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Commons Chamber

Volume 350: debated on Friday 4 August 1939

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House Of Commons

Friday, 4th August, 1939.

The House met at Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Oral Answers To Questions

Metropolitan Police (Appeals)

1.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the number of appeals made to him by members of the Metropolitan Police Force from decisions of the disciplinary board under the Police Appeals Act, 1927, for the three years ended to the last convenient date; and the number of these appeals which succeeded?

During the three years ended on the 31st ultimo three members of the Metropolitan Police Force appealed to the Secretary of State under the Police Appeals Act, 1927. None of the appeals was successful.

Do these persons have an opportunity of being legally represented in appeals before the Home Secretary?

German Subjects, Great Britain

2.

asked the Home Secretary whether the following German subjects. Dr. Marietta Goetze, Herr Heinz Mitschke, Dr. Wichert, Herr Bumbee, Dr. Gunther Gurcke, Herr Klaus Bumke, Herr Eberhard Heerde, Herr Karl Lin-hard, Fraulein Sonnenfeld, Herr Hildebrandt, Herr Huschelrath, and Herr Heinz Schloer, are still in this country; and for what purposes they were granted admission?

Of the persons mentioned, four have left this country, and three cannot be identified from the particulars given. Of the remaining five, four are working as assistant teachers under Ministry of Labour permits and one is a student teacher.

Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate that all these persons have recently delivered lectures before the German propaganda agency organisation in this country known as the "Link," which is partly financed by the German Government, and will he make careful inquiries into the activities of these persons and decide whether they ought to be allowed to remain in this country any longer?

The information before my right hon. Friend is that most of the persons mentioned have given talks on various subjects at such meetings. On the general question, my right hon. Friend did give the hon. Member an answer yesterday on the activities of this organisation, and, of course, the question whether these particular individuals are abusing the hospitality of this country depends upon the nature of the talks which they have given.

May I have an assurance that their activities are being carefully watched?

That assurance has been given to the hon. Member several times before, and he can rest assured that the organisation is under very close watch all the time.

Has the hon. Gentleman been to see the film "Confessions of a Nazi Spy"?

Aliens (Deportation)

3.

asked the Home Secretary whether the five aliens smuggled into Britain on the Dutch ship "Velocitas," and who were recommended by the West London magistrate for deportation, have now been deported, and if so, to what country?

Yes, Sir. The aliens in question were removed from the United Kingdom on 2nd August in the "Velocitas" to Antwerp, the port at which they had embarked for this country.

Colliery Inquest (Jurymen's Fees)

4.

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that at the inquest held in Leigh on the five persons who lost their lives at Astley Green collieries on 6th June, the jurymen attended on nth, 17th, 18th and 19th July; that some of them had to lose work, and therefore wages; and will he say in what way recompense will be made to them for the loss?

The general principle of the law is that jury service is one of the remaining public services which citizens are required to undertake without financial compensation, though in some cases small allowances are payable. The amount which may be paid by a coroner to a person who attends at an inquest is governed by the scale of allowances made by the local authority under the Coroners' Acts. My right hon. Friend has no information of the scale of allowances fixed by the Lancashire County Council.

Can the hon. Gentleman advise me how to tell these people to proceed in order to get some recompense, as this is a serious matter for a man who has to leave his work and attend for three or four days and get no recompense?

If these men have received no fees or allowances, they should apply to the coroner. The coroner has discretion within the limits fixed by the scale of fees laid down by the county council.

May I take it that I should tell them to proceed on that line, and then let the hon. Gentleman know what happens?

I should prefer, if the hon. Member fails to get any satisfaction in that way, that he should take the matter up with the county council upon whom the primary responsibility falls for settling a schedule of fees and allowances.

Journalist (Police Action)

5.

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to an assault committed by members of the Criminal Investigation Department upon Mr. Gladwyn Clements, a journalist of national repute, on Saturday evening last, 29th July; and what steps he intends to take to afford just amends to Mr. Clements and to prevent in future such unauthorised attempts upon the freedom of the Press and the liberty of the subject?

The information my right hon. Friend has is that after the police who were in charge of some prisoners had requested certain photographers not to take photographs, one man nevertheless took a photograph. The police then took charge of his camera and when the prisoners had gone off by train returned it to him on his undertaking to destroy the film. On this version of the incident the hon. Member will no doubt agree that the photographer was in the wrong and not the police.

Can the hon. Gentleman say what authority the police had to request a photographer not to take a photograph in a public place, what authority they had to seize his camera by force, what authority they had to exact any undertaking from him, and what authority they had to destroy his film, if that indeed was the case?

To start with, of course, Euston Station is not a public place; secondly, it is one of the recognised duties of the police to protect prisoners, convicts and other people in their charge from publicity of this kind; and the hon. Member would be the first to complain if a prisoner in whom he was interested had been permitted by the police to have his photograph taken.

Is it not in the public interest that when deportees are taken away under the recent Act with expulsion orders served upon them, the public should know who these people are?

Military Training

Hardship Committees

6.

asked the Minister of Labour the number of applications that have been made to hardship committees for the postponement of military training under the Military Training Act, 1939; and the number of these applications that have been refused?

The numbers up to and including 27th July, 1939, were 7,980 and 3,171 respectively.

Are any records kept by the Ministry to show the number of decisions that were unanimous?

The rights provided for in the Act, of course, apply to all these people.

Local Authorities' Employes

11.

asked the Minister of Health whether it is with the knowledge and approval of his Department that certain local authorities have made pay deductions for time lost by militiamen on their staffs when undergoing preliminary medical examination by the military authorities?

The approval of my Department is not required in this matter. I have no information on the subject.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this allegation is being made in certain areas with a detrimental effect upon public opinion, in view of the fact that conscientious objectors received both railway fares and subsistence allowances when attending the tribunals?

Royal Air Force (Enlistment Applications)

10.

asked the Secretary of State for Air the number of applications received for enlistment in the Royal Air Force for the 12 months ended to the last convenient date and the number that were medically examined, found physically fit, and attested?

I have been asked to reply. Of a total of 103,652 applicants for the 12 months ended 30th June, 1939, 66,276 were medically examined, 48,167 found physically fit, and 40,113 attested.

No, Sir. I understand that the difference between the number of those found physically fit and the number actually enlisted was due to cases in which applicants were rejected for other reasons, such as failure in the trade test, or did not proceed with their application.

Milk (Pasteurisation)

12.

asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to the disclosure in the report of the County Medical Officer for Wiltshire that pasteurised milk used under the milk-in-schools scheme and also pasteurised milk sent wholesale to London and else-where has been found to be tubercular: and what is being done in the matter?

My attention has been called to this report by the county council. I understand that investigations were made and certain pasteurising plants in the county were found to be producing milk which was inadequately pasteurised. The county council informed the local authorities concerned, and the latter took the matter up. In forwarding the report to me the county council recommended that the responsibility for the licensing and supervision of pasteurising plants should be transferred from the local authorities with whom it now rests to the county council. This recommendation would involve an amendment of the Milk (Special Designations) Orders which would doubtless arouse controversy, but I will bear it in mind for consideration when other amendments of the Orders are contemplated.

Mercantile Marine

Local Authorities' Contracts

13.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is satisfied that local authorities are carrying out the recommendations of the circular issued to them in May last to make use of British shipping?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chertsey (Commander Marsden) on 20th July last.

Arising out of that reply, and not knowing what the previous answer was, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he receives reports periodically from the local authorities?

The answer was given as recently as 20th July, and was to the effect that 173 local authorities had replied to the circular and that they were all sympathetic to the proposal, and that 164 had undertaken to include the necessary stipulation in their form of tender.

36.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will immediately communicate with all Government Departments and obtain assurances that as from 7th August full use will be made by them of British coastal shipping.

Communications have been addressed to all Government Departments and, through the Ministry of Health and the Scottish Office, to local authorities, recommending that, whenever possible, all contracts in respect of goods to be carried by sea should contain a clause stipulating for shipment in British vessels.

Has my right hon. Friend seen the report of an Air Ministry official which says that the putting into operation of this agreement depends on suitable contract forms being prepared and which refers to the exhaustion of the stocks of forms already in the hands of the Department, and does he think that is a suitable way of dealing with the suggestions made?

