House Of Commons
Thursday, 2nd May, 1940.
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
New Writ
For the Borough of Brighton, in the room of Major the Right Honourable George Clement Tryon, now Lord Tryon, called up to the House of Peers.—[ Mr. Munro.]
Private Business
Private Bill Petitions [ Lords] (Standing Orders not complied with),
Mr. Speaker laid upon the Table, Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the Petition for the following Bill, originating in the Lords, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, namely:
Saint Mary Magdalene Hospital (Newcastle-upon-Tyne) [ Lords].
Report referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.
COMMERCIAL GAS BILL [ LORDS] (BY ORDER),
Consideration, as amended, deferred till Tuesday next.
Oral Answers To Questions
Military Service
Colliery Timbermen's Assistants
1.
asked the Minister of Labour whether colliery timbermen's assistants are included in the schedule of reserved occupations; and, if not, will he consider including them in the schedule, as these men require considerable training and are deemed to be skilled workmen?
This matter is under consideration and a decision will be announced as soon as possible.
Taxi-Cab Drivers (London)
7.
asked the Minister of Labour whether, having regard to the need for maintaining a public taximeter-cab service, and the stringent tests required by the Metropolitan police to qualify for a taximeter-cab driver's licence, he will consider the inclusion in the schedule of reserved occupations of men above the age of 25 years holding a licence to drive a taximeter-cab within the Metropolitan police area?
As at present advised I do not think that it is necessary to do as my hon. Friend suggests.
Does my hon. Friend realise the great importance of these taxi-cab drivers being able to get their licences because they are in a category quite apart from any other drivers; and is he also aware that drivers of private omnibuses and other vehicles are exempt?
I am sure my hon. and gallant Friend will realise that there is a great demand for drivers of motor vehicles in the Services.
That is the very reason why we want taxi-cab drivers.
Unemployment
Benefit (Supplementary Allowance)
2.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that unemployed married men with families in the Abertillery Unemployment Assistance Board's area, receive no financial benefit from the recent 1s. per week increase made to children, because if the applicant or his son applies to the local office of the Unemployment Assistance Board for an allowance, that amount is reduced by an equivalent to the increase made in the case of children, with the result that no regard is had either for the increase in the cost of living or the object for which such an increase in dependants' benefit was made; and will he take action to see that unemployed people shall receive those advantages agreed to by Parliament?
I understand the hon. Member to refer to cases where an unemployment allowance is payable in sup- plementation of unemployment benefit. In such cases the unemployment benefit is brought up to a sum determined in accordance with the Board's regulations as revised in December last on account of the increase in the cost of living. It follows that the greater the sum received as benefit the smaller will be the amount payable by way of supplementation. I can see nothing in this which is inconsistent with the arrangements approved by Parliament.
Does not the hon. Gentleman appreciate the point of the latter part of my Question? Is it not perfectly clear that the advantages which, otherwise, would automatically accrue to a person in receipt of unemployment standard benefit are denied to him and that he gets no benefit as a result of the regulations passed in this House?
I think if the hon. Member studies my answer carefully he will see that that is not the case.
Assistance (Appeal Tribunals, Clerks)
5.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he will consider the advisability of appointing independent persons to act as clerks to the Unemployment Assistance Board appeal tribunals and Assistance Board tribunals?
These appointments are made by the Assistance Board. I am informed that the Board fully appreciate the necessity of safeguarding the independence of appeal tribunals appointed under the Unemployment Assistance Act, and have carefully considered the question of the clerks' status from this point of view. As, however, a clerk must, if he is to carry out his duties efficiently, be familiar with the general practice and procedure of unemployment assistance, they do not feel that any advantage would be secured by an alteration in the existing practice.
Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the clerk to the Unemployment Assistance Board tribunal being specially favourable to the Unemployment Assistance Board, his influence is always exercised to the disadvantage of the applicant; and does the hon. Gentleman not think that, as the Unemploy- ment Assistance Board is frequently involved in these cases the clerk to the appeal tribunal should be appointed independently, so that it would be a strictly impartial body for dealing with appeals?
I cannot accept the hon. Gentleman's premise. I think I have made it clear that this is a matter for the Board and not one in which the Minister has any power, but, as I have said, I will convey the hon. Gentleman's remarks to the Board.
Coal Industry (Wales)
8.
asked the Minister of Labour the number of coal miners in South Wales and Monmouthshire registered as unemployed?
At 11th March, 1940, there were 13,319 insured men, aged 18–64, recorded as unemployed in the coal-mining industry in South Wales and Monmouthshire. In association with representatives of employers and workpeople in the coal-mining industry, reviews of the unemployment register are being undertaken in a number of mining areas where there is an unsatisfied demand for labour, with the object of determining the extent to which men can be placed in mining employment.
May I ask whether the Minister intends to transfer any of the miners from South Wales to other parts of the British coalfields?
The hon. Member will be aware that there are powers to assist in providing the fares of men who are so transferred.
Is the Minister aware that there are many pits in South Wales closed at the present time—pits which could be opened and which would be sufficient to absorb all the unemployed labour there?
I think that is another question.
Will the Minister reply to my hon. Friend's Supplementary Question as to whether it is the intention of the Ministry of Labour to transfer any miners from South Wales to any other coalfield?
That also, I must point out, is another question.
Excelsior Philanthropic Society
20.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that the Excelsior Philanthropic Society, recently licensed, with its headquarters in London, whose operations were criticised in evidence before the Select Committee on Charitable Collections, is now extending its operations to the provinces; and whether he will take steps to confine its operations to the area which it covered prior to the granting of the licence?
According to my information this society was operating in provincial centres before any question arose of obtaining an authority under the House-to-House Collections Act. In any case the grant of an authority under that Act could not, I am advised, properly be used for the purpose of restricting the operations of those persons who may be authorised to make such collections.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this society is operating for the first time in the city of Manchester, and that it is regarded as a nuisance by the people there?
