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Commons Chamber

Volume 104: debated on Monday 18 March 1918

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House Of Commons

Monday, 18th March, 1918.

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

New Writ

For the Borough of Manchester (South Division), in the room of Major Philip Kirkland Glazebrook, killed in action—[ Lord Edmund Talbot.]

Intermediate Education (Ireland)

Copy presented of Rules for application of the additional sum of £50,000 granted by Parliament for Intermediate Education in Ireland [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Local Government Board (Ireland)

Copy presented of the Heavy Motor Car (Amendment) Order, 1918 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Science Committee

Copy presented of Report of the Committee appointed by the Prime Minister to inquire into the Position of Natural Science in the Educational System of Great Britain [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Irish Teachers' Pension Rules, 1914 (Supplementary Rule)

Copy Presented of Irish Teachers' Pension (Supplementary Rule, 1918 (No. 2) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Supreme Court Of Judicature (Ireland)

Return presented relative thereto [ordered 14th March; Mr. Baldwin]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 31.]

Trustee Savings Banks

Copy presented of Twenty-sixth Annual Report of the Proceedings of the Inspection Committee for the year ended 20th. November, 1917, with Appendices [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 32.]

Ministry Of Food

Copy presented of London and Home Counties (Rationing Scheme) Order, 1918, Rationing Scheme Order Directions, Directions to Retailers of Meat other than Butchers' Meat, including Pork, Directions to Butchers, Directions to Retailers of Butter and Margarine, Directions to Self-Suppliers, Waste of Foodstuffs Order, 1918, National Kitchens Order, 1918, Freshwater Fish (Ireland) Order, 1917, Amendment, 1918, and Desiccated Cocoanut (Maximum Prices) Order, 1918, made by the Food Controller under the Defence of the Realm Regulations [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers To Questions

War

British Trade Agreements

3.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has information to the effect that Messrs. Babcock and Wilcox have made an agreement with certain companies in Spain, one of the features of which is that all plant, machinery, tools, and other materials needed for their engineering works shall be purchased if possible in Great Britain; and, if so, whether this feature can be encouraged and developed to the advantage of British trade?

I understand that an agreement has been concluded between Messrs. Babcock and Wilcox and certain Spanish interests for the creation of a large constructional company in Spain, and that one of the terms of the agreement is that the company should purchase in the United Kingdom all imported materials, plant, etc., provided that equal conditions of quality and price are obtainable.

I regard this condition as one of great importance to British trade, and trust that other firms, who may make contracts for industrial enterprise overseas, may see their way to securing the insertion in such agreements of similar provisions.

Propaganda (Enemy Countries)

6.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether propaganda in enemy countries has hitherto been conducted by a clerk in his Department; whether he will state the date in which this clerk began his duties in respect of such propaganda; whether the duties have now terminated, and, if so, on what date; if he will state whether the duties were discharged to his satisfaction; and, if so, why the change, if any, was made?

Propaganda in enemy countries, as elsewhere, was carried out by the Foreign Office until February, 1917, when the present Government constituted a separate Department for the conduct of propaganda. This was named the Department of Information, and was directly responsible to the War Cabinet.

Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to the statement of the Prime Minister that the duties which Lord Northcliffe is now fulfilling were discharged by a clerk in the Foreign Office prior to Lord Northcliffe's appointment?

I have given the hon. Gentleman all the facts. He can draw his own inferences.

Finland

7.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Great Britain has now recognised the Republic of Finland; and, if so, whether diplomatic relations have been or will be opened with Finland as a neutral State?

Is there greater hesitancy on the part of the Government to recognise a republic than to recognise a monarchy?

In view of the closer relationship now being entered into by Germany and Finland, is this matter receiving consideration—whether we should recognise the Finnish Republic?

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman thinks that closer relationship between Finland and Germany is an additional reason for recognising or for not recognising. I am not quite sure what he does mean.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that when a neutral State has close relationship with the enemy, it is also our best part to encourage close relationship, so that they shall not be permeated by enemy influence?

Cotton Goods (Exports To Denmark And Norway)

8.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affiairs what were the exports of cotton yarn and cotton piece goods to Denmark and Norway in 1913 and 1916, respectively?

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of BLOCKADE
(Commander Leverton Harris)

The total Danish imports for 1913 and 1916, to which I have annexed the imports for 1917, were as follows:

Cotton yarn and thread:—
19131,843 tons
19163,206 tons
19171,836 tons
Cotton manufactured goods:—
19134,810 tons
19167,013 tons
19174,796 tons

The total Norwegian imports were:—

Cotton yarn and thread:—
19132,017 tons
19162,769 tons
19171,922 tons
Cotton manufactures:—
19134,384 tons
19165,957 tons
19174,777 tons

I would add that the imports for 1916 and 1917 were covered by guarantees against their direct or indirect re-exportation to the enemy.

Food Supplies

Tea And Cocoa (Swedish Exports To Russia)

.

asked what were the exports of tea and cocoa from Sweden to Russia in 1915 and 1916?

No statistics are at present accessible to His Majesty's Government showing the quantities of these commodities exported from Sweden to Russia or to any other country.

Has the right hon. Gentleman any reason to suppose that a large amount of those exports were re-exported to Russia?

Tillage

11.

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture how many additional acres in England, Scotland, and Wales will have been brought under the plough by the end of this month?

It is impossible to state how many acres will be ploughed up by the end of the period mentioned, but if the hon. Member will repeat his question in about a month's time I shall hope to be in a position to give him the information he desires for England and Wales. I must refer the hon. Member to the Secretary for Scotland for information regarding that country.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of instituting a comparison between the three, or, I suppose, four nationalities, so as to make the element of competition come in?

Imported Fish

21.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he can state what arrangements have been made, in anticipation of the increased demands for fish, to import supplies of refrigerated fish from Canada and Newfoundland; and whether it is anticipated that the increased supply of imported fish will be sufficient to supplement the supply provided by our own fishing vessels, and will be equal to the demand?

The Food Controller has not yet found it possible to arrange for the regular shipment of frozen fish from Canada and Newfoundland, as all the available refrigerated tonnage from North America is at present required for more essential foodstuffs. In any event, it is unlikely that the total supply of fish that can be secured for home markets will be equal to the increased demand occasioned by the shortage of meat.

Arising out of the hon. Gentleman's reply, will he inquire whether recommendations regarding the supply of the necessary refrigerator machinery and buildings to carry this policy into effect were not made by the Fisheries Department of the Board of Agriculture more than eighteen months ago?

I will make that inquiry. My reply speaks of the available refrigerators.

Potato Crop (Ulster)

22.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that a few weeks ago his Department agreed with representatives of the Irish Food Control Committee, the Irish Potato Advisory Committee, and the Welsh and Liverpool Potato Purchasing Committees that 5,000 tons of potatoes should be sent weekly from the North of Ireland to certain districts in Wales and England; whether the farmers in Ulster were asked directly by the Government last year to increase the production of potatoes and were promised £6 per ton on the faith of the Prime Minister; whether acceptance of these potatoes is now refused, although some 10,000 tons have been purchased through the Irish Potato Advisory Committee in accordance with the express agreement referred to and are at present either held up in store or at the ports awaiting shipment; whether the officers acting on behalf of the Government in this matter have the authority of Lord Rhondda or any other responsible person; and if he will say what advice is to be now given to the Ulster farmers and to the Irish Potato Advisory Committee both in regard to the disposal of the Irish potato crop of 1917 and the extent to which the Government desire this crop to be grown in Ireland in 1918?

26.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if he is aware that the export of potatoes from the North of Ireland to England has almost stopped and that a very large quantity, bagged ready for shipment, are in consequence becoming damaged and unfit for use; and whether, seeing that quantities are still on farms waiting for purchase, causing disappointment and loss to the grower, he will say what means he proposes to take to remedy the feared loss of good food?

The hon. Member for Mayo is right in assuming that the Food Controller is responsible for the initiation of arrangements on the lines indicated in his question for absorbing the exportable surplus of Irish potatoes. These arrangements have enabled nearly 24,000 tons to be exported to this country in the last six weeks, whereas in the previous two months before the Ministry of Food intervened only 12,000 were got away.

The farmers in Ulster, as in other parts of the United Kingdom, were asked last season to increase the production of potatoes, and were guaranteed on certain conditions a minimum price of £6 per ton. That guarantee is being and will be observed. Owing to the accumulation of stocks in the hands of dealers in South Wales and the South-Western Counties of England the South Wales Potato Control Committee has found it necessary to ask for shipments from Ireland to be temporarily reduced, with the result that the Ulster warehouses have become congested and orders from the firms have been suspended. The accumulations in South Wales are being rapidly disposed of, and in a fortnight's time it is expected that considerably more than 5,000 tons weekly will be required by the two Purchasing Committees, in view of the fact that as soon as it became known that Ulster could send over more potatoes than South Wales and Liverpool could absorb, the Food Controller issued an Order which had the effect of prohibiting the import of any but Irish potatoes into seven counties in the South-West of England.

The Food Controller will be prepared to consider claims for compensation in respect of any losses which may be proved to be due to the above circumstances. The Ulster farmers and the Irish Potato Advisory Committee can rest assured that the whole of this season's exportable surplus will be needed, and that the Government desire to see a largely increased production of potatoes both in Ulster and elsewhere during the coming season.

Arising out of the hon. Gentleman's reply, may I ask him if he can state definitely, on behalf of the Government, that no loss will be inflicted on these farmers and the association which has brought the 10,000 tons of potatoes at the request of the Government to the market?

So far as losses may arise from shipping causes, for which the Government is responsible, my reply is to give the fullest assurance that that loss will not be suffered by the potato growers.

In order to reassure the potato growers in Ireland, and to help the people of Ireland to carry out the request of the Government, can the hon. Gentleman say, on behalf of the Food Ministry, that the farmers Who have produced potatoes in Ireland, and have potatoes available for sale of the 1917 crop, will receive the Government's guaranteed price of £6 per ton?

