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Commons Chamber

Volume 105: debated on Monday 22 April 1918

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House Of Commons

Monday, 22nd April, 1918.

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

Brixham Gas Bill [ Lords],

Read a second time, and committed.

Land Drainage (Lotting Fen) Provisional Order Bill,

Read the third time, and passed.

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill,

As amended, considered; to be read the third time To-morrow.

Ministry Of Pensions

Copy presented of Royal Warrant for the Pensions of Soldiers disabled and of the Widows of Soldiers deceased in consequence of former Wars [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Copy presented of Royal Warrant for the Pensions of Soldiers disabled and of the Families and Dependants of Soldiers deceased in consequence of the present War [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Board Of Education

Copy presented of Regulations under which Supplementary Grant will be paid to Local Education Authorities for Elementary Education [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Births, Deaths, And Marriages (Scotland)

Copy presented of Sixty-second Annual Report of the Registrar-General on the Births, Deaths, and Marriage? in Scotland for 1916 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Military Service Act, 1918, And Military Service (No 2) Act, 1918

Copy presented of Royal Proclamation, dated 20th April, 1918, withdrawing certain Certificates of Exemption from Military Service [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Shops Act, 1912

Copy presented of Order made by the Council of the undermentioned local authority, and confirmed, with Amendment, by the Secretary for Scotland:

City of Perth

[by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Ministry Of Food

Copy presented of Flour and Bread (Registration) Order, 1918, and Horses (Rationing) Order, 1918, made by the Food Controller under the Defence of the Realm Regulations [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Aliens (Naturalisation)

Return presented relative thereto [Address 10th April; Mr. Brace]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 47.]

Post Office Savings Banks (Regulations)

Copy presented of the Post Office Savings Bank Amendment (No. 3) Regulations, 1918 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Second Chamber Conference

Copy presented of Letter from Viscount Bryce to the Prime Minister relative to the Conference on the Reform of the Second Chamber [by Command]: to lie upon the Table.

Financial Statement (1918–19)

Copy ordered "of Statement of Revenue and Expenditure as laid before the House by the Chancellor of the Exchequer when opening the Budget."—[Mr. Baldwin.]

Copy presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 46.]

Oral Answers To Questions

War

Lighting, Heating, And Power Order

1.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that many people have been economising in the use of gas and electricity since the beginning of 1916; and, in those cases, will he arrange for the year 1915 to be taken, as the year for comparison?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which was given to a question by the hon. Member for the Wimbledon Division on the 12th instant. In allowing consumers to take the year 1916 or 1917 as the basis for comparison, the Order goes as far as is practicable to meet the cases referred to, having regard to the exigencies of the situation.

Do I understand that they can take the year 1915 in cases of hardship?

If I supply my hon. Friend with the information, he will see the hardship that is done.

The answer is "No; the consumer may take the corresponding quarter either of 1916 or 1917." If my hon. Friend will read the answer to which I have referred him, he will find the reply.

3.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that certain gas companies in London, with a view of reducing consumption of gas, are suggesting to consumers with slot meters that they shall be limited to 1s. worth of gas per week; and, as this kind of consumer are largely tenement occupiers in working class districts in London, and use gas both for lighting and cooking purposes, and that this quantity is quite inadequate for such household use, whether he can see his way to instruct the gas companies to allow a larger amount per week to all holders of slot gas-meters?

My right hon. Friend regrets that he does not see his way, owing to the necessity which he has already explained to the House, of a substantial reduction in the consumption of gas, to-modify the minimum allowance specified in the Schedule to the Lighting, Heating, and Power Order, 1918.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware, in the case of a number of persons who have had gas stoves put in, that the restriction makes it quite impossible for them to cook their food, that they will have to resort to an extra supply of coal, that they are out of an adequate supply of coal, and that they cannot get supplies?

Paper Shortage

4.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Paper Controller has considered the saving of paper that can be effected by allowing the printing of new posters on the backs of old ones; and, if so, will he issue an Order authorising the printing of new posters upon the backs of old posters without limit of size?

It has been decided by the Paper Controller to exercise the powers given under Clause 22 of the Paper Restriction (Posters and Circulars) Order, 1918, with a view to permitting the use of stock posters in the manner suggested by the hon. and gallant Member.

India (War Measures)

5.

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he can make any statement regarding war measures taken and to be taken in India upon the telegram sent by the Prime Minister to the Viceroy?

The Secretary of State for India is not in a position at present to make a statement on the subject, but the hon. Member may rest assured that it is engaging the closest attention of the Government of India in communication with His Majesty's Government.

Afghanistan

6.

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he knows any thing of a person described in the German Press as the Indian Prince Mahendra Prato, who is said to have represented himself as an agent of the King of Afghanistan?

The person described as an "Indian Price" is doubtless Mohendranath Pratap, the individual mentioned by my right hon. Friend the late Secretary of State for India, in a statement made to the House on the 29th November, 1916, as having been sent to Afghanistan by the German Government. This individual has no claim whatever to the title of "Prince," being merely a small landowner from a British district in the United Provinces. His estates were attached by the Government of India in 1916.

Russian Interests (United Kingdom)

7.

asked (1) the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he proposes to take any steps for the formation of a Committee jointly with the Board of Trade for the protection of Russian interests held in this country; whether he has any evidence of the total value of such interest; whether he will consider the advisability of appointing a Government Committee to obtain such reports and records of investments by British subjects in Russian securities and properties as may be sufficient evidence of existence and tenure in case of difficulties arising in future events; and whether any proposals have been made up to date by the Board of Trade, and what steps have been taken upon them; and (2) the President of the Board of Trade what steps the Board of Trade have taken up to the present in the protection of the interests in Russian bonds, securities, deeds, and property held in this country, the value of which exceeds 150 millions; and whether he proposes to appoint any Government Committee to obtain evidence of the existence of such securities so as to avoid the results which would follow upon the destruction of records of property by Bolsheviks in Russia?

The question is under consideration.

Scandinavian Countries

British Consuls And Vice-Consuls

8.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many British Consuls and Vice-Consuls there are respectively in Sweden, Norway, Holland, and Denmark; and how many in each of these countries are British by birth?

Sweden: Salaried officers, 11, including one Consul-General; unsalaried officers, 22 (of whom 20 are foreigners).

Norway: Salaried officers, 34; unsalaried officers, 22 (of whom 21 are foreigners).

Holland: Salaried officers, 11, including one Consul-General; unsalaried officers, 13 (of whom 10 are foreigners).

Denmark: Nine salaried officers; 18 unsalaried officers (of whom 16 are foreigners).

All the salaried officers are British by birth. Eight of the unsalaried officers, namely, two in Sweden, one in Norway, three in Holland and two in Denmark, are also British by birth.

May I ask if it is a fact that His Majesty's Government are determined, as opportunity affords, to replace Consuls, Vice-Consuls, and principal members of staffs who are of foreign birth by people who are of British birth?

I think the whole tendency is in that direction. I would not like to pledge myself that we should never appoint a foreigner, though I think in many cases it is quite unnecessary.

I am afraid that I have given all the information in my power. I should imagine that they are.

Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether any of the gentlemen mentioned are of German nationality?

Food Supplies

Grass Lands (Increased Cultivation)

9.

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether landlords and tenant farmers have, generally speaking, willingly carried out the decisions of the county executive committees regarding the ploughing of grass lands; and what percentage of the whole new acreage brought under cultivation during the last six months is due to the use of Government tractors or other Government aid?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Speaking generally, landowners and farmers have responded admirably to the appeals of the executive committees. In reply to the second part, it is not possible at present to distinguish the proportions in which the increased cultivation is due to Government tractors or other forms of Government aid.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a general feeling that the large landowners are not doing their proportion of the ploughing up?

German Prisoners, Isle Of Man

55.

asked the Undersecretary for War whether German prisoners interned in the Isle of Man have been receiving one pound of butter each per week with the privilege of buying a further pound if they so desire; and, if 80, whether he will take steps to bring the ration into conformity with that enforced upon our own soldiers and the civil population?

My hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. The answer to the first part is in the negative. No butter is issued to prisoners interned in the Isle of Man nor are they allowed to buy any. The second part of the question, therefore, does not arise.

Tiree Cottars (Illegal Cultivation)

43.

asked the Secretary for Scotland on what date the Board of Agriculture for Scotland first became aware of the desire of persons in the island of Tiree to use the derelict sheep-run on the farm of Balephetrish for the purpose of food cultivation; what was the number of sheep on that sheep-run at that time, and what is the maximum number that have since been on it at any one time; and whether the cottars who were sentenced to imprisonment for taking possession of it for the purposes of food cultivation are still in prison?

The Board of Agriculture for Scotland has been aware since 1912 that there is a desire for small holdings in Tiree. In 1913 they prepared a scheme for new holdings and enlargements on part of the farm of Balephetrish, which was approved by the Land Court. The tenant of the farm elected to have his compensation determined by arbitration, and the amount awarded by the arbiter was so large that the Board had no option but to abandon the scheme. In November last an application was made to the Board to provide land for cultivation under the powers contained in the Defence of the Realm Regulations, and the Board were about to proceed on these lines when in the month of December the land was seized by certain of the cottars. There is no derelict sheep-run on the farm of Balephetrish, which is fully stocked and well farmed. The number of sheep on the farm, or any part of it, necessarily varies from time to time, and I am unable to give the figures for which my hon. and learned Friend asks. The cottars who were imprisoned for breach of interdict have been liberated in ordinary course. My right hon. Friend is informed that none of the cottars are in distress for food and there is no risk of their suffering any privations through want of land. He understands that during 1917 the farmer offered them plots for potato growing, but these offers were declined by some of the cottars, who wished the farm broken up into small holdings.

Is the Board of Agriculture now proposing to put this scheme through under the powers of the Defence of the Realm Act?

Voters' Lists

10.

asked the Minister of Munitions whether arrangements have been completed whereby printing firms throughout the country may be enabled to produce the voters' lists?

The quantity of lead required for printers' metal for the production of the voters' lists has already been released to the manufacturers.

14.

asked the Minister of National Service whether arrangements have been made to ensure a sufficient supply of labour for the preparation and printing of the voters' lists?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. As regards the preparation of the voters' lists, I am hopeful that a sufficient supply of labour will be forthcoming, although I am fully alive to the difficulties under which the Registration Officers are working. As regards the printing of the lists, I understand that my hon. Friend, the Secretary to the Treasury, will deal with this in reply to the right hon. Member's question, No. 25 in the Paper.

Does the right hon. Gentleman suppose that the printing will take longer than was originally expected?

25.

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether the Stationery Office authorities are satisfied that sufficient labour and metal will be available for the production of the voters' lists; and whether, in the event of either proving insufficient, printing firms con- tracting for such work will be allowed an extension of time in which to complete the lists without incurring penalties for delay?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the; affirmative; the second, therefore, docs not arise.

Oil Imports

11.

asked the Minister of Munitions whether the Director of Petroleum Munitions Supplies has set up a Committee to deal with the import of oil into this country; whether this Committee has on it two representatives of large American oil producers and has only one Scotsman representing the oil trade of that country; whether this Committee has arranged for an allotted space for oil imports in the vessels arriving in this country; that this allotted space is systematically given to the larger importers of oil, namely, those who in 1915 imported 100 barrels and upwards per month; that these large importers are practically the Committee themselves and their immediate friends, resulting: in the allotted space being given to fifty importers while 350 are entirely excluded, not being allowed any space at all; and whether he will see that a fair method is adopted whereby all importers will he, treated proportionately?

The Committee referred to was set up in March, 1916, by the then Minister of Munitions, and has satisfactorily discharged the task committed to it. The Committee consists of eleven members, who were chosen at a general meeting of the whole of the lubricating oil importers of the country. The Ministry had nothing to do with the selection of the members. The suggestion that the importation of lubricating oils is practically confined to the members of the Committee and their immediate friends is without foundation. It was decided on the 12th instant to hold a meeting next month, when the constitution of the Committee will be open to discussion.

Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)

12 and 13.

asked the Minister of Munitions (1) whether the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic), in making recent extensive alterations on their premises at Annan, asked the permission of the Dean of Guild Court; if not, will he explain why this course was not adopted; (2) whether he is aware of the unanimous resolution passed by the town council of Annan calling attention to the uncalled for and unnecessary expenditure of the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) in that burgh; and whether, when private citizens are requested to economise in every way, he can restrain this board from reckless extravagance?

I will answer these two questions together. I have seen the resolution to which my right hon. Friend refers. It gives no particulars of any item of expenditure to which exception is taken. If reference is intended to certain alterations, the permission of the Dean of Guild Court was not necessary. The local advisory committee, on which the town council is. well represented, considered the plans of the proposed improvements and strongly approved of the scheme. If reference is intended to the board's capital expenditure, the amount of this expenditure was settled, not by the board, but by the Scottish Division of the Defence of the Realm Losses (Licensed Trade Claims) Royal Commission.

Military Service

Protected Occupations

15.

asked the Minister of National Service if he will state what steps, if any, he is taking to secure the revision of protection certificates issued under the Schedules of Protected Occupations, and more particularly the certificates issued under the Munitions Area Recruiting Scheme, and known as Forms 3,476A, 3,476B, and 3,476 W.M.V.?

The Schedule of Protected Occupations was revised at the beginning of this year with the object of releasing for service a large number of fit men. The revised Schedule came into operation on 1st February, 1918, and a large number of certificates have already been withdrawn under it.

The Government have also given directions that with the exception of men en- gaged in an occupation for which an age limit of nineteen is fixed in the Schedule, Grade I. men born in 1898 and 1899 are not to be retained in Admiralty, War Office, or Munitions firms after the 17th of May, and Grade I. men born in 1895, 1896, or 1897 so employed are not to be retained after the 17th of June.