I will look into the matter.
Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why an institution of this kind which is not considered sufficiently respectable to be allowed to operate in the provinces, is considered good enough for London?
That was the point of my answer. It is considered to be good enough for London, and therefore its operations in the provinces are not to be restricted.
Licensed Premises, London (Exemption Orders)
21.
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the experiments which are being carried out in allowing greater freedom in London for the consumption of alcohol up to 2 a.m. in a limited number of approved establishments; whether this is intended to reduce the menace of the bottle party; and whether it is proposed to take steps to limit the number of bottle party undertakings which after that hour permit music and dancing and the consumption of alcohol on their premises without licence or control of any kind?
19.
asked the Home Secretary whether he will give an assurance that the proposal to allow a few licensed premises in London additional facilities for supplying alcohol up to 2 a.m. will not prevent him continuing to use all the means in his power to find a way of closing down premises which, under the name of bottle parties, are habitually used for providing entertainment and for the consumption of alcohol throughout the night?
24.
asked the Home Secretary whether it is with his approval that the police are proposing to grant permission to a certain number of restaurants in London to sell alcholic liquor up to 2 a.m. on many nights during the week, with the object of competing with bottle parties; what means it is proposed to adopt to ensure that these concessions are fairly distributed; and whether he will give an assurance that all licensed premises, whether they cater for the rich or poor, will be treated alike in this respect?
32.
asked the Home Secretary whether he will give an assurance that the extensions of licence recently grantedon an experimental basis by the Commissioner of Police to approved licensed premises in the West End of London do not constitute the only action which is to be taken to suppress the unrestricted supply and consumption of intoxicants in unlicensed premises used as bottle parties?
With the object of providing for members of the Forces on leave adequate facilities for entertainment in the late evening under proper conditions and at reasonable prices the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police decided with my approval to try the experiment of giving special orders of exemption to a few restaurants with suitable premises. One order of exemption was given for Saturday, 20th April, and two for Saturday, 27th April. The results of this experiment are now under consideration in consultation with the Service authorities. Action against bottle parties at which the law is broken continues to be taken by the police; but, as I informed the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Lipson) on 25th April, I have been making further inquiries about this aspect of the matter and I hope to be in a position to make a statement at an early date.
Will my right hon. Friend remember that taxi-cabs are necessary to take these officers there?
Are these special facilities offered only to travelling soldiers or are they available to London residents?
I think the facilities must, of necessity, be available to all who wish to take advantage of them.
Does not that mean that the right hon. Gentleman is covering up illegal bottle parties?
No, this has nothing to do with illegal bottle parties.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it about time the bottle parties were "bottled up"?
I have said I hope to be able to make a statement on that matter very soon.
Will my right hon. Friend also consider extending these facilities to areas other than the Central London area? In Kensington, for instance, the closing hour is 10 p.m.
The Commissioner is prepared to consider applications from any part.
Civil Defence
Camouflage
22.
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that imitative colouring, as used by artists in camouflaging canvas and by nature in camouflaging insects and other small animals, is ineffective on the larger scale with which war camouflage is concerned, and as biological research has established that to secure effective camouflage on the larger scale, use has to be made of certain other methods, what steps he proposes to take to ensure that expenditure on camouflage shall be subject to close supervision by someone of recognised authority in the specialised branch of biological science concerned?
As I informed my hon. Friend in reply to his Question on 18th April, I propose to reconstitute the Committee which advises my Department on camouflage problems. The contribution which biological science may be able to make to this form of defence has, and will continue to have, full attention. It is my intention that the views of the Advisory Committee shall be taken fully into account in the development of the camouflage work for which my Department is responsible.
Is it not a fact that there is a great amount of misguided enthusiasm on this matter in regard to London? Would the Home Secretary try to give, at an early date, some enlightened guidance on the subject?
I am quite sure there has been a good deal of misdirected unofficial efforts on this matter. As regards giving guidance, a booklet was issued by my Department some time ago as a result of scientific experiments.
Will that be brought up to date?
If it is not up to date it certainly will be.
23.
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the recognisability of large objects at a distance is conditioned by the intensity of illumination; that one of the chief methods of securing successful camouflage is the method of counter shading known as Thayer's principle; and what steps he is taking to use this method, which has not hitherto been done?
I can assure my hon. Friend that the principle to which he refers is well known to the camouflage officers of my Department and is used by them, wherever applicable, in their day-to-day work.
Is the Home Secretary aware that factory roofs are extremely conspicuous from the air owing to the fact that the ridges are brightly illuminated and the valleys between are dull. Is he aware that the very first step in scientific camouflage is to kill the high lights and brighten up the low lights, and why is this not done?
Why not do it in this House?
I am well aware of the principle to which my hon. Friend refers and I hope it will be applied in all suitable cases.
Munition Works And Dumps (Protection)
25.
asked the Home Secretary whether he will consider the erection of live wire fencing round munition works and dumps, with a view to protecting them from sabotage?
It would not be in the public interest to state in detail all the measures which are taken for the protection of places of this character, but I can assure my hon. Friend that all practicable steps are taken to ensure that they are adequately protected.
Is there any legal prohibition against the erection of live fencing, and, seeing that so many properties of the Service Departments have to be guarded by sentries, does he not think this method would be more efficient and less costly in giving protection?
I do not think I can go into the question of the law involved, in answer to a Parliamentary Question.
Personnel (Birmingham)
28.
asked the Home Secretary whether he will give, for the city of Birmingham, for the most recent convenient date, the numbers of paid and of unpaid Civil Defence workers, and the numbers of the vacancies in each of these categories?
I think it would be premature to give exact figures, as establishments in some of the services are at present in process of review, but I will send my hon. Friend such preliminary information as is available.
