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Commons Chamber

Volume 182: debated on Monday 6 April 1925

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House Of Commons

Monday, 6th April, 1925.

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

Bolton Corporation Bill,

As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

London Electricity Supply (No. 2) Bill [ Lords],

As amended, to be considered To-morrow.

Oral Answers To Questions

India

Coal Mines

1.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India how many coal mines were working in India in the year 1923; in how many had ventilating fans been installed; and the number of mines where the working shift is 12 hours or more?

The number of coal mines under the Indian Mines Act in 1923 was 942, and the number with mechanical ventilators in use was 55; the information asked for in the last part of the question is not available but the Government of India will be asked whether they can supply it.

Railways (Capital Debt)

2.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India what is the capital debt of the railways of India at the present time?

The amount of the capital at charge on the Indian State Railways (including those worked by companies) on the 31st March, 1925, is esti- mated at 654½ crones of rupees, or approximately (at present rates of exchange) £490,000,000.

Is it not the case that the progress of the State Railways has been very slow compared with that of 50 years ago?

I think that that does not arise out of the original question. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put the question on the Paper?

Army Officers (Pay)

3.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that the recent augmentation of pay of British officers in India, both of the British Army and of the Indian Army, applies to all officers except those of the Royal Army Medical Corps, the Indian Medical Service, Army Dental Corps, and the Royal Army Veterinary Corps; that this is certain to prejudice future recruitments for these essential services in India; and will he state the reason for this decision?

Officers of the Indian Medical Service in military employ have been granted the same pay concession as those in civil employ as a result of the recommendations of the Commission on the Superior Civil Services in India, and the same passage concessions as have recently been granted to officers of the Indian Army. The case of the other services mentioned has been reserved for further consideration, as there is a possibility of changes affecting them in the near future.

Trade Unions

4.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether any legislation is contemplated by the Gov- ernment of India for legalising trades unions and to enable such bodies to be protected from civil actions when performing trade union functions?

A Bill on the lines indicated has been introduced in the Indian Legislative Assembly. A copy of the Bill as introduced is being sent to the hon. Member.

Impressed Labour

5.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the system of impressed labour for Government work, either civil or military, still continues; if so, will he state the number so impressed for the five years ending 31st December, 1924; and will he supply for the use of the House a copy of the rules and ordinances underlying that system?

Copies of certain enactments of the Indian Legislatures providing for the requisitioning of labour for emergencies such as the repair of irrigation works, etc., have been placed in the Library. The system of requisitioning services to meet the necessities of officers on tour still exists, subject to careful regulation under executive, orders in the various Provinces. The statistics asked for in the question are not available. On 24th January, 1922, a Resolution was adopted by the Indian Legislative Assembly and accepted by the Government of India in favour of the examination of the question of the abolition of impressed labour, conveyance and provisions, wherever it obtains in India, either under local or Imperial Statute or under local custom. My Noble Friend has not yet been informed of the result of the Government of India's examination of the subject.

Bengal Ordinance

7 and 8.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India (1) if he can hold out any hope of an early suspension of the operation of the Bengal Ordinance;

(2) what action the Government proposes to take in relation to the recent public statement of the Swarajist leader, Mr. C. R. Das, denouncing methods of violence?

With the hon. Member's permission I will answer these questions together. My Noble Friend has already welcomed Mr. Das's dissociation of himself and his party from a policy of violence. But he has so far seen only Press reports of Mr. Das's utterances. If, as he hopes, Mr. Das now makes constructive proposals which obtain the support of the Government of Bengal and the Government of India, His Majesty's Government, so far as they are concerned, will give them their sympathetic consideration.

May I ask the Noble Lord whether he has seen in the Press to-day a suggestion by Mr. Das that he and Mr. Gandhi should come over here in order to consult with the India Office at the same time as the Viceroy is being consulted, and whether he will give that favourable consideration?

This is a situation where, as a result of the events here and in India, it is obvious that a better understanding is hoped for. I am sure that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will understand that no good will be done by any hasty or ill-considered reply by me in this House. If the right hon. and gallant Gentleman wants information I must ask him to give notice.

Does the Noble Lord realise that this change of atmosphere can best be used by a joint meeting such as is now suggested?

Arising out of the last answer, may we take it that this change of policy will be met on our part by the greatest possible political liberty being given in the circumstances?

I think that my answer very clearly deals with that. The hon. and gallant Gentleman must realise that there are situations in which, to say the least of it, it would be most inconvenient that answers should be given to this House without notice.

Waziristan (British Casualties)

6.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the fact that Waziristan is not regarded as a field-service area, he can give the casualties which have taken place among the British troops now forming the garrison in that country during the present peace period, and compare them with the casualties suffered by the British troops in garrison when Waziristan was regarded as a field-service area?

The Secretary of State for War has asked me to reply. The information is not immediately available, but it will be obtained and sent to my hon. Friend as soon as possible.