May I ask whether the hon. Gentleman wishes to qualify in any particular the guarantee of the Prime Minister given in this House on 2nd February, 1917, in these terms, "Potatoes we simply propose to guarantee for this coming season at £6 per ton"; or is the hon. Gentleman prepared to undertake for the Government that producers of potatoes will receive this guaranteed price?

I certainly do not wish to qualify any guarantee given on behalf of the Government, but to repeat my assurance that all who are covered by the guarantee can rest assured that no loss will fall upon them because of the failure of shipment referred to in the question.

Fish (Maximum Prices)

25.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he intends to fix a maximum price for fish when sold wholesale, and, if so, when it will be done; is he aware that in some markets the wholesale men have combined and are refusing to sell below the maximum retail price, thus ruining the retail traders' business; and what steps he proposes to take to stop this method of dealing with his fixed prices?

An Order fixing the maximum price of fish at each of the principal stages from the producer to the consumer was signed on 14th March, and will come into force on 25th March. I am sending a copy to the hon. Member.

Fish Prices (Scotland)

29.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether representations have been made to his Department by the retail fish trade of Scotland asking that they should be consulted before the new schedule of controlled prices for fish is issued; if so, is it the intention of the Food Controller so to consult them; in any ease, is the present maximum price for fish sold in wholesale quantity to be retained; and will a difference of 30 per cent. be fixed between wholesale and retail, so as to allow a fair "working margin?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and I regret that these representations were not received in time to allow of the consultation taking place before the completion of the new Order. The prices scheduled in the original Order have, subject to a few alterations, been adopted as to the retail prices in the new Order. The difference allowed between wholesale and retail prices is not less than 20 per cent. on the average, and the Order is believed, under present conditions, to leave a fair working margin for retail traders.

May we take it it is too late now for the trade to make representations as to the prices fixed?

Exports (Control)

53.

asked the Prime Minister what Minister was responsible in 1915 and the first eight months of 1916 for the very large and increased exports of essential foodstuffs to Scandinavia, Denmark, and Holland?

At the time referred to the control of exports from this country had not been fully organised, and it would be impossible to say that any single Minister was responsible.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that there is very great disaffection throughout the country on this subject; and can nobody be regarded as responsible for this most vital matter?

I have no doubt, if the House of Commons had thought it desirable to attach responsibility for what happened three years ago, that it would have done so.

Having regard to the fact that the country is suffering at the present time from this export, will the right hon. Gentleman give a day to discuss the question, and see that the person responsible is known to the country?

I have always said that I am willing to give time for the discussion of any subject which the House generally desires to discuss, but in my opinion it is much more important to discuss what we do now than what was done three years ago.

Agricultural Improvements (Ireland)

66.

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether any advances were made during the past year by the Board of Works for agricultural improvements in Ireland; and whether it is the present policy of the Irish Government to assist small farmers, particularly in the matter of increasing the national value of their holdings?

No new loans for agricultural improvements have been made by the Commissioners of Public Works since June, 1915, in view of the decision that in present financial circumstances such issues should be suspended during the continuance of the War and until further directions. A sum of £155 was issued in the current financial year in respect of loans sanctioned prior to such suspension. The special measures for securing an increase of food production in Ireland which are being taken by the Department of Agriculture include assistance to small farmers and allotment holders.

Agriculture (Soldiee Labour)

69.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the difficulty experienced in rural districts in making use of soldier labour by farmers who are unable to obtain food for them; whether the Army Council could devise some system by which rations could be provided for the soldiers who are engaged in agricultural work; and whether in Shropshire some soldiers have had to be sent back to barracks on account of this difficulty at a time when it is most important to get corn sown for this year's harvest?

:The Department are aware that difficulties are experienced in rural districts in obtaining food for soldiers engaged on farm work. Arrangements have been made with the military authorities by which supplies of tinned beef and biscuits can be drawn for soldiers who are migratory—that is, engaged with the Department's tractors or horse gang teams. It would, however, be impracticable to supply individual soldiers engaged on farms scattered all over the country with Army rations. In rationed areas the men should apply to local food control committees for the civilan ration card. In areas not at present rationed the local food control committees should be consulted.

Dogs

61.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the fact that in this country at the present time dogs consume a large amount of foodstuffs which could be more usefully applied to the feeding of live stock, more especially pigs, he will in the forthcoming Budget impose a substantial tax on all dogs which are not absolutely necessary for the purposes of trades of national importance?

62.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many dog licences were issued in 1913 and 1918 in the borough of Birmingham?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. I am informed that the number of dog licences issued in Birmingham for the year ended 31st December, 1913, was 42,309, and for the year ended 31st December, 1917, was 43,283. Figures for the present year are not yet available.

Mangolds And Turnips

19.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether his attention has been drawn to a resolution adopted by the County Dublin Farmers' Association to the effect that, having considered the prospects of root-growing for sale in the season of 1918 at the current control prices for mangolds and turnips, they have agreed that such roots cannot be produced at such prices; that for this reason the maximum prices must be increased without further delay, as the time for sowing has now arrived; and that before any other prices are fixed such bodies as theirs should be consulted; and whether, in view of the importance of having as much land as possible under root crops, this resolution will be favourably considered immediately, so that the producers may know how they are likely to stand in the matter before the time for sowing has passed?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The Food Control Committee for Ireland are in consultation with the Department of Agriculture on this matter, and will consult the County Dublin Farmers' Association before making definite recommendations to the Food Controller as to the fixing of prices for mangolds and turnips for the winter, 1918–19.

Sweets

23.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what ruling will be given to small shop-keepers who are wholly or nearly dependent upon the sale of sweets?

The answer is in the negative. This matter is under consideration, and a statement thereon will be made shortly.

Will the hon. Gentleman be able to make the statement before Thursday?

Tea

24.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether the Consumers' Council was consulted before the price of tea under the new Government scheme was fixed at 2s. 8d. per lb.; whether the actual all-in coat to the Government does not exceed Is. per lb.; if so, whether he will consider that the margin of profit between the actual cost to the Government and the price to the consumer should be reduced by at least 4d. per lb.; and will he say whether the Consumers' Council acquiesced in the liaising of the lowest grade of tea from 2s. 4d. to 2s. 8d. per lb?

The Consumers' Council was consulted about the. price of National Control Tea, but most of the items of cost which makes that price necessary were decided before the first meeting of the Council. The Council favours a price of 2s. 6d. a lb., but as the all in cost of the tea to the Government exceeds Is. a lb., and the duty amounts to another Is., it cannot, under present conditions, be sold at 2s. 6d. a lb. without loss. Lord Rhondda is considering the possibility of buying a cheaper tea after the 31st May, when the present contracts expire, and a further investigation is being made into the gross profits allowed to the trade. The answer to the last part of the hon. Member's question is that, with the introduction of the National Control Tea, the old system of three grades of tea has been abolished. National Control Tea consists of a fair average blend of all teas of the highest and lowest grades, and is sold at one price only. It should be remembered that under the old system the lowest grade tea at 2s. 4d. a lb. was frequently unprocurable.

If after 31st May only the cheaper tea is going to be sold, what is to become of the higher-class tea?

My answer has already announced what has become of the higher-class tea. The only change which will take place, if any, after 31st May is that under the new plan of national control—the tea might be sold at less than 2s. 8d.

Could not the Government reduce the price of this tea by remitting to itself the duty of Is. per lb.?

That might be addressed to the Government at large. I am not able at this moment to answer it.

Milk

27.

asked the Parliamentary to the Ministry of Food if his atten- tion has been called to the effect on farmers and milk dealers of the price limitations expected to come into operation on 1st April next; if he is aware that farmers in the West Riding estimate that it requires a pack of meal, which costs £3 3s. and 30 stones of hay, which, at 9d. per stone, amounts to £l 2s. 6d., to produce 36 gallons of milk, or a total cost of feeding stuff of £4 5s. 6d., which, with 12s. for labour, brings the total cost for food and labour to £4 17s. 6d. for 36 gallons of milk, and for this quantity of milk, at Is. 9d. per gallon, the farmer will receive only £3 3s.; if he is aware that the farmers complain that they are unfairly treated as compared with milk dealers, who are to be allowed to charge Is. per gallon over the wholesale price, which, after allowing 1d. per gallon for leakage, shows a profit, in the case of a milk dealer who, with the help of a girl, is said to be able to retail 60 gallons a day in Bradford, or 420 gallons a week at l1d. per gallon profit, amounting to £19 5s. a week on 60 gallons a day; and if he will make inquiries into this matter with the object, if the facts are as stated, of readjusting the prices so as to deal more fairly as between farmers and milk dealers?

The summer price of milk to the producer was fixed, with the approval of the Board of Agriculture, after careful consideration of the varying estimates put forward by farmers as to the cost of production. I am advised that the figures mentioned in the second part of the question are abnormal, as regards both labour and feeding stuffs. The dealer's margin of Is. per gallon is a maximum figure, subject to variation by local food control committees. In Bradford, for example, the margin of profit allowed for retail distribution in March is not l1d. but 5d. per gallon, and this has to include the cost of railway transport. I can assure the hon. Member that complaints by farmers of unfair treatment as compared with dealers are not more numerous than complaints by dealers of unfair treatment as compared with farmers. The recently effected adjustment in prices is thought to be fair to both sides, and it is not proposed to vary it.

Russia

10.

asked the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether a protest against the repudiation of Russian foreign loans and confiscation of the property of foreigners has been made by diplomatic representatives of the Allied and of neutral Powers to those claiming to be in authority at Petrograd; and, if so, whether any, and what, answer has been returned?