Voluntary Recruitment
29.
asked the Home Secretary whether he is satisfied that he can fill all non-paid vacancies in the Civil Defence services by voluntary recruitment and that this method will continue to suffice in the early future?
From all points of view it is essential that the Civil Defence services should be manned to the greatest possible extent by unpaid volunteers. I see no reason to doubt that the objective can be realised if local authorities will take energetic measures to bring home to the public the needs of services in which further unpaid workers are wanted and will arrange proper rotas so as to make the best use of the time which the part-time volunteers can give.
With reference to the recent appeal for 250,000 non-paid workers, is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a widespread feeling that an inadequate drive is being made at the moment to make the appeal a success? Would he consider whether more should not be done both through the wireless and the Press to make this appeal effective?
Yes, Sir, but I think my hon. Friend should bear in mind that the need varies greatly from place to place and that circumstances also vary. I am certain that the most effective kind of appeal is one made locally with due regard to local conditions.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that the paid A.R.P. personnel at Clacton-on-Sea was a sound investment?
I think the experience at Clacton-on-Sea has been very heartening from every point of view, and does great credit both to the paid and unpaid personnel.
Air-Raid And Fire Service Personnel (Military Service)
36.
asked the Home Secretary what steps have been taken to ensure that the calling up for National Service of members of the Auxiliary Fire Service and Air-Raid Precautions Staffs does not interfere with the efficiency of these services; and what is the present position with regard to the reserved age for persons in the Auxiliary Fire Service and Air-Raid Precautions Staff?
Arrangements have been made whereby local fire authorities may in certain cases apply for deferment of the calling up of men aged 25 to 27 years of age now serving as whole-time members of the Auxiliary Fire Service, to enable the authorities to recruit and train older men to replace them. The reserved age for whole-time members of the Auxiliary Fire Service is 30 years. As regards other A.R.P. Services, local authorities have been advised that with a view to securing stability new male entrants should generally be over 40 years of age or, in certain special cases particularly in the first-aid parties and rescue parties, not less than 35 years of age. There is at present no general reservation of men in the A.R.P. general services, but this matter is being kept under close review with particular reference to the requirements of the first-aid and rescue services.
What is the age limit at the other end? If a man is over 60 and apparently fit and well, can he give his services?
I believe that in some of the services there is no upper age limit.
Street Obstructions (Lighting)
38.
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the recent decision of Mr. Justice Cassels affecting the lighting of street obstructions, including those erected for air-raid precaution purposes; and what steps he proposes to take to enforce the lighting of these obstructions?
I have seen a short report of a recent judicial decision in a case where a taxi-cab collided with an un-lighted street refuge. This occurred on the first night of the "black-out" and presumably, therefore, before the local authorities had had time to make complete arrangements for lighting refuges as permitted by the Lighting Orders. The responsibility for taking measures where necessary to indicate the presence of obstructions placed by a local authority on a road rests upon that authority, and I have no reason to suppose that local authorities are not fully aware of their responsibiliity in the matter.
Has the right hon. Gentleman informed local authorities of their duty in this matter?
Yes, that has been made clear.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in Glasgow where there is tenement property, there are ob- structions on the streets without any lighting, and will he call the attention of the authorities to them and have something done about it?
I will certainly inquire into that, but in the case of obstructions on the pavement close to the walls and buildings, it has been found that the object desired is obtained by the use of white paint.
These obstructions are in the middle of the pavement and they cause inconvenience in working-class districts which are densely populated?
The hon. Member is referring to closes, and I will make inquiries.
Factory Inspectorate
27.
asked the Home Secretary whether the existing staff of His Majesty's Chief Inspector of Factories has been increased in order to cope with the increased work arising from the complicated regulations dealing with hours of work for women and young persons which have been brought into force since the outbreak of war?
Since the outbreak of war the authorised strength of the factory inspectorate has been increased, and new appointments have been and are about to be made. In considering further appointments, account must be taken of the rate at which new recruits can be absorbed without detriment to efficiency.
Do factory inspectors pay the same attention to Government factories as they do to privately-owned factories?
Yes, Sir, I think so.
Subversive Propaganda
30.
asked the Home Secretary whether, in considering action to be taken against subversive journals and organisations, he will include those likely to injure the cause of the Allies by their support of that cause in terms approximating to Nazi hatred and mendacity?
As the hon. Member will realise, any attempt to suppress statements which may be open to objection on the ground that the language used is inaccurate or immoderate would involve a very extensive interference with the liberty of the Press. As I previously indicated, what I am considering is a guarded and limited provision to enable action to be taken in serious cases of propaganda deliberately designed to impede the national war effort.
While appreciating the difficulties of the right hon. Gentleman and the statement he has made, can we take it that he would, in fact, deprecate any attempt to imitate in journals the Nazi hatred mendacity?
I think that is a matter of personal opinion.
Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind, if he considers action of this kind, the difficulty of distinguishing between the policy of a journal now, and its policy before the war? For instance, is he aware that there are some organisations which were bitterly denouncing Nazism before the war but have now become flatterers of Nazism?
Mr H G Cornish-Bowden
asked the Home Secretary whether he will inquire into the case of Mr. H. G. Cornish-Bowden, who was recently sentenced to three months' hard labour at the Mansion House, with a view to the remission of this sentence?
I understand that notice of appeal against conviction and sentence has been given in this case. It would not be proper for me to intervene in any way pending the hearing of the appeal.
Aliens
31.
asked the Home Secretary how many of the advisory committees for the consideration of the status of aliens have met; how many cases have been heard; and how many aliens have been interned as the result of orders by such advisory committees?
I am informed that all the committees have met except one where, owing to the illness of the chairman, the first meeting has been fixed for the 6th instant. The committees have heard some 650 cases and have so far recommended the internment of 32 persons.
Is my right hon. Friend quite satisfied that sufficient weight is being given to the evidence?