Nigeria

Cotton (Northern Provinces)

9.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that cotton of a quality equal to a fully-middling American is being grown in Northern Nigeria; that the climatic conditions there are in every way satisfactory for the growing of cotton and that ample land is available; that the development of cotton growing in Nigeria during the, last 10 years has been extremely slow; and that the crop last year available for export was only 15,000 bales; and, in view of these facts and of the urgent necessity of promoting the growth of cotton within the Empire, whether he will instruct the Governor of Nigeria to appoint a committee to consider and report upon the best steps to take to develop more rapidly the growing of cotton in Northern Nigeria.?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, as is also the answer to the second part as regards much of the Northern Provinces. During the last 10 years the short native variety of cotton has been almost entirely replaced for export by the much more valuable longer staple variety, of which in 1915–16 121 bales were exported, 1919–20, 3,568 bales, in 1923–24, 15,035 bales. I am satisfied that the Nigerian Agricultural Department, which is working in close co-operation with the British Cotton Growing Association and the Empire Cotton Growing Corporation, is working on right lines, and that as further railways and increased transport, facilities become available the export of cotton of good quality will go on increasing. Accordingly, I see no sufficient reason to ask the Governor to appoint a local committee on this question.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a number of very able business men on the Legislative Council of Nigeria, who would give advice on the subject of increasing the growth of cotton in Northern Nigeria and improving the present position?

We rely in this very expert matter very largely on specially-trained agricultural officers, and on the co-operation of the two great associations originating in Lancashire and dealing with cotton. We have their advice and assistance, and I think it is quite sufficient and better than a purely local committee of merchants dealing with other goods.

Will there be no change in the principle, hitherto adopted in Nigeria, of having native cultivation rather than plantation cultivation?

That does not arise out of the original question. There is no suggestion, except that made by Lord Leverhulme, for altering the present policy of the Government of Nigeria, and I dealt with that in my speech a few days ago.

Tin

10.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the Niger Company acts as forwarding and handling agents for a large number of companies operating on the tin fields; that the company, although receiving half the royalties on minerals, make applications through their representatives from time to time for mineral areas, particularly tin, and obtain grants in direct opposition to the tin companies, for whom they act as agents; and that some of those companies are small concerns and have practically no other choice than to appoint the Niger Company as their agents; and whether he, will consider taking steps to protect the rights and interests of these smaller companies?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, but I see no reason for interference by Government with such legitimate business of the Niger Company.

Empire-Grown Sugar

11.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the amount of sugar produced in the Dominions for the last completed year; and the amount of same imported into this country during that period?

The total amount of sugar produced in the British self-governing Dominions and in the Colonies during the year 1923, which is the last year for which complete figures are available, is approximately 968,000 tons. The quantity of sugar of Empire origin imported during the year ended 31st December, 1923, into the United Kingdom (from the 1st April of that year, Great Britain and Northern Ireland) was 690,664 cwts. refined, and 7,534,560 cwts. unrefined.

It takes a long time to collect the agricultural statistics from the British possessions, particularly from places like Uganda and similar Colonies, and we shall probably not get the full 1924 figures for another two months.

No; I said "the self-governing Dominions and Colonies and Protectorates."

Arabia

12.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any subsidies are at present being paid to rulers in Arabia; if so, to whom and on what terms?

No subsidies are being paid from Imperial funds to rulers in Arabia.

It is not a subsidy. As I explained in an answer last week, it was put in in case other money becomes payable in connection with the settlement between two conflicting claims in the Southern part of the Red Sea.

No, that is not the case. I think I may say that it is very improbable that the amount will be expended.

Crown Colonies (Public Works Audits)

13.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the heavy expenditure now involved in the carrying out of extensive capital works departmentally by direct labour in our Crown Colonies, he will consider the advisability of supplementing or extending the at present restricted duties of the local officers acting under the Director of Colonial Audit in London by the introduction of specially trained technical officers, and by so doing relieve heads of executive Departments, already fully occupied with their ordinary recurrent duties, of the great responsibility of checking the technical details of the accounts for such works?

I have no information which tends to indicate that the heads of the technical Departments concerned in the Colonies are handicapped in the performance of their ordinary duties by reason of their responsibilities in connection with the expenditure incurred on capital works carried out departmentally.

Kenya

Education Expenditure

16.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that in February of this year the Kenya Government, subject to his sanction, proposed to raise a loan of £125,000 for purposes of education of Europeans, Indians, Arabs, and Africans; and that this proposal was reviewed by a committee consisting of three officials and all the elected European members of council, which suggested that the sum of £80,000 should be spent on one European school; and whether he proposes to sanction this allocation or to insist upon a more equal division of the total sum over the four races in question?

The provision referred to represents capital expenditure mainly on buildings, and I am confident that the expenditure of £80,000 on a central school for European boys at Nairobi is both essential and urgent. Not only in Kenya, but elsewhere in Africa, it is desirable that better facilities should be provided for European children who have in most cases no prospect of education elsewhere. The proposed loan also provides for capital expenditure on the erection of a new technical school for Indians, the extension and improvement of the present Indian school at Nairobi, improvements in the Arab schools on the coast, and £25,000 for the erection of a new industrial training depot for African artisans. Further, a training school for African visiting teachers is already in course of erection, and I welcome the increasing provision that is being made in Kenya for the better education of all races in the colony.

Does the hon. Gentleman suggest that £80,000 out of £125,000 is the proper proportion to spend on a school for Europeans, in view of the fact that there is already a school for Europeans in Nairobi; and before he sanctions this enormous allocation out of the £125,000 for the whites in Kenya, will he inquire how many children in Kenya are likely to take advantage of the £80,000 building?

