House Of Commons
Wednesday, 13th March, 1918.
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. Speaker in the Chair.
Board Of Agriculture And Fisheries
Copy presented of Agricultural Statistics, 1917, Vol. LII, Part I., Acreage and Live Stock Returns of England and Wales, with Summaries for the United Kingdom [by Command); to lie upon the Table.
Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1887 (Eviction Notices)
Copy presented of Return showing (I.) the number of Eviction Notices filed, and (II.) the number of Evictions in Ireland during the year 1917 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
University Of St Andrews
Copy presented of Annual Statistical Report by the University Court of the University of St. Andrews for 1915–16 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Copy presented of Abstract of Accounts of the University of St. Andrews for the year 1915–16 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
National Insurance Acts, 1911 To 1915 (Accounts)
Copy presented of Accounts of the National Health Insurance Fund (England), the Welsh National Health Insurance Fund, the Scottish National Health Insurance Fund, and the Irish National Health Insurance Fund, established pursuant to Sections 54 (1), 82 (2), 80 (2), and 81 (2), respectively, of the National Insurance Act, 1911, showing the Receipts and Payments during the year 1915, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Army
Copy presented of Amendments to Rules for Military Detention Barracks and Military Prisons [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers To Questions
War
Mercantile Marine
New Tonnage
3.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the urgent importance of increasing the output of new vessels by the shipbuilding yards, he will give favourable consideration to publishing every week particulars of all cargo vessels launched during the past week, with a correct statement in each case of the total number of days since their keels were laid, also particulars of all cargo vessels completed for service, with a correct statement in each case of the number of days since their keels were laid, the total dead-weight carrying capacity of each such vessel, and the name of the shipbuilder and the yard where each vessel was built, in order to encourage the spirit of friendly competition of both the employers and shipyard workmen, not only between yard and yard and between district and district, but also between the Allied countries, especially between Great Britain and Ireland, the United States, and Japan?
My right hon. Friend proposes to deal with the matters raised in this question in the Debate of next week on Merchant Tonnage.
5.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if his attention has been drawn to a statement at the meetings of the Chamber of Shipping that the whole output of merchant shipbuilding since the commencement of the War has not been enough to replace the loss by marine causes alone leaving the losses by enemy action yet to be made up; and whether he can state what steps the Admiralty will take in regard to all engaged in shipbuilding showing them the urgency of new construction and the national peril of delay?
My hon. Friend's question refers to the report of a speech by Sir John Ellerman at the annual meeting of the Chamber of Shipping on the 6th March, in the course of which Sir John Ellerman is reported to have made the statement embodied in my hon. Friend's question, namely, that he believed that he was right in saying that the whole output of this country since the commencement of the War has not been enough to replace the losses by marine causes alone, leaving the losses from enemy action yet to be made up. That statement is very far from being correct, and I can hardly believe that Sir John Ellerman has been accurately understood. As a matter of fact, new merchant construction during the War is several times the total of marine losses.
As regards the latter part of the question, the Debates of yesterday and of last week have, I feel confident, materially assisted in bringing home to all concerned the urgency of new construction and the national peril of delay. As far as we are concerned, we shall certainly take every step to keep the matter in the most prominent way possible before all those to whom we look to give us new tonnage with the utmost possible expedition.Naval And Military Pensions And Grants
7.
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether arrangements have yet been completed under which local war pensions committees can be authorised to make cash advances to the dependants of mercantile ratings serving in His Majesty's ships in the same manner as is already done for the dependants of naval ratings?
I explained to my hon. and gallant Friend last week the steps we have already token to meet the case of dependants of men of the mercantile marine engaged in our service. The outstanding question is that which he now puts to me. I explained to him that on representation to the Treasury upon this point, that Department thought that the Ministry of Pensions should be consulted, inasmuch as the advances which would be made would come from the funds at the disposal of that Ministry, through its local pensions committee. I have been in communication with my right hon. Friend the Pensions Minister, and hope to get a decision immediately, when I will communicate with my hon. and gallant Friend.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give any idea as to when a decision is likely to be arrived at?
No; it is not in my hands, but directly it is, I shall communicate with my hon. Friend and the hon. and gallant Member for whom he has asked the question on the Paper.
18.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he can state when at is proposed to increase separation allowances?
I am not aware that any such intention has been formed.
35.
asked the Pensions Minister whether his attention has been called to a resolution passed at a meeting of the guardians of the Wolstanton and Burslem Union, complaining that widows and orphans of soldiers and sailors are granted pensions which are much below the amounts paid as allotment and separation allowances, and requesting that they be paid at least the same amount after the death of the bread-winner as before, together with sickness and other grants that were payable previously, and also asking that the whole question of payments to soldiers' dependants and widows and orphans of soldiers should be reconsidered; and whether he will indicate his intentions respecting the same?
I am aware that many boards of guardians have submitted resolutions in the sense indicated in the question. The rates of pensions to the widows and orphans of sailors and soldiers have been engaging my earnest attention for some time, and I regret that a decision in the matter is being delayed by the consideration of the wider problem with which it is connected.
Which is the wider problem?
I suppose my hon. Friend is as good at answering conundrums as I am.
May we assume that my right hon. Friend has been telling the House something that he does not understand?
No, not necessarily. The question, as was indicated last week, is under the consideration of the Treasury, and I am haying a conference with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on Friday morning which I hope will be conclusive.
48.
asked the Prime Minister whether he can state before the Third Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill the proposed increases in pensions to widows and children, and the date of issue of the new Warrant; and whether any opportunity other than on the Third Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill will be given to discuss the same?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative, but, as soon as a decision is taken, I shall, if there is a general desire for it, give an opportunity for its discussion. I am as anxious as the hon. Member that no unnecessary delay shall occur, but I would remind him that the proposals not only involve expenditure of a large amount, but raise social and economic considerations of the greatest complexity. It is necessary, therefore, that they should be subjected to the most careful examination, and this is being done as rapidly as possible.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that on every occasion a decision has been come to without any discussion in this House, and is he also aware that at the present moment the widow and dependants of a soldier are now receiving less than the separation allowance, and, therefore, before the decision is come to will the right hon. Gentleman definitely give us an opportunity of discussing the matter?
I do not think that would be a proper course, and I think it would be a very unusual course. I should like to say also to my hon. Friend and to the House that everyone has the greatest sympathy with the people affected, but it is the duty of the House to give some support to the Treasury when they make every effort to see that the taxpayers' interests are protected.
Are we to understand that an opportunity will be given to discuss the new Warrant before it is issued?
No; I did not promise to give an opportunity for discussion before it is issued, but I will consider that, though I can give no promise of an opportunity for discussion before the Government have made up their minds.
Has the alternative of a war bonus to cover the increased cost of food been considered?
It is just that kind of consideration which is causing the delay in the Treasury in coming to a decision, and I may say I am not so sanguine as my right hon. Friend (Mr. Hodge) that our meeting on Friday will be conclusive.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this Warrant is the fourth Warrant? Every one has been changed because of opinion in this House, and would it not be better to allow the House to discuss it before the Treasury fix the amount?
I do not think that is historically accurate. The changes have been made to a large extent because of the changed conditions.
Nothing of the sort!
2.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in the case of married ordinary seamen or privates of the Royal Marines whose wives are receiving less separation allowances than those granted to wives of soldiers, the special grants committees are instructed to bring the amounts issued, without application from the women concerned, up to the amount issuable to wives of privates in the Army; and, if so, whether it would save unnecessary work on the part of these committees if the Admiralty separation branch issued allowances on this scale?
It is not the fact that the local pensions committee are instructed to bring Navy separation allowances up to the Army level without application. The Regulations under which the local committees work prescribe that in special cases, where the wife or dependant of an ordinary seaman, able seaman, or stoker (second class), or relative rank is receiving by way of separation allowance and allotment a sum less than that payable to the wife or dependant of a private soldier, a supplementary separation allowance may be granted not exceeding the difference. I am communicating with the Pensions Minister respecting certain aspects of this matter.
26.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether, in the case of a soldier's wife dying and leaving helpless young children, any allowance is made, or can be made, to a person willing to act as guardian until the father comes back home?
Where a soldier's wife has died, and a guardian enters the home with the soldier's approval and takes charge of his children, local war pensions committees have power under the Regulations of the special grants committee to grant an allowance if the separation allowance which then becomes payable at the higher rate appropriate to motherless children is less than the total amount previously paid to the wife.
Ex-Czar Of Russia
8.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the publication in Paris on 3rd March of a letter from the ex-Czar of Russia to the President of the French Republic; whether the British Government or the British Ambassador in Paris were consulted before its publication; and whether he has any further information to give on this subject?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative; to the last two parts in the negative.
Caucasus (British Military Mission)
9.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Military Mission sent by the Allies with the object of getting into the Caucasus by Baku consisted of British officers; and what is the most recent news of this mission?
Nothing can usefully be said at present on this occasion.
Siberia
Arming German Prisoners
10.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has reliable information as to the arming of German or other enemy prisoners in Siberia; and whether a Prussian general has proceeded to Siberia for this purpose?
Numerous reports have been received regarding the arming of enemy prisoners in Siberia, and, although the numbers concerned, points of concentration, etc., are doubtful, it is probable that considerable bodies of German and Austrian prisoners are now armed. A report to the effect that a German general is proceding to Irkutsk lacks confirmation.
Exports
Tea
11.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can state what is the total amount of tea exported from the United Kingdom to Sweden in 1913; and what was the combined total exported in 1915, and the first seven months of 1916?
The figures are as follows:
For the year 1913 | 245,660 lbs. |
For the nineteen months from 1st January, 1915, till 31st July, 1916 | 7,509,853 lbs. |
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what Minister will be responsible for the exportation of tea?
Cocoa
12.
asked the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can state what was the total amount of cocoa exported to Sweden in 1913 and 1915, respectively?
The exports of raw cocoa and cocoa preparations from the United Kingdom to Sweden were as follows:—
1913 | 149,737 lbs. |
1915 | 3,788,402 lbs. |
Since July, 1916, the exports from the United Kingdom to Sweden have practically ceased, and during the year 1917 they were nil.
Did any of these exports go through Russia?
I understand that a considerable portion went to Russia and Finland.
Central Africa (Labour Recruiting)
13.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is now, proposed to recruit labour for South Africa from Nyasaland or other parts of Central Africa north of 22 degrees south latitude?
The answer is in the negative.
Has this question been so deliberately considered that a conclusion has been arrived at, or can it still be called an open question?
I have already replied.
Maisons Tolerees (France)
14.
asked the Under secretary of State for War whether the War Office has given further consideration to the question of placing the maisons tolerées in France out of bounds for British soldiers, and has come to any decision?
I regret there is at present nothing further to add.
When is it likely that an answer will be given to the question?
I think perhaps in the course of next week.
Chaplains To Forces
15.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the feeling which exists among chaplains to the forces over the new rates of pay recently issued, by which chaplains with the rank of captain only receive the minimum pay of a second-lieutenant; and what step she proposes to take to remedy the grievance?
No, Sir. I am not aware of any ground for the existence of a feeling of grievance. A chaplain ranking as captain did not receive the pay of a captain of Infantry before the recent changes, and there is nothing in those changes to give him a claim to do so.
Women's Boots
19.
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether the Army Council has prohibited the sale of women's boots which measure more than 7 in. in height if of leather, or 8 in. in height if of other material; and, if so, whether the Order will be so far modified as to allow of the disposal of such boots when already manufactured and in stock prior to some date to be fixed, in order to prevent waste of goods and money; and whether he is aware that relaxation of the Order for June and July only will be of little use as such boots are chiefly worn in spring and winter?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, except in so far as it concerns boots essential for industrial or occupational purposes. In order effectively to ensure that manufacture stops it is necessary also that the sale of such boots retail shall be regulated.
It appears that high-leg boots for women are manufactured in qualities suitable for the various seasons. The Department has arranged to give retailers the opportunity of selling their existing stock during June and July, as the result of the representations that have been made to them that quantities of the goods in question are only suitable for summer wear, and were not, therefore, disposed of in the very heavy sales that took place immediately prior to the Order becoming operative on 1st February. It is not anticipated that after the end of July any appreciable quantities of these boots will be held in stock.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these, boots are particularly comforting in the winter, and that there will be left on the hands of numbers of perfectly innocent tradesmen large stocks, unless he can see his way to the relaxation of the Order in the direction indicated?
My information does not coincide with that of the hon. Gentleman, as I have pointed out in the answer I have given.
Food Supplies
Horseflesh
20.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether horseflesh is under authorisation on sale for British subjects and is supplied to Belgian refugee associations; whether proposals have been advanced to furnish similar supplies to German prisoners of war; whether the War Office offered no objection to the proposals; whether these proposals have been definitely rejected by General Dekfield, Director of Supplies, Prisoners of War; and whether he will take steps to see that German prisoners of war receive neither in quantity nor quality preferential treatment over our native population?
This question, which is not without difficulty, is being considered.
Has not the Prime Minister said that horseflesh was the normal consumption of the German people, and does not the hon. Gentleman think that, perhaps, the German prisoners would be glad to have it?
Pheasants
22.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the War Office have received a claim from Sir Claude de Crespigny, baronet, of Champion Lodge, Maldon, Essex, for reimbursement of loss by the destruction of pheasants two years ago on account of military occupation; whether any steps have been taken to assess this claim upon a fair basis between the State and the breeder; and if he can fix any date for the conclusion of the assessment and the payment of the amount which may be found due?