Yes, Sir, quite satisfied.
Are the sponsors called before these committees and are they cross-examined?
I answered that Question a few days ago.
Mr Charles Max Sabritz
34.
asked the Home Secretary what provisions exist for ensuring that persons of British nationality with pro-Nazi tendencies are interned in cases where that course is advisable in the national interest; and whether it is proposed, on the expiration of the short sentence which he recently received, to take any steps to intern, or otherwise restrict the activities of, Charles Max Sabritz, who has Nazi sympathies and, though born in England, has spent a large portion of his life in Germany, and whose father is German and now in Germany?
Defence Regulation 18b empowers me to order the internment of any person if I have reasonable cause to believe him to be of hostile origin or associations, or to have been recently concerned in acts prejudicial to the public safety or the defence of the realm, or in the preparation of instigation of such acts, and that by reason thereof it is necessary to exercise control over him. As regards the particular case mentioned, Sakritz was sentenced to a month's imprisonment on the 29th April last, and I propose to consider the question of making an order against him under Regulation 18b before the expiration of the sentence which he is at present serving.
Industrial Accidents
asked the Home Secretary whether he has any evidence to show whether accidents are on the increase in factories since the beginning of the emergency; and, if so, to what extent?
There has been some increase in the actual number of accidents since the war as compared with the corresponding period a year previously, but so far as can be judged from figures at present available it seems doubtful whether the increase is proportionately greater than the increase in the numbers employed coupled with the increased number of hours during which work is going on. This, of course, is no reason for relaxing efforts to reduce the accident rate; and the Factory Department are watching closely the trend of industrial accidents and will continue to take such steps as may appear appropriate for the promotion of safety.
Is not the increase largely due to the fact that new workers have been taken on and that they have not been used to the factories?
As I have said, there is no evidence of any proportionate increase.
Education
Private Schools (Inspection)
39.
asked the President of the Board of Education what educational qualifications as teachers are possessed by Mrs. Edith Sills and Miss Ruth Sills, who were fined £15 and £5, respectively, at Hailsham, on 24th April, 1940, for cruelty to a four-year-old pupil attending their private school at Wannock Avenue, Willingdon, Sussex; had they declared their school open to inspection, and, if so, by whom; had it been inspected, if so, when, and by whom; and what steps does he propose to take to prevent these persons, in their present building or elsewhere, from running a school?
I have no information as to the educational qualifications, if any, possessed by these persons. The school has not been declared open to inspection under Section 147 of the Education Act, 1921, either by the Board of Education or the local education authority. The circumstances disclosed in the Question are deplorable but, as the hon. Member is aware, the Board have no power to forbid the opening, or to order the closure, of private schools.
Will the Board, in view of this and similar cases which continually occur, give active consideration to bringing into effect the recommendations of the Departmental Committee on Private Schools?
I am aware of the recommendations of the Committee over which the hon. Member presided, and I look forward to the day when there is sufficient Parliamentary time and a common agreement to put them into full operation.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the report was an agreed report and that eight years have elapsed since it was signed? Could he make inquiries through the usual channels to see whether an agreed Measure could not be passed through, in view of the growth of these schools since evacuation?
I will take note of the hon. Gentleman's request.
Does not my hon. Friend think it would be useful if he made representations to the local authorities that they should make inquiries into these schools? Would not that draw attention to the fact that the Board regards this as a serious matter?
To do anything effective requires legislation.
Necessitous Children
40.
asked the President of the Board of Education the number of authorities where there exists the closest liaison between the education committees, the Unemployment Assistance Board, the public assistance committee and voluntary organisations referred to in Circular 1450, in regard to the provision of footwear for everyday use for necessitous children?
I am unable to give precise information as to the number of areas in which there exists the close liaison recommended in paragraph 10 of Circular 1450. While direct responsibility does not lie with the Board of Education I am most anxious to secure full co-operation in this matter and if the hon. Member has in mind any cases in which it is not working effectively I shall be glad to inquire into them.
Evacuation Areas
41.
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he can now give the promised information respecting education in evacuable areas?
As the answer contains a number of figures I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Evacuation Areas (Total Number 68). | ||||||
Position on 15th April, 1940. | ||||||
| (a) Compulsory School Attendance. | ||||||
| In 50 areas attendance is compulsory for all children of school age, in nine areas only for children of particular ages and in six areas only for certain districts or schools. In the remaining three areas attendance is not compulsory owing to special difficulties in those areas, which are now being overcome, in providing sufficient adequately protected school accommodation. | ||||||
| (b) Provision of educational facilities. | ||||||
| Particulars of the average weekly hours of instruction are not available, but the following tables show the number and percentage of children receiving instruction in Public Elementary Schools and Secondary Schools, its extent and the number and percentage of pupils receiving no instruction. | ||||||
Elementary Schools.
| ||||||
| — | Full-time instruction. | Half-time instruction. | Less than half-time instruction. | Home Service. | No instruction. | Total. |
| Number of children. | 657,345 | 397,058 | 8,524 | 120,250 | 115,044* | 1,298,221 |
| Percentage of Total. | 50·6 | 30·6 | 0·6 | 9·3 | 8·9 | 100 |
*This figure was 180,000 on 1st April, and should continue to diminish rapidly. Nearly half the children without instruction are in London, where all are expected to be in school in a fortnight. | ||||||
Secondary Schools.
| ||||||
| — | Full-time instruction. | Half-time instruction. | Less than half-time instruction. | Not at School. | Total. | |
| Number of children | … | 52,774 | 4,617 | 206 | 3,242 | 60,839* |
| Percentage of total | … | 86·8 | 7·6 | 0·3 | 5·3 | 100 |
*These figures do not include five areas in which some secondary schools were not reopened for the summer term by 15th April. | ||||||
Service Of Youth
42.
asked the President of the Board of Education what response local education authorities have made to Circular 1486 on the service of youth?
