House Of Commons
Wednesday, 29th May, 1940.
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
New Writ
For the Borough of Poplar (Bow and Bromley Division), in the room of the Right Honourable George Lansbury, deceased.—( Sir Charles Edwards.)
Private Business
CARDIFF CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
HUDDERSFIELD CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Read a Second time, and committed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (HUDDERSFIELD) BILL.
Order for Second Reading read, and discharged: Bill withdrawn.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (NORWICH) BILL.
NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Read a Second time, and committed.
Oral Answers To Questions
Egypt (Germans And Italians)
2.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information as to what precautions are being taken in connection with Italians and Germans in Egypt in view of what has happened in Norway and Holland?
:The right hon. Gentleman can rest assured that the Egyptian Government, acting in close consultation and co-operation with the British authorities, are taking all appropriate measures for the maintenance of internal security in Egypt in the event of emergency.
Refugees
3.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the increasing number of refugees entering this country, he will appeal to the United States of America to take as many refugees as possible; and, in particular, whether he will request the American authorities to speed up their reception of refugees who are in this country on their way to the United States of America, and whose entry into the United States of America has already been sanctioned by that country?
This matter is receiving by Noble Friend's attention.
31.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will indicate the percentage of refugees from Nazi oppression who are known to have committed hostile acts in this country; how this compares with similar acts committed by nationals of friendly States who were resident in this country; and whether friendly German and Austrian refugees recently interned are kept separate from known Nazi Government supporters?
I regret that no statistics are available to enable a comparison to be drawn such as the hon. Member suggests. The responsibility for the custody of German and Austrian male internees rests with the War Office and a Question on this subject is being addressed tomorrow to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War. As regards women internees, arrangements have been made for their accommodation in the Isle of Man.
:May we take it that far fewer hostile acts have been committed by these refugees from Nazi oppression than have been committed by the I.R.A.?
We have not any accurate definition of what is a hostile act, but speaking from memory, I cannot recall any case since the beginning of the war of anything which could be described as a hostile act having been proved in a court of law to be attributable to either of the classes of aliens mentioned in the hon. Gentleman's Question.
Will the hon. Gentleman make that as publicly known as possible to counteract extravagant anti-refugee agitation?
May I take it that the Government wish to cause no undue hardship by this Regulation, and in cases of such hardship, will they permit other members of the family, such as elderly or aged mothers, to go with their relatives to the Isle of Man, if they wish to do so?
All those questions are at present under consideration?
Will the Minister take an early opportunity of going round the camps himself to inquire into conditions and see how far they can be ameliorated?
I have been once to one of these camps, and I hope to go again before long.
In cases where married couples are interned, are they interned together, or sent to separate internment camps?
At the moment they are sent to separate internment camps, but, as I have indicated, the question of mixed internment camps is under consideration.
In regard to a Question that was asked yesterday by the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton), would it not be advisable to adopt German families?
Russia (Sir S Cripps' Mission)
5.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the hon. and learned Member for Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) has been appointed as Ambassador, or in lieu of such, to Russia; whether he will draw salary and allowances over and above his pay as Member of Parliament; and, if so, how much and for what period?
I hope that it will be possible to make a statement shortly.
In view of present associations with the Soviet Government may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is not possible to stop anti-Soviet broadcasts and news at the present time?
The matter will receive my Noble Friend's attention.
Spain (Sir S Hoare's Mission)
6.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the right hon. Member for Chelsea (Sir S. Hoare) has been appointed as an Ambassador, or in lieu of such, to Spain; whether he will draw salary and allowances over and above his pay as Member of Parliament; and, if so, how much and for what period?
Sir Samuel Hoare has been appointed as Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary on Special Mission. He will draw no salary in addition to his pay as Member of Parliament, but will receive frais de représentation at a rate appropriate to his mission.
Has the right hon. Gentleman seen a statement in the Press this morning that the right hon. Member for Chelsea (Sir S. Hoare) left London this morning by special train for an aerodrome? Was it necessary to have a special train for the right hon. Gentleman?
I understand that the right hon. Gentleman went from an aerodrome, which he could have reached without a special train. I am not aware of the special train.
Allies' War Aims (Poland)
7.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it is proposed to associate with the joint Anglo-French secretariat established in connection with various aspects of the Allied war efforts, any representative of the Polish Government?
The question of closer association between representatives of the Polish Government and the various Anglo-French organisations is at present under discussion with the Polish Government.
Rotterdam (Dutch And Neutral Shipping)
9.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, before the fall of Rotterdam, the numerous neutral and Dutch ships were evacuated in time so as not to fall into the hands of the enemy?
The Admiralty have no direct control over Dutch or neutral vessels, but the numerous vessels which took our advice were sailed and afforded every facility for reaching an Allied port.
Naval Reservists (Tobacco Prices)
10.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether naval reservists, on being recalled to the Service and now serving on one of His Majesty's ships (Depot), are given the same privileges as to duty-free cigarettes and tobacco as are applicable to sea-going ratings?
Naval reservists who have been called up enjoy exactly the same customs privileges as all other ratings. These privileges depend on the status of the ship or establishment, and are only granted in full to sea-going ships. Men in shore establishments and non-seagoing depot ships which fulfil certain conditions can obtain Service tobacco free of duty.
Colonial Sugar (Price)
12.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, assuming the present basic allotment of special preference is continued, there will be any reason for a varying price for sugar to be paid to the different Colonies?
No, Sir. The intention is to continue to pay the same basic price to all Colonies.
Trinidad (Uriah Butler Detention)
13.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what are the conditions of detention of Uriah Butler in Trinidad; whether this detention is indefinite; and whether any charge has been brought against him or any opportunity given him for appeal?
In November, 1939, Uriah Butler was detained by Order under the Colonial Defence Regulations. The detention continues as long as the Order remains in force. Butler had the opportunity to appeal but did not exercise it. The Governor indicated some time ago that he contemplated reviewing the case and, if further information is not received shortly, inquiry will be made of him by telegram as to the result of his review. I will then communicate with my hon. Friend.
Jamaica (Governor's Powers)
14.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies, what protests he has received from Jamaica complaining about the use by the Governor of his powers in respect to paramount importance; whether he is satisfied that such powers were used in conformity with the constitution; and what steps he is taking to extend democratic government in the Colony?