A formal declaration was signed by the representatives in Petrograd of all foreign Powers, and forwarded to the Commissary of Foreign Affairs stating that they considered decrees on the subject of repudiation of Russian State debts, confiscation of property of all kinds and other analogous measures as without force, and reserved to themselves the right to claim damages from the Russian Government at the time for all losses which these decrees might inflict on their nationals. As far as I am aware no reply has been returned.

Military Service

Mercantile Shipyardmen

15.

asked the Minister of National Service whether any men have been withdrawn this year for military service from the mercantile shipyards; and whether men are still being withdrawn?

Men engaged in occupations dealt with in the Schedule of Protected Occupations (MM. 130 Revised) who are available for recruitment, are not called up by the recruiting authorities from Admiralty or Ministry of Munitions firms until their names have been notified to the recruiting official concerned by the Admiralty representative, or munition area dilution officer, as the case may be. The Schedule affords complete protection to men engaged in certain specified occupations in hull construction and repair.

Royal Air Force

Aid Ministry (Accommodation)

16.

asked the First Commissioner of Works whether he is aware that much confusion and dislocation of work, with resulting inefficiency, is being occasioned at the Air Ministry by reason of the failure to readjust the accommodation necessary for the Department; whether anticipated readjustment has been repeatedly postponed; whether he realises that with spring approaching it is of paramount importance that the Air Ministry should be in a position to discharge its functions under conditions rendering efficiency possible; and whether he will devote serious attention to this matter, to which effect has in the Department been repeatedly promised to be given and as repeatedly postponed?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative; no readjustments have been repeatedly postponed, so far as my Department is concerned. I am fully aware of the paramount importance of the Air Ministry, and have given extreme personal care and attention to its need in the matter of accommodation, when its final requirements were made known to me. I cannot in any way admit that any delay whatsoever has occurred, so far as the accommodation question concerns my Department, nor have any promises been made which have not been carried out.

Apparently the hon. Member does not realise the magnitude of the operations which this question has involved. I may mention that, apart from the Kingsway premises which have had to be taken over, which involve the acquisition of premises occupied by about 160 business firms and the rehousing of three large Government Departments, I have acquired for the Air Ministry during the past few months the Covent Garden Hotel, the Metropolitan Water Board Offices, a large block of offices in Clement's Inn, the Savoy Mansions, fifty rooms in the Strand Palace Hotel, twenty bedrooms in the Constitutional Club, and a large temporary temporary structure on the roof of the Hotel Cecil.

Arising out of that answer, is not the real difficulty in the organisation of the Department, and would it not be better to reorganise the Department than to acquire more buildings?

In view of the urgency of the Air Minister's work in winning the War, ought we not to get right down, apart altogether from inconvenience to anybody, to getting efficient administration here?

Can the right hon. Gentleman assure us there is no truth in the statement that there has been delay in this thing due to the belief that he hopes himself to renew his spring offensive against the British Museum?

If any delay has taken place the hon. Gentleman has certainly not assisted, because he prevented the Air Board going to the British Museum.

Medical Service

43.

asked the Under-Secretary of State to the Air Ministry how far the arrangements for the medical care of the Air Service have been proceeded with; and what steps he intends to take to expedite the transference of Royal Army Medical Corps officers previously attached to the Royal Flying Corps to the Air Forces, so as to be under the direct control and administration of the Medical Administrator of the Air Council in this country?

The answer to the first part of the question is that the Medical Administrative Committee have met and have come to a number of decisions which are now being dealt with by the Air Council. The answer to the second part of the question is that the officers referred to will, in the first instance, be lent to the Air Force, and will be under the direct control of the Medical Administrator. When the conditions of service for medical officers who are to be seconded to the Air Force have been decided, those officers who are considered suitable will be seconded to the Air Force.

Shipbuilding

Housing Accommodation (Clyde)

30.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Central Billeting Board has presented a Report on the housing conditions in Clydebank; and, if so, what action he proposes to take to carry their proposals into effect?

Yes, Sir; the Central Billeting Board has presented a Report on the housing accommodation, not only in Clydebank, but on the Clyde in general. So far as Clydebank itself is concerned, I am advised that no immediate action is necessary for the provision of further housing accommodation in that district so far as shipyard labourers are concerned.

We have acquired, up to date, twelve hostels in Glasgow, estimated to accommodate 1,200 men. The weekly charge per man is about 23s., which includes breakfast, mid-day and evening meals, the terms being inclusive of everything except personal laundry charges, and luxuries, such as drinks and smokes, etc. Labourers who cannot find accommodation in Clydebank itself can more conveniently be accommodated in these hostels. I should add that a considerable number of men have also been accommodated in private lodgings.

I have confined by remarks to shipyard labour, and should my hon. Friend desire information regarding munition workers, perhaps he will address a question to the Ministry of Munitions on the subject.

Reduced Output (January)

32.

asked to what extent the reduction in output of the shipbuilding in January, reported by him, was due to the strike in the shipyards on the Clyde during that month which, to a large extent, brought construction to a standstill in that district; if, in order that injustice may not be done to yards on the North-East Coast and other shipbuilding districts where he is satisfied that every effort is being put forth, he will give separate statistics of falling-off for the principal shipbuilding centres; and if, in view of the manner in which the situation on the Clyde has been handled throughout, he will state what steps are being taken either to reconstruct or strengthen with expert control the Admiralty Shipyard Labour Department?

I cannot state the precise extent to which January's output was due to the labour disputes on the Clyde during that month. But undoubtedly they had a very serious effect indeed. I say this after making the most generous allowance for exceptionally bad weather and the effect of the holiday period.

The immediate cause of the trouble was the claim of piece-workers to be awarded a bonus in consideration of the bonus which had previously been awarded to the time workers. The. War cabinet decided to grant the piece-workers a bonus of 7½ per cent., and the bulk of the men resumed work towards the end of the month.

There was another dispute affecting a smaller number of men which had reference to riveting rates as fixed by the Committee on Production's award of 11th December, 1917. After discussion, an inquiry was instituted by the Clyde Shipbuilders' Association and the Boilermakers' Society, pending which the men in question resumed work.

My hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion that comparative statistics should be prepared showing output according to districts is already under consideration. We shall, however, enter upon such a comparison more for the purpose of stimulating the spirit of patriotic emulation, rivalry, and determination, than for the purpose of recrimination.

As regards the last part of the question, the Shipyard Labour Department had no jurisdiction, as I am advised, to intervene in the Clyde disputes of January. I am bound to say—and I watch the matter day by day—I think we owe a good deal to the Shipyard Labour Department—on the staff of which there is a considerable number of men experienced in ship construction and yard management and shipyard trade unionists—for its efforts in the direction of extending dilution, securing interchangeability, setting aside demarcation rules, and in a great many cases smoothing over difficulties in anticipation of trouble

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the information I have asked for in the first part of the question is in existence; and, if so, will he state why he does not give it?

The hon. and gallant Member must read my answer. I have most categorically answered every point raised in the question.

With all deference to the right hon. Gentleman's answer, will he say whether the information asked for in the first part of my question does exist; and, if so, will he give it to the House?

If the hon. and gallant Member means do I know the precise extent to which the reduction in output is due to the strike in the Clyde shipyards, I say that I do not know, and no one does, but I repeat that it had a very serious effect indeed, and I do not think I can carry it further than that.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a very great deal of irritation and friction is caused in shipyards by there being five departments interfering at the same time, and is he aware, that a sixth department is now interfering?

That is a question which could very fairly be discussed in the Debate on Wednesday. Obviously, I could not deal fully with it now. What I have done is to answer precisely the question on the Paper.

I do not think anybody could say definitely what is the precise effect.

Is not the delay largely due to the fact that the New Year's holidays cut into several days, the work being held up; and was there not several days of bad weather?

Naval And Military Pensions And Grants

33.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been called to the fact that, under the injuries in war compensation scheme now in force, the minimum pension for the widow of an officer in the mercantile marine under Admiralty employ who loses his life is £35 16s. 11d. a year, and that the allowances for children vary from £6 10s. 4d. to £13 0s. 8d., whereas the minimum pension to the widow of a sublieutenant, Royal Navy, is £100 a year with £24 per year additional in the case of each child; and whether it is proposed to withdraw the present scheme of minimum pensions and raise the pensions for officers and their dependants to at least the amount of the ordinary Service scale?

The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the latter part, the question of the practicability of apply- ing the Service scale to these officers, it is at present under the consideration of the Treasury.

Does the Department agree that there is no question of principle that this concession should be made to' the officers in the mercantile marine under the Admiralty, and that it is purely a matter for the Treasury to pay the necessary money?

I do not think it is quite that. The mercantile marine rates of pay—I do not want to prejudice the principle at all—are different from the naval rates, and there are questions of administration which will have to be gone into before we can arrive at a settlement which I hope will be an early one.

35.

asked the Pensions Minister whether he is aware that Mr. E. H. Vant, who was formerly an officer in the Lincoln Regiment and who was gazetted out of the Service and placed on pension on 31st March, 1916, was taken seriously ill with rheumatic fever on 8th May, 1917; that a letter was issued by the War Office authorising his admission to the Royal Herbert Hospital, Woolwich, and was sent to the Supply and Transport, who forwarded the same to the Eastern Command; that the Eastern Command in turn forwarded instructions to the A.D.M.S., Woolwich; that in spite of several telephonic communications no authorisation reached this officer that permission had been granted to undergo treatment at the Royal Herbert Hospital, Woolwich; that he had to pay for his own nursing and medical expenses; that upon his recovery on the 5th September, 1917, a telegram was sent from Woolwich as follows: "B/2575/917. A.A.A. I hold authority for you to be admitted to this hospital for further treatment. Kindly wire date and hour convenient for motor ambulance to fetch you here, please. Commanding Royal Herbert Hospital"; that this officer applied to the Ministry of Pensions asking that, in view of the negligence on the part of the A.D.M.S., Woolwich, they would grant him a refund of the money expended upon his treatment (about £73); and that a letter was received, dated 19th February, 1918, and signed by Lieutenant Eicholz, stating that it was regretted that the Ministry was unable to grant him any assistance; and whether, in view of these circumstances and the fact that authority to this officer to go into hospital miscarried, an inquiry will be instituted with a view to getting refunded to him the money expended by him upon his treatment?