If it is found that the temporary retention of any men covered by these directions is absolutely essential to the output of munitions which are immediately required, such cases are to be referred to a Committee representing the Ministry of National Service, the War Office, and the Admiralty, or Ministry of Munitions, as the case may be.

The occupations for which nineteen age limit is fixed arc shipbuilding and repairing, Section A, and oil shale mining and shale oil works, Section B.

Are we to understand that there is no review of these protection certificates in the case of men over twenty-three years of age?

Yes; I think that is so. But the whole matter is a clean-cut operation and does not affect the other machinery for obtaining men.

One-Man Businesses

16.

asked the Minister of National Service if he will state whether he proposes to call up all single-man-business men or whether they will be called up to a certain age; and whether he can say what are the conditions under which these men will be called up?

The legal position of one-man business men is unchanged by the recent Military Service Act, except as regards the extension of the age to fifty. It is not proposed to withdraw the instructions concerning this class of man which were issued in December last to tribunals by the Local Government Board. So far as the national emergency permits, every attempt will be made by the Ministry of National Service to pursue its policy of safeguarding the interests of these men.

Arising out of that reply, will these men be sent into the Volunteers, as that seems a suitable position for them?

Liability Of Men Of Forty-Seven Years

17.

asked the Minister of National Service whether his attention has been drawn to a suggestion made by the chairman of the London Appeal Tribunal, on Thursday last, that an intimation should be given that men of forty-seven years of age and upwards liable for military service should not be called up until October next, except in the event of such a national emergency as is contemplated in Section 3 of the recent Military Service Act?

18 and 19.

I have seen the reports of the suggestion made by the Chairman of the London Appeal Tribunal (Sir Donald Maclean) and also heard his speech during the Committee stage of the Military Service Act, 1918 (2). As was explained by my right hon. Friend the Minister of National Service, the age of fifty was adopted after most careful consideration, and having in mind not only the reinforcement of the fighting services, but the maintenance so far as possible of the commercial fabric of the nation. It was also considered that the fixing of the age at fifty would assist in alleviating the inevitable personal hardships caused by the present grave crisis.

I regret, therefore, that it is not possible for the Government to depart from its considered policy, which was endorsed by both Houses of Parliament.

Schoolmasters

20.

asked the Minister of National Service whether he will state if it is proposed to call up under the new Bill head and assistant schoolmasters over the age of forty-one, in view of the present depleted state of the teaching profession?

The cases of schoolmasters who are liable for military service are the subject of administrative arrangements which have already been current for a long time. Instructions have been issued from time to time by the Minister of National Service, after consultation with the Board of Education and the Scottish Education Department, affording protection from recruitment to schoolmasters within certain limits as to age and medical grade. These instructions apply to men whose liability for military service arises under the new Act, and it is not intended to modify them without previous reference to the Departments above referred to.

Fire Brigades

21.

asked the Minister of National Service if ho will say what steps he proposes to take under the Military Service Act to protect the fire brigades from further depletion of officers and men, especially in the war zones, where fire brigades are now working at the lowest strength compatible with the public safety?

Men in public fire brigades are in a certified occupation, and no change is contemplated which would endanger the efficiency of this important public service.

Ex-Soldiers (Re-Enlistment)

22.

asked the Minister of National Service whether he is aware that there are men in this country of forty-two to forty-five years of age who have served for twenty to twenty-three years in the Army, who are physically fit yet for service, who have been offering themselves month after month to the War Office for further service, and who have been persistently refused by many officials of that Department; and will he say whether such men will be utilised in the present great demand for men?

I am not aware of any cases in which men referred to by my hon. Friend who are fit for service in the Army have been refused; and can assure him that no man within the ages stated who offers himself for re-enlistment will be refused by the Ministry of National Service, provided that he is physically fit for service and is not engaged in an occupation which makes his retention in civil life clearly desirable in the national interest.

With regard to that assurance, will the soldiers get the same rank that they last held, or will officers be asked to join the ranks?

I think my hon. Friend had better ask the War Office about that matter, which I am sure they have under their consideration.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the War Office has been refusing such men?

Older Recruits (Medical Examination)

23.

asked the Minister of National Service whether, in view of the necessity of more careful inquiry as to the health of the elder men to be called up under the new Military Service Act, he will arrange that the opinion of the private medical attendants of called-up men shall be taken more fully into consideration?

Under the Instructions issued to medical boards, M.N.S.R. 24, which have already been published, the boards are directed to give full consideration to medical certificates given by general practitioners or consultants, and I have every reason to believe that this Instruction is being fully carried out. The Instructions also provide that where necessary reference may be made to the man's usual medical attendant. It is intended to issue further special Instructions dealing with the medical examination and grading of the older men.

Income Tax Assessments

26.

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he can state, with reference to the taxation of the companies forming the Beef Trust, the amount lost to the Revenue through irregular demands being repeatedly made on the Hammond Company after a decision in the Courts in favour of the Crown; the amount lost through delays in making demands on the Armour Company; whether similar losses have been made in respect of other companies; and whether the parties responsible for these irregularities and delays are still dealing with the taxation of these companies?

I understand from the Board of Inland Revenue that they have no knowledge of any judicial decision in the case referred to. The Board are precluded by law from furnishing information relative to the Income Tax assessments upon particular taxpayers.

Electoral Registration

28.

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether forms are now being delivered by registration officers requiring householders to return the names of persons in their houses for purposes of registrations as electors; what instructions have been given with regard to the collection of these forms; whether the collectors have been instructed to check the correctness of the returns; what check there will be as to the forms that are returned by post; and what measures will be taken to ensure that such an inquiry will be made as will secure that no person entitled to be registered shall be omitted from the lists through mistake or neglect on the part of the householder in making his return?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. It will rest with the registration officer who is responsible for the compilation of the lists to make arrangements for such verification as may be necessary of the information contained in the form referred to, whether they are collected or returned by post. I may say, however, that in the memorandum of Instructions which I have issued I have expressed the view that a house-to-house inquiry will be necessary in practically every registration area. I will send my right hon. Friend a copy of these Instructions.

Air-Raid Shelters (Cost)

29.

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether the Metropolitan borough councils are being invited by the Commissioner of Police to construct protections for shelters against bombs during air raids; whether this will involve considerable expenditure; whether it has been represented to His Majesty's Government that the cost should fall upon the national Exchequer and not upon local rates; and whether he will advise the Treasury to make the necessary Grants for this purpose?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. The Commissioner of Police has recommended the local authorities in London to strengthen their air-raid shelters with sandbags, and the Government has undertaken to supply sandbags free of cost. This is the chief item of expenditure, and I think the remainder of the cost may well be borne by local funds in the Metropolis as it is in the rest of the country.

Arising out of that answer, may I ask if the chief ex- pense will not be labour, and whether in view of the national importance of the work the Government will pay out of the Treasury the amount expended on labour.

Can the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of employing German prisoners on this kind of work?

Royal Air Service

Aircraft Acceptance Park (Lancashire)

39.

asked the Under-Secretary of State to the Air Ministry whether he can state the total amount of money which has been spent upon an aircraft acceptance park in Lancashire; whether this park is still being used; and, if not, whether he can state the reasons for which it has been closed?

The total amount spent on this acceptance park, the name of which the hon. Member has been good enough to communicate to me privately, is about £15,000. It was formerly used both for the erection and storage of aeroplanes. It has not been closed, but is at present only used for storage. It is, however, intended to use it again at an early date for the erection of machines.

Air Ministry (Glasgow Hotel)

40.

asked the Under-Secretary of State to the Air Ministry whether his Department has last week commandeered another hotel in Glasgow, notwithstanding the statement by the Air Minister' that hotels are unsuitable buildings for conducting the business of Government Departments; if so, is he aware of the lack of hotel accommodation in that city for commercial men, and for inspectors and the like sent by Government Departments; does he know that large terrace houses can be got there uninhabited and in large numbers; and will he, in these circumstances, reconsider this matter?

No final decision has been arrived at as regards the taking over of this hotel, and it is hoped that it may be possible to find suitable accommodation elsewhere.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the Minister for Air made the statement that hotels were unsuitable buildings for the work?

I do not recall that. I have no doubt the hon. Member's memory is better than mine.

Resignations Of Sir D Henderson And Sir H Trenchard

51.

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the anxiety created by the resignations of the two officers of greatest experience in the Air Service from the Air Council; and whether he will give a day for discussion, in order that an adequate statement can be made on the administration of the Air Council and, if necessary, discussed?

If there is a general desire, the Government will be glad to afford an opportunity for this discussion, which probably would most conveniently take place on the Vote of the Salary for the Secretary of State for the Air Ministry.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the War Cabinet ever saw General Trenchard about his difficulties before the Government dispensed with his services?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the date will be for this discussion, because we do not want it to be postponed?

That would be hardly possible. It will have to be a Supply day, and the Supply days for this week are already allocated. It might, perhaps, be arranged for some day before Thursday of next week. I will consult my right hon. Friend.

Is it not possible to postpone the Munitions Vote and substitute the Air Ministry Vote?

There will be no objection on this side of the House to the postponement of the Munitions Vote.

I will see, then, if it is possible to arrange it for Thursday of this week.

British Prisoners Of War

30.

asked the hon. Member for Sheffield (Central Division) if his attention has been called to the case of Private J. Barry, 2nd Scots Guards, who was a prisoner of war in Germany for three and a half years and is reported to have been killed by his guard on the 18th January, 1918; and, if so, will he state what action it is; proposed to take?

The evidence received from British sources has been only hearsay. No action has yet been taken, as it is hoped that direct evidence will shortly be available. This will, it is thought, allow of a complete refutation of the statement on the subject received from the German Government.

Increase Of Rent, Etc (Restrictions), Bill

41.

asked the Minister of Reconstruction whether the Committee to inquire into the working of the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (War Restrictions) Act, 1915, has been appointed yet; and what provision has been made for the representation of the tenants' interests thereon?

47.

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that on the Committee recently set up to inquire into the working of the Rent, etc., Act of 1915, and rents after the War, a representative of the property owners' organisation has been appointed, but no representative of the tenants' organisation has been appointed; and if he will see that this distinction is remedied by the appointment of a representative of the tenants?

The Terms of Reference and the names of the members of this Committee were published in the Press a few days ago. The members of the Committee were selected on the basis not of the representation of particular interests but of their knowledge and experience of the problems to be inquired into, and I think my hon. Friend may rest assured that the Committee will lack neither knowledge of the tenants' interests nor sympathy with their difficulties.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that whilst property owners are represented the people who pay the rents have not a representative on the Committee at all?

The Vice-Chairman of the London County Council Housing Committee, who is probably the gentleman referred to, was chosen because of his experience there. I think the interests of the tenants are fully safeguarded in the presence of the right hon. Member for Woolwich and other members of the Committee.

is my right hon. Friend not aware that the gentleman who is a member of the London County Council is also the representative of the Property Owners' Association, and does he not think if a Committee is set up to get fair opinion the interests of the tenants can only be looked after by those who are well informed through having the organisation of the tenants at their disposal?

I did my best to appoint a Committee of people who will fairly represent the interests on both sides. I never expected to get a Committee which would please everyone.

Is it not usual, when you set up a Committee, to see that all the interests are represented if parties and interests are to be upon it at all?

There are no partisan interests. I am sure Mr. Rowntree, Mr. Crooks, and Mr. Neville will adequately represent the interests of the tenants.

Is my right hon. Friend not aware that one gentleman on that Committee is the representative of the property owners, and negotiated with the Local Government Board on that side during the whole of the communications in connection with the Rent Act?

Having learnt that fact, will the right hon. Gentleman now take steps to have a representative of the tenants upon the Committee?

No; I cannot undertake to do that. This gentleman was not appointed because of that. I was not aware that he had done that work, and I have declined altogether at all times to appoint people on these Committees, because they represent particular interests.

Would it not have been better in getting a representative of the London County Council to choose the Chairman of the Housing Committee instead of the Vice-Chairman?

Sittings Of The House (Eleven O'clock Rule)

45.

asked the Prime Minister if he is aware that a good number of the late trains have been cut off, and, in consequence, whether he can see his way clear to alter the Eleven o'Clock Rule to Ten o'Clock, with a view to meeting the convenience of a large number of the Members of the House?

As I said, in answer to a previous question, I hardly think that there would be any general desire in the House to make the proposed change.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Board of Trade is advising people to cut down gas and electric light, and would not this be a means of cutting down the supply of this House? Should not we set an example to other people?

Of course, in a matter of this kind, the Government would desire, as far as it could, to meet the wishes of the House, but we have to get through business. I have made inquiries of the President of the Board of Trade, and he tells me there has been no diminution of the means of locomotion around London which would necessitate such n change.

Could we not make a Rule during the War that speeches should be shorter?

I think it would be a good thing if there was such a Rule, but I should hardly like to suggest it.

Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to consult all Members of the House as to whether we should or should not cut down the hour at night?

I cannot say more than I have said. We certainly desire to meet the wishes of the House, but I think the additional hour would be required for business. To meet earlier would obviously have many disadvantages. It would be very disadvantageous to members of the Government to have an hour less in the morning for their business, and I think it would be disadvantageous to Members of the House.

Naval And Military Pensions And Grants

36.

asked the Pensions Minister whether the issue of allowances to discharged men whilst they are waiting training is contemplated; and, if so, whether he will state the conditions upon which such allowances will be issued?

As I stated in reply to the question put to me by the hon. and learned Member for South Salford on the 21st March, the payment of allowances to men awaiting training has been sanctioned. I am sending the hon. and gallant Member a copy of the circular issued to local committees, in which the conditions governing the allowances are explained.

