House Of Commons
Wednesday, 1st May, 1918.
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till To-morrow.
Liquor Trade
Copy presented of Reports, etc., of English, Scotch, and Irish Committees on State Purchase and Control of Liquor Trade [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Representation Of The People Act (Proportional Representation)
Copy presented of Scheme prepared by the Royal Commissioners appointed in pursuance of Section 20 (2) of the Representation of the People Act, 1918, under which approximately one hundred Members of the House of Commons shall be elected on the principle of Proportional Representation [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Shops Act, 1912
Copy presented of Order made by the Council of the undermentioned local authority, and confirmed by the Secretary for Scotland:
Burgh of Motherwell
[by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Pharmacy (Ireland) Act, 1875
Copy presented of Amended Regulations as to acceptance of other Examinations in lieu of the Pharmaceutical Preliminary Examination [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Ministry Of National Service (Reserve Forces Act, 1882)
Copy presented of Regulation made by the Minister of National Service in regard to the Medical Examination of Reservists, dated 23rd April, 1918 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Temporary Laws
Paper laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House: Register of Temporary Laws for the Eighth Session, Thirtieth Parliament, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland [pursuant to the Report of the Select Committee on Expiring Laws in Session 1866]; to be printed. [No. 53.]
Oral Answers To Questions
War
Delhi War Conference
1.
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he can give the House any information regarding the War Conference held at Delhi, and the offers made by Indian princes and ruling chiefs of aid to the British Government?
The Delhi Conference has been held in response to the Prime Minister's Message inviting the Government and the people of India to redouble their efforts in the common cause. The Viceroy's object in convening it was to invite the co-operation of all classes in sinking domestic discussions, in securing their active support of measures for developing the man-power and resources of the country, and in cheerfully bearing the burdens necessary to that end.
As regards the last part of the question, particulars have not yet reached the Secretary of State.Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether the response made by the princes and ruling chiefs in India has been as much as was expected by the Secretary of State?
The Secretary of State has not yet received this information.
Indian Army (Officers' Pay)
2.
asked the Secretary of State for India whether all officers of battalions of the British Army serving in India receive Indian rates of pay; whether he can state what is the difference between the pay received by a lieutenant in an Infantry regiment serving in India and serving in France; whether he can say whether such officers of the British service serving in India and drawing pay from the Indian Army funds are eligible for the receipt of the children's allowance granted under a recent Royal Warrant; and, if not, whether it is proposed to extend the benefits of the Royal Warrant to the dependants of officers of the British Army serving in India?
The reply to the first question is in the affirmative, and to the second that the pay and allowances of a lieutenant of British Infantry amount approximately to £24 15s. per month, and in India to Rs. 300, plus Rs. 30 special allowance (if a New Army or Territorial officer), equivalent to £24 0s. 9d. at the rate of exchange hitherto current, and to £24 15s. at the new exchange rate of 1s. 6d. With regard to the third question, the Royal Warrant which granted children's allowance does not apply to officers drawing Indian pay. But a revision of the Indian rates of pay of subalterns, and the extension of officers in receipt of Indian pay of the grant of children's allowance is being considered by the Government of India.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make representations to hasten a decision in this matter in view of the fact that officers of the lowest rank—lieutenants—are receiving no higher pay while serving in India than while serving in France; and that, therefore, their wives and children are quite as much in need of these allowances as those officers in the British Army?
I will bear in mind what the hon. Gentleman says.
Food Supplies
Cadets' Rations (Holidays)
4.
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty if boys at Osborne and Dartmouth receive during the term or the holidays rations in excess of those allowed to other boys of the same age; and, if so, what is the difference in the rations?
Perhaps my hon. Friend will put this question down again next week. The colleges are in vacation, and I have not been able to obtain the necessary information in time for reply to-day.
17.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if young men at Woolwich and Sandhurst receive during the term or the holidays rations in excess of those allowed to other young men of the same age; and, if so, what is the difference in the rations?
During the term the scale of rations for cadets of Woolwich and Sandhurst is the same as that for soldiers of similar age in graduated battalions. No arrangements for their feeding in the holidays are made by the military authorities.
Are they on the scale of the Home Defence Army?
They are on a special scale suitable for boys under training.
Does that apply to those at Training Cadet Schools?
I am not quite clear upon that point. Perhaps my hon. Friend will give me notice.
Is it not the case that the physical work required of these young men at Woolwich and Sandhurst is very much greater than for others?
I think it is a matter of common knowledge and universal acceptance that boys between seventeen and nineteen want a larger proportion of food than more mature adults.
Prisoners' Rations
19.
asked whether any German prisoners are or have been during the last month allowed 1 lb. of butter per week?
The answer is in the negative.
Camp Rations
20 and 21.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) what is the general rule with regard to staff- sergeants or other non-commissioned officers who are allowed to live outside camp with their wives and families in respect of rations; have they the same privilege as commissioned officers and are allowed to draw rations from the camp to be consumed at home, or must they choose between drawing their rations and consuming them in camp, or else accept 7s. per week in lieu of rations and buy their rations in the town on the usual scale allowed by food ticket to the ordinary civilian; is the general Regulation on the subject carried out at Grantham Camp; (2)whether non-commissioned officers living out of camp are not given the privilege of drawing their rations and consuming them out of camp, but have instead to accept 7s. per week in lieu of rations and live on the civilian scale allowed by food tickets; whether, as a result, such non-commissioned officers can only obtain 15 ozs. of meat per week as against a soldier's ration of 70 ozs.; is he aware that in consequence it is difficult for a man engaged in physical instruction or who may be sent abroad at short notice to keep fit; and will the War Office issue instructions that the same privileges be accorded to non-commissioned officers as are given to commissioned officers in this matter?
A soldier living with his family receives a consolidated money allowance to cover rations, lodgings, etc. When in receipt of this allowance, the soldier is not entitled to draw rations in kind. The question whether any alteration should be made in the existing Regulations or in the rate of the consolidated allowance is being considered.
Is this rate 7s. per week?
No; there is a consolidated allowance, which, speaking from memory, amounts to 20s. or 21s. a week.
Dates (Retail Prices)
33.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether his attention has been drawn to the retail prices at which dates are selling; and whether he has considered the advisability of fixing the selling price?
37.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether any control price for the sale of dates has been fixed; whether there is any adequate supply in this country to enable dates to be supplied with any approach to uniformity throughout the country; and whether he is aware that the only dates obtainable in most shops cost between 2s. 6d. and 3s. per 1b.?
There are two distinct classes of dates sold in this country—Persian dates, of which a considerable quantity has been purchased by the Ministry of Food; and Tunis and Egyptian dates, of which small amounts have arrived on private account. The latter are in the nature of a luxury, generally packed in fancy boxes, and no maximum price has been fixed for them. The maximum retailprice of the Persian dates, which are now being distributed, is fixed by Order at 6d. a lb. The supply available is about one-third of a normal year's supply, and is being distributed with uniformity throughout the United Kingdom through the ordinary trade channels
Can the hon. Gentleman give us any idea when these dates will be likely to be distributed and be obtainable at the ordinary shops?
I understand that already at one or two places there are small queues of date-eaters waiting outside the shops.
34.
asked what is the quantity of dates to be sold at 6d. per lb. which have been imported; and are they all being put on the market?
The total amount imported is 6,300 tons. Of this quantity 470 tons were distributed to the Admiralty and the Navy and Army Canteen Board, 100 tons arrived in an unsatisfactory condition, which did not allow of their being kept, and were, therefore, sold immediately; 330 tons are being held back as a reserve, and the remainder are being put on the market.
How soon does the hon. Gentleman expect the dates will be put on the market, as he says there are queues waiting for them?
The only reason for holding them back is that we are awaiting additional supplies, and desire to place them on the market at one time.
Heavy Manual Workers
35.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in view of the scarcity of cheese and the fact that it is a necessary diet for those engaged on heavy work, the Ministry would arrange for such persons only being entitled to buy cheese?
The question of the supply and distribution of cheese is at present under consideration, and I will see that my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion is borne in mind.
36.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what precautions the Ministry are taking to see that only those engaged on heavy work are furnished with the special cards for heavy workers?
Under the provisional arrangement now in force, supplementary ration cards for heavy workers are issued only on an individual application, stating the nature of the work and verified by a certificate by the employer or other responsible person. The general subject of supplementary rations is under further consideration. I am in consultation with the representatives of organised labour, and hope to make an announcement shortly.
Can the hon. Gentleman say how many supplementary rations have been issued up to the present time?
No; I only know that many thousands of the forms have been correctly filled up and the applications made, but as to the exact number, I should require notice.
Steamship "Glenart Castle" (Loss)
5.
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can now give the explanation of Commander Sir Edward Nicholl as to his statement that the German submarine which sank the "Glenart Castle" received information by a spy from Newport, that there were spies in every port in the Bristol Channel, and that he knew because he was examination officer for the Bristol Channel?
Sir Edward Nicholl was at the time serving under the War Office. He has been asked for an ex- planation by that Department. I understand his explanation has not yet been received, but that steps are being taken by the War Office to hastem the reply.
How many weeks have passed since this statement was made?
The statement was made on the 3rd March, and on the 11th March I said that an explanation would be asked for. I shall have the opportunity myself of speaking to Sir Edward Nicholl on Tuesday.
His Majesty's Ship "Vindictive" (Public View)
6.
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether it is proposed to repair His Majesty's ship "Vindictive" or to leave this historic ship in her present condition as an example and inspiration to the public?
Representations in the sense of the latter part of my hon. and gallant Friend's question have already reached us from a number of quarters The matter is under consideration.
Russia
7.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will say whether the United States and France have now Ambassadors in Russia
The answer is in the affirmative, but they are not accredited to any Russian Government.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say why the British Government have not someone there of equal dignity to those two foreign representatives?
I have said these Ambassadors are not accredited. They are not acting as Ambassadors.
47.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that Mr. Konstantine Dmitrivitch Nabokoff, who was dismissed from his post in London by the Russian Government, is now employed by the so-called Russian Government Committee, at India House, Kingsway; whether Mr. Nabokoff has at any time during the past six months asked for or received any financial assistance from the British Government, either for himself or for the Russian Government Committee; and whether he will consult the present Russian Government as to whether Mr. Nabokoff should be returned to Russia or conscripted with other Russians into the British Army?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. The answer to the first and third parts of the question is in the negative; to the second part in the affirmative.
Can we be told how much money has been advanced by the Government to representatives of the Russian Czarist Government—not the present Government?
That is a question of which I shall require notice.
Diplomatic Service (Mr G Young)
8.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state by what Government Departments and on what duties Mr. George Young has been employed since he ceased to be a member of the Diplomatic Service?
Mr. Young obtained employment at the Admiralty.
Emperor Of Austria
9.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will publics has a White Paper so much information as to the letter of the Emperor of Austria to Prince Sixte of Bourbon and of the steps taken in consequence thereof as has been communicated to the French Chamber of Deputies?
The question appears still to be under discussion by the Parliamentary Commissions of the Navy, Army, and Foreign Affairs, who, as far as I am aware, have not yet reported to the French Chamber. No action, therefore, of the nature suggested to the hon. Member Appears possible at present, but I will arrange that the House shall be put in possession of any public declaration made by the French Government on the subject.
