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Scotland

Volume 161: debated on Tuesday 13 March 1923

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Heritable Property Law

48.

asked the Prime Minister if he has received a copy of a resolution from the Glasgow Chamber of Commerce requesting the Government to pass legislation with a view to simplifying the transfer of heritable property in Scotland and amending the law of succession; and if he proposes to accede to this request?

I have been asked to reply. The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. My Noble Friend the Secretary for Scotland will be glad to proceed with this Meausre if opportunity arises.

Whaling (Shetland)

68.

asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health whether the Secretary for Scotland is aware that the prosecution of the whaling industry in Shetland has resulted in the closing down of the herring fishing stations throughout the west side of Shetland; that no stations will re-open so long as whaling is permitted; that there has been a consequent loss of capital to curers and of wages to fish workers; and if he will state what further evidence he requires to satisfy him that whaling is prejudicial to the herring industry?

My Noble Friend is aware that the closing down of curing stations was due in part to the decline of the herring fishing on the west side of Shetland, but the question at issue is whether such decline was caused by the prosecution of the whaling industry. As regards the reopening of stations, I would remind the hon. Member that a few stations were opened last year, and that part of the west side catch of 35,000 crams was landed at these stations. My Noble Friend is aware that the closing of stations has resulted in loss to curers and fishing workers. It is impossible to specify in anticipation what circumstances may occur in future to justify a decision that whaling is prejudicial to the herring fishery. The case hitherto put forward is substantially that in the period before the War the development of the whaling industry and the decline of the herring fishery were coincident in point of time. My Noble Friend considers that evidence or experience showing a causal relation between the fortunes of the two industries would be of consequence.

Are we to understand that there was no reason at all for passing the Act which was passed by the last Parliament?

What is the specific cause of complaint against the whales? Is it that the cutting up and curing of the whales pollutes and fouls the water, or is it that the hunting of the whales chases away the herring shoals?

Port Seton Harbour

69.

asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health whether he is aware that the absence of adequate harbour accommodation at Port Seton adversely affects the coal industry as well as the fishing industry; that coal has now to be taken to Leith at a cost of 2s. 1d. per ton, and if adequate facilities were provided at Port Seton the net realised price of coal would be increased by that amount, and both owners and miners would benefit accordingly; and whether he will recommend the adoption of the scheme of enlargement to the Development Commissioners?

The subjects of transport, working costs, and prices in the coal industry do not fall within the province of my Noble Friend's Department, and he is, therefore, unable to express any opinion on the matters referred to in the first two parts of the question. I am informed that any application which might be made by the Harbour Commissioners for assistance from the Development Fund could only be considered by the Development Commissioners in so far as its object was the development and improvement of the fisheries.

Is not the question of the development of trade in Scotland a matter for the hon. and gallant Gentleman's Department?

The question of the coal trade is obviously not specifically a question for the Secretary for Scotland; this is the spending of Government money for a particular object which does not some within the authority of the Secretary for Scotland.

Do I understand that in the application of the Development Fund to Scotland, no part of the money can be used for the development of harbour accommodation?

No part of the money can be used for the development of harbour accommodation for the coal trade, it can be used for the development of harbour accommodation for the fishing industry.

In so far as the development of the harbour would include, or provide, facilities for the herring fishing, the charge would be one properly falling on this Fund; in so far as it would assist the coal trade, which is, I understand, the contention of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Linlithgow, it would not properly be a charge upon this fund.

Land Court

72.

asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health whether, seeing that the Member recently appointed by him to the Scottish Land Court is proprietor of a landed estate in the North of Scotland and a director of a soft-goods store in Glasgow and that with one exception all the members of the Scottish Land Court are landlords, he will say whether they are permitted to adjudicate on the question of fair rents in the counties where their landed estates are situated; and whether he will now consider the appointment of a member more representative of the interests of small landholders and with a knowledge of the Highlands, the people, their language, and aspirations, so as to establish this tribunal in the confidence not only of landlords but also of small landholders?

I am informed that the member recently appointed is proprietor of a small landed estate in Caithness and that the two of her agricultural members were tenant farmers who have purchased their farms. The first-mentioned member was formerly a director of a firm of warehousemen in Glasgow, but retired from that office some months ago. In the allocation of cases care is taken to ensure that no member shall adjudicate on any application in which he is in any way interested. The importance of securing a member well qualified to discharge the duties was fully in view by my Noble Friend in making the last appointment, and he will have regard to the same considerations in making any future appointment.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the gentleman to whom reference is made in this question is a Highlander belonging to one of the principal clans in Sutherlandshire, that he has a full knowledge of the language and of the interests of the people, and that this appointment was warmly welcomed by the people of Caithness and Sutherland, and by none more than by the small landholders?

