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Oral Answers To Questions

Volume 234: debated on Wednesday 29 January 1930

The text on this page has been created from Hansard archive content, it may contain typographical errors.

British Residents, China (Taxation)

1.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether British residents in China pay any Income Tax either to the British Government or to the Chinese Government; and whether any British residents in China pay any local taxes to the Chinese authorities?

The fact that a person is resident in China does not of itself exempt him from liability to British Income Tax. British residents in China pay no income tax to the Chinese Government. Although in general British residents in China are not legally liable to local taxation by the Chinese authorities, they do, in fact, in areas controlled by the Chinese pay municipal taxes provided that these are regular and nondiscriminatory in form and reasonable in amount.

Russia

Propaganda

2.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the decision of the Presidium of the Komintern of the 24th March, establishing national secretariats for Communist propaganda in many countries, including Great Britain; and what action does he propose to take to obtain the dissolution of this secretariat in Great Britain now that the exchange of Ambassadors has taken place?

Owing to the hon. Member not thinking it necessary to give the year in which the decision to which he refers was taken my Department has been involved in a great amount of research. As a result, only one decision of the 24th of March has been discovered, and that was in 1926. This resolution of the Presidium of the Comintern dealt with an organisation located in Moscow, not in England, which, in any case, was subsequently abolished, presumably because it was ineffective.

British Subjects

10.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Ambassador at Moscow has received any representations from British subjects in the area of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics respecting their condition; and, if so, whether he can state the nature of their representations?

I have received no notification from His Majesty's Ambassador that any such representations have been made.

British Relations (Dominions)

52.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs if all the British Dominions have expressed approval of the Government's policy in resuming diplomatic relations with Russia?

I would invite the hon. Member's reference to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to the hon. Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Smithers) on the 13th November.

Can the hon. Gentleman tell me in that case why my question, which was put down to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, was transferred to him, in view of the reply just made?

I have no knowledge as to which Department the hon. Member addressed his question when he submitted it to the Clerks of the House, but it has come to me, and I have given him the answer.

On a point of Order. I put the question down to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. I have received a notification from the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs that the question would be transferred, and it is under those circumstances rather extraordinary.

Extradition Law (Continental Countries)

5.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has discussed with the Italian Ambassador the desirability of a reconsideration of the extradition treaty with Italy of 1873, and particularly of mutual provision being made for the delivery up to Great Britain and Italy, respectively, of persons charged with certain criminal offences?

No, Sir. I have not discussed this matter with the Italian Ambassador. The existing extradition treaty with Italy provides for the surrender of persons charged with, or convicted of, certain crimes specified in the treaty. It contains a provision, however, that neither party shall surrender its own nationals. Negotiations with a view to the conclusion of a new extradition treaty have been proceeding for some time past with the Italian Government. While it is proposed that the new treaty shall contain an optional clause in regard to the surrender of nationals, I would point out that, according to the provisions of the Italian Criminal Code, Italian subjects cannot be extradited from Italy.

Is the Foreign Secretary fully seized of the serious allegations that were made by the Attorney-General against an Italian subject in a criminal trial last week, and is it true that, under the present Treaty, if representations are made by the British Government in such a case, provision is made under the Italian Penal Code by which the Italian authorities themselves can take action?

Yes. I think that is correct. Of course, it would involve a great amount of expense for witnesses to be taken to Italy for the trial. I believe that the Department concerned has this matter definitely under consideration.

May I take it that the Foreign Secretary agrees that in the case of a friendly State, such as Italy, he does not apprehend any difficulty if a decision to that effect was arrived at?

I understand that that is the subject of a question on the Order Paper to-morrow.

May I ask whether we observe the same practice, and whether cases have occurred in which we have refused to hand over British subjects to the Italian Government?

7.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether in view of the Hatry case and of the existing international ramifications of business and finance, he can make representations regarding the policy of extradition with Continental countries which at present give immunity to their nationals from being brought to England to stand trial for alleged offences against the laws of this country?

The suggestion involves considerable difficulties which are being examined.

League Of Nations

Paraguay And Bolivia

6.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can give any information with regard to the recent incident between Paraguay and Bolivia which has been reported by the former Government to the Secretary-General of the League of Nations?

An incident between Paraguayan and Bolivian forces in the Chaco district is understood to have taken place on the 17th of January. The Acting President of the Council of the League of Nations telegraphed on the 24th of January to the two Governments reminding them of the pacific settlement of the incident which took place in the same district in December. 1928, and expressing confidence that no serious occurrence would be allowed to compromise the farther successful pursuance of pacific procedure.

New Buildings

8.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what progress has been made in the erection of the new buildings of the League of Nations; whether any additional construction has taken place since the foundation stone was laid in September; and what is the reason for the continued delay?

No actual work of construction has taken place since the laying of the foundation stone owing to certain difficulties which have been encountered by the Building Committee, chiefly in regard to the acoustics of the Assembly Hall. The architects hope to submit final plans, with detailed estimates, by the end of May or the beginning of June, and it should be possible for the actual work of construction to begin in the autumn. Certain preliminary drainage work will be started within the next few weeks. Meanwhile arrangements are being made for inviting and allotting tenders.