Representations have been received from a public meeting in Kingston. There has also been received direct a copy of a protest which is said to have been sent by certain elected members of the Legislative Council through the Governor, but this, with the Governor's comments, has not yet reached my Noble Friend. On its receipt the matter will be examined. As regards the last part of the Question, I would refer to the reply given to my hon. Friend on 6th March.
Are there any precedents for the use of these powers of "paramount importance," indicated in the Question?
I must have notice of that question.
West Africa (Cocoa Crop)
15.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can make a statement regarding the disposal of the surplus of the present season's West African cocoa crop?
As the answer is rather long I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
The accumulation of stocks of cocoa in West Africa consequent upon the loss of normal pre-war markets, particularly in Germany, Holland and Scandinavia, has already created serious pressure on available storage space. The purchasing of the mid-crop is to begin next week and His Majesty's Government have had to reach a decision as to the best method of its disposal. Possible outlets in this country are limited both by the natural limitations of demand and by the difficulties of rendering available additional shipping for cocoa, except at the expense of more essential commodities. Every effort has been, and will continue to be, made to effect sales in the markets which still remain open, but it is unfortunately impossible to hope for any large immediate increase in those sales. The possibility of local utilisation, for example by conversion into cocoa butter, is unfortunately ruled out by the absence of plant and the impossibility of obtaining it at the present moment.
In these circumstances His Majesty's Government have decided, after full consultation with the Governments of the Gold Coast and Nigeria that the most economical procedure will be to destroy the mid-crop as it is purchased and those Governments have been authorised to proceed accordingly. The mid-crop cocoa is inferior in quality to the main crop and even if it could be stored locally any attempt to dispose of it concurrently with the new main crop which will be available later in the year would be merely postponing difficulties. It is also intended to destroy, as circumstances require, such other cocoa already in store, as is found on inspection to have become unfit for marketing. Losses of this kind always occur, though not on the scale expected this year, since normally little cocoa remains in West Africa so late in the year as this. If cocoa of inferior quality is not destroyed at this season it quickly breeds insect pests and becomes a menace to the new crop.
The total quantity which will eventually be destroyed cannot be stated at present. It will naturally depend upon the progress of sales in over sea markets during the remainder of the season. The position will be reviewed each month to ensure that the proper balance is maintained between destruction and sales.
Electricity Commissioners (Grants)
16.
asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that the Electricity Commissioners have not yet settled and distributed to authorised undertakers the form of application for grants under Section 38 of the Civil Defence Act, 1939; and can he give an early date when such forms will be ready for circulation?
Yes, Sir, before the end of the present week.
Ministry Of Information
Yugoslavia (Sir Nevile Henderson's Book)
asked the Minister of Information why Sir Nevile Henderson's recent book was serialised in the Yugoslav Press through the instrumentality of the British Press Attaché at Belgrade; and whether he is aware that some of the passages selected have been greatly resented and were looked upon for a time as German propaganda?
:The book was serialised in one Jugoslav newspaper not through the instrumentality of the British Press Attaché, but through a British news agency. The selection of the extracts published was made by the newspaper. Reports from Belgrade do not confirm that certain passages were greatly resented. But in any event a book must be considered as a whole and I am satisfied that Sir Nevile Henderson's book, far from being looked on as German propaganda, demonstrates the responsibility of Germany for the outbreak of war.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider putting this book into circulation in working men's institutes and public libraries in large quantities?
Yes, Sir.
Battle Of Narvik (Broadcast)
19.
asked the Minister of Information whether his attention has been called to the protests which have been made at the methods employed by the British Broadcasting Corporation in giving their account of the Battle of Narvik in a broadcast on Whit Monday when impersonations of both living and dead persons were given over the air; whether he is aware that such impersonations of those who have been killed cause great pain to their relatives; and whether he will take steps to prevent the recurrence of similar action in the future?
:The answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. The British Broadcasting Corporation deeply regret any pain should have been caused by this production, the only object of which was to attempt to give a dramatic account of an heroic event. In future the greatest care will be taken to avoid anything that could possibly distress the relatives of the fallen.
Will the right hon. Gentleman see that on no future occasion will broadcasts of this unpardonably bad taste be allowed?
Yes, Sir.
Propaganda By Friendly Aliens
20.
asked the Minister of Information whether he is fully utilising the service of Czech and Austrian refugees of proven friendship with this country in propaganda to their respective countries; and whether he has taken any special steps to see that the recent pronouncement of the Vatican respecting aggressive war is conveyed to the Roman Catholic peoples of enemy and neutral States?
Yes, Sir. As regards the second part of the Question, all practical steps have been taken to convey the pronouncement of the Vatican on aggressive war both to enemy and neutral States.
Foreign Language Broadcasts (Fading)
18.
asked the Minister of Information whether he is aware of the complaints regarding the fading of British Broadcasting Corporation broadcasts in French; whether any tests have been made of the reception of our broadcasts in foreign languages, if so, with what result, and, if not, will such test be arranged?
Broadcasts made on medium waves are, generally speaking, only effective at the longer ranges after nightfall, so that in the summer the period when they can be received by listeners in the more distant parts of the Continent is necessarily limited. Tests made by the B.B.C. and reports from many listeners indicate, however, that reception on medium waves in the nearer part of the Continent, including the northern part of France, is satisfactory. The B.B.C. broadcasts in French are sent on both short and medium waves, and, according to the many reports available, the short wave transmissions are well received in France both by day and by night.
If I can give my right hon. Friend some evidence of fading in Central France through lack of power, will he look into it?
Certainly.
Post Office
Postage Rates (Britain And France)
21.
asked the Postmaster-General whether he will consider the advisability of making the postage rates between Britain and France the same as for inland correspondence?
I will consider the possibility of a reduction in the postage rates between the two countries in consultation with the French Administration.
Evacuated Children (Correspondence)
23.
asked the Postmaster-General whether he will consider giving the same concession to evacuee children desiring to write to their parents as is already granted to correspondence with the British Expeditionary Force?
I regret that the difficulties involved would make it impracticable to operate such a concession. There is the further consideration that a concession in this case would evoke claims for similar treatment from other classes of the community who feel that they are equally entitled to special consideration.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it would greatly facilitate voluntary evacuation if this comfort were given to mothers, so that they could have closer contact with their children?
Free Postage (French Soldiers In Britain)
24.
asked the Postmaster-General whether he will consider allowing French soldiers stationed in this country to send their letters to France free, as is the law in their own country?
