House Of Commons
Monday, 25th February, 1918.
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Cardiff Gas Bill, Commercial Gas Bill, Gas Light and Coke Company Bill, Hastings and St. Leonard's Gas Bill, Maidenhead Gas Bill, Newcastle-upon-Tyne and Gateshead Gas Bill, Plymouth and Stonehouse Gas Bill, Portsea Island Gas Light Bill, Richmond Gas Bill, Southampton Gas Bill, South Metropolitan Gas Bill, South Shields Gas Bill, South Suburban Gas Bill, Swansea Gas Bill, York Gas Bill,
To be read a second time upon Wednesday.
British Museum
Petition of the Trustees of the British Museum, for Grant-in-Aid ( King's Recommendation signified); referred to the Committee of Supply.
Army (Supplementary Estimate, 1917–18)
Estimate presented of the further Sum required to be voted for the Army for the year ending 31st March, 1918 [by Command] ; referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed. [No. 14.]
Army (Appropriation Account)
Copy presented of the Appropriation Account for 1916–17, with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon, and upon the Store Accounts of the Army [by Act] ; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 15.]
Army (Clothing Factory)
Annual Accounts presented of the Royal Army Clothing Factory for the year 1916–1917, with Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon [by Act] ; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 16.]
Foreign Trade And Commerce
Return presented relative thereto [ordered 20th February ; Sir Albert Stanley]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 17.]
Ministry Of Food
Copies presented of Potatoes (Export from Ireland) Order, 1918, Potatoes (Distribution) Order, 1918, Rice (Retail Prices) Order, 1918, Live Stock (Restriction of Slaughter) Order, 1917, Horse and Poultry Mixtures Order, 1917 (General Licence), Beans, Peas, and Pulse (Retail Prices) Order, 1917, Oats (Scotland and Ireland Restriction) Order, 1918, Order amending Grain (Prices) Order, 1917, Bacon, Ham, and Lard (Provisional Prices) Order, 1917, Milk (Registration of Dealers) Order, 1918, and Cattle Feeding-stuffs (Maximum Prices) Order, 1918, made by the Food Controller under the Defence of the Realm Regulations [by Command] ; to lie upon the Table.
Board Of Education
Copy presented of Minute of the Board of Education, dated 25th February, 1918, increasing the value of Pensions which have been granted under the Code of Regulations for Public Elementary Schools and are in force at the date of this Minute [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Saint Olave's, Southwark, Church Bill
Copy presented of Report of the Attorney-General on the Bill [pursuant to Standing Order 175 a] ; referred to the Committee on the Bill.
Shops Act, 1912
Copy presented of Closing Order made under the Act by the Council of the undermentioned local authority, and confirmed by the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland:
Urban district of Lisburn
[by Act] ; to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers To Questions
War
Lower-Grade Civil Servants (Pensions)
2.
asked the President of the Board of Trade the number of lower-grade Civil servants in receipt of pensions of less than £ 100 per annum who through age, infirmity, or other valid reason are unable to supplement their allowance, with the view of granting them a temporary increase during the period of the War owing to the increased cost of living, which is now 106 per cent. above pre-war rate?
I have nothing to add to my previous answers on this subject.
Canal Traffic
3.
asked the President of the Board of Trade, considering the danger that might accrue owing to any interruption to the sea-borne traffic with the Port of London, if he will say what steps are being taken to develop the canal traffic between the Ports of Bristol and Liverpool on the West Coast and London on the East?
The points raised by the hon. and gallant Gentleman have for some time been before the Canal Control Committee, and have recently been specially considered. I am advised that the particular routes to which he refers are not under present conditions, and in view of the great shortage of labour on canals, capable of any great development of through traffic to London, but some traffic has been conveyed.
:Considering the congestion on the railways and the impossibility of feeding London by railways alone, if seaborne traffic should be cut off, should not everything possible be done to make these canals available at an early date?
Everything possible is being done.
:Will the hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of calling the attention of the Minister of National Service to this matter, in order to let him have some of the 100,000 Russians here to help him to clear the canals?
I do not know whether that kind of labour would be of any service.
Tungsten Ore (Restricted Exports)
4.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, during the War, prior to September, 1915, any Tungsten ore was exported from the United Kingdom to Germany viâ neutral markets; and, if so, what was the name of the firm or firms who exported such ore?
:So far as I am aware, no Tungsten ore has been exported from this country to Germany viâ neutral markets since the outbreak of war. I should be very glad to receive any information which may be in the possession of the hon. and gallant Gentleman tending to show that such exportation has taken place.
Coasting Service (Railway Fares)
5.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that a number of seamen engaged in the coasting service are unable to claim the privileges as regards railway passes which are granted to seamen who are discharged before a mercantile marine officer; and if he will consider means of enabling the crews of coasting vessels who are not so discharged to obtain a railway warrant to their usual port of discharge without payment or authority to travel to their homes at the old fare without the 50 per cent. increase, especially in view of the condition that voyages to the North of France are counted as coasting voyages?
:This question of extending to seamen in the home and coasting trades the same special railway facilities as are given to seamen discharged at the larger ports has been considered, but there are considerable administrative difficulties in the way, and it has not hitherto been found practicable to make the extension.
Will the hon. Gentleman look into this matter, because seamen from the North of England who are landed at Southampton have a very dear railway fare to pay to get home?
:I have already looked into it, but if the hon. Gentleman has any case of that kind I will investigate the matter further.
Russia
6.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether all treaties entered into between this country and Russia before the War remain valid?
:Any general answer to this question might turn out misleading, so the hon. Gentleman must forgive me if I do not attempt one.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Foreign Office have been formally advised of Russia's attitude in signing peace, and what is the position now, and whether Russia is to be regarded as an ally, enemy, or friendly neutral?
This question refers to treaties before the war.
( by Private Notice)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if this Government has any information at all about what is happening with regard to the signing of peace terms in Russia; if they have not, will they get it; and when they have got it, will they communicate it in such a way that we shall really know what is happening?
:I have a certain amount of information, but I think it will be obvious to my hon. Friend and the House that this is a question which should not be put without notice.
Food Supplies
Acreage Ploughed
9.
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that some war agricultural committees have doubled the original acreage to be ploughed in cases where appeals have been made; whether the Board has issued any Regulation sanctioning this course of procedure; and, if not, whether he is prepared to issue fresh instructions to the war agricultural committees in accordance with the views he has expressed in public?
No Regulation has been issued by the Board on the particular point referred to, but there seems no reason why a committee should not increase the acreage to be ploughed if, after hearing the case, they are satisfied that it would be in the national interest to do so.
10.
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether dairy farmers and graziers accustomed to produce meat and milk are expected to plough up more than one-ninth of their grass land; and whether the Board of Agriculture have issued any instructions to the war agricultural committees defining clearly the amount of acreage which should be ploughed on farms of this description?
:The programme of the Department contemplated the breaking up of one-ninth of the total area of grass in the country as a whole, but it was never suggested that this proportion should be applied to individual holdings. The committees were urged to select carefully the land best suited to arable cultivation, and to consider each case on its merits. It is impossible to lay down definite rules which can be applied to all the varying conditions of different farms, and the acreage to be ploughed on any particular farm must be left to the discretion of the practical men composing the agricultural executive committees. A letter has, however, recently been issued to agricultural executive committees dealing with the breaking up of grass land in the occupation of dairy farmers, and I am sending a copy to my hon. and gallant Friend.
Potatoes
11.
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture how many potato growers in Great Britain have received or are to receive payment under the potato guarantee price for 1917; and what is the total amount paid or to be paid?
I have been asked to reply. The number of potato growers in Great Britain who have received compensation under the Potato Order No. 2, 1917, at the present moment is approximately 800, and the sum of money so distributed is approximately £20,000. The number of potato growers who will receive payment, and the amount that they will receive, cannot at the present time be estimated accurately.
:Does the hon. Gentleman still adhere to the principle of not paying compensation to growers of less than four tons?
There is no alteration in that respect.
Wastage
12.
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether there is in operation in connection with the various military camps throughout the country any scheme for saving scraps, wastage of food, swills, and other material and in using the same in connection with the camps in fattening pigs in order to increase the food necessary for the Army; and, if there is no such scheme in operation, whether he will, in conjunction with the Secretary of State for War, take steps to effect the objects indicated in this question?
:A comprehensive scheme is in operation in all military camps for this purpose. The swill is either sold to pig feeders direct, or treated in mechanical plants which produce pig and poultry food in a concentrated form; the surplus fats are at the same time extracted and sold to soap boilers, from whom the Ministry of Munitions obtain the glycerine required for propellant explosives.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether his scheme might not be made operative in connection with the camp itself?
:I do not think I quite follow my hon. Friend. It is in operation in connection with the camp itself.
If I understand the right hon. Gentleman correctly, the residuals are disposed of, otherwise sold, and my question is whether those materials could not be used in connection with the fattening of pigs in the camp itself?
If I understand the hon. Gentleman correctly, he means that the military authorities should go in for keeping pigs.
Why not?
It is a question of who does it best — whether the pig keeper is a better judge than the military authorities. We are anxious that the swill products should be used in the best way possible, and I think they are by the scheme in operation.