Trade And Commerce

Coal Exports To Italy (British Shipping)

9.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware of the hardship inflicted upon the British shipping industry, in which there is considerable unemployment, by the restriction enforced by the Italian Government that the 1,000,000 tons of coal to be exported from this country to Italy must be carried in Italian vessels; and, having regard to the fact that vessels of all nationalities, including Italian, are free to bring to this country commodities of every kind without any restrictions, will he make such representations as may be necessary to the Italian Government, to alleviate the position?

I have been asked to answer this question. I am not aware that the Italian Government have enforced any such restriction as that mentioned by the hon. Member, but under the agreement made at The Hague the arrangements for shipping the coal bought in this country for the Italian State Railways were left to the Italian Government.

Surely the hon. Member, as representing the Government, must know that none of this coal—

Is the hon. Member aware that there is a great amount of unemployment and hardship in the shipping industry, and that none of this tonnage of coal has yet been carried in British bottoms?

Possibly that may be true, having regard to the fact that the carrying of the coal was left to the Italian Government.

Will the hon. Member make representations to his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who agreed to this arrangement, to see whether it cannot be altered?

I am afraid that it may be difficult, having regard to the fact that the Italian Government have shipping of their own, to ask them, to allow their ships to stand idle while other ships are being used.

Is it or is it not a fact that one of the main conditions made by the Italian Government was that this coal should be shipped in Italian bottoms?

I have already answered. The arrangements for carrying the coal were left with the Italian Government.

Why is it that in all these cases there is absolute neglect of British interests?

Tariffs And Imperial Trade

47.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the appointment of a committee of business men and trade union leaders to consider the whole question of tariffs and imperial trade?

The Prime Minister's answer to the question was quite definite and needs no supplementary.

Government Purchases

53.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether, in view of its possible effect upon our export trade to foreign countries of £400,000,000 a year, the Government will reconsider its declared policy that, provided the price and the quality of the article are satisfactory, all purchases should be made within the Empire and none from foreign countries?

The conditions mentioned by the hon. Member in his question limit the extent to which articles can be purchased from Empire sources, and therefore no further declaration of policy seems necessary.

Has the hon. Gentleman considered the disastrous effect that would be produced upon our export trade if all foreign countries were to adopt the same narrow-minded and short-sighted policy?

Royal Navy

Mediterranean Establishments (Parliamentary Secretary's Visit)

12.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty which were the principal naval establishments on the Mediterranean station recently inspected by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty; and what was the principal object of this inspection?

My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary visited the naval establishments at Malta and Gibraltar in order to acquaint himself personally with the local conditions obtaining there.

May I ask whether this visit was made in company with the Secretary of State for War, and whether it had any reference to the proposals to base the Mediterranean Fleet on home ports?

I have nothing to add to what I have said. The Parliamentary Secretary visited these naval establishments in order to acquaint himself with the local conditions.

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the first part of my question, as to whether the Parliamentary Secretary was accompanied by the War Office representative?

Does that mean, supposing that there is no work to do in the dockyards, that the men will not be discharged into poverty but into comfort? Are the Government going to see to that?

That is a point for me, and the right hon. Gentleman took the words out of my mouth.

But, arising out of the reply: Are these men going to be discharged and no provision made for them to live? Are they simply going to be thrown on the scrap heap in the same way as 600 men have been thrown out at Beardmore's at Parkhead just lately by a Labour Government? [Interruption.] Yes, but we are up against hard facts, and I am not going to sit here—[Interruption.]

The hon. Member knows quite well that that is not the way to behave in the House.

The hon. Member's question does not arise out of the question on the Order Paper.

That is for you to say, but I have a right, when I put a question, to get an answer, and it is your duty, Sir, to see that I get an answer. [Interruption.]

I am not going to have any controversy with the hon. Member. He really must obey the Rules of the House.

The hon. Member's supplementary question did not arise out of either the original question or the reply.

Industrial Establishments (Leave)

14.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he is aware that the decision to standardise the six days' leave with pay by closing the Royal Dockyards for a week each August has caused dissatisfaction; and, if the decision continues to stand, if he will state what the position of an employé not entitled to the leave will be during the week the Royal yards are closed?

16.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether it is proposed to close all the dockyards during the next August bank holiday week in order that employés may take their week's holiday with pay at the same time; and whether, owing to the diversity of opinion, before any decision on this matter is reached a vote will be taken of the men concerned?

After full consideration of the representations on behalf of the men concerned put forward through the machinery of the Industrial (Whitley) Council, the Board have decided, in the interests of economy and efficiency, to grant the six days' leave with pay in Admiralty industrial establishments by closing each of them for a week during the usual holiday period. The actual week to be adopted in each case, and other matters arising out of this decision, will be discussed at further meetings of the council, and the Admiralty do not propose to adopt any other method of ascertaining and discussing the views of the men than that provided by this machinery.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on this point the Whitley Council has not represented the views of the men? Surely, if a week's holiday is to be given, the convenience of the men in relation to the holidays of their children should be consulted?

We have to consider the most economic and efficient way of carrying out the general decision of the Government in this matter.

May I ask if this decision is going to apply to the staff at the Admiralty, and why it is, when economies are necessary, that the workers have always to suffer?