37.

asked the Pensions Minister whether he is aware that Mr. V. H. Harris, late No. T.R. 3/29240, 70th Training Reserve Battalion, has been informed by the Superintendent, Pension Issue Office, Baker Street, W. 1, that for the period from 20th July, 1017, to 21st March, 1918, an overpayment of £24 10s. has been made to him in consequence of the concurrent issue of special temporary allowance and pensions; that this over payment vas due to his being incorrectly described in the notification authorising the issue to him of special temporary allowance; that a refund of the £24 10s. is now claimed; and whether, in view of the fact that overpayment was due to no neglect on the part of this discharged soldier and that he is only able to work irregularly, he will lake steps to have the claim cancelled?

The facts are as stated. Mr. Harris was, however, informed when the special temporary allowance was sent to him that this allowance was payable until his claim for pension had been decided. He still continued to receive the allowance after his pension was awarded, although he should have been aware that he was not entitled to receive both allowance and pension at the same time. Recovery of the over-issue is now being made from current pension at the rate of Is. 6d. per week, and I see no reason for interfering with this arrangement.

Repatriation Agreement (Mercantile Marine Officers)

31.

asked the hon. Member for Sheffield (Central Division) whether he can say if the difference of opinion with the German Government as to the status of all officers of the mercantile marine interned in this country and in Germany has now been settled; whether there are still fifty-four officers of the British mercantile marine still interned in Ruhleben over forty-five years of age who are entitled to repatriation under the agreement arrived at on the 2nd January, 1917; whether ho can state how many German officers of the German mercantile marine are still interned in this country awaiting repatriation under the same agreement; and when he anticipates this exchange will be completed?

I regret to have to state that the difference of opinion with the German Government has not yet been settled. Approximately, 100 ships' officers over the age of forty-five are still interned at Ruhleben, including engineers and officers of trawlers and fishing vessels. I understand that between eighty and ninety German ships' officers of the like age are interned in civilian camps here who were captured before November, 1916. The figures of those captured after that date are, unfortunately, not at present available. The repatriation of the above-mentioned officers is proceeding, and I have no reason to suppose that they will not be sent home as fast as the claims of other classes of prisoners and shipping facilities admit.

Secretary Of State For War

Lord Milker's Appointment

46.

asked the Prime Minister if he will afford the House an early opportunity of discussing the appointment of Lord Milner as Secretary of State for War?

As I stated on Thursday last, the Government are willing to meet the convenience of the House, and if a general desire is expressed no doubt an arrangement can be made to take this Vote.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how the convenience of the House can be ascertained?

With regard to Supply, the rule has been that the Vote is chosen practically by the Opposition.

Would it not be in the public interest before a discussion of this kind is taken if there could be some announcement on the part of the Government as to the changes made in the Government?

Home Rule Bill

48 and 49.

asked the Prime Minister (1) whether he is aware that upwards of 900 farmers from the three southern provinces, most of them comprising the new landowning class in Ireland, have already signed a protest against the introduction of Home Rule, in. view of the existing situation in Ireland; have the Government taken into consideration the position in which the many thousands of newly-created small landowners will be placed if authority for the maintenance of law and order is transferred from an Imperial to a Home Rule Executive; (2) whether ho has received, and read, a protest from many thousands of residents in the southern provinces of Ireland against the application of any measure of Home Rule to Ireland, in view of the present state of lawlessness and disloyalty of the part of the country in which they reside; and has he been able to state, in reply, that the Imperial Parliament will make a grant of any measure of self-government to Ireland contingent on the restoration of law and order?

Has the Prime Minister received a protest, and, if so, has he read it?

I am afraid I must ask my right hon. Friend the specific question as to whether he has read it. I have no doubt the has received it.

Has the right hon. Gentleman read the statement which the hon. and gallant Member for Galway made to his constituents yesterday, that the establishment of Home Rule will be a permanent safeguard against Conscription?

50.

asked the Prime Minister if he will, as promised, bring in immediately the Home Rule Bill with a view to its speedily becoming law, and, if so, at what date?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I regret that i am not yet in a position to name a date.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is the intention of the Government not to conscript Irishmen until the Home Rule Bill has passed its various stages?

Contracts (Treasury Committee)

52.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will publish, on or before 24th April, the Report of the Treasury Committee on Contracts, presided over by Lord Inchcape?

In order to enable the Government to decide on the Committee's recommendations, I have sought and am awaiting expressions of the views of Departments concerned. Meantime I am not prepared to adopt the suggestion of the hon. and gallant Member.

Gold Output

53.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that several companies producing gold from low-grade ore, which in pre-war time could be worked at a profit, are now compelled to close down, while others are threatened with the like fate; and, if so, whether His Majesty's Government proposes by way of bonus per ounce or by recoupment of excess cost of working expenses, or in such other manner as may appear feasible or desirable, to prevent any reduction in the production of gold at a time when such production is of national importance, and to compensate companies which produce under the present circumstances of increased charges for labour and materials, and consequently of ever-increasing cost of production, so that they may be placed in the same position as the producers of all other commodities, who receive higher prices, while gold alone, as the standard of value, obtains no apprecation in this respect?

The question raised by my hon. Friend is receiving careful consideration, but I am not at present in a position to make any statement on the subject.

Dental Service (Egypt And Salonika)

54.

asked the Under-Secretary for War if his attention has been drawn to a certain rest camp largely used by soldiers operating in Egypt and Salonika which has accommodation for 20,000 men, and where the floating military population varies from 9,000 to 15,000; and, if so, will he say whether the services of more than one fully-qualified dental surgeon are available for the dental needs of this number of men?

I am inquiring by telegraph into this matter, and will communicate with my hon. Friend as soon as possible.

Wearing Of Emblems

56.

asked the Under-Secretary for War whether the Army Council will issue an Order authorising all English soldiers to wear the rose or a small St. George's flag on St. George's Day and all Welsh soldiers to wear the leek or daffodil on St. David's Day, whatever unit they may be serving in and irrespective of whether the commanding officer of the unit has or has not applied to the Army Council for such permission; and whether he is aware that a similar concession to that now asked for has been granted to all Irish soldiers by the Army Council and to all English sailors by the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty?

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to my reply, on the 16th instant, to a written question by ray hon and gallant Friend the Member for Maidstone, from which he will see that Instructions of the nature suggested in the question have already been issued.

Appeal Tribunal For Officers

57.

asked the Under-secretary for War whether he is prepared to institute an Appeal Tribunal consisting of three experienced officers, who will be prepared to hear appeals from officers who are condemned to forfeit their commissions; and whether these appeals can be heard and reported upon before a definite decision is taken by the Secretary of State for War?

This question will arise on the Report stage of the Army (Annual) Bill this afternoon. Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend will wait till then.

Army Commissions

58.

asked the present procedure for the granting of commissions in His Majesty's Army; whether any restrictions have been placed upon the entry of cadets to officers' training corps; and what facilities are available to young officers undergoing training of commanding units and handling bodies of men?

The Regulations for granting commissions in His Majesty's Army through the Royal Military Academy and Royal Military College are published from time to time in Army Orders. During the present War temporary commissions are granted, after a period of training in officer cadet units, under conditions which vary according to the exigencies of the Service. No restrictions have been placed during the War on the entry to senior and junior contingents of the officers' training corps. Everything possible is done to give young officers an opportunity of commanding platoons at training.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether any steps have been taken to bring the training of these corps under modern requirements in the way of military training?

59.

asked the Under secretary for War whether commissions are now being granted to non-commissioned officers who are not recommended by their commanding officers; whether instructions have been sent to the commanding officers to the effect that they must forward the names of at least two non-commissioned officers for commissions irrespective of their fitness to hold such positions; and, if so, whether he is pre pared to modify this arrangement to avoid giving commissions to unsuitable candidates?

The reply to the first part of my hon. and gallant Friend's question is in the negative. I am not aware of such instructions having been sent to commanding officers, and every step is being taken to prevent commissions being granted to unsuitable candidates.

Colonel Repington

60.

asked the Under secretary for War whether he is aware that, during recent Police Court proceedings, Colonel A'Court Repington, who is a retired officer, appeared in the uniform of a military officer; whether Police Court proceedings are regarded as military ceremonial; and whether, in view of the present uncertainty in the minds of re tired officers, he will give a definition of the term "military ceremonial"?

With regard to the first part of my hon, and gallant-Friend's question, my attention has not, so far as I can recollect, previously been drawn to the matter. As regards the latter part of the question, Police Court proceedings are not, of course, regarded as military ceremonial, but I think my hon. and gallant Friend is under a misapprehension in stating that uncertainty exists in the minds of retired officers on the subject. Any function carried out under military arrangements at which it is incumbent upon officers on the active list to appear in uniform is a military ceremonial.

Is it not the case that Colonel Repington is a member of a military tribunal?

I do not know. If the hon. and gallant Member will put down a question, I will ask.

Retired Officers (Outfit Allowance On Recall)

61.

asked the Under secretary of State for War if he is aware that, at the outbreak of the present War and up to the 4th December, 1914, retired officers recalled to duty were granted an outfit allowance of £100 under paragraph 671, Allowance Regulations, 1914, and that those retired officers who were recalled to duty after 4th December, 1914, were granted an outfit allowance of £50 only; and whether he will state the reason of this inequality?

The facts are as stated. It was found that £50 was a sufficient grant towards the cost of uniform as required for this War.

Gas Cases (Ozone Treatment)

62.

asked the Under-Secretary for War whether his attention has now been called to the treatment of cases of gassing by inhalations of ozone generated from atmospheric air as distinct from the treatment by the use of pure oxygen, and as employed by Major George Stoker, C.M.G., Royal Army Medical Corps, and described by him; whether he is aware that this treatment has produced excellent results; and whether he will take steps in order that it may be extensively used?

This method of treatment has been under trial for some time, but the results so far have not been such as to justify its general adoption. It is still under trial, and, if the results indicate the advisability of doing so, its use will be adopted, but up to date its efficacy is not proved.

In the answer which the hon. Gentleman gave last week he said the officers at the War Office at that time had never heard of the treatment of gas cases in this way.

I am afraid the fault may have been mine, because I left out certain words. We had heard of it.

Orders Of The Day

Ways And Means

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

Financial Statement

in submitting to the House of Commons a financial statement on a scale far exceeding any that has ever been known at any time or in any country, my one desire is to present the position as clearly and as briefly as I can. There is, however, so much to explain that I fear I must on this occasion make a greater demand not only on the indulgence but on the time of the House than I have made before.

Expenditure 1917–18

The essential figures of last year's position are in the Blue Paper which is now in the hands of Members. From that statement it will be seen that the total expenditure has exceeded the Estimate by £403,000,000, while the Votes of Credit have exceeded the Estimate by £427,000,000. The difference between the two figures is caused almost entirely by saving on the Debt charge. That was owing in the main to the fact that Treasury Bills were sold at a lower rate than was anticipated. As regards the excess on the Estimate for the Votes of Credit, I have so often explained, or endeavoured to explain, this to the House that I shall not occupy time in regard to it now beyond pointing out that, of the total excess, £200,000,000 represents dead-weight charge, and the remainder is expenditure which ought to be recoverable. As regards the dead-weight charge of this year, £155,000,000 is represented by the Army Estimates. As regards the other item, £139,000,000 is represented in the main by foodstuffs and other commodities which will conic back when the accounts are settled. The balance consists of an excess in the advances to the Allies of nearly £89,000,000.

Advances By United States

The House will perhaps remember that, when I presented the Budget Statement a year ago, I pointed out that America had just entered the War, and that it would not be possible to make any adequate forecast as to what our advances to the Allies would be. I said then that I was certain that the Government of the United States would assist the Allies financially to the full extent of their ability, and I am glad to say that that expectation has been realised to the full. In spite of the assistance of the United States, our advances to the Allies last year amounted to £505,000,000 sterling. That is taking the face value of the obligations, and not the cash advanced. In addition to this the United States have advanced to the Allies no less a sum during the year than £950,000,000 sterling. Of this amount approximately £500,000,000 were advanced to us, and £450,000,000 to the Allies. The House will see, therefore, that whereas this year we advanced to the Allies approximately the same as last year—£505,000,000, as against £540,000,000—the United States advanced, in addition, £450,000,000—that is to say, the total advances to the Allies by us and by the Government of the United States were £955,000,000, as against £540,000,000 advanced by us alone last year. This will show the Committee how enormously the financial needs of the Allies have increased, and how timely, and indeed necessary, was the financial assistance which has come from the United States. But the Committee will have noticed, on the figures I have given, that our advances to the Allies were in the year approximately of the same amount as the advances made to us by the Government of the United States. This is satisfactory. It means that it is only necessary for us to lean on the United States to the extent that the other Allies lean upon us. In other words, after nearly four years of the War, we are self-supporting. This is important from another point of view also, as showing that, in spite of these advances, the net amount of indebtedness outside these Islands has practically not increased.

But there is something anomalous in this arrangement. It is almost, in a sense, absurd that we should be borrowing with one hand, while we are lending with the other. The result of that is that our accounts are inflated apparently—that, in fact, to that extent our credit is weakened. I have, therefore, been in communication with Mr. McAdoo, the Financial Minister of the United States, on this subject, and Mr. Crosby, the head of the Financial Mission of the United States to Europe, is on the point of returning to Washington to consult his Government, and I am making to him certain suggestions as regards advances to the Allies, which, if adopted, will have the effect of lessening to a certain extent our burdens, while in no way increasing the total obligations of the United States. From the way in which not only the United States Government, but Mr. McAdoo himself, has shown every desire to co-operate both with us and the other Allied Governments, I am sure that he will give these suggestions most sympathetic consideration.