May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will communicate with the Food Controller as to how far the waste which has occurred with regard to this swill from the camps is due to the Food Controller's Regulations as to the feeding of pigs, which has prevented the keeping of pigs?
:I do not think there has been for a long time any waste in the utilisation of these swill products.
Is there co-operation between the right hon. Gentleman's Department and the Admiralty, and, if not, will he kindly communicate with the Admiralty as to the waste which is going on in the Navy?
I do not know that my doing so would be welcomed by the Admiralty, but I have no doubt that the representatives of the Admiralty would pay great attention to my hon. Friend.
Allotments
20.
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether his attention has been drawn to a resolution of the Cork Industrial Development Association demanding that immediate steps should be taken to have suitable land contiguous to cities and towns made available on reasonable terms for the provision of allotments for city and town workers ; can he state how much land has been made available for this purpose in the city of Cork and the towns of Cork county; and what assistance has been given by the Department of Agriculture in the matter; what steps are being at present taken to increase the number of town workers' allotments; and what area of land will be brought into cultivation all over Ireland by this method?
The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Approximately fifty-five statute acres were made available for allotments last year in the city of Cork, and in six of the urban districts in Cork county fifty-four statute acres were provided. The lands were obtained by agreement, and, generally speaking, these agreements hold good for the present year, but in one urban district eight additional acres have been acquired by agreement. The Order under the Local Government (Allotments and Land Cultivation) Act, 1917, enabling urban authorities to provide allotment schemes, was issued to all urban district councils in December last, and the councils are also aware of the provisions under the Defence of the Realm Regulations in regard to allotments. Last year there were, approximately, 1,375 statute acres under allotments in Ireland. It is not possible at present to give any estimate of the area to be cultivated in allotments this year. The Department of Agriculture have provided special instructors for allotment holders in Cork city, and arrangements have been made for similar instruction in other towns in county Cork carrying out allotment schemes.
Tillage Order (Ireland)
25.
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether owners of land capable of cultivation are, under a recent Tillage Order, compelled to place under cultivation at least 20 per cent. of their holding; whether, as a result, about 1,500,000 extra acres will be under cultivation this year as compared with 1916; and will he say how many inspectors are now in the employment of his Board to see that this Tillage Order is duly complied with?
:Occupiers of holdings of not less than 10 acres of arable land are required by the Tillage (Ireland) General Order, 1918, made under the Corn Production Act, 1917, subject to certain specified exceptions, to cultivate in 1918 15 per cent. of their land in addition to the area cultivated in 1916. In the case of holdings of not less than 200 acres of Arable land, occupiers are required by the Tillage (Ireland) (Larger Holdings) Order, dated the 1st February, 1918, to cultivate an additional 5 per cent., making a total addition of 20 per cent. No occupier, however, is required to cultivate more than 50 per cent. of his arable land. It is hoped that the area under tillage in 1918 in Ireland will exceed that of 1916 by approximately 1,500,000 acres. The number of inspectors employed to see that these Orders are carried out is forty-nine.
Live-Stock Census
26.
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether he will consider the advisability of taking a census of the live stock in Ireland, with a view to retain a sufficient number for breeding purposes, and also that arrangements shall be made to keep a sufficient supply of meat and milk for the Irish people?
:As the hon. Member was informed on the 22nd January, special returns of live stocks have been obtained from a large number of farmers. These returns indicate that the breeding stock of cattle and pigs is being maintained, and the Department of Agriculture do not think that a special general census of live stock is necessary or advisable. The hon. Member is no doubt aware that Orders have been issued under the Maintenance of Livestock Act, to guard against undue depletion of livestock in Ireland, including milch cows.
Milk
27.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware of the complaints of the Cork Food Control Committee as to the manner in which their representations on the question of the exclusion of the sale of milk in small shops from the Regulations of the Public Meals Order have been treated ; whether resolutions were received by the Minister of Food on the subject and remained unacknowledged; and can he explain why the representations of this committee are treated with such scant consideration?
:I must express my regret that, owing to some unexplained delay, the representations of the Cork Food Control Committee only reached the responsible officer of my Department on the 21st instant. An acknowledgment was sent directly they were received. In the meantime the matter had been considered by the Food Control Committee for Ireland, who intimated that in their opinion it was not desirable to permit the sale of milk as a beverage until supplies became more plentiful.
Sugar (Confectionery)
28.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that the food value of confectionery is not disputed, and that any further curtailment of the raw material must lead to an increased consumption of other foodstuffs which it has now become a matter of urgent need to conserve; whether he is aware of the hardships under which the trade is suffering, and the certainty that a number of workers will be thrown out of employment if he persists in still further reducing sugar supplies; and whether he can state what will be done to provide a remedy?
It is true that most forms of confectionery have some food value, but I cannot admit that they are invariably consumed for that reason. In this trade, as in many others, the restrictions upon the use of raw material rendered necessary by the circumstances of the time have seriously affected all those concerned, and the possibility of affording some relief to those most dependent upon the sale of confectionery is being considered by the Ministry, but I am not yet in a position to make any announcement upon the subject.
Will the hon. Gentleman say whether all these shops will be treated alike, whether the little shop or the big shop; and is he aware that quite a number of the small shops are being put absolutely out of business while the large shops can supply any quantity?
It is because all shops are being treated alike that these claims are now being pressed upon us. Consideration is being given to the question whether, in the case of shops where the people provide only one class of goods and are wholly dependent for their livelihood on that one class of food, some special relief should not be given to those people.
:Will the hon. Gentleman see that persons suffering from tuberculosis and other illnesses requiring special food will be allowed that special food on the recommendation of a medical officer?
Provision is already made for cases of that kind.
Some doctors do not know it.
Tea
31.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether his attention has been called to a recent prosecution for food hoarding at Saffron Walden which failed, as the magistrates held that tea is not a food; whether he is aware that other magistrates have convicted for the hoarding of tea; and whether he will issue an Amending Older to make clear the intention of Orders issued, so that the public and justices may know whether tea, coffee, and other beverages come within the Food Orders?
asked whether he has noticed that at Saffron Walden and Finchley the magistrates have refused to convict under summons for hoarding tea on the grounds that it is not an article of food any more than wine or other manufactured drinks; and whether the Ministry intend to appeal against these judgments so as to obtain an authoritative legal decision or to withdraw their scheme for tea control, as the increased quantities which the Government are now bringing into the country appear to make it unnecessary?
My attention has been called to this decision, and I am aware that other magistrates have taken a contrary view. The question of an appeal is under consideration, and it may be desirable to amend the Food Hoarding Order so as to bring tea specifically within its provisions. In any case there is no intention of withdrawing the Government scheme for the control of tea.
Is the hon. Gentle man aware that there are no food queues about this morning?
I have not been round to see.
I have.
Is it the fact that magistrates can decide against the Orders of the Ministry of Food and their Regulations, and is it proposed by the Ministry to insist on its Regulations despite any decision given in any Court?
The magistrates have not decided against the Orders of the Food Ministry. The magistrates have given an interpretation, and, as my reply has indicated, we have now under consideration the question of including tea as one of the articles under the Regulations of the Food Hoarding Order.
33.
asked whether the forms required for claims for drawback on the price of tea under the new scheme cannot be printed and ready before a month; whether the railway certificates under which the tea is to be carried free are also not available; and, in these circumstances, whether the operation of the scheme will be postponed until the necessary preparations for working it are completed?
The forms required for claims for drawback on the price under the new scheme are in the printers' hands and will be ready at a very early date; the railway conveyances notes are available at the offices of the Tea Control Committee; and there is no intention to postpone the operation of the scheme.
Hoarding
34.
asked whether the Food Control Department claims the right of calling upon the police to enter houses on their own responsibility or under instructions to search for and seize, if they exist, any hoards of food; whether any such action on these lines has hitherto been taken; and whether the authorities are unable to carry out these investigations, if necessary, by means of officials of the Food Control Department?
Under Regulation 51 of the Defence of the Realm Regulations, any police constable who has reason to suspect that an offence against those Regulations has been, or is being, committed on any premises, may enter and inspect such premises, and may seize anything found therein which appears to be used or intended to be used in any manner contrary to law. By Clause 3 of the Food Hoarding Order any person specially authorised in writing by the Food Controller may enter upon any premises in which he has reason to believe that any article of food is being kept in contravention thereof, but such official has no right of seizure. I am informed that in a few cases where it was thought that inspection without seizure might result in waste, a police constable was asked to accompany the official inspector, in order to prevent any waste or removal of food for the purpose of avoiding confiscation. The police have not been called upon by the Department to make independent investigations.
White Flour In Bread
35.
asked what amount of imported white flour is allowed to be used by the London master bakers; the amount that is allowed to be used by the London master bakers; and the amount that is allowed to be used by the Scottish master bakers?
The maximum percentage of imported flour that bakers can use at present in the manufacture of bread is 25 per cent. in the case of England, Wales, and Ireland and 50 per cent. in the case of Scotland. The reason for the higher percentage in the latter case is that Scotland is so greatly undermilled that before the War Scottish bakers used a much larger quantity of imported flour than other parts of the United Kingdom, and had, in addition, considerable quantities of home-milled flour sent from England.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that under this differentiation the bread in Scotland is certainly much superior to the bread in England, in consequence of the white flour?
