each case of a lost card must be considered on its merits, and there is no trace in the office of the Insurance Commission of the receipt of any communication with regard to the contributor mentioned in the question.

Assuming the facts of the question, will the hon. Gentleman accept the statement of both the man and his employers that he has paid the whole of the quarter's contribution?

Will the hon. Gentleman have some inquiries made as to whether the statement is well founded?

Every inquiry has been made, and no trace has been found of any communication on this case.

Is this always decided by the Commissioners or is it a matter to be left to the approved societies to decide what they will do?

Disablement Benefit

43.

asked whether an insured person who becomes an employed contributor after the age of fifty will become entitled to disablement benefit if permanently disabled after he has paid 104 contributions for 104 weeks; and whether, if the rules of an approved society stipulate that 500 contributions must have been paid in such a case before the insured person is qualified for disablement benefit, the Commissioners will cause public notice to be given that such rules are ultra vires?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The Commissioners are not aware of any case in which the rules of a society are in error on the point, and they would be glad if the hon. Member will let them know of any case which has come to his notice.

Chemists (Convictions)

55.

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware of the offence proved against a firm of chemists at Fenton, Staffordshire, who sold to the Stoke-on-Trent insurance committee a number of pills not in accordance with the prescription; whether insurance committees are empowered to strike off the list any chemists convicted of such offences; and whether the Insurance Commissioners will occasionally test the medicines and pills supplied and so ensure their proper composition and efficacy?

The Commissioners have seen a report of the case referred to. If any representations are made to them that the inclusion or continuance on the panel of any chemist will be prejudicial to the efficiency of the service, they may after inquiry exclude or remove such chemist from the panel. With regard to the third part of the question it is the duty of the insurance committee to take such steps as may be necessary to secure a proper and sufficient supply of drugs and medicines for the insured persons in their area.

I understand from that answer that persons might be removed from the list on representations. From whom would these representations proceed—from the Insurance Commissioners or from insured persons?

Medical Benefit

88.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if his attention has been called to the inquest on a woman held on the 29th March at Hull, when the doctor who was called in stated that the woman would not have died had she received attention earlier, and adding that, owing to the increase of work thrown on him and his partner in connection with the National Insurance Act they now found it impossible to undertake the amount of night work they had previously done, and had to refuse to deal with cases in which they had not a direct interest; if he will state the number of insured persons on the list of the doctor in question; the total number of panel doctors in Hull; and the number of insured persons there?

The Commissioners have made inquiries into the case referred to. They understand that the woman in question was not an insured person but a private patient. So far from stating that she would have lived if she had been attended earlier, the doctor states definitely that she would have died in any case. The number of insured persons on his list for whose treatment he has undertaken responsibility (only a very small proportion of whom, of course, are ill at any one time) is 2,238; the number of doctors on the panel for Hull is seventy-seven, and the number of insured persons approximately 89,000.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the doctors stated that if the woman had received earlier treatment she certainly would have lived; and may I ask whether he can inform the House how many persons unfortunately have died in consequence of the unsatisfactory arrangements that have been made in regard to the work of medical officers?

Friendly Societies (National Conference)

84.

asked whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer's attention has been called by the National Conference of Friendly Societies and by the Joint Committee of Approved Societies to the hardships suffered by aged and sick members of friendly societies, who are unable to obtain medical treatment except at a greatly increased cost in consequence of the concessions he has made to the medical profession; and whether he can now see his way to make a Grant of 2s. 6d. a year for such members of sixty-five years of age and upwards, whether insured under the National Insurance Act, Part I., or not, upon the condition that the societies arrange a satisfactory system of medical treatment for such members?

My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had representations on this subject, but I am afraid I have nothing to add to the answers given by my right bon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury to similar questions.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that when the Act was passing through this House hon. Members were assured that insured persons would not be subject to injustice, and is he aware that members of approved societies are being penalised under present conditions?

Will the right hon. Gentleman deal with this point in the Bill to amend the Insurance Act which he is about to introduce?

Medical Certificates

85.

asked by what right certain of the approved societies, acting as distributors of public funds under the National Insurance Act, withhold payment of insurance benefit on the ground that the medical certificates have been signed by the patient's own private medical adviser as distinguished from a panel doctor, seeing that the Insurance Commissioners have already pointed out that there is nothing either in the Act or in the Regulations under the Act to justify such a proceeding; whether the Government look upon the doctors who are not on the panel as hostile and will not accept their certificates; and whether the Government auditors would look to the secretary of an approved society to refund money paid on certificates of non-panel doctors as having been money unlawfully paid away?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answers given by my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury on 15th January and 6th February, and to the full statement made by him in Debate on 12th February. The acceptance or refusal of a certificate of any particular medical practitioner for the purpose of administering sickness benefit is in the first instance for the approved society to decide, subject to a right of the insured person to appeal to the Insurance Commissioners under Section 67 of the Act. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.

Deductions From Wages

40.

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether his attention has been called to the case of a number of men employed by the Edinburgh and Leith Gas Commissioners in putting out the gas lights on common stairs every morning at the rate of 1s. 5d. the morning, or under 10s. a week; whether he is aware that these men were compulsorily insured from 15th July, 1912, until 8th February, 1913, when they were informed that they were outside the compulsory provisions of the National Insurance Act, but had the option of continuing as voluntary contributors; and whether, in view of the fact that these men had 33 weeks' deductions made from their wages under a misapprehension, he can see his way to refund to such of them as do not insure as voluntary contributors the deductions amounting to 11s. apiece.

The persons referred to in the question were properly insured as employed contributors until 30th December last, when a Special Order came into force by which their employment was excluded from the scope of the compulsory provisions of the National Insurance Act as a class of employment which is ordinarily adopted as subsidiary employment only, and not as a principal means of livelihood. In the circumstances the contributions paid by the men up to 30th December cannot be treated as having been paid under a misapprehension, and the Commissioners have no power to make any repayment from the National Health Insurance Fund in respect of such contributions. If, however, deductions have been made from the men's wages for any period subsequent to that date an application for a refund so far as those contributions are concerned would be entertained in the case of any men who may not elect to continue in insurance as voluntary contributors.

Goods Traffic (New Regulations)

35.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he has received any reply from the Irish Railway Clearing House with reference to the new regulations requiring goods sent by rail to be fully addressed; and if any modification of the regulations has been decided upon?

As was stated, in reply to a question put by my hon. Friend the Member for East Tyrone on Wednesday last, the Irish companies have temporarily adopted the regulations of the English companies.

Conveyance Of Potatoes (Caledonian Railway)

36.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received a satisfactory reply from the Caledonian Railway Company on the subject of the complaint made by the Perth and Forfar potato merchants; and, if not, whether he will communicate once more to the company the imperative necessity of taking immediate action to remedy the grievance?