I do not quite follow the question of the hon. and gallant Member with regard to the Admiralty staff; I do not know whether he means the civil staff at the dockyards or at the central office in London. There is no need to follow the same practice in regard to the central staff, because you do not get the same difficulty of the on costs in industry. That is the governing factor in this decision. As regards the latter part of the supplementary question, I should have thought that the actions of the Government show that we do take into consideration the case of the workers.

Dockyards (Alternative Work)

15.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been called to the fact that, in spite of the declared readiness of the Admiralty to explore avenues for alternative work in the dockyards, his Department has declined to undertake by Devonport Dockyard either the design or the erection of a 2,000,000 cubic feet gas-holder which it is proposed by the Plymouth City Council to erect at St. Levan Road, Devonport, at a cost of £32,000; and whether, seeing that the work involved would provide the employment of local labour, he will in future see that it is the policy of the Admiralty not to reject offers of this nature but actually to seek them?

The invitation to tender for this work was warmly appreciated and carefully considered by the Admiralty, but it was found that to accept the invitation would require a detailed and particular knowledge of the designing and erection of modern gasholders, for which a special staff would be required without any prospect of further orders. The utmost that the Department could, in the circumstances, offer was to tender for the fabrication of the steelwork, this being the portion of the work which would, in fact, give employment to dockyard labour. An offer was made to undertake this part of the work.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, when he announced that it was the intention of the Government to explore avenues for giving employment for the dockyards, the city council of Plymouth offered this work to the Admiralty in conjunction with other tenders, and that the Admiralty wrote a most off-hand letter refusing the work? Is it the policy of the Government to explore avenues for alternative work or to reject them out of hand?

Is it not true that this proved to be an important scheme, and is it right for Liberal and Labour Members of Parliament to raise false hopes in the dockyard workers?

With regard to the supplementary question of the hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Hore-Belisha), may I say that there is no possible foundation for the statement that an offhand reply was sent, and I submit to the hon. Member that he would be the first to criticise any action taken by us to provide alternative work which afterwards proved to be economically unsound. As there was no prospect of any further work of this kind for the dockyard, it was decided not to engage a special staff to design and prepare plans only for the purpose of submitting tenders.

Seeing that negotiations are now proceeding at the Conference in London, which we hope will be successful in restricting navies, may I ask whether the Admiralty is making any provision to ensure that my fellow engineers who will not be required will find some work in the dockyards?

I have stated in the House that we are making careful inquiries all the time with a view to providing alternative work wherever possible; and the hon. Member may rest-assured that inquiries in that direction will be continued.

24.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he is aware that a number of established drillers, riveters and machinists employed in Portsmouth dockyard have been served with notices of discharge as being redundant after 20 years' service, and have been offered alternative employment at greatly reduced rates of pay, some on the lowest rate for skilled labour; if he will inquire into the matter; and if he can say how these men's pensions will be affected?

Owing to a dearth of work on riveting, drilling, caulking, etc., a number of workmen, including 14 established riveters and one established machinist have become redundant. The alternatives are discharge on reduction with pension and/or gratuity earned by service or such other employment in the dockyard as is available at the appropriate rate of pay. They have been offered the only available employment, which is in the grade of painter's assistant, and it is open to the men to accept or reject this offer. By remaining in employment, these men retain a possibility of filling vacancies that may arise in their former grade. The effect on their pensions if they accept cannot, therefore, be estimated as pensions are assessed on the average earnings for three years prior to retirement.

Will these men continue to pay their establishment fee of 2s. 6d. a week?

I should imagine so, but I do not want to be committed to that statement. I would like to make inquiries. I shall do so and communicate with the hon. Gentleman.

The right hon. Gentleman is aware that at any rate their wage will be lower than that of any other hired men in the yard?

I have already stated the facts, and, if the hon. Gentleman requires any information arising out of them, I shall be pleased to give it to him.

26.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will state the reasons for the abandonment of the cruiser programme in His Majesty's Dockyards; whether he will give particulars of the effect of the Government's decision on employment in His Majesty's Dockyards and of the loss of money on the Dockyard Vote; and what steps are being taken to provide alternative work for the workpeople in the dockyard towns who would have been engaged?

I assume the hon. Member is referring to the cancellation of His Majesty's Ships "Surrey" and "Northumberland." The suspension of work on these ships was decided upon by His Majesty's Government in July last for reasons of high policy fully set out in the statement the Prime Minister made in this House on the 24th July (OFFICIAL REPORT, Columns 1304–11). As very little work had been done on these ships at that date the recent decision to regard them as cancelled is of no material significance and was taken as a matter of administrative convenience in connection with the framing of the Navy Estimates. As regards the second part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answers that have already been given on various occasions to questions in this House, showing that it has not been necessary to reduce dockyard employment in consequence of stopping work on these and other ships. As regards the future, I am not yet in a position to make any statement on the question of alternative work. The matter continues to engage the attention of the Admiralty.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us that the abandonment of two cruisers is going to have no effect whatever on the employment in the dockyards? Does he mean to say that he cannot provide any estimate of the number of men who would have been employed if the cruisers had been built?

I should have thought that the hon. Member, representing a dockyard constituency, would have known that a good deal depends upon the other classes of work done for the Navy with the particular yard, and that, as there is more than one yard, when a ship is being constructed in one yard arrangements are made with the various yards and the work is spread over Up to the present I have had no difficulty, and I do not anticipate any difficulty.