Why not come to Scotland?
I am satisfied with the South.
I am not aware of it, but it may well be so, in view of the facts I have mentioned.
Is it not a fact that the Scottish bread was always superior to the British?
Munitions
Explosion In Factory
14.
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he can now give any further information in regard to the explosion at the munition works in the eastern counties?
There was a certain amount of damage to one or two works in the neighbourhood, and the factory itself suffered seriously. The loss of output is not, however, of serious importance. The lay-out of the factory was such that the magazines containing considerable quantities of explosives were not touched. I am glad to say that the arrangements for enabling the workers to get away quickly were so satisfactory that no one was injured.
Examining And Receiving Depot, Dublin
75.
asked what progress has been made in preparing the Westland Row premises as an examining and receiving depot; and when it is expected to be in operation?
A part of the Westland Row premises has been handed over to the War Department, and every effort is being made to prepare it for immediate use. The building cannot be entirely placed at our disposal until the present occupants, who are engaged upon war work, are able to transfer their plant, etc., to new premises which are in course of construction. Special priority certificates for the supply of materials have been obtained to expedite the completion of the new building with the object of hastening the complete evacuation of the Westland Row premises. It is impossible to name the date on which the examining and receiving depot will be in full operation, owing to the uncertainty as to the dates of delivery of material, etc.
National Shell Factory, Dublin
13.
asked the Minister of Munitions if he is aware of the discontent in the National Shell Factory, Dublin; if he is aware that on Friday, 15th February, two carpenters were dismissed without notice for applying for the bonuses which they believed they were entitled to and is being paid to other men in the same employment for similar work; if he will cause inquiries as to why these men were ordered out of their employment and told to be outside the door in ten minutes; and if he will see that the bonuses shall be paid to them from April, 1917, as awarded by the Committee of Production?
The hon. Member has been misinformed. Carpenters in the Dublin National Shell Factory are receiving, and will continue to receive, all the bonuses to which they are entitled. No carpenters have been dismissed without notice. One carpenter received a week's notice on Friday, the 15th instant, as his work was considered unsatisfactory.
Naval And Military Pensions And Grants
16.
asked the Pensions Minister whether he is now in a position to state whether it is proposed to bring the pensions of discharged and disabled soldiers in previous wars in which this country has been engaged into line with the pensions granted to discharged and disabled soldiers in this War : and, if so, will he state when this Order is to come into force?
I hope very shortly to be able to announce the terms of a new Royal Warrant dealing with this subject.
Can the hon. Gentleman say when that is likely to take place?
I cannot say precisely. I said very shortly.
17.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that several demands have been made by Mrs. Mary Sullivan, of Umeraboy, Knocknagree, county Cork, for dependant's pension due to her in respect of the late Private Daniel Sullivan, No. 375,089, Royal Munster Fusiliers, from 15th June, 1917, to 4th December, 1917; can he explain why no reply was given to the letters written regarding this claim, and why its payment has been delayed?
I have not been able to trace the receipt in my Department of the several demands and inquiries to which the hon. Member refers. Payment of Mrs. Sullivan's pension was first made on the 6th December last, and the arrears due to her, which were withheld pending inquiry as to advances made by the local committee, have now been paid.
Can my hon. Friend say whether arrangements have been made for answering letters promptly at Chelsea, and may we expect answers inside of a week?
The whole of that matter is now being considered, and steps are being taken, and I hope that there will be a great improvement shortly in that direction.
37.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether civil liabilities grants have been reduced as a result of the recent increases in Army pay notwithstanding that it was explicitly stated, at the time that such pay was increased, that it would not affect the civil liabilities grant?
No grants have been reduced as a result of the general increase of soldiers' pay. Where reductions have been made these have been in view of special rates of pay in individual cases.
So I may assume what I infer in my question is right, that there can be no reduction on account of recent increases?
My hon. Friend must only assume that there can be no reductions on account of the general increase.
That is the recent one?
15.
asked the Minister of Pensions whether the amounts paid for pensions to the widows and orphans of soldiers and sailors are less than the amount paid as allotment and separation allowances; and, if so, seeing that the pensions ought to approximate to those allotment and separation allowances, whether the whole question will be reconsidered?
In certain circumstances the amount of the pension and children's allowances is less than the amount of separation allowances and allotment, while in other cases it amounts to more. The whole question of children's allowances is at present under consideration.
Is it not the fact that the majority of cases of widows and children do actually receive less than they received in separation allowances?
Yes, I believe that in the majority of cases that is so.
Demobilisation (Skilled Workers)
18.
asked the Minister of Reconstruction if it is part of the policy of his Department to secure that on demobilisation highly skilled workers shall return to the trades for which they have been fitted by long periods of apprenticeship, and that during the continuance of the War restrictions are not imposed upon such trades as will result in a reduction in their capacity of affording employment to such skilled workers after the War; and whether he will take steps accordingly respecting the effect upon this problem of the Paper Restrictions Order in so far as the trade of lithographer is concerned?
Every facility will be given to enable skilled workers to return to their original trades at the end of the War. I would remind the hon. Member that the Paper Restrictions Order is a matter over which I have no control, but I may say that the importance of preventing the unnecessary withdrawal of skilled men from industry is being borne in mind.
Irish Trade Returns
19.
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether complaint has been made by the Cork Industrial Development Association of the delay in publishing the annual Returns of Irish trade, agriculture, fisheries, banking, railway, and shipping for the year 1916; and can he explain why these vital statistics of Irish commercial life have not been published at an earlier date?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. In the present emergency new statistical Returns of vital importance are urgently required and many of these Returns have been compiled by the Department of Agriculture for Ireland. Though the trained staff has been depicted through enlistment in His Majesty's Forces, the tabulation of the usual annual Returns is well advanced, but publication of some of them has been necessarily delayed, and only those containing matters of urgent importance have been published earlier than heretofore. No unnecssary delay will take place in the issue of the Returns to which the hon. Member refers.
Industrial Insurance Agents (Wages)
36.
asked the Minister of Labour if any decision has been arrived at with reference to the demands of industrial insurance agents for a living wage?
I have nothing as yet to add to my previous replies on the subject.
Flax Growing (Ireland)
44.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether, seeing that the growing of flax has been firmly established in the district surrounding Killorglin, Kerry, during the past two years without any assistance from the Department, steps will betaken, cither in co-operation with the Fibre Corporation or independently, to establish a scutching mill in the district?
The hon. Member is under a misapprehension in supposing that there has been no assistance from the Department of Agriculture. The Department have specially provided the services of an instructor in flax growing. The flax produced in the district has been grown for the Fibre Corporation, Dromore, county Down, who take over the crop from the growers and make the necessary provision for scutching.
Will the hon. and learned Gentleman answer the last part of my question, whether any assistance will be given to establish a scutching mill, instead of sending 200 miles away?
If the hon. Gentleman desires any further information perhaps he will put a question down.
Supreme War Council
45.
asked the Prime Minister whether the Cabinet has considered the possible circumstances in which the military representative at Versailles may, in accord with the representatives of the other Allies, advise a concerted movement, and that this advice may not find acceptance with the Commander-in-Chief and may be referred by him to the Cabinet, which will refer it to the Chief of the Staff, reserving to itself the final decision; and whether, when this decision is communicated to the representative at Versailles, he will be bound to conform to the Cabinet's plan?
I cannot add anything on this subject to the statement recently made by the Prime Minister.
Has this question been submitted to the War Cabinet, because even on those terms does it not bring out that this is a case of incompetence on an important question, masked by a mere pretence of statesmanship?
It has not been brought specially to the attention of the War Cabinet, and if it had, probably they would have taken a different view from the hon. Gentleman.
Do the statements set forth in this question not represent what was described by the Prime Minister, and, if so, is it not altogether an unworkable arrangement?
No answer.
48.
asked the Prime Minister whether the powers and duties that have now been taken from the Chief of the Imperial General Staff to meet the requirements of the Supreme War Council at Versailles will be restored to the Chief of the Imperial General Staff when the Versailles Supreme War Council is dissolved at the end of the War or whenever it is dissolved?
This question is really hypothetical. I regret, therefore, that I cannot answer it ;but I would remind my hon. Friend that the powers and duties of the Chief of the Staff are now precisely what they were before the Order in Council was issued.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the powers withdrawn from the Chief of the Staff are now conferred upon Lord Derby, and, if so, why?
The change represents the powers which were for the time in the hands of the Chief of the Staff and are now in the hands of the Army Council.
But does not that mean that the powers withdrawn from Lord Kitchener are now entrusted to Lord Derby?
No. answer.
This will be raised on the Army Estimates to-day.
Supreme War Council
53.
asked the Prime Minister whether the Serbian General Staff are directly represented on the Staff of the Supreme Allied Council at Versailles; and, if not, whether he will take steps to see that the views of the Serbian Higher Command are communicated direct to the Supreme Allied War Council?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative and to the last part in the affirmative.
Allied War Aims
46.
asked the Prime Minister whether, according to the policy laid down in his speech of 5th January, His Majesty's Government considers that the principle of self-determination should be applied to all territories occupied by the enemy, including the Dobrudjan, Macedonian, and Albanian districts?