The claim of Sir Claude de Crespigny for compensation for loss of game through disturbance by military operations, has been submitted to the Defence of the Realm Losses Commission, with whom the decision rests.
Will the decision be taken shortly?
I am not responsible for the Commission in question, but I am sure that there will be no avoidable delay.
This matter has been before us for two years, and will the right hon. Gentleman represent the fact of the great delay which has already taken place?
I should think that the publicity which will be occasioned by the hon. Gentleman's question will bring it to the notice of the Commission.
Before compensating these people for disturbance of a number of pheasants, will the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration the tens of thousands of people whose businesses have been smashed, so that they may be looked after by the War Office?
It is not a question of the disturbance of pheasants, but rather the destruction of useful food.
This is not a matter for the War Office. It has been referred to a wholly impartial tribunal, and I am sure it will receive wholly impartial treatment.
Does not the War Losses Commission deal with losses of profit in trade, and is pheasant-rearing a trade yielding profit?
Beet Sugar
27.
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether the Board has endeavoured to obtain good pedigree beet seed from the United States of America, and if any steps have been taken to secure the assistance of Denmark or France in this connection?
Efforts are being made to secure a certain quantity of high-class beet seed required for the projected sugar beet enterprise in Notts from the United States and various countries in Europe. It is not yet certain whether delivery will be secured; mean time, however, a sufficient quantity of seed at present available in this country will be sown in order to secure stocks for the future.
28.
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he has considered that sugar syrup for making jam can easily be procured from beetroot without any elaborate factories or machinery; and whether anything has been done to encourage the growth of sugar beet for this purpose?
I am advised that it is doubtful whether a satisfactory syrup for jam making can be procured from beet by ordinary domestic processes, and, in fuller reply to this point and to the remainder of the question, I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer given to the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth on the 6th February last.
Is it not the fact that although this process is not an easy one, it has been proved by private individuals that a great deal of advantage can be obtaned by the ordinary individual who grows it by the use of it as sweets and other forms of food?
The question is a chemical one, and I am sorry to say I do not feel very competent to give an opinion on it, but apparently in the process there is a certain quantity of salt, which is said to be deleterious to consumption.
Is the right Gentleman not aware that the root itself can be used as fruit might be used, and would be a very valuable help to the people?
I think that is so.
Bedford Allotments (Factory Sites)
29.
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he is aware that eighty allotment holders, each having from 20 to 40 poles of land in the town of Bedford, are to have their allotments taken from them, and that the land is to be used as sites for factories; whether he is aware that this land is in a high state of cultivation after being worked and tilled by hand labour for twenty-five years, and that there is other land equally suitable for factory sites but entirely unsuitable for food production; and whether, in view of the food situation in the country, he will cause immediate inquiry to be made?
I am obliged to the hon. Member for drawing my attention to this matter, and I have given instructions that immediate inquiries are to be made and will inform the hon. Member of the result. The Board had received no previous intimation on the subject.
Farm Work
32.
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture if he is aware that many farmers are experiencing difficulty not only in completing the ploughing, but also in preparing the broken-up land for sowing; and, in view of the short time now available, will he take steps to ensure that all possible assistance shall be given with the greatest possible promptitude?
The reports received by the Department indicate that, owing to the favourable weather, all farm work is exceptionally well forward, but the hon. Member can rest assured that all possible assistance will be promptly given to those farmers who require help.
33.
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether the reapers and binders owned by the Government will be distributed about the country and hired to farmers who need them in order to harvest their grain crops; and, if so, what the terms for hiring will be?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Reapers and binders will be distributed to the county agricultural executive committees, who will arrange for their working by the Department's horses and tractors. The charge for hiring will cover the cost of service, and will be in accordance with the rates to be determined by agricultural executive committees with the Board's approval.
May I ask whether it is, therefore, unnecessary for farmers who have broken up land, and who have not got reapers and binders, to pay the present exorbitant rates for reapers and binders, feeling assured that they will be able to obtain reapers and binders from the agricultural committees?
It is rather dangerous for farmers to assume that for this reason, that if it is a harvest which requires to be promptly gathered in, those farmers would have to wait their turn in a certain rotation, and it would be to their advantage to own their own binders and reapers.
Home-Grown Food
45.
asked the Prime Minister whether any, and what, action has been taken by the Government to obviate the disadvantages of the present system of dual control by the Ministry of Food and the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries of production of home-grown food and to stimulate and encourage such production?
It is impossible for me to say more than that the whole subject, the difficulties of which I am sure my hon. Friend realises, is under the consideration of the Government.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when that consideration will be completed?
No, Sir; I said I could say nothing more than that we are considering it.
Ministry Of Food Notices
58.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that no less than sixty copies of the table of equivalent weights of meat issued by his Department are posted up within a distance of but a little more than half a mile along the Chelsea Embankment, and that in many cases two, or even four, copies of the notice are posted side by side; if he will say who is responsible for this waste of paper; and whether he will take steps to prevent a repetition of it?
The posting was done under the orders of the Chelsea Local Food Control Committee. In advertising by poster, frequent repetition of posters in close proximity is considered a more effective means of securing attention than a wide diffusion of single posters. The matter does not appear to require further action.
Fish
59.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether the Controller proposes to suspend, so far as circumstances allow, all fishing restrictions round the United Kingdom, to obtain the concurrence of the Admiralty for fishing in areas now closed, and to allow the return to port of as many vessels as can be spared, in order to increase the supply of fish and to reduce the cost of living in the present crisis?
The Food Controller is in constant communication with the Fishery Boards and the Admiralty with the object of increasing the supply of fish food by every possible method including those indicated by the hon. Member.
Potato Controller
60.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether the Mr. Clark, of 43, Bute Street, Cardiff, recently appointed secretary to the South Wales and South-West of England Potato Control Committee, is the same gentleman who was prosecuted on behalf of the Ministry of Food in December last and fined £200 and 50 guineas cost?
This appointment was made by the South Wales Potato Advisory Committee on their own initiative, and the Ministry of Food were not consulted in the matter. I am advised that the offence referred to was of a somewhat technical description, and that it is inexpedient in this instance to interfere with the discretion of the Advisory Committee.
May I ask my hon. Friend if that offence was not considered by the Food Controller to be so serious that he had to send a solicitor down from London to prosecute, and if he did not obtain a verdict, and that then the law-breaker is given an appointment?
I am not aware of that, but I will represent the information in the supplementary question to the Food Controller.
Territorial Force (Home Service Men)
21.
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether his Department can grant any concession in the way of service at home or otherwise to those members of the Territorial Force who desire such who mobilised in August, 1914, and who have been, during the whole currency of the War, engaged on active service, in view of the fact that these men had to leave their homes and businesses without convenient preparation, and that there are many men in khaki willing and desirous of serving on the various fronts who could take their place?
Endeavours are being made to allow such men a period of home service, but I regret that in the present situation as regards man-power the opportunities are limited.
War Office (Ex-Soldier Clerks)
23.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether, in view of the services rendered by the ex-soldier clerks employed in the War Office since 1901, he will favourably consider recognising these men as pensionable after fifteen years' continuous service?
This question is at present under consideration.
Government Departments (Office Accommodation)
34.
asked the First Commissioner of Works for what purpose Arm-field's Hotel, South Place, E.C., has been taken over by the Government; what is the sum estimated to be spent on alterations of the building; is he aware that within a few hundred yards of this building a large hotel building has been empty for many months; and why this building was not taken over in preference to a going hotel business?
The hotel in question was taken over for the Metropolitan Water Board, whose offices on the Embankment were, commandeered for the use of the Air Ministry. The estimated cost of alterations is £1,400. I am aware of the existence of an empty hotel, but the necessary alterations therein would have taken too long to effect, and would have involved the use of too much labour and material.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many hotels his Department has now commandeered?
I should like notice of that question.
Army Discharges (Tuberculosis)
36.
asked the Pensions Minister whether he can state how many men have been discharged from the Army on account of tuberculosis who had contracted this disease before they were passed for service by the Army medical boards; and whether he is prepared to forward this information to the Minister of National Service?
I regret that neither the records kept by the Chelsea Commissioners before the formation of the Ministry nor those kept at the present time enable the information desired to be given.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Ministry of National Service cancelled an Army Council Instruction dealing with the admission of these men into the Army, and will he say what effect that has upon his own Department?
I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for the information he has conveyed to me.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that these men are entitled, under the National Health Insurance Act, to tuberculosis treatment; and can he say how many soldiers discharged from camps are now receiving that treatment?
I think my hon. Friend must be conscious of the fact that he would have to put down a question if he desires information as to figures.
Military Service (Civil Liabilities) Department
40.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that the Military Service (Civil Liabilities) Department is sending a letter to officers who are in receipt of Grants from his Department stating that the increase in the officer's pay, together with the new allowance for children, will, in a large proportion of cases, render unnecessary the continuance of a Grant from the Department; and, if so, whether, in view of definite statements made in the House of Commons that this general increase in the rate of pay shall not affect the Grants which have been made, he will issue the necessary instruction that this and similar letters shall be withdrawn?
Grants, including grants for the maintenance of children, are made by the Military Service (Civil Liabilities) Department to officers who are unable by reason of their military service to meet certain financial obligations and are thereby exposed to serious hardship. The recent increase of pay and the new children's allowances for officers must obviously reduce or remove such hardship, and, as I informed the hon. Member for Nottingham South on the 14th February, the Department are bound in their periodic review of cases to take into consideration any alteration in an individual officer's financial circumstances. An undertaking has been given that Grants to non commissioned officers and men shall not be affected by the general increase of soldier's pay; but no statement to the effect suggested in the hon. and gallant Member's question has, so far as I am aware, been made in this House as regards the increase in officer's emoluments which are clearly on a different footing.
Are we to understand that what my right hon. Friend states is the official view that, in spite of the fact that non-commissioned officers' and men's Grants are not affected by recent increases, officers' Grants are affected, and, if so, why this difference?
My hon. Friend is a member of the Committee which decides these questions, and he must know that officer's pay stands on an entirely different footing from that of non-commissioned officers and men.
In spite of the fact that I am a member of the Committee, is my right hon. Friend not our taskmaster, and does he not decide whether we are enabled to do these things or not; and will he say what is the official position?
If my hon. Friend wants to know my position to the Committee, though I think he knows it already, he had better put down a question which will enable me to answer that question satisfactorily, and also as to my position as regards the Treasury.
Death Certificates (Sugar Cards)
44.
asked the President of the Local Government Board if he is aware that certificates of death have been refused by registrars until the sugar card of the deceased had been produced; and will he take steps to stop such a practice?
(by Private, Notice) asked the President of the Local Government Board what steps he is taking in respect of registrars who refuse to issue death certificates until the sugar card has been surrendered; and whether he desires to modify his previous statement that there was no foundation for the suggestion that this was taking place.
I much regret that in giving the reply to the hon. Member's question on the 6th instant, I had not been informed that, owing to an erroneous interpretation of the Instructions issued by the Registrar-General, instances had occurred in which death certificates had been withheld by registrars owing to failure to produce the deceased's sugar card. I have been in communication with the Registrar-General, and a further Instruction has now been issued by him to all registrars, drawing special attention to the fact that they are under no circumstances to refuse to issue a death certificate for this reason, though they are enjoined, after registration, to ask for the surrender of the card, and if it is not forthcoming to report the fact to the Ministry of Food.
I am grateful for this opportunity of making a public statement on the subject, and I hope the action taken will remove all cause of complaint in the future.Wales (Administration)
47.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the proposals for reconstruction after the War and the introduction of the Education and Ministry of Health Bills during the present Session, he will consider the desirability of all the administrative functions of the Board of Education, the Ministry of Health, the Board of Agriculture, the Local Government Board, and the Insurance Commissioners relating to Wales being grouped together in a Welsh office presided over by a Secretary for Wales who would be responsible for this Department to the House of Commons, and whose duties would correspond to those of the Secretary for Scotland; and whether he will consider the introduction of a Bill at an early date to give effect to these proposals?
I do not think that the hon. and gallant Member's proposal is practicable at the present time.
Irish Convention
50.
asked the Prime Minister when he expects to make a statement on the Irish Convention?
It is not possible for me at present to make any statement on this subject.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the amount of dissatisfaction in Ireland at the delay?
The hon. Member knows it is impossible for me to make a statement until the Convention has come to a decision. I do not control that.
Foreign Services
51.
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that there is a general desire for the discussion by this House of the projected reforms in the foreign services before any scheme is finally adopted; and whether he will give an assurance that a day will be given for the Foreign Office Vote between Easter and Whitsuntide?
It is proposed to take the Foreign Office Vote on the first Supply day after Easter in order that the topic referred to by the hon. Member may be discussed, unless it is the general desire of the House that some other Vote should be taken on that day.
Would the Prime Minister receive a deputation on this subject representing all parties in the House of Commons?
I cannot answer that without consulting the Prime Minister.
Ministry Of Health
52.
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government intend to proceed this Session with a Bill for the establishment of a Ministry of Health; and, if so, whether the Bill will be introduced at an early date?
I regret that I am not yet in a position to make any statement on this subject.
Has any progress been made with an agreed scheme as between the Government Departments concerned as to the Ministry of Health, to which the right hon. Gentleman referred in a reply some months ago?