The response of local education authorities has been very encouraging, more especially in view of the extra calls made upon them by war-time conditions. Of the 146 authorities for higher education 128 have prepared schemes for youth committees, 13 have schemes under consideration, and only five have intimated their intention to defer action in the matter. The Department is in negotiation with these five
Do these figures and the information refer to the Question I put down three or four weeks ago?
They refer precisely to that Question.
Following is the answer:
authorities. The schemes submitted show a genuine co-operation between statutory and voluntary bodies.
How many authorities have schemes actually working?
I have information on this point and, if my hon. Friend wishes, I could give him more details but there are various degrees of progress and therefore I have put the information in this simpler form.
Could my hon. Friend give the names of the five authorities who refused to take action?
I could give them to my hon. Friend, but I am hoping that without giving such publicity we shall be able to secure action within the next few weeks.
Is not Hertfordshire one of the best of all authorities?
It is a very good authority.
Voluntary Hospitals (Rating)
44.
asked the Minister of Health whether the Government will take steps to introduce legislation forth with to abolish rating in connection with voluntary hospitals?
The answer is in the negative. Proposals of this kind have been considered on many occasions. There have been found to be strong objections to their adoption, and these objections are still valid.
Does my right hon. Friend realise that since the outbreak of war many voluntary hospitals have been placed in financial difficulties which they did not previously experience, and will he in the light of that give the matter further consideration and see whether assistance can be given?
I know the alteration in the circumstances of voluntary hospitals which has taken place during the war, not always to their disadvantage, and I am keeping the matter under close review.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in some cases rates have jumped up by 2s. and 2s. 6d. in the £?
Waste Material (Salvage)
45.
asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider delegating to a special Minister the task of organising a nation-wide collection of waste material which can be utilised to the advantage of the national economy, and of directing its treatment, as far as may be necessary, and distribution?
No, Sir. I do not think it is necessary to adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion. In this connection I would refer him to the recommendation made in paragraph 42 of the Second Report from the Select Committee on National Expenditure. That recommendation is now under consideration.
Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the present effort is having the result which all Members, together with my right hon. Friend, desire?
If my hon. Friend will look at the paragraph to which I drew his attention he will see that definite recommendations are made.
Ministers And Military Service
46.
asked the Prime Minister whether it is his intention to retain in the Government those Ministers who are under 40 years of age and are fit and eligible for military service?
Yes, Sir.
Could the right hon. Gentleman give the number of Ministers in the category referred to in the Question?
Perhaps the hon. Member will put that question down.
Agriculture
Land Drainage
49.
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in. connection with the Government assistance scheme for drainage for clearing farm ditches, he will circularise all county war agricultural executive committees, urging on them the necessity of immediately surveying and approving the land which is to be dealt with under this scheme, with a view to expediting the carrying out of this work?
I have already drawn the attention of county war agricultural executive committees to the grants available for work of clearing farm ditches and urged them to co-operate to the utmost of their power with drainage authorities in the preparation and supervision of suitable schemes.
Does my right hon. and gallant Friend realise that later on haymaking and harvest will take all the men, and that the only time to do this work is now and that delay is fatal? Is not this another example of doing too little and being too late?
No, we have drawn the attention of county committees to this matter and they have promised to co-operate with the drainage authorities. More than that we cannot do.
Will my right hon. and gallant Friend help me in my own case, as I am in great difficulty?
I am sorry to hear that my hon. Friend's ditches are in this condition.
The land is not mine. It is merely land which I have taken out of patriotism since the outbreak of war?
What steps will the Minister take where it is found that county committees are not doing their duty in regard to drainage?
Their powers are laid down and we exercise what persuasion we can.
54.
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that, in Westmorland, the War Agricultural Executive is more concerned about pleasing landowners than getting the land drained; and what steps he is taking to get the necessary work done?
The answer to the first part of the Question is in the negative. As regards the second part, I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply which I have to-day given to my hon. Friend the Member for Evesham (Mr. De la Bère).
Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman not aware that at the last meeting of the Westmorland Branch of the National Farmers' Union the secretary stated that the War Agricultural Executive were more concerned about the privileges of landowners than they were about draining land?
It does not necessarily follow that that is a statement of fact.
rose—
Mr. Jenkins.
On a point of Order. Since I am quoting a statement made by the secretary of a branch of the National Farmers' Union is the right hon. Gentleman correct in suggesting that he is not telling the truth?
It is a question of opinion.
Cereal Crops Output
50.
asked the Minister of Agriculture what was the average output per acre of wheat, oats and barley, respectively, for the season ended 1939, or nearest year?
The average yields of wheat, oats and barley in the United Kingdom in 1939 are estimated at 19·6, 16·5 and 17·6 cwt. per acre respectively.
Why was it given out that the ploughing up of 2,000,000 acres would produce 2,000,000 tons if from the existing acreage we get only 18 cwt. of wheat per acre?
There is not only the wheat; there are the barley and oats.
But you cannot grow more than 18 cwt. of grain on one acre.
Wheat Subsidy Payments
51.
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will arrange for the Wheat Commission to pay the wheat subsidy payments in full, seeing that the price is guaranteed, as the present instalment method tends to minimise the full benefit of these payments being realised?
Wheat deficiency payments for an accounting period are based on the average price realised for wheat sold in that period, and cannot therefore be computed until after the period has ended. Section 1 of the Agriculture (Miscellaneous War Provisions) Act, 1940, provides for the making of deficiency payments in respect of accounting periods less than a year, and final payments can now be made at an earlier date than hitherto. The first two accounting periods for the current cereal year were prescribed by the Act, and an Order was made recently ending the third accounting period on 31st March. The Wheat Commission hope to make final payments to registered growers on or about the 5th June, in respect of wheat sold up to 31st March.