I have nothing to add to the various statements which have been made on this subject.
Trade Unions (Votes By Ballot)
47.
asked the Prime Minister, in view of the importance attached to the votes taken by trades unions which directly affect the policy of the country, whether the Government will take immediate steps to confer on the members the same privileges as they possess at elections for Parliament of voting with the secrecy of the ballot?
The method of voting must be a matter for the discretion of the respective unions, and the Governmen could not interfere.
State Trials (France)
50.
asked the Prime Minister whether the British Government propose to have a representative at the Caillaux trial; and, if so, who that representative will be?
No, Sir.
Are the Government anxious, or are they not anxious, to take advantage of information available with regard to German intrigue in this country, and, under these circumstances, will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider that decision, and send someone to the Caillaux trial to hold a watching brief for Britain?
Our interests would be very inadequately served if we had not a better means of doing this than that of sending out a representative.
51.
asked the Prime Minister whether any steps have been taken to ascertain the identity of the person referred to as Robert as being the recipient of Bolo's advances and confidences in this country?
My right hon. Friend bus asked me to reply to this question. Inquiries are being made by the police.
But will the right hon. Gentleman say when inquiries were made, and whether it is not a fact that had the Government had a representative present at Bolo's trial they might have found out there without waiting till afterwards?
I do not think it would help the police in the least to discuss their arrangements.
Is it not a fact that Robert is a man who has spent more than twelve months at the front fighting for England?
I hope my hon. and learned Friend will give me all the information.
52.
asked the Prime Minister whether any diplomatic official or informal representations have been made by the British Government to the French Government requesting the suppression of any evidence which would either directly or indirectly involve any public men in Great Britain in connection with the Bolo or Caillaux trials?
No, Sir.
Submarine Warfare
55.
asked the Prime Minister whether in 1912 Lord Fisher was a member of the Defence Committee ; and whether his memorandum warning the Government that the German submarines would be used against merchant ships was submitted to the Defence Committee and the Admiralty?
Lord Fisher was not at that time a member of the Committee of Imperial Defence, and I am informed that no such memorandum was submitted.
56.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of our present failure to completely stop the submarine menace, the Government will, with the object of stimulating inventive enter prise, consider the advisabiliy of offering a reward of £250,000 to any inventor who can devise some practical method of defeating the enemy's object?
I do not think this suggestion would be effective for the purpose.
Does my right hon. Friend consider that all is being done that can be done, and that there is nothing more to be done in this matter?
If trying to do what is necessary would do it, everything has been done; but I am convinced that the public spirit of the citizens of this country would not be stimulated by the offer of a reward of £250,000.
Does my right hon. Friend think it is in the public interest to allow the first paragraph in the question to appear unchallenged?
I did not think it necessary to say that I and the Government are not responsible for the form of questions.
Could not a special Board of Inventions be set up to examine inventions to deal with submarines?
My hon. and gallant Friend, I am sure, knows that a Board of Inventions has existed since the beginning of the War, and efforts have been made again and again to strengthen it.
Has not the submarine been a failure to a very great extent?
I cannot attempt to give the history of the submarine menace. It has been made quite plain that we have met with more success than we expected, and more success than we hoped, but nobody denies it is still a danger.
5Th Canadian Division
60 and 71.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) whether the War Council have considered the effect on Canadian recruiting if the proposal to break up the 5th Canadian Division, now stationed at Whitley, is carried into effect; (2) whether he is aware that the 5th Canadian Division has been training in England for over a year, and that its efficiency has been recognised at all inspections; whether the Government is aware that it is now proposed to break up this division and that 200 of the superior officers, who have been highly trained, will, in consequence, be forced to return to Canada; and, if so, will he state what action he proposes to take?
The proposal to break up the 5th Canadian Division and to use it as reinforcements for the Canadian troops in France was made by the Canadian authorities.
Army (Special Medical Dietary)
67.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that officers and men who are not rationed by their units, and who are compelled to ration themselves on a special dietary medically prescribed, receive only the usual ration allowance of Is. 9d. per day; that they cannot draw these special prescribed rations from Army stores, as they are not obtainable there; that the cost is greatly in excess of the Is. 9d. daily ration allowance: and, seeing that these officers and men continue to serve their country, although suffering from complaints which require special dieting and treatment, will some thing be done to meet the extra cost to which they are put because of certain disabilities or ill-health contracted on service?
I do not know to what class of officer the hon. and gallant-Member refers, but if he will give me particulars of any case which he has specially in mind, I will look into it,
Venereal Disease
68.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the indignation expressed by the priests and people of Buttevant, county Cork, at the proposal to convert the local military barracks into a hospital for the treatment of venereal disease; and whether, having regard to the opposition of the people of the locality, the proposal will be at once dropped?
My hon. and gallant Friend has sent me a Press notice of a local meeting on the question,for which I am obliged. The matter is receiving consideration, and I can make no definite statement at present
Is it intended to convert the whole of this place into a hospital, and will it never be used again for the purposes of a barracks?
In the answer I have given I have said the whole matter is now being reconsidered.
Commissioned Officers (Rates Of Pay)
69.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to the effect of the issue of Army Orders, dated 26th January, 1918, containing Amendments to the Royal Warrant for pay of the Army in matters of daily rates of pay to certain commissioned officers, whereby quartermasters holding the honorary rank of captain are, until they attain five years' commissioned service, now being paid the same rate of daily pay as a second-lieutenant and 1s. a day less than a lieutenant; and if any steps will be taken to pay this class of officer in accordance with their rank and with due regard to the responsible work expected of and performed by them?
The Army Order in question conveyed the decision of the War Cabinet, reached after very full consideration of the whole question.
Would the hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of putting these deserving officers on the same footing as an ordinary second-lieutenant, who gets an increase of pay after eighteen months' service: these officers are really doing more work than the ordinary officers, and they feel this treatment to be a grievance?
All these questions were very fully considered.
British Prisoners Of War (Holland)
70.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his Department is refusing permission for relatives of British prisoners to go to Holland in any capacity connected with the care of these men; and, if so, whether he will state the grounds actuating this decision?
The decision to prohibit relatives of prisoners of war from going to Holland in any capacity-was reached with reluctance, after consultation with all Departments of State concerned.
Does that prohibit non-relatives?
There is a question on the Paper for to-morrow. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will wait for my answer to that.
Military Service
Conscientious Objectors
78.
asked the Home Secretary whether employment under the Pelham Committee is allowed to count with employment under the Home Office scheme as part of the term entitling conscientious objectors to release?
The answer is in the negative.
Enemy Air Raids
79.
asked the Home Secretary whether he will instruct the police to take the necessary steps to ensure that adequate shelter is provided to British women and children before men of enemy and alien extraction are permitted to enter tubes or other public shelters?
I think it is clear that at a moment of imminent danger such discrimination as is suggested would be impossible, and to attempt it might lead to disaster.
Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman take all possible steps to discourage alien men from leaving their homes and seeking shelter, to the detriment of women in the street, who get crushed in the process?
I much deprecate anyone leaving their homes. As to the other matter, I can only state the steps we have taken to prevent it.
What steps are being taken to make the people well acquainted with the decisions arrived at by the local authorities advising them to keep indoors during air raids?
Several police notices have been issued, and every opportunity is taken to warn the people to stay indoors.
Will the right hon. Gentleman use the Press section of the Government to make the information more public?
There is no Press section.
Aliens (County Of London)
80.
asked the Home Secretary how many men. women, and children of alien extraction are at present residing in the county of London?
These figures are not available.
Why are they not available? Surely it is not giving information to the enemy to tell how many of these aliens we have to put up with in London?
That is not the question. The question is, how many people of alien extraction are in London.
Ireland
57.
asked the Prime Minister whether the condition of a part of Ireland has been under the consideration of the War Cabinet; and whether they have in contemplation any measures to strengthen the hands of the executive in their effort to restore and maintain law and order?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, I can make no statement at present.
Newspaper Proprietors
The following question stood on the Paper in the name of Mr. LLEWELYN WILLIAMS:
50. To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will direct a Return to be made, as asked for by the hon. Member for Carmarthen, as to the Members of the present Administration who are financially interested in newspapers and the names of such newspapers?
I desire to postpone this question.
Arising out of that, will an early opportunity be given to debate this whole question?
Uncoined Gold (Use)
61.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that since the gold coinage was withdrawn from circulation gold cigarette cases, purses, and cases for Treasury notes have been made and sold, and that gold medals commemorative of the Prime Minister's premiership, bearing the portrait of the Prime Minister, have been struck and advertised for sale; whether he has sanctioned this use of gold; and whether he proposes to allow its continuance?
The melting of sovereigns and the import of gold except under Government control have been prohibited; but, having regard to these restrictions, I have not so far found it necessary to take steps to control the use of uncoined gold in thecountry.
Tralee And Fenit Harbour Board
65.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he has received a statement from the Tralee and Fenit Harbour Board showing a decrease in their revenue of several thousands during the past year, entirely due to Government restrictions; and whether, seeing that this amount has all to be borne by already overburdened ratepayers in congested districts, he will take steps to relieve them of a charge for which they have no responsibility and which would be a crushing tax on them?