Ceylon
Appointment Of Governor
10.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the President of the Ceylon Reform League is Sir P. Arunachalam, a retired Ceylon Civil servant and a member of the Ceylon Executive Council; and whether this representative of Ceylon native opinion will be consulted in any proposal to appoint a new Governor of Ceylon?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and to the second part in the negative.
11.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received from the Ceylon Reform League any protest against the proposed appointment of Sir Hugh Clifford as Governor of Ceylon; whether he is aware that the late Sir J. Anderson as Governor was regarded with great confidence and was popular with the whole native population, and that Sir Hugh Clifford is regarded as unsympathetic; and whether he will now announce that there is no intention of appointing Sir Hugh Clifford?
The hon. Member will now be aware, from public announcements, that His Majesty has approved the appointment of Sir William Manning as Governor of Ceylon in succession to Sir John Anderson.
May I ask whether the policy of Sir John Anderson will be continued, at the definite wish of the Government, by the new Governor?
That question does not arise out of the answer.
I will put it down.
Matabele Expedition
Offers To Natives
12, 13, and 14.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) whether he has considered the document disclosed before the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council on 25th April, alleged to have been signed by Sir L. S. Jameson on 14th August, 1893; whether he is aware that this document purports to offer free farms of 3,000 morgen each to each member of the Victoria Force for Matabeleland; whether this document was issued at the time with the knowledge or sanction of the Colonial Office; on what date the Colonial Office was first made acquainted with the terms or tenor of these promises; (2) whether he is aware that in a case now being heard by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council it was disclosed that each member of the Victoria Force which took part in the Matabele Expedition in 1892 was offered fifteen reef and five alluvial claims; whether this offer was made with the knowledge or authority of the British Government; whether it has been at any time subsequently confirmed or admitted; whether it is the practice of the Colonial Office to offer such territorial considerations to persons taking part in expeditions under British command; (3) whether he has seen the report of disclosures made before the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council last week, in which the loot taken in the Matabele Expedition of 1893 was apportioned as to one-half to the British South Africa Company and one-half to the officers and men of the Victoria Force; whether this arrangement, which meant depriving the natives of their means of peaceful livelihood, was made after consultation with the Colonial Office or any officials acting under the Colonial Office; if not, whether at any later date it was communicated to the Colonial Office; if so, what action was taken by the Colonial Office on hearing the terms of the proclamation of Sir L. S. Jameson, who offered these terms to the Chartered Company and its servants?
The disclosures referred to in the hon. Member's three questions have long been matters of discussion, and the facts and their bearing on the position of the natives were raised in the House of Commons at the time. They have only attracted attention now in consequence of the proceedings before the Privy Council, and I must decline further discussion of them while the case is still before the tribunal.
In view of the possible misuse of these revelations by the enemy in neutral countries, can the Government make some statement on the subject?
No; I do not think that would be at all desirable.
Why not?
Soldiers (Attendance At Meetings)
15.
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether any further speeches on the War which soldiers are compelled to attend, such as that recently delivered at Blackpool, have been or are intended to be arranged?
I regret that my inquiries are not yet complete, but I will write to my hon. Friend as soon as I am in a position to do so.
Prisoners Of War (Refusal To Work)
18.
asked the Undersecretary of State for War what are the disciplinary measures which officers in charge of German prisoners of war are allowed to take if the prisoners refuse to do a fair amount of work?
Combatant prisoners of war can be dealt with:
Could the right hon. Gentleman say what these punishments are?
I have just told my hon. and gallant Friend.
Army Dental Surgeons
22.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if his attention has been drawn to reports received from a dental surgeon to seven Red Cross hospitals to the effect that many men have been invalided home as a result of bad teeth, and that the recovery of others who are wounded is retarded as a result of septic teeth, also that most of these men had bad teeth when they joined, and were sent out to the front without proper dental treatment; and whether, in view of the necessity of utilising our manpower to the full, the War Office will now take steps to place the dental examination of the teeth of recruits and the dental care of serving soldiers on a more satisfactory basis?
The War Office has already taken steps to place the dental examination of the teeth of recruits and the dental care of serving soldiers on a satisfactory basis.
23.
asked how many dental surgeons are now employed as such in the Army; how many dental surgeons previously employed as combatants have received dental commissions; if it is proposed to increase the number of dental surgeons holding commissions; and, if so, by what number?
The total number of dental surgeons now employed in the Army is 584; 233 dental surgeons who were previously employed as combatants have received dental commissions. It is proposed to increase the number of dental surgeons holding commissions, but the actual number is not fixed.
Military Service
Medical Officers (Temporary)
24.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether an official memorandum has recently been sent to temporary medical officers in France whose yearly contracts are about to expire, stating that they will require to renew their agreements unless their release is asked for by some public body or by a medical practitioner requiring their services at home; and. if so, having regard to the terms of the Military Service Act, will he say why this action has been taken?
I am not aware of any memorandum of the nature suggested by my hon. Friend. A letter from the Ministry of National Service has been sent to all such officers requesting them to continue their services in the Royal Army Medical Corps on the expiration of their contracts. The letter also states that the privilege which has hitherto been accorded of laying before the Central Professional Committees any difficulties which individuals may have in continuing their services, will not be affected.
Volunteer Officers
26.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is now in a position to make any statement with regard to the arrangements made by the Army Council with regard to the status of Volunteer officers who are called up under the new Military Service Act; and will they be transferred as officers in the Army, or will they be placed in some cadet corps for instruction, or will they have to join up as privates?
Volunteer officers and ex-Volunteer officers between the ages of thirty-five and forty-five will be sent to cadet battalions, in so far as there are vacancies. These vacancies arc, however, very few in number. Generally, therefore, the arrangement will be that they will have the opportunity of joining the Inns of Court or Artists' Officers Training Corps, where there will be special platoons appropriate to their age and class. This applies only to Volunteer officers and ex-Volunteer officers who held their commissions before the passing of the Act.
Royal Army Medical Corps (Railway Fares)
30.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether medical men who are called up to serve as officers in the Royal Army Medical Corps are required to pay their own railway fares from their homes to London; and whether he is prepared to remedy the hardship thus caused to doctors resident in Scotland or at a distance from London?
Royal Army Medical Corps officers do not necessarily join for duty in London on first appointment, but proceed from their homes to their stations direct. Free travelling for this journey is not admissible.
Invalided Soldiers
53.
asked the Minister of National Service whether a soldier invalided out of the Army before the War who had served overseas is specifically excluded from being called up under the Schedule of the new Military Service Act?
Any disabled man who has served in the field or at sea in any previous war is excepted from liability to military service by Clause 4 (a) of the First Schedule to the Military Service (No. 2) Act, 1918. If my hon. and gallant Friend has any particular man in mind I will gladly advise him as to his position.
Work Of National Importance
54.
asked the Minister of National Service whether a man who had served for nineteen weeks with the Colours and was discharged on 6th October, 1917, as unfit for war service, and is now an insurance clerk, has to find work of national importance; and, if so, within what time from the 6th October, 1917, has he to find this class of work?
Employment as an insurance clerk is not considered to be work of national importance. A disabled man who is not already on work of national importance is bound to use his best endeavours to obtain such work if he wishes to avail himself of the provisions of the Act. Full particulars of the time within which he should obtain such work and the procedure to be followed are set out in National Service Instruction 29 of 1918, which has been published and widely circulated.
Cannot the hon. Gentleman give the House some further information? How long is a man given after he has been discharged?
Oh, he is officially given a month, but in practice, in genuine cases, we use the greatest elasticity in extending that period.
Civilian And Military Doctors
55.
asked the Minister of National Service if he is aware that in the past military doctors have not paid the slightest attention to the opinions of civilian doctors, and that, in consequence, many men utterly unfit have been called up for service at a useless cost to the country; and if, under the more serious conditions now prevailing, he will see that the opinions of civilian doctors are reasonably considered?
I presume that the statement refers to the practice of the old Recruiting Boards. Under the present arrangements for the medical examination of recruits, every effort is made not only to obtain evidence of each man's medical history, but to weigh this evidence carefully before deciding on a man's grading.
Medical Grading
56.
asked whether medical grade No. 2 now includes the old category B 2 as well as categories B 1 and C 1?
The answer is in the negative. The classification by grades introduced last autumn superseded the former classification by categories. There is no precise parallel between the grades and categories. Men in category B 2 are administratively regarded as in Grade 3 until they are re-examined and graded by a National Service medical board. Thereafter they are liable to the conditions affecting the grade in which they are placed.
The standard of medical grading by National Service medical boards have not been altered. The only variation is, as I stated in answer to the hon. Member for West Leeds on the 18th April, that a slightly lower standard of vision has been adopted in accordance with the views expressed by a committee of military and civil ophthalmic specialists.Would it be possible to give the standard conditions adopted now?
Practically they have been published now, and I believe they are on sale.
Water Companies' Employes
57.
asked whether the Order M.N.S. Form R. 49 cancels the partial exemption granted to employés of water companies over thirty-one years of age in Memorandum R. 165 issued on 5th December last; and whether, in view of the fact that the staffs of skilled men employed by the provincial water companies have been reduced to the minimum necessary for the maintenance of the supply of water in their areas, it is intended to withdraw any more of these men?
The Memorandum referred to in the first part of the question is still in operation, and is not affected by the Decertification Order of 9th April. As regards the latter part, I can only refer my hon. Friend to my reply to his question on the same subject on 25th April.
One-Man Businesses (Scotland)
59.
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether the circular to tribunals regarding one-man businesses has yet been issued in Scotland whereby owners of such businesses will be put on the same footing as they are in England and Wales or whether his Department has still got this matter under consideration?
The circular to which my hon. and learned Friend refers was issued at the beginning of February. It places the owners of one-man businesses in Scotland upon the same footing as similar men in England and Wales.
Soldiers' Leave
25.
asked whether the soldiers who have been three years in Gallipoli, Egypt, and Palestine, as, for example, the l/6th Highland Light Infantry, and who have been moved to France, will be given first leave when circumstances permit, in view of the facts that they have been so long abroad and that they were promised early leave on the evacuation of Gallipoli?
At the present time all leave from France is in abeyance, but I can assure my hon. Friend that cases such as he mentions in his question will receive the sympathetic consideration of the Field-Marshal Commanding-in-Chief as soon as the circumstances permit.
Enemy Shells And Explosives
27.
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he has now completed his inquiries as to whether any of our wounded men in the recent German advance have suffered from any new kind of explosive shell or any new form of gas; and whether he can make any statement on the subject?
Reports have been obtained from various hospitals in the London district, and there does not appear to be any evidence which would lead the medical authorities to believe that any wounds to our soldiers have been caused by a new kind of explosive, chemical shell, or gas used by the enemy.
Wool
29.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether, if a farmer raises objection to sending his wool to any particular wool broker on account of unsatisfactory dealings with him in the past, the district executive officer of the Wool Purchasing Department will give him the option referred to in answer to a question in this House on 19th December last?
As I informed the hon. Member, in answer to the previous question to which he refers, the district executive officer will always consider any reasonable objection raised.