Mr. Vant was invalided for neurasthenia in March, 1916. More than a year after his relinquishment of his commission he contracted rheumatic fever and the authorities of the Royal Herbert Hospital offered to admit him, although there was no obligation to do so, as the disability was not that for which he was invalided. The officer submitted a claim in respect of his expenses to the Ministry of Pensions, but the Director of Medical Services considered that the rheumatic fever could not be regarded as the result, either direct or indirect, of the neurasthenia for which this officer was invalided; and as under the Royal Warrant treatment is only provided for the disability which is the cause of invaliding, the claim was not one which could be dealt with by the Ministry. Needless to say, my Department were in no way concerned with any failure to admit the officer to hospital.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that a promise was made to admit this officer to the hospital, and that that promise was not carried out; and is he aware that this officer had to pay £73 out of his own pocket—surely the State should reimburse this sum, which was put upon him owing to the failure of the Department to carry out its promise?

There is no obligation so far as the Pensions Ministry is concerned. With respect to the latter part of the hon. Member's supplementary question, if the hon. Member will put another question I will make inquiries.

Can my hon. Friend say what authority there is in the Warrant for the statement that any disabled officer or man is not entitled to claim for any subsequent disease at any subsequent period for any further disability that arises?

The disability must be one arising out of the service. In this case the medical officer says it did not arise out of the service.

Can my right hon. Friend say that did not arise out of the cause for which he was invalided? Will he tell the House of any authority that he or the Government have for discontinuing to any soldier, officer or man, in any subsequent period a pension for any disability that can be attributable to the service?

38.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions whether any medical referees have been or will be appointed in Ireland for the purposes of the pensions administration in that country; if so, what are their qualifications; and can he indicate the medical men from whom applications might be received?

It is proposed to appoint medical referees in Ireland; the qualifications necessary will be the same as those required for similar posts in Great Britain. Any registered practitioner of substantial experience in general practice is entitled to apply. I have for some time been in negotiation with the Local Government Board for Ireland and with the National Health Insurance Commissioners (Ireland) with a view to making arrangements for these appointments and other matters, and a representative of the Ministry is very shortly visiting Ireland in this connection.

Will the representative of the Ministry see those medical men who have already made application for appointment?

I do not know that it will be possible to meet everyone who has applied, but that is one of the purposes of the visit.

What is the remedy of an Irish officer who, in the meantime, is dissatisfied with the assessment of his disability?

The local committee have got power to send them to any local practitioner and to pay for it.

54.

asked the Prime Minister whether any decision has yet been arrived at to grant an increase of pensions to old soldiers and widows?

59.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is now in a position to make any statement regarding the possibility of increasing the pensions now payable to old soldiers in respect of previous wars?

I will answer these questions together. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Pensions will be able to make an announcement at an early date.

Can the right hon. Gentleman expedite that answer? It is two months since he told me that the question was being considered.

In consequence of these questions, I have made a communication to the authorities concerned.

Has my right hon. Friend seen the speech of the Minister of Pensions, in which he says that he is prepared to stand or fall by the increase which the Treasury has now turned down, and will he say what he intends to do before the Adjournment Debate on Thursday, when the matter will be raised if it is not settled?

I have seen the report of my right hon. Friend's speech, and I have no doubt that, like every other Minister, he will be prepared to stand or fall by what he thinks is right if it is not done.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us before the House rises for the holidays?

77.

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether Lance-Corporal A. Gibbons, No. 18164, a soldier resident in London but now stationed at the Irish Command Depot, Tipperary, has recently lost his wife and been left with three children aged eleven, nine, and four years, respectively, and that the aggregate allowance payable to provide rent, food, and clothes for these three children is 19s. per week; and, if so, whether he will take steps to secure the amendment of the Warrant in such manner that children losing the benefit of separation allowance through the death of their mother may receive an additional weekly grant in lieu thereof?

Local war pensions committees have power to grant an allowance in a case where a soldier loses his wife and a relative or other person comes into his home and acts as guardian of his children. If the hon. and gallant Member will send me Lance-Corporal Gibbons' home address, I will communicate with his local committee.

Admiralty (Cabling Facilities)

34.

asked whether in 1915 or 1916 any directions were given by the trade division of the Admiralty permitting to certain firms priority in cabling; and, if so, if he will give a list of these firms to whom priority was granted and the dates on which instructions for such priority were issued?

I am informed that no general directions have ever been given conferring priority in cabling. When it has been necessary for firms to send cables on Government business, such cables have from time to time been expedited at the request of the Department affected. Each such case has been judged on its merits, first by the Department making the request, and then by the Chief Censor.

Artificial Limbs

37.

asked why officers are not supplied with a new artificial leg when one is needed, as is done in the case of non-commissioned officers and men?

An officer of the Army who loses a leg is fitted with an artificial one free of cost, and is given a wound pension of £100 a year, out of which he is expected to defray the expense of repair and renewal. In view of the misleading statements which have appeared in the Press, I may perhaps inform the hon. and gallant Member that the wound pension is in addition to retired pay, and that actually no officer who loses a leg in action gets less, in the aggregate, than £150 a year. The question whether it is possible to give military officers further assistance in the matter of artificial limbs is engaging my attention.

Increase Of Rent (Amendment) Bill

39.

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether the Government are considering the possibility of amending the Increase of Rent Mortgage Interest (War Restrictions) Act, 1915, with a view to raising the limit of rateable value of the houses protected, and preventing purchase from being made a ground for ejectment; and whether they propose to introduce legislation on this subject?

I may refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my right hon. Friend to the hon. Member for East Nottingham on Wednesday last.

47.

asked the Prime Minister whether the War Cabinet have yet come to a decision to amend the Act relating to the prevention of arbitrary ejectments from their homes of wives and children of soldiers and sailors who are serving their country abroad; and whether he can state when the amending Bill will be introduced to the House?

I presume that the hon. and gallant Member is referring to the Bill which was introduced in another place on 12th March, and will be taken in this House as soon as possible.

Will the right hon. Gentleman press it forward as fast as he can? The matter is very urgent.

I quite agree as to the importance of the matter. We shall do what we can and make what arrangements are possible in the matter.

Russian Subjects

40.

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether the Shoreditch and Bethnal Green Tribunals have protested against sending back wounded soldiers to the front while thousands of Russian aliens are allowed to walk the streets immune from military service; and is it intended to resuscitate the tribunal that dealt with such aliens, in order that, if fit for any form of military service and not possessing other necessary reasons for exemption, they may be forthwith set to work of national importance?

My right hon. Friend has not received information of protests of the kind stated by the hon. and gallant Member. The question of resuscitating the special tribunal to which the hon. and gallant Member refers must depend upon the decision reached by the Government upon the larger question.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this tribunal, when it ceased work, had more than 4,000 cases to deal with?

I am aware that it had a very great many, but, as the hon. Member knows, the whole conditions have changed.

45.

asked the Prime Minister whether the War Cabinet has now considered the position of Russians in the Army and in this country; whether any policy has been decided upon; whether Russian subjects are liable to, or free to offer for, National Service; if so, under what conditions; and whether Russian subjects in Britain may consider them selves as Allied or neutral aliens?

55 and 56.

asked the Prime Minister (1) whether, owing to want of co-ordination and overlapping of authority between the Local Government Board, the Home Office, the Ministry of National Service, and the Ministry of Labour, no policy can be decided on dealing with the employment of Russian males of military age in this country; will he say to which Ministry the solution of the question has now been entrusted; (2) whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction prevailing in parts of the Metropolis owing to the inability of the Government to either employ the 20,000 aliens of Russian nationality and of military age on work of national importance or deport them from the country; and will he say when the War Cabinet will come to a decision on the question?

I regret that I am unable at present to add anything to the answers which have already been given with regard to the position of Russians in this country. The whole subject is being considered by the various Departments concerned in all its aspects.

Cannot the right hon. Gentleman give us some indication whether Russians in this country are friendly aliens or neutral aliens? It is a matter which becomes of great importance to them in their daily life and avocations.

I have already said that I can give no more information than is contained in the answers that I have already given on the subject.

Petroleum

46.

asked the Prime Minister whether Sir Lionel Phillips, as Controller of the Mineral Resources Development Branch of the Ministry of Munitions, is in control of the arrangements for obtaining petroleum that may be under the soil of the United Kingdom; and, if not, in what authority these powers are vested?

The answer to the first part of the question is No, Sir. The Controller of Mineral Oil Production is responsible to the Ministry of Munitions for the arrangements for developing the supply of mineral oils from the deposits in the United Kingdom.

Can the right hon. Gentleman, the leader of the House, say when the House will be informed as to the course to be taken by the Government in respect of boring for petroleum?

It is rather difficult to make a statement without notice, but, as a matter of fact, I have been in communication with the gentleman who controls the business we intend to employ for this purpose, and I believe that a satisfactory arrangement has been made with him.

Is it proposed to introduce any legislation on the subject, and will any royalties be paid to the owners of the surface?

Obviously, the question does not arise in the way in which the matter is being dealt with at present. That was the reason that we took this course.

Can we understand from the right hon. Gentleman that the nation will not be bound to pay any royalties to any of the owners of the surface under which petroleum is thought to exist without Parliament having an opportunity of expressing an opinion on the subject?

My right hon. Friend knows that we had arranged in that way, and the question only arises because the particular firm had doubted whether they could go on with the work in that way. I understand the difficulty has been got over and the position is as it was previously.