The statement referred to has been received and inquiries are being made.
M Litvinoff
81 and 82.
asked the Home Secretary (1) whether Litvinoff was concerned in the bank robbery at Tiflis; whether he has held a German passport in the name of Gustav Graf; and what is the real name of this person who describes himself as Litvinoff; and (2) whether he can now state whether inquiries have been made with regard to a person describing himself as Maximovitch Litvinoff; and whether he has passed under the various names of Gustav Graf, Bakkah, Buchman, Harrison, Vallach, and A. Finkelstein Litvinoff?
I am informed that M. Maxim Litvinoff's original name was David Mordeovitch Finkelstein, and that he has at different times used the names of Buchman and Harrison, and probably those of Graf and Vallach. As to the remainder of the question, my inquiries are not yet complete.
May I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman whether it is not the fact that the gentleman named is not Finkelstein, but actually Murdoch Nordkovich Buchman; may I also ask whether his attention has been called to the fact that this man was here fn London until quite recently, when he was described as Finkelstein; and, having regard to the fact that he is evidently a rolling stone, a dangerous character—seeing that he changes his name from day to day—will he see that he is sent back to Russia at the earliest possible moment?
My information is the man's name is Finkelstein. In his later years in London he took the name of Buchman. He is not the same man as the one referred to by the hon. and gallant Gentleman.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whence this man received his passport, and who signed it; and how a German Jew was able to be a citizen of Russia ; and whether any German Jews are allowed to be—
The hon. Member must give notice of that question.
Poisoned Sweets
83.
asked the Home Secretary whether he has received any information as to poisoned sweets being dropped by enemy aircraft in London and the Home Counties; and, if so, can he state what action he proposes to take in order to warn the public, and especially children, of the dangers of such sweets?
Sweets found in circum stances suggesting that they might have been dropped from aircraft have been examined on several occasions, but in no instance has any poison been found in them. Some sweets which were picked up recently at South end and which, on examination, were found to contain traces of arsenic such as might have been due to impurity in the materials were certainly not dropped from aircraft.
Liquor Traffic (Purchase)
54.
asked whether it is proposed to introduce a Bill for the purchase of the liquor traffic in this country during the present Session?
There is, I think, no probability of such a Bill being introduced during the present Session.
When will the Reports of the Liquor Trade Committees be published?
The last Report was only received the other day. If my hon. Friend will put a question later on I will answer it.
Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to leave the question where it is, or are we to expect a general statement of the attitude of the Government towards the whole problem?
I cannot hold out any hope that, amidst the pressure of business and other circumstances, we shall have time to bring in legislation.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Prime Minister stated that our greatest enemy was drink, and does this mean that the Government have surrendered?
We have had various enemies at different times, but our greatest enemy now is the Germans.
Poisonous Gas
( by Private Notice)
asked whether there is any truth in the leading article in to-day's "Daily Mail," which states that the German Government have suggested, through neutral channels, that poisonous gas should be forbidden; and, if so, what notice the British Government intend to take of this proposal, if any?
No, Sir; no such suggestion has been received from the German Government.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say definitely that we shall not give up the use of poisonous gas during the present War; and is it not a fact that the reason why the Germans have suggested this is that we have a better gas and better protection and that now the Huns are squealing?
I wish I were as sure of that as the hon. Member. If the Germans ever make such a suggestion I am afraid it will be because they think they are not getting the better of it. I am not at all sure it is not a blind.
Dingle Harbour Board
63.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he has received a statement from the Dingle Harbour Board showing that they will have practically to close the port if some steps are not taken to relieve them; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
My right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary has received the statement referred to, and is making inquiries into the matter.
School Teachers' Register (Ireland)
64.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the Inter mediate Education Board in Ireland have yet established a register for teachers; whether he is aware that it is more than three years since they were authorised to do so; and what is the cause of the delay?
The hon. Member is referred to the answer given by the Chief Secretary to a question on this subject by the hon. Member for East Mayo on 28th January. The observations of the Intermediate Education Board on the draft Regulations have now been received, and the Regulations are in course of being settled.
Congested Districts Board
66.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the building Grant offered by the Estates Commissioners to Mrs. M'Carthy, Ventry estate, Dingle, has been considered wholly inadequate by the Congested Districts Board, which now has charge of the estate ; whether the Congested Districts Board, with this knowledge before it and with power specially given to it by law, refuses to carry out work which it recognises as absolutely essential; and whether, if neither body takes this matter up, Mrs. M'Carthy is to start without a home?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply to his previous question on this matter on the 21st February. The amount of the Grant to be given for buildings under the Evicted Tenants Act rests entirely with the Estates Commissioners. They considered £40 sufficient, and declined to give any more. The Congested Districts Board are not prepared to supplement this Grant.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that under the Act of 1907 it is entirely in the hands of the Congested Districts Board to supplement the Grant if they consider it inadequate?
I am informed that the Congested Districts Board have considered this case, and they do not think it is one for supplementing.
Is it not the fact that the inspector of the Congested Districts Board working in that district has stated that the Grant is wholly inadequate; will the Board, then, take any steps to improve it?
I have no further information.
Bill Presented
EDUCATION BILL,—"to make further provision with respect to Education in England and Wales, and for purposes connected therewith," presented by Mr. HERBERT FISHER ; supported by Mr. Barnes, Mr. Baldwin, and Sir Herbert Lewis.
Is it the intention of the Government to press forward the Second Reading of this Bill and get it through as quickly as possible?
That is a question for the Leader of the House.
I am prepared to answer that question.
Bill to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed.
Orders Of The Day
Supply—2Nd Allotted Day
Army Estimates, 1918–19
[PROGRESS.]
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
Number Of Land Forces
Motion made, and Question again proposed,
"That a number of Land Forces (including Air Force), not exceeding 5,000,000, all ranks, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at Home and Abroad, excluding His Majesty's Indian Possessions, during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1919."
I wish to raise this afternoon a number of questions on the Vote which I think require some kind of answer or explanation from the Financial Secretary or the Under-Secretary for War. The first point I want to raise is concerned with the question of the recent increases of pay in the Army. On Thursday I asked the Financial Secretary if he could ascertain from the various paymasters in the different units whether or not the actual increase awarded by the recent Army Order had actually been paid or not? I suppose there are other hon. Members besides myself who have received complaints from different units as to the non-payment of the so-called increase of pay. That leads me to make this further observation that there remains a very considerable amount of dissatisfaction with the method by which the men in the Army can ascertain what pay they have got and what is the state of their credit at any particular time. If there is one document which the soldiers seem to regard with derision more than any other it is the statement of accounts with which they are furnished by the paymasters from time to time. I would like to say this about the Pay Office, that I think it is due to that office to say that in my experience, as a Member of the House, in my dealings with the Army Pay Office, I have always found that General Sir John Carter, the Pay-master-in-Chief, is not only an able but a very efficient servant of the State. I have never approached him with any difficulty with regard to the pay of any individual soldier without receiving not only courtesy, but a very quick and satisfactory reply to any question involved in the matter of a soldier's pay, and I hope that there is no truth in the rumour which was current a few weeks ago that there was some intention of superseding Sir John Carter and putting his work into the hands of a civilian.