I have received a reply from the railway company, a copy of which I have forwarded to my hon. Friend. Briefly, the substance of the company's letter is to the effect that the shortage is due to exceptional circumstances, and that they have endeavoured to meet it by placing at the disposal of the potato merchants waggons obtained from the English railway companies.

Peninsular And Oriental Steamship Company (Subsidies)

39.

asked the amount of subsidies agreed to be paid to the Peninsular and Oriental Steamship Company by the imperial Government for the conveyance of mails, under contracts entered into during the period when the Earl of Selborne was Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies and First Lord of the Admiralty?

14.

asked the Postmaster-General the amount paid for the conveyance of mails by the Peninsular and Oriental Steamship Company during the years when the Earl of Selborne was a Member of the Government?

The sums payable for the conveyance of oversea mails are stated in the contracts which are sub- mitted for the approval of the House of Commons. I would refer my hon. Friend to House of Commons Papers, 259 of 1897 and 328 of 1904.

During the period in question was the subsidy for the China and Oriental mails raised by £10,000 per annum?

I would like to have notice of that. I think that there was some increase and decreases also.

In view of the interest in this class of subject at present, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the issue of a Return or Paper going back a great number of years and giving all these…

Civil Service (Second Division)

42.

asked how many vacancies were advertised at the second division clerks' examinations held in 1911 and 1912, and how many clerks were appointed from each list?

The number of vacancies advertised was 100 in each year. The number of appointments from the 1911 list was 450, and the probable number from the 1912 list will be 550.

Marconi Company (Post Office Contract)

44.

asked on what date application was made to the Treasury for any necessary approval of the contract between the Post Office and the Marconi Company; and the date when such approval was given?

On 7th March, 1912, the Post Office sought and obtained oral authority from the Treasury for accepting the company's tender. By a letter dated 11th March, they subsequently requested formal authority, and this was conveyed to them by a Treasury letter dated 20th March.

Was the Chancellor of the Exchequer consulted personally with regard to the matter?

Poor Law Institutions (Order)

58.

asked the President of the Local Government Board (1) whether he will circulate copies of the draft Poor Law Institutions Order to Members of the House and undertake not to issue it until an opportunity of discussing it in the House has been given; (2) whether the Departmental Committee by whom the draft proposed Poor Law Institutions Order was prepared included any represenative of either the medical or nursing professions; (3) whether he will state if the draft Poor Law Institutions Order, now under his consideration, admits of an inmate of a workhouse being employed in nursing sick inmates if approved by the medical officer and acting under the immediate supervision of a paid officer in the sick wards; whether such paid officer is to be a trained nurse; and whether such an employment is in direct opposition to a memorandum issued by the Local Government Board in the year 1892, in which the employment of paupers in such wards was strongly disapproved; (4) whether the draft proposed Poor Law Institutions Order has been confidentially supplied to certain persons and associations; and, if so, to whom; and whether he has refused to supply copies to other associations and to boards of guardians who have applied for them; and (5) whether he will state if any provision is made in the draft Poor Law Institutions Order, now under his consideration, for a training qualification for nurses in small workhouses where only one nurse is employed; whether it is provided that if in any workhouse there is no superintendent nurse the matron is to perform the duties of the position, and if any provision is made for such matron possessing an adequate training qualification; whether it is provided that the workhouse master is to have control of the sick wards and consequently over the superintendent nurse and her staff; and whether, if so, this would entitle the workhouse master to visit at any time any of the sick wards, whether male or female?

The Departmental Committee appointed to consider the Poor Law Orders with a view to their consolidation and amendment have not yet made their Report to me, and consequently I am not in a position to say what their proposals are. I understand that some time ago the Committee invited the observations of the Poor Law Unions Association and some other bodies upon certain of their proposals. As soon as I receive their Report, which I understand will include a draft Order, I will give consideration to the various matters referred to by my hon. Friend, including the suggestion that the draft Order shall be laid upon the Table.

Pure Food Bill

63.

asked the President of the Local Government Board if he can name a day for the introduction of the Bill in preparation dealing with the question of the purity of food?

Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that it will be before Whitsuntide?

Hitchin (Insanitary Conditions)

66.

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware of the insanitary conditions which prevail in certain of the older streets of Hitchin, in Hertfordshire; if so, whether he proposes to take any action in relation thereto?

I am aware that in some parts of the urban district of Hitchin the housing conditions are very unsatisfactory, and I have for some time past been in correspondence with the district council in relation to the Queen Street area of the district, with a view to action being taken by the council to remedy the conditions in that area by making an improvement scheme under the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1890. I have recently addressed a further letter to the council on the subject.

Import Of Seeds (Ireland)

75.

asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether he is aware that the American Custom House officers take samples of seeds at the port of arrival, and if it is found that they do not come up to a certain standard of quality the names of the buyer and the seller are published; is he aware that Ireland is a dumping ground for spurious, diseased, and adulterated seeds; and whether he has any means at his disposal to protect farmers in this respect?

The Department are aware of the procedure in the United States. The Department are empowered by the Weeds and Agricultural Seeds (Ireland) Act, 1909, to cause samples of agricultural seeds to be taken and tested for purity and germination and to publish the results if deemed desirable. They are taking active measures to suppress the sale of seeds of the class described by the hon. Member.

Old Age Pensions, Insurance, And Labour Exchanges (Cost)

78.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total amount which the social legislation of the present Government, in the three items of old age pensions, insurance, and Labour Exchanges, is costing the country?

The total amount which Parliament is invited to Vote in 1913–14 for old age pensions, insurance, and Labour Exchanges is £21,239,847.

Food Taxes

79.

asked if, whilst the national expenditure has increased by about thirty-five millions sterling since the present Government came into office in 1906 and the National Debt has, during the same period, been reduced by seventy-eight millions sterling, no new tax has been put upon the food of the people?

Undeveloped Land Tax (Arrears)

80.

asked whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been and is now collecting arrears of Undeveloped Land Duty from the present owners of properties, without having regard to the fact that such property has changed hands since the duty became due, but before any valuation enabled either vendor or purchaser to know that such duty was payable?

The answer is in the affirmative, the practice being in accordance with the law which provides that Undeveloped Land Duty shall be recoverable from the owner of the land for the time being. I do not think a vendor or purchaser would have serious difficulty in making an approximate estimate of the amount of duty payable.

How can the vendor or purchaser know that the duty will not be payable? The purchaser could not know when he bought it.

89.

asked whether Undeveloped Land Tax is being demanded upon working men's garden allotments in the Porchester freehold garden estate, on the ground that their gardens have not been turned into buildings; and whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer will direct his subordinates to desist from such demands of working men who are using their allotments for the purposes for which they were intended?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Duty is primâ facie chargeable in respect of the land to which the hon. Member refers, but claims for exemption under the provisions of Section 18 of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, have been received from a number of owners, and these claims are now being investigated.