Consultations have been taking place regularly. They are still going on, and those who are conducting them are sanguine enough to hope that there will be an agreement.
Is it not a very serious thing that all this infantile mortality should be going on, and cannot the Government give us any hope that a scheme of this kind will be brought forward at an early date?
Notice has been given of the introduction of a Bill especially dealing with that, but it does not affect in one way or other the larger question of the Ministry of Health.
Income Tax And Super-Tax
53.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much Income Tax and Super-Tax, respectively, due in January last, has not yet been collected; and how much of this has not been assessed or applied for?
The exact particulars asked for are not available, and could not be made so without specific inquiry in every tax surveyor's district throughout the United Kingdom. The Board of Inland Revenue, however, inform me that the progress of the assessment and collection during the current year is fully up to the average, and they anticipate that about 90 per cent, of the amount due on 1st January, 1918, will reach the Exchequer before the 31st instant.
Can my right hon. Friend give any estimate of the amount of money to be carried into the financial year on this account?
I cannot give it without notice.
Over-Age Army Officers (Civil Employment)
55.
asked the Minister of Reconstruction whether he is aware that numbers of Army officers are now being returned to civil life as being over age for active military duty; whether the Officers' Resettlement Committee, in conjunction with the Ministry of Labour, is prepared to deal with such cases; and, if so, whether steps will be taken to ensure that such officers who require employment shall be fully informed as to the steps they should take in order to avail themselves of this arrangement?
I have been asked to answer this question. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour is aware of the circumstances mentioned in the first part of the question. Arrangements are now being made on the lines proposed by the Officers' Resettlement Committee to assist ex-officers upon their return to civil life, and steps are being taken to bring these arrangements to the notice of the officers concerned.
Treasury Sick-Leave Regulations
56.
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that the Treasury Sick-Leave Regulations operate harshly in the case of Civil servants discharged from the Army on account of sickness or wounds; and whether, seeing that these Regulations were not designed to meet the present abnormal conditions, he will consider, in the case of discharged soldiers, the possibility of suspending the Regulation which reduces a man to half-pay at the end of six months?
(Joint Financial Secretary to the Treasury): The primary responsibility for meeting the case of Civil servants, as of other soldiers, who are discharged from the forces on account of sickness or wounds, rests with the Pensions Ministry. Civil servants are, however, given their ordinary sick-pay privileges, provided that the amount of Civil pay issued does not exceed, with Army or Navy pension, the full pay of their posts. These privileges, therefore, represent a benefit beyond what the ordinary private employé would obtain, and I am not at present satisfied that there is any ground for increasing them.
Is my hon. Friend conversant with the fact that these men are in a special position and that the existing Regulations refer to normal conditions, and would he not, therefore, be prepared to consider these abnormal conditions?
Shropshire Electric Power Company
62.
asked the Minister of Munitions if he will state on what terms public moneys to the extent of £120,000 have been advanced to the Shropshire, Worcestershire, and Staffordshire Electric Power Company, and also the terms of the further proposed loan of a sum not exceeding £80,000; if he has compared those terms and conditions with those imposed upon local authorities for similar purposes at the present time; and if he will say how they compare?
Under an agreement dated the 1st April, 1917, the Minister agreed to advance £100,000 to the Shropshire, Worcestershire, and Staffordshire Electric Power Company on the security of £120,000 of that company's second debenture stock, forming part of an authorised issue of £200,000 second debenture stock. This loan bears interest at the rate of 1 per cent, above current bank rate with a minimum of 5 per cent, per annum, and is repayable by ten equal annual instalments, the first annual instalment to become due and payable on the 1st day of January, 1919. The whole of this loan has now been advanced.
Under an agreement dated 19th January, 1918, carrying out arrangements made in August, 1917, the Minister agreed to advance a further £100,000 to this company on the security of £80,000 of second debenture stock of the Shropshire, Worcestershire, and Staffordshire Electric Power Company, and by the transfer to the Ministry of £40,000 second debenture stock of the Birmingham District Power and Traction Company, Limited, which forms part of an authorised issue of £200,000 second debenture stock. This loan bears interest at 1 per cent, over current bank rate with a minimum of 5 per cent, per annum, and is repayable by fifteen equal annual instalments, the first annual instalment to become due and payable on the 1st day of January, 1920. Of this loan £20,000 has now been advanced. In general the terms and conditions are similar to those arranged with local authorities, but conditions vary, each case being considered on its merits.Munitions
Housing Of Workers, Lincoln
64.
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware of the shortage of housing accommodation in Lincoln; that there is unrest amongst the munition workers there in consequence of the shortage and the evictions taking place; and whether he will schedule Lincoln as a specified area, with a view to prohibiting the eviction of munition worker?
A shortage of housing accommodation is known to exist in Lincoln, and a scheme for the erection of permanent houses has already been formulated. The question of declaring Lincoln a special area for the purposes of Regulation 2A. (2) of the Defence of the Realm Regulations is also under consideration, but the present information of the Department is that not more than six ejectment orders have been issued during the last twelve months, and only one during the last four months.
Railway Return Tickets
66.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether an Order of universal application, for the duration of the War, has been made whereby on account of the restricted train service return tickets are made available for the return journey by any route that suits the Convenience of the holder of the ticket irrespective of the fact that the route selected by the traveller for the return journey is owned by a different railway company to the company which originally issued the ticket, provided that both railway companies come under the jurisdiction of the Railway Executive Committee; and, if so, whether this Order overrides any local Orders or exceptions that an individual railway company may have made?
No such general Order has been made. The general practice now is that passengers holding ordinary tickets covering points directly served by two or more companies' routes arc allowed to travel, for the throughout journey only, by any of such recognised routes.
Arising out of that reply, may I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that season ticket holders are not allowed this convenience?
Military Service
Shipyard Workers
67.
asked the Minister of National Service if he is aware that skilled workmen engaged on the construction of concrete ships at Hanworthy are receiving their calling-up papers, that when the recruiting officer's attention was called to the fact that these men were engaged on shipbuilding he stated that the military authorities had not been informed that the work was shipbuilding; and whether, in view of the serious shortage of ships, he will give instructions that men engaged on this class of work must not be called to the Colours?
Instructions have already been issued to all directors of National Service to the effect that men employed by firms engaged in the construction of concrete ships are to be dealt with in the same manner and to receive similar protection under the Schedule of Protected Occupations as employés on other forms of hull construction and repair. If the hon. Member will let me have the names, addresses, and full particulars with regard to the men at Hanworthy who are alleged to have been irregularly dealt with by the recruiting authorities and also the name of the firm, I will cause investigations to be made into the matter.
Why is it necessary for the hon. Member to ask for the names and addresses of the men affected when it seems to be the general policy to call up these men; and, in view of the very serious position of the shipbuilding industry, why is not a clear Instruction issued?
My hon. Friend did not listen to my answer. First, I said: "Instructions have already been issued to all directors of National Service to the effect that men employed by firms engaged in the construction of concrete ships are to be dealt with in the same manner and to receive similar protection under the Schedule of Protected Occupations as employés on other forms of hull construction and repair."
Will the hon. Gentleman see to it that these Instructions are so framed that one gentleman cannot interpret an Instruction in one way and another gentleman in another way?
That is why I asked for the information. I believe the Instructions are being interpreted properly, but I will make inquiries.
Marine Engineers
68.
asked the Minister of National Service whether he is aware that, notwithstanding Circular 1584, dated June, 1917, issued by the Board of Trade, which allows two months on shore for preparation by sea-going engineers for Board of Trade examination, recruiting officers have in some instances issued, before the expiry of the time named, calling-up notices to sea-going engineers in course of preparation for examination; and whether he will take steps to call the attention of all recruiting officers to the circular above referred to, so that seagoing engineers may have proper time to prepare for their examinations of competency?
I am not aware of any such practice on the part of recruiting officers as that referred to by the hon. Baronet. If he will supply me with the names and addresses of men to whom he alleges that calling-up notices have been sent in contravention of the Board of Trade circular referred to by him, I shall be glad to investigate them.
Exchange Of Prisoners
69.
asked the hon. Member for Sheffield (Central Division) whether he can state the exact number of British prisoners of war that are now interned in Holland under the recent exchange scheme; and how many have also been returned to this country up till now under the same scheme?
Three hundred and thirty-three officer prisoners, 1,466 non-commissioned officers, and 107 naval ratings have been transferred to Holland, and 733 combatant prisoners of various ranks, and 64 medical personnel have been repatriated. Eighty-two civilian prisoners of war have been transferred to Holland up to the present time, and 378 have been repatriated. In addition to these figures, 119 civilians are expected to be repatriated in the course of a day or two
Powers Of Guardians (Ireland)
70.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he will consider the possibility during the present Session of introducing legislation to amend Section 7 of 25 and 26 Vic, c. 83 (Irish Poor Law Further Amendment Act, 1862), by giving power to a board of guardians, on the recommendation of a medical officer, to send any poor person, whether an inmate of the workhouse or not, to an extern hospital for treatment?
As stated by my hon. Friend the Solicitor-General in a written answer to a question by the hon. Member for West Cavan in the OFFICIAL REPORT of Monday last, representations as to the necessity for such an amendment in the law have been received and are being considered.
Rents (War Restrictions)
73.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the Government intend to take any steps to extend the Courts Emergency Powers Acts to houses of all rentals and values in those districts free from air raids, where hardship is being inflicted upon the present tenants through the profiteering by increasing rents or attempts to force tenants to buy at excessive prices to keep their houses over the heads of their wives and families?
I have been asked to answer this question. I cannot give any undertaking that the limits of rental in the Increase of Rents and Mortgage Interest (War Restrictions) Act, 1915, will be widened.
Enemy Air Raids
Day And Night Maroon Warnings
74.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that there is in many parts of London a desire that the maroon warnings of air raids shall be given in future all night; is he prepared to authorise this in future; and can he make any statement that will satisfy the people who desire the extension of the hours of the existing warnings?
I am aware that considerable interest is taken in this matter, and in view of representations which have been received and of the experience gained during recent air raids, the question has been reconsidered.
It is believed that the meaning of the maroons is now well understood, and that they are generally appreciated as an effective warning of a threatened air raid; and I am informed that owing to the complete arrangements made by Home Forces the risk of a false alarm is now reduced to a minimum. I am further informed that there is still some uneasiness lest if an air raid should commence after midnight the warning to take cover should not reach the back streets, and that the promise of a sound warning at all hours would produce a feeling of greater confidence. In these circumstances, and notwithstanding some strong arguments to the contrary, the Commissioner of Police proposes to give the maroon warning at all hours of the day or night when an air raid is impending. I may perhaps be allowed to add that in no case should the maroon warning be treated as an invitation to the house- holder to leave his house, the safest course in all cases being to remain at home and and to keep the children there.Arising out of that answer will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to have public notices issued at once stating his new decision?
Will he say whether he has considered the desirability of using a syren at night? It is less alarming.
We have considered that very carefully, and have discarded the suggestion. I think my announcement will be fairly widely known, but I will consider whether some further notice should be given.
Will the Home Secretary consider the issuing of a very special notice to people about not leaving their houses. Taking children out of their warm beds into the cold streets has been responsible for a great deal of illness and death, and could not something more urgent be issued?
There is a notice to that effect already issued, but I will see whether something more striking cannot be issued.
Loss Of Ss "Glenart Castle"
Gallantry Of American Sailors
6.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if his attention has been called to the circumstances under which the navigating officer of the "Glenart Castle" was rescued by the United States destroyer "Parker" about fifteen hours after the "Glenart Castle" had gone down; whether the Admiralty have received a report that these a was still running high and the immersed British sailors were in submarine-infested waters, so that the destroyer was unable to stop to enable a life-line to be thrown or a boat to be lowered; whether two sailors from the "Parker" jumped overboard as she passed near to the raft, a distance of about 50 yards, swam to the raft, and brought the navigating officer in a practically unconscious condition to the "Parker"; whether these American sailors then did the same in the case of each of the three remaining men, two of whom were dead on reaching the "Parker," and the third surviving; and, if so, whether this action on the part of the United States sailors will be duly recognised by the Admiralty, having regard to the nature of their undertaking and the skill with which the "Parker" was kept near to the raft although on the move the whole time at considerable speed?
The United States destroyer "Parker" rescued nine survivors of the "Glenart Castle" (of whom one died on board), including the fourth navigation officer.
The two United States naval ratings referred to deserve the greatest credit for their action in jumping overboard, in view of the temperature of the water, the choppy sea running, and the distance of the raft from the ship. Other ratings also jumped on to small rafts or wreckage, and deserve credit. The Admiralty profoundly appreciate the seamanship and very great gallantry displayed by the United States destroyer.Is there any distinction for which these two gallant men can be recommended, having regard to the splendid gallantry of their action and their success in rescuing the navigation officer of the "Glenart Castle"?
I have already stated, and I repeat most warmly, our recognition of those services, but that is hardly a matter for the Government, and it is more a matter for the United States authorities.
Having regard to the custom by which a captain of a foreign ship is frequently honoured at the discretion of the Board of Trade by the granting of a medal or a service of gold plate or something of that kind, does my right hon. Friend not think that an act of this kind, especially in the circumstances, should be recognised in a somewhat similar manner?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Union Castle Company, who deeply recognise the gallantry of these American sailors, have already approached the American Admiral and asked that they may be allowed to do something to recognise this gallantry, but as they have not been allowed to do so—this is stated in a very nice letter which the Admiral has written in reply—will the Government consider the advisability of making some recognition on behalf of the Government?