Yes, Sir, I did see that report, and I made immediate inquiries of the Air Ministry. I am informed that they cannot trace any official having made such a statement, and that if it was made, it is entirely incorrect, because in fact all new contracts now being made contain this clause.

In view of the fact that so many Departments are concerned with shipping problems, will my right hon. Friend consider the advisability of appointing a Secretary of Shipping under his guidance?

The appointment of new Parliamentary Secretaries does not fall within my province.

40.

asked the Minister of Transport, whether he is satisfied that only British ships are employed for coastwise transit for contracts for which his Department is responsible.

It is a condition of all contracts entered into in respect of road and bridge works for which my Department is responsible that all materials or plant which are delivered by water-borne coastal traffic must be carried in British ships (so far as such ships are available) unless the prior approval of my right hon. Friend to the use of a foreign vessel has been obtained.. Such approval has never been sought.

National Shipbuilders Security, Ltd

37.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in the contract of the National Shipbuilders Security, Limited, with Irvines Shipbuilding and Dry Docks Company, Hartlepool, he will see fit to have the covenants rescinded as being plainly against public policy, especially in view of the fact that in the event of war the utmost output of vessels would be vital to this country's necessities.

I have no power to interfere with a private contract of this nature. With regard to shipbuilding in time of war, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave on 2nd May last to a question by the hon. Member for Jarrow (Miss Wilkinson).

Would it not be for the convenience of hon. Members asking questions that Ministers in their replies should repeat what the answers were to which they refer, and would it not be more courteous too to hon. Members for them to do so?

Does the right hon. Gentleman really mean to say that when a private company such as this, which is engaged in actually closing down and selling for scrap urgently needed shipbuilding machinery, he has no power to intervene in the interests of public policy?

I have no power at the moment. As I explained to the hon. Lady on that occasion, there is a surplus of shipbuilding capacity in this country, even taking into consideration possible war requirements.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman know that, according to the statistics issued by his own Department, the shipping in this country is far below 1914 standards? How, therefore, can he say that he is taking into consideration all future requirements when the cutting down of shipyards has been so drastic; and does he not think that the time has arrived for some sort of committee of enquiry into National Shipbuilders Security, Ltd.?

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that 100 years ago they would have got hung for that?

British Army

Auxiliary Territorial Service

14.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that, except in one case, no qualifications other than the possession of a title or an O.B.E. are shown in the list of county and senior commandants of the Auxiliary Territorial Service in the latest available list; and whether he will issue a list of the full qualifications these ladies possess for the information of persons seeking to qualify for these positions?

The question is not readily apprehended. Neither the possession nor the absence of a title or of an O.B.E. is, in itself, a qualification. In the absence of previous experience, it was not possible to say in advance how competently any particular duty would be discharged, but it is anticipated that, in future, the posts of chief and senior commandant will normally be filled by promotion. It will be borne in mind that the appointments to which the hon. Lady refers are often arduous, and that they are not paid.

Would it not be possible for the hon. Member for Jarrow (Miss Wilkinson) to be given honorary rank and suitably photographed?

Perhaps I have not made myself clear, but may I ask the hon. Gentleman whether, in view of the list as it is now published, he really thinks that the system of appointing only from a very narrow social class, the class of lords lieutenant of counties, does, in fact, produce the best type of women for these posts; and whether he does not think it would be wise to use some other qualification than that of frequent appearances in the illustrated society papers?

I can assure the hon. Lady that what she suggests in the last part of her supplementary question is not the basis on which appointments are made. I do not think that she would really endeavour to establish that the possession or non-possession of a title is a qualification or a disqualification. These ladies were selected as being considered the best choice which was available. I think it could be said for the most part that they are ladies who have taken a prominent part in local activities and that on that ground alone, they were suitable for these positions.

Is it not singular that these positions should always be filled by persons who belong to what is called the upper classes?

It is not the fact that all these ladies belong to one social class.

Would it not be possible for the hon. Lady the Member for Jarrow (Miss Wilkinson) to be given honorary rank?

North Irish Horse Light Tank Unit

15.

asked the Secretary of State for War, when the reconstitution of the North Irish Horse Light Tank Unit of the Royal Armoured Corps will have proceeded far enough to enable recruiting to be opened.

Does not the hon. Gentleman think that it is very disastrous that all these youths in Ulster, having been denied the benefit of conscription, cannot enlist for another two months?

Did not the Prime Minister when he announced that he could not apply conscription to Ulster, make it clear that, at the earliest possible date, these people were to be given more opportunities for enlistment than English people?

Ex-Service Personnel (Employment)

16.

asked the Secretary of State for War, when, in view of the fact that many ex-officers and others who have been serving as temporary clerks and in similar capacities with Territorial units have been replaced by women, he will do his best to find them some other form of employment.

I have no information to the effect suggested in the Question. On the other hand, recent expansion has given wide opportunity for employment to ex-service personnel.

17.

asked the Secretary of State for War, whether any recommendation has been or will be made to con tractors and others engaged in the construction of Militia camps and similar works to give preference so far as possible to ex-service men, and, where light work only is required, to take on partially- disabled or unfit ex-officers and ex-service men who, though willing to serve their country actively, are debarred from doing so owing to wounds or hardships suffered during the Great War.

Save in exceptional circumstances, War Department contracts are confined to firms who are enrolled on the King's National Roll, which involves the employment of a certain proportion of disabled ex-service men. In addition, fin urgent appeal is addressed to all firms who obtain a War Department contract asking them to employ as large a proportion of ex-service men on their works as they possibly can.

Arising out of these Questions, would the Minister consider an individual case of a wounded ex-officer being replaced by a woman Territorial; and does he not consider that men who fought in the War should have preference over others?

Anglo-French-Russian Conversations

18.

asked the Prime Minister, whether he has any statement to make on the progress of negotiations between Moscow and London.

I have nothing to add to the statement which the Prime Minister made on 31st July.

In order to complete the military side of these negotiations, will the Government of the United Kingdom now send to Moscow a Minister Plenipotentiary?

I am afraid I can add nothing to the statements which the Prime Minister has already made on this and other aspects of this matter.

Are we to take it from the remark made by the Prime Minister on Wednesday last, during the Debate on the Adjournment of the House, that he has very little hope of these negotiations being successful within the next month?

(by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister whether he can state the formulas put forward by the Russian Government on the one side and the British Government on the other to cover the case of indirect aggression?

No, Sir. It is not customary to publish documents of this character without the assent of other parties to the negotiations.

In view of the controversy and uncertainty which exist in this country on this matter, does not the Prime Minister think that it would be in the public interest that the relative positions taken up by the two countries should be clearly stated, and will he be good enough —.

But may I ask —.[HON. MEMBERS: "Order."] I think there is a point which you will admit, Mr. Speaker —.[Hon. Members: "Order."] On a point of Order. The question I want to put to the Prime Minister —.I am not putting it now —.is this: He says that it is not desirable to make any statement without consulting another Government, and my point is whether he will be good enough to consider the possibility of consulting with the Russian Government about a joint publication. That arises directly out of the reply.

Far East (Situation)

19.

asked the Prime Minister whether he has any statement to make on the negotiations between Japan and the United Kingdom?

Perhaps my hon. Friend will be good enough to await the Debate which will be taking place this morning.

21.

asked the Prime Minister whether the Japanese Government have yet furnished any evidence showing the guilt of the four Chinese alleged to have murdered a Japanese agent in Tientsin?

Yes, Sir. The Japanese have communicated to the British representatives in Tokyo their evidence against the four men, and this is now under consideration.

22.

asked the Prime Minister whether the Japanese Government have asked His Majesty's Government to prohibit the use of the Chinese dollar in Tientsin and to hand over the Chinese silver reserves held by British banks there; and what reply His Majesty's Government have made to these requests?

As I stated on 31st July, these are matters which involve interests of other nationals besides our own and we could not, therefore, come to any agreement about them without reference to other Governments. I may add that the silver is not held by British banks, but is in premises owned by the Bank of Communications in the British Concession.