I have already made arrangements to accord the concession which my hon. and gallant Friend has in mind. The concession covers unregistered letters up to 1 oz. in weight, and postcards, and corresponds with the concession already allowed by the French Post Office to British troops in France not served by our Army Post Office.
Parcel Post (Egypt)
25.
asked the Postmaster-General whether he will take similar action to reduce the postal rate on parcels sent to members of His Majesty's forces in Egypt as was taken in regard to the British Expeditionary Force?
I think my hon. Friend must be under some misapprehension, because the reduced postage rates for parcels and correspondence sent to members of the British Expeditionary Force apply also to parcels and correspondence for all of His Majesty's Forces abroad, including His Majesty's ships in foreign waters.
Postal Revenue
22.
asked the Postmaster-General whether he can give comparative figures showing the number of letters and postcards and the receipts for postage stamps before and since the introduction of the increased postage charges for any convenient period?
The statistics asked for will not be available for some time yet; but I gave an indication of the postal revenue position in my reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton on 22nd May, of which I am sending my hon. Friend a copy.
Do not these figures show the desirability of reconsidering the question of increased postal charges, which are causing more annoyance than they are worth?
The reply to which I have referred indicates that, although there has been a decrease in the volume of postal business, it has been less than that which was estimated in the Budget statement.
Undergraduates (Farm Work)
26.
asked the Minister of Agriculture the number of undergraduates at the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge who have volunteered for work on farms during the forthcoming harvest; and whether he has made an appeal to undergraduates in the other Universities of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to give similar service in their respective districts?
The authorities at all the principal Universities and University Colleges in England and Wales have been asked to assist in enrolling students who are willing to work on farms during the summer vacation. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has invited students of the Universities and other educational institutions in Scotland to volunteer and I am informed that a similar appeal has been made in Northern Ireland. The scheme was only made known to students last week and I am not yet able to say how many students at Cambridge have volunteered. At Oxford where recruiting has been going on for a longer period, the number of applications received is 168.
May I ask whether arrangements have been made by the Ministry to keep in constant contact with Universities in order to encourage the organisation of labour in this way continuously through the coming harvest?
Yes, Sir.
Has the invitation also been extended to students at training colleges?
Yes, Sir.
Is this to apply to Members of Parliament during their holidays?
Civil Defence
Evacuated Children
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he will approach the Canadian and other Dominion Governments to see whether children and others willing to go can be evacuated to a place of safety in the Dominions?
The evacuation scheme now in operation in this country provides for the movement of school children accompanied by their teachers to safer areas in this country. Apart from the practical difficulties involved, a proposal to move individual children outside the country would introduce entirely different considerations and, as at present advised, my Noble Friend would not feel justified in making an approach to Dominion Governments on the lines suggested.
Will the hon. Gentleman bear this point in mind if a situation arises in which there is great danger in a large part of the country?
Will my hon. Friend consider approaching the Dominion Governments with a view to their taking some of the aliens in this country, because we are getting very overcrowded?
Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that the test of a nation is the capacity of the civil population to put up with hardship and peril?
28.
asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that many buildings earmarked for use as hostels by evacuated children who cannot be billeted in homes are in bad condition; that many local exacuation committees have been informed that such buildings, even if empty, may not be entered and repaired until evacuation has been ordered; and whether he will authorise authorities to proceed immediately with the necessary repairs?
In view of recent developments my right hon. Friend sent local authorities some days ago a circular, of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy, authorising them to incur necessary and reasonable expenditure on acquiring and equipping emergency hostels.
Motor Mechanics
29.
asked the Home Secretary whether he will take steps to ensure that local authorities will not be left without sufficient motor mechanics to maintain the vehicles required for Civil Defence purposes as the result of the recent appeal by the Minister of Aircraft Production for motor mechanics?
:Yes, Sir. While this matter is primarily the responsibility of the local authorities, the Department will assist local authorities in every possible way to maintain this essential service.
Aliens
30.
asked the Home Secretary whether he can give an assurance that every female alien domestic worker is known to the police; and whether he will consider making it a penal offence for an employer not to inform the police that he or she employs such a servant?
Every alien over the age of 16 is required to register with the police, and the occupier of any premises where an alien resides is required to satisfy himself that the alien has registered, and if not so satisfied to report to the police. Any failure therefore by an employer to see that the police have the requisite information is already an offence.
Is it true that anybody born in an enemy country is an enemy alien?
That does not arise on this Question.
Is it not a fact that in certain rural areas in this country this Regulation does not seem to be known to the local police, and will my hon. Friend tighten the Regulation and make it more widespread?
The Regulation is certainly well known to the police, and I dare say that the effect of this Question and answer will be to make it better known to the general public.
Will my hon. Friend be sure that it is known in the West Country, because at Plymouth, Devonport and so on, there are many domestic servants who are enemy aliens, and nobody has touched them?
Allies (Rights And Privileges)
33.
asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider offering to grant, without any infringement of their sovereign rights, to all the countries who are fighting with us in the present war, the rights and privileges now enjoyed by the British Commonwealth of Nations?
I do not consider that it is opportune to pursue this question at the present juncture.
Armed Forces (Irish Volunteers)
34.
asked the Prime Minister whether he will give the number of volunteers who have enlisted in the British fighting services from Eire and Northern Ireland, respectively, since 3rd September?
The number of volunteers from Northern Ireland who have, joined the British Fighting Services from the beginning of September is approximately 10,860. As regards Eire, I regret that no figures are available giving the total number of volunteers.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what would have been the contribution from Northern Ireland had the National Service (Armed Forces) Act applied to that country?
Sir Horace Wilson
35.
asked the Prime Minister what change there is to be in the functions hitherto performed by Sir Horace Wilson, other than those officially belonging to the Permanent Secretary ship of the Treasury?
Sir Horace Wilson will perform the regular normal functions belonging to the Permanent Secretary of the Treasury.
Do I understand from that reply that he will not be personal adviser, to the Prime Minister?
Is it not a fact that this officer was only obeying instructions given to him by a Minister?
All civil servants carry out orders given to them by Ministers and Ministers are responsible for their acts.
Ministry Of Supply
Iron And Iron Alloys
36.
asked the Minister of Supply whether he has yet found out whether, and, if so, for what purposes, iron and iron alloys can be used, instead of steel, for war and peace purposes now that there is a shortage of steel?