Land Valuation

81.

asked why the provisional valuations in the case of every tenement covered by an Estate Duty case have not been hitherto issued in Ireland when such is done in England whenever a valuation for Estate Duty has been made under the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910; and whether they will in future be issued in Ireland simultaneously with the valuation of the estate for duty?

The instructions in force in England with regard to the issue of provisional valuations when the valuation for Estate Duty purposes has been completed are also acted on in Ireland so far as land situated in cities and urban districts is concerned. As regards land situated in rural districts, the valuation for Estate Duty purposes generally falls to be made on a different basis from the valuations under Part I. of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, and is not as a rule dealt with by the Commissioner of Valuation.

82.

asked what authority the Treasury had for having ordered the permanent valuers of the General Valuation Office, Ireland, who received warrants on appointment showing that their duties only embraced the carrying out of the provisions of the Irish Valuation Acts, to make valuations in Ireland under the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910; whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer is aware that these valuers have been admitted by the Commissioner of Valuation to be the most competent valuers to make valuations under the Finance Act in Ireland; and whether the Treasury will give directions that they shall not be required to make valuations under that Act unless they are fairly remunerated for doing so?

The warrant referred to was an authorisation to inspect lands for valuation purposes under the old Valuation Acts and quoted these Statutes. It does not limit the general duties of the valuation officers. The new Finance Act valuations being made by these are largely used for work under the old Valuation Acts. I cannot accept the suggestion in the last part of the question that the officers in question are insufficiently remunerated for the duties they are performing.

83.

asked whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer intends to introduce legislation to meet the Lumsden case and avoid its results?

I can at present add nothing to the reply which I gave on the 26th March last to the hon. Baronet the Member for Mid-Armagh.

Income Tax (Members' Salaries)

86.

asked whether the Treasury received from the Comptroller Fund Auditor-General a communication calling in question the legality of the allowance of £100, without proof of expenditure, for assessing Income Tax on the salaries of Members of Parliament, and asking whether an opinion of the Law Officers had been obtained in support of the course taken; what was the date of such communication; whether any reply was sent, and, if so, when; and whether he will lay the correspondence on this subject upon the Table of the House?

A communication to the effect stated, dated 13th November, 1912, was received. A reply was sent on the 15th February, 1913. The correspondence on the subject has been laid before the Public Accounts Committee of this House.

May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will not lay the correspondence on the Table, it being a matter affecting the private affairs of Members of this House; whether it is the habit of the Treasury to wait for more than two months before replying to letters; and whether he will take the opinion of the Law Officers on the subject?

I think the usual course has been taken. The correspond- ence has to be laid in the first instance before a Committee of this House. It is not an outside Committee, it is a Committee appointed by this House to investigate matters of this kind, and the correspondence is always laid before the Public Accounts Committee in the first instance. It would be a departure from the usual practice to lay it on the Table first.

Having regard to the fact that this affects the private affairs of Members, will the right hon. Gentleman make a departure from the practice; and will he state why such a long time was allowed to elapse, from the 13th November, 1912, to 15th February, 1913, before replying to the Comptroller and Auditor-General?

I cannot answer the question without notice, but I should lave thought that the observations of the hon. Member show why the correspondence should first go before the Committee.

50.

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General calling in question the legailty of a uniform allowance of £100, without proof of actual expenditure, for the purpose of assessing Income Tax on the salaries of Members of Parliament; and whether, in view of the importance of insuring that allowances which are denied to the rest of His Majesty's subjects are not illegally made to Members of Parliament, he will afford the House an opportunity of discussing the question?

Yes, Sir. This question is now engaging the attention of the Public Accounts Committee. No action will be taken until that Committee has reported.

Would the right hon. Gentleman endeavour to persuade the Chancellor of the Exchequer not to continue this practice, the propriety of which has been called in question by the Comptroller and Auditor-General; and which I think has been repeated since that attention was called to it, and will he also endeavour to induce the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take the opinion of the Law Officers on the matter?

I think we had better wait until the Public Accounts Committee has reported. I am quite sure my right hon. Friend will not take any action meanwhile.

Will the right hon. Gentleman assure us we shall have an opportunity to discuss it?

Customs And Excise Department (Promotion)

87.

asked whether, under the scheme of amalgation of the Customs and Excise Departments, officers who originally entered the outdoor Customs by open competition, and afterwards successfully competed for and entered the Excise, will for purposes of seniority and promotion be placed in a position inferior to that of their contemporaries in the Customs who tried but failed to pass into the Excise; whether, as a result of the amalgamation, certain of these Excise officers are now in receipt of smaller salaries than are their Customs colleagues referred to; and whether the right hon. Gentleman will give instructions that seniority in the case of all these officers shall be reckoned as from the date of their original entry into the Customs, and that a new scale of salaries shall be fixed in which regard shall be had to the time spent and the experience gained by them in that branch of the amalgamated service?

It may be the case that some of the few officers who in the past voluntarily left the Customs service and entered at the bottom of the Excise service are slightly worse off now than their former contemporaries who remained in the Customs; but I am afraid that I cannot adopt the suggestion made in the last paragraph of the question.

Do not the facts apply to only a very few individuals who have a very serious grievance, and could not the right hon. Gentleman give them an answer?

Land Purchase (Ireland)

92.

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that the tenants of that portion of the Keogh estate situated in the parish of Kiltrustan and comprising the townlands of Moyglass, Ballygarden, and Skelp, more than six years ago signed purchase agreements, and have ever since been paying 4 per cent. on the purchase money; and whether he will use his influence to have the sales completed and those tenants relieved from paying that percentage?

This estate is the subject of proceedings for sale direct by the owner to the tenants, and the Estates Commissioners have no power to deal with it except in its order of priority, and, having regard to the claims of other estates, they are not at present in a position to say when it will be reached.

Ancient Order Of Hibernians (Cork)

93.

asked whether a resolution was recently passed by the Cork division of the Ancient Order of Hibernians, and directed to be sent to the Press, the members of the city corporation, and other public bodies, condemning the action of the Lord Mayor in proposing a toast to His Majesty at the St. Patrick Day banquet and characterising the toast as the insulting toast of the King of England; and whether a copy of the resolution was sent him by order of the board of the ancient order; and, if so, what action the Chief Secretary intends to take in the matter?

I understand that the statement in the newspapers that such a resolution was passed has been emphatically contradicted. No copy was sent to me.

Would the right hon. Gentleman like to see the actual letter written by the secretary?

Reinstatement Of Evicted Tenants (Ireland)

94.

asked the Chief Secretary whether the Estates Commissioners are now able to give their decision with regard to the grants applied for by John Floyd, Patrick M'Laughlin, Patrick Gallen, Michael Carlin, and John Kelly, reinstated evicted tenants on the Delap estate, county Donegal; whether a settlement has been arrived at with regard to arrears of interest in the cases of Patrick M'Laughlin, John Floyd, and John Kelly; and is he aware that this matter has been pending for four years, that it is ten months since the inspector's report on these cases was received, and that the delay in these cases involves the withholding of grants from the tenants at the period when the grants could be employed to the best advantage?