Will the right hon. Gentleman account for the fact that some of us have never made a party question out of the dockyards, and will he look at some of the promises that some of the Labour men have made?

East African Coast (Cruise)

17.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty why the projected cruise of the East Indian squadron down the coast of East Africa has been postponed; and whether any other arrangements have been made to show the British flag to our traders on the East African coast?

I have no information as to any postponement of the cruise on the East African coast. It is anticipated that His Majesty's Ship "Effingham" and His Majesty's Ship "Enterprise" will leave Aden for the cruise about the 1st of May.

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the second part of the question, whether any other arrangements have been made to show the British flag to our traders on the East African coast?

I think the answer to the first part of the question makes an answer to the second part unnecessary.

But does the right hon. Gentleman realise that this is not only protection for our ships but for our trade as well? It is very important to show our flag if we are to keep our markets against the competition of the Germans and Americans.

The Government have already taken note of that, and the hon. and gallant Member may be confident that we shall do all in our power to do what he desires.

May I ask what connection there is between cruisers, implements of death, and trade?

Cruiser Strength

18.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will state the increase or decrease in the naval Estimates in each of the next five years which would result from fixing the British cruiser-strength at 50?

There are at present 54 British Empire cruisers built, and four in an advanced stage of construction. The effect on British Estimates of fixing the total at 50 must clearly depend on the size of cruisers retained, the type of cruiser built in replacement of those that become obsolete, and the rate at which the change is effected. Decisions on these questions depend on the conclusions of the Naval Conference.

Has any estimate been made as to whether the cruisers will be of 10,000 tons or smaller?

Invalided Lower-Deck Ratings

19.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what percentage of lower-deck ratings were invalided from His Majesty's service during 1929.

The percentage of lower-deck ratings invalided from His Majesty's Navy during 1929 was 1.37.

His Majesty's Ship "Selkirk" (Christmas Leave)

20.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he is aware that the Christmas leave recently given to the majority of the crew of His Majesty's Ship "Selkirk" has meant unnecessary discomfort and hardship to those remaining; and if he can see his way in future to give the periodic leave, to which men employed on fishery protection duties are entitled, from their home ports?

I am having inquiries made and will let my hon. Friend know the result as soon as possible.

Battleships (Replacement)

21.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty the saving to the Naval Estimates in each of the years 1930 to 1936 if replacements of battleships as provided for in Article XX of the Washington Treaty be deferred until 1936?

Assuming that the ships would be of the maximum displacement allowed by the Treaty, namely, 35,000 tons, the estimated cost of building them, which would be saved if none were laid down until the beginning of 1937, is:

£
19311,030,000
19326,065,000
193310,050,000
193411,873,000
193512,035,000
193610,370,000

Officers (Photographs)

23.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, with regard to the instructions recently issued requiring all officers at certain stages of their naval careers to submit photographs of themselves to the Admiralty, he will state for what purposes these photographs are required; and at what stages of their naval careers officers have to submit them?

As the answer is long and detailed, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer:

The photographs are required to make the records of officers which are kept at the Admiralty more complete, and to assist the staffs in dealing with officers, many of whom call at the Admiralty on personal matters. The stages of an officer's naval career at which photographs are required are as follow:

  • Executive officers:
  • On promotion to sub-lieutenant or mate (confirmed).
  • On promotion to commander.
  • On promotion to captain.

  • Engineer officers:
  • On promotion to sub-lieutenant (E) or mate (E) confirmed.
  • On promotion to engineer commander or commander (E).
  • On promotion to engineer captain or captain (E).

  • Chaplains:
  • On entry.

  • Instructor officers:
  • On entry.
  • On promotion to instructor commander.

  • Medical officers:
  • On entry.
  • On promotion to surgeon commander.

  • Dental officers:
  • On entry.
  • On attaining six years' seniority as surgeon lieutenant-commander (D).

  • Accountant officers:
  • On promotion to paymaster sub-lieutenant (confirmed).
  • On promotion to paymaster commander.

Government Departments (Admiralty)

13.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether an assistant secretary to the Admiralty is due for retirement at an early date; and, if so, whether this opportunity will be taken to revert to the pre-War position and merge the section concerned into another Department?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, the position has already been carefully reviewed and it has been decided that it would not make for convenience or efficiency to make any change in the present arrangement.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in 1914 the Admiralty Secretariat consisted of one permanent secretary and two assistant secretaries. It now consists of one permanent secretary, one deputy-secretary, two principal assistant secretaries, and seven assistant secretaries, and does he not think that as vacancies occur economies could be made?

I have seen the hon. and gallant Member's article in a Conservative newspaper this morning—[HON. MEMBERS: "The 'Daily Mail'!"]—giving similar figures. I should say at once that those figures would require careful examination and qualification. In this particular case the man to be appointed will be in charge of the Labour Department of the Admiralty which is concerned with the workers in the Dockyards, and I should have thought that the hon. Member sitting for a dockyard constituency would have desired that it should be properly staffed.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the man to be appointed will be sympathetic to the point of view of the men working in the dockyards?

Palestine

Dead Sea Salts (Concession)

26.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the present state of the Dead Sea concessions; and whether the agreement has been signed and ratified handing over these concessions to Mr. Novomeysky?