24.

asked the Prime Minister whether any reply has been received from the Japanese Government to the representations made on behalf of His Majesty's Government in regard to the anti-British campaign in China, fomented by the Japanese authorities?

In view of the fact that this anti-British agitation still continues, will not His Majesty's Government press the Japanese Government for a reply; and, failing a reply, will they not consider recalling the British Ambassador for further consultation?

I think the cessation of the agitation is a great deal more important than the reply. His Majesty's Government have made their point of view perfectly clear to the Japanese Government, the latest occasions being the speeches by the Prime Minister and myself in the recent Debate.

Has not ample time been given to the Japanese Government to answer these representations; and is it not an ominous sign that they have failed to do so?

I think they have had time, and I think there can be no doubt about our feelings in the matter.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that, speaking within the limits of the Far Eastern situation and having regard to the world situation, those of us who heard the Foreign Secretary speaking in another place last night were reassured with regard to the way in which this matter's being handled?

Is it not the fact that the Japanese are treating the Government with contempt?

25.

asked the Prime Minister, whether he can make any further statement on the detention of Colonel Spear.

Is there any prominent Japanese who might be detained pending the release of this officer?

What action do His Majesty's Government propose to take in the event of the Japanese Government refusing to release this officer or even to bring him to trial?

The hon. and learned Member may be assured that we are taking a very serious view of this case and that we have the possibility of future action under consideration.

Can my right hon. Friend say where this officer is at the present time, and is he satisfied as to the conditions of this officer's detention?

The officer in question is detained at Kalgan. There has been a delay in providing this officer with certain amenities, but we understand that in some respects the conditions of his detention have recently improved as a result of the representations which have been made.

What is the date of the last news which has been received about Colonel Spear?

Is it not plain that this officer's detention is a definite breach of international law and will not the Government be more vigorous in the protection of their citizens?

Vigour in this case is obviously necessary and the Government have not relaxed their efforts to secure this officer's release. As to diplomatic. immunity, there is some question whether this applies to the exact circumstances of Colonel Spear's movements.

Danzig

20.

asked the Prime Minister whether he has any statement to make on the growth of Nazi aggression in Danzig?

26.

asked the Prime Minister whether he can state the extent to which Danzig has now been militarised?

There has in recent weeks been increasing military and paramilitary activity in the Free City. As the Prime Minister stated in the Debate on Monday, the local situation is being carefully watched and the Polish Government is maintaining close contact with His Majesty's Government.

Will the mounting of heavy guns in Danzig be a test of direct aggression?

Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether the High Commissioner for Danzig keeps the League of Nations informed of all proceedings there, in accordance with his duties?

Yes, Sir, the High Commissioner is in touch with the Committee of Three, appointed by the Council to follow the situation.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is not the case that Danzig, in effect, has already been completely handed over to the Reich, except for the introduction of heavy artillery which would command Gdynia?

Czecho-Slovakia (Assets)

27.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the present position with regard to the Czech blocked accounts in this country; to how many persons and to what value payment has already been made or is contemplated; the total sum involved and its form; through what channel, apart from the Treasury, the administration is taking place; and with what persons and to what extent conversations have taken place concerning the matter with representatives of the German Government?

I would refer the hon. Member to the replies given to my hon. Friend the Member for East Willesden (Mr. Hammersley) on 13th July and to the hon. Member for South West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) on Tuesday last.

Would the right hon. and gallant Gentleman be good enough to answer the last part of my Question which is not covered in the answer to which he has referred me?

As far as that is concerned I think it was covered. The fact is that there have been no conversations or negotiations subsequent to those informal ones which I reported to the House in the middle of May.

The question asks with what persons and to what extent these conversations have taken place. May I have an answer to that?

Agriculture

Training Schemes

28.

asked the Minister of Agriculture what further steps he proposes to take in conjunction with the education authorities in London and throughout the country to encourage the recruiting, training, and placing of urban boys who desire to take up farming as a career?

The general question of what steps it would be practicable to take to augment the supply of recruits for the agricultural industry is continuing to receive careful consideration, and in particular the institution of training schemes for boys is being examined in conjunction with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour. I am not at present in a position to make a further statement.

Does my right hon. and gallant Friend realise the need for encouraging this training?

Will my right hon. and gallant Friend consider sending representatives of the Ministry to certain schools to point out the advantages of an agricultural training?

Women's Land Army

29.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, what weekly sum is being paid to a farmer in respect of training a woman for the Women's Land Army?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer that I gave to the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) on 3rd August.

Marketing Boards

30.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the fact that Mr. J. A. Thomas, of Wisbech, has been made bankrupt in consequence of the proceedings against him of the Milk Marketing Board and is thereby unable to meet the cost of presenting his case adequately before the the committee of investigation, any pro vision exists by which he may receive assistance in the proceedings analogous to that available to poor persons in courts of law; and, if not, whether he will take steps to amend the regulations relating to committees of investigation to ensure that in this and other similar cases lack of means on the part of the complainant will not prejudice the thoroughness of the investigations or the interests of the complainant?

I am not aware of any such provision. As to the second part of the Question, I would point out that the regulations in question may deal only with matters concerning the meetings, quorum and procedure of a committee of investigation.

Does the right, hon. and gallant Gentleman mean that this man is to get no assistance in this matter, in view of the fact that in courts of law legal assistance is given in certain cases and in view of the unfortunate position of those who suffer from the exactions of the Milk Marketing Board?

I realise the difficulties in these cases, but I have given the answer.

Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman not take any steps to help this unfortunate man?

In view of what has gone on, I will give consideration to the point which has been raised.

Is it not a primary British obligation to help anybody who is in difficulties and who cannot afford legal assistance?

31.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in the event of a committee of investigation under the Agricultural Marketing Acts finding that a complaint against the conduct of a Marketing Board is justified, there is any provision whereby the committee or the Minister may order the Board to pay to the complainant compensation for any damage he may have sustained or the costs of presenting his complaint before the committee; and, if not, will he take steps to amend the regulations accordingly.

I am not aware of any such provision, and I have no power to amend the regulations in the manner suggested.

Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman take steps in this matter also?

I cannot give a definite undertaking as to what can be done, but I will say that, in view of what has happened in this case, I will consider the whole of this situation.

Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman consider putting the hon. and learned Member for Argyll (Mr. Macquisten) on the committee of investigation?

Sea-Fish Commission

32.

asked the Minister of Agriculture what was the total cost of the Sea-Fish Commission for its first year of operation, showing salaries, separately, and when its first report will be published.

As the reply contains a number of figures, I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate it in the Official Report.

Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the answer to the last part of this question cannot contain anything statistical, and, therefore, will he give me an answer to that?

Certainly. The Commission's report reached my Department yesterday and will be published as soon as possible.

Following is the remainder of the reply:

The total net expenditure of the White Fish Commission for the period nth July, 1938, to 10th July, 1939, inclusive, was £2,092, made up as follows: —

£
Salaries10,535
Travelling and miscellaneous expenses784
Total 11,319
Less receipts from registration fees9,227
Net Cost 2,092

House Of Commons (Refreshment Department Staff)

33.

asked the hon. Member for Dulwich, as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, whether he has yet come to any decision as to which of the three alternatives for raising the £2,400 necessary to pay 70 per cent. of his staff full-pay he is going to adopt?

The advisability or method of raising the sum mentioned in the question has not yet been considered by the Kitchen Committee. I will inform the hon. and gallant Member as soon as a decision has been made.

Is my hon. Friend aware that I sent a letter to Members of this House the answers to which have not yet been received, and that, therefore, instead of raising this question to-day, I will ask the hon. Member's agreement to postpone it till a later date, when we shall have got fuller facts?

Is it not a fact that already all employés of the Kitchen Department receive three weeks' holiday in the year on full pay, and that in addition 30 per cent. of all the employés receive an additional three months' holiday on half pay?

34.

asked the hon. Member for Dulwich, as Chair, man of the Kitchen Committee, what would be the cost of agreeing to take on the 70 per cent. of the staff who normally would be dismissed this week for two months until the House reassembles in October; and whether he will do this so as to enable his Committee to consider final measures after the House reassembles.