Railway Accommodation (German Prisoners)
42.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been drawn to the fact that at Bournemouth two English women with first-class tickets were turned out of a first-class railway compartment and put into a third-class compartment, in order to permit of German officers under escort occupying the first-class carriage; and whether instructions will be given that in the future no English woman is to be turned out of her seat to make room for any German, and that if there is no empty first-class carriage available German officers will be carried in any compartment regardless of class?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. As regards the first two parts, I would refer my hon. Friend to my reply on Monday last to the hon. and gallant Member for Christchurch. The answer to the last part of the question is in the affirmative.
43.
asked the President of the Board of Trade why an English commercial traveller was recently turned out of a first-class smoking compartment at a station on the Midland Railway to make room for a party of German officer prisoners, and whether he is aware that his luggage was thrown out on the platform by one of the station officials?
If the hon. and gallant Member will let me know when and where the incident to which he refers took place, I will inquire into the circumstances.
Is it necessary to treat these inhuman Huns in this way, by putting them into a first-class compartment, with the result that our own people have to travel by truck or any other way they can?
That is a question of policy which does not arise out of the answer.
Budget Proposals
Excise Duty
49.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that, in addition to the Excise Duty of 50s. per standard barrel of beer, a further surcharge of 25s. per standard barrel has been imposed by the Ministry of Food on munition ale, thus increasing the duty on munition ale to 75s. per standard barrel; what is the amount received from this surcharge on munition ale for the month of April and how has this money been disposed of; and whether Government Departments controlling commodities have the power to surcharge such commodities up to any extent they please without Parliamentary authority or control?
The maximum barrelage which a brewer for sale is authorised to brew under the Intoxicating Liquor (Output and Delivery) Order, 1917, may be increased, within prescribed limits, by such further amount, if any, as in his case may be authorised by licence of the Food Controller if he complies with tin conditions subject to which such licence is granted. In view of the fact that licences to brew additional beer for munition workers must necessarily be confined to brewers in munition areas, it was decided that these licences should be granted only to brewers who were willing to pay to the Food Controller for the credit of the Exchequer a fee of 25s. per standard barrel in excess of the duty. The payments for the month of April will slightly exceed £80,000. I may add that all the areas are now covered by brewers who are willing to accept this condition.
Under what constitutional authority is this surcharge made?
I shall require notice of that question. It is quite a new point to me.
Has this surcharge been made during any part of the financial year ending 31st March, and if so, how much?
That question also I shall require notice of.
Income Tax
50.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that, although it is the general practice to allow clerks to be assessed for the purposes of Income Tax on their average earnings for three years, surveyors of taxes in some places refuse to allow this, especially in cases where a clerk has changed his employment; and whether he will issue Instructions for a uniform procedure of assessing clerks on their average income, as is done in the case of professional men?
I am not aware of the eases to which the hon. Member refers, but if he will give me particulars I will look into the matter.
Professional Men (Incomes)
51.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will favourably consider the insertion in the Finance Bill of a provision rendering professional incomes, where increased emoluments have been earned during the War, liable to the operation of the Excess Profits Tax?
This is a matter which has been very carefully considered, but, having regard to the existing reliefs and allowances in the Excess Profits Duty, the extension of that duty to professions would produce but a small yield, while diverting the energies of surveyors of taxes from other and more profitable Revenue work.
52.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will favourably consider the insertion in the Finance Bill of a provision exempting the income of members of the legal and other learned professions who have given up their practice in order to undertake military or naval duties from the operation of the rule of the three years' average?
Provision already exists to meet the cases contemplated by my hon. Friend. In this connection I would invite his attention to Sections 11 and 12 of the Finance Act, 1917.
Representation Of The People Act, 1918
Service Proxies
38.
asked the President of the Local Government Board when he expects to be able to issue the necessary Order in Council with reference to the appointment or nomination by sailors and soldiers of proxies under the Representation of the People Act, 1918?
An Order in Council on this subject is in course of preparation, but I am not in a position at the moment to say at what date it may be possible to issue it.
Registration Forms
40.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that registration officers in the London area are delivering the new registration forms at houses without making proper inquiry as to the persons residing there and are simply leaving the forms to be filled up by the occupiers and posted to the registration officers; whether he is aware that a large proportion of these forms are not being returned; and whether, with a view of saving labour and time and obtaining efficient registers, he will instruct registration officers to make a proper house-to-house canvass and fill up the forms forthwith by their canvassers on the information obtained?
The view which I hold, and which I have represented in a circular issued to registration officers, is that a house-to-house inquiry will be necessary in practically every registration area. If, later on, the hon. Member becomes aware of cases in which no such inquiry is proposed to be made, and will furnish me with particulars, I will communicate with the registration officer who is responsible for the preparation of the lists. I hope, however, the hon. Member will recognise the extraordinary difficulties under which registration officers are working at the present time.
Increase Of Rent, Etc (Amendment), Bill
39.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether, in view of the influx of aliens due to air raids into residential areas near London, he proposes to introduce a Bill which will protect tenants of houses of a larger annual rental than £26 a year from being dispossessed of their houses by such aliens and others who are willing to pay higher rents?
I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to what I said yesterday on the Third Reading of the Increase of Rents, etc. (Amendment), Bill. I am afraid I cannot give any undertaking to introduce legislation of the kind he desires.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware of the great public feeling on the question, and is it not possible to introduce legislation stopping these aliens from moving about from one place to another during the War?
I am aware of the public feeling, but I am also aware of the fact that there is congestion of business in the House of Commons.
Petrol Supplies
44.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether it is proposed, in the interests of economy of petrol, to place any restriction upon the distances that may be travelled in the country by petrol-driven cars belonging to tradesmen and co-operative stores soliciting orders and delivering goods?
The President of the Board of Trade has recently appointed a Road Transport Board, one function of which will be to determine what further measures are necessary to ensure the most economic use of road transport vehicles. The Road Transport Board, through its local officers, will investigate the questions referred to by the hon. Gentleman, and will decide what restrictions, if any, shall be placed upon the distances travelled by vehicles used for soliciting orders and delivering goods.
House Of Commons (Payment Of Members)
45.
asked the Prime Minister if he is aware that£250,000 is being allotted annually to the payment of Members of this House; that the nation is in need of money, and that this sum represents the interest on£5,000,000 at 5 per cent.; and if he will withhold the salary of Members and use the money so saved for the purpose of paying the interest of such £5,000,000 until such time as the country can better afford the luxury of paid legislators?
I do not see my way to adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the very strong feeling in the country that this House should set an example in this matter?
I dare say there are many people who have that feeling, but I think it would arouse very acute controversy if we were to start that question here.
Dardanelles Commission
46.
asked the Prime Minister whether the proceedings of the Dardanelles Commission will be made public?
I regret that I cannot add anything to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Lanarkshire (North-West) on the 16th January last.
British Ships (Conveyance Of Stores And Troops)
41.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether British ships, when employed for the conveyance of stores or troops for account of the United States, France, or Italy, receive the same rates of remuneration in respect of such employ- ment as are paid by those countries in respect of equivalent services performed by ships on their own register and flying their own flags?
The owners of British requisitioned ships receive British rates of remuneration, irrespective of the service on which the ships are employed. I think the hon. Member will see that that is the only course we could take. The financial arrangements between this country and the Allies on account of shipping services rendered by and to this country are too complicated to be explained within the limits of an answer to a question. Generally, they are on a reciprocal basis.
Exchange Buildings, Glasgow
60.
asked the Minister of Labour, with reference to the new Exchange buildings acquired in Glasgow, whether the present tenants have been informed that they must leave at a very early date; if so, at what date; is he aware that some of these tenants are serving with the forces at the front, while others are dependants of soldiers so serving; and is it intended to evict these?
The tenancies of the present occupants of the premises expire in the ordinary course at Whitsun term day, and the tenants have received formal notice from the proprietors of the premises to give up the premises on the expiration of their tenancies. The Minister of Labour would be prepared to assent to arrangements being made as far as practicable for allowing them to remain in occupation until the premises are required for the necessary work on alterations. My right hon. Friend is informed that one of the tenants is at present serving with the forces, and that the wife of a soldier is the tenant of another part of the premises. Inquiries are being made whether it would be possible to allow either or both of these tenants to occupy a portion of the premises without seriously interfering with the use of the remainder for the work of the Department.
Will these tenants on their return be allowed to utilise the same premises as they are now utilising?
We shall endeavour to make arrangements as suitable as possible for them, and I cannot say more.
Defence Of The Realm Act Regulations
62.
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the fact that E. D. Morel, lately convicted on his own evidence of offences against the Defence of the Realm Regulations, has now joined the Independent Labour Party; whether he is conducting a pro-German propaganda in the country; and whether he proposes to take any steps in the matter?
I have no information to the effect stated in the first two parts of the question. If this person should again contravene the Defence of the Realm Regulations proceedings would at once be taken against him.
Is it not a fact that the only charge that can be made against Mr. Morel was that of accepting the offer made by the niece of the Foreign Secretary to send one of his books, and does he not think that the hon. and gallant Member at this moment might be better employed than in bringing insinuations against a braver man than himself?
I made no insinuations of any kind. I cannot accept the hon. Member's statement as to the nature of the offence, and I do not think it is desirable that I should go into it.
66.
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the police have entered the business premises of Mr. S. H. Street, printer, Mitcham Lane, Streatham, have dismantled all his printing machines, injuring beyond repair one press worth between £40 and £50; whether he knows that the police produced no warrant for these proceedings, and ultimately departed after locking the door and taking away the key; whether he can state under what Regulation the police are allowed to destroy a man's property on the premises and to lock out the man from his own premises; whether the police held an order from a justice of the peace requiring the premises to be closed; if so, why this order was not produced; and for what purpose and under whose instructions these proceedings were taken?
The action referred to in this question was taken by the police under No. 51 of the Defence of the Realm Regulations in connection with the printing of a newspaper called the "Tribunal," and I have no reason to believe that they exceeded their powers. A portion of one machine was accidentally damaged, but I am informed that the damage is very slight. As regards the key, Mr. Street himself handed it to the police officers, saying that he was going away and that he would be obliged if they would lock the place up. When the removal was completed the key was handed back to Mr. Street. There was no necessity for an order from a justice of the peace.
Forcible Feeding, Warrington
63.
asked whether Emanuel Ribeiro, after fourteen months' forcible feeding at Lord Derby's War Hospital, Warrington, is still being forcibly fed at Wormwood Scrubs; whether he has received a letter from Mrs. Ribeiro giving particulars of his emaciated physical condition as a consequence of what he had undergone before his removal to prison; and whether he is now able to recommend the release of Ribeiro, in view of the length of time he has suffered and the uselessness of prolonging this treatment?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The man was received into prison on the 23rd March, and on the same date his wife wrote a letter, of which a copy was sent to me, to the effect that he was in a low state of health and in an emaciated condition. I asked for a special medical report upon the case, which was to the effect that the man was in good health but rather too fat owing to want of exercise. A further medical report received to-day shows that his health continues good and that he is losing fat and gaining muscle and is taking his exercise regularly. It appears to me, therefore, that there are no medical grounds for ordering his release.