The hon. and gallant Member was informed on the 13th of November last that a preliminary agreement had been signed in the previous May and that the final draft of the concession was under consideration. The transaction has since been completed and a deed was signed on the 1st of January granting the concession to Palestine Potash Limited, a company formed by Mr. Novomeysky and Major Tulloch for this purpose. The concession is on the lines of the heads of agreement printed in Command Paper No. 3326.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this was repre- sented before the Commission in Palestine to be one of the causes of the trouble in Palestine? Is it not dangerous in the present position, that the agreement should be ratified?

This agreement was made by the previous Government. We were committed to it and had in honour to carry it out.

Disturbances (Report)

35.

asked the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies when he expects to receive the report of the committee of inquiry into the recent disturbances in Palestine; and whether the, minutes of evidence will be published at the same time as the report?

I am not in a position to say when the report will be ready. On its receipt, my Noble Friend will consider the question of publication of the voluminous evidence, whether simultaneously with the report or not.

May I ask whether, simultaneously with the publication of the report, there will he issued a statement of the Government's views on the outbreak and the methods to be adopted for avoiding outbreaks in the future, in view of the fact that up to now the Government have consistently refused to express an opinion on the ground that the matter was sub judice while before the Committee?

Obviously, the Government cannot express an opinion until it has had an opportunity of considering; the report.

I am asking whether, when the report is issued, the Government will also issue a statement of their views. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"] I am perfectly entitled to ask.

Repatriation

48.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that numerous Arabs from Palestine had gone to the United States under old Turkish pass-ports after the War and have been re- fused permission to return to Palestine or to obtain Palestinian citizenship; and will he see that similar treatment is given to them as to Jews who desire to return to their country and to obtain Palestinian citzenship?

Many applications for Palestinian citizenship have been accepted from Turkish nationals resident abroad who were natives of Palestine. In cases in which applications have been refused, naturalisation can be obtained by the applicants if they return to Palestine and reside there for two years. Visas for Palestine are freely granted to any natives of Palestine who desire to return to that country if they can prove that they were born in Palestine and still possess Turkish citizenship, subject to the usual restrictions in regard to such matters as character and disease. The law and regulations on this subject apply to all persons born in Palestine, without distinction of race.

Why is it any more difficult for Arabs to come into the country than for the 100,000 Jews who have come in from Eastern Europe during the past 10 years? Why is there this differentiation?

On a point of Order. I was asking a definite question of fact, and it was not a hypothetical question at all. I asked why such a differentiation should be made.

I thought I heard the word "if" in the hon. and gallant Member's supplementary question.

Kenya (Defence Force)

27.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the Select Committee revising the Budget of Kenya have insisted on an addition of £9,000 for the European Defence Force, and a corresponding reduction in other Votes; and whether the Governor and the official members agreed with the members elected by the settlers on this matter?

The position is still as stated in my reply to the right hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) on the 22nd January. A despatch from the Governor may be expected to arrive at an early date.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in November I got the answer that the Governor assured him that he had no apprehension regarding defence at that time, and that three months afterwards this resolution was passed? Does it not look as if the circumstances were not as stated in November? Will the hon. Gentleman ask the Governor to keep in touch with the settlers so that he can fairly represent their views?

What the hon. and gallant Gentleman says will be taken into consideration when the despatch arrives.

Sea Fisheries (Kenya And Tanganyika)

28.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any assistance has been given to research into the question of sea fisheries off the east coasts of Kenya and Tanganyika?

By agreement between the Governments of Kenya, Zanzibar, and the Tanganyika Territory, arrangements were made for Dr. von Bonde, Government Marine Biologist and Director of the Fisheries and Marine Biological Survey, Union of South Africa, to visit East Africa for the purpose of surveying the sea fisheries. Dr. von Bonde, who arrived at Mombasa on the 20th September, 1928, has made reports on the sea fisheries of Kenya and Zanzibar. As no suitable vessel was available for continuing the survey as far as Dar-es-Salaam, the Government of the Tanganyika Territory decided not to participate in the survey.

Iraq (British Railway Officials)

29.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any decision has yet been come to regarding the future position of British officials on the Iraq railways?

No, Sir. I am not yet in a position to add anything to the reply given to the hon. Member for Melton (Mr. Everard) on the 20th of November last.

Are we to understand—taking into account the reply to which the hon. Gentleman refers—that a final decision has been come to regarding the future of these officials.

No, Sir, that is not so. Negotiations are still proceeding as opportunity offers. The position is that these arrangements were not made when the railways were taken over by the Iraq Government, and, therefore, we can only proceed at present by negotiation, and whenever possible this is being done.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the question has now been hanging over for a number of years, and does he not think that the time has come to put an end to it; and is not the future of these British officials a matter of concern to the Colonial Office?

Yes, Sir, it is a matter of great concern, but I must point out that the railways have now passed under the control of the Iraq Government. This matter was not settled at the time when that control was taken over, and, therefore, the conditions are not favourable for pressing the matter from our side. We are doing what we can.

I can give no date and no assurance except that we are trying to regularise the position. We are anxious to make it right, but we can act in the matter only as we have the opportunity and the power.