I notice that my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the War Office shakes his head, and I hope very much that distinguished servant will not be removed from his office. I complain about a great many things, but General Sir John Carter, in my experience, has proved not only one of the most obliging, but also one of the most efficient officials at the War Office with whom I have ever had anything to do, and I am glad to know that there is no prospect of him being removed from his position. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to explain how really the state of account is finally arrived at? I know the difficulty of paying soldiers in the field, and the soldiers themselves know the difficulty of ascertaining how much is due to them in comparison with what they get. The fact of the matter is that no soldier is ever paid his weekly wage as any artisan is ; a certain proportion of his pay, which may or may not be on the credit or debit side of his account, is always retained, and when the man is killed and the balance of pay to his credit or otherwise is paid to his widow or dependants there is a great deal of dubiety as to how much is due or whether the credit side of the account represents what they are entitled to. I know the system of witness rolls in the field, of the sending of them to the paymaster, and of the drawing up of the statements of account, but my right hon. Friend would be doing a service if he would make some statement publicly as to what check is made upon the amount paid in the field and afterwards sent up by the witness roll to the paymaster in comparison with the amount to which the man is entitled. There is nothing affecting the men which is felt more acutely than this doubt as to whether they are getting their money or not. If the right hon. Gentleman can convince them that the system upon which they are paid and by which their pay is checked is infallible, or is as infallible ns it can be he will be doing a considerable service to the men in the field. The second point that I wanted to raise has been disposed of by an answer which I received to-day from the President of the Local Government Board. I had it down on my notes to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it was the case—and one was disposed to believe it might be the case from the amount of Press notice which has been given to it recently—that owing to the recent increases of pay the wives and men were being deprived of the civil liability grant to which they were entitled upon the old basis, but I am glad to know from the President of the Local Government Board that it is absolutely illegal and in variance entirely with the instructions of the War Office that any civil liability grant should be altered or varied on account of the general increase of pay. I hope my right hon. Friend will confirm that and remove all doubt. I am not saying that it cannot be varied or altered if the pay is increased for normal reasons. If a man is promoted to the rank of sergeant and is thereby in receipt of larger pay, of course the fact is taken into consideration by the Civil Liability Committee, and it may result in a reduction of the civil liability amounts. The point to be made clear, and many people want it made clear, although I am quite clear about it myself, is that none of these grants either from the Civil Liability Committee or the local war pensions committees can be either varied or altered as the result of the recent increase; in other words, that the increase of pay is over and above all other payments which have been made. The third point about which I want to ask a few questions is the method by which the silver badge is distributed to discharged men. I still fail to understand the basis upon which the silver badge is granted. Originally, it was' given practically to most men who had been discharged for any disability. Later, it was only given to men who were discharged when on medical examination they were considered to be no longer physically fit for any form of service. If that is the practice that obtains at the present moment, I should like to know how some people managed to get the silver badges that they are wearing. For instance, if I may say so without meaning anything at all, I know certain Members of this House of Commons who are wearing silver badges who have never been in the Army at all except in positions which are not military but administrative, and who have never been out of the country at all, whereas men who have been abroad and who have been discharged for disability, but whose disability apparently in the opinion of the medical board is not such to warrant them getting a discharge which says that they are absolutely physically unfit for any kind of service, are not entitled to the silver badge and cannot get it. Obviously, that creates a feeling among those men that is not helpful. They really want some average distinguishing mark to show that they have served and that their service has been recognised by the State. I have suggested before now—I do it again, although I have no hope that the War Office will accept the suggestion—that if the silver badge is not to be, restricted, then it is up to the War Office to furnish the men with some kind of mark which at any rate will indicate that they have fought. I do hope that suggestion will be considered. The fourth point that I want to raise concerns the decision of the War Office with regard to wounded and time-expired men. In all the concessions that have been made so far no attention, beyond the expression of a pious opinion, has been paid to the men who have been wounded and the time-expired men. I was present on Sunday afternoon when the Minister of National Service made a speech in London—presumably he was talking the mind of the Government—and he indicated the time when the Government hoped to replace every soldier at the front who had been twice wounded by fit men or men who had not served. The War Office and the Government from time to time from the Treasury Bench have expressed their hope that wounded men who have been returned to this country, but who have not been discharged, could be relieved from going back to the front. I need not elaborate this point, because many hon. Members have referred to it again and again, but I can assure my hon. Friends that if there is one class of men who evoke more sympathy from the general community than another, it is the class of soldier who cannot secure his discharge and who is returned to the front time and again after he has been wounded. For example, I know a friend of mine who has been wounded seven times and who, in spite of that fact, has been sent over for the eighth time to the front. Everybody realises that that is the type of man whom the country regards as having done everything the country expects of him, and that that man ought to be replaced by someone in this country who has never seen the other side of the Channel and who has no experience of the fighting at the front. I venture to suggest to my hon. Friends in charge of the Vote to-day that they ought to make up their minds on this subject, and ought to be able to give some definite pronouncement very soon. By very soon I mean within a few days; I do not mean that it is the kind of thing which can be put off by saying that it is being considered and that an early decision is expected. It is up to the War Office, because they have the facts in their records, to draw the line somewhere, and if they can do nothing more, might I suggest that they should make a beginning to-morrow by refusing to send back to the front men who have been wounded for, let us say, X times, and let them fix the number? As I have pointed out, men have been wounded eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, and one times. If the War Office would only make a beginning and say that all those who have been wounded six times shall not go back, and a fortnight later would say that all men who have been wounded five times shall not go back, then we should see that they really meant business. I do not like to leave it just with the promise that the War Office are trying their best. I should like the War Office to say something definite, so that the public may know that the men who have been wounded over and over again at the front, and who have come back here and convalesced at our hospitals, should not have the feeling at the back of their minds that they have to go back again. That ought to be settled. Probably my hon. Friend feels as I do, and the only thing which prevents him coming to a decision is the officialdom he has to break through. I have suggested to him a method by which he might make a beginning by issuing an Order under which men with more than a certain number of wounds should not go back. That would leave it possible for men—although I should regret it—who have been wounded once or twice to be sent back in the meantime, but it would give an indication to the public that the War Office really meant business on this question of the wounded men. I should like to be quite clear, because I have only got the promise in a letter to myself personally, and I should like my hon. Friend to say it in his speech, so that it can go on the Notes of this House, with regard to the time-expired man. I under- stand that a time-expired man who has been discharged on the ground that he is time-expired is frequently a man who has also been wounded, and that if he is discharged on the ground of being time-expired that allows the authorities to recall him to the Colours, but that now a concession is offered that a time-expired man, discharged because he is time-expired, shall not be recalled to the Colours if he has been wounded. That does not cover the whole case of the time-expired men, but if my hon. Friend can say quite definitely in this Committee that from now onwards the lime-expired man who has also been wounded is in the same-position as the silver-badged man who has been wounded, who has served overseas, and who, therefore, is entitled to claim his final discharge, he will be indicating another useful concession. I also want to ask the Under-Secretary a question with regard to the distribution of the 1914 Star. I am not going to put him into any difficulty in the matter with regard to dates. I quite realise that the War Office had to draw the line at a certain date, and that a number of men on the other side of that date feel very keenly that they have missed, as we might call it, the appointed day. Whatever date we draw as to the distribution of any award of that kind there is bound always to be a certain number of men disappointed who would like the date to extend another day or week in order to cover their cases. The point I want to put is that while it is true, so far as I can ascertain, that the men serving in the forces now are able to get the ribbon of the 1914 Star, very few of the men who have served and have been discharged can get the same ribbon from the Record Office of the unit to which they belong. As I pointed out when discussing the question of the silver badge, it is quite possible that a large number of men who were not entitled to the silver badge are entitled to the ribbon, and if they had the ribbon that would protect them in the same way as the silver badge protects the other men. I want my hon. Friend, if he will, to get in touch with the various Record Offices in the country, or, if that is not the process, to examine his own office and to find out why, after all the applications that have been made to the Record Offices of the various units, the ribbon is not being distributed to these men. No men ever deserved the ribbon or medal more than these men do, and if the War Office have made up their minds to distribute it, it is up to the War Office to distribute it with dispatch and not to keep the matter hanging up so long, and thereby disappoint men who are both entitled and proud to wear it. 4.0 P.M. I want next to raise the question of the travelling medical boards inside the Army. I do not want to go into much detail on this point, although one could easily do so if he wished. We had a Committee, which is popularly known as the Shortt Committee of the House of Commons, which went into the subject of the examination by medical boards in this country. At the time that inquiry was made a great many of us felt that the reference to that Committee might very well have been extended to the travelling medical boards inside the Army, and that a great number of men actually in the Army received no better treatment from the medical boards in the Army than did many men from the medical boards in going into the Army. I should like to read to ray lion. Friend a very short extract from a letter which emphasises what I mean in my criticism of the travelling medical boards. It is an extract from a letter which I quite generously admit straight, away that my hon. Friend has promised to investigate himself personally. I am only using this as an example of the type of thing to which I refer. To begin with, he enlisted in September, 1915, in the Royal Garrison Artillery. He got his training and was sent out to France, and in May, 1916, was invalided home, suffering from rheumatism. From then to April, 1917, he was in England, and in the middle of April he was sent to Italy, was unfit there, in hospital again on the 9th May, and ever since. In September he was marked unfit in Italy, and was told he was going home to be discharged. However, when he arrived at Rouen he was detained, and was sent before a board, and marked fit for active service. Following on the top of that, another board marked him permanently unfit. He was sent up the line to a Labour company, where he was unable to do the work, was sent back to hospital, and then to this convalescent home. Since a year past in May he has done practically nothing, but suffered all the time, out of hospital into convalescent, and doing a little in the Post Office, where he was before he enlisted. I do not want to push this too hard, but it is obvious, as the result of the decisions of the inquiry into the medical boards in this country, that there are to-day in the Army a large number of men who are very unfit, and it is a hindrance to the efficiency of the Army to keep them there. They are wasting the time not only of their comrades in the ranks but of the officers, of the medical attendants of all kinds, from the doctors down to the nurses, of the transport officers, in fact of everyone, and as a plain business proposition, apart altogether from the humanity of the proceeding, it is worth the Army authorities while to comb out that type of man. I could give many more letters if it were necessary, but I suggest that it is worth while looking into the question of the efficiency of the travelling medical boards. The medical boards in this country were acting according to instructions furnished from the War Office. I hope there is no similar kind of instruction given to the travelling medical boards in the Army because, if it is so, the War Office is doing itself an injustice and the men concerned a very great injury. The next point I want to raise is the question of release from the Colours. I should like the Under-Secretary to tell us what exactly is the form now that the National Service Department has been set up. Previously in the War Office there was a. Release from the Colours Department. Now there are two Departments. There is one at the War Office, and there is one at the National Service. Will