Is it not a fact that during the War the Governments of our Allies have frequently recognised acts of gallantry on the part of our men in saving the lives of their sailors at sea?
Is it not the opinion that generally the citizens of the United States are rather averse to awards of personal distinctions and honours, and will they not value much more the sentiment of appreciation which this House has expressed for the extreme gallantry shown on this occasion?
What is the object of keeping this story of gallantry quiet and waiting until it is dragged out, when it ought to have been published days ago?
We have expressed earlier our very great gratitude for the way in which the American sailors acted in this matter. I think the way my right hon. Friend (Mr. Acland) has put the matter quite accuratey represents the view of the United States Government. Nevertheless, if we can properly make any suggestion which they will recognise as an appropriate one of enabling us, if it is desired, in a substantial way to emphasise our opinion of this act of gallantry, certainly we will do so.
Quartermasters (Temporary)
24.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office why a quartermaster with the rank of captain should only receive the same pay as a second-lieutenant; and whether ho will consider the injustice of this, especially with regard to temporary quartermasters appointed during the early stages of the War?
I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which I gave on the 25th February to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for East Belfast.
Will my right hon. Friend say why these officers do not receive the increased pay?
My hon. and gallant Friend knows perfectly well that quartermasters' pay does not depend on rank, but on the length of service as quartermaster.
Retired Pay (Army Officers)
25.
asked whether officers who have been compulsorily retained in the Service without the retired pay to which they were entitled have been recently gazetted out and offered re-employment on the pay of their rank, but without their retired pay; and, if so, whether these officers will be placed on the same footing as the re-called officer and be permitted to draw their retired pay?
An officer retained in the Service is not entitled to retired pay. But I understand my hon. and gallant Friend to refer to cases in which officers retired during the War have been warned that, if voluntarily re-employed, they will not be entitled to claim full pay in addition to retired pay. This is in accordance with the Royal Warrant published as Army Order 235 of August last.
Then I understand that they will be allowed to draw their retired pay whatever extra is given?
The officers' retired pay is always safe. You cannot touch that.
Parcel Post (Losses)
39.
asked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to the number of parcels lost in the post recently; whether this is due to theft on the part of members of the staff; how many claims for lost parcels are at present unsettled and the number at the corresponding date last year; whether he will take steps to see that claims are more promptly settled; and what steps he proposes to take to effect a remedy?
I am not aware of any recent increase in the number of parcels lost in the post, whether through theft or otherwise. Sometimes delay occurs on account of the inexperience of the temporary staff who deal with these claims. The figures for which the hon. Member asks are not procurable.
Old Age Pensions
42.
asked the President of the Local Government Board if he is aware that hardship is caused from the fact that many eligible applicants for old age pensions, although making their applications in proper time, are, owing to the interval between the date of application and the committee's decision, deprived of their pension for some weeks after reaching the statutory age; and whether he will provide that eligible applicants who make their application within a specified time of reaching the age of seventy will be paid the pension awarded as from the attainment of their seventieth birthday?
A claim may by law be preferred at any time within four months in advance of the date of fulfilling the statutory conditions. If the hon. Member is aware of any case in which a claimant has preferred a claim four months in advance of the date of fulfilling the statutory conditions, and yet has not obtained payment of the pension as from that date, I should be glad if he would furnish me with the particulars, so that I may have inquiry made into the matter.
43.
asked the President of the Local Government Board if he is aware that cases occur where old age pensioners whose income becomes increased so that the pensions are liable to revision and reduction have their pensions reduced by amounts larger than the amounts by which their income has been increased; and whether he will provide that where pensions are reduced on account of increase of income the reduction shall not exceed the amount by which the income has been increased so that no reduction in the total income is incurred?
It is the fact that in exceptional cases an increase in a pensioner's means may result in a decrease of his pension by an amount slightly larger than the increase, but in no circumstances could the difference amount to 1s. a week. I regret that I cannot undertake to initiate legislation in the direction suggested by the hon. Member.
Court Of Session, Scotland (Judges' Salaries)
54.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the amount of money paid as salary to the most recently appointed judge in the Court of Session in Scotland from his appointment on 20th of July to the 20th of October?
Lord Sands has been paid at the rate of £3,600 a year, the salary attaching to his post, since the 21st July, 1917, the date of his appointment.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Court of Session rose for the long vacation on the 21st July, and this judge therefore bad a quarter's salary without being asked to do any duties? Is this the economy of the Government?
Yes; I am aware of it through questions put by the hon. Member, who has devoted his energy to the Secretary for Scotland, which I advise him to continue.
War Bond Campaign
Statement By Mr Bonar Law
I wish to announce to the House the results of last week's War Bond campaign. The sales of National War Bonds of the Bank of England series amounted to £127,870,240, of which upwards of £75,000,000 was contributed by London.
To this must be added the sales of the Post Office issues, which, it is estimated, amounted to £2,900,000, making a total of £130,770,240. In addition, the sales of War Savings Certificates for the week realised £8,100,000—a grand total of £138,870,240. I think the House will agree that this is a very satisfactory result, and I desire to take this opportunity of thanking all those who, in conjunction with the Director of the Publicity Campaign, have co-operated so whole-heartedly with the Government in making this week a success. I have received from all parts of the country letters and communications which show that every class and every district have done their part. I should like to make special mention of the efforts of the National War Savings Committee and the officers and members of their local committees throughout the country. As was the case in connection with the War Loan of last year, the Government has also received the most cordial and unsparing assistance from all local authorities. Our thanks are also due to the Aldwych Club for organising the campaign, and to the Press. Newspapers of every shade of opinion have done their utmost to obtain the largest possible contribution during the week. It may interest the House to know that Since the beginning of last October, when the issue of National War Bonds began, the amount of these bonds sold has reached a total of approximately £570,000,000. The effect of the War Bond Campaign has not only been seen in the increasing sales of the bonds, but also in the results obtained from the sales of certificates. To illustrate this, I may say that for the month of September last the sales realised £2,800,000, whilst last February the sales amounted to no less than £8,100,000. One result of the campaign of last week has, I think, been to make the advantages of investing in War Bonds even more widely known than before, and I am convinced that it will have a lasting effect in stimulating the week-by-week contributions, which are the best indication of the determination of the country to continue the sustained effort that has already been so successful.Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many millions of the £570,000,000 would otherwise have come in to the Treasury in the shape of excess profits?
It is obviously quite impossible to tell, but I may say that we have done everything that we could to discourage investment in War Bonds of money which would immediately come into the Exchequer in the form of taxation.
Message From The Lords
Consolidation Bills,—The Lords propose that the Joint Committee appointed to consider all Consolidation Bills do meet in Committee Room A on) Wednesday next, at Three o'clock.
Lords Message considered:—
Ordered, That the Committee of this House do meet the Lords Committee, as proposed by their Lordships.— [ Lord Edmund Talbot.]
Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.
National Expenditure
Second Report of the Select Committee brought up, and read; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 30.]
Orders Of The Day
Consolidated Fund (No 1) Bill
Considered in Committee, and reported, without amendment; to be read the third time To-morrow.
Education Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
It is somewhat of an innovation that a Bill of this importance should be introduced under the Ten-minute Rule and Should not be moved by a speech from any of the Ministers who are responsible for it. I am not quite certain that the House will entirely welcome that innovation, particularly if they are asked to start this Debate by listening to me. I have been called upon at very short notice to take the place of colleagues who have been more closely connected with the Education Department than I have been—instead of listening to the Minister for Education or the Under-Secretary. I am bound to say that the chief feeling in my mind in approaching this subject is one of regret that more than seven months should have elapsed before we have reached this stage of considering the Bill, which in its main outlines is the same as the Bill which my right hon. Friend introduced in August last. I had hoped that we should have got further in this extraordinary vital matter before the middle of March was reached, and I am sure that the House will be glad to be assured by my right hon. Friend, when he speaks, that the Government are absolutely determined to get the Bill through. He can at any rate rely, so far as I am entitled to speak for those on this bench, that he will have the most cordial support possible in passing into law the central principles of the Bill. Looking back on the time that has elapsed since August, we may safely say that during the interval public opinion on the whole has been consolidating behind the Bill and in favour of it. I have tried in a small way to do what I am sure many hon. Members of this House have done. I have attended conferences and gatherings of persons who were anxious to have the Bill explained to them, and I have become aware, as other hon. Members who have tried to do the same thing must have become aware, of a very steady backing behind the Bill, particularly from the great mass of our working-class population. There is, I believe, a solid determination that there shall be for all classes an extension of publicly-provided education throughout the years of adolescence, as there has long been for the small class that has been able to afford to pay for that education. Those who have been in any way in touch with what has been going on must have admired the tireless energy which the President of the Board of Education has shown in meeting persons and organisations interested in this matter. He has been largely responsible by the candid way in which he has been willing to explain his Bill to audiences friendly or hostile for the growing public approbation behind it, and he ought to be heartily congratulated. That is particularly the case with regard to his efforts to overcome the hostility to his proposal to abolish the half-time system. If I am correctly informed, already something like half the employers in the industries which have in the main made use of the half-timer are in favour of the abolition of the system, and for the first time the leaders of the trade unions, who, I am sorry to say, in the past have placed obstacles in the way of its removal, are definitely recommending to the trade unions, among whom they are going to take a ballot, that the system henceforward should be abolished. Knowing something of the strength of feeling in Lancashire and Yorkshire, I am not sure that would have been possible at all, without a great deal of the personal work given to the matter by the President of the Board of Education himself.
I would like to refer to certain lines of opposition which have developed since the Bill was first laid before this House, some of which have been considerably allayed by the new form in which the Bill is now put forward and some of which perhaps still exist. There was at first, as we all know, considerable opposition from and on behalf of local authorities. They thought that the Bill, as introduced, gave the Board of Education too much power to mould their schemes without sufficient consideration for the particular circumstances of the localities concerned. In my view, and I speak as an old servant of the Education Department, in nine cases out of ten the schemes would have been, better for giving very wide powers indeed to the Board of Education for helping in the development of those schemes. Our local education authorities, with some very brilliant exceptions, are directed by men who fail, sometimes at any rate, to have a broad outlook with regard to educational ideals and who have not a very great understanding of what a comprehensive scheme of national education really involves. Members of education committees, in this period when local elections have been necessarily suspended, have been inclined to take their views rather from their officials than from their constituents outside, who are tending to range themselves solidly behind the Bill. I believe that some of them, when they have to meet their constituents again when we can again hold municipal and local elections, will be reminded of the opposition they have tended to make. There is, in fact, on behalf of some of the local officials something like a jealousy of any action from Whitehall, which could hardly be greater if the action were to come not from Whitehall but from Berlin. I believe, so far as education is concerned, that that jealousy of Whitehall is wholly misplaced. I believe that many of the officials and inspectors of the Board of Education are most highly qualified to help local education authorities to work out their schemes, and that they would be willing and able to take the very fullest account of the special conditions which might necessitate departing from any sealed pattern. In spite of my feeling that the Board would have done well to keep some measure of real control in their own hands, probably the President has been wisely advised to recast his Bill, as he has done, so as to remove the fears of local authorities in this matter. Then there is the opposition which has developed in some quarters from industries. I am sure the President of the Board will wish to give very careful consideration to objections coming from those quarters, provided that they do not in any way negative the central principle which is enshrined in the Bill, namely, that there should be a really bold application of day part-time continuation schooling for young persons of both sexes. Some opposition that I have heard of has taken the form of really negativing that central principle of the Bill. I believe that some of the coal owners, certainly some of the people representing the farmers, have tended to take the view that their industries cannot possibly stand any diminution of the hours spent by boys and girls in work in order that there may be an extension of the hours spent in school. I think it will be impossible for the Government in any sort of way to compromise, with that kind of out-and-out opposition to the central principle of the Bill. After all, this sort of thing has happened before. There have been at different dates during the last century successive diminutions of the time which was allowed to be spent by children or young persons in industries of various kinds. I believe that, in the overwhelming opinion of those who have really studied this rather important social question, the right limitation of the time children and young persons may spend in employment has not been reached at all. There have been always prophecies by the industries concerned of ruin if the boys or girls were withdrawn for a few more hours in the week in order that they might receive public instruction. Those prophecies have never been fulfilled. On the contrary, there has followed every increasing safeguard for the Health and instruction of young persons engaged in industries a still fresh expansion of the industry concerned, and I believe there is no instance of an industry which has even been damaged, let alone ruined, by the limitation of the hours that children or young persons might spend in purely wage earning in connection with it. No one who has an appreciation of what life ought to be can doubt for a moment that there should be, during the years of growth for the children of the 95 per cent. roughly, of our population, who send their children to elementary schools, a far greater approximation to the conditions which have always prevailed for the children of the 5 per cent. Who do not send their children to that type of school. There is a general feeling that education should not be so much as it has been in the past a matter of class, or a matter of the particular amount of means which a particular class has, but that there should be something like a more general uniformity of educational opportunity throughout all classes, and that after we have all received, whatever our means may be, as good an education as the country can afford, there surely will be plenty of opportunity for people to find their own level and to segregate off into classes. I believe that in the position in which we shall find ourselves after the War industries that do not want workers with a broader outlook, a better trained character and an increased power of applying their brains, not only to the particular industry concerned but to the ordinary problems of citizenship, are not industries that we shall be able to encourage or even to keep in this country. Undoubtedly there are difficult times coming. We simply cannot afford to let our industries lack the better mental equipment which all those engaged in them will obtain if the main provisions of this Bill are carried out. We shall need to exercise national economy in every possible way. I am convinced, and I believe the House is convinced, that the truest possible national economy is wide and wise expenditure on a system of education. 4.0 P.M. Then there has been in some quarters a disposition on the part of parents—not wide, but it has been expressed—to say that they cannot do without the earnings that the children would have brought in if they were allowed to begin full-time earning at thirteen, or even at twelve and a-half in some cases, and that in any case the parents cannot afford to do without the earnings which would have been brought in by those between fourteen and eighteen, if young persons had been able to give the whole of their time to money making. Surely the answer to that argument is that wages of adult workers should be so adjusted as to enable the adults to do without the amounts earned by their children of those ages. It is one of the reasons why I hope that this Bill will be quickly passed into law, that there may be that readjustment of adult wages which would enable parents to do without these wages of their children at the same time as we have a general readjustment in our industrial conditions which will follow the conclusion of the War. I am bound to say I particularly fear that the argument that the industry does not need any better educated men than it has got, and that no extra wages can be paid, will be used on behalf of certain sections of the agricultural industry. We frequently hear of cases in agriculture of the man who received no schooling, it may be, after the age of eight or nine, who is quite unable to read or write, and yet who, perhaps, can fatten calves better than anyone in the country. This sort of instances are used to prove to us that the children of the agricultural labourers do not need any sort of education other than and beyond that they can get in the ordinary elementary schools as they at present exist. I believe no industry has more to gain than agriculture from the better education of those who take part in it, accompanied as it must be by a gradually increased standard of wage to the adult workers, and I believe already very many of the best of the younger generation of farmers are of that opinion. As against the instance that we shall no doubt hear of the extremely efficient agricultural worker who has not had really any education, I should like to quote an extract from a letter I received the other day from a very hard-headed Yorkshire landowner, who really uses his land on scientific lines and conducts his industry in a most businesslike way. He says:Well, what would be an extra ten shillings or fifteen shillings a week in such a case? I believe a thoroughly well-educated man can enormously improve the productive capacities of agriculture. A line of criticism of the Bill is put forward by those who say that the change that my right hon. Friend wishes to see adopted is so big that it is really impossible to put it into force at a time like this. That reminds me of a saying of Archbishop Whately to those who are opposed to political change, "that when the bed of a torrent is dry they think that a bridge is not wanted, and when the stream comes down that the bridge cannot be built." I think we ought boldly to undertake the building of the bridge of a truly national system of education, however disturbed the stream of our political and industrial life may be in the years that lie ahead of us, and I think that criticism, so far as it has a basis, has been largely met in the Bill by the provision that the Act"I have a well-educated man here doing war work. He is working as herdsman among the cows and doing the feeding and bedding-up, cleaning the cow byres, etc., etc., like a labourer. My manager claims that this has saved me in twelve months a good £300 and more."