The Estates Commissioners inform me that an inspector will visit the lands at an early date to ascertain what arrangements the purchasing tenants are making to pay the land purchase annuities which are in arrear, and in satisfactory cases will arrange for the expenditure of the grants proposed to be made. As regards the latter part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to his question on this subject on the 9th of October last.

Royal Irish Constabulary

95.

asked the Chief Secretary if he is aware that Royal Irish Constabulary pensioners have demanded the return of their subscriptions to the Constabulary Force Fund; and if he will state what reply has been returned to this request?

Although some pensioners have asked that the fund should be wound up and their subscriptions returned to them, it is clear that the statutory claims of the widows and orphans of the subscribers must first be considered. As the hon. Baronet is aware, an actuarial inquiry is now being made into the state of the fund, and until it is complete no general reply can be sent to these demands.

96.

asked how many resignations from the Royal Irish Constabulary in Belfast have taken place during the last six months; and if he has any information with respect to the cause of these resignations?

During the six months ended 31st March, 1913, seventeen constables resigned from the Belfast force. The reasons assigned for these resignations were ten to emigrate, four to better their position, one to take up another situation, one on account of disciplinary report, and one for private reasons.

97.

asked whether, having regard to the general increase in the cost of living, he will recommend a full inquiry into the pay and conditions of service of the Royal Irish Constabulary?

The last increase of pay was granted to the rank and file of the constabulary in 1908, and as I have already stated it is too soon to reopen the question.

Will the right hon. Gentleman not consider, having regard to the cost of living, that it is almost time they did get an increase?

Education Inquiry (Ireland)

98.

asked the Chief Secretary whether, seeing that the education inquiry will fail to achieve the main object for which it was appointed if it refuses to admit the Press to its sittings, he will represent to the Committee the desirability of allowing the Press to attend; and will he say who is responsible for the decision to exclude the Press.

I have nothing to add to my previous answers to questions on this subject. If the Committee at any time thought fit to alter their decision so far as to admit the Press to its sittings it would, I think, give general satisfaction.

Royal Field Artillery (Special Reserve)

99.

asked the Secretary of State for War why ammunition is not supplied to admit of officers of the Special Reserve Royal Field Artillery firing a series when attending practice camp; and whether he will consider the necessity of requiring that these officers should practise shooting?

This question is now under consideration.

Royal Small Arms Factory

100.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will give the total number of employés at the Royal Small Arms Factory as on 31st March, 1913?

The numbers amounted to 1,879 inclusive of the Accounts Branch and the Building Works Department.

Army Estimates

102.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether the Estimates submitted to the House will be radically reconstructed in view of the information made public since their submission regarding the fleet of airships maintained by Germany, and the provision made in the extraordinary Estimates of that Empire for further augmenting and perfecting the aerial arm of the Service?

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given by the Prime Minister to a similar question on Wednesday of last week.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consult the Members of this House who have most experience in the gas bag business?

Rhum, Eigg, And Canna (Telegraph Facilities)

11.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the proprietors of Rhum, Eigg, and Canna paid £150 a year for seven years by way of guarantee to the Post Office for telegraphic facilities; if he will explain why £152 13s. 4d. is now demanded from them after they have for seven years been free from any levy of this description; and why they should pay for a wire used by the inhabitants, by travellers, by yachtsmen, by salvage crews, and for general purposes by all sorts and conditions of men?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to his question on the 2nd instant on this subject.

Is it not the fact that they have complied with all the requirements of the post office.

The question contains a number of argumentative points, but, as I stated in a previous answer, the matter is still being considered, and, in the meantime, no date has been fixed by the Department for the termination of the services.

Will the right hon. Gentleman also consider the circumstances of other telegraphic offices?

I am aware that if a concession is made in the case of this telegraph office that claims will be made from a number of places.

Mail Delivery (North Of Ireland)

15.

asked the Postmaster-General if his attention has been directed to the fact that frequent delays take place in the delivery of letters in Armagh and other towns in the North of Ireland, and that the Post Office officials profess inability to explain the cause; and if he will direct inquiry to be made whether the railway service is at fault and take steps to obviate delays which cause inconvenience to the public?

Application has recently been made for acceleration of the mails for Armagh and other places in the North of Ireland, and I am inquiring into the matter. During the month of March the arrival of mails from England viâ Holyhead and Kingstown has been somewhat later than usual, owing chiefly to bad weather, heavy Easter passenger traffic, and heavy transfers of American mails.

Employment Of Children Act (Scotland)

16.

asked the Secretary for Scotland the number of local authorities to which the Employment of Children Act, 1903, applies in Scotland, the number of these authorities who have put the Act into force, and the number of boys and girls, respectively, who have obtained licences for street trading?

The local authorities in Scotland which have power to make by-laws regulating street trading under the Employment of Children Act, 1903, are the town councils of burghs with a population above 7,000 and all county councils. So far by-laws have been made by six town councils out of fifty-four. None of the thirty-three county councils have put the Act into force. I have not information which would enable me to state the number of licences for street trading which have been issued. In addition, 31 school boards out of a total of 954 have made by-laws regulating ages and hours of employment.

17.

asked how many local authorities have put in force that part of the Scotch Education Act, 1908, which allows them to compel boys and girls to attend continuation schools; and how many boys and girls are at present attending them under compulsion?

By-laws requiring the attendance of young persons at continuation classes have been confirmed in the case of eighteen school boards. The classes under these boards were attended, during session 1911–12, by 23,323 students, but I have no information as to how many of these were required to attend in terms of the by-laws.

Rearming Ships

21.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether it is the usual custom when ships are to be rearmed to pay them off before the manufacture of the new guns has been commenced; and, if not, why was this course adopted in the case of the eight scouts employed as flotilla cruisers paid off in August and September, 1912, and not yet rearmed?

There is no usual custom in the matter. Each case must be judged on its merits. Five of these ships have been wholly and three partially re-tubed as well as rearmed.

Woolwich Arsenal Football Club

27.

asked the President of the Board of Education whether the Board has been asked to consent to the leasing of a portion of the ground of the London College of Divinity, St. John's Hall, Highbury, to the Woolwich Arsenal Football Club; and, if so, whether the Board is satisfied that the condition of the trust deed would permit of a lease being granted for such a purpose?

The answer to each part of the question is in the affirmative.

Crossens Station (Lancashire And Yorkshire Railway)

31.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received any communication with reference to the need of a footbridge to be erected by the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Company over their electric line at Crosscuts Station; and whether, in view of the danger and inconvenience to travellers caused by the lack of such facility, he proposes to take any action in the matter?

The attention of the Board of Trade was called to this matter last, year, and they communicated with the railway company. The company then explained that they did not consider a footbridge necessary, inasmuch as there was a road bridge at the end of the station with steps giving access to and from each platform. The Board of Trade have no statutory power to require a railway company to provide a footbridge for the use of passengers at a station after it has been inspected and opened for traffic.