I am satisfied, from what I saw, that the most urgent requirement in East Africa, in the interest of the native population, is to prevent a number of uneducated Europeans growing up in their midst, and the most unsatisfactory buildings in Nairobi are the present European schools. This should be done at once and, as I pointed out in the answer, in addition to this £125,000 allocation, other sums are already being spent on the education services for the other purposes. I hope this will be sanctioned at the earliest possible moment.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the Minister for Education in Kenya himself protested against the money being spent in this way?

I had a letter recently from the head of the Department of Education saying that this was a most important matter. At present there is no science laboratory and no provision for scientific education for the children of white officials. I hope these new schools will be built to educate the children of European artisans, not only in Kenya, but from the neighbouring territories as well. The well-to-do settlers have their own private schools, but there is inadequate provision for the less well-to-do Europeans in East Africa.

Sir Robert Coryndon (Memorial)

21.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can give the House any information as to a proposed memorial in Kenya to the late Governor, Sir Robert Coryndon?

I have no official information on the subject, and such references to it as I have seen in the local Press are less definite than the message published here in the "Times" of the 3rd April.

Jaffa (Arrests)

17.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many arrests have taken place in Jaffa during the visit of Lord Balfour, and for what causes?

Sixteen persons were arrested on the day of Lord Balfour's arrival in Jaffa on a magistrate's warrant for action likely to cause an immediate breach of the peace. They were all members of a small Communist group. No breach of the peace actually occurred.

Cannot His Majesty's Government devise a plan for introducing British civilisation into other people's countries without the use of prison cells and air bombs?

These 16 Communists issued inflammatory attacks on Lord Balfour of the most insulting nature and distributed them about the town. I think the action taken by the Palestine Government was absolutely essential; otherwise there would have been a serious breach of the peace.

Would not 16 young Englishmen do the same thing if an Arab chief came here to talk to you and tell you how you ought to live?

Empire Settlement

20.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is able to give the number of those migrating to Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, respectively, during the first three months of the current year?

The particulars for the first quarter of 1925 are not yet available, but I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of the "Board of Trade Journal" for 26th March, in which these particulars for each quarter of last year are given.

Trade And Commerce

British Trade Representatives (America)

22.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department if it is the intention of his Department to open an office in New York; and, if so, when?

It is intended to establish at New York within the next three months a branch of the Commercial Secretariat of the Embassy at Washington. The junior of the two Commercial Diplomatic Officers at Washington will be detached to assume charge of the new office, which will work in conjunction with His Majesty's Consulate-General at New York.

I cannot state offhand. But I bear in mind the necessity of keeping it as low as possible.

23.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he will consider the advisability of opening an office and maintaining a Commercial Secretary at San Francisco, with a view to fostering British trade on the Pacific coast of the United States of America?

I am afraid that expense will not at the moment admit of the appointment of a Commercial Secretary at San Francisco. The Commercial Counsellor at Washington has, however, recently paid a visit to the Pacific coast of the United States in order to investigate conditions and prospects of British trade, and he has furnished a very valuable report which has been communicated to the interests concerned. His Majesty's Consul-General at San Francisco and the other Consular officers on the Pacific coast have also been invited to pay special attention to commercial questions.

Lace And Embroidery

41.

asked the President of the Board of Trade the total value of lace and embroidery exported from this country for the year 1914 and also for the last completed year; and will he give the number of persons employed in this industry for the year 1914 and the last year?

The answer contains a number of figures, and my hon. and gallant Friend will perhaps agree to its being circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the reply:

The particulars asked for with regard to cotton and silk lace are as follows:

1914.1924.
££
Cotton lace and plain net and articles thereof (except embroidery)3,486,7232,498,312
Silk lace and mixed (silk and other materials) lace and articles thereof (except embroidery)84,01176,234

Exports of embroidery and needlework (except linen embroidery) in 1924 were valued at £110,634. A comparable figure for 1914 is not available. With regard to the latter part of the question, the

estimated number of insured persons in the lace industry in Great Britain and Northern Ireland was 20,330 in July last year, and 20·6 per cent. of this number were unemployed at the end of the year. Comparable figures for 1914 are not available.

Irish Free State (British Machinery)

52.

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the movement in the Irish Free State in favour of putting a duty on imported British machinery and goods; and whether he will take steps to protect British manufactures and the thousands of workers in these industries if these duties are imposed?

As regards the first part of the question, I have no information, and, as regards the second, I am afraid that I cannot answer a hypothetical question.

British Empire Exhibition

Disabled Ex-Service Men

25.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he has now secured the consent of the executive and general manager of the British Empire Exhibition to the admittance of disabled ex-service men free of charge on one day in the week?

I am informed by the British Empire Exhibition authorities that they will distribute free passes for the exhibition to the British Red Cross Society for the use of disabled men who are in hospital.

Catering

26.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether, in the allocation of the new contracts for catering at the British Empire Exhibition; the management has laid down any conditions as to quality and prices of food?

27.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department what arrangements, if any, have been made with the various caterers at the British Empire Exhibition with regard to the utilisation of the products of the British Empire in their respective establishments?

I am informed by the authorities of the British Empire Exhibition that it is stipulated in all the catering contracts that the refreshments shall be sound and wholesome, and that Empire materials only shall be used, wherever such a course be reasonably possible.