Revenue 1917–18

Now I come to the Revenue side of our account for last year. The House will see from the Blue Paper that there has been an excess under every head of taxation. There has been an excess in the amount received from the Excess Profits Duty of £20.000.000. and I may add that, of the total receipts from that duly, upwards of £30,000,000 came from the controlled firms. The other excesses of large amount have come from the Income Tax and the Super-tax, which together showed an excess of £15,500,000. I shall not go over the other items, which will all be detailed in a White Paper, some copies of which will be available in the Library as soon as I have finished, while copies will be in the hands of every Member to-morrow morning. I may say, in passing, that the Entertainments Tax has yielded £5,000,000 sterling, or nearly £500,000 more than the Estimate, in spite of the fact that the increased duty was put in force three months later than was intended, and that some reduction was made in the scale when the Finance Bill was passing through the House. I should also like to call attention to another item of Revenue, and I do this because of something I shall have to say in a later portion of my speech. The revenue from tobacco shows a virtual increase over the Estimate of last year of no less than £1,700.000. Perhaps the Committee may notice, in looking at the Blue Paper, that there is an excess in miscellaneous items of £25,000,000. That is accounted for entirely by the fact that the Government of India undertook to provide, as a war contribution, by loan or obligation, £100,000.000. It was estimated that only something like £10,000,000 could be raised in India by loan, whereas, as a matter of fact, the large sum of £35,000,000 was raised in India. It is gratifying to find that there has been this excess in revenue—an excess which has characterised every Budget Estimate since the beginning of the War. It is, of course, satisfactory as showing the prosperity for the time being of our trade and industry, but I do not wish the House to attach too much importance to it, for I have said more than once in this House that so long as money is being raised by borrowing, to whatever extent it may be, there must be at least apparent prosperity, and the real test of our financial position will come when this borrowing ceases and we have to fall back on ordinary methods.

Canada

Before leaving last year, there is one subject connected with Canadian finance which I think it will interest the House to hear. We have obtained from the Canadian Government credit in dollars for purchases which we made in Canada; on the other hand, we have supplied to the Canadian Government sterling credit for purchases made by them in Europe. So far, these items have been treated separately; that is to say, they have both appeared in our accounts—our purchases in Canada, and the sterling advanced by us for the purchases of the Canadian Government in Europe—as off-sets. It seems to me this is not the right method. It is really a question of exchange, and the right way is to bring only the excess between the two countries into our accounts. I communicated with the Canadian Finance Minister in this sense, and I have received a telegram from him, through the Governor-General, in which he agrees with the alteration I propose. The effect of this will be apparent to the Committee. Up to the present the total amount treated in this way is at least £80.000,000. When I he adjustments are made, the effect will be that both the nominal amount of our debt and the debt of the Canadian Government will be diminished to that extent. It is not possible, with an arrangement so recently agreed to to include it in the accounts I submit to-day. Of course, it is a question of book-keeping, and makes no difference in the net results that I shall present to the Committee.

I should like to take this opportunity of expressing the appreciation of the Government, which I am sure will be shared by the House of Commons, of the hearty spirit of co-operation which has been shown by the Canadian Government, not only in this, but in every other question connected with finance. I may say, also, that, whereas in the early stages of the War our loans to the Dominion Government exceeded what they lent to us, now, thanks to the exertions which they have recently made, the balance is the other way.

Balance Sheet 1917–18

In connection with last year's finance, there is only one other topic to which I should like to refer. My right hon. Friend, who preceded me as Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. McKenna), laid down the rule which ought to guide our financial arrangements, and which I adopted and tried to carry out last year. That rule, stated simply, was this, that in presenting every Budget the Chancellor of the Exchequer should aim to produce such a result that, on the assumption that the War came to an end at the close of the year for which the financial statement was made, there would be a sufficient revenue without new borrowing or new taxation to make sure that not only the expenditure left after the War, but the Debt charge could be met. My Budget last year was designed to obtain that result. During the year, as the House may remember, suggestions were made that, in view of the excess of expenditure over my Estimate, my object could not be realised. In October, after going thoroughly into the matter, and forming the best estimate I could as to what the revenue from taxation would be, I stated in the House I was satisfied that the Estimate made at the beginning of the year would be realised. I shall not now go into this subject, which is more important from the point of view of the financial statement for the current year, but I may state briefly to the Committee at once that the Estimate I gave in October has been realised. Owing to the increased expenditure our Debt charge has increased to the extent of £13,500,000. On the other hand, the excess of permanent revenue last year, as compared with the Estimate, was £20,500,000, so that on balance the position is better by £7,000,000 than I estimated at the beginning of the present year. The total balance sheet for last year is given in the Blue Paper. Perhaps I ought to state what the particulars are. The issues last year were £2,696,221,000; the Revenue, £707,235,000, leaving a balance to be borrowed of £1,988,986,000.

Expenditure 1918–19

I come now to the current year. As regards the expenditure, all the items are in the Blue Paper with the exception of the amounts of the Votes of Credit and the Debt charge. As regards the Votes of Credit, I should like to call attention to this fact, or what seems to me to be the fact. A suggestion is sometimes made, or implied, that the soundness with which our finances are conducted is to be judged by the nearness, or the reverse, with which results correspond to the Estimate. That, I think, under present conditions, is an entire fallacy, and if any hon. Member had the duty, which has fallen upon me, of estimating for the coming year, he would say, I am sure, that in this view I am right. In ordinary times the Estimates are based on specific demands which can be dealt with, but in time of war, not only are the demands varied by the exigencies of the War, but in reality the demands of the fighting forces arc limited only by the possible supplies, and that is a factor which no foresight can tell in advance. With this preface, I come now to the Estimate of the Vote of Credit for next year. I may say, however, that while I think it would be almost impossible, indeed absurd, for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to alter the Estimates given by the fighting forces, there are some general considerations which ought to be taken into account, and, though this is making a prophesy which the event may very likely falsify, I have myself come to the conclusion that, as we have nearly reached the possible limits of supply in this country, the probability is that the Estimates this year will not be greatly exceeded. The Estimate for Votes of Credit for next year is £2,550,000,000, as against an actual expenditure last year of £2,403,000,000. It is at the rate of £6,986,000 per day, as against a daily average expenditure last, year of £6,583,000. All the details which can properly be given will be contained in the White Paper relating to the Vote. I shall give only the amounts for the Army, Navy, Munitions, and Air Services which are put down. The Estimate for next year is £1,861,000,000, against an expenditure last year of, approximately, £1,560,000,000. Another item, of which we have to make an Estimate, is the advances to the Allies. For the reason I have already given—the possibility of an alteration in the system of advances between the United States and ourselves—this Estimate can be only a guess, but we put it down at £300,000,000, whereas the amount which we allow for advances to the Dominions is £50,000,000. I should like to remind the Committee how small throughout the War this amount has kept, showing how great has been the desire and how great the success, not only of Canada, to which I have already referred, but of all the other Dominions to meet their own War expenditure out of their own resources.

The only other item of expenditure not included in the Blue Paper is the Debt charge. This amount is put at £315,000,000, of which £53,000,000 is estimated as being required, to meet obligations to be incurred during the coming year.

Balance Sheet 1918X2013;19

I shall now give the balance sheet for the present year. In the ordinary course, the logical way of presenting this balance sheet would be to give, first, the new taxation proposed, and, after it had been stated, to make up the Estimate in that way. I am not, however, going to adopt that course. New taxation is the natural peroration of a Budget speech, because it is the part in which the Committee and the country take the greatest interest, and, though in ordinary speeches I never bother about perorations, yet here I think I must adopt the course of giving the new taxation last. I shall, therefore, in making up this balance sheet, give the total amount which I estimate to receive from new taxation, without going into details. With this explanation let me give the figures.

The total expenditure we estimate at £2,972,197,000. The Revenue on the existing basis of taxation will be £774,250,000, or an excess over last year of £67,000,000. I may add, as it will interest the Committee, that the Estimate for next year of the Excess Profits Duty is no less a sum than £300,000,000 sterling. The new taxation which I propose will, for the coming year it is estimated, amount to £67,800,000. That will make the total Revenue for the year £842,050,000, leaving a balance to be covered by borrowing of £2,130,147,000.

Post-War Position

I desire to discuss now what seems to me the most important feature in a Budget statement at the present time—that is what our position will be at the end of the year on a peace basis, following the rule which was originally introduced by my predecessor. That rule, as I have said, implies that at the end of the Budget year we shall have Revenue sufficient to meet all normal expenditure and the Debt charge without new taxation or new borrowing. I venture to say that, whatever difference of opinion there may be on other aspects of finance, no one will doubt that, as long as it is humanly possible for the country to live up to that standard, it is our absolute duty to see that it is carried out. Starting on this basis, this is the calculation: Our pre-war expenditure was £173,000,000 sterling, excluding service of Debt, but it is evident that, apart from Debt charge, we must add a large item to that amount. There is the amount required for pensions, which at the end of the year cannot fall far short of £50,000,000. There is the addition which the House has already sanctioned for education. There is the normal growth which has taken place, even during the War, owing to a variety of causes due to the War, and there must be other expenses for which some allowance ought to be, made. I have, therefore, added to the pre-war expenditure a total sum for these purposes of £97,000,000, which seems to me adequate in this calculation. That will make our expenditure, apart from the Debt charge, £270,000,000 per annum.

National Debt

4.0 P.M.

I now come to the Debt. The National Debt, from the Estimates I have submitted to the Committee will, at the end of the present year—31st March, 1919—amount to £7,980,000,000, Previously, in counting our liabilities, I have deducted altogether the advances to the Allies and to the Dominions. I do not propose to take that course to-day. We cannot ignore what has happened in Russia, though even now I do not admit, and do not believe, that we should regard the debt of Russia as a bad debt, because sooner or later, in spite of what is happening now, and whether Russia should or should not be divided, there will be an ordered Government in that country. The natural resources of Russia are great. Those resources can only be exploited with the aid of capital, and, whenever there is a Government, foreign capital will be required, and they will realise that it will be unobtainable unless previous debts are paid. It is very necessary, I think, in dealing with the national accounts, to treat them in the same way as a business firm would treat its own accounts, and for the time being we must make allowance not only for what is happening in Russia, but for the possibility that at the time the War ends we may not be able to rely on receiving immediately the interest due to us by all our Allies. In making this calculation, therefore, I propose to take off half the debt of the Allies as if that were our liability. At the end of next year the total debt due by the Allies to us will be £1,632.000,000. I propose to deduct half of that, namely, £816,000,000. I deduct also the debt due by the Dominions in full, £244,000,000, and the obligation of India in full, £64,000,000, making a total of £1,124,000,000. That would make on this basis a Debt for which we would be liable of £6,856,000,000, and I will say in passing—I have not mentioned it before—the gross amount of our National Debt at the end of last year was approximately £5,850,000,000, or, taking it in the same way, £4,926,000,000 net liability. The amount of our liability at 31st March next will be, as I have said, on this basis, £6,856l,000,G00. Take 5½ per cent. on this amount as the rate of Interest and Sinking-Fund, the total comes in round figures to £380,000,000. This, added to the normal expenditure, makes a total amount to be paid out of Revenue of £650,000,000.

How is that to be met? Taking the existing taxation alone, my advisers have given me as an estimate £540,000,000. They have made that estimate carefully, but, of course, it does include a. recovery from the absence of war conditions. It includes recovery of Customs and Excise and some increase in Inland Revenue. As regards the latter, the income on our gross debt itself adds to the revenue we receive, but, however conservative that estimate may be, it is obvious that mistake is possible, though, as I have said, it has been made with the utmost care, and on the whole on a conservative basis. Taking this estimate, there remains a deficiency to be met, if we arc to fulfil the conditions which I have laid down, by new taxation on the full year of £110,000,000. We become so used to these enormous figures that, possibly we can hardly realise what this means; but the Committee will realise, when I remind them that this addition to taxation which I propose this year is something well over 60 per cent. of the total tax revenue in the last year before the War. To make good this deficit of £110,000,000, I shall propose new taxation which in a full year will bring in £114,000,000, without taking account of another tax for which I have made no estimate, and to which I shall refer later.

National Assets

Now that is the position on that basis. I think the House will recognise that it is a fair estimate, but our position is really better even than these figures show. In the first place, the Inland Revenue, in their estimate of the. result of existing taxation, took no account whatever of the Excess Profits Duty, but, that duty, as I have pointed out, is expected to yield next year £300,000,000. On the assumption, which may last for half an hour, of the Income Tax remaining at 5s., the Income Tax on what is now charged to Excess Profits Duty would represent £75,000,000. Of course, that must be problematical. It depends on the state or trade and credit, but I think I am quite safe in assuming that that amount which was left out of their estimate is more than sufficient to counterbalance any possible error they have made in the estimate of existing taxation. But there are. other items. I stated on one of the recent Votes of Credit that, before the Budget came on, I should endeavour to obtain a clear list of undoubted assets of the nation to-day. I have done it. They are divided into three categories. The first category consists of balances with our financial agents, of debts due by our Allies and Dominions—not Loans, but in respect of goods or services which we have supplied to them, and where the amount is regulated as soon as the accounts can be completed—and, in addition, commodities, including foodsuffs and things of that kind which are bought to be resold. The total amount under this category is no less than. £375,000,000, and it is not taken at cost. This amount is arrived at after careful calculation as to what could reasonably be expected would be obtained from it. I think the House can safely take that as an asset upon which we can absolutely rely.