Land Ownership

46.

asked the Prime Minister whether it is the policy of the Government that there cannot be a severance between land ownership and direct political power?

Would the right hon. gentleman read the speech of Lord Morley in another place last Session, in which he made this statement, and for that reason the question is asked if it had the concurrence of His Majesty's Government?

Perhaps the hon. Member would let me have notice of that and send me a copy of the speech.

Imperial Defence Committee

47.

asked the Prime Minister whether he has been able to enlarge the scope of the special inquiry by the Imperial Defence Committee, as suggested by the Committee of the National Defence Association in their letter to him of the 26th February last; and whether he is in a position to communicate the terms of reference to the House?

It is not desirable to widen the scope of this particular inquiry, the object of which is to discover whether any new factors have arisen which necessitate a reconsideration, and, if so, in what respect, of the conclusions on the question of oversea attack on the British Isles arrived at by the Committee of Imperial Defence in 1908. The bearing of the results of the inquiry on the wider aspects of Imperial defence will be examined in due course.

House Of Lords

48.

asked the Prime Minister whether he intends to introduce a Bill to provide for an effective Second Chamber this year; and whether he can make any statement now upon the matter?

Labourers (Wages)

49.

asked the Prime Minister whether a statutory wage of £1 weekly to labourers is to form part of the Government's immediate legislative programme?

I am not prepared to anticipate the announcement which will be made in due time of the policy of the Government with regard to land reform and kindred subjects.

Members Of Government (Investments)

51.

asked the Prime Minister if he will give facilities for the introduction and passage of a Bill with the object of preventing Members of the Government in receipt of a salary speculating in stocks and shares, provided that they shall not be thereby precluded from investing in shares which they take up and pay for at the time of the investment and which are not purchased to be carried over in the expectation of a speculative profit?

Is the House to understand that the Prime Minister approves of Members of the Government gambling?

Newspaper Lotteries

52.

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to competitions and schemes in the nature of lotteries in certain periodicals published in England; whether he is aware that these competitions and schemes are regarded as legal in England but as illegal in Scotland; and whether he will take such steps as are necessary to effect uniformity of treatment in the two countries?

The matter is under consideration, and I am not at present in a position to say anything further.

Government Of Ireland Bill

Irish Parliament (Summary)

54.

asked whether, in the event of the Government of Ireland Bill becoming law by the 30th June, 1914, under the terms of the Parliament Act, it is the present intention of the Government to postpone by Order of the King in Council the summoning of the Irish Parliament until such date as will allow of any measure of registration or of electoral reform, including the abolition of the plural vote, that may be proposed during the present Session, being voted on by 103 representatives from Ireland and being subsequently passed into law under the terms of the Parliament Act by the House as at present constituted?

The hon. Member's question is based on hypothesis and deals with matters which, so far as I am aware, have not been considered by the Government.

Coal Mines Act (Regulations)

68.

asked when the Regulations as to the hours of employment of winding enginemen, framed under Section 57 (3) of the Coal Mines Act, 1911, will come into operation as finally adjusted?

I have, in accordance with the recommendation of the Referee, made an Order fixing the 30th June next as the date after which, except as provided by the Regulations, no winding engineman may be employed more than eight hours a day. The Regulations will come into force at the same time.

Sunday Trading

69.

asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the state of the law with regard to Sunday trading, he will reconsider the Report of the Joint Select Committee on Sunday Trading appointed in 1906, or will recommend the appointment of a Select Committee to deal with the doubts and difficulties in its administration still existing?

The Government made an attempt in 1911 to deal with the question of Sunday closing on the lines recommended by the Joint Select Committee of 1906, but the proposals encountered considerable opposition, and no solution was found which was generally acceptable. I am aware of the strong feeling in favour of some measure of Sunday closing among a large section of the traders of the country, and I should be glad if a satisfactory solution could be found, but I am afraid there is no prospect of the Government being able to take the matter up again at present, and I am not satisfied that the appointment of another Select Committee now would be likely to advance the question.

Women Suffrage Prisoners

70.

asked the Home Secretary whether he can state the total number of persons, distinguishing between men and women, who have been imprisoned since 1st January, 1910, for offences connected with the movement for the enfranchisement of women; what number of these have refused to take food and have been forcibly fed; and the number who have had to be released for reasons of health connected with forcible feeding?

The number of persons imprisoned for offences in connection with the suffragist agitation since 1st January, 1910, is as follows:—

Females.Males.
19101133
19111826
19122382
1913664

These figures relate to persons received into prison on conviction, and do not include cases received on remand or while awaiting trial. As I have already stated, on the 25th March, in reply to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for the Mansfield Division, out of the 240 imprisoned in 1912, fifty-seven were forcibly fed, and of these twenty-three were released for reasons of health. Since the beginning of this year, out of the seventy imprisoned ten have been forcibly fed and three of these have been released for reasons of health. Similar information with regard to the years 1910 and 1911 could not be furnished without a great expenditure of labour and time, and in some cases the particulars might not now be available.

Factories Acts (Hours Of Labour)

71.

asked the Home Secretary whether, under the terms of the Factories Acts, the hours of work in factories must be regulated as from the beginning of one complete hour to the end of another, half-hourly periods not being permitted; and, if so, whether he will consider the advisability of introducing legislation with a view to rendering possible more elastic and more convenient arrangements?

Under the Factory Act, the period of employment for women and young persons must begin at six and end at six, or begin at seven and end at seven, or (in the case of non-textile factories and workshops) begin at eight and end at eight. It is not permissible to make the period run from, say, 6.30 to 6.30; but there is nothing to prevent the employer making actual work commence, say, half an hour later or end half an hour earlier than the statutory limits; it is not unusual to do this and to allow the first half hour or last half hour, as the case may be, as a meal time. The present system has been in force since 1878.

Glamorgan County Council (First-Aid Certificates)

72.

asked the Home Secretary whether he has received from the Education Department of the Glamorgan County Council a memorandum asking for the recognition of the Glamorgan Education Committee's certificates in first aid for the formation of rescue brigades in mines, and qualification for first and second class certificates of competency; whether he is aware that the Board of Trade and the War Office accept the committee's certificates; and whether the Home Office is now prepared to accord a similar recognition?

I have received an application from the Glamorgan County Council for the recognition of their first-aid certificate for the purposes of the Coal Mines Act. The whole question of the recognition of first-aid certificates for the purposes of that Act is under consideration, and I am not in a position to make any statement at present.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how long this matter has been under consideration, and whether, in view of the fact that the examination for mines' certificates takes place in May of this year, the Report of those who are considering the matter can be now produced?

I am afraid that I cannot give the hon. Member a more definite answer. The recognition of the Glamorganshire County Council certificate has been vigorously opposed in various quarters.