Has any stipulation been made with regard to reasonable prices?

Competition will produce reasonable prices. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] A number of competing catering firms are doing the business this year, and the public will, no doubt, go to those firms which give the best value and the best food.

Has the hon. Gentleman considered that they might as well come together to put up prices as come together to pull down prices.

Agriculture

Small Holdings (Additional)

28.

asked the Minister of Agriculture if he has in preparation means to open the way to land ownership for the 17,000 unsatisfied applicants for small holdings, including 3,243 ex-service men requiring 46,000 acres; and, if so, when these measures will come into operation?

The question of the provision of additional small holdings is being carefully considered, and I hope to be in a position to submit to the House next year proposals for a new scheme to be brought into operation after the present scheme has been completed in 12 months' time.

When the right hon. Gentleman is going into this question, will he also consider the advisability of purchasing hack the small holdings from those ex-service men who have not been able to make a success of them, if they are willing to sell?

Wages, Lincolnshire

29.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that the fixing of the wages of the farm workers in Lincolnshire has been followed by levying new charges by farmers on farm workers, such as for straw and coal carting; and whether anything can be done to stop this undermining of the intentions of the wages board and Parliament?

I have had no official information of such cases. It is, of course, illegal for an employer to reckon in part payment of minimum wages fixed under the Agricultural Wages (Regulation) Act the value of any benefits or advantages other than those permitted by the order of the local agricultural wages committee. Neither of the wages committees for Lincolnshire has included the benefits mentioned in the question as allowable for this purpose, and, consequently, any such arrangements would be outside the payment of wages at the minimum rates.

Will the right hon. Gentleman ask for a reconsideration of rates by county committees in cases where a change of action by farmers has made a serious difference to the men?

I will certainly consider the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman. Of course, he must not forget that it is always within the competence of the committees themselves to reconsider their own business.

Fish

30.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the prices which are being charged for fish, he will consider the advisability of taking over the control of the fish markets?

As at present advised, I am not prepared to adopt the suggestion made by the hon. Member.

Will the right hon. Gentleman in the consumers' interest undertake to send somebody to Grimsby fish market to see what happens there with regard to the price of fish?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the week before last 4,400 stone of first-class edible fish were sent from Fleetwood to the manure heap?

No, I am afraid I have had no notice of that matter. If the hon. Member wishes to ask a question upon it he should put it down.

31.

also asked the Minister of Agriculture what, steps are being taken to encourage the scientific preservation of fish?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to a similar question put to me by my hon. Friend the Member for Acton (Sir H. Brittain) on the 23rd March last, a copy of which I am sending to him.

House Of Commons (Mr Watts's Painting "King Alfred"

32.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether, on account of its irritating effect on Members, he will remove from Committee Room No. 10 the Painting of Alfred inciting the Saxons to prevent the landing of the Danes?

I ant not aware that the picture in question has such an effect on Members as to justify its removal.

Will the hon. Gentleman go into the Committee Room for five minutes, contemplate the legs of King Alfred, and having done so, try to concentrate on the work going on in the Committee Room; and if he comes to the same conclusion as I have reached, will he, at least, have the picture removed to the other end of the room? Failing that, will the hon. Gentleman say whether he himself would like to go down to posterity depicted with legs on him like those of King Alfred in the picture?

I have looked at the picture this morning. I do not know if the hon. Member is aware that it is a very fine example of the early work of Watts, one of our most celebrated artists.

In view of this monarch's connection with cooking, will the hon. Gentleman have the picture put up in the Tea Room?

Will the hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of getting a picture painted for the other end of the room showing the Members for Glasgow resisting the invasion of the Irish into Scotland?

Will the hon. Gentleman consider the putting of another picture on the side wall of the room, showing the hon. Gentleman the Member for Argyllshire (Mr. Macquisten) being rejected by Glasgow at an Election?

Cattle (Humane Killer)

37.

asked the Minister of Health whether he has considered the matter of humane slaughtering for cattle whether any special implement has been tested and approved: and is it the intention to legislate in favour of uniformity of method all over the country?

There is a model byelaw for the compulsory use of a mechanical instrument. Any local authority can adopt this bye-law, and over 140 have already done so. In the opinion of my right hon. Friend, it is not advisable to specify any particular instrument or, at the present time, to introduce legislation.

Is the number 140, to which the hon. Gentleman has referred, an increase in the last year or not?

Housing

Steel Houses

38.

asked the Minister of Health whether he has considered the possibility of erecting specimen steel houses at the British Empire Exhibition; and, if so, whether all types will be represented?

The British Empire Exhibition authorities are arranging for a display of various new methods of house construction, and it is understood that several methods in which steel construction is employed will be represented.

Chepstow

33.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether the Bulwark and Hardwicke houses at Chepstow have reverted to the Government; if so, whether he is aware that the bulk of the tenants have for some time been suffering from unemployment, with the result that the rents and rates are considerably in arrears; and whether special consideration will be given to the position of these people with respect to their arrears, and action taken to reduce the rents now charged?

The management of these estates has only recently been transferred from the Shipping Liquidation Department to the charge of the Office of Works. The matters to which the hon. Member refers are receiving consideration, but it may be a little time before a decision can be arrived at.