:The question of increasing the use of iron castings in place of steel is being actively pursued and in certain cases, such as in the machine tool and motor car industries, some substitution has already been made. It must be remembered that one main reason for the shortage of steel is the shortage of iron.
Is the Minister satisfied that the Department gives consideration to individuals who submit alloys in place of steel, particularly with regard to shells?
There are many proposals as to substitute materials, and I can assure my hon. Friend that we shall at all times be prepared to consider them.
Engineering Production
37 and 38.
asked the Minister of Supply (1) whether he is aware that it is the considered view of organisations who cater for engineering workers, that the best way to increase production is to restore the pre-1931 conditions and institute a three-shift system; whether consideration has been given to this; and what steps have been or are proposed to be taken;
(2) whether he is aware that the engineering trade unions consider that the best service is not being obtained from skilled and semi-skilled engineers; and what action is being taken to deal with this matter in order to expedite supply?My hon. Friend will be aware that full powers have been taken under the Defence Regulations to control war production undertakings. He may be assured that the questions of the most effective organisation as regards hours and shifts and the best possible utilisation of available skilled and semi-skilled labour are receiving careful attention.
Will my right hon. Friend consider the advisability of consulting the Minister of Labour in order that an early conference may be called of all the interests involved, with a view to securing maximum production?
In the new circumstances, this is obviously a matter with which the Minister of Labour is also concerned, and my hon. Friend may be assured that I am in contact with my right hon. Friend about it.
Organisation And Policy
39.
asked the Minister of Supply whether it is his intention to profit by the experiences of the Ministry of Munitions in securing the maximum supply with the minimum of cost and time; to organise the areas on a basis that was proved the best and to make all factories where orders are given controlled establishments; and whether he will make a statement on his proposed policy?
The experience of the Ministry of Munitions will of course be taken into account so far as applicable to present conditions. My immediate policy is, however, to secure the utmost possible production in the shortest possible time from all capacity that is now capable of production, and I cannot at present proceed with any reorganisation of long-term planning that might interfere with these vitally urgent needs. With regard to controlled establishments, a first list is now being drawn up and will be issued as soon as possible.
May we take it that my right hon. Friend will not adopt the policy which has been adopted heretofore, of leaving these things in the hands of one big organisation and neglecting half a dozen other organisations, which are smaller but of a useful size?
That is certainly a consideration which I shall keep in mind.
49.
asked the Minister of Supply whether he will make a statement on the present position of the area committees for the production of munitions; and whether he will consider giving these committees increased administrative and executive powers?
I am not in a position to make any statement on this subject at present. In view of the transfer of central responsibility for the area organisation from me to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service, the whole question is under consideration.
Are we to understand that the advisory committees of the former Ministry of Supply have been abolished?
There were certain committees which advised the Minister of Supply, particularly in relation to labour matters but which, quite rightly, in the new circumstances have been transferred to the Ministry of Labour although the Departments concerned will be represented on them.
The committees to which I was referring were those in various districts throughout the country representing employers and employés.
I think they are the committees to which I referred.
Unemployed Joiners (Belfast)
41.
asked the Minister of Supply whether, in view of the letter which he and other Ministers have received drawing attention to the large number of unemployed joiners in the city of Belfast and district who are prepared to do their part towards hastening victory, he will immediately take steps to have the services of these men utilised in every possible way in the national interest at a time when their skilled labour is so much needed towards the winning of the war?
I am looking into this matter in conjunction with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service.
May I ask what the Minister proposes to do in order to meet the serious situation which was brought to the notice of this House a few months ago, and is being aggravated week by week, in the case of these workers in Belfast? Surely there is some work available for them?
I shall be anxious to provide useful employment for anybody who is without work, but I ought to point out that wood-work is not in the category of the most difficult items with which the Ministry has to deal. I am sure, however, that this matter will receive not only my attention but also the attention of the Minister of Labour in connection with the general mobilisation of the labour resources of the United Kingdom.
Is it not true that a large number of wood-workers are out of employment all over the country as well as in Belfast?
I quite agree. I believe there is unemployment among wood-workers generally.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the very serious distress and waste of energy which are being caused by this unemployment; and will he apply his mind to seeing whether these highly-skilled craftsmen cannot be employed in their own trade, or diverted to munitions work?
Certainly the matter will be given attention, but the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that in the new circumstances it is very much a matter for consideration by the Ministry of Labour. My immediate business is to get the speediest output of the munitions which are actually required.
Non-Ferrous Metal Control
43.
asked the Minister of Supply whether he will state the terms of the arrangement entered into between his Department and the British Metal Corporation for the running of the Non-Ferrous Metal Control; and whether any guarantee of profit has been given to that corporation and, if so, what?
The British Metal Corporation receive an annual inclusive fee for their services in operating the Non-Ferrous Metal Control of the Ministry. The fee has been determined mainly by reference to the expenses incurred by the company, and no guarantee of the profit previously earned has been given.
Is the Minister not prepared to tell the House what the fee is?
Not without notice.
I asked the Minister a specific Question about the fee. Surely that was sufficient notice?
That is quite true, but I am not sure that it would be right to bring the figures before the House. [Hon. Members: "Why?"] I will give the matter consideration.
Waste (Salvage, Sutton And Cheam)
45.
asked the Minister of Supply whether he is satisfied with the steps that the Sutton and Cheam Borough Council have taken for the collection of waste?
The Sutton and Cheam Borough Council have taken active steps to extend and improve their collection of waste materials, and their return for the month of April shows that the value of the material salvaged has more than doubled since December last. There is, however, room for considerable improvement before they equal the standard reached by many other boroughs.
Can the Minister say whether any decision was reached at the meeting which he attended yesterday afternoon in relation to the appointment of compulsory salvage inspectors by all local authorities?
I am afraid that I did not attend such a meeting.
Is the Minister aware that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry stated yesterday that the right hon. Gentleman was that day attending a meeting on this matter?
Scrap Metal
46.
asked the Minister of Supply whether he will consult the Minister of Transport on the possibility of utilising for war purposes the standards placed at pedestrian crossings throughout the country, particularly where such crossings are plainly marked by studs or traffic lights?
I have consulted my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport in regard to this matter. Apart from the considerations of public safety which would be involved in the removal of the standards placed at pedestrian crossings, the relatively small tonnage of scrap material which would become available would not in present circumstances justify the labour of collection and of the necessary repairs to public footways.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the general public take no notice of these standards at the present time, and are guided only by the studs on the roads?