Uganda (Awards For Gallantry)

30.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any information with regard to the action of a native on the Kagera Road, Uganda, who, by mounting and spearing a lioness, saved the life of Major Mathews, who was being mauled by the lioness and whether it is proposed to keep a record of these cases of exceptional bravery and secure some suit- able award to be made by the Government in each case?

I have no information regarding the incident referred to in the first part of the question. Should exceptional acts of bravery of this kind be brought to the notice of the Governor of a Colony, Protectorate or Mandated Territory, it is open to him to submit a recommendation to the Secretary of State for the Colonies, who would consider whether he could put forward the case as one in which recognition could appropriately be made by the award of the Albert Medal or the Medal for Gallantry or Meritorious Service of the Order of the British Empire, or in any other way.

Malaya

Mui-Tsai

31.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is now in a position to make a statement regarding the existence of the system of mui-tsai in Malaya?

My Noble Friend has not yet received from Malaya the Report for which he has asked.

Indians (Toddy Drinking)

33.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that there has been a serious increase in the habit of toddy drinking amongst certain sections of the Indian community in Malaya, and that Indian public opinion has expressed itself strongly in this matter and representations have been made to the authorities; and what steps are being taken to check the growth of this evil?

My Noble Friend has seen the criticism to this effect in the last Report of the Agent of the Government of Indian in Malaya. The High Commissioner for the Malay States will be asked for a report on the matter.

Teachers

34.

asked the Under- Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any decision has been arrived at by the authorities in Malaya in regard to the proposal that, in view of the shortage of properly trained teachers for the schools on the estates, trained ele- mentary school teachers should be recruited from South India until facilities are provided for training a sufficient number of vernacular teachers locally?

My Noble Friend has no information of any decision, but will ask the High Commissioner for a report.

Tanganyika

Trades Licensing Ordinance

32.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will give information in regard to the languages in which accounts necessary under the Trades Licensing Ordinance have to be rendered by traders in Tanganyika whose profits exceed £150?

The Ordinance to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers was repealed in March, 1927. Traders in Tanganyika do not now have to render accounts.

Railway Scheme

42.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what action is being taken on the Report of Mr. E. Gillman on the project for a new railway to open up the south-west of Tanganyika territory; whether the proposal has yet been submitted to the Advisory Committee under the recent Colonial Development Act: and whether it is the decision of His Majesty's Government to proceed as soon as possible with the construction of such a railway?

Mr. Gillman's Report is a summarised version of surveys, which have been carried out during the last few years, of routes for a projected railway from some point on the Tanganyika Central Railway to a point on the Northern Rhodesia border. The alternatives discussed in the Report require further examination locally before the Governor can submit definite proposals, but, as soon as he is in a position to make a recommendation, it will be promptly considered and referred to the Colonial Development Committee.

Nigeria (Administration Of Justice)

36.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if in view of the fact that litigants and persons appearing before the provincial and native courts of South Nigeria are denied the right of retaining counsel to represent them, even in cases of persons charged with murder, and that persons sentenced to terms of imprisonment by the provincial courts of South Nigeria have no right of appeal or to ask for a case stated, he will take steps to bring the administration of justice in South Nigeria into conformity with modern standards?

For an account of the court system in Nigeria generally. I would refer the hon. Member to Lord Lugard's Report on the Amalgamation of Northern and Southern Nigeria and the Administration of the Dependency, published in 1920 as Cmd. 468. Native courts administer native law and custom, and their procedure is in no way modelled on that of the British Courts, and legal practitioners have never been admitted. In regard to the Provincial Courts, the reasons for not admitting legal practitioners are set forth in paragraph 50 of the Report which I have mentioned, but in regard to cases of murder, every accused person before a Provincial Court may apply to have the case transferred to the Supreme Court. As every sentence of a Provincial Court is reviewed before it is carried into effect, it has not, so far, been considered that there is any necessity for setting up further machinery to provide for appeals in criminal cases, while, in civil cases, appeals lie to the Supreme Court in any case over £50.

They are reviewed by the Chief Justice and the Attorney-General, and, finally, by the Governor.

Is this not the only instance to be found throughout the British Empire and the Protectorates where an accused person is denied the advantage of being represented by counsel before an official tribunal?

Before the hon. Gentleman answers that question, may I ask if it is not axiomatic in the system of indirect rule in Nigeria that the native law and the native methods of carrying out justice should not be interfered with, and that, as far as possible, these cases should be left to the native courts?

Yes, Sir, and I think it has been agreed that the system has worked well in the past and that these matters are better dealt with by purely native courts—which understand them better and have a better acquaintance with local conditions—than in the way suggested.

Fiji (Franchise)

40.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received a Report from the Governor of Fiji as to the outcome of the conference convened by him on the franchise question; and whether he can state what the present position is regarding the vacancies in the legislature created by the resignation of the Indian Members?

The Secretary of State is awaiting a despatch on the situation from the Governor of Fiji which is expected to arrive early in February.

East Africa (Customs Duties And Railway Rates)

41.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether a summary of the conclusions of the recent conference of East African Governors regarding customs duties and railway rates has been received; whether their recommendations have received the approval of His Majesty's Government; and when the nature of the recommendations will be made public?