While that is a very satisfactory solution for the present year, is there any reason why next year the full payment should not be made at the time of the sale, or very soon afterwards, seeing that the prices are now fixed, because it would help the farmer if he could get the cash then?
Oh, yes, keep the farmer going.
I appreciate the hon. Member's point, but we have to take an accounting period, and sales of seed wheat come in as well. We are trying to keep the accounting period as short as is reasonably possible.
Rats (Extermination)
52.
asked the Minister of Agriculture what are the figures in the Louth Rural District showing the number of rats killed since October, 1939?
I have no information as to the total number of rats killed in the Louth Rural District since October, 1939, but I understand from reports which have been brought to my notice that during the period 21st November, 1939, to 31st March, 1940, nearly 42,500 rats were destroyed in that district as a result of the system of paying rewards for rats' tails.
Does not my right hon. Friend consider that the success of this campaign in this local authority's area is due to their being allowed to pay for rats, and will he see that those payments are allowed to continue?
53.
asked the Minister of Agriculture what steps he is taking to forward the campaign against rats; and what are his future proposals for carrying on the campaign in rural and urban districts?
In reply to the first part of the Question, every effort is made to encourage and assist occupiers of lands and premises to fulfil their statutory obligations to keep their properties clear of rats. Literature published by the Ministry is available free, or at a very small charge, giving full particulars of the most effective methods of rat destruction. Many of these methods, and much general information about the depredations caused by rats, are illustrated in a cinematograph film, copies of which are available for loan free of charge to local authorities or other responsible bodies. In addition, the services of the Ministry's technical adviser on rat destruction are available where a local authority requires them in connection with any case presenting points of special difficulty.
As regards the second part of the Question, I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer given on 17th April to my hon. Friend the Member for Abingdon (Sir R. Glyn). The question of an intensive campaign during the present emergency in rural and urban districts is under consideration by the Ministry in consultation with other Government Departments concerned.As my right hon. Friend says that he has no knowledge of the number of rats killed in any area, how can he tell us whether the campaign is a success?
There is an obligation on occupiers to kill the rats and we hope they are carrying out their obligations.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of employing the old man and his dog? They will kill them all.
58.
asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to illness and death caused by Weils disease spread by rats in seaports; and what steps he is taking to counteract this?
I am aware that cases of Weil's disease occur from time to time, but the disease is not specially a feature of seaports. The dangers of this disease have been referred to in recent reports by my chief medical officer, and local authorities generally are aware of their powers and duties in connection with rat destruction. I do not, therefore, think it necessary to make any special recommendations in this matter at the present time.
Old Age Pensions
Birth Certificates
57.
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the application for a pension of Mrs. Mary Ann Jones, of 12, Staffordshire Row, Blaenavon, Monmouthshire, has been refused on the grounds that school records and age recorded at two marriages are more acceptable than a copy of the birth certificate which has been produced; and whether he proposes to take any action to grant the pension on the evidence of the birth certificate?
The age given in the school records and the two marriage certificates to which the hon. Member refers was supported by that given in the 1881 Census, and the cumulative evidence from these several sources was regarded as out-weighing that of the birth certificate produced. Mrs. Jones' appeal against the decision of my Department was dismissed by the referees, and their decision is final and conclusive, but I should be prepared to ask them to reconsider their decision if any new facts relating to the case are brought to my notice.
Is it not an extraordinary fact that the Ministry have refused to grant a pension on the evidence of the birth certificate, which has been produced? The Ministry have collected lots of other evidence which is not as important as the birth certificate and has no statutory importance.
As the hon. Member knows, the decision of the referees is final.
Is not the birth certificate the statutory requirement under the Act?
There has to be a consideration of all the evidence available.
I beg to give notice that in view of the unsatisfactory answer I shall raise the matter at the first opportunity.
Supplementary Allowance Claims
60.
asked the Minister of Health whether he will provide for the Old Age Pensioners' Association to have representation on the tribunals which are to be set up for the purpose of determining claims for supplementary allowance under the Old Age Pensions Act?
The Old Age and Widows' Pensions Act, 1940, provides that the appeal tribunals set up under the Unemployment Act, 1934, are to act for the purpose of dealing with appeals in relation to supplementary pensions. No fresh tribunals will, therefore, be set up and the constitution of the existing tribunals, as laid down in the Act of 1934, does not provide for the representation of the Association to which the hon. Member refers.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the question of old age pensions ought not to be the shuttlecock of party politics?
Is the right hon. Gentleman going to issue a public statement as to the procedure to be followed by applicants for supplementary pensions, and when will that be done?
A statement will be issued, but I cannot yet say at what date.
National Health Insurance (Dentists)
59.
asked the Minister of Health whether he has considered the scale of dental fees payable to the dental profession under the National Health Insurance Scheme; and whether, in considering the dentists' claim for an increase, owing to the war, will he give full weight to the fact that about one-half of the fees, including any increase, falls directly upon the pockets of the working men and women of this country who themselves are bearing their share of the added financial burden cast upon them by the war?
A claim has been put forward by dentists for an increase of the scale of charges for the treatment of insured persons entitled to dental benefit under the National Health Insurance scheme. This claim was addressed to the Dental Benefit Council as the body responsible for advising my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and myself in the matter, and is now under consideration by the Council. As soon as the views of the Council have been received the matter will have our attention and all relevant considerations, including that referred to by the hon. Member, will be taken into account.
Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that if he grants an increase to dentists, panel doctors and officials will want to follow suit?
All those considerations will be taken into account.
Armed Forces (Dependants, Medical Treatment)
61.
asked the Minister of Health whether he has yet considered the resolution of the insurance committee for the city of Birmingham that the dependants of men serving with His Majesty's Forces should be provided with medical attendance and treatment on a non-contributory basis; and what action he is prepared to take in this matter?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland to the hon. Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Garro Jones) in answer to a similar Question on 23rd April.