The cost of paying full wages to 70 per cent. of the kitchen staff, referred to in the Question, until the House reassembles in October would be £1,200. The Kitchen Committee have unanimously decided that this payment cannot be made.

Have any payments been made to the relatives of the two unfortunate people whose deaths have been reported?

Sea Fish Industry Act (Accounts)

38.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that in some fishing ports dissatisfaction with the method of inspecting settling accounts has not been removed by steps hitherto taken under the Sea Fish Industry Act; what steps have been taken to implement the specific assurances given by Ministers during the passage of that Act, that the staff of superintendents and staff to strengthen supervision would be increased; and, if not, when these assurances will be acted upon?

No, Sir. I have received no complaints, and special reports called for from the Board of Trade superintendents at the end of March last indicated that the arrangements as to settling accounts under the Sea Fish Industry Act were working well. The staff at Grimsby was increased; and the question of staff at other important fishing ports is under review.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that 12 months have now passed since the assurance was given that the staff would be increased, and can he say how much longer that question will be under review before the staff is increased?

I do not think any assurance was given that the staff would be increased, if no necessity for it was shown.

Would the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to look at the report of the discussion on the Bill, and then he will find that the necessity for an increase was then admitted and has not since been acted upon?

I can only say that I have had no complaints, and therefore, prima facie it would appear that the existing arrangements are working well.

Non-Graduate Teachers, Scotland

39.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many meetings have taken place of the National Joint Council representatives of teachers and education authorities; and whether consideration has been given to the need for placing non-graduate teachers on the graduate scale in future after a definite period of service?

I am informed that the National Joint Council have held two meetings, and that they have not, so far, considered the matter to which the hon. Member refers.

Will the Minister draw the attention of the Council to the importance of this question and the great injustice that these non-graduate teachers are suffering?

I think my right hon. Friend said in reply to a previous question that he is not prepared to instruct the National Joint Council on what matters they should consider, but if the hon. Member wishes, I will undertake to see that this Question and Answer are brought to their notice.

Refugees

41.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Government of Trinidad is willing to admit refugees and under what conditions; and whether they have granted the request of the Zurich Church Committee for Refugees to be permitted to send to Trinidad 15 to 20 Christian refugees aged 25 to 50, selected as having special experience in industries suitable to the Colony and submitted for approval to the British Consul-General at Zurich?

Up to the beginning of this year Trinidad had already admitted some 500 refugees. The position regarding both employment and accommodation for refugees then became serious, and therefore the admission of alien refugees into Trinidad was prohibited except with the special permission of the Governor. I have no information regarding the latter part of the question, but am making inquiries.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider whether the application for this particular group can be considered in view of the fact that they appear to be specially carefully selected?

I am making inquiries and I will communicate with the hon. Lady when I see the information.

42.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has yet been able to make any arrangements for the disposal of the 700 refugees from Czechoslovakia now in quarantine in Beirut, and for whom he has been asked to find an asylum in Palestine, Cyprus, or some British Colony?

It is clear that these refugees embarked on one of the vessels attempting to land illegal immigrants in Palestine. I regret that the difficulties in the way of giving so large a number of unselected immigrants an asylum in a British Colony are very great. Amongst the considerations which have to be kept in mind are the opinions on the matter of the existing inhabitants of these territories.

Is it not the case that very great anxiety is expressed that something should be done, and has the right hon. Gentleman taken into consideration that the country from which these refugees come is one to which His Majesty's Government has acknowledged particular obligations, and that their plight arises directly out of the events of last March?

We have taken all considerations into account and we are doing everything we can to facilitate the regulated settlement of refugees in different parts of the British Empire, but we cannot accept any responsibility for refugees who do not come within the regulated scheme.

Colonial And Middle Eastern Services

43.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, how the estimated sum of £4,380,000, which represents the total amount of financial grants made to Colonial and Middle Eastern Services for 1938, is made up?

The figures quoted in the answer given to the hon. Member on 26th July, represented the total provision made in the original and supplementary Estimates for the Colonial and Middle Eastern Services Vote for the year 1938-9, as indicated on page 7 of House of Commons paper No. 45, of 1939, less the savings and miscellaneous receipts which are expected to be realised. The savings and receipts which are, in fact, realised will, of course, be shown in due course in the Appropriation Accounts for the year 1938-9.

Civil Defence (Surbiton Borough Council Employes

44.

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is aware that the Surbiton Borough Council are compelling their employés to do air-raid precautions work in their spare time without pay; whether this action has been taken with his knowledge and approval; and whether he will represent to the local authorities that the success of this work must largely depend upon willing volunteers.

My Department had no previous knowledge of the matter which appears to have given rise to the hon. Member's Question, but I have now seen a copy of a circular issued by the Surbiton Borough Council to their employeės which may possibly be open to misconstruction in failing to make sufficiently clear a distinction that must be drawn between employés in whom knowledge of Civil Defence matters is essential for the efficient discharge of the duties for which they are paid and other employés who have no obligations other than those that they may assume voluntarily. I am making further inquiries.

Will the right hon. Gentleman go further than making inquiries? Will he ask for the withdrawal of the circular and the issue of one that is strictly in accordance with the spirit in which he is endeavouring to administer the service?

As the House knows, the Government rely entirely on the voluntary principle in the recruiting and training of civil personnel, and on my present information I have no evidence that this Council has made any attempt at an inroad into that principle. I am not sure at the moment of the actual facts, and in the circumstances I do not want to commit myself to a more definite statement. If I come to the conclusion, after getting further information, that something has gone wrong, I will certainly do my best to put it right.

The right hon. Gentleman will take steps to see that any misleading circular is withdrawn?

General Election

45.

asked the Prime Minister, whether he will introduce legislation to make it possible if war broke out during the progress of a General Election for the election to be suspended and postponed and the old Parliament recalled.

The Government have not overlooked this matter, but they do not at present see any necessity for the introduction of legislation.

Will the Prime Minister now give us the date of the General Election?

Is the Prime Minister not aware that the Government has no statutory authority for taking the steps mentioned in my Question, and that as the Act of 1797 applies only to the demise of the Crown special legislation would be necessary?

Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is the war or the general election that is troubling the hon. Member?

Will the Prime Minister consider the possibility of introducing some legislation which will enable the old Parliament to be still in being until the new Parliament is actually elected?

May we take it that the Prime Minister will not do anything in this matter which will give him an unfair advantage over his political opponents?

Message From The Lords

That they have agreed to, —

Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill, without Amendment.

Amendments to—

London Gas Undertakings (Regulations) Bill [ Lords'], without Amendment.

New Member Sworn

William Frederick Jackson, Esquire, for the County of Brecon and Radnor.

Water Undertakings Bill

[ Lords].

Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday, 3rd October, and to be printed. [Bill 226..]

Adjournment (Summer)

Far East (Situation)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn." — [ Captain Margesson.]

11.44 a-m.

I desire to raise the questions of the present conflict in the Far East between Japan and China, the negotiations which are now proceeding in Tokyo and the action which His Majesty's Government ought or ought not to take to deal with the present grave situation. For two years there has been war in China, aggressive war, with the conquest of China as its avowed objective, which violates, as the Government admit, the Kellogg Pact, the Covenant of the League of Nations and the Nine- Power Treaty, of all of which Great Britain is a signatory Power. That war has been ruthless from the outset. It has been the most savage and the most law less conflict since Grotius wrote "The Law of War and Peace" 300 years ago. The good name of Japan has been stained by acts of shameless cruelty and carnage which history will not forget, and it has involved a sum of human suffering before which the imagination reels. That aggression has been accompanied from the outset by an unbroken succession of outrages against British and other foreign residents in China. The hon. Member for Kidderminster (Sir J. Wardlaw-Milne) said the other day that the American State Department

Royal Assent

Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.