The second category of assets consists of land securities, buildings, and ships. Here, again, the calculation given to me is not at cost. It is an estimate of the amount which can reasonably be expected to be realised on sale. The estimate is a conservative one, and again I think this amount can be taken at its face value. It is £97,000,000. Then there is a third category, made up of stores of all kinds, chiefly in the Munitions Department. It includes, however, war materials, the selling value of which is doubtful. This item is taken at cost, and the figure given to me is £325,000,000. It is obvious that the Belling value under this category is very uncertain, but I think I am safe in assuming that it will be worth at least £100,000,000. That brings the total amount of assets to £572,000,000. But this calculation was made only to the end of last year. This kind of piling up of assets will be going on during the year, and estimates are made for it in the Budget. I am safe, therefore, in assuming that there will be at least an additional £100,000,000 at the end of the current year. That will mean a total of assets of this kind amounting to £672,000,000.

But there is another and a bigger item. When the Excess Profits Duty comes to an end—this calculation is made on the assumption, which I am sure will prove correct, whatever Government or House of Commons is then existing, that the duty will be allowed to go on until the end of the accounting period after peace is declared—on this assumption the total amount of income due from the Excess Profits Duty, if the War ends at the end of the current year, would be in the following and subsequent years no less than £560,000,000. But, as the Committee knows, this tax has always been treated, both by my predecessor and by myself, as one which should be adjusted, to some extent, over the whole period. It is possible, therefore, that deductions might be. necessary from that amount, but I think I am safe in assuming that we can count on additional revenue from this source of £500,000,000. This makes a total of these assets, including arrears of taxation, £1,172,000.000, or between £300,000,000 and £400.000.000 more than the total amount for which we have taken credit in the obligations of our Allies to us.

War Expenditure And Revenue

There is one other fact intermixed with the accounts which, I think, will interest the Committee, and that is the proportion of our expenditure which has been borne out of Revenue. So far up to the end of last year, 31st March, 1918 (four years), the proportion of total expenditure borne out of Revenue was 26.3 per cent., and for the year 1917–18, alone, it was practically the same figure. For 1918–19, on the Estimates which I am now submitting to the House, the proportion of total expenditure met out of Revenue will be 28.3 per cent., and the proportion calculated over the whole period to the end of the current year (five years) will be 26.9. But perhaps some hon. Members will recollect that last year a distinction was drawn between the proportion of total expenditure and the proportion of war expenditure. The calculation was made on the basis of deducting on each side £200,000,000 as representing the normal expenditure and Revenue and leaving out the advances to the Allies and Dominions. I shall give the figures calculated in this way, though, as a matter of fact, I think the proportion of total expenditure is the more natural and more important way of looking at it. Taking that method of calculation, the proportion of war expenditure, met out of war revenue, up to 31st March, 1918—that is, four years—was 21.7 per cent. For the year 1917-–18 alone it was 25.3 per cent. For the current year it will be 26.5 per cent., or, for the whole period up to the end of the current year (five years), it will be 23.3 per cent.

I shall conclude this section by stating the total amount which has been raised by war revenue. The total war revenue raised up to the end of last year was £1,044,000,000. On the basis of the Estimates now before the House, by the end of the current year it will have reached £1,686,000,000.

This concludes my examination of the financial figures for the current year. I have tried to put them to the House exactly as they are—to put the situation without making it too favourable. The calculations have all been made on a basis against us rather than in our favour. I am inclined to say this, and I think the House will agree with me, that, looking at these figures, looking at what the figures will be at the end of the year, the financial strength of this country, after five years of war, will be far greater than anyone could have expected in advance. These results are, I think, an amazing testimony to the financial stability of this country.

German Finance

Perhaps—although it is not absolutely necessary, for it does not come into the financial statement—the House would like me to make a contrast, so far as I am able to do so, between our financial position and that of Germany. If is not easy to to make this calculation. Our figures throughout have been presented with the object of showing quite clearly what is our financial position. That has not been the object of German financial statements. It is, therefore, difficult to make an exact statement, but in what I am going to say to the House I am taking the German Estimates at their face value—taking, that is to say, the statements of the German Finance Ministers themselves.

The first point is as regards the increase of expenditure. We have all been alarmed, and justly so, at the rate at which our expenditure has steadily grown. It is true also of Germany. Up to June, 1916, as we were told by the German Finance Minister, their monthly expenditure was at the rate of £100,000,000. It has now, by their own statement, risen to upwards of £187,000,000. That means that their daily expenditure is £6,250,000—almost the same as ours—although our expenditure includes such items, for instance, as separation allowances and other matters of that kind borne by the States and municipalities in Germany, and which are not taken into account in the German figures.

The second point of German finance, to which I wish to direct the attention of the House, is their war debt. Their last Vote of Credit, which was estimated to carry them on to June or July, brings the total amount of all their Votes of Credit to £6,200,000,000, and, as I shall show, it is at least certain that that amount has been added to their war debt. That is certain, because their taxation has not covered peace expenditure, and in addition, their debt charge. Up to 1916 they imposed no new taxation. In 1916 they imposed a War Increment Tax, taking something in the nature of a capital levy, which is stated to have brought in £275,000,000. They added also that year £25,000,000, nominally, to their permanent revenue. In 1917 they added, in addition, £40,000,000 to their permanent revenue. Assuming, therefore, that their estimates were realised, the total amount of new taxation levied by them since the beginning of the War comes to £365,000,000, as against our £1,044,000,000. This £365,000,000 is not enough to pay the interest upon the war debt which had been accumulated up to the end of the year.

Look at the third consideration in regard to their finance. Consider what their balance sheet will be a year hence on the same basis on which I have put ours. Their war debt at that time will be not less than £8,000,000,000. The interest on that will be at least £400,000,000; sinking fund at ½ per cent. will be £40,000,000; their pension engagements, which, of course, must be much higher than ours, have been estimated at various amounts. Some give it as high as £200,000,000. I am sure I am within the mark in saying that by the end of the year that amount will be at least £150,000,000. Their normal pre-war expenditure was £130,000,000. That makes a total expenditure of £720,000,000. Their pre-war revenue was £150,000,000. They have announced their intention of this year raising additional permanent Imperial revenue amounting to £120,000,000. From the nature of the taxes it seems very difficult to believe that this amount will be realised, but, assuming that it is, it will make their total additional revenue £185,000,000. That, added to the pre-war revenue, gives a total of £335,000,000, showing a deficit at the end of this year, comparing the revenue with the expenditure, of £385,000,000 at least. If that were our position, I should certainly think that bankruptcy was not far from the British Government.

But there is something else in connection with their taxation worthy of note. With the exception of the Increment War Tax, to which I have referred, scarcely any of the additional revenue has been obtained from the wealthier classes in Germany. Taxation has been indirect, and on commodities which are paid for by the masses of the people. The lesson to be drawn from these facts is not difficult to see. The rulers of Germany, in spite of their hopes of an indemnity, must recognise that financial stability is one of the elements of national strength. They have not added to their financial stability. The reason, I think, is largely psychological. It is, in the first place, because they do not care to add to the discontent by increased taxation all over the country; but it is still more due to this, that in Germany the classes which have any influence on or control of the Government are the wealthier classes, and the Government have been absolutely afraid to force taxation upon them.

New Taxation

I now come to the peroration of the Budget, speech new taxation. There are different views as to the method which should be adopted, as to the general principles which ought to guide us in levying taxation. In effect, however, I think every sensible man will agree with this principle, that it is our duty to levy as much taxation, now, to make us bear as much of the current expenditure of the War, as can be borne by the nation without weakening us in the conduct of it. That, I think, is the principle—though there will be different opinions as to the application of it. I, for one, am strongly of opinion—and have throughout acted upon it—that we could hardly make a greater mistake than to forget that the War has to be financed to-day, that we must not only think of the position afterwards, and that, therefore, it is absolutely essential that we should not levy taxation on such a scale as to cripple every industry and every financial institution in this country, with the result that it would be impossible to obtain by voluntary means the money it is necessary to borrow to carry on the War. It might easily be impossible to obtain it by any means which would not shake to the bottom the whole foundation of our national stability.

There is another consideration. Up bill now, in imposing taxation, I think everyone has been struck with the readiness with which all classes in the country have been prepared to pay. Nothing could be worse than to put taxation on any class on a scale which seems to them in excess of the needs of the situation. For that reason we really must be moderate in the amount which we raise by taxation. There is, however, another thing. Even from the point of view of borrowing it is necessary that the lender should have reason to believe that the security is good. For that purpose it is essential that we should show, by the amount of taxation which we raise, that the country is in a position to bear the burden of additional loans. It is on that principle, as I have said, that I have tried to act.

There is something else I should like to say. Last year I found—and I am sure my predecessor also found it—that on the whole the House of Commons recognised the need for drastic taxation, and was prepared to support the Government in their proposals to a greater extent, I think, than was ever the case in times of peace. I hope, and I expect, that the House of Commons will take the same view this year. But that lays a special obligation on the Government, and on the Chancellor of the Exchquer, to make sure—or at least as sure as it is in their power to make that the proposals are in themselves just and fair.

Not only I myself, but all those who have assisted me, including my hon. Friend at my side (Mr. Baldwin), have the conviction that the proposals I shall submit are proposals which, after examination—in connection with which we have spared no trouble—are the most equitable that it is in our power to propose to the House of Commons. I shall not take up the time of the House by describing the different forms of taxation which we have considered and rejected. I will, however, say a word about one. It has been proposed in many quarters—and, indeed, has been urged in many quarters—that we should increase the amount of the Excess Profits Duty.

I have carefully considered that. I do not think it necessary for me to give the House the reasons—they are many—which have induced me to leave that source of revenue untouched. I will state one reason which I think is adequate. My advisers have told me, after examination, that it is their deliberate opinion that, if the rate were raised still more, we could not possibly get more, and the result would very likely be less revenue. There is, however, one thing in connection with the Excess Profits Duty which I propose to do, and that is to stop a leakage which was not intended in the Act. It has been found that in some cases goods which, if sold in the ordinary course, would be liable to the Excess Profits Tax, have been sold either by selling the whole business or in winding it up, and have so escaped. I have looked into that matter carefully, and I consider that that should stop, and, if my proposals are adopted, a Resolution will be carried which will put an end to that from to-day. I dare say there are many hon. Members of the House who would have liked me to have made this proposal retrospective. I have considered that, and I have decided against it [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] That course may be more popular, but there is the strongest objection, unless there is actual need, to making taxation of this kind retrospective. I have looked into it, and taking into account the extent of it, and also the extreme difficulty of getting at the right people and doing it at the right time, I have come to the conclusion that it would not be wise to make it retrospective.

Post Office Rates

The first item, not of taxation, but which yields additional revenue, I propose to the House of Commons is an increase in the Post Office rates. The House will remember that this was recommended by a Committee in 1915. It was considered then, and the Government did not adopt it. But our need then was very different from what it is now; and there is this fact also, that the change has been made in nearly all the great countries of the world. We propose, therefore, that the rate upon letters both at home and to the United States and our Dominions should be 1½d., and that the rate on postcards should be 1d. From this source of revenue we expect to derive in the present year £3,400,000, and in a full year £4,000,000 per annum. [An HON. MEMBER: "For the same weight?"] I do not think the House wishes me to go into details. They will all be contained in a White Paper, which will be available to-morrow morning.

The next item, in comparison with the figures I have been dealing with, brings in a very small amount, but it has this advantage, that it can be collected without any trouble or expense. I propose that the stamp on a cheque in the future should be 2d. instead of 1d. The House will remember that this was proposed by Sir Michael Hicks Beach at the time of the Boer War. It was rejected then by the House of Commons, but again the need now is much greater. I have been in consultation in connection with this tax, as I have been with all other taxes, with those who I think are the best people to advise me, and I have reason to believe that this change can be made without any serious inconvenience at all. It will have the advantage possibly, though I doubt if it will be much—it will only happen if the total number of cheques are reduced—it will have an advantage from the point of view of the banks, whose starts have been so much reduced. They would be glad, no doubt, to see some diminution in the number of cheques used. We estimate that we shall get £750,000 from that, and in a full year £1,000,000 sterling.

Income Tax

I now come to an item of much greater amount, the Income Tax. Every Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I think almost everyone, is inclined to be tempted by the facility with which revenue can be raised by this tax. It is only a case of taking a decision, and immense sums come in. I do not think it is right to be too much influenced by that consideration. I think the House of Commons, and hon. Members in every quarter of it, should take into account seriously what is the effect of an Income Tax on anything like this scale, not only on the individuals who have to pay it, but on the whole trade and industry of this country. I should have been glad if it had been possible to leave it at 5s., but that is impossible, and I propose to increase the rate of Income Tax by one shilling and make it 6s. in the £l. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!" and "Not enough!"] I hope the exclamations I have just heard reflect the general view of Income Tax payers. This proposal will bring in this year £11,250,000, and in a full year it will bring in £41,400,000. The difference is accounted for by the permission to pay by instalments.

As regards the Income Tax, I do not propose to make any change in the existing rates of incomes up to £500. On the whole, looking at the question from the point of view of ability to pay, which ought to be the test, I think this is fair. I may say to the House of Commons that I have looked upon my taxation proposals as a whole, and I should not have felt justified in relieving this class altogether from this form of taxation if I had not seen my way to make additions to indirect taxation, by which they will pay their share. There will be no alteration up to £500. There will be no change in the Income Tax rate on the service pay of soldiers and sailors.