I have opinions upon this matter but as I am not Minister of Transport, it would not be wise for me to give utterance to them.
Would it not be possible to save labour by cutting off these standards level with the pavement?
We will give consideration to that point, but the hon. Member will appreciate the fact that the Minister of Transport is very much concerned in this matter and I must take his view into account.
48.
asked the Minister of Supply whether steps are being taken to collect the iron railings in London and other parts of the country, wherever public safety permits, for conversion into scrap metal for war purposes?
The question of utilising unnecessary iron railings as scrap has been constantly before my Department. Surveys have been carried out and representations made to the public authorities and private owners concerned in a number of cases, while a public campaign has been undertaken to persuade the general public to release railings for scrap. The action taken has been successful and the movement to give up railings is gathering momentum. If, however, I am at any time dissatisfied with the progress which is being made, I shall be ready to take further steps.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it has taken a war to secure the removal of the dangerous and unnecessary "shin" rails from Hyde Park; and will he do what he can to have them all removed as quickly as possible?
I think that is a question for another Minister.
Is the Minister aware that iron railings are now being erected round certain factories in the Midlands?
I would not like to express an opinion about that. There may be security reasons for it. If my hon. and gallant Friend will give me particulars, I will have the matter looked into.
Will the Minister consider the collection of material in a sphere in which there is an infinitely greater shortage, namely that of aluminium products, used for household purposes?
Yes, I will look into that.
Is not this a glorious opportunity for the Minister to issue instructions that spiked railings should be done away with all over the country?
I am not sure that spiked railings may not be very useful.
Paper-Making Materials
47.
asked the Minister of Supply what steps he proposes to take to continue the manufacture of paper in this country by the use of materials available here or easily importable in order to prevent the purchase of large supplies of the finished article from abroad?
Every effort is being made to develop to the fullest extent the home supplies of paper-making materials, chiefly waste paper, and so far as possible paper-making materials will be imported rather than paper.
Government Contracts (Financial Assistance)
50.
(for Sir George Mitcheson) asked the Minister of Supply whether his attention has been drawn to the financial difficulties facing many small contractors and sub-contractors to His Majesty's Government, caused by the request of the Supply Departments to work overtime, night-shifts, and during week-ends, as a result of which such firms will experience difficulty in finding, for the time being, the cash needed to pay wages; and what steps he proposes to take to help such firms?
The Ministry of Supply rely in the main on the banking system of the country to provide such financial assistance as is required by contractors to carry out their contracts, and action has been taken to secure the co-operation of the banks for the purpose. My Department is, however, always ready to advise any contractor who is in financial difficulties.
Tanks (Constitution Of Board)
(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Supply whether he has given consideration to the position in regard to the supply of tanks?
Yes, Sir, and I have decided, in consultation with the Secretary of State for War, to constitute a Tank Board to consider the whole situation regarding the production and design of tanks and to advise me as to the action required. The Board will be asked to proceed with all expedition in dealing with this urgent and vital matter. I have secured the services of Sir Alexander Roger as Chairman of the Board. I have also secured the services of Mr. Durrant, a chief engineer under the London Passenger Transport Board; Mr. Moyses, managing director of the Birmingham Railway Carriage and Wagon Company, Limited, and Mr. G. W. Thomson, member of the General Council of the Trades Union Congress. Further members will be appointed to represent the War Office and Ministry of Supply and their names will be announced shortly.
I take it that the Government have taken notice of the havoc by German tanks on the Western Front and that they will speed up production?
It is obvious that the experience gained during recent hostilities must be taken fully into account.
Food Supplies
Control Committees (Appointments)
52.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether instructions have been issued against members of local authorities accepting appointments under food control organisations?
I would refer the hon. Member to my reply on Thursday last to a similar Question by the hon. Member for Normanton (Mr. T. Smith).
Bread
53.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in connection with the in crease in the price of bread which has been recommended by the London Joint Bread Price Committee on or after 20th May, he can state what percentage of this proposed increase will be passed on to the bakers?
I presume my hon. Friend refers to the recent increase of ¼d. in the price of the 1 lb. loaf in the London area recently recommended to bakers by the London Joint Price Committee. In so far as effect is given by bakers to this recommendation the increase of price will accrue to those bakers.
Is the Minister aware that unless problems are solved at their roots they beget other problems, and it then becomes incumbent to solve those other problems?
Yes, Sir.
54.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he can now make some statement regarding the Government's intentions over the introduction of national or standard bread throughout the country?
59.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is satisfied with the present position with regard to the nutritive value of bread generally sold to the public in this country; whether he has yet been able to consider the recommendation sent to him by a group of Members of this House interested in the scientific aspect of this matter; and whether he proposes to take any steps in the matter having regard to the desirability of enabling the public to obtain the maximum nourishment from bread?
The whole question of the nutritive value of bread is now under consideration and I am not at present in a position to make any statement.
Has this question not been settled 20 years ago?
Not so far as I am aware.
Is this not a most important issue?
Animal Feeding-Stuffs (Northern Ireland)
55.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in view of the facts and figures placed before the Ministry regarding the shortage in the delivery of feeding-stuffs to Northern Ireland since the beginning of this year, he will make arrangements for the supply of the promised quota to Northern Ireland, thus placing it on a par with Great Britain?
Since 1st February the proportion of pre-war supplies of maize and barley allocated to Northern Ireland has been slightly higher than the proportion allocated to Great Britain, but it has not been possible to make up the January deficiency. I have communicated with my hon. Friend in reply to the letter he addressed to me on this subject, and I am having further inquiries made.
Will the Minister give a promise that as early as possible he will make up the deficiency for January?
Yes, Sir, as early as possible.
Cold-Storage Accommodation
56.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in view of the prospective erection of cold-storage depots in Great Britain, he will arrange to have at least one such depot erected in Northern Ireland where the conditions are so favourable for cold-storage purposes?
I regret that it is not practicable to adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion. The existing cold storage space in Northern Ireland is more than sufficient to meet the needs of local consumption.
Arising from that answer, may I point out that I am informed other- wise? In view of the situation with which we are faced, we feel that the Ministry should give us more storage facilities in Northern Ireland.
58.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is satisfied with the present volume and utilisation of cold-storage accommodation in this country; and what steps he is taking to offer reasonable inducement to private enterprise to increase their cold-storage capacity on a temporary or permanent basis?