Why was this man Ribeiro allowed to stay in this hospital for fourteen months, and who paid for him? Was it Lord Derby, the country, or who?
That question must be: addressed to the War Office.
Women's Army Auxiliary Corps
64.
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the case of the Rev. R. H. Quick, who was fined £40 at the Congleton Borough Police Court on a charge of having spread false reports regarding the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps, which charge was founded on the fact that in a letter to the Secretary of the Social Purity League he had made inquiries as to the truth or otherwise of certain accusations which he bad heard from a soldier friend; and whether he will reduce the fine due to a well-meaning inquiry as to the behaviour of persons enrolled for employment under the Army Council?
My attention has not been called to this case, and no reason has at present been shown for reducing the fine. A well-meaning question, if published, may do great harm.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are too many of these well-meaning inquiries with regard to the women of this country at the present time?
I think my hon. and gallant Friend knows that I take that view.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that if you crush all inquiries you only create and increase suspicion?
Enemy Aliens
65.
asked whether Germans who have been ordered from East Coast towns because of the chief constables reporting them as dangerous there, may now come to London to live and daily take part in the business of the City with impunity, in the same way as E. A. Meyer, who was ordered out of Westcliff-on-Sea and who immediately sought refuge in London and daily attends an office of German stockbrokers in Throgmorton Street; and will he say why espionage is possible in seaport towns where it is impossible in London?
I have nothing to add to the answers which I gave on the 24th April with regard to the case of E. A. Mcyer, a naturalised British subject. It is obvious that restrictions which are desirable in seaport towns do not necessarily apply to London.
Are we to understand that German refugees from seaport towns are coming to London in any number?
The hon. Gentleman knows that that is not so. This man is a British subject.
Elementary School Children (Maintenance Grants)
31.
asked the President of the Board of Education whether local education authorities have now the power to award maintenance Grants to children attending elementary schools beyond the age of fourteen; and, if so, under what conditions?
A local education authority have, under Section 11 of the Education (Administrative Provisions) Act, 1907, power to aid by scholarships or bursaries the instruction in public elementary schools of scholars from the age of twelve up to the limit of age fixed for the provision of instructions in a public elementary school by Section 22 of the Education Act, 1902.
Continuation Schools
32.
asked the President of the Board of Education whether, under Clause 10 of the Education Bill or otherwise, it will be possible for a local education authority and for persons who set up a continuation school under the control and direction of the local education authority to provide instruction for a greater number of hours than provided in the Education Bill?
The answer is in the affirmative, but attendance for the additional hours will not be obligatory.
Church Temporalities (Wales)
61.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the Government actuary, Sir Alfred Watson, as stated in the Third Report of the Commissioners of Church Temporalities in Wales, has made a Report as to the operation of paragraph 2 of the Fourth Schedule of the Welsh Church Act, 1914; whether the Report has been submitted to the Representative Body of the Church in Wales; and whether the Government are prepared, in order that Welsh representatives in this House as well as the representatives of the Church should be made acquainted with its contents, to lay the Report upon the Table?
This Report was received and was communicated by the Commissioners to the Representative Body with a view to an agreement being arrived at in accordance with the Act. As, failing agreement, the question will have to be referred to arbitration, I do not think it desirable that the Report should be laid upon the Table at the present moment.
Business Of The House
Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to ask the House to sit on Friday?
If, as I hope, the Report of the Financial Resolutions be obtained to-day, it will not be necessary to sit on Friday.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the Home Rule Bill will be introduced?
No, Sir; I cannot.
Is there any prospect of the Education Bill being taken up while the Home Rule Bill is being worked out?
I shall state tomorrow the business for next week, and perhaps I shall be able to say something about it then.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the House will rise for Whitsuntide?
No; I am sorry to say I cannot.
Ordered, "That the Proceedings on Consideration of the Reports of the Committee of Ways and Means of the 22nd and 23rd April be not interrupted this night under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), and may be entered upon at any hour although opposed." — [ Mr. Bonar Law.]
Postal Rates
I wish to ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether it is possible for Members of this House to discuss and express their opinion in any way during the progress of the Budget Resolutions upon the postal rates, and particularly upon the rates to be imposed upon letters to our troops? As stated in the White-Paper which was issued on the 22nd of April, the Bill introduced by the Postmaster-General yesterday only refers to increased rates on postcards and postal packets. By the Act of 1908 the Postmaster-General has power by Warrant to increase the postal rate of letters, but there is a considerable amount of feeling with regard to the second portion of this proposed increase relating to letters to our troops. I would like to know whether it is possible for us on the Budget Resolutions to express our opinion on this point before it is too late, in view of the fact that the Resolution considered in Committee on the 22nd of April contained these words:
Could this matter not be discussed under those words?"That it is expedient to amend the law relating to the National Debt, Customs and Inland Revenue (including Excise), and to make further provision in connection with finance."
Perhaps I may be allowed to say at once that there is a technical difficulty as mentioned by my hon. and gallant Friend. I am not sure that there would be an opportunity of discussing it, but it is quite clear that the House ought to have an opportunity of discussing a matter of this kind, and, if it cannot be got in the ordinary way, I shall arrange for an opportunity before the matter is finally settled in one way or another.
In thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that answer, may I ask whether the House is to have an opportunity of expressing its opinion on this proposal by vote?
In saying that I would give the House an opportunity, I meant a full opportunity. I am sure that the House may rely upon that opportunity being given.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman satisfied with the answer that he has just obtained, or does he want further advice in the matter?
No, Sir; I am very grateful to the Government for treating the matter in that way.
Private Business
Pontypool Gas and Water Bill [ Lords]
Red Cross and Order of St. John Bill [ Lords],
Pontypridd and Rhondda Joint Water Board Bill [ Lords],
Railway Passengers Assurance Bill [ Lords],
Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Message From The Lords
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers on the Pontypool Gas and Water Company; and for other purposes." [Pontypool Gas and Water Bill [ Lords.]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to enable the British Red Cross Society and the Grand Priory of the Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem in England to apply to the public advantage the residue of their property acquired for the purposes of the present War; and for other purposes." [Red Cross and Order of Saint John Bill [ Lords.]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to extend the periods limited by the Pontypridd and Rhondda Water Act, 1913, for the purchase of lands and the construction of works, and to revive powers for purchase of lands." [Pontypridd and Rhondda Joint Water Board Bill [Lords.]
And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to consolidate the Acts relating to the Rail-
Year. | Finance Act. | Assumed Income. | Allowances.* | Residue of Income charged to Income Tax. | Rate of Tax. | Amount of Tax payable. | ||||||||||
Abatement. | Children. | |||||||||||||||
(1) | (2) | (3) | (4) | (5) | (6) | (7) | (8) | |||||||||
£ | s. | d. | £ | s. | d. | £ | s. | d. | s. | d. | £ | s. | d. | |||
1913–14 | 1913 | 166 | 13 | 4 | 166 | 13 | 4 | Nil. | — | Nil. | ||||||
1914–15 | 1914 and 1914 | 166 | 13 | 4 | 166 | 13 | 4 | Nil. | — | Nil. | ||||||
(Session 2) | £ | £ | s. | d. | ||||||||||||
1915–16 | 1915 and (No. 2) 1915 | 500 | 0 | 0 | 100 | 75 | 0 | 0 | 325 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 9 3/5 | 29 | 5 | 0 |
1916–17 | 1916 | 500 | 0 | 0 | 100 | 75 | 0 | 0 | 325 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 36 | 11 | 3 |
1917–18 | 1917 | 500 | 0 | 0 | 100 | 75 | 0 | 0 | 325 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 36 | 11 | 3 |
1918–19 | Proposed | 1,000 | 0 | 0 | — | — | 1,000 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 150 | 0 | 0 | ||
1919–20 | — | Same as in 1918–19 if circum stances remain unaltered. | ||||||||||||||
* The total Income for 1918–19 exceeds the limit to which the proposed wife allowance will apply. |
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state the detail and the total amounts that an owner, with a wife and three children, who was also way Passengers Assurance Company, and to extend the objects and business of the Company, and to make new provisions for the government of the Company and the-management of its affairs; and for other purposes." [Railway Passengers Assurance Bill [Lords.]
Orders Of The Day
Ways And Means—22Nd April
Budget Resolutions
Resolution reported,
Continuation Of Duties (Customs)
1. "That the following duties of Customs, imposed by Part I. of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, and continued by Section one of the Finance Act, 1917, until the first day of August, nineteen hundred and eighteen, shall continue to be charged from that date until the first day of August, nineteen hundred and nineteen, that is to say:
Duty. | Section of Finance (No. 2)Act. 1915. | |
Increased Duty on Tea | … | 1 |
Additional Duties on Dried Fruit | … | 8 |
Additional Duty on Motor Spirit | … | 10 (1) |
New Import Duties | … | 12 |
And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."
Resolution agreed to.
Resolution reported,
Continuation Of Duties (Excise)
2. "That the following duties of Excise imposed by Part I. of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, and continued by Section two of the Finance Act, 1917, until the first day of August, nineteen hundred and eighteen, shall continue to be charged until the first day of August, nineteen hundred and nineteen, that is to say:
Duty. | Section of Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915. | |
Additional Duty on Motor Spirit | 10(2) | |
Additional Medicine Duties | … | 11 |
And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."
Resolution agreed to.
Resolution reported,
>Sugar (Customs)
3. "That in lieu of the duties of Customs now payable on sugar imported into Great Britain or Ireland there shall, on and after the twenty-third day of April, nineteen hundred and enghteen, be charged the following duties:
£ | s. | d. | ||
Sugar of a polarisation exceeding 98 degrees | the cwt. | 1 | 5 | 8 |
£ | s. | d. | ||
Sugar of a polarisation not exceeding 76 degrees | the cwt. | 0 | 12 | 4 |
and intermediate dates varying between 25s. 8d. and 12s. 4d. on sugar of a polarisation not exceeding 98 and exceeding 76 degrees. | ||||
Molasses (including all sugar and extracts from sugar which cannot be tested by polariscope): | ||||
if containing 70 per cent. or more of sweetening matter | the cwt. | 0 | 16 | 3 |
if containing less than 70 per cent. and more than 50 per cent. of sweetening matter | the cwt. | 0 | 11 | 8 |
if containing not more than 50 per cent. of sweetening matter | the cwt. | 0 | 5 | 8 ½ |
Glucose: | ||||
Solid | the cwt. | 0 | 16 | 3 |
Liquid | the cwt. | 0 | 11 | 8 |
Saccharine (including substances of a like nature or use) | the oz. | 0 | 8 | 3 |
and so in proportion for any less quantity.
And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
I do not think that we ought to pass this without offering a few observations against this very large increase in the cost of living, particularly of the middle and working classes. Sugar has already been considerably enhanced in price, and I do think that we ought to offer some protest against this further increase in the duty. The Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed to think that the subsidy on the loaf compensated for this material increase in the cost of living, but I think we should follow the lead of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. A. Henderson), who suggested that the working classes would rather that the food taxes were completely abolished and that the Income Tax were developed or that a direct tax upon wages was imposed. It would be out of Order to speak of that matter just now, but one must offer some alternative if we protest against this particular tax. The same argument applies to many of the other taxes, such as the Luxury Tax, which tries to tax the thing rather than the result. I hope that many Members, while not prepared perhaps to divide the House on the Motion, will protest against the tax, which unquestionably falls heavily upon those least able to bear it, and which will certainly lead to a further increase in the cost of living. The right hon. Gentleman made out no case for this serious increase in the duty upon sugar, and I believe that many people will protest against it. It seems to me to be unjust. It is not as if the particular classes which it hits are not already feeling very much the increased cost of living. It falls upon old age pensioners and upon those with fixed incomes, and will materially affect the health and comfort of the community There is no justification for the increase which is now proposed.