The House went; and, having returned, Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to:

  • 1. Appropriation Act, 1939.
  • 2. Isle of Man (Customs) Act, 1939.
  • 3. Cotton Industry (Reorganisation) Act, 1939.
  • 4. Building Societies Act, 1939.
  • 5. Riding Establishments Act, 1939.
  • 6. War Risks Insurance Act, 1939.
  • 7. Public Health (Coal Mine Refuse)Act, 1939.
  • 8. Air Ministry (Heston and Kenley Aerodromes Extension) Act, 1939-
  • 9. Senior Public Elementary Schools (Liverpool) Act, 1939.
  • 10. British Overseas Airways Act, 1939.
  • 11. Aberdeen Harbour (Superannuation) Order Confirmation Act, 1939.
  • 12. Dunbartonshire County Council (Kirkintilloch Street Improvement) Order Confirmation Act, 1939-
  • 13. Lanarkshire County Council Order Confirmation Act, 1939.
  • 14. Motherwell and Wishaw Electricity, &, Order Confirmation Act, 1939.
  • 15. Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Bethesda) Act, 1939-
  • 16. Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Bradford) Act, 1939-
  • 17. Metropolitan Water Board Act,1939-
  • 18. London Building Acts (Amendment) Act, 1939.
  • 19. West Gloucestershire Water Act,1939-
  • 20. London Gas Undertakings (Regulations) Act, 1939.
  • 21. London County Council (General Powers) Act, 1939.
  • 22. London County Council (Improvements) Act, 1939.
  • 23. Folkestone Water Act, 1939.
  • 24. Sheffield Corporation Act, 1939.
  • Adjournment (Summer)

    Question again proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."

    11.59 a.m.

    I was saying that that aggression was accompanied by an unbroken succession of outrages against British and other foreign residents in China. Of course it is impossible to estimate the number, but the hon. Member for Kidderminster told us the other day that the United States Department of State have calculated that there have been at least 600 such outrages against American citizens. If that is so, the outrages against British citizens must run into thousands. I do not want to dilate on them at any length; everyone remembers what they were, from the deliberate machine-gunning of our Ambassador to the kidnapping and long detention of the military attaché, Colonel Spear, the brutal murder of Mr. Tinkler, and the long series of insults and humiliations by stripping, personal violence and in other ways during the recent months in Tientsin. These events have been detrimental to British interests in many ways. The war itself, the fact of the aggression, has struck another blow at the structure of international law and at the new post-War pacts against war, which, on any right consideration, are the most vital of all British interests.

    The outrages against our fellow-countrymen in China show very plainly that the militarists of Tokyo are pursuing the policy of the Tanaka Memorandum, and that their main objective is to drive all Westerners from Asia. In recent weeks they have shown us that they mean now, before the driving out of Westerners is complete, by using all the violence they dare, to compel us to become their actual accomplices in their aggression on China. That is the background against which His Majesty's Government began their negotiations over Tientsin. It is the background against which we must consider what we call the Tokyo formula, which the Government have now accepted; it is the background against which we must consider the demands which the Japanese have made and which are now being discussed.

    I do not disguise the fact that from the very outset we have regarded the present negotiations with some anxiety. That anxiety is not caused only by the fact that, on the day when the Japanese blockade began, Dr. Goebbels told us that it was going to be the Munich of the East. It was caused still more by the resemblance of these negotiations to those which produced the Italian Treaty a year ago. Last year, Italy was doing propaganda against us; she was making trouble for us in Palestine; she was massing troops in Libya as a menace to Egypt; she was intervening on an extensive scale in Spain. Then we asked her what she wanted from us, what she would take to stop this illegal course of provocation; and what she wanted in fact was recognition of aggression and its results in various forms. We gave it. I am not saying whether it was right or wrong, but we recognised her sovereignty over unconquered Abyssinia, we agreed to various formulas which were used later to justify and legitimise her war on the constitutional government of Spain. She took all that we gave her; she gathered in all the prestige of our capitulation over Abyssinia; and she gave us just exactly nothing in return. The war against the Spanish Government went on; the trouble in Palestine got worse; the troops in Libya were increased in numbers; beyond what they had been before. To-day there is hardly a clause in the Italian Agreement which has not been torn to rags.

    We are faced with the same situation by the Japanese. They, too, are attempting what a noble Member of this House once called blackmail. They have used illegal violence and provocation against British interests and British rights. We have asked them now what they will take to stop. They tell us, or they go as near to telling us as they dare, that they want our recognition for the legitimacy of their war in China. And so, when we say that we will negotiate about their demands at Tientsin, they ask us first to discuss what they call the background. We do so. We give them the formula drawn up in Tokyo ten days ago. I know that the Government have categorically denied that that means any change of policy of any kind. I know they have assured us that it affects in nothing the rights of China in international law. I am very glad of those assurances, and thank the Prime Minister for having given them, but I ask him for one moment to look at the formula, to consider its terms, and to consider how it has been interpreted and how it has been received. It lays down — and this is really the only point in the formula — that His Majesty's Government
    " fully recognise the actual situation in China"
    and note that
    " the Japanese forces in China have special requirements for the purpose of safeguarding their own security and maintaining public order in regions under their control."
    I ask hon. Members to consider the words "special requirements". The "Times" correspondent in Tokyo, in a message the other day, said that the task of the conference was to meet the Japanese Army's "legitimate requirements." I know how "Times" correspondents do their work. I have had, as an official, to deal with them for many years. I think it is very unlikely that the "Times" correspondent would use the word "legitimate" as a gloss on the word "special" unless he had heard someone do so before. I think that gloss has much importance, because, unless the word "special" means "legitimate," it means nothing at all. The Japanese Army have no legitimate requirements in China; they have no right to be there.

    I submit that, whatever the Government desire, the mere fact of the formula having been drawn up means a quasi-recognition of the Japanese invasion. That is why it was interpreted in Chungking as a disaster; that is why the British Chamber of Commerce in Shanghai said it was likely to result in a deplorable betrayal of British rights, obligations and interests in China; that is why it was received with anxiety, if not with actual dismay, in the United States. That is why the Japanese Prime Minister said that it would be a big shock to the Chungking Government, and would be "a favourable factor in disposing of the China incident." I know that the Prime Minister has repudiated what the Japanese Prime Minister said: that, in fact, we must help the Japanese to conquer China if we want peace; but I submit that the formula is, and cannot but be, open to this interpretation.

    What has happened as a result of our giving this formula? The Japanese Government have used it immediately as a starting point for further far-reaching and in-acceptable demands. First, they have asked for what they called the neutrality of the British Settlements and Concessions. No one wants the Settlements and Concessions to be the centres of war, but I remember that in 1932, and again in 1937, when the Chinese had halted the Japanese invasion at Shanghai, the Japanese used the International Settlement to land troops, stores, guns and munitions, under the protection of foreign ships, and the Chinese could not enter to repel them. They used that landing to take the Chinese armies in the rear. The Chinese have not forgotten that, on those occasions, we did nothing to uphold the neutrality of the Settlement. The Japanese say that, to ensure neutrality, they must have a system of joint police control. I view that suggestion with grave misgivings if the Japanese police are to behave there as elsewhere and if their admitted function is to hunt and per- secute Chinese citizens who are loyal to their own Government at Chungking.

    Still more important is the Japanese demand for the handing over of the four Chinese who, they allege, murdered another Chinese at Tientsin a few months ago. This is a matter of the very highest moral and political importance, and I hope the Government will tell us, not only that they have not yet decided, but that they will not decide, to hand over these men. The Japanese, as far as I am aware, have failed to produce any evidence of these men's guilt. If the Japanese had such evidence, I am sure it would have been published far and wide. As the Under-Secretary said the other day, in answer to a Question, there are no Japanese courts with legitimate jurisdiction in invaded China. If these men were handed over to the puppet courts that have been set up in China, that would be a recognition of the fake regime which the Japanese have set up. The only courts that could try them legitimately are the Chinese courts at Chungking.