my hon. Friend explain clearly what is the function of the two Departments, and when one is expected to apply to the War Office Release from the Colours Department and when one is expected to apply to the Release from the Colours under National Service. Will he also say whether it is worth while at all sending to him the kind of cases which are submitted to one as a Member of this House, or whether it is better to leave applications for release from the Colours, in the case of the War Office, on the ground of ill-health, domestic circumstances, and so forth, to the man himself or his wife, and in the other case, of National Service, to the employer, who may be seeking the services of the soldier? Another point I want to touch on is the question of transfers from unit to unit. Owing to the exigencies of military warfare now, a great number of men who originally enlisted under special enlist- ment are being transferred to other units. Can my hon. Friend say that all men who enlisted on a special enlistment, that is to say, who applied in response to deliberate invitation on the part of the War Office on certain terms, cannot be transferred from the unit into which they enlisted to any other unit with a reduction of pay? I understand the practice of the War Office is this. Say a man enlisted in one of the Veterinary Corps at a special rate of pay, he may now be sent to an Infantry unit and his pay may be reduced. If you make inquiry about a case of that kind you find the War Office reply is that they are able to reduce the pay if the man is not efficient at the trade for which he enlisted. It is rather one against the War Office if they enlist a man who is not efficient at the trade and take so long to discover that he could not do the work for which they enlisted him and were paying him. I want to be quite clear that the War Office is not taking advantage of a man who has made that special kind of enlistment on account of military exigencies. I had far rather the War Office were perfectly honest and said, "We have to do this because it is necessary," than try to excuse themselves on the ground that the man whom they themselves accepted as efficient for the trade has become inefficient, and therefore is only entitled to Infantry pay. The same kind of thing arises with classes of men at the front. A great many men who voluntarily joined the Motor Transport at the beginning of the War are being compulsorily transferred to Infantry units now, and men who were conscripted later on are being left in the Motor Transport. When I raised a case of two of that kind with the War Office, they explained that it was a question of age, and they wanted the fitter men, whether they enlisted voluntarily or were conscripted, for the Infantry units. Whatever pay the Motor Transport man was getting, it was the War Office who advertised for them at 6s. a day, and those men went before they were taken, and now they find they are being put into the Infantry, and the fellows who were conscripted are being kept in the Motor Transport. It is not the kind of thing to make a cheerful fighter. Another point I want to raise was raised the other day on what is known as the Monteagle-Browne case. Why is it that the War Office have no general court of inquiry before which a man with a grievance can present his case? I have had cases from time to time of men who, for some reason or other, on which I cannot form a very precise judgment, have been sent home from the front, and have either been asked to resign or have themselves resigned in order to prevent themselves being dismissed. The complaint of these men—I think it is true, and I think it is admitted—is that they cannot raise their case in any particular way with the War Office. The Undersecretary has told us it is not possible in war time. Most things seem possible in war time, in spite of the fact that we are always saying nothing is possible. I wonder whether it is not possible that a man in that position could be entitled to put his side of the case before a court of inquiry, because any number of these men are turned down—and turning down to a man in that position means a very considerable disgrace—without ever being able to put their side of the case at all. I do not think that is just, reasonable, or fair, and my hon. Friend should try to constitute some general court of inquiry to which cases of that kind could be put from time to time, and so avoid a rankling sense of injustice that is left in the minds of very many of these men. I have had a very great number of complaints recently from Scotland—I do not know whether it obtains in England or not—with regard to the day on which the separation allowance money is paid. Just now the money is paid on Monday. As the right hon. Gentleman would know, if he were a Scotsman, the average Scottish wife does her marketing and spends her money on a Saturday. If my hon. Friend were in touch with Scottish newspapers he would find that there is an increasing and very strong demand that the separation allowance should be paid on Friday, rather than on the Monday. That is the kind of thing which could easily be adjusted. It is a matter of convenience for the greater part of the population, and if the Financial Secretary could see his way, after discussing it with the Paymaster-in-Chief, to pay the allowances in Scotland on the Friday instead of the Monday, he would be conferring a very decided boon upon the working population in Scotland. The last question I want to ask is: Who fixed the price for junior officers uniforms? Since they were fixed I have had, even from my own personal friends, a considerable amount of complaint. For instance, the price fixed for the Service jacket of an officer is £6 16s. 2d. After all, the men with one and two stars are not very well off. In many cases they have been promoted from the ranks in the New Army, and, while it is possible for a man of higher rank to pay that amount of money, it is rather taking it out of the younger officer to compel him to pay that price. I could get a couple of suits of clothes for £6 16s. 2d. in London, and very good clothes, too. If it were not for free advertisement of my tailor I would give the name and address now. If that is true, it is not fair to charge £6 16s. 2d. for a Service coat to a junior officer. I suggest to the Financial Secretary, although my speech is not concerned with any of the larger problems of War Office administration, that it raises just the kind of case that all of us have heard from our serving friends, whether they are privates or officers. Both my hon. Friends know enough about the War Office to know that, if you want the Army to be contented and if you do not want to make them feel disgruntled, it is just these little things that affect personal comfort, and affect the convenience of their relatives or affect the question of justice between one payment and another, which have an effect upon a considerable number of men. I submit to both my hon. Friends that if they would give me, in answer to the questions that I have put this afternoon, some hope that these matters will be attended to, and if possible remedied, they will be conferring not only a benefit upon the men who are affected, and those of us who are working for these reforms, but they will be doing a real service to themselves, because they will be convincing the men over whose interests they preside that they take a deep and personal interest in their concerns.I wish to ask the Home Secretary for some further information in regard to the regulated brothels in France and the policy which is being adopted towards them by the military authorities out there. The Committee knows that in France they have a system of licensed regulated brothels, and a large number of these are in towns largely occupied by British troops. The hon. Member has been asked questions about this in the House, and he has replied that these places are under the jurisdiction of the French civil authorities, and that he has no power over the French civil authorities and cannot take any steps in the matter. As a matter of fact, these replies do not touch the point at issue. Of course, he has no jurisdiction over the French civil authorities, but he has jurisdiction over the British soldier. The question I wish to raise is this—Why is it that, by the policy of the military out there, these places are deliberately being left within bounds for British troops? The Americans, in the towns where they have control, put these places out of bounds. The British military authorities out there put other places out of bounds. They put estaminets out of bounds by merely putting a message upon the door, or putting a military policeman on guard. If they can do that, why do they refuse to put these regulated brothels out of bounds for British troops?
I understand that the hon. Gentleman is acting in accordance with the representations of his military advisers. That is a policy which the military have always believed in even when the Contagious Diseases Acts were repealed. I believe that the military view of this question is absolutely wrong, and that if the hon. Gentleman will go into it, he will find that the proportion of venereal diseases in the British Army just before the War was smaller than it was in the days of the Contagious Diseases Acts. If he will go into the question in regard to the whole civil population I think he will find that it is now fairly conclusively established that quite apart from the moral question this system in the long run leads to an actual increase in the amount of venereal disease. It does so for a variety of reasons. One reason is that the women in these places are not as a matter of fact safe. They are inspected, but they get infected and in turn they infect dozens of men before they are inspected again. Not only that, but if you take Paris or anywhere else, for every woman regulated and inspected in one of these places there are at least half a dozen unregulated and un inspected women carrying on this trade outside. The reason is that although men may acquire these habits inside these licensed places, which are very unattractive and squalid and unappetising, they prefer to continue those habits outside, with the result that a new clandestine trade springs up. The first effect is that under this licence system there are, in spite of the regulations, thousands of unregulated prostitutes upon the streets. It leads to this condition of things—here is a system or a habit which carries with it certain dangers and penalties. The State, the Government, tries to reduce the dangers and tries to reduce them by a system which practically invites the whole of the male population as they go out to become addicted to this habit, what is the consequence? On the one hand you have all these women still about the streets, and on the other hand you have an enormous increase of the proportion of people who are addicted to these habits, and these two conditions together mean that in the long run the amount of venereal disease is greater than if the system had not been put into operation. This is not simply a question to be decided by the military authorities According to their views of the statistics of venereal disease. It is a moral question. It is a question which touches us very deeply, and which goes very deeply to the spiritual sense of the British people. There is no reason whatever why the hon. Gentleman should accept the views of his military advisers on a question of this sort. It may be right that they should dictate to us as to their views on strategy, but there is no reason whatever why they should dictate to us their views on morals. I do not feel that I am called upon to enter into any argument as to the merits or defects of this system of regulated prostitution. The fact is that the whole country and this House, when it repealed the Contagious Diseases Acts, deliberately decided against such a system, and if the House wishes to reintroduce the system it should do so in the light of the public eye; it should do it openly, and in the public view, by reintroducing the Contagious Diseases Acts. Until it is prepared to do that, I think it ought not to be that, so far as tens of thousands of young British soldiers in France are concerned, that the system should be clandestinely permitted to them by the policy of the military authorities. I hope the hon. Gentleman will give me a different answer this afternoon. As he knows, the subject has been privately pressed upon the War Office for about eighteen months, and it was only because other means have failed that the subject was finally brought before the public. I can assure him that since the answers that he has given in this House have appeared they have caused profound misgivings in thousands of decent homes from which sons have gone abroad, and I can assure him that if the War Office insists upon its present attitude there will be a widespread public agitation on this question which nobody wants on such a subject as this. I hope, therefore, that he will this afternoon give some satisfactory assurances on the subject.May I bring the Committee back to some of the questions raised by the hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge), and draw the attention of the representative of the War Office to the importance of the subjects with which he dealt? The first question which he raised was in regard to soldiers' pay books. I know that it is a very difficult and complicated question, but I should like to add a few words to what was said by the hon. Member for Edinburgh as to the individuals composing the Pay Department of the Army who deal with this question. I have not myself had anything to do with General Carter, but I have been in contact with a great many of the Pay Department officers, and I can speak very highly as to the great amount of personal care and attention that they give to this matter, and how constantly they go to personal pains in their endeavour to meet any difficulties that occur in regard to pay. What I would like to impress upon the right hon. Gentleman is whether it would not be possible to get some sort of balance of the soldiers' pay books made at shorter intervals. I have found, and I think he will probably know that it occurs very constantly, that when a man has come home to see his wife or other relatives he has been under the impression that he has a considerable amount of money due to him. He has gone out, and something has occurred, and when inquiries are made from the Pay Office it is found that instead of money being due to him there are debits owing by him. The real difficulty in regard to that is that old balances are carried forward such a very long time. I know the difficulties of the Army arrangements, but I think it would be well if you could strike a balance oftener. This might occasionally involve the Department losing a little money on old claims by striking a balance, say, at the end of three, four or six months, but it would have the advantage of obtaining a fresh start, and having a clear balance which would be understood, not only by the authorities, but by the soldiers themselves. While this would involve occasionally writing off small debits, I think, from the point of view of the whole expense of the country, it would not be much, because the carrying forward of these small debits causes a considerable amount of clerical work and trouble which is not worth the actual amount ultimately recovered. I put the suggestion forward for what it is worth.