If that be so, I think that ought to remove the apprehension which has been felt in some quarters that the whole country would be required to adopt these large new proposals at once, however unprepared certain areas might be. I believe those provisions ought to satisfy that apprehension, and ought to allow the scheme to be brought into operation gradually as different local authorities work out their proposals. The House, of course, will not wish me to attempt any sort of review of what is contained in the Bill. Those who want to know know already, and those who do not know do not want to know. But I hope there will be in the course of our discussions no weakening of the provisions of the Bill affecting the physical welfare of children and young persons. I believe the whole House welcomes with both hands the provision bringing young persons up to eighteen years of age under the skilled attention of school medical officers. I hope it will be possible to press forward, for instance, a complete dental service for children from five years of age up to sixteen or eighteen. I am chairman of a Committee now sitting on dental matters at the Privy Council Office, and nothing has been brought to our minds more strongly than that a uniform, universal school medical service for children through the whole of their school time would be the best measure of preventive medicine that this country has ever adopted. There would be an enormous saving of human waste if persons who passed out of our schools at the age of sixteen or eighteen were certain to have their teeth put in thoroughly proper scientific order. I welcome also the provisions which enable local authorities to provide, or help to provide, physical training centres, playing fields, baths, holiday camps, or facilities for social and physical training in the day and in the evening, and I hope these will remain in the fine form in which they are contained in the Bill. This Bill, with the exception of its central principle of a continuation of the sphere of education into the lives of children and young persons, is very generally concerned with machinery, and many of the real things that we want to have done lie behind the machinery, and clearly the Minister of Education will only be free to back them up and get them established when the machinery contained in the Bill is established and when that matter has been settled. We want, for instance, surely a real improvement and development in the status, the salaries, and the conditions of work of the teachers of this country in the elementary and secondary schools. We want surely such a development of our scholarship system, including maintenance grants in the later years, as shall make us drop altogether the expression "educational ladder" out of our vocabulary, so that we may speak instead of the educational highway. A ladder, after all, is a shaky thing by which people mount precariously, a step at a time. It is a broad highway that we want from school to school, according to the real powers and abilities of the children concerned. We want the bringing of our private schools for all classes, the rich as well as those less well off, under the effective supervision of the Board of Education. We want a simplification of our system of examinations. We want great changes and developments in the methods in which we teach certain subjects, particularly science and modem languages. All these things lie beyond the Bill. They will only be effectively tackled when the Bill is passed, and it seems to me that is an argument why we should get this splendid piece of machinery through, so that those great matters may be tackled and the President and his officials may have time to devote to them. I believe if this Parliament will pass the Bill after examination, after criticism, it may be after amendment, but without any destruction of the essential features of the proposal—and no doubt it will be the last great legislative Act of its existence—we shall nave earned for ourselves the lasting gratitude of posterity."may commence on a day to be appointed and different days may be appointed for different purposes and different provisions of the Act for different areas and for different persons or classes of persons in those areas."
I beg to move, to leave out the word "now," and, at the end of the Question, to add the words "upon this day six months."
The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Acland) no doubt, as we have gathered, rose to give a vicarious blessing to the Bill, standing in loco parentis, as we are not to hear the President of the Board of Education, but in his last remark he was certainly giving us a very fair criticism, one of the many which can be applied to this Bill, of what is not in it, telling us what our education system ought to be, and what it is, and telling us certainly what this Bill does not make it. I know I run the risk of being considered merely opposed to increased educational facilities in moving the rejection of the Bill, but I think I shall be able to show that I have two great reasons which have nothing whatever to do with opposition to education—and nothing is further from my mind than that—which compel me, since no one else has done so, to move this Motion. The first is that this Parliament is wholly unfitted to deal with this question, that a great part of the personnel of this Parliament who could most effectively criticise and correct the errors of such a measure of educational reform and reconstruction as this Bill is are either absent or silent in our Debates, and the second line of argument was just touched upon by the right hon. Gentleman when he proceeded on the line of saying that the agricultural community and certain industries had a sort of non-possumus attitude, that they said they could not possibly spare children and young persons for a single hour from their employment, whereas, as a matter of fact, the criticism which I shall show to the House, and which has come to me from outside, is much more a criticism of the ineffective and piecemeal method of continuation schools which is proposed in this Bill than any opposition to a fuller and freer education for all classes in this country. I hold that this Parliament has certainly no right to deal with this question. It is now in its eighth year. Its life has been extended on three or four occasions in order to support the Government of the day in the prosecution of the War, and if I may ask the House to consider the analogy of the Khaki Election of 1900 and the subsequent Education Act of 1902, we had then a Parliament elected to carry on and finish the war which was then raging in South Africa, and although the Ministry which went out and sought again a lease of confidence from the people announced that they were going to deal with education, yet they were freely criticised for dealing with any of these social questions and not confining their activities simply to the prosecution and completion of the War. This Parliament and this Ministry have no possible claim to have had entrusted to them by the electorate a mandate to carry out such a Bill as this. We have just passed a great measure of electoral reform. A new and practically a doubled electorate is in process of enumeration and registration. The outstanding feature of that Act which has so recently become law is that it places some 6,000,000 women upon the register, most of whom are mothers. Surely they have some right still left, even in our semi-Socialist State, to have a say in the education of their children and to have the proposals of such a Bill as this put before them at a General Election. The male parents of a vast number of these children who are to be dealt with in this Bill are away in the various theatres of the War, fighting for their country, fighting for liberty, and for the possibility of any measure of social reform such as this. Surely they have some right to be consulted on a measure of this kind, which is proposed to be passed in this eighth year of the present Parliament, in the absence of most Members who can best deal with it! The next reason that I would give to the House on the broad, general grounds is that this Bill is obviously a reconstruction measure. By no possibility can it be regarded as a war measure, and, even admitting that it is an urgent reconstruction measure, it should certainly not be one of the first measures of our reconstruction. The course of wisdom would be to let our trade and industry have a little breathing space to settle down and to absorb the vast mass of labour that will be released from the Colours before we can come to a fair conclusion as to whether such an industrial revolution as this Bill proposes can be stood at such a time, and whether this is the precise kind of industrial revolution that you should encourage. On that point I would like to read a paragraph from an able Report, which, I believe, has reached many Members, from the Federation of British Industries. This Federation is practically the only trade organisation in the country which has really considered and worked out some alternative to the right hon. Gentleman's proposal. This Federation of British Industries sent a questionnaire to over 2,000 of its members and the members of allied associations, and in the preamble of this report they say:I have read that quotation to the House because I do not want hon. Members to think that on such a grave matter as this I am expressing my own view. I am expressing the view of the vast majority of 2,000 of our great industries who were consulted on this question. On the broad, general ground, the last consideration which I will put before the House is this: Has this Parliament the time to deal properly with all the details of such a measure as this? In that connection I would like to know whether it is proposed, and I feel I can almost assume it, that this Bill will be left to a Committee of the Whole House?"From the answers which have been received to the questionnaire it is evident that in every industry this proposal (that is the continuation schools which are set up in Clauses 10, 11, and 12), is viewed with great alarm, as the establishment of the new system would occur at the very time when it would be most essential for the industrial future of the country that the minimum of dislocation should take place."
indicated assent.
The right hon. Gentleman says "Yes." On that assumption, I say that we have not the time to go through a Bill of this magnitude now, dealing with no war problems whatever, taking it line by line, as it ought to be taken, and considering it as it would be considered in the next Parliament if the War were over. If you want a sound measure of educational and industrial reform in this country—for this Bill deals with both questions—you must have, according to the precedent of the past, a minute investigation and consideration by the whole House of Commons, and not by a mere fraction of it. The House must give its undivided attention to the measure, and not have its attention distracted by great problems of the War. The commercial community has had no time adequately to consider this Bill or to put alternative proposals before the House. I have heard that the great argument for bringing this Bill on now is that it is possible to get it through this Parliament now, whereas it would be difficult to get it through a real Parliament, constituted properly to consider it. If that be so, the proposal to smuggle it through because people are too busy to consider it outside, and Members are too busily engaged, and consequently are unable to consider it, is a dishonest proposal, and, if it is not unconstitutional, it is, at any rate, contrary to Parliamentary practice and the main underlying principles of constitutional government.
On the merits of the Bill I have one or two things to say. In regard particularly to the main principle, the principle of compulsion as opposed to opportunity and selection, I cannot help being struck by the fact that at the very outset of the Bill the right hon. Gentleman starts upon a path which he utterly fails to pursue. In the first two lines of the first Clause he says:That is an admirable sentence, and if the principle were carried out in the Bill I should have very little to complain of, but I do not see after its announcement any indication that the right hon. Gentleman is devising the scheme to bring the advanced education within the reach of those who are capable of profiting thereby. When I say "profiting," I mean not only having their brains developed, but seeing that that advanced education can be put to a profitable use, and that implies having a career before them in which they can profitably use the advanced education which they get. On the question of compulsion as opposed to opportunity and selection, I would like to read two other paragraphs from the Report of the British Industries Federation. They say:"With a view to establishing a national system of public education available for all persons capable of profiting thereby."
I ask the House to contrast the principle of what I have just read with what the-right hon. Member for Cambourne (Mr. Acland) told us was the attitude of employers in many of the industries of this country. There is one other passage from the Report which I wish to read. It will be remembered that the Federation sent a questionnaire to 2,000 of their members-respecting the proposed continuation schools. The Report says:"At the very outset of their Report the Committee wish to state quite categorically that they consider the extension and still more the improvement, of the educational system of the country to be one of the greatest needs of the present time, and they will welcome any well-considered development of educational facilities for all children without distinction throughout the country. If any of their recommendations appear to fall short of this ideal, it is because they feel that at present it is impracticable to obtain all that may be desirable. They have-accordingly decided to lay stress in their Report on those reforms which they believe to be moat urgent: firstly, the improvement of elementary education; secondly, the provision of a full, secondary education for the more able children, and, only after those measures have been taken, an improved education for the remainder."
That is the principle of the Bill."Of the 2,044 replies which have been received on this subject 1,186 have approved the proposal of whole-time education for selected children, whereas only twenty-three are in favour of part-time education for all children."