By which Cruiser detected.Number of Detections.Locus.Port to which Vessel taken.Results of Trials.
"Brenda"1Off Haddingtonshire Coast.LeithNot yet tried.
"Freya"2(a) Off Buchanness.PeterheadFined £80 or 60 days.
(b) Off Brora.Charged at seaNot yet tried.
"Minna"1Loch RoagStornowayFined £100 or 60 days.
"Vigilant"2Firth of Clyde, off Great Cumbrae.Charged at sea(a) Pined £10 or 26 days.
(b) Fined £50 or 40 days.

Is it not the fact that these vessels are quite inadequate to afford that protection it is their duty to do because of their insufficient speed?

The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Battersea can tell them about speed!

Deer Forest, Kintail (Arbitration)

73.

asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health whether he is aware of recent arbitration proceedings to determine a claim by a landlord from Kintail, Ross-shire, against the nation for compulsory grazing of sheep in his deer forest during the War, and consequent frightening of deer on his lands; whether the arbiter, who in the case is a sheriff-principal, is to receive, or has received, any extra remuneration out of national funds; whether he is aware that two King's counsel, two advocates,

Illegal Trawling

71.

asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health which cruisers were concerned in the detection of illegal fishing in February last, and in which waters; into which ports were the captured vessels taken; whether prosecutions were instituted; and, if so, what penalties were imposed?

As the reply to my hon. and gallant Friend's question can most conveniently be given in the form of a tabulated statement, I propose, with his permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the statement:

and half-a-dozen other lawyers, two duke's commissioners, and numerous other partially employed factors and gamekeepers were engaged for seven days to ascertain what degree of fright and injury was occasioned to this landlord's deer by the sheep grazing on his forest; why the nation's interest was not represented at this inquiry by Crown counsel or agents, and why this claim was not submitted to the Defence of the Realm Losses Commission; and what is to be the total cost to the British taxpayer in connection with this alleged injury to deer and the consequent arbitration proceedings?

With regard to the first part of the question, I am aware of the proceedings referred to which arose out of claims for compensation for alleged diminution of letting or selling value of the deer forest which was compulsorily stocked with sheep. In answer to the second part, the arbiter did not act in his official capacity as a sheriff-principal, and his remuneration as arbiter will form part of the arbitration expenses. With reference to the third part, the number of persons engaged on behalf of the Board of Agriculture for Scotland was kept as small as the importance of the case would permit. My Noble Friend has no control over the numbers engaged on behalf of the claimants. With reference to the fourth part, the national interest was represented by the counsel acting for the Board of Agriculture. In answer to part five, reference to the Defence of the Realm Losses Commission would not have been competent, as in law such claims, failing agreement, must be settled by arbitration before a single arbiter. I am unable at present to answer the last part of the question, as the arbiter has not yet issued his award.

Will the Under-Secretary for Scotland make inquiries and so put himself in possession of information that will enable him to answer the other part of the question; he says he is unable to answer it?

I am unable to answer it because the facts are not as yet published. I do not know the answer because the answer is not known to anybody.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman not aware that a great many ex-service men desire to be settled in that particular part of Ross-shire, and now that the arbitration is over will he see to it that a settlement is speedily effected?

Development Fund

70.

asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health the amount of money now standing to the credit of the Development Commissioners?

Excluding the Corn Repeal moneys and a gift from the Red Cross for specific purposes, the balance on the Development Fund on the 10th instant was £400,375, including cash and investments at cost price. There are, however, considerable commitments to be set against this sum; and, as the hon. and gallant Member will observe from the Estimate for the Vote on Account, it has been found necessary to ask Parliament to vote a further sum of £250,000 in 1923–24.

Rent Arrears, Glasgow

74.

asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health if he is aware that a large number of tenants are being brought before the Glasgow Sheriff Court for arrears of rent and that they cannot afford to get the legal assistance necessary to defend them; and will he take such steps as will allow a tenant summoned to be defended by a person other than a solicitor?

I am aware that the number of actions for non-payment of rent is large; as regards the ability of the tenants in question to pay for legal assistance I have no information. Parties may appear in the Small Debt. Court, in which actions relating to sums not exceeding £20 are usually raised, by themselves, by any member of their family, or by any person whom the Sheriff permits.

I would also remind the hon. Member that the law already makes provision for legal assistance to poor persons. In these circumstances it seems unnecessary to take further steps in the direction suggested in the last part of the question.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that these persons are mostly summoned for being unable to pay rent owing to unemployment and if they cannot pay rent they cannot pay legal expenses? Is he further aware that the lawyers are so busy on other work that it is almost impossible for them to serve in the Sheriff Court?

There is specific provision made in the Sheriff Court Law of Scotland for the representation of poor persons. If the hon. Member knows of any cases where they cannot get such assistance if he will bring them to my notice I will have the matter looked into.

Owing to the unsatisfactory answer which I have received I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

Historical Buildings

75.

asked the Under-Secretary for the Scottish Board of Health what are the historical buildings in Scotland whose maintenance is under the supervision of the Government; what is the total cost of maintenance; and what are the numbers employed in the same?