I wish to join with my hon. Friend in protesting against the very serious increase in the duty on sugar. The only real justification offered by the Government for this charge was that the classes mainly affected by it were receiving a considerable benefit from the Treasury in the shaps of the subsidy offered upon the price of the loaf. That is a kind of argument which we should not accept in relation to a proposal of this sort. If there is objection, and I have always believed that there is grave objection, to the system of subsidising for the purpose of lowering the price of bread, then it is the duty of the Government, instead of seeking by way of taxation to obtain from those affected the equivalent of that which the Government is granting, to reduce the amount of the subsidy direct. That is the obvious, the practical and the logical course to take. In view of the new situation that has arisen in relation to rationing generally, it was the obvious duty of the Government to reconsider the whole policy in regard to bread, with a view to putting an end to this objectionable system of a subsidy and providing bread to the public on a rationed basis and of a decent quality. The justification to which I have referred is open to this further objection: In order to justify an increase in permanent taxation, the Chancellor of the Exchequer uses a subsidy which is temporary in character. He says, in effect, that because the working classes during the present year, and, possibly, for the remainder of the War, are to be entitled to bread at a price lower than the natural price, therefore he is justified in increasing taxation on a basis which is likely to be permanent after the War. It is from the point of view of the permanent effect of this tax that the House ought to discuss it. As my hon. Friend has pointed out, this tax falls with peculiar severity upon the poorer classes of the community. It is true that the great mass of the working classes at the present time are probably able to bear it, that the working population of this country have been during the last year and the year before enjoying higher wages than at any previous period, and that a larger number of them have been in the enjoyment of such wages. But that must not let us conceal from our minds the fact that there are large numbers of very poor and deserving people who are not in that fortunate position. There are, for example, the pensioners to whom my hon. Friend referred, but there is an even larger class than these; there are the dependants of the soldiers and sailors who are at present serving the country. It is quite true that these separation allowances have been increased, but everybody who regards these separation allowances in relation to the purchasing power of money will agree that the increase in these paration allowances has not by any means kept pace with the increase in the cost of living, that this class is the class which is suffering specially by the War, and that undoubtedly this form of indirect taxation is going to affect them most severely. If you take the class of officers, you find that a special provision is made in respect of the Income Tax for serving officers. The increases of the Income Tax which affect the civilian population do not affect them. But when you take this form of indirect taxation, which affects the wives and children of the serving soldiers of the rank and file, although they are not receiving any substantial increase in their allowances, they nevertheless have to bear this extra burden. If we look at this tax from the point of view of this very large class, the House should hesitate before giving its assent to the increase of this particular tax.
Before assenting to this tax we should also look at the industrial effects of it. During the War, of course, the question of the sugar which is used as raw material is not a factor of particular importance in relation to the trade of the country. But undoubtedly the Chancellor of the Exchequer is looking at this as a permanent tax. We know that in the past the sugar-using trades have been a very important part of the export trades of this country. They have been very large, very valuable, and very prosperous trades. When the War comes to an end, undoubtedly it will be the object of those engaged in these trades to regain their old position as soon as possible, and it will be the interest of the country that those engaged in these trades should regain that position. When they have to face the new situation after the War, and when they will be endeavouring to restore their broken fortunes, they will find themselves handicapped by the very severe burden which this tax will impose. The probability in that situation is that you will have an outcry, when the War is over, both from the users of sugar and from the consumers who are affected, for a reduction of this tax, and that outcry may be so great in volume and dimensions that the Government then may not be able to resist it. It is the duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer now to take a long view, and to look at the possible difficulties, either of himself or his probable successor, at that time. It will be a very inconvenient thing for the Chancellor of the Exchequer of that time to have to contemplate the reduction of any form of taxation, but you may have a situation in which the popular forces demanding such a reduction are so great that the Treasury and this House will not be able to resist it. It is of the utmost importance that such a probability should be in the minds of the Government and the House now, when this suggestion of an increase is under discussion. It is not as if this were the only means that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has now of raising increased revenue. There are other classes in the community upon whom increased taxation could have been imposed without any of the grave objections which I have mentioned as affecting this proposed increase. Everybody who has taken part in the Budget Debates recognises the courage of the Chancellor -of the Exchequer's proposals, that he has faced the situation fairly and courageously, and that he has endeavoured to place the burden upon the community which is commensurate with the national liabilities. But, while we agree in admiring the way in which he has faced this difficult task, we are entitled to offer some detailed criticism of particular methods. This particular increase might well have been dispensed with on account of the facts I have mentioned, and the Revenue which the right hon. Gentleman would lose by that sacrifice could have been obtained by him by a very slight addition to the increase of the Income Tax which he has imposed. That would have been a preferable method. The increased burden imposed on Income Tax payers would have been comparatively slight, and there would not have been anything like the hardship which is likely to arise to very large classes owing to this increase in the Sugar Duty. I think the considerations which I have mentioned should be present in the minds of the House when discussing the proposals of the Government. It is true that we in this House, as well as the Chancellor of the Exchequer, should endeavour to see that the burden of the War is apportioned as fairly as possible among the different classes of the community, but when an addition to taxation is proposed such as that which we are now discussing, which involves a very heavy burden upon people who have not benefited by the War at all —namely, the particular class of dependants of those who are fighting —when we are discussing a burden which involves that hardship, I think we should ask the Government to reconsider the situation, and reconsider it in the light of this fact, that increases of taxation which would have affected officers have been modified so as to relieve them of any possible hardship, and that the same mitigation should be allowed in the case of those who are fighting in the ranks.I would like to say, with regard to the remarks which have fallen from my two hon. Friends opposite, that I entirely agree with them in the protest they have made against the Sugar Tax, but it occurs to me that a more convenient time to do this would be when the Finance Bill comes up in Committee, and when we have a Clause imposing this new tax, and when the omission of that Clause can be moved. I rise now only, as far as that matter is concerned, to tell my two hon. Friends that why I do not support the action they are taking now is because I think the more convenient course would be to move the rejection of the Clause imposing this tax in Committee on the Bill, and by that time we would have had an opportunity of seeing what the country thinks of it, and we could do it altogether in a more effective and measured way than it is possible to do it this afternoon. I was sorry that my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry (Mr. D. Mason) spoke of not dividing the House. What is the use of raising these points if you do not divide on them? I hope my hon. Friend will pluck up his courage, and that when some of us move the rejection of this Clause when we have the Bill in Committee that he will support us. But leaving the question of sugar, I want to refer to one point in the very ingenious speech we have just listened to. Perhaps the Chancellor of the Exchequer will allow me to ask him this one question. I do not know whether he heard a remark which fell from the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down about the subsidy for bread. That was a very ingenious remark, and I would wish that we could have an answer to it from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, so that we should not have to raise it again. As we have the matter up now, perhaps the Chancellor of the Exchequer would explain to us why he did not adopt the course of taking so much off the bread subsidy instead of maintaining the subsidy at its full amount, and then taking the opportunity of taxing a certain article, especially sugar, which affects exactly the same consumers as bread —putting a heavy tax on them while the subsidy is given in regard to another article. It seems a moat confused method of finance, and a very ingenious problem has been put to the House by my hon. Friend who has just sat down, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should take an opportunity of explaining why he did not adopt that course. If he does so, I am sure the House will be glad to hear him.
I think the discussion which has been raised by my hon. Friends behind me is one to be expected. It has been raised very fairly and very considerately, and it demands an answer. The simplest answer to make at this stage of the proceedings —and I quite agree with my right hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Lough) that perhaps the more convenient time for a detailed discussion of this matter would be during the progress of the Finance Bill rather than on the Report stage of the Resolution —is to say that the reason which has guided the Government in imposing the tax is this: It has been argued that we should distribute the present taxation we have had to raise as fairly as we can through all classes of the community. Hon. Members will have noticed in the Budget that this duty on sugar is practically the only tax which affects people in receipt of incomes lower than £500 a year —that is, additional tax [An HON. MEMBER: "What about tobacco?"] I mean a compulsory tax. You do not pay the Tobacco Tax unless you smoke.
Do not take sugar in your tea!
With regard to sugar, I think that perhaps hon. Members who are opposed to this additional burden are a little apt to lose sight of what is its actual incidence, and at the risk of being a little tedious I must take one or two minutes in pointing out what is the actual incidence. The amount of the tax comes to 2s. 8 ½d. per annum per head on the rationed amount of sugar. Well now, consider first of all what that charge is on a household which is in receipt of an income that renders it liable to Income Tax —an income of over £130 a year. It cannot be pretended that any additional hardship is inflicted there, because for each child who is an inmate of a house of that kind there is the additional burden of 2s. 8 ½d. in the year, and there is a rebate allowed off the Income Tax which amounts to 56s. 3d. There has been this year given also a rebate on the Income Tax for the wife — that is over and above what was given last year —a rebate equivalent to that given for one child —so that in all probability almost in every household within Income Tax-paying limits, which include a very large proportion of the working classes of to-day, there is no additional burden imposed by this tax; indeed, I think I should be probably be nearer the mark if I say there is a decrease in the burden.
Will not my hon. Friend admit that the tax presses on the whole consumption of sugar, which is £80 per head?
I think my right hon. Friend rather exaggerates. I admit, of course, that the tax presses throughout the sugar trade, but I am advised that the amount of sugar used in the sugar trade for articles of consumption to-day would increase the amount of what we may call the direct taxation on sugar by about 30 per cent.
Surely it presses on the whole consumption!
4.0 P.M.
Certainly, but the pressure would not be so great as my right hon. Friend says. I am advised that the pressure would increase the tax by about 30 per cent. It would add something like 1s. per head to the year's burden. Then we come to the class, of whom the hon. and learned Member for Lanark (Mr. Pringle) spoke, coming below the Income Tax-paying class. There, I admit, that the very smallest increase is an increase which can be felt; but we have to remember that if you consider a tax of this kind right to put on, it is not possible to make exemptions from it. It is, I am afraid, the fact that to a certain point those at the bottom of the scale do feel, and must feel, every increase in taxation which is put on But when the hon. Member speaks of the soldiers' dependants as if they were a class without anything to look to beyond what they get in the way of allowances, I cannot follow his argument the whole way, because I do not think that is a literal statement of fact. It is this very class —the class below the Income Tax-paying class —of whom, I think, we may fairly use the argument which was urged by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that, at all events, if they are to pay this very small increase in what is to them an almost necessary article they have, on the other side of the balance-sheet, something which is worth more to them, that is, the subsidy on the loaf. To the suggestions made by some hon. Members that we should have reduced the subsidy, the answer is very simple. If we were to reduce the subsidy, we should have advanced against us exactly the same arguments which we have used against us to-day in putting this slight increase on the Sugar Duty as to its effect upon the poorest classes. I hope the sense of the House as a whole will be with me in what I have said, and will agree to pass this Resolution on the Report stage to-day, reserving to itself, quite properly, the right to discuss it subsequently at any length it chooses.