On the question of the merits of the Bill I say that undoubtedly in extending the powers of the Board of Education in the way it does, and extending the principle of compulsion, it constitutes a very large advance towards the Socialist theory that children belong to the State, and that the men and women, who are citizens of the State, are to be regarded as mere breeding machines. The joys, duties, and the responsibilities of parenthood are held by the masses of the people, I am thankful to say, to be inherent in humanity. But under this Bill parental authority and control up to the age of eighteen are practically abolished, and the Board of Education is set up in its place. Clause 10 and other Clauses in the Bill go further. They set up the Board of Education as the sole judge of their own laws. I do not think that these are possible provisions, because the educational authorities are not regarded by the people as a whole as being impartial in the jurisdiction they already exercise over these educational questions. May I read to the House one case which has been brought to my notice. It was contained in an article on this subject in the "Candid Review." A number of cases of what are regarded as the tyranny of the education authorities under the present Act are given. Here is one:"Two hundred and thirty-three firms suggest a combination of the two systems. The remainder, very largely consisting of the cotton industry, approves of a combination of whole-time and part-time education, provided that both are confined to selected children. It is considered by several industries that the adoption of the system of universal part-time education will be fatal to their future development, and even to their continued existence."
In the face of a case like that it is not likely that the public of this country will, welcome the setting up of the education authority as the sole judge as to whether the provisions of this Act are being carried out or not. We are fighting this War against Prussianism, and I do not think that the people when they understand this Bill will be willing to entrust the right hon. Gentleman with powers to set up a latter day Star Chamber in respect of those young persons, as he calls them, and their parents. In regard to some of the detailed provisions of the Bill I shall only touch on one or more of the main Clauses which effect great changes. The principle one is Clause 10, which is followed by Clauses 11 and 12, which deal with the same subject. That is the Clause which sets up the system of the proposed continuation schools. I have had from different parts of the country a good many criticisms of the right hon. Gentleman's proposal. I will first read a short extract from a letter from one of the ablest agriculturists I know, a man who has succeeded so well at his own trade that he is the owner of his own farm and is an acknowledged expert in the breeding of the breeds of sheep and cattle that are most common in the county of Wilts. Dealing with Clause 10 he says:"A labourer took his boy of thirteen away from school and sent him to work on a dairy farm, partly because of the boy's own wish, and partly because he had a natural gift for milking, which the father rightly considered should be cultivated. He became a greater adept at his work than any man upon the farm; but the labourer was summoned and fined 11s. 6d. including costs. Nevertheless, he continued to keep the boy away from school, and he was summoned again. On this, a neighbouring lady who was acquainted with the man took up the case. Hearing that there had been a judgment in the High Court in a similar case, in which the Lord Chief Justice had held that the Education Act, 1899, totally exempted children of thirteen from attendance at school if they were engaged in agriculture, she instructed a solicitor to defend the man and to raise this point. The summons was immediately withdrawn, and it can only be assumed that either the education authorities were blamably ignorant of the law, or that, knowing the law, they initiated a wholly unjustifiable prosecution."
He might have added that it would be extraordinarily difficult under the particular proposals of the right hon. Gentleman of this part-time education for forty weeks in the year, breaking employment during the whole of that time for four years, to get any boys to qualify as herdsmen or sheep tenders at all. The Swindon District Branch of the National Union of Farmers held a meeting the other day. I think that the right hon. Baronet would like to hear what they said with regard to these particular provisions in the neighbourhood where he farms himself:"If this proposal should be reduced to practice it will mean a further set back to agriculture and a very serious one. How are the horses to be kept at work, the cows to be milked, the sheep tended, and the folds pitched? What head carter would tolerate the worry of the continual change of hands which would be required to allow the boys time for going to school It would be sure to lead to such a disaster as these: in turning a team at harrow on the headland the new hand would get the horses overlegged, the harrows would be turned over, and perhaps a 100 guinea horse crippled. The cowmen would have to face similar difficulties. If it were possible to obtain strange hands to release the boy on the appointed school days, which I very much question, even then the cows would not give all their milk down to strangers or to rough and clumsy treatment."
There, again, is the same principle. Now I come to the building trade. The Institute of Builders have considered this question, and have sent me four brief resolutions. The first is,"Mr. D. S. Taylor next called attention to the position in which they would be placed by the new Education Bill in respect of agriculture. He thought that it would be a great hardship to take lads from the land to attend classes from fourteen to eighteen years of age, when there was so much work to be done in country districts, and would inflict hardship not only upon employers, but also upon the parents of the lads. He moved a resolution, which was read by Mr. Prothero, to the effect that the Education Bill proposals that boys should attend school from fourteen to eighteen years of age would inflict great hardship on agriculturists and that local authorities be allowed discretion and powers in the matter of the selection of boys."
The second is,"The Committee is in favour of the provisions of Clause 10 of the Bill being confined to young persons up to the age of sixteen years."
The third is,"That such attendance should be at the cost and expense of the employer, only when the young person is a duly indentured apprentice. The Committee would regard it as an injustice and inequitable that employers should be called on to pay wages for school time in working hours with no certainty of the lad remaining in the same employment and no control over his continuity of service."
The fourth is,"That the compulsory attendance of young persons in the building trade up to the age of eighteen would be disastrous to the trade and generally impracticable."
I next turn to the weaving trade in Yorkshire. My authority there is a Member of this House, the hon. Member for the Radcliffe Division (Mr. T. Taylor), one of the few men who have put in pratice a great principle, which has done an enormous amount in his own business to unite the interests of employers and employed, instead of merely talking about the subject in this House, as is done elsewhere. At the annual meeting at "which the co-partnership dividend was announced the other day at Batley, he said:"That if the Bill is elected without amendment in this particular its operation will of necessity result in very few lads entering the building trade at all."
I have given the House several of the views of the Federation of British Indus-trios. In their report their main conclusions are—that whole-time or part-time from fourteen to sixteen for selected children would give a far better and more valuable education than the scheme of the Bill; that it ought to be voluntary; certain provisions should be made to make it worth while for parents to let their children go to these extension classes, and university or higher technical education should be provided again for the selected best of those who have had this further education after the age of fourteen. The builders, as the right hon. Gentleman will see, consider that there should be continuation education only as an adjunct to apprenticeship, and for apprentices, and in that case they consider that it would be fair for the master builders to whom these boys were apprenticed to pay the wages of the boys, as they do, and that particularly while they are doing this particular course of work. I may refer briefly to one financial provision of the Bill. It is proposed, under Clause 7 of the Bill, to repeal entirely the provisions of Clause 2 of the 1902 Act, limiting the rate that can be raised by the education authority for higher education to 2d. in the £.Personally, I can see no reason for asking the House to give a blank cheque for any cost that may be incurred for the arrangements outlined under the Bill. In the Act of 1902 we have these words:"The Bill provides that all children shall go to school full-time up to fourteen years of age, and from fourteen to eighteen years of age they shall receive tuition for eight hours a week during forty weeks in the year and attend school in the daytime. I am strongly in favour of some such measure, but for various reasons would prefer at present to allow children to work half-time from fourteen to sixteen, and that after that age promising children whose parents could not afford to educate them further should continue their education, even at a university, at the expense of the State. The plan of having young people from fourteen to eighteen away from school four days a week, for two hours each day, is impracticable. Half-time would be in all respects much better."
Here we have it already provided that, in certain cases, a higher rate than 2d. can be imposed, and I can see no reason for granting unlimited authority to raise any amount of money that may be considered necessary by any local authority. There are some other grave objections to this Bill which, I think, are deserving of consideration. It is pointed out by the Newsagents' Association that Clause 13 of the Bill means the entire abolition of the delivery of morning newspapers by newsagents. I do not know whether Members of the House think that this will be popular with the public, or, apart from that, whether there is any real objection to properly constituted employers, employers who have regular places of business, employing a boy for an hour or two in the morning every day of the week to deliver to regular customers their newspapers. It would entirely prevent my getting any newspapers in the country, because I am doing something which, under this Bill, I believe, would render me liable to a heavy penalty. I actually have the audacity to let a little boy who is attending the school within a hundred yards of my house carry two newspapers —a heavy load—each morning on his way to school, and for that service, which is worth a great deal to me, he gets two or three shillings a week, which I have no doubt is not unacceptable to his parents. I cannot see what possible harm it does the boy, but, under the strict provisions of Clause 13, the delivery of newspapers by children of school age is prohibited. [An HON. MEMBER: "No; it is up to twelve!"] I think that the hon. Gentleman is wrong, but perhaps that is really a Committee point. There are two provisions in Clause 13 which I consider, when read together, practically mean the abolition of the delivery of morning newspapers by the newsagents. The Actors' Association have just had their annual meeting. Sir J. Forbes Robertson pointed out that this same Section will prevent the production of many of Shakespeare's plays and Sir James Barrie's plays, and will not serve a profession which has provided such a complete, I may say such a perfect, education for children who are training for the stage as is provided by the actor managers of this country. The provisions of Clause 13 will deny to future generations the complete theatrical education which has produced our great actors and actresses in the past. I find, again, that the British Medical Association objects to Clauses 18 and 19 of the Bill as introducing fresh complications in an already hopelessly complicated state of affairs with regard to the inspection and attention which have got to be devoted to children under various Acts already in force. They point out that already no fewer than nine different professional men may be attending a single family under different Acts of Parliament. They point out that most of the boys between sixteen and eighteen years of age would be insured persons, and that the new health proposals of the right hon. Gentleman not only introduce a fresh complication and an overlapping with the health provisions of the Insurance Act, but that they are going to be a positive barrier to dealing with the whole of this question of the health of the people on broad and comprehensive lines. I was told the other day that all the religious denominations of this country were agreed to this Bill. That is not the fact The Catholic Federation are strongly opposed to it. They object to the abolition of dual control, as it is called, and the restriction of religious instruction and teaching which is imposed in many Clauses of the Bill. In face of that, is it to be contended that this is a non-contentious Bill that can go easily through this House even in a time of war? The Bill, in my opinion, puts the cart before the horse. It provides for compulsory attendance at school before it provides for the provision of teachers trained on new lines, men of wide outlook on life, and really competent to teach and mould the characters of these young persons who are no longer children. The promoters of the Bill should provide higher teaching classes altogether, as a provision for teaching, before they attempt to pass legislation calling upon parents throughout the country to send their children to this advanced instruction. In most of our country schools now children between the ages of twelve and thirteen, if they have anything above the average intelligence, are merely doing repetition work. To keep the children there under some teacher, frequently a female teacher of very limited capacity and outlook on life, for another year, to the, age of fourteen, simply means an addition to this endless repetition. I consider that the provision of compulsory attendance in a continuation school should obviously follow, and not precede, the setting up of these schools and the provision of the people competent to give technical instruction. The scheme of the Bill is obviously framed by educationists, but I think that it misses the real aim of education. The acquisition of knowledge is no end in itself. It is only of value if it can be made of real use to the individual To start the continuation schools set up by the Bill with the limited attendance of 320 hours a year can only tend to produce, so far as it will produce anything, 100 percent. of people more or less ill-qualified to come forward as foremen and managers in business. Certainly it will not make that class of people, to whom in the old days, men were ready to take off their hats—the men who were masters of their trade. You cannot make such men by forcing a Rhondda ration of education on every child up to eighteen years of age. You will make prigs of the young persons, not tradesmen or housewives. You will produce not what you want most, a divine discontent, but a discontent likely to be disastrous, and 75 per cent. of these young persons will find that, although they have been trained for certain careers, there is not room for them in those careers in such large numbers. The problem before us now arises from the minute sub-division of all our great manufacturing processes, so that each person engaged is assigned a particular task. Take, for instance, shipbuilding; to-day a man is engaged in driving in one rivet after another with a pneumatic or electric hammer. But his industry in no way bears comparison with the work of building wooden ships in olden days. If you are going to have a Bill that will really deal with education and correlate it to industry and make it possible for the present-day youth to become more useful and more contented members of society, you want to find a substitute for the apprenticeship system, and you want to assist that system so far as it remains. This Bill does not do that. I cannot find any Clause which deals with providing employment for the children after you have educated them. Clauses 13, 14, and 15 provide penal prohibitions with regard to certain classes. But where are the corresponding Clauses to provide for bringing the employer and the educated persons in contact with one another? There is no Appointment Board set up, no Central Bureau where people can go and find out what these young persons are qualified to do best. I do not see any sign in the Bill, from beginning to end, that this particular Question has been considered from the point of view either of the industry of the country or the real lasting life interest of the persons to be educated."Provided that the amount raised by the council of a county for the purpose in any year under this Act shall not exceed the amount which would be produced by a rate of 2d. in the £, or such higher rate as the county council, with the consent of the Local Government Board, may fix."