I am sending the hon. Member a list of the historic buildings and ancient monuments in Scotland which are maintained by my Department. The annual cost of maintenance is £39,000, and the average number of men employed is 200.

Land Settlement

77.

asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health if he will state the number of applications for small holdings at present on the waiting list of the Board of Agriculture for Scotland; and what proportion of the said applications have been on the Board's waiting list for over two years?

The number of outstanding applications on the lists of the Board of Agriculture for Scotland is 10,040, including 3,769 from ex-service men; of the total applications approximately 8,150, including 2,700 from ex-service men, have been on the lists for two years or more. These numbers, however, include a considerable proportion of cases in which the applicants may prove unsuitable owing to inexperience, lack of capital or other reasons.

Crown Fishing Rights

78.

asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health if he is aware that many Crown fishing rights in the south-west of Scotland are, let privately at a nominal rent to the proprietors of the adjacent land; and whether, with a view to increasing revenue from these fishing rights and giving the public an opportunity of acquiring same, steps will be taken in future to put them up for open competition?

I have been asked to reply. The Crown's fishing rights in Scotland are in charge of the Commissioner of Woods. Crown salmon fishings in the sea are offered for letting by public tender for a term of years. As regards Crown salmon fishings in rivers, in several cases leases have been granted to angling associations or to local authorities for the benefit of residents in the district, and generally speaking it is only when the fishings are of trifling value or there are special considerations affecting them that they are offered to the ex adverso proprietors direct. I shall be glad to have inquiry made concerning any particular case which the hon. Member has in mind.

Agricultural Workers (Wages)

79.

asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health if he can state the number of conciliation committees which have been constituted in Scotland under the provisions of Section 4 (1) of the Agriculture Acts (Repeal) Act, 1921, and the steps, if any, taken by them to adjust the rate of wages for agricultural workers in their districts?

No conciliation committees have been constituted in Scotland under the provisions of Section 4 (1) of the Act of 1921. Shortly after the passing of that Act the Board of Agriculture offered their assistance to the National Farmers' Union of Scotland and to the Scottish Farm Servants' Union in connection with the formation of local committees. Both unions, however, replied that they did not desire any action to be taken by the Board.

Potatoes (Wart Disease)

80.

further asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health if he can state the new arrangements arrived at for the prevention of the spread of wart disease among potatoes, and the conditions under which potatoes may be moved from one district to another?

The Board of Agriculture do not at present propose to make new regulations for the control of wart disease within Scotland. As regards the movement of potatoes from Scotland to England, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries informed the hon. and gallant Member for Galloway on Tuesday last that he proposed to issue an Order at an early date.

I am afraid that I cannot say, as the matter lies rather with the Minister of Agriculture.

National Health Insurance

53.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether any investigation has been made into the possibility of so developing and extending the existing system of insurance as to make adequate provision thereunder for all cases of invalidity and disability arising before the age of 70, as recommended by the Majority Report of the Departmental Committee on Old Age Pensions; and, if not, whether he will cause such an inquiry to be made?

No such investigation has vet been made and inasmuch as a scheme of this kind would almost inevitably involve a considerable measure of State assistance I am afraid that it is hardly practicable while our present financial difficulties continue.

Could the Chancellor of the Exchequer provide the House with the actuarial data necessary to work out such a contributory scheme as is suggested?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a practical scheme does exist—that associated with the name of Mr. Broad, late Member for Clay Cross—and will he examine that scheme in order that it may be further investigated?

Dyestuffs Act

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that German dyes imported into the Irish Free State are re-exported into this country; and whether he will take steps to prevent this evasion of the Dyestuffs Act?

I am not aware that German dyestuffs subject to the restrictions laid down by the Dyestuffs Act are being improperly introduced into this country from the Irish Free State. If my hon. and gallant Friend will furnish me with particulars of any cases which he has in mind, I will have inquiry made.

Development Fund (Grants And Loans)

55.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the total amount of grants and loans made out of the Development Fund since the establishment of the Development Commission in 1969; and how much of this sum has been allocated to purposes from which agricultural labourers receive any direct benefit?

The total amount of grants and loans made out of the Development Fund between the establishment of the Development Commission in 1909 and the 9th instant is as follows:

£s.d.
Grants2,689,042157
Loans657,78263

There is nothing in the Development and Roads Improvement Fund Acts, 1909 and 1910, prescribing advances for the direct benefit of agricultural labourers, though they, in common with the rest of the agricultural community, have benefited by the improvements in agricultural methods arising from the operation of the Act. Under the Corn Production Acts (Repeal) Act, 1921, a sum of £850,000 was added to the Development Fund for the purpose of providing a special fund for promoting agricultural development, including the establishment of scholarships and maintenance grants for the sons and daughters of agricultural workmen and others, and a sum of £100,000 has been set aside from this source to meet the last-mentioned purpose over a period of five years.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what are the advantages derived by the agricultural labourers who are receiving 21s. a week as wages?