As regards the double Income Tax within the Empire, I propose to adopt the same principle which was adopted by my predecessor—that is to say, this extra 1s. will not be paid where the combined tax in other parts of the Empire and here amounts to as much as 6s., and the tax will remain 3s. 6d. in the £. I propose to make the children allowance apply to a wife also, and so far, much to my surprise, I have had no representations from any women's suffrage societies suggesting the impropriety of proceeding on that basis. I also propose, and I have already promised this, to extend a similar allowance to real dependants who are incapacitated. The only other change in this respect is that these allowances which I have just mentioned, together with the allowance to children up to sixteen years of age, will apply in case of incomes up to £800, instead of £700 as at present. The reason for that change is that without this alteration the sharpness of the gradation at this point would have been so marked as to act almost unfairly.

No; that remains as before. Indeed, that would be the last thing we should be inclined to consider when we are raising money, and our need is greater than it has ever been before.

Super-Tax

Now I come to the Super-tax. I propose to make the maximum rate 4s. 6d. in the £, instead of 3s. 6d. as at present, and beginning at incomes of £2,500, instead of £3,000 as at present. From this source it is estimated that we shall derive £9,200,000 in the current year and £14,150,000 in a full year. The particulars of the scale are all contained in the White Paper, but perhaps it may interest the House if I give one or two examples of what the effect of the Income Tax and Super-tax combined is upon a given income. Upon an income of £3,000 a combination of these two taxes will make an actual tax of 6s. 5d. in the £; on an income of £5,000 it will be 7s. 2d.; on £7,000 it will be 7s. 9d.; on £10,000 it will be 8s. 4d.; and on £20,000 it will be 9s. 5d. in the £.

Farmers' Income Tax

The next tax has given me more trouble, and has been more difficult to decide, than any other, and that is the treatment of farmers in this Budget. There is no doubt a widespread feeling that farmers are making large profits. It has been made plain to me not only in the House of Commons by such cheers as I have just listened to, but by deputations which I have received in connection with the Budget—and this would, I think, be admitted by the farmers themselves—that they are not bearing a fair share of the burden of taxation caused by the War. It is necessary, therefore, to make some change. Obviously the change which one would like to make—and it would be fair in every sense of the word—would be to put them like other people under Schedule D, and make them pay on profits. There are many advantages in taking this course, and, in a sense, the present would be a suitable time to take it, because undoubtedly they could bear the change more easily now than would be the case at other periods. It would be a great advantage—and here I am expressing not only my own views, but those of my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Agriculture, whom I have closely consulted in regard to this proposal—it would be an immense advantage to the fanners themselves, because undoubtedly correct finance and the keeping of accurate accounts is the beginning of all sound business undertakings. I should have liked to take this course, but I am not going to-take it, and I will tell the House why. My advisers tell me that it would not only be difficult, but that it would be impossible to carry out, and, after going into it most carefully myself and with the assistance of my advisers at the Treasury, I have come to the conclusion that they are right.

I will try to make the House understand why. The great bulk of the farmers—I am told more than 90 per cent.—much more than 90 per cent.—keep no accounts. That ought not to be a reason for excluding them from the tax, but I am dealing not with what is just, but with what is practicable. The farmers themselves would find it very difficult, their time being more usefully occupied in the national interest, to set to work framing their accounts. But that is not what makes it impossible; it is the difficulty of having the accounts checked by the tax-surveying staff. I want the House of Commons to try and realise—I certainly did not do so myself until I went closely into it—what an immense effect the withdrawal of so many of the men engaged in tax collecting has had upon the collection of our taxes. The numbers who have been withdrawn—and I am sure my right hon. Friend opposite will agree with me—are very great, while the total amount of taxation to be collected has increased many times, and there have been so many new taxes, especially the Excess Profits Tax, that the additional burden thrown upon what is left of the staff has become almost intolerable. I am prepared to say I do not believe there is any class of the community which has rendered better service during the War than what remains of the Inland Revenue staff in the collection of taxes. This has had another effect. It has always been the pride of the British Government in regard to taxation that evasion should not be permitted. Many suggestions for new taxes in the past, and some to-day made to myself, have been rejected because they lent themselves easily to evasion. As a matter of fact, with our depleted staff, and with the immense amount of extra work, there is no doubt whatever that a certain amount of revenue, which in other circumstances would come in, has escaped. For that reason, and rightly, the heads of the Inland Revenue Department have given instructions that the work of the staff should be concentrated on the sources from which large revenue is derived, and I think the House will agree that that is a right course.

Consider that from the point of view of this proposed tax. The farmers have never been accustomed to it, and they would, therefore, bother the life out of the tax collector as to how to make up their accounts, and, when the accounts were made up, the tax surveyor would have no means of checking them. The real effect, stated by my advisers and accepted by myself, was that, if we were to adopt this course, the result would be that, in trying to get this form of revenue, we should lose many times over in other sources the amount of revenue we should collect by these means. For that reason I have rejected this proposal, and I propose, instead of making the assumption which is made low that the farmer's profits are equivalent to his rent, that we should take twice the rent as the equivalent of the profits and assess the farmer on that. That may be regarded in some quarters as inadequate, but there is this to be borne in mind: There is an immense difference in the profits on different kinds of crops. I have gone into this fully with the Board of Agriculture and with my right hon. Friend. I think it would have been possible to make a fairer adjustment by assessing a certain number of the higher-rented farms under Schedule D, for the reason that profits depend not so much on the size of the farm as on the kind of farming. I am told in able farms which produce corn make profits very small indeed in comparison with those of much smaller farms which produce potatoes. It is true that this arrangement which I am making is unequal as between one farmer and another. That is obvious, but I do not see how it is to be avoided. On the other hand, it is not unfair to the farmers who have to pay on the double rent, for this reason, that everyone will have the option, if they prefer, of giving accounts under Schedule D, so as to be certain that they shall not in any circumstances pay more than any other section of the community.

I ask the House of Commons to keep in view what has been in my mind, that food production is much more important to the nation than any additional revenue we may get in this way, and it is essential that any proposals of this kind which I make to-day should not work unfairly on those on whom we rely for the production of food. They do not. My right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Agriculture agrees with me that the number of farmers who will not be in a position to pay on this scale will be small, and we all know, especially in the case of those who are unaccustomed to accounts—although I am told that farmers look at both sides of a penny as carefully as any other person—that sometimes they pay what they are asked to pay, without knowing exactly on what basis they are paying. I have, therefore, made arrangements with my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Agriculture—and this will apply to the Agricultural Departments for Ireland and Scotland—I hope they will take the same course—that they shall, through their district committees and other local agents, give farmers every facility when they are satisfied that they are being asked to pay too much—to give them what help they can in making up their accounts. I am sure the House of Commons will feel unanimously that in making this change I am not acting unfairly towards the farmers. From this source the amount of increased revenue this year will be £2,500,000, and in a full year £5,300,000.

Spirit And Beer Duties

Now I come to another source of revenue, with regard to which also there has been great difficulty in coming to a decision. The House will not be surprised to learn that I propose to get additional revenue out of the spirit and beer trade. The trade, as everyone knows, is in a position which is entirely artificial. On the one hand, the commodity is so scarce and the desire for it is so great—I know in some quarters they do not desire it—but the desire is so great that sellers, if left to themselves, could obtain practically any price. It is, therefore, a monopoly. On the other hand, the condition is artificial, because prices are regulated by the Food Controller. As regards spirits, the present duty is 14s. 9d. per proof gallon. I propose to make that duty in the future 30s., or an addition of 15s. 3d. per proof gallon. That will bring in during the present year £10,500,000, and in a full year £11,150,000. I have, in coming to this decision, not only examined the figures most carefully, but I have consulted many of those connected with the industry, whose advice is worth having, and I have no doubt whatever that the trade, at the prices fixed by the Food Controller, which will be announced tomorrow, can pay this additional duty and still make reasonable profits.

Now I come to beer. If spirits interest a large section of the House, beer, I think, will interest a still larger section. What I propose to do in the case of beer is to double the present duty, which is 25s. per standard barrel, and to make it 50s. This will bring in £9,700,000 this year and £15,700,000 in a full year, on the present output. The prices of beer have been fixed by the Food Controller, in consultation with my self, at figures, which justify us in believing that the duty can be paid, while still leaving fair profits for those engaged in the trade. I have no doubt, from observations which have been made at different times in the House of Commons, that many Members of the House have in their minds the big profits that have been made in this trade during the past year.

I am afraid I must take anything my right hon. Friend says with a certain amount of discount.

5.0 P.M.

At all events, if I had foreseen what has happened, there would have been a change in the duties a year ago. I do wish the House of Commons now to look at this question as I am looking at it, simply from the point of view of revenue, and, in any discussions which take place, to leave absolutely out of their minds whether they are for or against particular trades. This was the position on which I had to decide. I had to decide whether this duty could be borne, 'while still leaving fair profits to those engaged in the industry. There was a difficulty about that. There is a great variety in the nature of the businesses of different brewers; there is a great difference between those who were free brewers, who have not tied houses, and those who have; there is great difference in the methods in which they carry on their trades; and I was satisfied at the outset that it was quite impossible to hit on any figure which would be exactly equal as between all the people engaged in the trade. I had, therefore, to take a figure which seemed to me fair to the trade as a whole, and which would not inflict undue hardship on any members of that trade who were conducting it properly.

I believe that this figure which I have chosen fulfils that condition, but I would like to point out one advantage which the Excess Profits Duty gives in regard to these trades. Take either spirits or beer, and the firms which have paid excess profits. Under the conditions of that duty, if in a particular year a firm which has paid the duty does not make the prewar standard, it is entitled to recover from the Treasury 80 per cent. of the deficiency. I would have imposed this with more hesitation, but for that fact. Let the House consider what that means, and consider to what extent it is a protection to those engaged in the trade. Supposing a firm had made before the War £15,000; if under this duty it is only able to make £10,000, it would get back out of the Excess Profits Tax paid rather more than £4,000, or 80 per cent.—that is to say, in respect of £15,000, that firm would, be certain of receiving £14,000, and I think it is £150 more. Now I would ask the House to bear that in mind and consider that, after all, an arrangement, which gives this trade a certainty of making almost its pre-war profits, is not an unfair arrangement to make in the stress of taxation in which we are placed

There is another point with regard to the excess profits. I said there was great variety in the way in which these businesses are carried on, and consequently in their profits. But the Excess Profits Duty protects the Treasury as well as the trade. If the duty, which I am now proposing, does not get as large a revenue from these firms as might in ordinary course be expected, then we will take 80 per cent. of the excess profits which they make over and above their pre-war profits. On the whole, therefore, I hope the House will consider that these two taxes in all the circumstances are not unfair, and not inequitable to those whom they affect.

Tobacco

The next item is tobacco. I propose to raise the duty on tobacco from 6s. 5d., at which it now stands., to 8s. 2d., or a rise of 1s. 9d. per pound. The House will remember that I proposed an increase of duty on tobacco last year, part of which, in the course of discussion, was taken off. I do not like to put these heavy taxes on tobacco or anything else, but what we have to consider is that the money must be got, and what are the sources from which it can most fairly be obtained. Judging tobacco from the standpoint which has always applied in the past, as to whether or not it can stand additional taxation, that is, how the consumption is going on, we certainly can stand this additional taxation, for the amount consumed in the United Kingdom in the year before the War has been greatly exceeded. It is now three or four million pounds more, in spite of the high duty. Tobacco prices, as the House knows, are in the hands of a Tobacco Controller, and I think the result has been advantageous to the consumer, and not unfair to those who are engaged in the trade. Representations were made to the Tobacco Controller that, owing to the increased cost of production, it was necessary in any case to raise the price of tobacco by a Id. per ounce. The duty, which has been decided upon, has been fixed after consultation with the Controller, and the whole result will be that the price will be raised by 2d. per ounce, but the House will see that the whole of that is not borne by the consumer, because there would have been Id. advance in any case, and the duty is raised by about l ⅓ d. per ounce. This means that something like one-third of a penny is borne by those who are dealing in it, under the prices arranged. The increase proposed is large, but I am told by the Control Board that there will be no difficulty whatever in getting the higher price, provided we do not irritate the consumer, as we have done in the case of beer, by not only charging him a higher price, but not enabling him to get the article when he is willing to pay for it. He said that whether the taxation could be got without discontent depended on whether or not these supplies can be kept up.

The House will readily understand that at a. time like this, when we have to restrict imports in every direction, tobacco, not being, as some think, a necessity of life, is one of those where restriction would naturally come. But I thought it right, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, to point out to the Cabinet Committee which was considering the matter, that in importing tobacco we are almost importing money, and that that was something which ought to be taken into account, especially as the total tonnage required was not largo. The House will realise to what extent that is true when I say that, under the new scale of duties proposed, an import of 6,000 tons of tobacco will give to the Treasury a revenue of £5,500,000 sterling. That is rather a double-barrelled observation. It shows on the one hand—and that was my reason for making it—the advantage from the point of view of the State of bringing in tobacco, and, on the other, shows how largo is the proportion of the price of tobacco which the consumer gives to the state. On the whole, therefore, looking, as I have done, in every direction for taxation, I think this is as fair a source as any which is open to us. The increased yield of this tax will be in the present year £7,500,000. and in a full year £8,000,000.

Matches

The next tax to which I will call the attention of the Committee is a very small one. It is an addition to the duty on matches. That addition would not be made for the sake of revenue; the reason for it is a simple one, which I am sure will commend itself to the Committee. Matches, like nearly everything else, are under a Controller. The price is fixed—for those who can get them. It was fixed in regard to the box which is in most common use at ¾ d. The producers have satisfied the Controller that it was necessary for them to get a higher price. You can only make an addition of |d., and to make this addition without raising the duty would have given an excessive profit to the manufacturer. Therefore, by arrangement with the manufacturers, I am proposing an additional duty of 50 per cent., which will enable the matches to be sold at the same price that they would have been sold in any case, and the gain to the Revenue is £600,000 per annum.