My Noble Friend has received a telegraphic summary of the provisional agreement reached at the conference concerning protective customs duties and preferential railway rates. Further local discussions are now taking place in regard to the conference recommendations on these matters. As has been announced in the Press, the conference also appointed an expert committee to examine in detail existing customs tariffs (excluding certain protective duties) and to recommend whether any alterations are necessary in the light of past working. My Noble Friend has not yet received the full report of the conference and no approval on the part of His Majesty's Government has been signified. He cannot say when the East African Governments concerned will he in a position to make public the recommendations of the conference.

West Indies Sugar Industry (Commission)

43.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies when the Report of the Commission on the Sugar Industry in the British West Indian Colonies is likely to be received; whether the members of the Commission are being paid any fees in addition to travelling expenses and subsistence allowances; and, if so, of what amounts and who will bear the cost of such payments?

The Commission have just returned to this country and my Noble Friend expects to receive their Report at an early date. Fees amounting to £1,207 10s. are being paid to the members of the Commission, in addition to travelling expenses and subsistence allowances. The total cost of the Commission is being borne by the Colonies visited, and the expenditure will be allocated between them.

Is there any precedent for the whole cost of a Commission of Inquiry sent out at the request of a Colony, being borne by the Colony, and, as these Colonies happen to be very poor, why has not the precedent, whereby portions of the expense is borne by the Imperial taxpayer, been followed in this case?

I understand that this arrangement was agreed to between the Colonies concerned and the Government.

Is it not quite a new departure to pay fees to members of a Commission like this in addition to their expenses?

Hong Kong (Slave Trade)

44.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any information has yet been received from the reported discovery of a gang of slave traders in Hong Kong, whose operations extend into China for the purpose of securing children in order to sell them in the British Colony of Hong Kong?

My noble Friend has received from the Governor a report of the occurrence to which my hon. Friend refers. There was, however, no evidence secured to show that the persons arrested were members of a gang, but it appeared that each establishment of the several traffickers was independent of the others. All the children discovered by the Hong Kong police had been brought into the Colony from Chinese territory and in no instance was any evidence forthcoming that they had been kidnapped. Several were claimed by the would-be vendors to be their own offspring, and those who were old enough to give an account of themselves usually claimed relationship. They were, at the time the Governor sent his report, being cared for by various charitable institutions in Hong Kong. 47 of the traffickers had at that date been arrested, of whom 17 had been deported from the Colony after due inquiry.

Coast Defence Bill

45.

asked the Prime Minister if he intends to proceed with the Coast Defence Bill or if he intends to withdraw it and cause it to be re-introduced in a form in accordance with the many Amendments put forward on the Committee stage at the instance of several local bodies and other associations?

I can add nothing to what I have already said in reply to questions on this subject.

May I ask the Prime Minister to get in touch with the local authorities, who are perfectly willing to help him get on with the Bill provided their objections are met, and may I stress the need of the unemployed, who will benefit considerably by a suitable Bill being introduced?

I have done my best, seeing the interest taken in this Bill by several Members of the House, to master the problems presented by the Amendments, and to me, unfortunately, it is rather evident on the face of it that the Amendments are not all from local authorities genuinely wanting the Bill; but, if anything can be done in order to reduce the opposition to the Bill to a reasonable compass, I shall be only too glad to see what facilities are possible for the Bill.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not think it is for him to suggest the best means of having a conference or other measures with the local authorities, and that it is not for us private Members to suggest to him the best means?

My point is this, that, if a conference with friendly local authorities would really remove the difficulties, that conference would be arranged, but that would not, I think, remove the difficulties.

Trade Disputes Bill

46.

asked the Prime Minister whether he proposes to give early facilities for the Trade Disputes Bill?

Is it true that the Prime Minister stated to the representatives of the trade unions a few days ago that, while he hoped to be able to proceed with the Land Drainage Bill this Session, it was exceedingly doubtful if the Trade Disputes Bill could make sufficient progress to pass into law at any rate immediately?

I should hope that ex-Ministers are not going to make themselves responsible for tittle-tattle.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether that is true or not, and is he not aware that that statement appears in the official Labour organ?

I am not aware that the statement appeared in the official Labour organ; but, at the same time, I think, if I may say so respectfully, that ex-Ministers should not make themselves responsible for retailing these statements without inquiry.

May we make the inquiry now, and will the Prime Minister give the answer?

The right hon. Gentleman has not improved matters. If the right hon. Gentleman thinks it is his function in this House to take up this question, and then to ask the question—[Interruption.]

When an ex-Cabinet Minister asks the right hon. Gentleman a question, will he have the courtesy to answer it?

Certainly. But ex-Cabinet Ministers as a rule have the courtesy not to put questions of the nature of those which have been put to me just now, whether a certain rumour that I said something to somebody else is true or not.

Irish Grants Committee

49.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs when the work of the Irish Grants Committee will be completed; and whether by this date it is expected that all exceptional cases will be re-investigated and settled?

I understand that the Irish Grants Committee expect to complete their work by the first week in February.

Irish Lights (Maintenance)

50.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether the British Government are still bearing the expense of the lights on the coast of the Irish Free State; what is the total sum spent in this respect since the establishment of the Irish Free State as a British Dominion; and why, in view of the terms of the Anglo-Irish Treaty, this charge is not borne by the Irish Free State?