I am satisfied that the cold storage accommodation at present available is being used in the best manner. Accommodation is being increased as quickly as possible by the erection of new Government cold stores and by inducements to cold store proprietors to build new cold-storage space.
Empire Sugar Imports
57.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what is the approximate proportion of our sugar imports which are now being obtained from Empire sources; how this proportion compares with that at a similar date in 1939; and whether he anticipates that it will shortly be possible to obtain all our requirements of sugar from the Empire?
Arrangements have been completed for the purchase of the entire exports of the coming season's sugar crops of Australia, the Union of South Africa, Mauritius, Fiji and the British West Indian Colonies. The total quantity involved is about one and three-quarter million tons, of which the United Kingdom proportion is about one and a quarter million tons. Arrivals of this sugar in the United Kingdom will be spread over a long period, beginning in about two months and do not therefore affect the immediate sugar supplies.
Canada and New Zealand are partners with the United Kingdom Government in these purchases, and both Dominions have shown the utmost co-operation throughout the negotiations, whilst the arrangements have been much facilitated by the helpful attitude of the exporting Dominions and Colonies concerned. Supplies of foreign sugar are only purchased to supplement, as necessary, deficiencies in supplies from Empire sources and this policy will be continued for the future. In the circumstances no useful conclusion would be drawn from a comparison between present and pre-war figures.Butter (Prices)
60.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he has considered cases in which large retail firms are selling national butter at 1s. 6d. per pound, whereas small shops, who cannot purchase supplies at less than 1s. 5d., can hardly sell at less than 1s. 7d.; and how he proposes to deal with them?
I am aware that national butter is being sold by certain retail organisations below the prescribed maximum price of 1s. 7d. per pound. This is clearly in the consumers' interest and it is not desirable to take any step which would have the effect of increasing the cost to the consumer.
Could not an effort be made to supply small retailers with butter at 1s. 5d. and to allow them to sell it at a higher price?
My Noble Friend is not, I think, prepared to take any steps which would have the effect of raising prices for the consumer.
Will the Minister say that the price of butter will not go up any higher, because, if it does, the poorer sections of the community will be able to have nothing more than margarine?
We are doing our best to see that no prices go up.
If it is possible for some firms to sell national butter on an economic basis at 1s. 6d. a pound, would it not be possible to arrange the distribution of butter so that everyone could purchase it at that price? What justification is there for one section of the population paying 1s. 7d. per pound for butter and another section paying 1s. 6d. per pound?
The element of competition comes in, which I do not think is unhealthy; but the whole question of trade margins is under consideration.
Why should the poor consumer pay for the competition?
Price Control
61.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what steps he proposes to take to subject to price control those articles of foodstuffs in common use that are not subject to control by the Minister of Food, and which are not covered by any order yet made under the Prices of Goods Act?
By far the larger part of foodstuffs in common use is controlled either by a Maximum Price Order or by some other means. Control will be extended where practicable and necessary to other foodstuffs of the kind described by my hon. and learned Friend as soon as possible.
Has the Minister received certain complaints, particularly from the North Regional Prices Committee, with regard to high prices of foodstuffs not yet controlled? Does he not think that after nine months of war it is time to put an end to these many vexations?
Yes, Sir, these questions are under consideration and action will be taken as soon as possible. I would remind my hon. and learned Friend that charges of profiteering can be brought under the Prices of Goods Act.
Is the Minister aware that unless a commodity is subject to the Prices of Goods Act Regulations it is difficult to find anyone who can take action? Will he consider, on behalf of the people who are paying these prices, taking action forthwith?
I shall be very glad if my hon. and learned Friend can give me any instances.
Is the Minister taking note of the extraordinary price charged for tomatoes? In some cases they are being sold at 1s. 6d. a pound.
Unemployment Insurance (New Entrants)
32.
(for Sir Herbert Williams) asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour whether he can state the number of people who have become insured under the Unemployment Insurance Acts for the first time during the last eight months and the corresponding figures for a similar period for a year previously?
Dur- ing the eight months September, 1939, to April, 1940, the number of new entrants to Unemployment Insurance in Great Britain was approximately 813,000. The corresponding figure for the period September, 1938, to April, 1939, was 547,000.
Local Defence Volunteers
(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for War whether adequate numbers of volunteers have been enlisted for the defence of London and whether those volunteers are armed with defensive weapons issued by the War Office or with weapons provided by themselves?
Where is the Minister?
On a point of Order. May I not be allowed an answer to the Question, of which I gave notice yesterday?
I can only express my regret to the hon. Lady that the right hon. Gentleman does not appear for the moment to be in his place. I can offer no explanation but only say that I regret it and will see that an answer is sent to the hon. Lady as soon as possible.
On a point of Order. I always understood that a Private Notice Question was one that could not be answered in the ordinary course of House of Commons procedure. May I ask whether this Question was considered by you, Mr. Speaker, and accepted as one that could not be answered in the ordinary course of procedure?
The hon. Member must remember that we are now in Question Time; it is only now half-past Three and any Question of which notice has been given can be answered up to a quarter to Four.
As I have had no answer to my Question and it is a matter of some moment, and as I was informed yesterday at 5.30 that volunteers in London are not allowed—
I must apologise to the hon. Member, but I have had no notice of any Question from her for this afternoon.
Perhaps the Financial Secretary would prefer that I should ask the Question again or raise the matter on the Adjournment?
The Question had better be postponed until to-morrow.
I will postpone it until to-morrow.
Palace Of Westminster
Security Arrangements
I wish to inform the House that it has been considered necessary to bring into force special Security Arrangements for the Palace of Westminster.
Permanent passes will be available at the Admission Order Office after noon to-morrow for all Members of Parliament, Officers of the House, and such other persons as have regular employment or business in the House. I must ask every Member to apply individually for one of these passes as soon as possible; they are signed by the Lord Great Chamberlain. A paper giving full details of these arrangements will be issued to every Member from the Office of the Chief Government Whip, so I do not propose to describe them in further detail now. The entrance to Westminster Bridge Station by way of the Colonnade and subway will be closed after to-morrow; but for the convenience of Members and Officials, it will be opened for exit only for 30 minutes after the rising of the House, on days when the House meets. I am sure I may ask for the co-operation of all Members in strictly carrying out these necessary arrangements, though I realise that they may cause some inconvenience to Members and their friends.Has any decision been arrived at with regard to the public galleries, whether the public are to be allowed in and whether precautions will be taken in that respect?