Sugar

I come now to the last of the sources of Revenue which are included in the £114,000,000 I mentioned to the House. I propose an additional tax on sugar of 11s. 8d. per cwt. That will bring in during the current year £12,400,000, and in a full year £13,200,000. I wish, if I can, to justify this on the same grounds as the other taxes can be justified. The price of sugar is fixed. At present it averages 5 ¾ d. per lb., and with this addition the cost will be 7d. per lb. I ask the Committee to consider the extent of that burden upon the individual. The ration of sugar is ½ lb. per week; the duty is l ¼ d. per lb. Therefore, the burden upon each consumer is l ¼ d. per fortnight. I may point out also that, considering the price of other commodities, sugar will still be sold at a not unreasonable price.

I would put this finally to the Committee. It really was absolutely necessary to have additions to indirect taxation. If anyone in the House feels inclined to consider that any particular tax is too hard on some persons, they should try to find out from what other sources the Revenue can be obtained. I should like to add this. In considering the amount of this indirect taxation, it ought not to be left out of account—it is very important that it should be remembered—that a subsidy is now paid on the loaf. It is really relieving those, who would naturally pay this indirect taxation, and this subsidy amounts to more than the total of the additional indirect taxation which I am now placing before the Committee. I am not going to argue the question, on which I know there is a difference of opinion, as to whether or not it was wise to make that subsidy, but, from the point of view of the effect upon the poorer classes of the country, I have no hesitation whatever in saying that the indirect taxation which I propose is more than counterbalanced by the subsidy which was given on the cost of the loaf. That makes the total amount of new taxation which I mentioned.

Luxury Tax

There is, however, one other tax to which I invite the approval of the House. It is impossible, as the House will see in a minute, to give any accurate estimate of it, arid, though I rely upon receiving considerable Revenue from it, I wish ii to be regarded as something extra, over and above the calculations which I have made. It is what is called a Luxury Tax. Last year I desired to introduce such a tax. I had it examined as closely as I could, and I came to the conclusion—I was advised—that the difficulties were so great that it was not worth proceeding with. I am not sure whether that was a wise decision, but at all events there has been an additional year of war, there have been an additional year of expenditure, and there is greater need than there has ever been before. There is also, the fact that the tax has actually been imposed in France. In January I saw M. Klotz, the French Financial Minister, and discussed the tax with him at length. I gained from him all the particulars which he had available, and carefully studied them. The tax in France was not put on at once. The Chamber sanctioned it and left the details to be arranged by a Commission. It was subsequently put on, and it came into operation at the beginning of this month. just before it came into operation I sent a representative of the Treasury to France to study on the spot the methods by which they proposed to collect the tax. I have come to the conclusion that the right way is to adopt, as the guiding principle, the course which has been taken in France. Their tax is composed of three varieties. There is, first of all, a tax on articles which are essentially articles of luxury, apart altogether from price, such, for instance, as jewellery. There is, in addition, a tax on all articles, or on a great variety of articles which, in the opinion of the French Government and the French Chamber, become articles of luxury above a certain price, and should, therefore, be subject to the tax. There is, in addition, a tax on luxury establishments, hotels, and restaurants, which is also included in the Luxury Tax. It would have been very easy to have made a list of the first class, and to have denned a certain number of articles, and to have said, "We will have a duty on them," but the amount of revenue which in any case could have been got from them would have been small, and it would not have had the effect which such a tax is desired to secure. I have put it on mainly for revenue, but I do not think that there is anyone in the House or out of it who will doubt that at a time like this if it can be arranged, it is a good thing in the national interest to make it more difficult, apart from revenue, for people to spend money on articles of pure luxury. I think that view will be taken. If the tax were only on particular articles, the result would be to a large extent that those articles would be avoided, and the extravagant expenditure would continue on other articles which were not subject to the tax.

I propose, therefore, to adopt, as I have said, the general principle adopted by the French Government. In arranging schedules, they appointed a Commission, consisting of Government officials and representatives of traders. I am going, if the House sanctions it, to adopt a different principle. I am going to ask the House of Commons to set up a Select Committee to prepare these schedules. Of course, they will have either to co-opt traders, or, in their discretion; take advice from them as they think best. I have been encouraged to take this course, because of the advantage which the Government have already received—and I hope it will be greater—from the Select Committee set up on expenditure; last year. It may be said that, as a matter of fact, I am leaving the most difficult part of the Budget to be dealt with by the House of Commons. That is true, but I do it partly for this reason, that this kind of tax is novel and it may be found very objectionable by those through whom it will be collected, and I desire, if possible, to get the additional sanction which will be given to the proposal by a Committee of the House of Commons.

With regard to the amount of the tax, the French rate of the tax is 10 per cent., but they have in addition a tax on retail turnover irrespective of whether the article is a luxury or not. I do not ask the House of Commons to adopt that tax. I propose, therefore, a purely Luxury Tax on rather a higher scale of duty than was taken by the French Government. The rate which I propose—and the House, especially those who are in favour of the decimal systems, will be shocked by the method by which I propose that it should be calculated—is two pence in the shilling, or one-sixth of the amount. I am told that will be a much more workable arrangement than to take a percentage, 10 or 15 per cent. The method by which this tax has to be collected must, I think, be by stamp duty. In that way the stamp is put on the bill, and the customer himself will to a certain extent check the transaction, though, of course, there must be inspection by Government officials as well. I believe, if, as I hope, the -Select Committee of the House of Commons will try to ass-1st in this matter, that it will do extremely useful work, and will elaborate a form of taxation which will give a large revenue. The amount which the French Government have calculated to get from their Luxury Tax is-£24,000,000. Our rate is, as I have said, higher What the amount will be must depend, of course, on the nature of the schedules which are prepared, but I shall be disappointed if, as a result of this tax, a very considerable addition is not secured to the Revenue of the country.

I have now come to the end of my statement. I am sorry to have occupied so much time of the Committee, but I hardly see what I could have left out. I recognise as fully as any Member of the House how very heavy is the burden which I am asking the country to bear. I can only say to the House of Commons that, in considering the proposals of the Budget, I hope they will try to look upon it as a whole and to realise that I have attempted at least to balance fairly the taxation between the different classes who are called upon to bear it. I am convinced that the House of Commons will begin the examination of these proposals with a full realisation of the necessity of the additional taxation, and with the desire to support the Government in the methods which they have taken to secure it. I am perfectly certain that the country as a whole will boar this heavy additional burden in the same spirit in which they have submitted to sacrifices far more heavy than anything measurer! by mere money value.

Continuation Of Duties (Customs)

Motion made, and Question proposed,

(1) That the following Duties of Customs imposed by Part I. of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, and continued by Section one of (he Finance Act, 1917, until the first day of August, nineteen hundred and eighteen, shall continue to be charged as from that date until the first day of August, nineteen hundred and nineteen (that is to say):

Duty. Section of Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915
Increased Duty on Tea1
Additional Duties on Dried Fruit.8
Additional Duty on Motor Spirit10(1)
New Import Duties12

And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act,. 1913.—[ Mr. Sonar Law.]

Could the right hon. Gentleman say what Resolutions he proposes to take this evening?

I hope, as usual, to get all the Resolutions except that relating to Amendment of Law, on which a general discussion can take place to-morrow.

I am sure that I shall meet with the approval of the Committee when I say that that part of the task of the right hon. Gentleman which consisted in making a clear Budget statement he has most completely fulfilled.

It was, if I may say so, not only extremely lucid but very interesting. If I turn for a few moments to the last part of his speech first, perhaps I shall be addressing myself to the subject which is most interesting to the Committee. My right hon. Friend proposes to raise from new sources of revenue £114,000,000. For my part, I am disposed to think that he will get £110,000,000 out of his £114,000,000 with the greatest ease, but that his two smallest taxes—those which produce the least Revenue—will probably give him the greatest trouble. I do not refer to the Match Tax, which is not a new tax at all, but a mere readjustment; but apart from that, his smallest tax is the Cheque Tax, which produces £1,000,000, and his next smallest is the additional Postal Rate, which brings in £4,000,000. Those; two taxes together, bringing in a total of £5,000,000, will, I fear, give him more trouble than the whole of the rest of his £110,000,000. My right hon. Friend starts with the principle, which the Committee has accepted again and again, that we should not borrow money unless we have first made provision by taxation for Interest and Sinking Fund on the amount borrowed. He has fulfilled the condition; he is raising sufficient money to meet the whole of his after-war expenditure, including Interest and Sinking Fund on the Debt. I think he will agree with me when I say that to fulfil that principle is the minimum duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Committee could not concede for a moment that we should not raise enough money to provide Interest and Sinking Fund on our Debt. We have always been willing, and the figures which my right hon. Friend submitted to-day show that he has always been willing, to go beyond this and to raise in taxation a sufficient Revenue to give us a margin for a decrease in taxation when peace comes. I am sure this House and the, country will be willing to meet any burden of taxation which may be imposed upon it during the War, provided there is a reasonable hope that after the War the burden may be reduced.

My right hon. Friend says quite truly that taxation must not cripple industry. But in the War, while nearly every major industry in the country is controlled, how can taxation injure industry? It is quite true that if you take beyond a certain amount in the way of Income Tax from the annual profits of a business, you prevent those profits being put to reserves and new capital being built up. With that limitation the taxation which is taken by way of Income Tax is taxation which is withdrawn from means of expenditure by the people, and is not injurious to business in time of war, but is most helpful to the country itself by preventing wasteful expenditure. For that reason, while I gladly recognise that my right hon. Friend has made a really-great effort in the fourth year of War in proposing to raise additional taxation to the amount of £114,000,000, for my part, as a mere war measure, I should have been quite willing to see a further addition made to the Income Tax and the Super-tax. I would not however, put that forward as a permanent measure, for I am entirely in agreement with him in thinking that when peace comes we may do far more harm than good by crippling the development of our industry by putting our Income Tax and Super-tax at too high a level.

My right hon. Friend, in opening, referred to the advances which we make to the Allies, and the advances which the United States make to us and to the other Allies also. He told us that we advanced last year to the Allies just over £500,000,000, while the United States advanced to us almost exactly the same sum. I think I have mentioned before in this House—I have certainly endeavoured to get the principle accepted else where £that it would be a most advantageous thing if a new arrangement could be made in regard to the advances between ourselves and the United States. The United States, as I understand, now advance to us and to the Allies the whole value of the goods which the Allies purchase in the United States, and, in addition to that, the United States advance to us in particular all the money which is necessary in order to maintain the sterling exchange in America. I would suggest for the consideration of my right hon. Friend whether the true system of advance between us and the Allies and the United States ought not to be of this nature: That we advance to our Allies all sums necessary to pay for goods purchased by the Allies in our country; that the United States advance to all the Allies, including ourselves, all sums necessary to pay for the goods purchased by us and the other Allies in the United States; but that for all other goods purchased, whether by us or by the other Allies, in other foreign countries, the United States should make the advances to us and the other Allies direct. The United States Government-make the advances to the same amount now, because they not only advance all the money necessary to pay for goods purchased in the United States, but they also advance, through Great Britain, all the money necessary to pay for goods purchased by the Allies other than Great Britain in foreign countries other than the United States. The effect of that is as follows: That while the money required by the Allies to pay for goods purchased in countries other than Great Britain and the United States originally comes from the United States, it is not lent direct to the Allies. It is lent first to us, and being lent first to us, we then pass it on to the Allies. As this country undertook at the beginning of the War the whole burden of financing the Allies and have continued to bear that burden from the start, so we might quite reasonably ask the United States to take over that burden from us to-day. We will go on financing ourselves from first to last, but we may reasonably ask that.

My right hon. Friend understands that that was the kind of arrangement which we contemplated.

I am only too delighted to hear it from my right hon. Friend, because it is the kind of arrangement which, I have reason to believe, the United States were not unwilling to accept. They have shown themselves most generous in their desires and in their actions in financing us, and I am sure that an arrangement of that kind will be certain to meet with their acceptance. One word further as to the last tax mentioned by the right hon. Gentle man the Luxury Tax. The French system, as I understand it, is that the tax is paid by the purchaser and is collected by the seller of the luxury. It is collected by the seller, not by means o affixing a stamp to the article sold, by the seller keeps special books in which he enters all sales of taxable articles, understand that my right hon. Friend is not proposing to adopt the French system and that he is going to charge the tax immediately upon the sale of the article over the counter by affixing a stamp, wish my right hon. Friend all success in levying this tax. To secure the affixing o a stamp on every sale over the counter dealing with such articles as, for instance a pair of gloves or a pocket-handkerchief, and rising to old masters which may be sold by the picture dealers—to secure the affixing of a stamp in every case will be a very difficult task. If my right hon. Friend can succeed, I am quite sure we shall all welcome the millions of money raised out of what we all agree in calling wasteful expenditure. But I am not sure, if he is going to make—

It all depends on the price. I have here the schedule of the French articles. I see, for instance, that a smoking jacket, a frock coat or a morning coat is not a luxury if it costs £5, but if it costs over £5 it becomes a luxury and is taxed 10 per cent. Let me take another case. In regard to cutler and scissors, each article is not a luxury if it costs 10 francs, but if it costs more than 10 francs it becomes a luxury. A small piece of china-ware is not a luxury if it costs two francs, but it becomes s luxury if it costs more than two francs. I believe there is no precise definition of what is a small piece of china-ware. I have paid some small attention to the French tax, and I am bound to say it left me convinced that, if it were my duty to impose the tax and to collect it, I should break down hopelessly, but I have such confidence in my right hon. Friend's greater abilities that I am quite sure he will succeed in devising a scheme—

My right hon. Friend has already retired from the task, and is going to invite some of us to devise a scheme by which you will be able to raise this tax and obtain a revenue. For my part, I am sure we are all agreed that we should like to see the Revenue raised. Whether it is practicable or not is an entirely different matter.