Supreme War Council

48.

asked the Prime Minister whether the military operations in the Eastern theatres of war come under the supervision or control of the Supreme Allied Council at Versailles, in order to give the fullest expression to the doctrine of the single front and to obtain complete unity of action amongst all the Allied forces; and, if not, whether he can tell the House the reasons for not adopting this policy?

Science In Education (Committee)

50.

asked the Prime Minister when the Report of the Committee on the Place of Science in Education, presided over by the president of the Royal Society, will be published and available for the use of Members of this House?

The Report will be laid on the Table to-day and will be in the hands of Members as soon as it is printed.

Soldiers And Sailorsm (Emigration)

51.

asked the Prime Minister whether the distribution of leaflets by the Royal Colonial Institute among sailors and soldiers is done with the knowledge and consent of the Government; whether it is intended in these leaflets to give the sailors and soldiers to understand that each man migrating to the Dominions will have financial assistance from the Government up to the maximum of £500; and, if not, will he take steps to let sailors and soldiers know to what extent, if any, they will receive financial help from the Government when they migrate to the Dominions?

The Government are not concerned in the distribution of these leaflets, which are entirely unofficial. As regards the last part of the question this will be one of the duties of the emigration authority to be constituted by the Bill, of which notice has been given.

Does the hon. Gentleman think it right for leaflets of this nature to be distributed among soldiers and sailors, if there is no foundation for them?

Will my hon. Friend say what unofficial distribution there can be of leaflets of any kind to members of both the Services?

The question should be addressed to the gentleman who presides over the Institute.

Are these leaflets distributed with the sanction of the Colonial Office?

Have the Government undertaken to pay any sums of money for the emigration of discharged men?

I have just pointed out that an Emigration Bill will be introduced dealing with all these questions. Perhaps the hon. Member will know something about it when it is introduced.

Liquor Trade (Net Profits)

52.

asked the Prime Minister whether, despite the decreased output and consumption of liquor, the profits of the trade have increased for 1917 by £50,000,000; and what further action the Government propose to take?

I have no data which would enable me to estimate with any accuracy the net profits of the trade, and I can say nothing now in reference to the last part of the question.

If some profits were made in 1917, was it not the first of a long series of years in which the liquor trade made any profit at all?

Government Purchases Of Land (Valuers)

60.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what fees have been paid or are arranged to be paid by the Director of Lands for the War Office, the Air Board, and the Ministry of Munitions to valuers outside his own Department in connection with the purchase of land for Government purposes; and whether he will furnish the House with the names of the individuals so employed?

The Director-General of Lands has been fortunate in being able in many cases to arrange with eminent surveyors to value property on behalf of the Government at less than the usual fees, the profession as a whole being anxious to help the Government in every way during the War. In these circumstances it would hardly seem fair to state in the House all the fees that have been agreed upon.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this work is done by one of the Government Departments for the Admiralty, and why are these three other Departments brought in from the outside?

I am not aware that any other Department has taken land for the Admiralty.

Telegraphists (Army And Civil Pay)

63.

asked the Postmaster-General whether the telegraphists who volunteeered in 1914 were promised full civil pay in addition to their military pay and emoluments; whether he is aware of the value of the services of these men to the Army at that time and that, on 31st July, 1917, it was announced in the "Post Office Circular" that these officers would not, on discharge or transfer to the Reserve, be eligible for the usual Army gratuity; and upon what grounds the contract is varied without the consent of the men affected?

The answer to the first three questions is in the affirmative. In view of the exceptional treatment in the matter of pay already accorded to these men, as compared with those serving in other units, it was not considered that they should benefit by the gratuity issued to soldiers serving on the ordinary terms.

Carnegie Library, Cahirciveen

67.

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that the committee of the Carnegie Library in Cahirciveen refused the use of a room to the county council for technical and commercial classes; that practically the whole of the library, except the reading room and book office, is held by various Sinn Fein clubs; and that illegal drilling and gambling is carried on; and, if so, what action he proposes to take?

I am informed that the library committee have refused to allow the county council the use of a room for technical and commercial classes, and that the entire library, except the reading room and book office is held by various Sinn Fein organisations. There is a room where billiards and cards ace played, but the police have no evidence of gambling or drilling. Proceedings are being taken to restrain the improper use of the library premises.

British Prisoners Of War (Turkey)

70.

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether the Turkish authorities refuse to allow their English officer prisoners to buy soldier's ration bread with which to satisfy their hunger on the ground that Turkish officers in our hands are not allowed this concession; whether he is aware of the price which the said officers are charged for bread, which they are compelled under these circumstances to buy in the bazaar, with the result that many officers with limited means and with a wife and family to support are reduced to great financial extremity; and whether the military or Indian authorities will take some effective step or steps to relieve this situation?

Representations to the effect that British officer prisoners of war in Turkey are not allowed to purchase food at Government contract rates have recently been received, and it is known that the price of foodstuffs in Turkey is now very high. The Netherlands Minister has been authorised for some time past to supplement materially, and gratuitously, the amount paid to British officers by the Turkish authorities, but owing to the totally inadequate means of communication it is probable that this does not always reach the prisoners. The question is tinder consideration whether, in view of the continued rise in prices, the payments made by the Netherlands Minister should be increased.

Army Leave (Eastern Front)

71.

asked the Under secretary of State for War whether he will consider the possibility of granting leave of absence to troops who have served in the East since the outbreak of war?

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which I gave on Thursday last to a similar question by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Dorset.

Aviation Ground, Loch Doune

72.

asked the Under secretary of State for War what was the approximate area of the land at Loch Doune, Ayrshire, which was purchased by the War Office for the purpose of an aviation ground; what was the date of the purchase; and what was the price?

The area taken over under the powers of the Defence of the Realm Regulations was 17,346 acres. No part of the property has been purchased.

Army Pay Corps (Pay)

76.

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether the provisions of Article 4 of Army Order 1, of 1918, apply to non-commissioned officers of the Army Pay Corps on normal rates of pay as well as to non commissioned officers of the Royal Artillery clerks' section?

No, Sir; the corps, to which that article applies are detailed in it.

Tramcar Drivers (Discharged Soldiers)

78.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the reason for withholding certificates to discharged soldiers under the age of twenty-one who desire to obtain employment as tramcar drivers on the Metropolitan tramway systems; and whether he will take steps to provide that the period during which the police take up the references of a prospective tramcar driver is considerably reduced?

The age of twenty-one years was fixed on the advice of the Cab Committee in 1894, and the Commissioner of Police, who is the licensing authority, is precluded from granting a licence to any person below that age. My right hon. Friend is prepared, however, as a war measure, to modify the Order and to allow applications from discharged soldiers of the age of twenty who are physically fit for the work. Every effort is made to expedite the inquiries and to see that no avoidable-delay occurs.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that concession, could he not lower the age to nineteen; and, in view of the fact that these men are considered fit to have the Parliamentary vote at the age of nineteen, why cannot they at that age drive tramcars?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that large numbers of these men have been driving lorries in France and on the other fronts, and are, therefore, well qualified to drive tramcars; further, is he aware that the law which now precludes them was passed in 1894, before there were any motor-driven vehicles at all?

I will consult my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary on the point my hon. and gallant Friend has raised.

Hospital And Merchant Ships (German Prisoners)

57.

asked the Prime Minister whether, for the purpose of safeguarding our wounded officers and men and our medical and nursing staff, he will put on all hospital ships a number of German officers of superior rank; and whether he will also do the same on all unarmoured merchant ships?

The subject has been carefully considered by our naval and military authorities, and the action proposed in the question is not being taken.

Have not the Government yet discovered that the only treatment the Hun understands is that of reprisals?

We have discovered a, good deal about the Hun, but there are a great many considerations involved in a question of this kind which, obviously, cannot be discussed in the House of Commons.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give us some indication of why it is not done?

I have already given my answer. My hon. and gallant Friend must see that it is quite impossible to give in public the reasons either for or against an action of this kind.

Interned British Subjects And Aliens

79.

asked the Home Secretary whether in every case British subjects and aliens have been interned only on the recommendation of the Advisory Committee or whether the Home Office has interned anyone contrary to the advice of the Committee?

I presume the question refers to British subjects and alien friends interned under Regulation 14b. In these cases the Internment Order is made in the first instance on the recommendation of the competent military authority, but the person with respect to whom the Order is made has the right to appeal to the Advisory Committee. In no case has internment been maintained contrary to the advice of the Committee

Mercantile Marine (Standard Uniform)

1.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Report from the Committee appointed to consider the question of a standard uniform for the mercantile marine, which was signed on the 14th December last, will be laid upon the Table of the House; if and when it is proposed to publish it; and whether he can state what action is intended to be taken on it?

This Report, together with the Supplementary Report, which was signed in January, will shortly be laid on the Table, and will be published as soon as it is received from the printers. The action to be taken upon it is now under consideration.

Notification Of Births (Ireland)

68.

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the Notification of Births (Extension) Act, 1915, has up to the present been put in force in Ireland; whether the provisions of Section 2 of the Act have been adopted by any public or local authorities in Ireland; and whether any and, if so, what steps have been taken by the Local Government Board or by any local authority in Ireland in connection with the Act?

Arrangements for maternity and child welfare, in pursuance of the Notification of Births (Extension) Act, 1915, have been undertaken by the local authorities of twenty-six urban districts (including the county boroughs of Dublin, Belfast, Londonderry, and Waterford) and of two rural districts, and comprise schemes of health visiting of mothers and young children by duly qualified nurses, provision of medical and midwifery attendance in necessitous cases or confinement not otherwise provided for, the institution of maternity centres and day nurseries, and the supply of milk and dinners for necessitous mothers and young children. An Exchequer Grant is available to defray half the cost of the foregoing services, and in the current financial year is being distributed by the Local Government Board to twenty-four local authorities and to twenty-eight voluntary agencies administering approval schemes. Further schemes on similar lines are being formulated.