If the rents that have been collected for some considerable time have been paid over to the Shipping Liquidation Department, then, presumably, the Government receive the amount of money or rent that is paid?

The transfer took place only five days ago, and the Office of Works have only had to deal with the matter during the last five days. We are looking into it very carefully, and we will let the hon. Member know.

Old Age Pensions

39.

asked the Minister of Health the number of persons between 65 years of age and 70; and the estimated proportion of the same that would be able to obtain an old age pension under the existing income limit restrictions?

The number of persons in England and Wales between 65 and 70 years of age is estimated to be 1,029,056. My right hon. Friend is not aware of any basis upon which a trustworthy estimate such as is suggested in the second part of the question could be framed.

Ex-Ranker Officers (Pensions)

45.

asked the Prime Minister when the day promised for the discussion of the ex-ranker officers' pensions will be given; and will the decision be left to a free vote of the House?

I propose that the discussion promised shall take place on Monday, 18th May. For that purpose, the Government intend to put down a Motion in the following terms:

"That the Report of the Barnes Committee on the claims of professional ex-ranker officers (Cmd. 212) be adopted by this House."
As I have already stated, this is not a matter which the Government would be justified in leaving to a free vote of the House.

Empire Wireless

46.

asked the Prime Minister if he is aware of the growing diversity of policy and practice as between this country and the Dominions in the matter of Empire wireless facilities; and whether, with a view to unity in this matter, he will adopt the suggestion of the Empire Press Union and invite the Governments of the Dominions to confer with our own Government, so as to bring an end to the present confusion and give the Empire a system at least as effective as those of foreign countries?

No, Sir. My information does not bear out the suggestions made by my hon. Friend. The arrangements in connection with the institution of the Imperial Wireless Service are proceeding satisfactorily, and there is general accord between His Majesty's Government and the self-governing Dominions in regard to the subject.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that representatives of all the Dominions, especially as regards the Press, do not at all take that view, and that they believe that the whole thing is moving into confusion?

May I suggest to my hon. Friend that not everything that appears in the Press on this subject is quite accurate, and that it might be useful to him to put himself in communication with my hon. Friend the Postmaster-General, who, I am sure, would be glad to-talk with him on the subject?

Broadcasting

48.

asked the Prime Minister in which way it, in intended to review the whole position of broadcasting next winter; and whether a select or other committee will be appointed to look into the question?

The whole question of broadcasting will have to be examined in anticipation of the expiry of the existing agreement with the British Broadcasting Company on the 31st December, 1926, but I am not at present in a position to make any further statement.

Does that mean that we must wait until the following winter, which I understand was the intention of the right hon. Gentleman, before the question of broadcasting Parliament will be inquired into?

No. The present agreement comes to an end 12 months from the end of this year, but I think we shall have to begin to consider it in the course of this winter, and that is what I meant in the reply I gave the other day.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman consider the setting up of a small Committee of both Houses to look into the question of broadcasting the proceedings of Parliament?

That is obviously one of the things that will have to be considered when the whole question is being discussed.

Naval And Military Pensions And Grants

40.

asked the Minister of Pensions what machinery has been provided for keeping him informed of the applications for pension rejected by local officers of the Ministry as outside the seven years' limit?

No special machinery is in operation for the record of applications of any kind which are clearly outside the Royal Warrants and Statutes, and which, therefore, cannot be entertained by the Ministry.

Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman take steps to set up such machinery so as to keep himself informed of the large number of these eases, many of which are very hard cases, which are being rejected under the present Regulations?

As a matter of fact, when a man writes in and makes a definite claim under Article 9, of course we do have a record, but where a man goes into an area office and asks whether he would be entitled to make an application, it is merely an inquiry, and we do not have any record of such cases.

International Labour (Eight Hours) Convention

49.

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government has decided to ratify the Eight-Hours Convention adopted by the International Labour Conference?

I have been asked to reply. I regret that I am unable yet to add to the reply given on 10th February to the hon. Member for Elland (Mr. W. C. Robinson).

How many countries have given statutory effect to this Convention?

If I received notice of that question, I could give my hon. Friend particulars.

Is it not a fact that most of the European countries have already agreed to ratify the Convention, subject to the condition that Great Britain also ratifies it?

Is it not a fact that ratification of this agreement would hinder the working-class people and increase unemployment?

The answer to the last supplementary question is that that is a matter for argument, which I could rot deal with in answer to a question.

Is it not a fact that several Continental countries have agreed to this, and that not one of them has carried it out?

Art Treasures (Export)

50.

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the sale of the Titian Venus and Adonis to America, the Government has been considering how to conserve art treasures in this country?

Yes, Sir. The present Government desire to associate themselves with the statement made by the right hon. Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) in this House on 3rd August, 1922, to which I would refer the hon. Member, as it is too long to quote.

Will the Government again consider the desirability of putting an Export Duty on works of art going out of this country?

There is another question on that subject to-day, but, as a matter of fact, the method suggested by the right hon. Member for Hillhead of a schedule of particular pictures with a view to State purchase if necessary has hitherto proved entirely adequate, as, so far, no scheduled picture has been sold.

May we assume that the Government will take steps to prevent these art treasures becoming a speculative and financial transaction?