My hon. Friend is such a persuasive speaker that one hardly likes to criticise what he has said, yet I cannot help thinking that he has hardly given a correct view as to what the tax on sugar really means to the very poor. We are not specially concerned at the moment with the tax so far as it affects the Income Tax payer, because, after all, although he is suffering in many ways he is not suffering in not actually getting a sufficient subsistence. Take the case of an agricultural labourer. Last year we passed a measure giving a statutory minimum wage of 25s. to the agricultural labourer. What does this tax on sugar mean in the case of the agricultural labourer? At the present time a family of five will be able to get 2 ½ lbs. of sugar per week. The total tax on that amount of sugar is 7d. Therefore, if the agricultural labourer pays 7d. per week in tax, that means 30s. per year on a wage of 25s., and really amounts to an Income Tax of 5 ½d. — [An HON. MEMBER: "Weekly? "] —No; but it comes to an equivalent of an Income Tax of 5 ½d., and it is in cases like that where the real hardship comes. Take the million old-age pensioners. The Government very rightly have put up the pension from 5s. to 7s. 6d. What does this tax mean to these old people? If it is hard on the agricultural labourer, with 25s. per week, it is three times as hard on an old-age pensioner, who has only 7s. 6d. per week.
He has not four people to keep.
I think that is correct, but you cannot put it quite on an average of five, and I think in the case of the old-age pensioner it is a matter of extreme hardship. I would like to know from my right hon. Friend whether he has consulted the Labour portion of the Government in regard to this tax? I notice that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food, in speaking last year on the Sugar Tax, reminded the House of the case of labourers getting only 23s. per week, and he said distinctly that those men could not afford to pay the tax that was then suggested. Then he went on to say:
The right hon. Member for one of the Divisions of Glasgow (Mr. Barnes), who is a member of the War Cabinet spoke a year earlier on this question of sugar, and protested strongly against an additional tax on the ground that so much came from the pockets of the poor. If those protests were valid then, they are valid now, and whilst I agree with what has been said, that bold as the Chancellor of the Exchequer's proposals are in regard to the raising of money, I would like to see more money raised, and I believe more money ought to have been raised. It is not that I am objecting to his raising £10,000,000, but it is the method of raising it that I object to. I believe it would have been far better to have put this on the Income Tax, and let the Income Tax payers find it, instead of getting it from families who really cannot afford to pay. I should also like to draw attention once more, because we are apt to forget these facts, to the very interesting summary that was made by the right hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Barnes) with regard to the findings of the Commissioners who visited the industrial areas to inquire into the unrest there. In speaking of the main factor of unrest, he said:"There are a few millions of people in this country whose level of subsistence is still so low and whose wages are so inadequate in view of the cost of commodities, as to make it undesirable that any additional impost should be placed upon them."
We know perfectly well that since then the Government have been trying, mainly through the action of the Food Controller, to reduce the cost of food, and all kinds of artificial devices have been adopted to get the cost down, often at very great expense and with very great difficulty, and now the Government are proposing to increase very largely the cost of this very important item of food, which already, I believe, has increased in price, with the duty that has been put upon it, more than any other, with the exception of fish and eggs. I really feel that this is a very serious proposition which the Government have put before us, and one that requires very serious consideration. It has been said again and again —and we are all agreed about this —that the mere putting up of wages to meet this increased cost of living does not really settle the difficulty, because the cost of living goes up with the rise of wages. I am perfectly certain that the increase now suggested in the Sugar Tax will be used all through the country, and I think probably rightly used, in order to ask for increased wages. I fancy that many people in very good positions will regret this, and would have preferred that this money should have been got out of increased Income Tax and not have been taken from the pockets of the poor and from a class of the community many of whom are not, with prices as they are, really getting all they should get for the necessary sustenance of life. I regret very much that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has suggested this tax, and I am sorry to think that he proposes it at a time when I recognise that he has done so much in other ways. I think that is a very serious blot on his financial proposals."All the Commissioners put in the forefront as the leading cause of unrest the fact that the cost of living has increased disproportionately to the advance in wages. The Commissioners are unanimous in regarding this as the most important of the causes of industrial unrest. Not only is it the leading cause of unrest in itself, but its existence in the minds of the workers colours many subsidiary causes in regard to which in themselves there might have been no serious complaint."
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury has again to-day repeated the figures as to the amount of this tax per head of the families in this country. I really do not know why he lays such stress upon the sugar ration. The Estimates of the Treasury are that this tax is to raise £12,000,000. It is not asking the arithmeticians of the Treasury to perform a very difficult sum to see that the average burden upon the individual, if £12,000,000 is distributed, per head of the population amounts to 5s. per head. In any calculation which the hon. Member makes as to the burden which is thrown on a family he cannot put this tax at less than 5s. per head. That is, I think, the burden which will fall upon the people as a result of this tax. My hon. Friend says the tax is small, that it is not a heavy tax, and that It is fair that this part of the population should bear some of the extra taxation. That is one line to take, but the Government does not stick to that line, because after they have said that it is desirable to enforce fresh taxation upon the poorer classes who will mainly feel this burden, they point out that they are giving them back, in one way or another, the equivalent of any fresh taxation that is being put upon them. I think the Government has seriously weakened its case by resting it upon a comparison with the bread subsidy. I do not see what the two things have to do with one another. All through that comparison they make the assumption, which I believe is not justified, that the people of this country are getting the full benefit, in the price of bread, of the large subsidy. I put it to the Government that it would have been quite possible to save out of the bread subsidy, by a readjustment of their arrangement, at least the £12,000,000 which they are raising out of this tax, and they could have done it without raising the price of bread. That is my very strong impression.
I should be very glad if my right hon. Friend would toll mo how this could be done.
It will hardly be in order to do so now. I believe a large part of the subsidy is going in too large profits, which I have no doubt will come back to the Chancellor in the shape of excess profits from the bakers and others; but by the arrangements which they have made they are wasting a large part of the bread subsidy, and they could have got the £12,000,000 which they are raising from sugar by lowering the bread subsidy without at the same time raising the price of bread. If I am right, the position is a very serious one, and even now the Government might reconsider the position before the Budget passes into law.
I very much regret to have listened to the speech of the Financial Secretary. He did precisely the same as the Chancellor of the Exchequer did when he introduced the Budget in describing the effect this tax was going to have and the burden it would impose on the working classes. Neither speech is true nor in accordance with the facts. These are the words used by the Chancellor of the Exchequer:
I asked him in his second speech whether this applied to the sugar which was sold over the counter. He said Yes." But that does not cover sugar which is consumed by the working classes. The total yield of the tax is £13,200,000, and not the £12,000,000 which has been indicated. Docs the House think for a moment that merchants are going to handle £13,200,000, and put it out in duty, without demanding a profit upon the duty which they have paid? It is a perfect farce. When you buy sugar, as I have bought it myself, you do not consider how much duty is in the sugar. You consider what is the price of it, and whatever the price is you put that into the stuff which you are manufacturing, and it is upon the basis of the total amount of the ingredients in the thing you are manufacturing that you estimate the profit. Therefore it is absolutely unfair for the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Financial Secretary to deliver speeches calculating first of all that it was going to be equal to 1 ¼d. a lb. per fortnight and now that it is going to be 2s. 8 ½d. a year. That statement is contrary to fact, and I can only regret that two men occupying such high positions should try to throw dust in the eyes of the working classes by declaring that that is the amount they will have to bear. Another consideration is the price of goods which will be increased by this tax. There is an enormous number of articles which contain sugar, and when you get a large increase in duty the burden of the tax will always be greater upon the people who use every article in which sugar is contained than the duty itself warrants. It is no use blaming manufacturers or traders. They have their outlay of money and they must get their profit upon it. I regret beyond measure that we should have had two speeches such as these because they are contrary to fact, and I trust we shall never again have such speeches delivered from the Front Bench. A great many people talk about the increase of wages which has gone on in different parts of the country. It is true there has been an increase of wages, largely in munition areas, but there are plenty of districts where there has been little or no increase, and where the income of the people is greatly lessened. Take the whole of the East Coast, which is liable to possible invasion. Yon have a great reduction of population. Edinburgh has benefited little or nothing by contracts being placed there. The University has been drained of its students, and an enormous number of poor people have had their incomes largely reduced in consequence, while house rents have been increased, and to impose a burden like this upon such a people is a perfect scandal. I have had a large number of letters from small confectioners all over the country, and there was a deputation of confectioners before the duty was imposed. They described their condition then. What will be their condition after the duty? A great many of those who have gone into this trade are widows who have been driven to take it up because they have lost the breadwinner of the family, and this imposition on them is perfectly unfair. The list of taxes composed in this Budget begins with Customs and Excise, and so on. A great many have said, "You should have increased Income Tax." I agree with that, but it is remarkable that there are two taxes which have never been increased since the War began: one is the Land Tax and the other is the Land Values Duty. At the same time you are increasing the Sugar Duty, which falls severely on poor people, and I sincerely trust that Labour Members will divide on this, so that we may enter a strong protest against this great increase."The ration of sugar is ½ lb. per week; the duty is l ½d. per 1b. Therefore the burden upon each consumer is l ½d. per fortnight." — [OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd April, 1918, col. 717.]
I want to reply to one argument which was addressed to the House by the Financial Secretary. By a series of arithmetical gymnastics, with which I did not wholly agree, he showed that there was no burden whatever upon anyone who paid Income Tax. He devoted the major part of his speech to a consideration of schemes which would relieve the Income Tax payer of burdens even under the present financial proposal. But the whole point of the criticism against this proposal is that it falls with such extreme hardship upon those below the Income Tax level, and whom it has been the deliberate policy of this House to preserve from further taxation. I was very surprised indeed that the hon. Gentleman said, in justification of this increased burden on the extremely poor, that the Government had given them a 9d. loaf, but it is the fact that the Government gave a 9d. loaf to the poor that ought to prevent them imposing this new taxation. The 9d. loaf was given at great expense, because the margin available in the case of the extremely poor was wholly insufficient to meet the increased cost of bread. Therefore, if you give the extremely poor this great concession with regard to the price of bread, you are really rendering that policy a nullity if you add to the price of articles of food almost equally necessary. Therefore I do not think the hon. Gentleman was entitled to say that this taxation was right and fair and just because the 9d. loaf had been given to the poor.
There is another consideration which has scarcely been noticed in connection with these proposals. When the hon. Gentleman speaks of it as amounting to 2s. 8d. in a year he forgets that a tax upon sugar means an increase in other foods which are also largely used by the poor. The articles of food which are at present rationed are wholly insufficient for anyone, and the official rations have to be supplemented by foods which are not rationed. In the case of the poor, articles of food in which sugar is a most important ingredient have to be bought and consumed, and therefore not only is the price of sugar being raised to the extremely poor, but also the price of non-rationed foods which are essential. It is because I feel that the hon. Gentleman has not given a justification for this tax, and has used arguments in defending it which should really condemn it, that I hope it may yet be rejected.