The hon. Member had better wait until he sees the regulations which have been drawn up.
Is it intended, when Members apply for their passes, to ask them to surrender the passes they already hold, in view of the fact that it is undesirable that Members, who have passes which were issued some months ago, should have more than one pass?
I think that the passes referred to by the hon. Member are voluntary passes and not specially with a view to admittance to the precincts of the House.
Whether those passes are official or unofficial, is it not desirable, since they are signed by the Serjeant at Arms and bear the stamp of the House of Commons, that they should be withdrawn before new passes are issued?
Were not those passes issued only in view of the evacuation scheme?
Did I understand correctly that although we can go out by the Colonnade to Westminster Station, we are not permitted to come in by that way?
Members are only permitted to go out by the subway for half-an-hour after the House rises.
May I ask whether you have seen the pass issued by certain Ministers to Members, who are told that Ministers cannot be interviewed unless Members are in possession of one of them?
I think that is dealt with in the regulations.
Members of the House are in possession of official passes signed by the Serjeant at Arms and stamped with the House of Commons stamp. Seeing that the issue of new passes is about to begin, would it not be better to say that they shall not be issued until the old passes are returned?
That is not a compulsory but a voluntary pass. It is, however, unwise to have a multiplicity of passes and Members had better surrender the old ones.
I should have thought that it was obvious to every Member that the old passes, if not surrendered, may be lost or misused, making the system more dangerous than if no passes were issued?
That is why I said that it would be better to surrender them.
Was not one of the reasons why these special passes were issued to assist Members when they are travelling about?
It would be better to surrender those passes when the new ones are issued.
Are we to take it that a careless Member arriving without his pass will be refused admission to the premises?
There are a good many questions that I could not answer.
Bill Presented
Superannuation Schemes (War Service) Bill
"to enable provision to be made for preventing loss of benefits under certain superannuation schemes by persons undertaking service in the Forces or employment for war purposes," presented by Mr. Assheton; supported by Sir Andrew Duncan, the Attorney-General and Captain Crookshank; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 55.]
Business Of The House
Ordered,
"That all the remaining stages of the National Loans (No. 2) Bill may be taken at this day's sitting, notwithstanding the practice of the House relating to the interval between the various stages of such a Bill, and that immediately after the Bill has been read a Second time, it shall be considered in Committee of the whole House."—[ Mr. Attlee.]
Orders Of The Day
Finance Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
3.41 p.m.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
The discussions on the Budget Resolutions have already covered a wide range, and, before dealing generally with some considerations respecting our finance and war, I propose to-day to refer only to three or four main provisions of the Bill which are of some importance and upon which further explanations will, no doubt, be regarded as desirable. As the House knows, five separate enactments are necessary to implement the Budget proposals. There is this Bill, which embodies the increases in normal taxes, and legislation for the amendment and improvement of the current tax law. It includes, for example, the increased duties on beer, spirits, tobacco, matches and mechanical lighters and the raising of the standard rate of Income Tax to 7s. 6d. The postal charges will require a separate piece of legislation save in so far as they have been imposed by warrant or regulation, like the increase in ordinary postal rates. The limitation of dividends is already the subject of discussion in another Bill in this House. There will need to be a Measure to implement the undertaking to exempt from the operation of the means test new savings lent to the nation during the war up to a total of £375. There is also the Bill to provide the legislative machinery for a Purchase Tax. The only proposal made in regard to it and the basis on which the House passed the appropriate Resolution was that the necessary machinery should be enacted and power taken for Parliament to impose an actual duty by an affirmative Resolution of the House upon a Treasury Order. It has already been stated that the first step in this connection must be a careful technical study, in consultation with business interests, in order that it may be ascertained that machinery can be devised which will fit in with the general framework of industrial and commercial practice, and these consultations are now taking place. The Finance Bill is long, and many parts of it are of a complicated character, but three subjects account in the main for its bulky character. First, there are numerous new provisions relating to the Excess Profits Tax, many of which cannot, I am afraid, be expressed otherwise than in long and technical phrases. When the main proposals were dealt with last autumn it was recognised that there must be many rough edges which would have to be smoothed off after experience had been gained and representations heard from the taxpayers affected. The new provisions to which I refer are the result of long and careful consideration of the nature of the inequalities and hard cases which, as we believe, need to be reasonably met. There is also, in addition to the matters relating to the Excess Profits Tax, a long and technical passage dealing with certain methods of evasion of Estate Duty. I think it will be accepted in all quarters of the House that artificial and legal devices which frustrate the equal incidence of an important tax ought to be dealt with in order that all may contribute their proper share, the necessity for which was never greater than it is to-day. There are also provisions by which certain rents which are not at present adequately dealt with are to be the subject of taxation. Clauses 13 to 18 deal with this subject, which I may for convenience describe as the taxation of excess rents, that is, rents not adequately taxed under the law. Although I am afraid that here, again, the wording of the Clauses is necessarily technical, the object to which they are directed can be briefly described. They are three in number. First, it is proposed in cases where a property is unoccupied, but a rent there for is being paid to the landlord, to secure payment of tax on the rent so paid. It is perhaps rather curious, but as the law stands to-day no tax is payable if the property is empty; the rent paid escapes tax in the hands of the recipient. That, I think, is a result which is quite indefensible and it is proposed to remedy it. Secondly, it is proposed in cases where rents for property are paid and those rents exceed the Schedule A assessment of the property to charge the excess to Income Tax. This proposal extends to what I may refer to for convenience as short leases, where the lease is for a period not exceeding 50 years. The types of case in which rent in excess of the Schedule A assessment escapes taxation are, it is true, limited in number, but very often, I am informed, large amounts are involved, and it is only right that the recipient of the rent should bear tax upon the amount which he actually receives. I should like to add in connection with all these provisions that there is nothing in them which in any way affects the existing right to claim reduction of a Schedule A assessment or the right to claim relief in respect of maintenance and repairs. The third proposal is directed to removing a long-standing anomaly relating to the deduction of tax from ground rent and other rents payable under leases granted for a period exceeding 50years. It frequently happens that in such cases the rent payable greatly exceeds the Schedule A assessment on the property, but as the law stands to-day the recipient of the rent escapes tax on such excess, and the payer of the ground rent can only deduct as a charge in computing his total income an amount equal to the amount of the assessment. It is proposed to remedy the position by putting rents payable under long leases in the same position, as regards deduction of tax, as other charges on income such as mortgage interest. The result will be that the payer of the rent will not himself bear tax on the amount of the rent, while the recipient of the rent will bear standard rate, and Surtax, on his full income, as