If the hon. Member will look up the reference which I have given him, he will find the whole policy set out. It is not a subject that is suitable for dealing with by question and answer across the Floor of this House.

Did the Government consider it worth while putting this particular picture on the list?

No; I mentioned that no picture on that list had yet been sold. The National Gallery already possess a picture by Titian of Venus and Adonis.

93.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will consider the desirability of imposing an export tax on pictures and objects of art sold by auction or by private treaty?

The hon. Member's suggestion has been noted. It is one which has been exhaustively considered on several occasions. On the general question of conserving the art treasures of this country I would refer him to the answer given to-day to the hon. Member for Pontypool.

Official Statistics

51.

asked the Prime Minister whether he is prepared to establish a central statistics bureau to co-ordinate official statistics, and from which the public could obtain statistics on all matters on which such statistics are prepared or received by public departments?

A Committee was appointed in 1920 to consider the question of the institution of a bureau such as my hon. Friend suggests. The majority of that Committee reported against, the proposal, but recommended that a permanent consultative Committee of statistical officers should be appointed in order to secure a greater measure of co-ordination between Departments. This Committee was set up in 1921, and meets regularly. I see no reason for making any change in the existing arrangements.

Imperial Conference

53.

asked the Prime Minister whether the question of holding the next Imperial Conference in one of the Overseas Dominions has been considered by the Cabinet; and whether such a suggestion would meet with favourable consideration?

His Majesty's Government would, of course, always be ready to consider, in consultation with the other Governments concerned, whether it would be practicable to hold a meeting of the Imperial Conference in one of the Overseas Dominions; but arrangements for these Conferences depend so much on the circumstances in which they are called that I fear it is impossible for me to give a definite reply to my hon. Friend's question.

House Of Lords

54.

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government is in any way identified with the Secretary of State for India in the views he propounded on the reform of the House of Lords last Thursday?

My Noble Friend most plainly, and more than once, indicated that he was not expressing the views of the Government, and that, in fact, the Government had as yet reached no conclusion upon the matter. My Noble Friend added that he was making certain suggestions as an individual Peer which might afford a basis for discussion.

But is not the Noble Lord the Secretary of State for India to be Chairman of the Cabinet Committee?

Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the statements by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Twickenham (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks) on this matter last Friday night, and do they represent the views of the Government?

League Of Nations

International Labour Office

57.

asked the Minister of Labour what steps are taken to ensure that resolutions agreed to by the International Labour Office., and ratified by the British Government, should also be ratified and put into operation by the Governments of those countries whose representatives have agreed to them?

The Treaty of Versailles imposes no obligation on members of the International Labour Organisation to ratify draft conventions or accept recommendations adopted by the International Labour Conference, even if the Government delegates of the member have voted for the draft convention or recommendation, but it is provided that members shall, within a specified period, bring the recommendation or draft convention before the authority or authorities within whose competence the matter lies for the enactment of legislation or other action. It is possible for a State to ratify a given convention with the proviso that the ratification shall not take effect until other States have also ratified, and the Government is now considering what steps can best be taken, whether by this or other means, to secure that conventions ratified by this country shall also be ratified by the other States chiefly affected by their provisions.

Germany

60.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information as to the willingness of Germany to enter the League of Nations; and, if so, on what, if any, conditions?

The hon. and gallant Member is, of course, aware of the communication made by the German Government to the League of Nations, and of the Council's reply. His Majesty's Government have no later information.

May we take it the German Government still insist on the condition they laid down?

Russia

Attacks On Lord Curzon

58.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention hs been called to recent issues of the Russian papers and official organs of the Soviet Government, the "Pravda" and "Isvestia," in which violent attacks are made on the late Lord Curzon and which contain offensive cartoons directed against the Crown; whether he is aware that these journals are being gratuitously distributed in this country by an official Russian agency; and whether he will draw the attention of the Soviet Government to this breach of the undertaking regarding propaganda?

His Majesty's Government are aware that offensive articles and cartoons appear from time to time in the Soviet Press which is on sale in this country. The sale is, I believe, small, and His Majesty's Government have no evidence of any considerable free distribution. I do not suppose that these Russian publications have any effect upon opinion here, unless it be to excite disgust, and they may well be left to the contempt they deserve.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether there is any limitation of the circulation of anti-Bolshevist literature amongst the British delegation in Moscow—whether the "Morning Post" is sold?

Trade Union Delegation

84.

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that a delegation of Russian Communists, under the leadership of M. Tomsky, has arrived in this country and what is the purpose of their visit?

On a point of Order. May I, Mr. Speaker, draw your attention to this question, and inquire whether an hon. Member is entitled to ask the Home Office for particulars of any alien landing in this country and what is the purpose that he declares to be the object of his visit?

The Home Office under the present law has certain duties in regard to the admission of aliens, and for that reason the aliens come under the administration of the Home Secretary.

On a further point of Order. May I suggest to you, Sir, that the purpose of the question is not to get administrative details, and is it not the case that any question which contains any political innuendo would be very properly refused at the Table?

One of the most difficult parts of my duty is dealing with questions that would appear to have some hidden meaning. I do not pretend to have an inside knowledge of 600 minds, but I do my best in the matter.

On a point of Order. Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman entitled to impute motives?