There is another matter which has been referred to, and that is the sending out of men who have been many times wounded. I know the difficulties of the matter, but I would add my words to what the hon. Member for Edinburgh has said as to the very great advantage it would be to the Army and the country if there could be some general statement such as that he suggested, namely, that a man who has been wounded a certain number of times should not be sent out again to the front. It is not entirely a question for the hon. Member now sitting on that bench. It is also a question for the Ministry of National Service. It is rather a misfortune that in this House now no one is ever seen on that bench unless he is immediately concerned with the business of the moment. It would be a good thing if the Ministry of National Service were represented on that bench at present, so that that Department might hear what is said with regard to a matter in which it is very intimately concerned. Many of the difficulties in which it is at present engaged are due to the fact that not quite sufficient consideration has been given to those men who have been wounded, or who have served for a very long time during this War, and the claim which is at present made by the Ministry of National Service and the War Office to obtain men who up to the present have been exempt from military service for various reasons would be greatly strengthened if it were clearly understood that those men who have served for a long period and those who have been wounded seriously in the service of their country, or those who have been wounded again and again, were going to be exempt from further actual service at the front. If that were definitely understood, then the claim which is made for the services of the young men who up to the present have avoided service in consequence of being engaged in certain industries would be very much strengthened. The difficulties which occur at present. and which everyone appreciates, and which are certainly serious, and at the same time should be got over in the interests of general fairness to all classes of the population, would be very much diminished if the War Office would make a definite statement as to what their wishes and intentions are with regard to asking men to continue their service beyond a certain period, or to resume service after a certain number of wounds, if they succeed in obtaining the services of those men whom they are asking for at present. That is a matter with which the hon. Gentleman opposite is not solely concerned, but I press it on his consideration, not only from the point of view of its importance in itself, but also because of its bearing on the question of obtaining further recruits. Another matter to which I wish to refer is the Civil Liabilities Commission. I understood from the attitude of the right hon. Gentleman that he was responsible for that Commission.The Local Government Board.
Then I will not deal with the matter. I thought that the right hon. Gentleman was the Minister responsible.
I take a great interest in it.
I hope that I may have the support of the right hon. Gentleman when I deal with the Local Government Board in reference to that subject. I would also press upon my right hon. Friend the claim which is put forward with regard to the men who were enlisted under special conditions of pay. I feel fairly confident that he will have a perfectly straightforward answer to that question, but I do hope that it will be a thoroughly straightforward one, and I trust that the War Office will see the very great importance not only of not doing anything which is not fair, but of avoiding anything which may appear to be unfair. There is no doubt very great difficulty with regard to men being enlisted for special corps at a high rate of pay, and men afterwards being enlisted compulsorily for similar work at a lower rate of pay. But whatever those difficulties may be, the one important thing with regard to the men and the pay is this, that when you have made a definite bargain with men at a certain rate of pay that bargain should be carried out, and, if there is any difficulty or difference, that you, being as you are in a position of absolute authority, should give the benefit of the doubt to these men. I have heard stories, and one reads in the Press, of men who have been enlisted in these special corps being reduced, and then put into the Infantry or something of that kind at a lower rate of pay. I do not suppose for a moment that the War Office do anything of the kind, but I would impress on them very strongly the necessity not only of not doing anything of the kind, but of making it perfectly clear to everybody, the men themselves and the public generally, that anything of the kind is entirely avoided, and that a bargain once made with men is carried out however inconvenient that bargain may be, and whatever difficulties may arise in adjusting the general pay of the Army and the pay of these men.
Reference has been made recently to certain grievances of certain officers. I have no wish to go into that particular question, and no knowledge of the circumstances, but I say one thing quite distinctly. We have had during the last year a considerable amount of difficulty with regard to the position of officers in the Army, and of men in the Army of every rank and class, and I do suggest-to this Committee, to the Government and to the. public, that you will never have a really successful government of the Army of this country until you go back to the old arrangement which existed for so many years past, which was only abolished a short time ago, of having a Commander-in-Chief of the British Army who shall be responsible for the general management and discipline of the Army. You adopted, quite recently in the history of this country, the system of governing the Army by an Army Council As far as my experience of armies goes, councils are not a very good system of government. All councils have the great defect that they are impersonal. No man knows who they are. When a decision is taken no one is certain which particular member of the council is really responsible for it. That is not a good system of management of an Army, and I would suggest that, the real solution for all the difficulties which arise as to whether a man has been fairly treated, and in many other questions of the greatest importance, will be found by giving back to the Army what it has always had in the past, and what I am certain is the proper thing for the government of an Army, that is a. Commander-in-Chief of the British Army, not a Commander-in-Chief in a particular centre or a particular place, but a soldier of great and distinguished position having the confidence of the country and the Government, who shall be the Commander-in-Chief of the English Army at home and abroad, on the fighting front, in India and over the whole world, for the whole of the Army. I feel certain that that will be a solution not only of small difficulties, but of large ones which: may arise in the future.I desire for a few moments to bring to the notice of my right hon. Friend a point which, I think, is worthy of serious attention. I quite realise that it is a difficult and delicate task for a Member of this House to criticise those who have been responsible during the three last strenuous, trying years for running the vast machine of the Army. I served some time at the beginning of the War myself, and I have the greatest admiration for the devotion and self-sacrifice they have shown. Here and there, of course, one does come across some Jack-in-office; here and there one sees sometimes intensive conservatism in. high places. But, speaking generally, the country ought to be very grateful to the officers who have been responsible for the fighting machine, for the sympathy, intelligence and understanding which they have shown, and if I do criticise, it is merely for the purpose of appealing for still more sympathy and still more understanding. We have got in our Army the finest fighting machine that this or any other Empire ever possessed, but I hope that we shall always remember that, though we have got a great fighting machine, the individuals composing it are the last thing in the world but machines. The youth of this nation have submitted gladly, willingly, to the self-sacrifice, military hardships and discipline of the Army, but, at the same time, they remain essentially civilians at heart, and in maintaining the morale and discipline of your troops you cannot do better than realise that they are human beings, and do the utmost in your power to appeal to their intelligence and understanding.
With that little preface to my right hon. Friend, I desire to refer to the conditions of what are called Command Depots. These are places where convalescent soldiers are gathered together in large numbers for the purpose of being hardened up in order to be sent back to the front. I am given to understand, and my information, I believe, is reliable, that these places arc extremely unpopular. They are, in fact, centres of discontent. It is said that there is little attempt made to interest, amuse or instruct the men. The chief means of making these men fit for the field is to take them for interminable route marches. Obviously, the atmosphere is a little bit difficult in these places, because the men ought to know that the only object of their being there is to fit them once more for being sent out. It is also obvious that the proper policy of the people who are responsible for running these places is to remove, as far as possible, the impression on the men's minds that they are being treated as machines. But, unfortunately, that policy is not pursued, and nothing is done either to instruct or to amuse the men, or to assist them to be either better citizens or better soldiers. Why should not these depots be treated as places where men can be made better soldiers? Why should there not be classes held in all the many activities which go to make up a soldier's life? Why should there not be classes in machine gunning, howitzer firing, physical drill, bayonet exercise, and map reading? The Army needs an enormous staff of non-commissioned officers as instructors for homo use. Why should not these places be utilised as schools for training non-commissioned officers for this purpose? It would be well to induce these men to take an interest in their work, and it would be of enormous benefit and help in running these places. Let one part of the day he devoted to making a man a better soldier; let the other part be devoted to making him a better citizen. You might have musical and debating societies; the aid of the Board of Education might be invoked: lectures and technical instruction might be provided, not so much to fit these men to compete in various trades, but more or less to amuse them. I am informed that the head of these Command Depots at the War Office is a most estimable and popular officer who served in the Indian Army. But you want younger men for this