The total revenue that my right hon. Friend proposes to raise in the present year is £842,000,000, and the taxes would, in a full year, bring in no less than £900,000,000. It is a gigantic revenue and the Estimates upon which it is founded will, I am sure, prove not to be an overstatement. My right hon. Friend referred, with admiration, to the work done by the Inland Revenue. There is no Department in the State which has carried out its duties with greater ability and public spirit than the tax gatherers, with an almost infinitesimal total increase of their staff, and while their old experienced staff has been greatly reduced they have been able to collect these huge sums, and on the whole have gathered them in with a minimum of inconvenience to the tax-paying public. Therefore, I am quite satisfied that; the Estimate which they bring before the Chancellor of the Exchequer will not be an overstatement, but I cannot help thinking that we must be cautious in assuming that our post-war revenue is going to be anything like upon the scale of figures which we are now contemplating. In framing an Estimate of the Inland Revenue receipts we consider, of course, the profits winch have been made during the last three years. We can always be quite sure, therefore, that when we have had one or two good years of trade the Income Tax receipts are bound to remain high because the profits from the good years will come into assessment for three years running. We have had in the past three very great years of profits and we may be quite sure, consequently, that our Income Tax revenue in 1918 and 1919 will be very high. In 1918 we get, for our three years' assessment, three good years, and even if the current year is not a good year we shall still in 1919 bring in the three years 1916, 1917 and 1918, and as 1916 and 1917 were bumper years the Income Tax for 1919 cannot fail to bring in a very large amount. Consequently, my right hon. Friend is absolutely safe in all his Estimates for this year and for next year, but just as, when the tide is rising, you get all the advantage in your Income Tax returns from your improving trade because a good year takes the place of a bad year three years before, so, when the tide begins to ebb, you do not feel it at first, but when you have lost the last of your good years you will have to meet a very great drop. Therefore I feel a little anxious about the future and about the estimates which we should form on calculations based upon the abnormal profits of 1016 and 1917. I do not know whether my right hon. Friend would be willing to say at. this moment that he anticipates that profits will be as high in the current year as they were last year. Undoubtedly in many trades they cannot be as high. Prices have been limited and sales have been restricted, and consequently it is inevitable that in many trades profits will be considerably reduced. In other trades, however, profits arc higher than ever, and it is difficult so early in the year to say whether on the whole 1918 will be worse, as good or better than 1917. There is cetrainly no similar upward tendency any longer as there has been in the last couple of years, consequently we must be cautious in the predictions we make as to our future Revenue.

My right hon. Friend did not say anything £it is quite right he should not—about the changes which he would make in the measures which he is adopting to meet our expenditure otherwise than from Revenue. Loans, of course, do not come in under the Budget, but I think it will be relevant to ask a question regarding loans. As he has raised the Income Tax from 5s. to 6s. it is obvious that there is' now a differential rate arising between the 5 per Cent. tax-paying Loan and the 4 per Cent. tax-free Loan. He is issuing War Bonds at par paying 5 per cent., or War Bonds at par tax-free paying 4 per cent. That was quite a proper adjustment between the two when the tax was 5s. in the £but I should like to ask whether he proposes any alteration in his issue of War Bonds now that he has raised the Income Tax to 6s. in the £

I am afraid, in spite of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, that I ought to have mentioned it because I am taking action upon it at once. The principle on which the tax-free Loan was based was that those who chose ' to take that form of loan must pay a little for what they regarded as additional security. That is to say, their yield was rather less than the yield of the 5 per Cent. Loan on the ordinary basis. The reason of that, of course, was that it was obviously against the interests of the Government that a very large sum should be tax-free in future. What I propose to do, therefore—and I am giving instructions to-day—is to withdraw the tax-free Loan after to-day, but not to deprive those who are willing to invest in that form of an opportunity of doing so. I am continuing to issue the 4 per Cent. Bonds, but at 101 ½. The effect of that is that the tax-free buyers will still get a slightly lower yield on the basis of the 6s. Income Tax than those who are buying Loan and paying Income Tax. Of course, it is a gamble. It is over ten years, and if the rate is lower in any part of the period the State will gain, but on the whole I do not think it would have been right at the moment to give a preference to those who buy tax-free Loan, because obviously that class must be composed largely of those who are rich.

I congratulate the holders of 4 per Cent. Loan. Those who like to gamble on the War lasting at least another year will be safe in buying 4 per Cent. Bonds at l ½ premium, because if the War should last another year I assume Income Tax would be raised again. In my view, in raising an additional £110,000,000, my right hon. Friend has fairly and fully met the principle with which he started, namely, that he would raise enough Revenue during the year to meet the whole charge for interest and Sinking Fund on the additional debt which ho is about to raise.

6.0. P.M.

I join with my right hon. Friend in congratulating the Chancellor of the Exchequer on his very lucid statement, but I cannot congratulate him on the boldness of his Budget, because, after all, in these matters we have not only a duty to ourselves, but we have a duty to the soldier as well, and I can conceive of nothing more disastrous, nothing that is so likely to discourage those who are risking so much for us, than the knowledge that whilst they are fighting, on an all too meagre pittance, we are piling up a debt of which, when they return, they will have to bear a very large burden. Therefore, I most certainly feel that the right hon. Gentleman might have been much bolder in his proposals. I want first to deal with his minor taxes. So fax as letters and postcards are concerned, I question very much whether it will be worth it. I was a member of the Committee that considered and recommended these proposals, but there are many points to consider. First, take the special hardship, or, in other words, the tax, that you will put upon the correspondence to the soldier at the front. I do not know what the figures would show but every week there are very many millions of letters and postcards sent from home to our soldiers at the front. While it is true that you do not tax the man writing home, I ask you to remember with what interest and pleasure he looks forward to letters from home, and, therefore, if you are going, as you will in this way, to tax those who correspond with soldiers at the front, if it does tend, as I believe it will, very seriously to diminish their correspondence, that is at least undesirable. But apply it to some Government Departments. Let me take the National Insurance Act. The first result, unless some alteration be contemplated, must be that all the approved societies will make a demand straight away for a higher administration allowance, because they could not possibly pay the excess tax on the basis of the money at present allowed. The right hon. Gentleman anticipates it by saying it is got over in that way. If that is got over, I can conceive of many other anomalies which must of necessity arise, but I do not think if is likely to be a profitable, certainly not a desirable, tax, for the reasons I have mentioned. I deeply regret that the right hon. Gentleman has not seen his way to alter the present abatement, which he lowered last year from £160 to £130. I submit that whilst the working classes of this country have already shown their willingness to bear that burden, you should examine this question in the light of experience prewar and to-day. It is recognised that the spending power of the sovereign is to-day equivalent to 10s. My hon. Friend (Mr. J. M. Henderson) disputes that. At all events, the Board of Trade figures show it. The Board of Trade figures may be wrong, but at all events they are the only accepted figures in the field to-day. Apart from the Board of Trade figures, experience in the spending of a working man's money shows clearly that you can only get 10s. worth of goods to-day for a sovereign as compared with the pre-war conditions. That, when you are dealing with Income Tax, means that you are today, in addition to the indirect taxation, levying an Income Tax on what is equivalent to £65. The £130 earnings of the ordinary working man is only equivalent to £65 to-day, and I submit that we are at least entitled to say that the prewar standard ought to be the basis upon which Income Tax is levied at this moment. I am delighted to know that the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes to make some allowance in regard to wives, and I believe he said invalid dependants. That is a very necessary and wise provision, but I would like to ask whether that includes provision in respect of a housekeeper? Otherwise you are going to have this anomaly, that a man is to have an allowance in respect of his wife, but if he is left a widower he is to be placed at a great disadvantage. He will have to employ and pay a housekeeper, and experience shows the difficulty and expense of that. Therefore, I would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in further considering the question, he will have some regard to the special hardship of widowers, and make the same allowance which he is making in respect of a wife to apply to a housekeeper?

I hardly know how he is going to meet the situation with regard to the Tobacco Tax. I understand that Is. 9d. per lb. is the amount levied, which is to be apportioned on the basis of 3d. per ounce. Whilst I know full well who is going to pay the 2d., I would like to know where the difference is going. I do not know whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer is aware that it has been practically impossible to get tobacco for at least a week. The right hon. Gentleman shakos his head.

Probably they knew you and therefore they did not interfere. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to recognise that it has been a real difficulty during the past week in different parts of London and the provinces to get tobacco, and people have complained. I think that dealers are simply holding up their stock, and probably at this moment if you went outside this House you would find that the tax had already been put on. [AN HON. MEMBER: "There is a con trolled price!"] Yes, but the controlled price will make no difference, because the controlled price includes the tax.

It has always been the case that we stop withdrawals for a short time before the Budget statement.

In that case it means that someone is to get the balance of the stocks in hand. There is that difficulty, and I know it is difficult to regulate it. The tax of 1s. 9d. in the lb. not being equal, it means that either the manufacturers or the shopkeepers, or someone, are getting the difference between the 1s. 9d. and the 2d. per ounce which the consumer has to pay. I also want to enter my objection to the increase in the Sugar Tax. It is not sufficient for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say that this only means 2s. 4d. per head under the present rationing scheme. The fact remains that where there is a large family it is far heavier than that. When you combine the whole of these indirect taxes with the others I have mentioned, it shows the justification that I have originally urged for the present Income Tax level being made higher than it is at the present moment. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer might have tackled the Death Duties. He might have seriously considered whether, having regard to the circumstances of this War, it would not be a fruitful source of Revenue to increase the Death Duties. Whilst one appreciates the lucid statement he has made, and that we are faced with the unfortunate fact that money must be obtained, I do think he might have obtained it in the direction I have indicated with far more justice to all concerned, and he would not have interfered either with industry or business, which appear to me to be the primary considerations.

I want to add my warmest congratulations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the exceedingly lucid and interesting financial statement with which he has favoured us to-day. I congratulate him on the fact that he realised last year national Revenue amounting to 707,000,000; but we must remember that there are still practically £2,000,000,000 of the expenditure up to 31st March last that must be raised by loans. I understand from the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the total Debt, including advances to Allies and Dominions, at the end of the current year will be no less than £8,000,000,000 in round figures. I do not think it is wise to exclude loans to Allies and Dominions because we have had to finance them, and we shall have to do so in the future. Therefore, the soundest position to take up is to total all together and see how we stand in regard to the National Debt and national obligations. At the end of the current financial year I understand that the total Debt will reach the gigantic and unheard-of figure in the history of the world of £8,000,000,000. With regard to the Estimates, when we remember that the Estimates for last year were exceeded in expenditure by £406,000,000, I think we should not be wise in depending too much upon the Estimates for the current year. At any rate, they are of such enormous proportions that the Chancellor of the Exchequer considers it necessary to call upon the taxpayers of this country to provide in Revenue for the current year no less a sure than £841,000,000 to be brought up when the new taxation applies to the whole year to a total of £900,000,000.

I believe that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has taken a wise course in making this enormous increase in taxation, because in the current year he tells us that after raising by taxation £841,000,000 we shall still have £2,130,000,000 to borrow. Therefore, if we are sound financiers, to cover the obligations of the current year he could not have done less than impose what in a whole year would amount to £114,000,000 of additional taxation. In asking the country to pay this enormous sum and I believe the taxpayers are prepared to find whatever amount is really necessary to prosecute this War to a successful issue—I think we have a right to ask that the Treasury shall resume over each of the spending Departments of the State proper supervision and control, which it is its duty to exercise in order that the taxpayers of the country may get something approaching value for their money, and so that the huge waste of public money which is taking place in connection with many of the great spending Departments of the State will be arrested. No one in this House has a deeper appreciation of the splendid services which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has rendered to the country during this War in the work he has done. We need no more efficient Chancellor of the Exchequer; but I submit that no superman in the world can efficiently supervise the expenditure of £2,800,000,000 a year, which means thirteen or fourteen times the pre-war expenditure, and at the same time be Leader of the House of Commons and a member of the War Cabinet. My honest opinion is that if the right hon. Member for West Birmingham could have been brought back to the Treasury, in order to set my right hon. Friend free in other d reactions, so that we might have some chance of proper supervision over expenditure, and some chance of saving public money—

The constitution of the War Cabinet is not relevant to this Debate.

I apologise for that passing reference. I intended to dwell on the question of the supervision of the expenditure of the taxpayers' money by the Treasury, which has been allowed to fall into abeyance. We are to have a discussion on Thursday, I believe, on the question of the Auditor-General's Report in regard to the> gross waste of money in the Ministry of Munitions, in regard to which I understand that practically no Treasury supervision whatever has take a place. We ought to know who were responsible for such widespread negligence and almost criminal waste of the resources of the country to the tune of untold millions, and what steps have been taken to discharge them from the public service and to prevent this enormous waste of money continuing. The Report of the Auditor-General is the most amazing Auditor-General's Report which has ever been submitted to the country. It is true that the expenditure to-day is fourteen times what it was in pre-war days, but whereas in 1914 the administrative staff of the right hon. Gentleman was perfectly free to supervise expenditure, it is now really—

This is not relevant to Ways and Means. It is going beyond the purely general references which are permissible. The hon. Baronet has not taken to heart my previous intimation to this effect.

It is just as well to make the matter clear. The subject is one on which the greatest pos- sible interest is taken, but details are not relevant to Ways and Means. If I allowed the hon. Member to deal with this topic I could not prevent others from doing so.