Widows' Pensions
62.
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that Mrs. F. A. Cossens, late of Hotel Verdun, Cheltenham, made application immediately after the death of her husband, in November, 1939, for a widow's pension and that she has had no reply except for formal acknowledgments; that she has a daughter 11 years of age and is entirely without means of support; and whether he will take steps to see that this, and similar, applications are dealt with promptly?
I find that an application for a widow's pension was first received in my Department from Mrs. Cossens on 19th December, 1939. This application was unsigned and uncertified and was, accordingly, sent back to her for completion. It was not returned to the Department until 6th February, 1940. The inquiries necessary to establish title to widow's pension and to an additional allowance in respect of an adopted child necessarily took some time, but I am glad to be able to inform the hon. Member that the documents necessary to enable Mrs. Cossens to obtain payment of the pension and allowance have now been issued. The hon. Member may rest assured that all possible steps are taken to avoid delay in arriving at a decision on application for pension.
While thanking my right hon. Friend for his reply, may I ask whether he is aware that the obvious reason for putting this Question was to get the matter expedited? Would it not be possible for this to be done without the intervention of a Member of Parliament?
I think that question is a little unfair. I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman found it necessary to put down a Parliamentary Question, because the effect of his intervention was to withdraw staff from their normal work and thus to delay the determination, not only of the particular application in which the hon. Member is interested, but also of the many thousands of other applications now before the Department.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that periods of delay as long as this are occurring in large numbers of cases all over the country?
Yes, Sir. I know that various delays are occurring, partly because of difficulties of which the hon. Gentleman is aware in relation to transfer of the office to a different part of the country, and partly to questions in connection with the new Act recently passed by this House. We are doing our utmost to catch up.
Civilian War Injuries (Compensation)
63.
asked the Minister of Pensions in how many cases he has refused requests for compensation to civilians suffering from nervous complaints, apart from physical injuries, caused by enemy action during the present emergency?
There is no record of any claims having so far been made under the Personal Injuries (Civilians) Scheme, 1939, in respect of nervous complaints, apart from physical injuries.
69.
asked the Minister of Pensions whether, in view of his appeal for voluntary air-raid precautions workers, he proposes to take steps to increase the compensation that will be paid in the event of their being killed or injured in the course of their service?
I would remind the hon. Member that a large majority of the Civil Defence personnel have always given their services voluntarily. I do not consider that any general increase in the rates of compensation, which apply both to paid and unpaid personnel, is called for by the circumstances referred to by the hon. Member.
Naval And Military Pensions And Grants
64.
asked the Minister of Pensions whether, having regard to the widespread discontent at the present position, he will consider granting a minimum pension of 5s. per week to the parents who were in receipt of allotments from the Service pay of their late sons, who have lost their lives as a result of service in His Majesty's Forces?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given by me to the Question from the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Glenvil Hall) on 25th April, of which I am sending him a copy.
65.
asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that the naval separation allowance for the wife of a serving able seaman is 17s. per week, but that when the able seaman is killed in action the widow is given a pension of 15s. 6d. if she is under 40 years of age and childless; and whether he will consider increasing the basic rate of pensions to naval widows whose husbands are killed on service, or introduce a gratuity payable to all widows, in order to make immediate provision for the immediate future?
I would point out that the pension is an annuity payable during the whole period of widowhood, and the amount is therefore naturally determined by reference to other considerations than apply to a temporary grant during the husband's service. Provision is made for a widow's immediate future by the payment by the Admiralty for a period of 13 weeks, both of her marriage allowance and also of an amount equal to the qualifying allotment which her husband must have declared in order to obtain such allowance. Further, an amount equivalent to any allotment by the widow's husband in excess of the qualifying allotment is also continued for the first four weeks of that period.
Will my hon. Friend give further consideration to the question of a gratuity on the death of a man, bearing in mind the relief it will afford to the bereaved widow when she has something with which to carry on?
I am always prepared to give full consideration to any suggestion made.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the great dissatisfaction throughout the country with the fact that, when a woman loses her husband, she and her dependants receive less than they received when the soldier was serving? What is the reason? Can there be any logic in it? Why, after her tragic loss of her husband, should she suffer a financial loss as well?
67.
asked the Minister of Pensions whether he can make any statement as to the Government's intention to raise the rates of disability pensions paid to Great War ex-service men to meet the rise in the cost of living?
I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer given by the Minister of Pensions in this House on 31st July, 1928, on the question of stabilisation of Great War pensions, a copy of which I am sending to him. It was then stated that, while the rates of those pensions would not be reduced, they would be liable to increase if the cost of living should ever exceed that of the year 1919, on which Great War pensions were fixed. That figure was 215 while the figure to-day is 178. The hon. Member will appreciate that there is at present no justification for increasing those rates.
May I ask my hon. Friend to bear in mind that this class of the community suffers a deprivation when the cost of living rises, that many of their sons are at the war and that they themselves, being disabled, cannot be employed at the higher rates which many other people are now receiving; and will he therefore give the matter further consideration?
68.
asked the Minister of Pensions whether he will amend the 1939 Royal Warrant so that it will not be more difficult for new ex-service men who claim that they are suffering from conditions attributable to, or aggravated by, war service to prove their case than it has been for Great War ex-service men under the 1919 Warrant; and whether he will provide independent tribunals to which the rejected claims of ex-service men for war pensions, etc., may be referred by way of appeal?
Both the matters referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend have been under discussion with my Statutory Advisory Committee, as a result of which I am at present considering the terms of the article of the Royal Warrant dealing with the first point. A general system of appeals to independent tribunals in war-time must, as I have explained to the House, present great difficulties of several kinds, but the Government will no doubt consider the question after the war, in the light of the conditions then prevailing. In the meantime, all appeals by rejected claimants are carefully considered, and, where suitable, referred to a panel of independent medical experts.