Trawling Inquiry (Report)

73.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he can furnish any further information with regard to the Inter-Departmental Commission to investigate the trawling for herrings and other fishery questions; and whether he can state how many days the Commission has sat, and when the Report will be issued?

The Inter-Departmental Committee on Fisheries held its first meeting on 6th July, 1912; and the last meeting at which evidence was heard on 24th February of this year. The Members of the Committee have, however, been, obliged to give very con- siderable time, in addition to the actual meetings of the Committee, to considering various Reports and Memoranda sent in from both England and Scotland. An agreement between the drifting and trawling interests to request a postponement of decision by the Committee until after this fishing season, appears to be imminent. In view of such probable agreement, and of the necessity of obtaining certain practical information desired by the Committee and the contending parties, and only obtainable by research on the fishing grounds, it is probable that no Report will be issued until the autumn.

Now that that agreement has been arrived at, will the Committee direct its attention to the object for which it was set up?

When we have considered the evidence which we have already got we shall proceed to the second part of the inquiry, which is the question of limiting, or perhaps extending, the international area.

Will you remember that that is the chief object of the Committee?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at the present time experiments are being made on the subject of trawling for herrings?

Yes. Those experiments and researches have so far been inconclusive, and it is desired on both sides that they should be continued and extended during the present fishing season.

Did I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that the question of limiting the area was being considered? Am I not right in saying that the only question is that of extending the area.

It may be that the question of limitation will come up. I should not exclude it.

Does that mean that we shall have no information as to extension or limitation before the autumn?

The question to which I have given an answer has reference to the difficulties with regard to trawling for herrings. It is upon that and that only that a postponement of decision will probably be requested.

Northern Nigeria (Prostration)

76.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether prostration is insisted upon by the British Government officials in Northern Nigeria; and, if so, whether these prostrations are demanded from natives and non-natives alike, not only for the officials but for their wives?

The answer is in the negative.

Montenegro (Great Powers)

2.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any further information to give to the House as to the coercion of Montenegro by the Great Powers; and whether, before Great Britain is committed to taking part in a policy by which Montenegro is forcibly deprived of territory which she has conquered or may conquer, the Government will give Parliament an opportunity of expressing its views?

3.

asked whether, in the event of the naval demonstration of the Great Powers proving ineffective, it is proposed to sanction any isolated action by Austria-Hungary on land to reinforce the demand for a cessation of the bombardment of Scutari?

May I ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give the House any further information with regard to Montenegro?

Two of His Majesty's ships, the battleship "King Edward VII." and the cruiser "Dartmouth," have proceeded to the coast of Montenegro to take part in an international naval demonstration. Austrian, French, German, and Italian warships are also there for the same purpose. The British senior naval officer has been instructed to join the senior officers of the international squadron in consultation as to any means which may be practicable to exert pressure on the Montenegrin Government to defer to the decision of the Powers. The landing of naval brigades and field guns or actual bombardment will not be undertaken without further instructions. The attitude of the Russian Government is explained in the following communique:—

"In view of the fact that the Conference of Ambassadors in London has pronounced a naval demonstration in Montenegrin waters indispensable, Russia, although not herself taking part in the above-mentioned demonstration, has expressed the opinion that the demonstration ought to have an international character, and that French and British ships ought to take part in it."
The House will perhaps allow me to offer some explanation of the object of this naval demonstration, and of how and why His Majesty's Government have become a party to it. We are party to it because we are a party with the other Great Powers to an agreement which the naval demonstration is intended to uphold. This agreement is that there should be an autonomous Albania. We willingly became a party to this, for the Albanians are separate in race, in language, and to a great extent in religion. The war which is proceeding against them has long ceased to have any bearing on the war between Turkey and the Allies, or to be a war of liberation. The operations of Montenegro against Scutari are part of a war of conquest, and there is no reason why the same sympathy that was felt for Montenegro or other countries contending for liberty and national existence should not be extended to the Albanian population of Scutari and its district, who are mainly Catholics and Moslem, and who are contending for their lands, their religion, their language, and their lives. For these reasons His Majesty's Government have no hesitation in being parties to the agreement of the Powers about Albania. The agreement between the Powers respecting the frontiers of Albania was reached after a long and laborious diplomatic effort. It was decided that the littoral and Scutari should be Albanian, while Ipek, Prizrend, Dibra, and (after much negotiation) Djakova should be excluded from Albania. This arrangement leaves a large tract of territory to be divided between Servia and Montenegro as the fruits of victory. The making of the agreement was essential for the peace of Europe, and, in my opinion, it was accomplished only just in time to preserve that peace between Great Powers. That the agreement, if disputed, should be upheld by international action remains essential for the continuance of that peace. His Majesty's Government have no direct interest in the details of the agreement, and we should not, in all probability, object to any agreement that commanded the consent of the Powers more directly interested than we are. But, because we believe that the agreement is, in its main lines, in accord with humanity, liberty, and justice, and because we know that the peace of Europe depends upon the maintenance of concord between the Powers most directly interested in this region, we have thought it right, and by becoming a party to the agreement we have undertaken the honourable obligation to take part in the international action now proceeding to uphold it and make it respected.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman how he can reconcile the attitude of His Majesty's Government with their declaration of neutrality?

As I have already said, what is going on in Albania is not now a war of liberation, but a war of conquest. It has long ceased to have any bearing upon the war between Turkey and the Allies. The Great Powers, having all become parties to an agreement about the frontiers of Albania, we, as one of the parties—and willingly—for reasons I have given, are bound to take part in international action.

I do not propose to enter into a discussion at this time, but I should like to say that at the first opportunity we shall raise this question.

Can the right hon. Gentleman inform me whether this House will have any opportunity of discussing this question at an early date?

I think it a matter of very grave doubt whether a discussion of this sort at this particular moment would be in the public interest. If there is a general desire—[HON. MEMBERS: "We are content"]—and if that desire is concurred in by the right hon. Gentleman opposite—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, no"]—I shall be quite prepared to put down the Foreign Office Vote for Thursday. But I would say to my hon. Friends behind me, in all seriousness and with a full sense of responsibility, that while we are far from desiring in any way to burke or to postpone discussion on this subject, I do not think, in view of the enormous and very delicate interests involved, that any great advantage will arise from discussion.

Apart from what the right hon. Gentleman has said, I should myself have considered it in the last degree undesirable to have a discussion at this moment.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a very strong opinion in this country against the action in this matter of His Majesty's Government, and that, though this House may not be in a position to discuss it, it is being discussed in every newspaper in the country and in every other Parliament in Europe?

Before the Foreign Office takes any further action in regard to the blockade of Montenegro will this House have an opportunity to discuss it?

Can an undertaking not be given that before troops or marines are landed this House will have an opportunity of discussing a matter which may easily develop into a European War?

In view of the absurdity of this position, may I now move the Adjournment of the House to discuss this question?

To discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely, the action of His Majesty's Government in taking part in a naval demonstration against a friendly Power.