Orders Of The Day

Business Of The House

I beg to move, "That the Proceedings on Government Business be not interrupted this night under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), and may be entered upon at any hour although opposed."

I wish to put a question on the hypothetical basis that the right hon. Gentleman is taking the Second Reading of the Army (Annual) Bill to-night. In that case I understand the arrangement is that the Committee stage is to be taken to-morrow. Obviously if the Second Reading be taken late to-night, it is extremely inconvenient to those interested who desire to put down Amendments, and the suggestion I would make on behalf of a number of Members who are interested in the Bill is that there is no reason why it should not be postponed until after Easter, as a number of Members wish to take part in the Committee stage.

Have the Government decided to refer the Education Bill, after Second Reading, to a Committee of the Whole House?

The last question has already been answered. That is our intention. As regards the Trustee Savings Banks Bill, if it be reached at a reasonable hour we shall proceed with it, but not otherwise. I hope to get the first four Orders to-night. As regards the Army (Annual) Bill, we want to get it before Easter, but it is not absolutely essential, and we will consider postponing it. We are quite ready to take that course, if it be considered desirable.

Question put, and agreed to.

Education Bill

Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment to Question [13 th March], "That the Bill be now read a second time."

Which Amendment was, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months "—[ Mr. Peto.]

Question again proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."

I feel that it would be improper, and for me impossible, to enter on the resumed discussion of this Bill to-day without saying how much I regret, and I believe the whole House will regret, that we have been deprived of the presence of one whose participation in this Debate would have been particularly welcome. I think hon. Members in all parts of the House will share my regret that we cannot have the advantage in the remainder of these Debates of the shrewdness, the sagacity, the experience, and the profound zeal for education, especially on its technical side, of the late Member for the Keighley Division of Yorkshire (Sir Swire Smith).

There is one feature of this Bill which to my mind is of the very highest significance and in regard to which little or nothing has been said in the course of the Debate. I refer to that feature of the Bill which is tucked or hidden away, if one may use the expression, in Clause 7. Before dealing with that point I hope I may be allowed to add just one more to the felicitations which have poured down upon my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Education for the great courage which he has displayed in grappling with the conception of this Bill, and also for the great skill he has shown in the exposition of its details. I am certain, however, that my right hon. Friend would be the first to admit that his main task has been to reduce, to bring into symmetrical form, and to give coherence to the ideas and principles which have for a longtime past been common to all in the country who are really interested in education. It seems to me to be the really significant feature of the situation that there is an increasing number of people who are agreed upon the principles which the right hon. Gentleman has embodied in this Bill. I think most hon. Members will agree that hitherto the people of this country who have been interested in education are a mere handful of our population. The English people have never been as a whole really interested in the problem of education. I use the word "English" in its narrower sense. They have been nothing like so interested as, for example, the Scottish people, nothing like so much interested as the Welsh people, and, above all, nothing like so much interested as the German people. Germany has shown itself for the last hundred years at least in deadly earnest in regard to the problem of education. I regard the production of this Bill as very conclusive testimony to the fact that we English people are beginning to be in earnest about education. I am disposed to think that not even the courage of my right hon. Friend would have sufficed to bring forward this Bill if he had not felt behind him an immense national impulse, and a newly awakened, and very generally awakened, zeal for education.

I would like to say one passing word which may possibly account to some extent for this awakening. The first reason I believe is that in this, as in so many other respects, the War has been a tremendous educator of public opinion. It has revealed the weak joints in the armour of our national equipment. That is the first reason. In consequence of that revelation the country as a whole is looking forward to a period of reconstruction, both economic, social, and constitutional, and more and more the conviction is forcing itself upon the minds of most thoughtful people that at the root of this problem of reconstruction—and I speak of it as a single problem—in its manifold manifestations there lies this problem of national education. Further than that, it is with the solution of this problem that the whole scheme of reconsruction will have to begin. My hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Peto) has moved the rejection or postponement of this Bill in a speech which commanded the attention of the whole House, and he moved it primarily on the ground that this House has no mandate to deal with the problem of education. I was rather surprised to hear such an ultra-democratic sentiment proceeding from the mouth of the hon. Member for Devizes. For my own part, I confess that I am still a strong believer in the root principle of representative government, which I take to be that the Members of this House are not mere delegates, here to do the direct bidding of their constituents, but that they are representatives entitled—indeed, required—to act for their constituents to the best of their ability and discretion. Apart from that, the hon. Member cannot, I think, deny that this Bill has behind it an immense and very rapidly growing amount of public opinion; opinion not in favour, as I think the right hon. Gentleman will discover when he gets into Committee, of all the details of this Bill, but which is certainly in favour of its basic principles and of a more conspicuous and outstanding application of those principles.

4.0 P.M.

What is the basic principle of this Bill? I believe it is that we have for weal or woe committed the Government of this country to a democracy, and we believe that, having done that, it is of absolute and paramount importance that that democracy should be an educated democracy, a democracy educated to discharge the vast and ever-increasing burdens which are cast upon the citizen rulers of this Empire. Therefore, for my own part, I cannot be a party to any proposal that is intended to defeat or even to delay the passing into law of the main proposals contained in this Bill. Those proposals are very comprehensive, and very complex. They concern not only elementary education, but also secondary and technical education, and they concern, as, I think, has been very imperfectly realised in this House, and very intimately concern, the higher education system of this country. And in all those three new Departments it is not too much to say that the Bill really foreshadows a revolution.

So far as I have been able to discern there is not, with one or two exceptions, a great deal of controversy in reference to the proposals in regard to elementary education. Most people who have thought about the matter are absolutely agreed upon the restriction on industrial employment. I was very glad indeed to hear my right hon. Friend, the other night, laying so much stress on that point. I think that most people are agreed again as to the raising of the leaving age for elementary scholars. They are agreed again, in very large part, as to the abolition of what is called half-time. I am certain that they are no less agreed as to the conspicuous place which the right hon. Gentleman's Bill is giving to the physical training of our children. I am; delighted to recognise the stress which he lays upon this point. I would venture to suggest that gymnastic in the German, or indeed in the Greek sense, is not enough for physical training. Besides. gymnastic you want games. Gymnastic may generate muscle, but you want games to develop morale and character. The mere provision of physical exercises, such as those which have been introduced into many of our elementary schools, is, in my opinion, not enough without the moral incentive of games. To the general agreement on those points, I believe, that there will be one or two rather important exceptions. The first was indicated by my right hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow and Aberdeen University (Sir H. Craik). I am cordially in agreement with him on the point on which he laid so much stress, that there is a very dangerous innovation contained in the Third Sub-section of the Eighth Clause of the Bill. That is the Sub-section which deprives the parent of the right of appeal to a Court of law. The education authority, whether local or central authority, should not be the judge in its own case. The parent ought to have an ultimate appeal to a Court of law. I find in this Sub-section of the Bill one of those multiplying symptoms of bureaucratic autocracy which it is one of the many functions of this House most vigilantly to guard against and to combat. On that ground the right hon. Gentleman, unless he is prepared to make concessions, may, I think, anticipate some considerable opposition when we get to close grips with the Bill.

There is one other point on which I would like to say just one passing word at this stage. If I may say so with very great respect, I think that there are in this Bill several traces of a somewhat pedantic adherence to the formulae of the doctrinaire. Of these by far the most important to my mind is contained in the twenty-second Clause of the Bill. That Clause deals with the abolition of fees in elementary schools. I can perfectly well understand my right hon. Friend saying, "I am determined to make the best education available to the children of the poorest as well as to the children of the richest," but what I cannot understand is his refusal to accept fees from those who are willing to pay them. I shall be told, I suppose, that it is really a democratic proposal. Is it democratic that to the wealthy man he says, "I am not going to touch your expenditure on private and on secondary schools; I am not going to touch the schools to which you send your boys and girls, paying fees of from £100 to £150 and £200 a year for their education," while the pence of the poor man are tainted, are taboo; and to the poor man he says, "We will not permit you to pay your pence for such additions as you may desire, though we gladly allow the rich man to pay his £100 or £200 a year for what he regards as the educational luxuries of his class." I suggest that the proposal contained in the twenty-second Clause of the Bill is almost purely pedantic. I respectfully warn the right hon. Gentleman that if he proves obdurate on this point—I am perfectly sure that he will not—he may expect very determined opposition on the Committee stage of the Bill. Already there have come to me, as I have no doubt they have come to other Members of this House, representations from all sides in regard to this particular Clause, and with all possible friendliness, I desire to warn the President of the Board of Education that already there is much hostility to this Clause outside the House, and that that hostility will find an echo inside this House when we come to close quarters with the Bill.

I now come to very much more debate-able and controversial matter—that is the portion of the Bill that deals with continuation schools. In regard to these schools there seem to be three alternatives. First, the alternative of part-time education for all young persons above elementary school age between fourteen and eighteen. That is the scheme, as everybody knows, which is embodied in the Bill. But as alternatives to those there have been suggested, on the one side by the hon. Member for Devizes, and on the other by the hon. Member for Chorley, two alternatives. Either a whole-time education for selected pupils or a half-time education for pupils between the ages of fourteen and sixteen. If education consists, as I cannot help thinking that the hon. Member for Chorley has some impression that it does consist, in pumping a certain number of facts into a boy's or girl's head, then I think that there would be a great deal to be said for the alternative which he puts forward. Surely we have got beyond that point of view in regard to education. We now regard education as the drawing out of the pupil of all that is best in the pupil himself, and from that point of view it is infinitely better, as I hope the House will ultimately agree, to have your four years of part-time education for all pupils than to have either your two years of education of half-time, or to have your selected pupils. But those are three arguable alternatives in regard to which I expect we shall hear a great deal more when we come to close grips. Personally, I am inclined to agree with the solution of the question which is proposed in the Bill itself, and for this reason: that if you do not keep all your children under some sort of educational control, and not merely selected numbers of them, you run the very grave risk of wasting some very valuable brains, and of all forms of national waste that is the most uneconomical.