I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will reconsider his determination to keep on this extra tax. Of all the taxes which he imposes this time this has been more talked about as being unjust than any of the others, and while one can heartily congratulate him on the great fairness of his taxation I cannot do it with regard to the Sugar Tax. I shall certainly take advantage of any Motion to eliminate this additional tax whenever it comes before the House, and I am quite sure I am not by myself in this attitude. The Secretary to the Treasury said the object was to spread over the taxation in order to get the required yield. Surely people who have to buy commodities for their families are punished enough without having increased taxation put on necessary foods. If anything is required for the people of this country now, it is that they should be assured of a reasonable amount of food to carry them through this War, wherever the money comes from, and should not be called upon, especially those at the lower end of the scale who cannot afford it, to pay these increased prices. The argument in reference to the cheaper loaf does not appeal to me very much. The loaf is bad enough now, at the price it is, and I submit that the efforts of the Government ought to be directed to its improvement, and, if the subsidy is to be given to keep the price of bread down, there are a variety of other sources than sugar from which the Chancellor of the Exchequer could derive revenue by taxation in order to meet that subsidy. I am quite sure that if the right hon. Gentleman could bring out a scheme of taxing luxuries, as he has done already, but to a greater extent than he has done, I think that he would find that an increase of that source of income would be greatly supported. The increase might be two or three-fold the tax proposed, and I think that revenue obtained in that way would be greatly preferred to the proposed increase of the tax on sugar, which is an exceedingly important article of diet for the great masses of people.
Sugar enters into a great number of articles which are used in the household, and housewives and members of families are at the present time pinching themselves in order to save sugar against the time of the fruit season, when they propose to make jam superior to anything, in quality, that they can purchase in the shops. That is a very important feature of domestic economy, and ought not to be overlooked. Yet it is at this very time that you propose to impose this increased tax on this article of sugar, and people are rather disheartened, thinking that after all they are being called upon to pay higher prices for jam, sugar and syrups that are of such inestimable value to any household in helping to keep down the consumption of other articles. The bread now supplied has nothing like the intrinsic value of the bread which was supplied in pre-war times, and I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer, rather than increase the Sugar Tax, which he supports by reference to the cheap loaf, should look to other sources of taxation, and, if he does so, I believe that he will cause a great amount of satisfaction throughout the country. So far as I am concerned I shall oppose this tax in every division that takes place.The Committee must not run away with the impression that we are dealing only with the question of sugar. We ought to give the Chancellor of the Exchequer credit for so framing his Budget as to spread taxation over the largest number in the most equitable manner possible. Of all the taxes that are imposed, this on sugar is the one with which I have the least sympathy, because it is a tax on a necessity of life. At the same time it is inevitable that it should be imposed. It is not as big a tax in proportion to the value of the article affected as it was before the War, when the tax on sugar, before the War, was a moderate one, yet big as the tax is now, ad valorem it is not so big as it was in pre-war days. I think that ought to be borne in mind. It ought also to be remembered that in all these taxes the effort on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer must be to spread them over the people as equitably as he can. I suppose there is hardly a tax to which a thousand objections could not be taken by almost everybody. In reference to this tax, I could cite twenty or thirty almost fatal objections to it, but we really must not forget that we have to raise an enormous sum of money to meet the cost of the War, and so long as that is done equitably, all we can do is to accept a tax of this kind, whether we like it or not.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer and his colleague the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, in supporting the Sugar Tax, are under two misapprehensions. First, they argue that the workers are, at any rate, better able to bear this tax than they were at any former period. But I would point out that wages have not gone up in every instance, nor can it be said that in every case this tax is in no way oppressive. I think that is a misapprehension. There are great sections of the population whose spending capacity to-day is actually less than it was before the War. The bulk of my own Constituents have received only a miserable advance in wages, while there has been a 100 per cent. rise in the cost of living. They are paying 12s. in the £in rates, and they are reduced to the very margin of subsistence, so that every penny of increased cost most certainly affects large numbers. During the Debates which we had in pre-war times in regard to this character of taxation, it was argued that it was oppressive and unjust and, if that was the case then, it must be so now to a very much greater degree amongst a large number of the community. It docs seem to me an absolute farce to have coal boards sitting, and other Committees sitting, to effect artificial restrictions in the use and price of commodities, at the same time that you are increasing artificially the price of a prime necessity of life. Since the War the cost of sugar has gone up from 2d. a lb. to the amount, with taxation, of at least 7d. a lb. —an enormous and oppressive increase.
There is another fallacy in the mind of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He talked of spreading these taxes equitably over the masses of the people, and there seems to be the idea that there is a certain amount of justice in bringing in people who are not touched by those taxes which are yielding vast amounts of revenue, and which the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in reply to a question yesterday, evidently regards as direct taxation. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the Excess Profits Tax as a direct tax bringing in some £300,000,000 a year. These excess profits are being made by profiteers out of the pockets of the very people on whom you are going to impose this Sugar Tax. Those profits do not come miraculously from heaven or miraculously from below; they are taken out of the pockets of the people by profiteers, from whom the Government take 80 per cent The Chancellor of the Exchequer looks upon that as direct taxation, but in reality it is indirect taxation, because it falls most heavily upon those people whom the Chancellor of the Exchequer is going to bring in to contribute to the taxation on sugar, on the ground that they are not now sufficiently taxed, and are escaping the burden of the imposts levied under the Budget. That is not the case, and I shall oppose the tax when we go to a Division.I wish to appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to reconsider the whole question of this tax. The hon. Member for Liverpool (Sir W. Rutherford) suggests that the intention of the Chancellor is to spread the increased taxation as equitably as possible over all people. I think there is no justification for this particular increase of taxation that we are now discussing. In securing this extra money the right hon. Gentleman is obtaining it from those who cannot afford to pay it. I think that taxation ought to be raised from those who are able to pay it, without cutting into their means and scope of living. Small as this increase may be, it really means to a very large section of our people a reduction in their living; it will mean that they will have to go without some necessities of life. I think it is a pity, if an increase of money is required, that it cannot be found from other sources than sugar. There are many other sources that the Chancellor of the Exchequer can find from which to draw the money he requires. Let me suggest one, for instance: The Government has imposed a Super-tax on incomes over a certain amount; why not impose that tax after £1,000 instead of after £2,500 a year? There are other alternatives, if one cared to suggest them; there are many directions from which money could be procured other than this source from which the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes to draw it. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will seriously consider this matter between now and the discussion of the Finance Bill. I think, whatever my colleagues may do, that they agree with me as to the injustice of this particular tax, and we may be bound to divide against it when we come to the discussion of the Finance Bill. I would, however, appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to give this matter reconsideration, and I am certain that, if he promises to do that, there will be no necessity for a Division taking place at this moment.
I will not now repeat the arguments which I and my hon. Friend have used. I rise rather to make an appeal to the House as to whether or not they consider that there has been sufficient discussion at this stage, and will allow the matter now to go to a Division. Anyone who has introduced a Budget requiring taxation on the scale that this Budget requires it, is bound to try to make all those who ought to pay taxation bear their share in the cost of the War. [An HON. MEMBER: "Except the landowners!"] I think they are paying a good deal, and I think also it has been generally admitted that I have tried to frame the Budget from that point of view. The House ought to bear this in mind, that we have to carry on this War, and that we have got to get a great deal of money, not merely by taxation, but by borrowing. I am perfectly certain that, from the point of view of those who are in earnest in trying to see that this country is not beaten in this struggle, nothing could be worse than to give the impression that those who have money ought alone to meet the cost, and that those who are not so well off ought not to be made to contribute according to their ability to pay. It has been said that another 1d. on the Income Tax would meet the case. That is perfectly true. But I think that even those who use that argument must feel that there must be some stage at which the burden of the War, from the money point of view, is being borne by all classes according to their means. That is where the trouble comes in. The House must remember that in this Budget an allowance for the wife, in addition to that for children, has been granted in the case of Income Tax payers, while we have made no addition to the Income Tax on incomes up to £500 a year. These facts have been taken into account in dealing with the Budget as a whole, and I should not have felt justified in leaving incomes up to £500 untouched if I had not done something in the way of indirect taxation to balance the account. That is the motive which has influenced us. It is quite natural there should be a discussion, and even a Division, on this Resolution, but I hope that we shall now be allowed to get on with the business of the Committee.
I certainly desire to respond to the appeal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that we should not delay the Division. But there is a point I should like to recall to the right hon. Gentleman's mind. He has told us it is his desire — and I am quite sure his Budget has shown it — in the main to put the taxation on those who can best bear it. But this Sugar Tax presses most heavily on those who can ill afford to pay it. The Sugar Tax does not come under the character of a sumptuary tax; it is a tax on a necessity of life, especially for children, and those who have to provide for children will have to bear this additional burden, not only on the sugar ration itself, but on those articles containing sugar and necessary to supplement the sugar ration, which is hardly sufficient for children of tender years. I would also like to call attention to the fact that it is one of the canons of taxation that the extra amount the public have to pay should, as far as possible, reach the Treasury. But in this particular case, as shown by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, it is clear that a large part of the extra money paid by the public for articles in which sugar is
Division No. 32.] | AYES. | [4.50 p.m. |
Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte | Falle, Sir Bertram Godfray | Marriott, John A. R. |
Agnew, Sir George William | Fell, Sir Arthur | Mason, James F. (Windsor) |
Amery, Captain L. C. M. S. | Foster, Philip Staveley | Middlebrook, Sir William |
Archdale, Lieut. Edward M. | Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham | Morison, Hector (Hackney, S.) |
Baker, Maj. Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) | Gilmour, Lieut.-Col. John | Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness) |
Baldwin, Stanley | Goddard, Rt. Hon. Sir Daniel Ford | Morton, Sir Alpheus Cleophas |
Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir F. G. | Goulding, Sir Edward Alfred | Nicholson, William (Petersfield) |
Barnes, Rt. Hon. George N. | Greig, Colonel J. W. | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
Barrett, Capt. R. W. | Gretton John | Parker, Rt. Hon. Sir G. (Gravesend) |
Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick, Burghs) | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Parker, James (Halifax) |
Barton, sir William | Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord C. J. | Pennefather, De Fonblanque |
Beach, William F. H. | Harmood-Banner, Sir J. S. | Peto, Basil Edward |
Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Harris, Sir Henry P. (Paddington, S.) | Philipps, Maf-Gen. Sir Ivor (S'hampton) |
Bellairs, Commander C. W. | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Philipps, Captain Sir Owen (Chester) |
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. |
Boles, Lieut.-Colonel Dennis Fortescue | Hermon-Hodge, Sir R. T. | Randles, Sir John S. |
Brace, Rt. Hon. William | Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon | Rees, G. C. (Carnarvonshire, Arfan) |
Bridgeman, William Clive | Hinds, John | Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
Brookes, Warwick | Hodge, Rt. Hon. John | Robinson, Sidney |
Bull, Sir William James | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Rutherford, Sir W. (L'pool, W. Darby) |
Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry (Norwood) |
Butcher, John George | Hunter, Major Sir Charles Rodk. | Sanders, Col. Robert Arthur |
Carew, C R. S. | Illingworth, Rt. Hon. Albert H. | Shortt, Edward |
Carnegie, Lieut.-Colonel D. G. | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) | Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir F. E. (Liverpool) |
Cator, John | Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon) | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Spear, Sir John Ward |
Cochrane, Cecil Algernon | Jones, W. Kennedy (Hornsey) | Spicer, Rt Hon. Sir Albert |
Collins, Sir W. (Derby) | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Staveley-Hill. Lieut.-Col. Henry |
Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Stewart, Gershom |
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Lindsay, William Arthur | Stirling, Lieut.-Col. Archibald |
Cowan, Sir W. H. | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Stoker, R. B. |
Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, E.) | Lonsdale, James R. | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) |
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Lowe, Sir F. W. | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
Currie, George W. | M'Calmont, Brig.-Gen. Robert C. A. | Sutherland, John E. |
Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh | Sykes, Col. Sir Alan John (Knutsford) |
Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | M'Curdy, Charles Albert | Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.) |
Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire) | Macmaster, Donald | Thomas, Sir A. G. (Monmouth, S.) |
Dawes, James Arthur | McMicking, Major Gilbert | Tickler, T. G. |
Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Turton, Edmund Russborough |
Denniss, E. R. B | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Walker, Colonel William Hall |
Duncan, Sir J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Maden, Sir John Henry | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
Du Pre, Major W. Baring | Malcolm, Ian | Walton, Sir Joseph |
an ingredient can never reach the Treasury. There is not only the profit on the increased turnover, but the inevitable extra price which must be put on articles in which sugar is an ingredient from the very nature of the calculations of prices. A ½d. is the smallest addition that can be made to theprice of many articles, such as jam, biscuits, cocoa or condensed milk, into all of which sugar finds its way, and when the increased duty is something just under a ½d., the extra charge to the consumer must be the full ½d., while if the addition to the duty is represented by ¾d., the public is charged 1d.; therefore a considerable portion of the increase paid by the consumer is never received by the Treasury. The duty, therefore, presses particularly heavily upon those who have to use these articles which constitute an essential part of their food supply.
Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
The House divided: Ayes, 141; Noes, 56.
Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) | Williamson, Sir Archibald | Wood, Sir John (Stalybridge) |
Wardle, George J. | Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud | Younger, Sir George |
Waring, Major Walter | Wilson, Capt A. Stanley (Yorks, E.R.) | Yoxall, Sir James H. |
Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worc., N.) | |
Whiteley, Sir H. J. (Droitwich) | Winfrey, Sir Richard | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain F. Guest and Lord Edmund Talbot. |
Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
NOES.
| ||
Adamson, William | Haslam, Lewis | Smith, Capt. Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
Alden, Percy | Hogge, James Myles | Stanton, Charles Butt |
Arnold, Sydney | John, Edward Thomas | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) |
Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Jowett, Frederick William | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Kenyon, Barnet | Tillett, B. |
Chancellor, Henry George | King, Joseph | Toulmin, Sir George |
Clough, William | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Verney, Sir Harry |
Crooks, Rt. Hon. William | Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Watt, Henry A. |
Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Whitehouse, John Howard |
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Marshall, Arthur Harold | Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) |
Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Needham, Christopher T. | Wiles, Rt. Hon. Thomas |
Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B. | Outhwaite, R. L. | Wilkie, Alexander |
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Pringle, William M. R. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Rattan, Peter Wilson | Yeo, Sir Alfred William |
France, Gerald Ashburner | Richardson, Arthur (Rotherham) | |
Galbraith, Samuel | Rowlands, James | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. David Mason and Mr. Anderson. |
Gilbert, J. D. | Rowntree, Arnold | |
Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Smallwood, Edward |
Resolution reported,
Sugar (Excise)
4. "That in lieu of the duties of Excise now payable on sugar made in Great Britain or Ireland there shall, on and after the twenty-third day of April, nineteen hundred and eighteen, be charged the following duties:
£ | s. | d. | ||
Sugar of a polarisation exceeding 98 degrees | the cwt. | 1 | 3 | 4 |
Sugar of a polarisation not exceeding 76 degrees | the cwt. | 0 | 11 | 2 |
and intermediate duties varying between 23s. 4d. and 11s. 2d. on sugar of a polarisation not exceeding 98 and exceeding 76 degrees. | ||||
Molasses (including all sugar and extracts from sugar which cannot be tested by the polariscope): | ||||
if containing 70 per cent. or more of sweetening matter | the cwt. | 0 | 13 | 6 |
if containing less than 70 per cent. and more than 50 per cent. of sweetening matter | the cwt. | 0 | 9 | 8 |
if containing not more than 50 per cent. of sweetening matter | the cwt. | 0 | 4 | 9½ |
Glucose: | ||||
Solid | the cwt. | 0 | 16 | 3 |
Liquid | the cwt. | 0 | 11 | 8 |
Saccharine (including substances of a like nature or use) | the oz. | 0 | 8 | 3 |
and so in proportion for any less quantity.
And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."
Resolution agreed to.
Resolution reported,
Spirits (Customs)
5. "That in addition to the duties of Customs now payable on spirits imported into Great
Britain or Ireland there shall, on and after the twenty-third day of April, nineteen hundred and eighteen, be charged the following duties, that is to say:—
£ | s. | d. | |
For every gallon computed at proof of spirits of any description except perfumed spirits | 0 | 15 | 3 |
For every gallon of perfumed spirits | 1 | 4 | 3 |
For every gallon of liqueurs, cordials, mixtures, and other preparations entered in such a manner as to indicate that the strength is not to be tested | 1 | 0 | 6 |
and the duties of Customs on the articles here after mentioned, being articles in which spirit is contained or in the manufacture of which spirit is used, shall be proportionately increased, and shall be as follows:—
£ | s. | d. | |||
Chloral hydrate | … | the pound | 0 | 3 | 6 |
Chloroform | … | the pound | 0 | 8 | 8 |
Collodion | … | the gallon | 3 | 10 | 0 |
Ether, acetic | … | the pound | 0 | 5 | 2 |
Ether, butyric | … | the gallon | 2 | 3 | 9 |
Ether, sulphuric | … | the gallon | 3 | 13 | 2 |
Ethyl, iodide of | … | the gallon | 1 | 18 | 1 |
Ethyl bromide | … | the pound | 0 | 2 | 10 |
Ethyl chloride | … | the gallon | 2 | 3 | 9 |
And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
It is not my intention, as the House will readily believe, to oppose these taxes, and I rise only for the purpose of asking two questions in connection with the Chancellor of the Exchequer's proposals this year for extra taxation of liquor. As this is the first of the taxes, the present is, perhaps, the most convenient opportunity for referring to the matter. My right hon. Friend will remember that last year he took off a large proportion of the Licence Duties, and he did that in spite of protests from some quarters that it was unnecessary to afford this relief to the liquor trade. He did not, however, anticipate, as he has himself admitted, that they would make the profits they have made during the past twelve months, and he based his reduction on an anticipated decrease, or, at any rate, no increase, in the profits of the trade. The first question I wish to ask is this: Now that he has realised that the liquor trade, owing to the monopoly and restrictions, have not lost money but, on the contrary, have made money — very large profits indeed — why has not the right hon. Gentleman restored the Licence Duties in this Budget, instead of leaving them at the reduced figure at which they were placed last year? I want to remind the House that before the War the Licence Duties were between £4,000,000 and £5,000,000. In the last year before the War they were £4,300,000. In the following year — or two years later, perhaps— they were £3,400,000. Last year they were £2,400,000, and this year they are estimated at 1,100,000. You have, therefore, the Licence Duties reduced to about 20 per cent. of their former figure. I cannot understand why my right hon. Friend, who based his reduction solely on the ground of a reduction of profits, seeing that the profits have been, and are being made, has not restored the Licence Duties. I desire to point out to him and to the House —
The right hon. Gentleman cannot discuss the Licence Duties under this Resolution. There is nothing in it about Licence Duties. The discussion on these Resolutions must be confined to the subject matter of the particular Resolution before the House.
Very well, Mr. Speaker, I will not pursue that matter. Perhaps I can raise it on the Finance Bill, but I think I have said enough to make clear to my right hon. Friend the point. I do it really in no controversial spirit, but because a certain amount of money is being raised from the trade, and it is the question of the form in which that should be raised that I have risen to discuss rather than anything else. The second point I wish to raise is this: The taxes which the Chancellor of the Ex- chequer is putting on this year are taxes direct upon the liquor, and whereas the tax upon the Licence Duty — I think I am not out of order in saying that — is a tax upon a monopoly which cannot easily be passed on to the consumer, the tax on spirits or beer is one that is immediately passed on to the consumer, and has to be paid by the purchaser of the liquor. Now, it is quite true that that is affected in the present year by the fact that the Ministry of Food, I suppose, is stepping in and fixing the prices at which the liquor is to be sold. The question I want to put to the Chancellor of the Exchequer — and I do not know that the information will be available to-day — is what margin is he leaving, both in the case of spirits and in the case of beer, to the trade between the extra taxation and the prices which are fixed for sale to the public? What is the profit which he anticipates on the average will be made on the gallon of spirits and on the barrel of beer? I do not press the Chancellor of the Exchequer for an answer to that to-day. It may be necessary to consult the Minister of Food —
They do not know.
That is an assumption I should not like to make, but if my hon. Friend does so no one is so likely to know as he is. Yet the matter is one of exceeding importance. My impression is that a higher tax might have been charged relatively to the prices that have been fixed for the sale of liquor and still a very sufficient profit would have been left to the brewers and distillers, and the Chancellor might have got more money out of it without injuring any body. I shall be very much obliged if the right hon. Gentleman, before the Second Reading of the Finance Bill comes on, will let us know whether that point has been considered, and, if so, what is the margin he thinks it desirable to leave? I would point out that it is a necessary consideration for him to take into account for this reason: He is collecting in excess profits the greater part of what is left to the trade, and that is a very extravagant way of getting in revenue, as he knows well. It is far better for him to put on the maximum tax direct that he thinks it desirable to put on and to leave to the particular trade only that part of the profits which will enable them to make the pre-war standard of profit. The idea of taxation in any trade he is taxing is not that he should get revenue out of excess profits, but that he should so fix his taxes and his prices as to leave to the traders just the pre-war profit and no more That would hit his Excess Profits Tax, but it would be more profitable to the State and more convenient to the traders.
I am obliged to my right hon. Friend (Mr. L. Jones), first of all, for his readiness to leave to a later stage anything ho has to say on this subject. I may say — and it will doubtless surprise him — that I have listened to his speech this afternoon with pleasure, because I got rather a shock when introducing my Budget he praised my taxes on this commodity. I had a feeling — I hope he will not think I am accusing him of being narrow-minded — that if he was quite pleased I must have gone a little too far. I am glad he is a little more critical to-day. Of course, the point of view he puts as regards price was the chief factor in my mind and that of the Food Controller in coming to a decision as to the duty. The whole thing is in an absolutely artificial condition, and I may say to the House that I had a very strong temptation to get a very much larger revenue out of the trade even than the large amount I am asking for in this Budget — and it would be perfectly easily done. There is a demand, strange as it may seem to my right hon. Friend—
I know it well!