    If we hand them over to the Japanese they will, no doubt, be tortured into confession, and then killed. I have here a letter from a British lawyer, Mr. Gads by, who practised for 28 years in Tokyo in the Japanese courts. He tells me that nearly every man accused in Japan confesses to the police or the procurator in the course of his preliminary examination. It is a matter of public knowledge that torture is used, and sometimes a man dies under torture. When it is known that prisoners have been tortured, the Tokyo Bar in a good many cases turn out in force to defend them, and in such cases the courts usually decide that there has been irregular conduct on the part of the police and disallow the confessions. I suggest that to hand these men over to the police would be disastrous to the British name in Asia, in India, and in Africa. It is one of our proudest boasts that we have stood for the sanctity of legal justice, and to hand over these men would strike a mortal blow at our reputation among the Chinese people, and would be regarded as an act of shame in the United States. I beg the Prime Minister to tell us that we are not going to hand over these men, as helpless pawns in our diplomatic game to a fearful death.

    The Japanese have demanded that we should give them the £ 800,000 of silver now lying in the Chinese Government banks at Tientsin. They have tried to make a quasi-legal claim. They have said that the silver belonged to the Northern Political Council, and that that Council has ceased to exist and has been replaced by the new regime at Peiping. That argument is utter rubbish. The Northern Political Council was established under the laws of the Central Chinese Government at Nanking. Its members were appointed by Nanking. The silver was and is the property of the Central Government of China. It cannot be given to the puppet regime without recognising that regime de jure as the legitimate Government of invaded China. The Government simply cannot do such a thing. It would be complicity and robbery which any British court would inevitably condemn, and I hope and trust that the right hon. Gentleman will give us an assurance on that point. Much more important, the Japanese Government have demanded that we shall prohibit the use of the Chinese dollar at Tientsin and shall compel everybody, foreign and Chinese, to use the worthless Federal Reserve Bank notes which they have issued instead.

    This is a really fundamental issue in the present negotiations with Tokyo. I venture to believe that if the Japanese demand is not accepted the Japanese will break off the negotiations very soon. I am glad to think that I have some confidence that the Government will tell us that they will not accept this demand either before or after consultation with other Powers. I do not see how they possibly could accept it. For one thing the legal argument which I have already put forward seems to me quite decisive. They cannot forbid the Chinese dollar or accept the Federal Reserve Bank notes without according de jure recognition to the Japanese regime in the invaded areas of China. It would be utterly inconsistent with the policy stated in the Government note of 14th January, which the Undersecretary reaffirmed the 'other day — a policy of upholding the Nine-Power Treaty and of ensuring the political, cultural and economic integrity and independence of the Chinese State.

    I hope that on that ground alone the demand that we shall forbid the Chinese dollar in Tientsin will be promptly, finally and publicly rejected. Indeed I hope it will be rejected before our Debate to-day comes to an end. In truth, the legal aspect of this demand is much the least important. It is the economic and military purposes of the Japanese that we ought to keep in view. What do the Japanese hope for if they succeed in making us do what they desire? They hope to secure, first, a greater share than they already have in the import and export trade of China, in that way working not only towards their dream of monopoly of foreign trade at our expense but also adding greatly to their strength in the conduct of the war. They hope to strike a blow, as undoubtedly they would, at the stability of the Chinese dollar in the rest of China. They hope to defeat our efforts to maintain the stability of the dollar and in so doing to make it harder for China to secure munitions and other assistance from abroad. But above all — and this is really the point I want the Prime Minister to consider — they hope to destroy the guerilla movement in the vast areas which they have nominally occupied but which they do not in reality control.

    There is a real sense in which the Japanese are right when they say that the currency question has a connection with public order in invaded China. It is common knowledge that the Chinese peasants have vigorously and consistently refused to touch the bogus Japanese currency in the invaded areas. It is common knowledge that it is with Chinese Government dollars that the guerillas have purchased their foodstuffs and kept their bands alive. The guerilla movement has become the most important single factor in the Chinese war. By the action of guerillas the proportion of Chinese losses has been reduced from 10 Chinese to one Japanese, as it was in the first year of the war, to one Chinese for one Japanese; in other words, equality of losses, at the present time.

    The Prime Minister expresses a doubt. Perhaps it is an exaggeration, but I have been in touch with some impartial authorities who have examined the matter.

    I should have thought it was a subject on which it would be extremely difficult to get reliable information.

    I have endeavoured to consult authorities in close touch with the situation. It is true at any rate that the proportion of Chinese losses has been enormously reduced by the guerilla movement. I do not think the Prime Minister will deny that the Japanese know that their only hope is to destroy the guerilla movement, and incomparably the most effective weapon they could have would be to destroy the Chinese peasants' faith in the Chinese dollar. It follows that if we lend ourselves to any plan which helps towards that end we shall not only be infringing the legal rights of China "but helping Japan to increase her economic strength at the expense of China and ourselves, and we shall actually be intervening in the war against the Chinese people in the most effective way.

    I think I have shown that we view with anxiety these negotiations with Tokyo and the demands which the Japanese have put forward. They have led us to the acceptance of a formula which we think is open to objection in spite of all that the Government have said to restrict its meaning. The formula has led us to a series of unacceptable demands which I cannot think the Government will fail to reject. Then what happens? When we do not immediately accept these demands the Japanese continue with the methods of blackmail. They have increased their pressure, since the negotiations began, in almost every way. It is about two months since we first began informally to discuss the matter, and in those two months the Japanese have not only maintained an illegal and monstrous blockade at Tientsin but — the Prime Minister will correct me if I am wrong, but I think I am right — they have virtually blockaded Kulangsu, occupied Swatow, virtually closed the treaty ports of Foochow and Wenchow, closed the Pearl River, thus virtually blockading Shameen, and they have begun measures to cut off the foodstuffs from Hong Kong. On the 25th July the "Times" reported that they were beginning to operate an undeclared partial blockade of Hong Kong. They were mining waters in some of the adjacent ports and they were intercepting cargo junks. They were bombing the railway and bombing the roads around the border. The "Telegraph" told us the next day that they had wiped out a complete fleet of 400 junks and that of 1,000 men and women only a few had survived.

    All these measures are designed to make food scarce at Hong Kong, and food prices have been rising. At Tientsin the Japanese commander cynically declared on 26th July that the traffic restrictions, as he called them, would not be lifted until their objectives had been fully attained. As lately as this morning the "Times" states from Shanghai that the Japanese blockade has been visibly tightened at Tientsin. They have again curtailed the milk supply and once more are stopping vessels in the river, in spite of the danger of accidents. There are various other ways in which British citizens are being molested and being interfered with at other places. The Chinese are being intimidated in order to make them leave British employment. Two women were stripped, according to a newspaper report, at Kaifeng only two days ago, and according to the "Times" this morning violent anti-British posters have again been plastered all over Chefoo, adorned with gruesome pictures of skulls. The blackmailer is pursuing the methods which he thinks he has made to pay. All this is very damaging to our prestige, and prestige is important in the East. It means the power to govern without armed force. It is very damaging to our interests, but we are afraid that it may be worse than that. We are afraid that it may be damaging to the whole policy by which the Government are seeking to avoid a war. In our view the Government are being led — very unwillingly I quite recognise — to compromise the basic principle upon which our policy against aggression must be based.

    A week or two ago the Prime Minister was answering a question about the discussions of the background of the Tientsin question, and I ventured to ask him whether he would remind the Japanese that the real background of the matter lay in the fact that they were permitting aggression which was internationally condemned, and that if the aggression was ended every outstanding question between us could quite easily be solved, and the Prime Minister replied that he did not think that a very helpful suggestion. I think, with great respect, that that goes to the root of the matter. The Government declare that they are now trying to organise a Peace Front against aggression. But they cannot do it if, in the Far East, they virtually or by implication accept aggression, if they recognise as legitimate requirements the military needs which that aggression creates, and if they make concessions to that aggression of various kinds.