Just let the House consider what might possibly have been lost to the country if, instead of going on from their private preparatory schools to Eton or Winchester at the age of fourteen, Members of this House had been forced prematurely into an industrial career. I can quite imagine that at the age of fourteen even Members of this House might not have developed those shining abilities which they have displayed to so much advantage in this House and in the country at large. I confess that even the possibility of such a disaster as that would compel me to pause before accepting the suggestion of the hon. Member for Devizes. But I have another reason for my hesitation, and it is this: I have had a great deal to do during the last seven years with the education of the adult citizens of this country—people of university age, and, above all, people of university age who have not had the opportunity of going to a university. What has been the gravest impediment which we have found in the way of the extension of higher citizen education? Unquestionably by far the greatest difficulty has been the gap which has hitherto existed between the elementary school and the extra mural courses to which these men and women have been accustomed to come. It has been the gap between the elementary school and the point at which they take up the renewed education at the age of eighteen, nineteen, twenty, twenty-five, very often fifty-five—all sorts of ages. These people come into our classes and our lectures, many of them having had no opportunity at all of former education, since the age of twelve, thirteen, or in many cases even younger. Their very desire to profit by the courses of instruction offered by the universities-has not enabled them to do so by reason of the lack of intermediate training. I am glad to see in his place the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education, because, in this respect, Wales has been very much better off than this country; and one of the reasons of the great success of higher education in Wales, I am confident, has been that they have developed a most admirable scheme of intermediate education. It is some of the advantages of this scheme which Wales has long enjoyed that my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Education is proposing to extend to the people of this country.

The gap, as I say, has been one of the difficulties we have had to encounter in this adult education. Another difficulty, of course, has been the very grave lack of funds. I am glad, therefore, to observe, that my right hon. Friend has made provision, though rather cryptically, for the removal of the difficulty in one obscure Clause of this Bill—I refer to Clause 7, which removes the limit imposed upon local authorities with respect to secondary and higher education. In this respect I think that the Bill aims at doing the right thing, though I am inclined to think that it is rather disposed to do good by stealth. I can very well understand the reason of the stealthy approach of the right hon. Gentleman to this question. I have no doubt he has in mind the great cost which will inevitably be imposed by the passing of this Bill. If the House will permit me I would like to say only one or two passing words on that portion of the right hon. Gentleman's speech which dealt. with the probable cost of this Bill. He distinguished, and I think he very rightly distinguished between what I may call the indirect taxation, the taxation which this Bill might impose upon industry, and the direct or money cost of the Bill to the ratepayer and taxpayer of this country. I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman in thinking that the indirect tax imposed upon industry is not likely to be a permanent tax. It is one which may very soon be recovered. But I do not think it would be candid not to admit that, even in that respect, there may be some tax upon the industry of the country, and I would appeal to the light hon. Gentleman, for that reason, to deal gently with those industries which would be most affected by the passing of this Bill. But it is the money cost of the Bill with which I want particularly to deal. The right hon. Gentleman distinguished between the price of those portions of the Bill which he described as essential and the price of those portions which 'he described as not essential but desirable. He told us that the cost of raising the leaving age to fourteen may be computed at about £1,000,000 per annum. He computed the cost of his continuation proposals at something nearly approaching £9,000,000 a year, making an expenditure on essentials of nearly £10,000,000 a year. I am disposed to think that this is rather a serious under-estimate of the probable cost of the Bill. Then the right hon. Gentleman went on to the cost of the desirable portions of the Bill, and I was very much surprised, I confess, to hear him enumerate only the cost of the proposed nursery schools, which he put at £900,000 a year. The financial position was the only portion of the right hon. Gentleman's statement which left me in some doubt as to his meaning. I should be very much obliged if he would take the opportunity, later on, to indicate whether in his estimate he included not only the cost of continuation schools, but many other forms of secondary education, such as the junior technical schools, the junior commercial schools, and a number of schools other than the continuation proposals. What I want to know is whether his rough financial estimate, which he gave us the other night, includes those proposals of the Bill? If the right hon. Gentleman includes all the experiments to which I have drawn attention I can only think that his estimate is still more of an understatement.

Then he appeared to allow nothing—I am quite open to correction on this point—for the proposals which are embodied, or rather I should say embedded, in the seventh Clause of the Bill. Was there any estimate for the price of the removal of the 2d. limit. I think not. I am not certain on that point, but I hope before this Debate closes we may be enlightened on that point from the Front Bench. I hope the right hon. Gentleman and the House will understand that I am not complaining in the least of the financial aspects of the Bill, but I do venture to ask the House whether the way in which the finance of the Bill has been presented to the House, so far, does not strengthen, enormously strengthen, the case for the suggestion which I made in the course of last Session? The House may possibly remember—I think it was in the Debate on the setting up of a Select Committee on national expenditure—that I gave expression to the hope that in regard to all the important legislative proposals brought before this House we might have set up, if the forms of the House allowed, a a special Committee charged with the duty of examining the financial aspects of every Bill under consideration. I know there existed, in times past, what was called the Estimates Committee, a Committee of the House for the examination of Estimates as a whole; but the point I urge upon the right hon. Gentleman's attention is that, not in connection with the Estimates as a whole, but in connection with each specific legislative proposal which is likely to involve the House and the country in large expenditure, there should be: et up a special Committee which shall have imposed upon it the duty of reporting to the House upon the financial aspects of the legislative proposals under consideration by the House. I venture to make a very strong appeal, if the procedure of the House will allow it, that in connection with this Bill there should be set up an Estimates Committee. Already I am afraid I have detained the House long enough, perhaps at excessive length. I can only plead that the Question under discussion is one to which I have personally devoted the whole of my adult life as a teacher and an organiser of education. It is on that ground, and on that ground alone, that I am, perhaps, entitled to ask the House to listen to me this afternoon. We are, as I think the whole House will agree, embarking, in the Second Reading of this Bill, on a work of really national importance. The hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Peto) pointed out on Wednesday, and—though I may say that I agree with him as a general rule—I was very sorry to hear what he said, that
"The scheme of the Bill is obviously framed by educationists."
I do not know whether he meant that as a matter of reproach or not. He went on,
"But I think that it misses the real aim of education."
What follows?—
"The acquisition of knowledge is no end in itself."
To that proposition I think we shall all assent. The hon. Member continued,
"It is only of value when it can be made of real use to the individual."
What does he mean by "real use"? I understood him to mean—I apologise if I misunderstood him—the real use in an industrial and in a directly economic sense. That is how I understood his speech. I would point out, with the greatest possible earnestness and sincerity, that there is another end of education than that. That is exceedingly important, but that is not the whole end of education. We want to turn out, not only efficient manual workers, not only efficient men of business, but we want to turn out by means of this Bill—which is not a measure merely for the manufacture of workmen, but one for the manufacture of citizens—those who will play their part in the administration and government of the State. It is from that point of view I regard this Bill. I have seen this Bill described as the "Children's Charter." I am not without hope that it will come to deserve a still more generous appellation; I believe in time to come it may be described, not as the children's charter, but as the nation's charter. I believe that, for the first time, we have in this Bill a real attempt, the first that has ever been made for this country, to lay, broad and deep, the foundations of a scheme of education which shall be truly national in its comprehensiveness and in its conception. The very wisest of all the wise men of old once laid it down that of those things which go to maintain the stability of the State and the continuance of a constitution, by far the most important is that the educational system of the country should be devised in the spirit of the polity, and that it should be relevant to the Constitution. That very wise saying contains, as it seems to me, both an encouragement and a warning. It forbids anything in the nature of slavish imitation of other peoples.

We are sometimes bidden to admire, and not only to admire, but to imitate, the educational systems of our neighbours. One hon. Member, the other night, held up to emulation the system of education in the United States of America. I know something of the American system and of its fruits, and I believe that that system is well devised and well conceived to serve the needs of the American polity, but their polity is not to ours. Much more frequently, at any rate until four years ago, we were exhorted to copy this or that feature of the German. system of education. I know a little about German education too, and it is my belief that never, in the history of the world, has any State or any people devised an educational system more complete, more coherent, more admirably and skilfully calculated to preserve the spirit of the polity than has Germany. Yes, but what is the spirit of their polity? The spirit of the Prussian polity is and always has been the spirit of war. Prussia was, and Germany is, the Kriegstat. From the cradle to the grave the German citizen has been regarded primarily as a soldier. Every man child is taught that he has come into the world with the primary duty of fighting for the Fatherland; every German girl has been taught that it is her duty, her primary duty, to be the mother of sons who will fight for the Fatherland. That is the spirit of the German polity, and its fruits are to-day manifest throughout the world. The spirit of our polity is wholly different, and we have got to work out a system of education not less complete than theirs, not less coherent than theirs, and equally designed to preserve the spirit of a wholly different polity. I sometimes wonder whether we realise and whether the people of this country realise that they have entered, half blindly, half unconsciously, upon an experiment which is literally unique, without precedent, and without parallel in the history of the world! What is the nature of that experiment? There have been great Empires in the world before ours: there have been democracies in the world before ours. But there has never before been in the history of the world an attempt to-rule a world Empire through the medium and by the machinery of a real democracy. We have got, therefore, to devise an educational system unlike any other system which the world has known before, because adapted to a polity which has never existed in the world before. As a nation we have, I think, been curiously slow to undertake this task, or even to apprehend this task. We have been slow to understand the things that really belong unto our peace. But the terrible experience of the last four years has burned into us an understanding which was not there before, and has led to an awakening of the national mind and of the national con- science in this matter. In that awakening we have, I think, a splendid and possibly unique opportunity, and it is because I believe that my right hon. Friend has realised that opportunity and shown himself resolved to redeem it, that I, for one, shall give to this Bill, in its broad outlines, the most hearty and continuous support.