Would a Member of this House be in Order in putting a question down to the Home Office, or the Prime Minister, asking what was the purpose of the visit of any foreign royalty to this country? Would that question be accepted at the Table?

I have known such questions from time to time, but I endeavour to prevent the Order Paper being improperly used. With respect to the present question, I did not see anything in it calling for remark.

I would refer to the answer which I gave on Thursday last to the hon. and gallant Members for Chertsey (Sir P. Richardson) and Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft).

Proposed Five-Power Pact

59.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any official reply has been returned to the recent German proposal for a pact guaranteeing the Rhine frontiers; and whether any such reply will be made by the Allies in common?

His Majesty's Government have so far sent no written reply to the German proposal. With regard to the second part of the hon. and gallant Member's question, I would refer to the answer which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs gave on the 1st April to the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith).

65.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it was stated in the recent German Governmental proposals for a pact of security that the German Government renounced the idea of altering the eastern frontier of Germany by war; and whether this has been made clear to the Allied Governments by His Majesty's Government?

I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the statement which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs made on the 24th March, and to which there is nothing to add.

Might I have an answer to the last part of the question?

I do not see that that has anything to do with His Majesty's Government.

Egyptian Tribute Loan

61.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the actual amount deposited for the Egyptian tribute loan of 1891 and 1894; where it is deposited; and the interest paid on the deposit?

His Majesty's Government have no information beyond that which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs gave to the hon. Member on the 30th March. But Lord Allenby will be asked to make inquiries of the Egyptian Government.

Scotland

Smallholders

66.

asked the Secretary for Scotland the number of smallholders in Scotland in the years 1922, 1923 and 1924, respectively?

The numbers of holdings in Scotland exceeding one and not exceeding 50 acres in extent, according to the returns made to the Board of Agriculture in 1922, 1923 and 1924, were 50,278, 50,422 and 50,545 respectively. An addition of, approximately, 5,000 should be made to those figures in respect of holdings exceeding 50 acres in extent, but of an annual value not exceeding £50.

70.

asked the Secretary for Scotland the numbers of new holdings created and the number of holdings enlarged during the past 12 months, with a statement showing how these figures compare with recent years?

During the year ending the 31st December last, 269 new holdings and 126 enlargements of existing holdings were formed by the Board of Agriculture for Scotland. The corresponding figures for the previous five years are:

1919282 and 114
1920227 and 90
1921415 and 307
1922433 and 304
1923322 and 108

Do the figures the right hon. Gentleman has just given take any account of the number of holdings that have been filled up?

Wherever a holding becomes vacant under any scheme, it is at once refilled.

Does the right hon. Gentleman include these numbers filled up in the figures he has just given?

Arable Cultivation

68.

asked the Secretary for Scotland the number of acres of Land under arable cultivation in Scotland in the years 1920, 1921, 1922, 1923, and 1924, respectively?

The number of acres of land under arable cultivation in Scotland, including land under rotation grasses and clover, in each of the years specified was as follows:

Acres.
19203,380,237
19213,349,067
19223,338,068
19233,298,142
19243,273,116

Emigration

69.

asked the Secretary for Scotland the numbers of emigrants who have left Scotland during the past 12 months?

The number of British subjects recorded as having left permanent residence in Scotland to take up permanent residence in non-European countries during the 12 months ended 31st January, 1925 (the latest period of 12 months for which statistics are avail- able), was 40,174. Residence for a year or more is treated as permanent residence for the purpose of this classification.

Will the hon. Gentleman tell us how many of these families have left under the Empire Settlement Act, 1922?

I shall be glad to give the hon. Member information if he will put down a separate question, as I have not the figures in my mind.

Will the hon. Gentleman say whether the number he has given us of those who have left Scotland has anything to do with the decrease in the cultivation of land, figures for which have just been given?

May I ask if these figures include emigrants to the Colonies, and, if not, can he give us any approximate figures as to the emigrants to the Colonies?

I think they do come within the reply I gave, but if the hon. Member will put down a question, I shall be very glad to give him an answer.

May I have an answer to my question, whether those figures have any relation to the land?

Infantile Mortality

73.

asked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health whether he can state the death rate in the cities of Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, and Aberdeen of children from one to five years of age, and the corresponding death rate in the rest of Scotland, for the years 1923–24 and 1924–25?

As the answer involves a tabular statement, I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer:

Statistics for the financial years referred to in the question are not available, but for the calendar years 1923 and 1924, respectively, the death rate per 1,000 of the estimated population of

children aged over one year but under five years is as follows:

1923.1924.
Glasgow21˙428˙5
Edinburgh17˙319˙7
Dundee25˙330˙5
Aberdeen14˙819˙5
Rest of Scotland10˙214˙1

Agricultural Workers

71.

asked the Secretary for Scotland if he is in a position to give figures from the last Census, contrasting the populations now engaged in agricultural pursuits with the populations so engaged at the three previous Census periods?

The number of persons engaged in agricultural occupations in Scotland according to the Census returns in 1921 was 194,301. The numbers of persons so engaged in 1891, 1901 and 1911 were 213,060, 217,409 and 209,410 respectively.

Have these Census figures been compiled on the same basis in each of the Census periods, or was not the basis altered in 1911 to bring in the relatives?