The hon. Member asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House in order to call attention to a matter of urgent public importance, namely, the action of His Majesty's Government in taking part in a naval demonstration against Montenegro.

The pleasure of the House not having teen signified, Mr. SPEAKER called on those Members who supported the Motion to rise in their places, and, fewer than forty Members having accordingly risen, the House proceeded to the Business of the Day.

Orders Of The Day

Bill Presented

Sunday Closing (Ireland) Bill

"To provide for the closing of public-houses on Sunday in Ireland, including Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford, and Belfast." Presented by Mr. FETHERSTONHAUGH; supported by Mr. Hugh Barrie, Mr. Horner, and Mr. MacCaw; to be read a second time upon Monday, 21st April, and to be printed. [Bill 79.]

Provisional Collection Of Taxes

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

I beg to move:—

"That—
  • (a) a Resolution passed by the Committee of Ways and Means of this House for the imposition of any new tax, or for the variation of any existing tax, or for the renewal for a further period of any tax which is of a temporary character, whether at the same or a different rate, and whether with or without modifications, shall have statutory effect for a limited period; and
  • (b) where a Resolution so provides for the renewal of a temporary tax, all statutory provisions which were in force with reference to that tax as last imposed by Act of Parliament shall, during the said period, have full force and effect with respect to the tax as renewed by the Resolution; and
  • (c) payments or deductions on account of a temporary tax made within two months after the date of the expiration of the tax shall, subject to conditions as to repayment or recoupment in certain events, be deemed to be legal payments and deductions."
  • In moving this Resolution, I would like to make a few observations, although the matter has been discussed, I think, on two or three separate occasions recently. What we are proposing is not an innovation upon, at least, the practice of the Treasury in respect of new taxes. On the contrary, it is a means of regularising and legalising the usage and custom which has been followed by every Government for at least sixty years—so far as custom is concerned for a period that goes still further back. It is a custom and a practice that has been in accordance with public interest, and with the convenience of the taxpayer. Since 1842 it has been followed in respect to the Income Tax. It is true that for some years when the Income Tax was triennial it was not necessary that this practice should come into operation for two out of the three years that this Resolution was carried. But since 1861, it has been the unbroken practice of the Exchequer, and of this House, to pass this Resolution, and collect the Income Tax before the Finance Act embodying the Resolution was carried into law. This custom has been recognised in Sir Erskine May's "Parliamentary Practice." It says:—
    "Anticipatory authority is imparted by usage to the Resolutions of the Committee of Ways and Means which impose or alter taxation under orders from the Treasury. Although statutory legal effect may not for some time be given to those Resolutions, the dates of the increased duties are calculated from the date prescribed by the Resolution as soon as agreed by the Committee and upon the date following that agreed upon by the Committee if no date is specified in the Resolution. These proceedings are for the time being without legal authority, but are subsequently legalised by the Statute under which these altered duties are levied."
    And Lord Halsbury, in his great work upon the Laws of England, says:—
    "The financial proposals of the Government are Carried in the form of Resolutions moved by the Chancellor of the Exchequer or some other Minister in Committee of Ways and Means, and these Resolutions require to be confirmed by Act of Parliament and the assent of the Crown before they have the force of law, and in order to safeguard the revenue and to prevent forestalments any Resolutions for tie imposition of new taxes, the altering or renewal or the increase of duties, is acted upon as soon as agreed upon in Committee of Ways and Means."
    These two authorities state what is undoubtedly the practice in this country for several generations, and all we propose to do is to give statutory recognition to that practice, which has been unbroken for over sixty years. We are presenting no innovation; there is no revolution involved; it is simply a statutory recognition of the existing position, usage and custom. I could quote two or three other passages, but I need not do so, but there is a statement in the "Times" of 1909 to the same effect. I should like to refer to one Act of Parliament passed in 1876 by a Conservative Government which gives something that looks like statutory recognition to this practice. The Customs Consolidation Act of 1876 provides that

    "in all cases where any new duties of Customs or other duties, rates, or charges under the management, collection, or control of the Commissioners of Customs are, or may be, imposed by any Act of Parliament or by any Resolution of the House of Commons in view of any duties payable at the time of the passing of such Resolutions, such form of duties are continued payable except in cases where such Act or Resolution imposing such duties shall otherwise provide."

    When that Act was quoted in the action of Bowles v. the Bank of England, Mr. Justice Parker said that seemed to be a recognition that Customs Duties might be imposed by Resolution of the House of Commons. It did give some sort of indication that in his judgment this case did not prejudge the question whether Customs can be levied by Resolution of the House of Commons. There is similar recognition in the Isle of Man Act of 1887. As a matter of fact this custom and practice was never challenged in the Courts of Law until last year in this country. It was challenged twice, I think, in Australia, and on both occasions the Supreme Courts of Victoria and New South Wales acted upon the assumption that a Resolution of their own House of Representatives was adequate authority for the Treasury in these circumstances.

    Was that not a Resolution with regard to Customs, not Income Tax?

    4.0 P.M.

    I am not quite sure about that. I think it was Customs, but the practice has been based upon public interest and the defence of the subject. As far as public interest is concerned, it is perfectly obvious it is to the interest of the public that there should be power of this kind until Parliament has had time to thoroughly consider these proposals and to embody them in the Finance Act. Otherwise the Treasury might lose a good deal of revenue owing to forestalments. In the case of Customs you might lose the whole of your revenue for a year owing to forestalments. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for instance, proposed to put on either new duties or additional duties upon any commodity, if he had to wait for statutory effect to be given to the Resolutions by Act of Parliament he might lose the whole of the revenue which would be forestalled for a year. That would be a very serious matter, especially in the case of a War Tax, where the money is required for that particular year. If an increase were imposed for permanent purposes you might lose the money for the first year, but you would recover it in the second, third, and fourth year, and so on; but if it was a new duty or a variation of old duties which were imposed for specific purposes in the course of the particular year, it might well be that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would lose the whole of the revenue he needed for some great national purpose. With regard to the Income Tax—and I observe the right hon. Gentleman opposite seemed to draw some distinction between Income Tax and Customs—the same thing would apply if you increase the Income Tax by a considerable sum as was done in 1901 and 1902, when there was an increase of Income Tax upon two successive years. Supposing in that case the Chancellor of the Exchequer had to wait until the Budget became an Act of Parliament, and until the Assent of the Crown was given in those years somewhere about the end of July, he might lose very considerable revenue or at least something substantial unless he were in a position to act upon the Resolution of the House of Commons from the very date that these taxes were imposed. It is quite true he might be able to provide against it, but it would be a matter of great inconvenience and some loss. It would certainly mean loss of income or, at any rate, of a certain amount of income. And as far as the public are concerned there is no doubt it would be a great inconvenience not only to bankers, but to agents and brokers unless they were able to deduct at the source. Supposing they were bound to keep a record of every transaction it would undoubtedly mean great inconvenience to them.