I am sure we have all listened with pleasure to the interesting speech just delivered by one who has a wide experience and deep knowledge of the subject which is now under consideration. My hon. Friend has enunciated a large number of general principles with which, I suppose, all Members of the House are in agreement. He has suggested certain alterations in the Bill now before us, but I must own that with some of those propositions I do not find myself entirely in agreement. He has told us that the English people take very little interest in education. I do not think that is the case. In fact, I think I may say that there is no subject on which everyone feels that he is more capable of speaking with dogmatic authority than on the subject of education. I would not for one moment suggest that my hon. Friend so speaks, but I must own that we do find a large number of speeches delivered on this subject from persons without very much knowledge of the subject. I do not propose to detain the House long. Many of the subjects referred to in the speech of my hon. Friend can be well debated in Committee. We are now on the Second Reading of the Bill, and we ought to confine ourselves to the general principles underlying it. I am not disposed to admit with him that there is great hostility to the abolition of fees in the elementary schools. I have received numbers of letters on the subject of this Bill, but in no one of them has any hostility to that Clause been suggested. I do agree with him entirely in his statement as regards the importance of filling up the gap in our educational system between the age when children leave elementary schools and desire to enter our universities or technical institutions. But looking at this Bill as a whole, I have no hesitation in saying that no one of the several Education Bills which have been introduced into this House during the last half-century has met with such general approval as the Bill that we are now considering. May I say that it is a very great improvement on the first draft that was submitted last year. Thanks, I understand very largely, to the representations of my hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Sir H. Hibbert), some of the administrative Clauses which promised to confer large additional powers upon the Board of Education have been modified, or removed, leaving a very necessary and much appreciated measure of influence and control to our local education authorities.

Another matter to which reference has not been made has been introduced into Clause 10, Sub-section 6, which gives relief to members of all religious denominations from obligatory attendance at continuation schools on days set apart for religious services. The skill displayed by the framers of this Bill in avoiding the many thorny subjects which arise out of what is known as the religious question, it I think deserving of high praise, and will, I am quite certain, facilitate the passage of the Bill through the House. There are other difficulties connected with these religious questions which cannot be altogether removed in the Bill itself, but I hope they will be satisfactorily adjusted in the regulations, which I suppose will be issued later on, laying down quite definitely the conditions under which State aid will be given to our secondary schools. I agree with my right hon. Friend (Sir H. Craik) when he said in his interesting speech on Wednesday last:
"Ninety-nine out of every hundred men in this country are convinced that a great element in the shaping of character must be derived from the religious motive."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th March, 1918, col. 363.]
That conviction, I am sure, has been strengthened in all our minds by our unexpected and painful experience of the barbarous and immoral acts perpetrated by our German enemies, who have been reared in schools which possess all the advantages ascribed to them by my hon. Friend opposite, but which have been bereft of the higher sanction which religion gives to conduct. I have said that this Bill No. 2 has met with an unprecedented measure of general approval, and it is so. Closely connected as I am with a very large number of educational bodies and educational associations, I think it is only due to the President of the Board and to this House that I should state that I have received and have been a party to the adoption of numerous resolutions expressing the earnest desire that the Bill, modified as we hope it may be in some particulars, shall become law during the present Session. I am sure that my right hon. Friend the President of the Board will recognise that any suggestions which I may think it my duty to offer will be of a friendly and helpful character, and are not intended to retard in any way the progress of this Bill.

Let me at once say that this Bill is regarded, and I so regard it, as a great democratic measure of educational reform, a fitting sequel to the legislation of 1870 and 1902, and a measure which, if thoughtfully and considerately administered, is well calculated, in my opinion, to advance the knowledge, stimulate the intelligence, elevate the character, and improve the physical condition of the great majority of the children and young people of this country. If it breaks down any remaining barriers that may stand in the way of the wage-earning class receiving advanced education and proceeding to our universities, it will be all to the good. I am old enough to remember that after the passing of the Reform Act of 1867 the first occupant of the seat in this House which I have now the honour to hold said, I believe, from these benches, "we must now educate our masters." During the past fifty years we have been trying, with more or less success, to do that—less success, I fear, to some extent, owing to the educational policy we have pursued. But now that the Representation of the People Bill of last year has become law, I venture say, with more reason and with greater hope of success, "We must further educate our masters and our mistresses," because, by that Act, the men and women of this country, without distinction of class or occupation, or financial position, will be required to exercise far greater control over our legislation than was possible before. To my mind one of the saddest, I might almost say the most tragic, features of the so called German kultur is that the German people, as a whole, highly instructed as I admit they are, although most imperfectly educated, have been debarred from taking any active part in the government of their country and exercising any influence upon its policy. Happily, it is not so with us, and I feel convinced that should this Bill pass into law it will have the effect of better educationally equipping our men and women for the discharge of the full and responsible duties of citizenship.

I stated that the Bill, revolutionary as are some of its provisions, has been widely approved as a great measure of educational reform. The hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Peto), who moved its rejection, thinks it is too great a step to be carried at once, and that the time is not opportune for considering so far-reaching a measure. I am convinced that few will agree with him—indeed, there are some who think that the Bill does not go far enough—and I am quite, certain that if my hon. Friend decides, as I hope he may not, to go to a Division on the Second Reading, he will find that very few Members of this House, however much they may differ as regards certain Clauses, will follow him into the Lobby. But be that as it may, the President, I am certain, will give due considerations to all proposals that are put forward, and particularly those which have emanated from so ardent an advocate of advanced education as the hon. Member for Chorley (Sir H. Hibbert). The most important Amendments to this Bill refer to Clause 10. The necessity for further education after the age of fourteen is generally admitted, and the criticisms of the general principles of this Bill are almost wholly directed to the question of what further education may be best provided. There are many who hold, and I agree with them, that children of all classes should receive a better literary and scientific education than they do at present. It is only right to say that the majority of the teachers whom I have consulted with regard to this Clause 10 prefer the Clause as it stands rather than accept any Amendments. I fool very strongly that we must not entirely disregard the views of those who are associated with trade and commerce in this country and who are qualified to speak as to the effect of Clause 10 on the industrial and social condition of large sections of the population. I am by no means certain that the education of young people who are to receive part-time instruction in these continuation schools might not be more efficiently advanced by proposals somewhat different from those contained in the Bill.

The hon. Member for the City of Oxford (Mr. Marriott) stated that one great advantage of Clause 10 as it stands is that you obtain control over your children for another three or four years. But that is not the ideal towards which we aim. The ideal at which we aim is that the children shall receive secondary education, full-time education up to the age of sixteen, and it is only those who fail to reach that standard who will be compulsorily received into these continuation classes. The President of the Board declared that there was nothing sacrosanct itself about industry and that the real interest of the State did not consist in the maintainence of this or that industry, but in the maintenance of the we fare of all its citizens. That is true. No one can, deny it. But the welfare of the citizens does directly depend on the adaptation of the education of large sections of the people to the industrial needs of the nation, and that fact is the very raison d'etre of what we understand by technical education. I was glad to notice that the President recognised its importance by stating that he is proposing under the Bill to stimulate the provision of junior technical and commercial schools. But more than that is needed if the welfare of all citizens is to be safeguarded.

We shall have an opportunity in Committee of considering very carefully the proposals with regard to these continuation schools, but in connection with them I venture now to suggest two important matters to which scant reference is made in the Clauses of the Bill. These are (1) the subjects to be taught in these continuation classes;(2) the provision of suitable teachers, and the arrangements to be made for the training of teachers. It is not enough to lay down the general principle that all young persons, unless specially exempted, shall, between the ages of fourteen and eighteen, receive, during 240 hours in the year, further instruction, as so much will depend on the answers to the questions—what is to be taught, and by whom it is to be I may mention in passing that the number of hours proposed seems to be utterly insufficient to give the results expected. As regards the subjects of instruction, I do not suggest for one moment that the Bill should indicate in detail what those subjects shall be. That must be left to the local education authorities. But it is important that the parents of the young people, who are to be heavily fined should they not encourage their children to attend these continuation classes, should have a right to be consulted and to know whether the instruction is to be strictly technical and vocational, or whether, on the other hand, it shall be liberal and general and a real continuation of the teaching in the elementary schools, such as is provided now in our best secondary schools. This distinction is fundamental, and has direct reference to another matter—the relation of these new schools to our existing well-equipped and ably-staffed technical institutions. Much depends on the character of the teaching given in the continuation schools. Will it be overlapping or preparatory? I consider it should be preparatory. I hold that those who, during their working hours, are compelled to attend these classes should have some of the real and helpful advantages of secondary education. Then as regards teachers, the distinction is equally important, and possibly more so. The training suitable for a technical teacher is altogether different from that of a master in a secondary school. The subjects to be taught are different, and even the methods of instruction are not the same. Moreover, the buildings in which the instruction is to be given and the equipment to be provided must be specially adapted to that teaching, if it is to be efficient.

5.0 P.M.

These are matters which must be carefully considered before the Bill is brought into operation, and I hope we may be informed as to the decision of the Government on some of these questions when this Clause 10 is considered in Committee. There is only one other matter to which I desire to refer. The hon. Member who moved the rejection of the Bill (Mr. Peto) has referred to Clauses 18 and 19 which deal with medical inspection and the treatment of the pupils and students in attendance at the several schools and institutions in which instruction under the Bill may be provided. It will be seen that Clause 18 gives a very wide meaning to the word "institutions." It includes secondary schools, continuation schools, and such other schools or educational institutions not being elementary schools, provided by the local educational authorities, "as the Board may direct." There can be little doubt whatever as to the advantage to the country of young people during their period of adolescence receiving such careful medical inspection and treatment as is proposed under this Clause