    I want to ask the Prime Minister why he thinks that so many of the nations which are to-day threatened with aggression hesitate to join the Peace Front so vigorously and demonstratively? Why do the Dutch of all people declare that they do not want the British guarantee? They have always stood for collective security at Geneva and have always accepted every plan. Why has American opinion swung back so powerfully to isolation? I believe that one of the factors — I do not put it higher than that — is the belief of the people of that country that for us aggression is still only aggression when we ourselves are openly menaced or attacked. I do not believe that our general policy against war can possibly succeed unless and until we recognise and declare that China to-day is part of the Peace Front and act upon it. I hope that the Prime Minister will recognise it here and now, and that he will tell us that the Government are going to make no more concessions to Japanese blackmail; that they mean to help China to repel aggression, as they promised to help her in the resolutions of the League of Nations; that they will not hand over the four Chinese to certain death; that they will refuse to give up the Japanese Government's silver; that they will support the Chinese dollar as they have done hitherto; and that they will urge — this is a practical suggestion for consideration — the French Government to pay over to China the credit for supporting the Chinese currency which the French Chamber has already voted, and they themselves will give another loan to China to support the currency if that should be required. I hope that they will tell us that they will expedite the present agreement for export credits to China and that they will give a considerable share of the new £ 60,000,000 to China if she should ask that that should be done. Above all, I hope that the Government will tell us that they are going to follow America's example and will abrogate our Trade Treaty with Japan.

    The "Financial Times" declared the other day on the front page that in the opinion of the best informed quarters in London the Japanese were virtually at the end of their supplies of gold and foreign exchange. Nobody will give them credit. They can only buy abroad the imports of oil and minerals and other vital raw requirements with their exports, and of their exports the British Commonwealth of Nations — this country, India, the Dominions and the Colonies — are taking now 41.3 per cent. The stoppage of our purchases alone would be a mortal blow to Japan, and I submit to the House and to the Prime Minister that it is utterly grotesque that, while we are spending countless millions to confront aggression over here, we are by our purchases of Japanese exports financing their aggression in the East. I hope no hon. Member will say that this is a wild and irresponsible programme of support for China. It is very largely supported, I understand, by the China Association in their remarkable analysis of the British interests in the East, reported in the "Times" to-day. I hope that no hon. Member would say that it would provoke a war. I know that there are high authorities in this House who scoff at the idea.

    It seems to me quite plain that Japan's general trade position, with her utterly disastrous military position in China, and, indeed, even her naval position, with her long and vulnerable lines of sea communications, make it impossible for her to risk another major war. If the Government would take this action which I have outlined, I believe that they would not only save China in her hour of need, and that they would not only do more to win American opinion for real co-operation than they could do in any other way, but they would strengthen their hand in their new policy of the Peace Front throughout the world. I would go further. The present chaos in which we live began in Manchuria eight years ago. It may well be that the next world war will begin with a clash in the Far East, but if we take this action it might be that, by courage instead of surrender, we should avert a European war.

    12.33 P.m.

    In the course of the Debate which took place so short a time ago as Monday last we discussed to some extent the situation in the Far East, and I do not know that since then anything has happened greatly to change that situation, so there is not very much for me to add to what was said then. The hon. Member who has just spoken, as we all know, holds his views very strongly on the subjects which he discusses, but perhaps, on the whole, the observations he has made to-day were less fire-eating than they have been on previous occasions. I have always found a difficulty in answering him, because he always appears to try to push the Government to go a little further in their statements, pledges and assurances than I think they ought to go, and it puts me in this position, that, in refusing to put my foot upon what seems to be unsound ground, I may seem to be willing to go less far than in fact I really am going. Therefore, while I am afraid that I cannot give complete satisfaction to the hon. Member by giving definite assurances on a number of items on which he spoke, it must not be assumed that I am seeking to minimise the Government's strong objection to many of the incidents in which the Japanese have been concerned in the course of the last few months in the Far East, I want the House to bear in mind that the situation for this country is particularly difficult.

    Sometimes I hear hon. Members ask why we do not do as the United States does. It is hardly necessary for me to point to the fundamental difference between the United States, with its isolation from Europe, and this country. Surely we must all the time, in the presence even of these insults and injuries which have been inflicted upon British subjects in China, remember what are the limits of what we can do at this particular time to help our people there. At the present moment we have not got in the Far East a Fleet superior to that of the Japanese. We have such a Fleet here, and in certain circumstances we might find it necessary to send the Fleet out there. I hope no one will think that it is absolutely out of the question for such circumstances to arise. I do not mean that as a threat but only as a warning. We would much rather settle our differences with the Japanese by discussion and negotiation, provided we can do so without sacrificing what we conceive to be fundamental considerations or principles, than do it by resort to force.

    There is another thing too, that we must remember, and I wonder sometimes whether hon. Members have it in mind. I think of all the lonely unprotected, defenceless British people scattered about in different parts of China. Even if we determined to-morrow that we were going to the last extremity we could not, perhaps, protect many of those people. I do feel that we have a duty to them, that we ought to bear that in mind and that we ought not, if we can avoid it, put them in greater peril than that in which they now stand.

    I want to pay a tribute to the British Ambassador in Tokyo who is carrying on negotiations at the present time with, it seems to me, great skill, great coolness and courage, under extremely difficult circumstances, and in climatic conditions which I am told are at this time of the year particularly trying. We have agreed to a formula which has been the subject of some animadversions by the hon. Member. He says that the formula is open to interpretations which he admits the British Government have refused to accept as being legitimate interpretations. Nevertheless, he says that the formula is open to these interpretations, and he criticises it on that ground.

    I said that in my view it is impossible to resist those interpretations, because unless the word "special" inquiry means legitimate inquiry it does not mean anything at all.

    If the hon. Member lends his authority to that interpretation, I am sorry that he does so. I do not think it does us any good. After all, it does not really so much matter what interpretation people put upon the words; the real question is, how are we in fact going to interpret it in practice. If the British Government say that we do not regard this formula as implying any change in our policy, which, in fact, has not changed, surely that is of much more importance than an alteration in the words of the formula, which has been arrived at after much difficulty and after hours of discussion on both sides. At any rate, this formula has enabled us to discuss the very acute situation in Tientsin. In some aspects and in some parts of the difficulties at Tientsin it does look as though we should not have any great difficulty in coming to an agreement with the Japanese. I say that deliberately, although the House will understand that it is no use coming to an agreement on one point if there are other points on which we cannot come to an agreement. The agreement must be an agreement on everything. It does show, however, that those who are conducting these negotiations in Tokyo are by no means so extreme or so unreasonable as we have found many of the Japanese in China itself.

    The hon. Member says that the Japanese are demanding joint police control in the Tientsin concession. I am not quite sure what he means by the Japanese in that connection, because, as he pointed out, there is not always complete unanimity between Tientsin and Tokyo. In case of doubt I think we must accept the Tokyo view. I can only say that the basis upon which our discussions in Tokyo have been proceeding on this subject of police control has not been on the basis of joint police control. They have been on the basis that the control should remain in the hands of the municipal council or its officers. The hon. Member also mentioned the case of the four men, and he asked me to give an assurance that in no circumstances will these four men be handed over.

    I should have expected the right hon. and gallant Gentleman to take that view. I do not call him a judicially minded person, if I may say so.

    It is not a question of being judicially minded. It is a question of national honour.

    I do not agree at all. On the contrary, I say that it is a question of evidence. If there is evidence that these men were actually concerned in the murder of Dr. Cheng, does the right hon. Gentleman say that it is a point of honour that we should not hand them over?

    The right hon. Gentleman has the right to raise that point. Our point all through has been that we cannot hand these men over unless we have evidence to show us that they were concerned in the murder. The Japanese have now submitted their evidence, and that is being examined. I am not going to pronounce on what the verdict may be. The evidence must be examined not by me, but by proper legal authorities. If the result of the examination were to be that the guilt of these men were established, or a prima facie case for the guilt of these man were established, then we should have no right to do anything else but hand them over.

    This is a very important matter. This is the murder of one Chinese by other Chinese. No Japanese courts in China have jurisdiction over Chinese, only over Japanese. To what court will these men be handed over?

    They would be handed over to the Chinese District Court which would deal with such a case. That is the authority to whom these men would be handed over, if they had to be. There are no Japanese courts except the consulate courts, and they only try Japanese, not Chinese.

    Are not these district courts under Japanese régime, and, therefore, to hand them over to these courts is to recognise their jurisdiction, and is a de jure recognition of the Japanese regime in China.

    I think the hon. Member is going too far. These courts have been in existence all the time and they are courts to whom people have been handed over not only by ourselves but by others for the last 20 months, and we cannot now suddenly put up a new story and say that we cannot recognise these courts.