Calton Gaol, Edinburgh

72.

asked the Secretary for Scotland if it is proposed to sell Calton Gaol, Edinburgh, or if he will consider the retention of this historic building in national ownership?

The question of the disposal of the Calton Gaol is at present receiving my consideration, and I am in communication with the Town Council of Edinburgh on the subject.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give any indication as to whether these buildings might not be used for other national purposes?

The fullest possible consideration is being given to the various aspects of that question.

Education

Secondary Schools (Free Places)

76.

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that, by Circular No. 1,340, dated 4th September, 1924, local education authorities were offered by the Board of Education an increased grant of £2 per head for free-place pupils in secondary schools in excess of 25 per cent. of the aggregate number of pupils on 1st October, 1924, and for succeeding years a grant of £3 per head; whether he is aware that on 9th February, 1925, the Board despatched Circular No. 1,352, stating that the Board bad decided to withdraw such grant; and whether, as each subsequent Circular will preclude the entrance of many prospective pupils, he will give the matter special and personal consideration and withdraw such subsequent Order?

I am aware of the position as represented in the first two parts of the question. As regards the third part, there is nothing in Circular No. 1,352 which precludes local education authorities from awarding additional free places. The Circular was the result of very special and personal consideration on my part, and I am not prepared to re-open the question.

Is the Noble Lord aware that what he has just said means imposing further additional duties upon the local education authorities, and that they cannot afford to hear any more expense?

That is a general question of the grant, and not a question of specially making free places.

Elementary Schools (West Riding, Yorkshire)

78.

asked the President of the Board of Education whether the West Riding (Yorkshire) Education Committee have yet purchased a site at Hatfield, near Doncaster, for an elementary school; and, if so, is it the intention of the committee to provide temporary accommodation pending the erection of a permanent school?

I have no later information on either point than that given in my reply to the hon. Member on the 19th March.

79.

also asked the President of the Board of Education whether the West Riding (Yorkshire) Education Committee have yet purchased a site at Armthorpe, near Doncaster, for an elementary school; and, if so, can he state how long it will be before a temporary school will be erected?

The local education authority informed the Board, an the 21st March that they had not, up to that date, been successful in obtaining any land upon which to erect the proposed new school at Armthorpe, or upon which even temporary accommodation could be erected. The authority are continuing their efforts. Once land can be secured I have no doubt that every effort will be made to erect temporary accommodation with the least possible delay.

Is it not perfectly true to say that the local education authority refused, or failed to send on the information called for; and if the Noble Lord aware that land has been furnished in some cases for the erection of permanent buildings? Will he, therefore, undertake to intimate to the local education authority that they ought not to wait until this state of affairs exists before they take action?

I think the assumption is the question of the hon. Member that the local education authority has been remiss in this matter is quite untrue. I have seen the local authority on the matter of this school within the last few days.

Is the Noble Lord not aware that since the first question was put down a fortnight ago the authority has actually bought the land required for the erection of the school in question, and does he not think that they could have done that previously had they so desired?

80.

further asked if the Minister was aware that the Thorne Colliery Company intend to erect nearly 2,000 houses during the next few years; that the school accommodation will soon be inadequate; and whether any steps are being taken by the local education committee to meet the requirements in this district?

I have seen a statement in the Press to the effect that the Thorne Colliery Company are desirous of erecting 1,800 houses in the course of the next few years, and I am aware that the existing public elementary schools serving this area are nearly full. With regard to the last part of the question, I can only refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave him on the 19th March last. I have no doubt that the position is being kept under the careful observation of the local authority.

Teachers' Superannuation

81.

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware of the hardship caused to old teachers owing to the fact that pensioners in receipt of allowances under the School Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1918, receive no benefit under the Pensions (Increase) Acts, 1920 and 1924; and whether he will introduce legislation to remove this hardship?

I am aware of the fact stated in the first part of the question, but I cannot undertake to introduce legislation amending the Pensions (Increase) Acts, 1920 and 1924, which apply to many other classes of pre-War pensioners besides teachers.

Does the Noble Lord consider that the payment of £62 per year is sufficient for a teacher after 40 years' service, especially in view of the fact that teachers were admittedly underpaid before the War?

Yes, Sir, but that would apply to many cases and to many other pensioners under the Pensions (Increase) Acts, and there is no case that I can see for dealing with teachers separately from other pensioners included in those Acts.

Does the Noble Lord not think it possible to amend the Superannuation Bill now before the House, and include this class of teachers and ex-teachers in it?

No doubt, it would be possible to amend any Bill, but I think it would be undesirable in view of what I have said.

Regimental Bands (Civil Engagements)

82.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the continued serious depression in the entertainment industry, as a result of which a large number of musicians are totally unemployed; and, seeing that the practice of permitting the regimental bands of His Majesty's Forces to accept private employment is one of the causes of this depression, will he issue instructions that service bands must not accept private engagements to the detriment of civilians?

My right hon. Friend has no knowledge of the conditions referred to in the first part of the question. But he would point out that military bands are permitted to accept civil engagements in response to a public demand for their services, and that they may not accept such engagements at lower rates than would be charged by civilian bands whose members belong to the Musicians' Union. My right hon. Friend is not prepared to issue instructions to the effect desired by the hon. Member.

Traffic Regulations, Stratford

83.