I rise to second the Resolution, and I do so not because I think it unnecessary to introduce an Education Bill at this moment, but rather on account of what the Bill lacks, not because of anything contained in it. The Government had an opportunity on this occasion such as has never been presented before in the whole history of the country. They had selected as their Minister of Education a man not drawn from the ranks of Parliament, but one chosen by reason of his reputation outside. That reputation was great enough to have enabled him to obtain a free hand with the universal consent of this House, and, I believe, of the whole country, in drafting a bold and comprehensive system of education such as would have provided once and for all the means of putting this country on an equality, or even a possible superiority, in competition with the other countries in Europe. But I regret to say that the Minister for Education has not done that. He has failed by virtue of that same adherence to negative qualities which prevails in this House, and which makes Ministers on every occasion follow the rule admitted in times of peace, but which for a country fighting for its life, as this country is, must result in disaster. It is the system of wishing to keep in sight of old landmarks, to cling to routine, to keep within grooves, to off-shoulder responsibility by being able to quote precedents for what is being done. In unprecedented times, in times of war, when the future is being prepared, when we, the life of this country, as of all countries in Europe, must be lived not only on another scale, but judged by different standards from those which have prevailed in the past, that system will not hold. The Minister for Education has had an opportunity, in fact, such as was offered to Wilhelm von Humboldt in Prussia, in 1808, when the fortunes of the German States were at a low ebb, but when facilities were given him to lay the foundation of their future greatness and power. He remained in office less than two years, but he succeeded in endowing Germany with a system of education which, though it was far from perfect—marked, indeed, by manifest faults—has, nevertheless, during the intervening time enabled that country to rise to a position of dominance in Europe. That system of education prepared the way for the peaceful penetration of this and various other countries in Europe by Prussian trained men—by experts. Remember that long before this the Germans invaded this country, not by force, but by the invitation of men engaged in manufacturing businesses or industrial works. That invitation was extended to them because they had trained minds and were the best capable of carrying on successfully the industries which were being set on foot. I could cite hundreds of instances of that. I have for many years paid express attention to the subject in order to trace the influence and development of science throughout the whole course of civilisation, so as to show that our modern civilisation, as distinguished from that of the Greeks, really rests upon the basis of science, and that it is the development of scientific methods, new discoveries in science, and new inventions following those discoveries as corollaries which have prepared the way and formed the woof of all that distinguishes in as far as there has been any advance over modern civilisation from that of the Greeks. It is precisely in that feature that the education of this country is weak. I could mention hundreds of instances, but I will only cite one, and that is in respect to the famous discovery of aniline dyes. It is usually represented in this country that the dye was discovered by Perkin, and that the secrets of this discovery were robbed from him and from this country by the Germans, who, having filched the product of his mind, profited by setting up industrial works to use it. The story is not quite that. It was a notable discovery of Perkin, but it was only one link in the general chain, and there were successive links added by German chemists, and particularly in bridging the gap—and here is a point on which Edison has laid stress in bridging the gap between scientific discovery and the practical application that makes the discovery of commercial value. It was the Germans who, by a series of discoveries, some of them quite as important as that of Perkin himself, were able to finally establish this great industry. It was not a case of Germans stealing English ideas, but rather an instance proving in a striking way the value of science, showing how theoretical ideas, if truly based, ultimately find their outlets in their industrial realisation.
Sometime near the beginning of the War I consulted a great electrical engineer as to the state of the engineering profession and all that depended upon it as affected by the War, and he astonished me by giving me a list of all the scientific fabrics and industrial works dependent upon that scientific under structure which has been almost monopolised by the Germans, not because such was the desire of this country, but because by their superior training the Germans were able to secure the markets. They succeeded because they could bring the matter to a practical test by showing that they could supply what was wanted in this country either of equal quality at more cheaper rates, or at the same price but of better quality. Much the same story can be told selecting each great feature of industrial enterprise which ultimately depends upon science. Everywhere the Germans have been found to develop to a higher degree their scientific and technical education so as to get the whip hand, and they have in consequence reached the high level which they now occupy. What is required now is not some tinkering with the machine as it at present exists, not a mere bettering here and there, or rendering more efficient of the system that now prevails. I say that the Minister of Education, with the great problem before him, and recognising his possibilities, should have struck out an entirely new line, one which, recognising the part education is going to play in our national life—a far greater and more important r61e than has been assigned to in the history of the past—he should have realised that any kind of economy in this way would be not only weak but in the end ruinous. We have reached such a condition of affairs that we are spending £6,000,000 on war daily, while education has hitherto been starved on a mere pittance; further, if twenty years ago such a scheme of education had been struck out, it seems quite possible this War might have been avoided, because the conditions which produced it would never have come into existence. I should like to see the right hon. Gentleman follow this Bill with another if it be not too late. I should like to see him bring in a Bill which would deal, not with the present system, but would strike out for a revision of the educational curriculum. I should like to see the right hon. Gentlemen have in his mind that there must be a free path from the first rudiments of education up to the highest pinnacle of research work at universities. The whole system of that education should be liberalised on the one hand, and on the other hand adapted more nearly to the requirements of modern life, and when the highest pinnacle of research work of all kinds is reached it should not be merely endowed with money, but a system should be organised so that scientific research could be directed, stimulated, and encouraged. That is being found possible in Germany, and to some extent in France, in application to matters which seem most recalcitrant to any kind of organisation. A great French mathematician told me that Germany had got so far in her system of education that she was able to organise even the study of higher mathematics, and to set on foot means of stimulating research in that recondite and almost intangible branch of science. I give that merely as an instance. Another great French scientist recently unfolded to me a plan which he had worked out, but which he had dropped on account of want of encouragement—that meant simply want of money—for dealing with the problem of tuberculosis in the most scientific way and most effective manner. He believed that it would have been possible to declare definitely that, within a certain limit of time ho could eliminate that disease as effectually as leprosy, which ravaged the populations of the Middle Ages, has been removed from our society. 5.0 P.M. I will not now labour this theme, but I thought it well, at any rate, to bring forward these main points as an indication—not bearing so much upon this present Bill—as an indication to the mind of the Minister of Education that he should seek possibly another chance if the Government would, as I believe it would, afford him an opportunity of bringing in an Education Bill No. 2 to deal with this larger and greater aspect of the question. That is to say, a Bill which would deal also with the universities, which would not limit itself merely to the system of administration, but would boldly tackle the whole question of the curriculum of the university, so as to mould and develop that curriculum in such a way as would be most valuable for the needs of modern society. What I would like eventually to see would be that not only the universities as at present constituted should be remodelled in that respect and reformed, but that there should be superimposed, above all the present universities, a great national university, covering the whole scope of intellectual life, and directed to the purposes which a university should fulfil. That would mean that the university would be the intellectual centre, the director, governor and leader of the whole national life, and would so conduct its functions that whatever ability, talent, or genius there might be found, even in the lowest ranks of society, should be saved, nourished, and fostered, and led up step by step to the highest offices, and be made available for the service and advantage of the whole State. So there are two main points which in this brief style I have indicated, rather than thrashed out. One is that in a democratic way there should be a free draft from the lowest to the highest with respect to the individual, so as to give every boy in this country, whether he be the son of a duke or the son of a dustman, an equal chance. That will be dealt with, I believe, by my hon. Friend below me (Mr. Whitehouse). That is one aspect, but that is not all. The other I regard as equally important, namely, that the system which at present prevails even in what is called the higher education of the universities is defective at the present time and will be found inadequate to the new development which will follow from this War. If this country is to maintain its level with the great countries of Europe, and particularly with Germany, it must recognise these facts and must remodel the whole character and scope, particularly of scientific education, and must maintain that free draft I have spoken of from the lowest and most elementary education to the highest, so that step by step and ultimately the universities will be the intellectual leaders, and finally the great national leaders, of the country.The hon. Member who has just sat down has indulged in an ambitious, if a somewhat hazy, sketch of what he would devise as an Education Bill. I presume he has in the depths of his own mind seen some relevance in this to the discussion of this practical education measure, but I think even he will find it difficult to believe that he has contributed to the realisation of his ideal by moving the rejection of a Bill which is intended to go a very long way in realising some of his ideals. The right hon. and gallant Member for Camborne (Mr. Acland), who spoke first in this discussion, told us that he had but a few months' or one or two years' connection with the Department. I am afraid I stand somewhat in contrast with him in this respect, because my connection with educational administration is now very nearly half a. century, during which I have been brought into contact with the inception and gradual development and fulfilment of most of the educational schemes of legislation that have come before Parliament. I welcome, after all these attempts—some of them no doubt faulty and mistaken—the advent of the President of the Board of Education into the field. He has taught me a lesson which old men ought to learn, namely, not to be the praiser of the time spent when we were boys. I do not know, when I look back upon my days at Oxford, that I should have been able to pick out anyone who, having obtained a foremost place in academic research, having gained for himself there authority and fame, could have stepped from that circle and showed himself by marvellous intuition as an adept in administration and with an instinct for political life. I welcome his advent, and I disagree entirely with the views put forward by the hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Peto). Of all times and of all proposals this Bill is necessary, and it is necessary without delay. I do not listen for one moment to those poor excuses, pusillanimous excuses, about the accidents of the political situation, or this or that condition which is present and which might induce or persuade us to delay and not to take up with vigour this task. We are fighting through tears, through strain, through anxiety, and through blood to preserve the inheritance of our children, and it is an equally imperious duty to teach them to rise to the responsibilities and opportunities of that inheritance which we arc defending. Of course, there is one condition, and one condition only, which can make us take up this task with hope and confidence. We lay our foundation in the full hope and belief that victory is to be ours in the end, and if we are to face defeat, then the edifice which we raise upon that foundation will crumble to dust before our eyes, or, to change the metaphor, the fruits of the seed we have sowed will be as husks in our mouth. We are buying and selling as the Romans did, the ground on which the Punic camp was pitched outside the walls of Rome, and with the same confidence which they felt. We are laying out the plans and building the highway for our children and our children's children which will be theirs when we have won it for them and for civilisation and humanity. We are planning out a new scheme of education in which I heartily wish my right hon. Friend success.
There can be no better way of teaching ourselves what we can and may do than by being taught by the errors of the past. If failure leads to success, then we have sown such abundant seed of mistake as should assure a full harvest of achievements I will not keep the House very long, I assure them, but I do think they, will not find it altogether uninteresting if an old man, just as rapidly as he can, sketches some of the errors which even within his own experience have occurred, and the lessons we may learn from them. First of all, we began our Education Grants nearly eighty years ago. When we did begin to give maintenance Grants, in 1846, we offered at first augmentation Grants which were to increase teachers salaries. It was not a bad plan at all. The pioneers who built up the system were not unwise, and did not lack foresight in their schemes, and the old augmentation Grant, developed in 1846 and subsequent years, had a great deal of sound sense, as it was based on the central truth of sound administration, "Increase your teacher's salary and improve his position and you go far to improve the school." But we changed all that for good or ill. Newer and mostly more modern ideas came forward. Mr. Robert Lowe, afterwards Lord Sherbrooke, devised a hard and fast scheme of what was called the Revised Code. Hon. Members who are here may remember the battle royal about the Revised Code. It split the country into two camps, although. I am glad to say that Scotland managed to postpone its operation for ten years. I remember very well the words of Mr. Robert Lowe when he introduced and defended his Code. He said:Was there ever a more degraded view of education or one which dragged it down more effectually to the level of the ledger and the balance book? But it was too attractive to the official mind; it made it too easy to deal with any difficult problems for the official readily to abandon it. I remember how we used to turn over sheet after sheet of these result papers with places marked with the names of the poor scholars who were contributing sixpence or fourpence by passing in one or more of the three R's. When I became permanent head of my own Department I am glad to say that my first aim, and it was my consistent aim, aided by my political chiefs, was to break down that system. Others have carried this work on more powerfully since my day, until now there is very little left, and I hope the last is going to be seen of it under the auspices of my right hon. Friend. Let us take another case is which the baleful effect of the Revised Code was seen. We tried to bring in some higher education beyond the beggarly elements. How did we try to do it? By inventing a long list of specific subjects which we expected these poor boys to pass as a means of gaining some additional Grant, and we actually imagined that these boys wore to be advanced in higher education by passing little snippets of problems in physiology or chemistry, learned by rote. I ask the House to consider another point, in which we have been sadly inconsistent, and it is concerned with the big question of compulsion. We tackled that very slowly and very unwillingly. We began it partially, as if we would have liked to drop it, but we did it without any very effective result, and at first with no very firm conviction of its right. I am convinced that if I could recall the men mostly concerned with the drafting of the Act of 1870 they would assent to what is my impression at this distance of time, namely, that they advocated compulsion then because they thought and hoped that compulsion would within a few years make itself unnecessary. I am sorry to say that has not been the case. I do not think that compulsion at its best is a satisfactory system, though I do not see how you can get rid of it. It would be well if we were able to make our system of education such as will attract pupils to the schools of higher education, and by emulation rather than compulsion. Yet the more you make education attractive and healthy for a large number, the greater will be the temptation to the residue to seek the higher wages which an increased demand for labour may bring about. I do not see how you can altogether abolish compulsion, but let us try that compulsion as far as possible is kept for those for whom penal methods are necessary among the residuum to whom emulation makes no appeal. Care should be taken to see that a better class of feeling is produced among parents in favour of education and the development of their interest in the school. Though it may be blameworthy, at all events it is natural to human nature to become irritated and to resist what is in the nature of compulsion. Many parents are ready and willing to do spontaneously what they would regard as irksome and irritating were it imposed upon them by compulsion. They would be willing at the beginning, and readily acquiescent to do that