    I do not think it would be contended by anyone that so far as bankers are concerned it would be a considerable convenience to them to deduct from dividends when they become payable. So this practice which has existed has been found to be for the convenience of the subject and in the interests of the public, and that is the reason why it has gone on for at least sixty years without being challenged in the Law Courts. I noticed the other day, when we were discussing this matter, that it was said, I think by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcester, that there has been a change in the practice of the Government of the day. Very well, that only comes to the question of safeguards and limits. I agree that that may be a very good argument for putting a limit upon the life of a Resolution, but the question of limiting is a question for the Committee. You cannot say of a Resolution of the House of Commons that it is to go on for all time; it must have statutory effect, and it must be embodied in an Act of Parliament. It is essential there should be a limit to the Resolution, and the question of the reasonableness of the limit should be properly, I think, discussed in Committee. We propose in the Resolution we shall submit to the House, the 31st August. I think that is a reasonable limit. In 1907 the limit was six months from the date of the Resolution. I see the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for West St. Pancras (Mr. Cassel) has suggested three months, but I do not think that is adequate for the purpose of carrying out a large measure of finance. It might be adequate where there are no new taxes imposed, but I can quite understand that there might be proposals in a Budget brought forward by hon. Members on the other side of the House which might be so controversial that you could not carry it in three months. In that case the Government would find themselves in difficulties at the end of three months with regard to the Income Tax, the Tea Duty, and any variations of the taxes, because they would be bound to lose, and it would create a good deal of confusion and trouble. Therefore I do not think three months is anything like adequate for the purpose. At the same time I agree that there ought to be a very strict limit, and I should certainly agree on the Committee stage to the insertion of a very strict limitation. I find that during the last forty or fifty years we have had twelve Budgets, one of them introduced by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire (Mr. Austen Chamberlain). I think it was introduced on the 1st August.

    That was owing to the undue prolongation of the stages of Bills in the House of Lords, due to the sudden interest in finance and the unexpected loquacity of one of the right hon. Gentleman's colleagues.

    I think the unexpected loquacity of somebody is an element which every Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to have in view. I might point out that in the case of the War Budgets of Lord St. Aldwyn, three months would not have covered that case. Both of his Budgets came outside the limit of three months, and there would have been a lapse of at least a fortnight or three weeks before the Act came into operation. If it is convenient I will now come to the question of the Amendments, and I will deal with them.

    The Government are anxious not to extend the practice in any way. They do not wish to go beyond what is undoubtedly the practice, and I will indicate what I mean. Take the Amendment put down by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for West St. Pancras. He wishes to confine this power to "Customs, or Excise, or Income Tax." I think what the hon. and learned Member means is that he does not want any other principle established.

    I quite agree. That would be an extension of the practice, and therefore the hon. and learned Member's Amendment is a perfectly legitimate one. I think, however, it would be better if this Amendment came after the Committee stage of the Bill. On this point, however, I wish to make a general observation. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite are just as interested in this matter as we are. If Amendments are moved on purely enabling Resolutions, it means that you have two money stages for every Money Bill, and that is a very serious departure from precedent. I would suggest, not merely in the interests of the Government, but in the interests of the Opposition as well, that it is undesirable that a mere enabling Resolution, drafted in the broadest terms to give full play in Committee of moving Amendments, should be limited at this stage by all sorts of Amendments. I agree that hon. Members are entitled to ask from the Government what Amendments we are prepared to accept at this stage. That I shall indicate, but I very respectfully suggest that it is not desirable at this stage to set up what is a very serious new precedent, and one which the Opposition certainly may suffer more from than even we do, considering the sort of financial prospect they have got in their minds, the prospect, not merely of discussing a Resolution, but of actually moving Amendments and limitations to it. I think that is a very serious departure, and before we proceed to the Amendment I should like some indication from those responsible for the Opposition as to whether they think this is a desirable practice.

    Having made those general observations I will indicate what the Amendments are. The first Amendment I will deal with is that standing in the name of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for West St. Pancras which proposes to insert the words: "Of Customs, or Excise, or Income Tax." That Amendment I propose to accept, although I should very much prefer to accept it on the Committee Stage or embody it in the Bill to having it inserted here, because it is a serious departure from precedent. There is another Amendment standing in the name of the same hon. and learned Member to insert the words "Subject to conditions as to repayment or recoupment in certain events." I have no objection to the insertion of those words except the general one which I have already raised. Then the hon. and learned Member for West St. Pancras has three Amendments down to omit the word "limited." In the Bill itself I propose an actual limitation, but what I suggest is that this question should not be discussed twice over. With regard to the actual form of the limitation proposed by the hon. and learned Gentleman, I rather object to it because I feel it will be impossible to insert them in this Resolution. The terms of his proposal are

    "not exceeding three months, provided always that an Act of Parliament imposing, varying, or renewing such tax pursuant to such Resolution shall have received the Royal Assent within such period."

    That is clearly a matter which ought to be dealt with in the Bill. I may say that the principle of it we accept and we shall certainly embody the spirit of it in the Bill. I should, however, object to the words being inserted in that form. I do not object to the initial or the fixed period, but I hope the hon. and learned Gentleman will not press the two lines of the proviso, and if the Government promise to embody the principle of this Amendment, the hon. and learned Member will have an opportunity of criticising our proposals in Committee. The same remarks apply to the Amendments of the hon. Member for East Birmingham (Mr. Steel-Maitland), which provides a limitation of three months provided that a second Resolution with reference to the same tax shall not be moved in the same Session. That we also accept in principle, but I think it would be fatal to insert the words in that form, because we often have to get a second Resolution, not because it is a new tax, but because occasionally certain alterations are necessary, and you have to get a second Resolution on practically the same tax. I can see what the hon. Gentleman has got in his mind, and I am willing to meet him on that point. What he has in mind would be an infringement of the spirit of the Act, and I agree that there should be words to prevent that, but I think he must recognise that the words he has proposed would be very dangerous. He says that a second Resolution with reference to the same tax shall not be moved in the same Session. I think that is much too hard a line to draw, because some alteration may be necessary in consequence of criticism in debate. The other limitation proposed is in regard to payments or deductions made within two months. According to our proposals we shall be able to collect a temporary tax for about two months before the introduction of the Budget. I can quite see the objection which is raised to our proposal, because it is thought that it puts a premium on the late introduction of the Budget. I am prepared to meet the hon. Member there, and I would suggest that three weeks would not be sufficient. The period depends on Easter and the arrangements made by the House for Easter. I have seen a fortnight's holidays at Easter, and it might be very inconvenient in this case if you were forced to introduce your Budget within three weeks, especially under certain conditions which might arise at Easter. I would suggest as a compromise that two months should be cut down to one month, and that would give us an extra week.

    Does the right hon. Gentleman contemplate that his Resolution might run over beyond the end of the Financial Resolution, and that the Resolution might be moved in March in the next financial year?

    Mr. LLOYD GEORGE