As explained in the replies given to the hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Wight (Captain P. Macdonald) on the 19th and 26th Novem- ber by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, the cost of maintaining Irish lights has been met out of the general lighthouse fund, and no contribution has been made from the public funds of this country. The general question of the future administration of the lights is still under consideration.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that there is an express provision in the annexe to the Irish Treaty that the cost of maintaining lights round the Irish coast would in future be borne by the Irish Free State, and is he aware that some £250,000 a year is being paid in the manner in which he described, which ought to be borne by the Irish Free State under the Treaty?

I do not think my answer contradicts anything that has been suggested in the supplementary question. What I said was that negotiations are now proceeding on this matter.

Can the hon. Gentleman give any indication when these negotiations with regard to pensions are likely to terminate?

The hon. Member is not asking supplementary questions, but merely giving information.

On a point of Order. I should like to ask for my guidance, and for the guidance of hon. Members opposite, whether hon. Members in this House who very rarely ask questions are ever entitled to have a reply from the Front Bench opposite?

Labrador

51.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs if his attention has been called to the announcement of the Finance Minister of Newfoundland that Newfoundland is willing to sell for £60,000,000 the 120,000 square miles which that Dominion owns in Labrador; and whether he will make inquiries from the Newfoundland Government as to the character of their intentions?

I have not seen the report referred to by the hon. Member, though I am aware that references have, from time to time, been made in the Press to the question of the possible sale of Labrador to Canada. The Secretary of State does not think that there is cause for inquiries on his part at the moment.

If it should prove, as stated in the telegrams from St. John's, that the Finance Minister has made this statement, will the Government make inquiries?

At the moment, we have no information upon this matter except that which has appeared in the Press, and we see no reason at the moment to make inquiries. If there is anything that comes from the Dominion Government asking for such, they will be undertaken.

Aviation

Continental Airports (Minister's Visit)

56.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air which were the principal Continental airports recently visited by him during his trip to study Continental air transport systems?

The airports which I visited were those at Rotterdam, Amsterdam, Hamburg, Copenhagen, Malmo, Lubeck, Travemunde, Berlin, Dresden, Prague, Vienna, Munich, Nurenburg, Frankfurt, Cologne and Brussels. So far the question is answered, but I would like to add that my journey over nine countries in ten different types of aeroplanes in four-and-a-half days afforded convincing evidence of the comfort and efficiency of Continental air travel.

Can the hon. Gentleman say by what staff he was accompanied, and whether he made the voyage as a guest of the Continental transport lines?

Airships (Cost)

57.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air if the Air Ministry charge a reproduction fee in respect of all photographs published of airship R101; if so, what is the amount of revenue so derived to date from this charge; and whether this practice is customary in respect of all photographs portraying Government aircraft?

The answer to the first and last parts of the question is in the affirmative, and to the second part that the amount received up to 31st December, 1929, in respect of reproduction fees, was £67.

58.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air the amount of the Estimate originally submitted to the House for the construction of R101; what is its actual cost; and what was the actual total cost of R100?

As regards the first two parts of the question, the original estimate was a composite one for the whole airship programme, of 1924, but the sum provided for the construction of R101 may be put at approximately £300,000. Owing to the novel and experimental character of the design, the time taken in construction proved materially longer than had originally been estimated, and in consequence, this figure had subsequently to be increased; and in the Air Estimates for 1929 a figure of £527,000 was given for this purpose. The figure of actual cost cannot yet be stated. As regards the last part of the question, I have no official information, but it has been publicly stated that the cost of constructing R100 largely exceeded the contract price of £350,000.

Does the hon. Gentleman think that it is to the interest of the State that airships—

Loss Of "City Of Rome"

59.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air if any report has yet been received from the Italian Government about the loss of the seaplane "City of Rome"?

Yes, Sir; a report has been received from the Italian Air Ministry, but it relates mainly to the working of that department's organisation on the Naples-Genoa route. I am afraid that nothing material can be added to the reply which I gave my hon. Friend on 27th November.

In previous replies the hon. Gentleman informed us that the Italian Government had not sent a report; what steps has the Minister taken with a view to getting it?

I have already told the hon. Gentleman that a report has been received from the Italian Government.

Coal Mines Money

May I ask the Prime Minister if it is proposed to withdraw the Financial Resolution which we debated yesterday, and to substitute a new one; if so, when will it be put down?

A revised Money Resolution to the Coal Mines Bill will be placed on the Order Paper tonight. I understand that it is to be in an agreed form—[Interruption.] I have only been able to make inquiries as to what was intended, and the intention is to come to an agreement as to the wording of the Resolution in accordance with what happened yesterday in the House. In accordance with the understanding reached yesterday afternoon, it is proposed to take the revised Resolution as the first Order to-morrow.

Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will allow us, through the usual channels, to see the Resolution.

The right hon. Gentleman has quite correctly stated the agreement that was arrived at yesterday.

I asked that this should be done, and I was informed that there was so little chance of any disagreement, that I could quite safely announce this in the form which I had used.

Provided, of course, the Prime Minister can give an assurance that the Resolution is wide enough to carry all the Amendments on the Paper.

I understand that an opportunity will be given to see the Resolution before it is put down; that will be a great help. The right hon. Gentleman has stated the arrangement very fairly.

According to my request, the Resolution will be shown before it is put down, and it will be put down in an agreed form.