    Does that mean that we have abandoned the principle of the earlier Tientsin negotiations in having the case submitted to a joint tribunal?

    We have said from the beginning that the evidence should be given to us by the Japanese on which they base their claim that these men should be handed over to them. They refused to give us that evidence, and it was then that we made the suggestion of a tribunal. Now they have given us this evidence and, therefore, that question no longer arises.

    Let me pass to other important questions which have been raised. There is the question of silver and currency. The difficulty there is that it is agreed that these discussions are to be local discussions, about the local situation in Tientsin, and if you take the matter literally these questions are Tientsin questions. The silver in question is in Tientsin, and the question that is raised about currency refers to the circulation of currency in Tientsin. In the view of the British Government we cannot deal with these questions in Tientsin without really dealing with the questions elsewhere than in Tientsin, in fact, throughout the whole of Northern China. Whatever you do about silver and currency it must affect a very much wider area than Tientsin, and it follows from that that it is not only the British Government which is concerned in these two points. We have made it perfectly clear to the Japanese Government that we are not prepared to settle with the Japanese alone these two questions of silver and currency, but that they can only be settled after consultation with other Governments who are as concerned as we are in the general question of the future position of silver and also of currency. They are closely allied.

    I am not going to lay down in the definite way which the hon. Member asked me what our attitude is going to be, consultations or no consultations. I do not think it is the proper way to begin consultations with any other country to say, "We have already taken our decision, and now we are going to consult you." If you are going to consult them you must reserve your decision; but I will go so far as to say this, that I do not take exception to what the hon. Member said as to the connection between the maintenance of the Chinese currency and the capacity of the Chinese to carry out a guerrilla warfare in northern China. I recognise that, behind this question of currency, which I agree with the hon. Member is probably in the minds of the Japanese the fundamental question in this matter, there is a much larger question, and that is the ability of the Chinese to carry on the warfare successfully.

    The hon. Member finished by saying that in his view the British Government should also declare that China is a part of the Peace Front, and that we should act upon that. I cannot understand what the hon. Member means by that. Does he mean that we should treat China like Rumania or Poland and guarantee her against aggression? Surely in using those words and in saying that we should treat China as part of the Peace Front, he is using words very loosely and without any clear idea in his mind, and certainly conveying no clear idea to the minds of others as to what exactly he has in mind. Perhaps the hon. Member will enlighten us.

    I have a clear idea that His Majesty's Government should make it plain again, as they have done on innumerable occasions at Geneva, that they accept the resolution passed there; that they regard China as the victim of a Covenant-breaking aggression which also violates the Nine-Power Treaty and the Kellogg Pact, and that they should take the measures which I outlined, the necessary concrete and practical measures, to give support to China at the present time, including a denunciation of our trade treaty with Japan, as the United States have done.

    We have not gone back on anything we have said before as to our position in regard to aggression or in regard to China, but there is nothing which is contained in any obligation we have undertaken which obliges us to denounce the trade treaty with Japan. Once again the hon. Member demands that we should denounce this trade treaty. If I say, "No, I will not give him that assurance," it may seem that I am determined that the trade treaty shall not be denounced. Do not let anybody put that interpretation upon my words, but do not let us confuse a denunciation of this treaty with the actual operation of the denunciation. Twelve months' notice has to be given by us, so that 12 months will have to elapse before any active operative effect could follow from such a denunciation. I am not saying that that is any reason why we should not denounce, but I am merely saying that no immediate effect would be produced. There is another point. The Treaty has been acceeded to by some of the Dominions, and any denunciation of the treaty would have considerable repercussions in the Dominions. It would really be outrageous on our part to shut our eyes to the effect it might have and do anything about denunciation without having first obtained the full confirmation and agreement of the Dominions concerned in the action we propose to take.

    We have been compelled by force of circumstances to undertake some very heavy liabilities and commitments in Europe. The effect of those commitments is that, if certain things were to happen, this country would have to go to war. It would be possible to undertake the same commitments in the Far East. I do not want to do that. This is a country whose resources it is very difficult to measure or to put a limit to. It is a rich country, a country inhabited by people of a determined and resolute spirit. But there are limits to what it would be prudent to undertake, and however much, therefore, our feelings may be exacerbated by things that are happening in the Far East—I can assure hon. Members that I fully share the most violent feelings that anyone could have on the subject; it makes my blood boil to hear and to read of some of the things that have been happening there—however much those emotions have been aroused in us, let us not forget the liabilities that we have already assumed or the position of our fellow-countrymen and women who are already on the spot.

    I do not think there is anything more that I can usefully say this morning. I have tried to give the House some sort of indication of the balance of considerations that we have to take account of in the Far East. We shall endeavour, in continuing the negotiations, to preserve to the utmost extent the principles which have hitherto governed our conduct there. We shall preserve to the utmost possible extent the interests and the fortunes of British subjects there. We shall endeavour to show patience and to exercise a reasonable moderation, recognising that behind all these outrageous things there may be some genuine suspicion on the part of the Japanese in China about our treatment of them. Above all, let us not forget that there may be even graver and nearer problems to be considered in the course of the next few months. We must conserve our forces to meet any emergency that might arise.

    12.59 P.m.

    Having had a good deal to do with the Japanese during the last 40 years, particularly during two of their wars, I venture to address a few remarks to the House about the foreign situation in the Far East. In another place last night the Foreign Secretary said something to this effect, that it was for every responsible person to take a long view and look forward to the goal that we are striving to attain. I, therefore, intend to choose my words very carefully. I welcomed on Monday night the firm declaration that the Prime Minister made as to the policy that the Government intended to adopt in the Far East, and to the calm, statesmanlike statement he has just made as to the conflicting difficulties before him. I know so well from my long association with the Japanese that irresolution and weakness are bound to lead to further acts of aggression and may well bring about a situation so intolerable, as to make it impossible for our forces in the East not to use arms to defend our nationals. I submit that, if stronger action had been taken in the past, the risks that are now being run would never have arisen. I will give examples. After the Japanese, despite the protests of the authorities in the International Settlement, had made a victory march through the International Settlement—and British barbed wire was taken down to enable them to pass—they declared that they intended to march through the French Concession. When they found barbed wire, armoured cars and machine guns blocking the way, although they had actually announced the route that they proposed to take, they pretended that they never intended to enter the Concession.

    Again, a year or so ago the Japanese military authorities declared that they intended to arrest a Chinaman in the International Settlement. Brigadier Hop-wood, in command of the British troops, who had to make up his mind in a moment, said, "If you do so you will have to fight." The Japanese military authorities declared that there was some misunderstanding and nothing further was heard of' it. It is no secret in the Navy that young commanding officers on detached service with a full knowledge that their Admiral would back them up, have taken strong action which has brought the Japanese to their senses on many occasions. It is also well known in the Navy that the desire—a very natural one, in view of the situation at home—of the Government to have no untoward incidents in the Far East has hampered naval and military commanding officers, and not only hampered them and put them in humiliating positions, but made it very difficult for them to deal with the arrogant, ambitious military leaders who seem to be acting absolutely independently of the Government in Japan. I know the Japanese so well; they will not stand up to a firm front.

    Everyone who has spoken in the House about the indignities and insults that we are suffering from feels the same about it. It is almost impossible to speak temperately and calmly about the arrest of Colonel Spear, the stripping of men and women at Tientsin and the insolent behaviour of the Japanese generals at Tientsin in refusing to receive the British general commanding our troops in China. We are told that the aggressive demonstrations against us in China are organised by the military authorities, but the Japanese Government cannot escape responsibility for similar demonstrations in Tokyo. How can one expect to get any satisfaction from a government so lost to decency that it organises demonstrations outside the British Embassy while these talks are taking place?

    In the East, loss of face is a very serious matter, and the fact that these dreadful things have happened has lowered our prestige. That prestige could be speedily restored if we took the right course now. The Foreign Secretary said last night that we cannot be the policeman in the Far East. That is true, but there are sufficient ships in the Far East to send some to every place where our trade is threatened. If the admiral on the spot were given a free hand, I am confident that the British Navy by showing a bold front, would be able to give protection to our trade. But we want something more than t