which under compulsion they instinctively resist when they are told by the law, "You must do It." In the old days, notably in Scotland, the ordinary peasant would have viewed with astonishment any request that he must send his boy to school, for he always did what he considered to be necessary in regard to the education of his children. It was quite common in the old days to hear the complaint that such and such a village had established a good school, and the question was pressed, "Why should there not be a school in our village?" But as the years passed and new conditions obtained the complaints of parents became more frequently taken up with remonstrances about interfering with their freedom and by forcing the attendance of their children at school. Natural repulsion from compulsion had begun to operate. There is another serious error to which I wish to refer, and I would point out that the right hon. Gentleman cannot think that he will pass a Bill of this sort by merely ignoring the difficult problem of religious teaching Up to 1870 the principle which prevailed was that a school, in order to get a Grant, must be in connection with some recognised religious communion. That was not so foolish as it seemed, for no school was actually excluded, and of course the conscience clause always prevailed. Then we turned our backs upon religion and asked no questions about it, permitted no inspection of it, and scrupulously avoided any mention of it. Then we had the "Cowper-Temple" Clause, which was meant for an Eirenikon, but was a poor device, and became a token not of union but of dissension. Those who liked that new scheme of religious teaching tried to prove how much it could embrace, and how far it went to meet denominational requirements. Those who did not like it tried to prove how jejune it was, and how much it was cramped and confined I think we have pursued this view in a rather too logical manner, instead of looking at the practical realities of the ease. I am ready to wear the white sheet myself. I have fought for the principle of denominational education myself. Perhaps I have fought it too hard; I think it was a logical position, but I am quite ready to meet my opponents half way in regard to it. As I said the Cowper-Temple Clause became a new bone of contention, some being utterly discontented with it, while others desired to widen it more and more by giving it a practical and liberal interpretation. But surely a new and fairer scheme may be devised if we could come to some compromise. Have we not been too much bound by the logical aspects of the question and by abstract theories, rather than the really existing conditions? I may have erred in my support of the theory, but I am honestly anxious now to meet my opponent half way. Surely we ought now to come to some practical conclusion. Ninety-nine out of every hundred men in this country are convinced that a great element in the shaping of character must be derived from the religious motive Perhaps also, if not ninety-nine out of every hundred, yet a very large proportion agree on certain fundamental principles of Christianity. Is it not possible to give a full and free chance to those who desire to come to some compromise, and to find a common ground between denominational and un denominational teaching? Can we have something like an inter-denominational teaching which would give us that fundamental and important religious element on which there is common agreement and which would do so much to shape character. On one point I insist more than upon any other, and it is vital to the success of the plan, that this religious teaching must be in the hands of the teachers. I am not going to agree to any system which would bring interlopers into the school to supersede the teachers. I wonder what the old schoolmaster in Scotland would have said in days gone by if anyone had proposed to him, "You may teach Latin, Greek, mathematics, but you must not open the Bible or say a word about that." Above all, I say, trust your teacher. The more you trust him the- more tactful and fore bearing he will be. You will find no good teacher who will do his work properly unless he has command of the whole of the elements that will go to build up the character and shape the intellect of the children. I have dealt with some of the errors in the past. We have been inconsistent, and we have been wrong on some, points, but there is one point upon which we have never been right and that is in our treatment of the teaching class. From the first, in this country, as in other countries also, it seemed to be thought that the teaching class must consist of people who were a sort of animated missionaries filled with an enthusiasm which could do without that ordinary sustenance which is commonly given to members of other professions. That is a mistake which we have constantly pursued. We have, as Scott somewhere said, "treated the schoolmaster as we would treat the deerhound. We have kept him starved that he may be more alert to bring down the quarry." Since 1834 our Grants have been increased a thousand-fold. When I speak of the increase in Grants as a thousand-fold, I am not using rhetorical words of exaggeration, but I am speaking with almost mathematical precision, because we pay now just about as many millions as we paid thousands in 1834. How much of that money has gone to the teachers? Possibly we have increased their pay about three times and no more. But that just about compensates for increased cost of living. I claim for the teacher that it is essential to improve his position if we are to have good education, and I submit that discontent among the teachers is a source of serious social danger. My right hon. Friend the Minister of, Education has opened up a new prospect by the scheme he has submitted. What should be the elements of that scheme? First and foremost, you must have a good teacher. That is the central feature of success. Secondly, there must be freedom and initiation, and the teacher should not be cribbed, cabined, and confined within fixed and uniform rules. A school left to itself to make its own way may be bad, but a school which is subject to all kinds of rules and regulations must certainly and inevitably be bad. Thirdly, I trust my right hon. Friend will be able to do a great deal to encourage the continual and wakeful interest of the parents in the education of their children. Without that you can do nothing. They must feel that the school is their own school. Do not try and drag the pupils too far away from their own. Light up in the school a lantern to be a centre of light and attraction to the parents. If you associate them with the school in its daily life, and if they feel a lasting interest in the progress of their young children, you have gained much. Do not entirely turn away what used to be, in the old days, so very useful to education, and that is a little preparation for the school at home. Highly modernised as our methods have become, I am not sure that it is not a very useful element that the boy should bring home some lesson, some story from school, some account of what he is doing in the classroom, and get, it may be, a little kindly help from his parents in preparing his lessons. That is a part of education which ought not to be neglected. I would like to refer to one or two points on which I venture to utter a word of caution. While I am cordially in favour of the Bill, I still think there are one or two points a little open to objection. I think they are points of principle. The first is one which I have never seen noted in any discussion, and that is Clause 8, Subsection (3). In the whole history of our compulsion we have given the parent who is accused of not giving sufficient education to his child the right to appeal to a Court of Law to enable him to prove that he really has done so. Under this Clause and Sub-section that right of appeal is transferred from the Court of Law to the Board of Education. I know from experience that there have been vexatious and ill-judged decisions by magistrates, but I have always resisted any proposal to take this matter out of the hands of the Law Courts. I do think that the right hon. Gentleman is taking up a very dangerous attitude in proposing that the right of appeal now open to a parent is not to be to a Court of Law but simply to a local or central education department. I do not think we should lay down the principle that there is no other education to be got except within the four walls of a school, and I think that parents should have the opportunity of proving to a Court that they have in some special way given sufficient education. The second point about which I wish to utter a word of caution is the provision to impose a fine on the boy for non-attendance at school. Is that right? In the absence of goods the fine can only be imposed by imprisonment, and you do not intend to imprison. Another point on which I do not suppose I will have the sympathy of many Members is the provision in Clause 22 which proposes to abolish all fees in elementary schools. I think that is undue pedantry, and I do not see why a school which could relieve the rates in this way should not be allowed to do so. I hope that my right hon. Friend will not think that I am unduly captious in what I say. I wish him God-speed in his work. I think there is a happy prospect before him, and I think it is more than ever necessary to pursue it at the present time. Equality of gifts and equality of powers are impossible, but it is essential to have equality of condition, and you must establish it. I hope that this Bill will prove a solvent of class antipathies, and will open up a new era of freedom and elasticity of school life, a full career for the, teacher, and cement the nation by the way of enhanced character and enhanced intellectual standard, and at the same time of increased prosperity."It would be good either way. My scheme of paying by results and treating the little brains that come to school as so many counters that swell the Grant, by their individual passes, if it is costly, it will be efficient; if is inefficient, it will be cheap."
I should like to associate myself with a great deal of what the hon. Member who has just spoken has said. I desire to deal with two points raised by the hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Peto), who moved the rejection of the Bill. Those two points ought, I think, to be carefully considered. The first is that there is no mandate for this Bill. I submit, although this Parliament is old, and it may be technically true that there is no mandate for the Bill, that this is not a question of mandate, but that it is an emergency measure which it is the manifest duty of this Parliament to undertake. The second point he raised was that the continuation classes would be likely to give a sort of scrappy education which would breed—I do not know why he supposed so—revolutionary spirit and discontent. Anybody who thinks that education, no matter how poor, is more likely to breed discontent than no education at all, I would refer to revolutionary Russia with its 85 per cent. of illiterates. This Bill must necessarily demand sacrifices from all classes, and not only from taxpayers, but from the parents. I think these ought to be given cheerfully when it is remembered that this is a measure anticipating reconstruction rather than a measure of reconstruction. When one says "recon- struction" one means the period after the War not limited to the two, three, or four years which it may take to cover demobilisation and to get things on a new basis, but reconstruction looking forward a generation ahead. I think one of the strongest reasons why a large measure of this kind is necessary may be inferred from this fact, and one which nobody can deny. If one takes the male population of this country we shall find, I think, by the time this War is finished, that the male population represented by those born between the years 1876 and 1900 has been largely affected, with the result that in the decade from 1938 and 1948 there will be far fewer men between forty and sixty years of age, which are really the ages of command and stability, than there would otherwise be the case. When we get to the years from 1938 to 1948 we are coming into what will be a young man's world, and the strain of running this world, and this country, at any rate, will be much more upon youthful men than it is at the present time. Further than that, we have extended the franchise to males of a very youthful age indeed, and when you come to that critical period you will find that that youthful section will not be balanced, as at present, by numbers of people between the ages of forty and sixty.
If it was from the pre-war point of view necessary that we should improve our education, from the post-war point of view it is an imperative necessity to do so. As far as continuation classes are concerned, I would be prepared to make many sacrifices, and in fact, within reason, I think it is almost impossible to go too far within the next decade in preparing the younger generation to take up the unexpected duties which they will have to take upon themselves. I would submit to the right lion. Gentleman that our previous education had to the man in the street, who, like myself, is not a specialist in these matters, three capital faults or blots, which were referred to by the hon. Gentleman (Sir H. Craik). The first is that the education now between twelve and fourteen was destined to no particular end, and that it seemed to be rather devised to teach the child a certain number of mental tricks to perform and then no more. I hope that the provisions for gymnastic schools and physical development and so on will be developed on the lines of taking a certain amount of responsibility for moral and discipline between the school door and the door of the home. I think that is a very important point which is overlooked in the earlier education. The third point which has been referred to by every speaker is the miserable position of the teaching profession as a whole in this country hitherto. In the case of teachers in Government schools the profession has been a sort of blind alley, leading hardly anywhere at all. I have, if the House will forgive a personal reminiscence in my mind, the case of two men at this moment. They are two aged men who were responsible for giving to this country splendid colonists and two or three men who have risen from the ranks to the making of £2,000 or £3,000 per year, and magnificent artisans, farmers, and other splendid citizens. Those two men, village schoolmasters, who by their personality and splendid work and responsibility gave to this country so many splendid citizens, are now living each of them practically with a pittance in small labourers' cottages. Had those men been in any other profession I can see either of them a County Court judge or a district governor. I hope that this Bill will bring the teaching profession up to a proper level, and I hope I am not too revolutionary when I say that I trust eventually we may see the masters of colleges, provosts, and heads of many public schools, coming from the ranks of those who are teaching in the national schools. I hope my right hon. Friend may forgive a word of criticism. I have looked at the Bill as best I could in such time as I could find, and I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman has given quite enough scope to parental responsibility. I am not asking the right hon. Gentleman to allow the parent to blot the child's career, but, on the other hand, I do think that the parent should have a voice in the career and should have a chance of having a say as to the kind of career to which the child's education is going to lead. I think, if possible, the parent should have a say in that matter. I hope in this respect the right hon. Gentleman is not too much under the influence of what was said by Dean Swift. I feel that there is a certain influence in Gulliver's Travels which seems to run through this Bill as far as parents are concerned. In "A Voyage to Lilliput" Swift says:"Their notions relating to the duties of parents and children differ extremely from ours. For since the conjunction of male and female is founded upon the great law of nature in order to propagate and continue the species, the Lilliputians. … will never allow that a child is under any obligation to his father for begetting him or to his mother for bringing him into the world. Upon those, and the like reasonings, their opinion is that parents are the last of all others to be trusted with the education of their own children, am] therefore they have in every town public; nurseries where all parents, except cottagers and labourers, are obliged to send their infants of both sexes to be reared and educated when they come to the age of twenty months."
Dean Swift had no children.
Precisely, but I hope we are not so Utopian as Swift. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman's Utopia is not looking forward to a bloodless, soulless, hygienic, efficient, practical and trim system, where excessive taxation brings everybody to a single level, and an educational machine turns out, like so many sausages, lawyers and stevedores, flying-men and journalists, and so on, irrespective of the cries of the victims. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman does not look forward to that kind of situation, but, I think, he ought, in this Bill, to get some form of words which will harness to the coach of legislation that eternal and natural force of affection of a parent for his child, and interest in his child, and will make use of that force in every phase of the child's career while that child is under the influence of the State. I think the right hon. Gentleman would do well to introduce a Clause which would give effect, if possible, to that view.
There is one practical point to which I would like to draw the right hon. Gentleman's attention, and that is as to Clause 38, Sub-section (2). I have read it several times, and I confess that I do not quite know what it means, but I am told by others who have read it many times that they feel clear that that and the subsequent Sub-section may be construed as doing away with the Grants which are granted under paragraph 31 of the Regulations on account of the average attendance. I understand that the matter is a little open to doubt. It may be that, in the Utopian age, when this Bill has had its full effect, we shall have draftsmen so educated that they will draft so simply that possibly an average person can understand it, or possibly an average person like myself will be so highly educated that he will understand drafting. At any rate, I hope he will consider that matter, and the fears that it will arouse. With that small criticism, I wish the right hon. Gentleman every success in the measure he has brought forward.I should like at the outset to express to the President and the Permanent Secretary of the Board of Education the thanks of the local education authorities for the manner in which they met us in regard to the administrative portions of the Bill introduced in 1917. I am very glad, indeed, to say that, owing to their courteous and kindly consideration, we were, I think, enabled so to re-draft those Clauses that they will not now take up much time in this House. The hon. Membe