indeed ought to be the case. I would refer briefly to certain provisions contained in Part III of the Bill, in relation to the Excess Profits Tax and the National Defence Contribution. Part III contains detailed provisions covering technical points, mostly of a minor character, relating to the Excess Profits Tax, and one or two minor Amendments in relation to the National Defence Contribution. It can be said that the provisions in relation to Excess Profits Tax last year, certainly so far as I have been able to judge from the discussions at that time, have never been regarded as in their final form. It has always been accepted that they would be subject to amendment and review in the present Bill. The provisions of the Bill are the result of careful examination and also in response to representations made to us. Our object is to make the tax more workable and equitable between one type of business and another. At the same time, opportunity has been taken to make the machinery more efficient for the collection of the tax, particularly in the case of parent and subsidiary companies. Perhaps I might now refer for a minute or two to what I regard as perhaps the most important of the Amendments now proposed, that which is contained in Clause 26, which substitutes a new provision in place of Section 13 (7) of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1939. Hon. Members will no doubt remember that that Subsection conferred powers on the Board of Referees to allow a substitute standard when the figures of past profits would not constitute a reasonable standard. In that Sub-section it was intended to deal with cases of hardship, but it was criticised in the Finance Bill Debates last autumn as affording inadequate relief to the depressed industries and on the ground that it operated unfairly as between one business and another. There is one particular criticism which, I have no doubt, the right hon. Gentleman will remember, and that was in relation to the limitation imposed of a percentage calculated in relation to share capital. That was criticised on the ground that share capital is arbitrary and in many cases does not adequately represent the real value of the trading assets. It was also represented that where, in addition to the original capital subscribed by the shareholders, there were reserves built up out of past profits, and the real value of the trading assets proved the existence of those reserves, it was not fair that the percentage should be given on share capital only. That was the basis of the criticism. I think the case was stronger still, as it was put, in regard to private companies, because there, I think, you find the amount of share capital much more haphazard. It was stated that unfairness would ensue if share capital were not amended to some other basis which would, at any rate, reflect the capital actually at stake in the business, as shown by the assets at the time. The new provisions in Clause 26 are designed to meet those criticisms. I would point out that the Clause applies to the special cases which have to satisfy two conditions. They are that there were losses in the standard period or that the profits were so low as not to afford a reasonable standard. The Clause first provides that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue may give a substituted standard, but not exceeding a percentage on share capital, for the standard period. That is the first proposal. Then it is suggested that any taxpayer who is dissatisfied with the determination of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue can appeal to the Board of Referees. That is the first limb of the new provision. If the Board of Referees are satisfied in any particular case that the paid-up share capital does not fully represent the value of the trading assets, they may award a higher standard, not exceeding the amount that would reflect the capital actually at stake in the business, as shown by the assets at the time. They will receive the appropriate percentage on the value of the trading assets in the standard year. This will enable a higher standard to be claimed in cases where, for instance, reserves have been built up in the past, and are employed in the business, but there has been no corresponding increase in the share capital. Finally, there is a special provision for concerns that belong to a depressed industry, during the standard period. In such cases it is true it may be contended that the value of the trading assets in any standard period does not provide a satisfactory criterion, since it might very well be said that, owing to the depressed state of the industry, the value of the trading assets of concerns in the industry would also probably be, in their turn, depressed. For this reason, to deal with the special cases which I think it is generally agreed should be met, it is proposed that the Board of Referees should be permitted in these depressed industry cases to award a standard exceeding the percentage on the value of the trading assets in the standard period. There will be, however—and this, of course, is necessary—a maximum limit to the amount which the Board of Referees can award, and the amount which is fixed can be defined in this way. It is the appropriate percentage on the capital employed in the business in the standard period as computed for excess profits purposes after excluding any dead wood in the capital, or, to put it in other words, excluding any asset the value of which has been permanently lost. This means in effect that concerns within the depressed industries can be awarded a standard up to an amount not exceeding the percentage on the written-down value of the assets of the business in the standard period. I hope that this will meet the case which has been strongly pressed upon the Treasury, because I think everyone will agree that it is vitally important in the case of an Excess Profits Tax that depressed concerns and firms in the development stage should be able to obtain a reasonable and satisfactory standard. I hope industrialists will agree that by these new provisions we have gone a long way towards meeting the quite legitimate criticism that has been advanced against the provisions already on the Statute Book. I will only, in conclusion, in dealing with this Part of the Bill, remind the House that the Board of Referees, upon whom this important duty falls, have been appointed to adjudicate on what I agree is a very important matter, and they have a considerable responsibility. The House will remember that they are a body of experienced men, who will be able to bring to bear on the problem, as they have done in the past, great expert knowledge of business organisation and finance. While I am speaking of the Excess Profits Tax, I will take the opportunity of referring to a particular and immediate question which I have at present to consider in relation to the tax. The House will recall the recent statement of the Lord Privy Seal, when he made it clear that undertakings which have been declared by the Minister of Supply to be controlled undertakings will pay Excess Profits Tax at 100 per cent. These are undertakings which, in terms of the recent Regulations, are or will be principally engaged upon war production. That was the extent of the decision definitely reached at that time. But the question arises whether, in the grave times through which we are passing, all other trades and businesses should not pay the tax. I have now considered this and have reached the conclusion that it is right that they should do so. In the first place, I think that if we are to have differential rates of Excess Profits Tax for different classes of undertakings, it is an extremely difficult and invidious task to make a fair and equitable distinction between those who should pay the higher rate and those who should pay the lower. Industry, after all, in a modern State, is a very complicated instrument, and one type of concern merges into another through a great series of gradations. Secondly, I believe that in these times it will accord with the general views of all, including, I venture to believe, the views of industry itself, that excess profits in business in war-time should be ruled out altogether, whether the business is engaged on war production or on any other kind of activity. Accordingly, I shall shortly introduce a Resolution applying to all trades and businesses the Excess Profits Tax of 100 per cent., with effect from 1st April last.The right hon. Gentleman has made a very important announcement. Has he considered the alteration of the £3,000 limit for a certain number of directors? Will he think of that when taking this further step?
I will consider that, and I shall be anxious to hear any arguments on the Resolution.
Does this apply to private businesses as well as public?
It appli