Will not the Minister agree to reconsider the last matter, in view of the fact that the person who is refused a pension has no appeal and no right to bring independent medical evidence before an independent body? Will not the Minister reconsider the matter now?
Such persons have a right of appeal to the Minister.
In particular reference to the independent medical appeal, which the Minister has suggested was possible, is it not a fact that those medical persons are paid by the Ministry? Will not the Minister consider, as an interim step, creating a really independent medical opinion?
The medical specialists are independent. They are nominated by the Royal College of Physicians or the Royal College of Surgeons. Although it is true that they are paid by the Ministry we have no power over these people at all and we never interfere with them.
India (Constitution)
70.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he has any statement to make respecting political developments in India, and in particular in regard to Mr. Gandhi's observations on the recent Debate on India in this House?
71.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he has official information that the Indian National Congress might be prepared to accept a smaller body than a constituent assembly, representing all parties, communities and interests, to frame the principles for the development of the Indian constitution; and whether His Majesty's Government are prepared to encourage the convening of such a body with the least possible delay?
I have no statement to make respecting political developments in India. I presume that, in the last part of his Question, the hon. Member for West Leyton (Mr. Sorensen) is referring to Mr. Gandhi's telegram to an English newspaper, in which he gave it as his personal opinion that the suggestion made in the course of the Debate to convene a committee of leaders to reach preliminary agreement was attractive, provided that the persons so convened were elected according to an acceptable procedure. I do not think I can usefully comment, beyond saying that the Governor-General and my Noble Friend the Secretary of State would welcome the coming together for discussion of persons capable of leading the public opinion of the various sections in India; and they are convinced that the chances of such a body producing results would diminish proportionately with increases in its numbers. The method of convening the members of such a body is obviously a question for the parties whom they represent.
Could not the Minister take the initiative and see whether the suggestion of a conference is acceptable or whether he could appoint some small body as suggested by the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Sir S. Reed).
If the idea of such a conference is likely to be acceptable to the different parties in India I am sure that the Viceroy would do what he could to help towards such a result.
National Finance
Limitation Of Dividends
72.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider giving relief to those West African gold mining companies registered in this country which, after spending large sums of money during the last few years on machinery and development in order to increase production, are now unable to reap the reward of their labours owing to the limitation of dividends; and whether he will also consider the case of those companies which have recently started production?
My hon. Friend is aware that the Bill will contain provision for the consideration of cases involving exceptional circumstances and I think that cases of the type referred to by my hon. Friend will best be dealt with, in the light of all the facts, under that machinery.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of these statutory companies do not pay and have never paid the maximum dividend allowed by Parliament?
73.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Budget proposal to limit dividends paid by public companies applies to statutory companies whose dividends are already limited by Act of Parliament?
The position of these companies is under consideration at the present time.
Tobacco Duty (Armed Forces, Orkneys)
74.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will arrange for members of the Services stationed in the Orkney Islands to purchase tobacco and cigarettes free of duty?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement which I made yesterday in the Debate on the Tobacco duties. I regret that it would not be practicable to make special concessions to troops stationed in particular parts of the United Kingdom.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there would be very small administrative difficulties in making concessions to this detached part of the Isles? As the men stationed there are suffering very great hardship and are in a very dangerous area, cannot he see his way to give a concession of this kind?
One could not draw a distinction between one portion of the United Kingdom and another.
Post Office Workers (Cost Of Living)
76.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any of the revenue derived from increased postal and telephone charges will be made available for improving the wage rates of the lower-paid employés of the Post Office?
The question of granting some increase in the wage rates of the lower-paid grades of civil servants, including employés of the Post Office, is now under discussion with the staff side of the National Whitley Council.
Will the right hon. Gentleman do what he can to facilitate a decision in this matter, as hundreds of the lower-paid workers such as linemen, porters and night telephonists, are living nearly on the poverty line? Many of them are ex-service men.
The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that discussion is still going on.
79.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has considered the protest from the Union of Post Office Workers against the further increase in railway fares as adding an increase to the cost of living of thousands of lowly-paid Government servants; and whether, to meet such increase, he will increase wages to safeguard the workers' standard of life as the interests of railway shareholders are protected?
I have considered this with other representations made to me on the question of cost-of-living increases for civil servants. A claim from the staff side of the National Whitley Council on behalf of the lower-paid grades of civil servants is now under discussion with the official side of the council.
Non-Ferrous Metals (Empire Producers)
81.
asked the Minister of Supply whether he is aware that Canadian mine producers are passing on the advantages of their low cost of production to the British Government for war purposes by furnishing the largest part of their output at prices prevailing prior to the war, and that, according to the Canadian Deputy Minister of Mines, the British Government will pay from $75,000,000 to $90,000,000 less than for similar purchases in 1918; and what steps he is taking to show appreciation of this action?
His Majesty's Government are glad to have this opportunity once again to express their appreciation of the helpful attitude of Canadian and other Empire producers of non-ferrous metals.
Scottish Teachers' War Service (Civil Pay)
83.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in view of the different policies adopted by education authorities in Scotland in regard to making up the civil pay of teachers who undertake war service and of the uncertainty of authorities as to whether such payments will rank for grant, he will take steps to secure that authorities who make up the full balance of civil pay to teachers on war service will not be placed at a disadvantage in the distribution of grants from the Education (Scotland) Fund?
The draft Grant Regulations for the year 1940–41, which will be issued in the course of the next few weeks, will contain proposals to meet the point referred to by my hon. Friend. Each teacher on war service will count for grant in the proportion which the payment made to him by the education authorities bears to his normal salary, while substitute teachers will count in full. I trust that this answer will remove any doubts as to the amount of grant available for education authorities which exercise their powers.