House Of Commons
Tuesday, 6th April, 1943
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
India (Governors' Allowances And Privileges) (Amendment) Order
The VICE-CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSEHOLD (Mr. BOULTON) reported His Majesty's Answer to the Address as followeth:
I have received your Address praying that the Government of India ( Governors' Allowances and Privileges) ( Amendment) Order, 1943, be made in the form of the Draft laid before Parliament.
I will comply with your request.
Death Of A Member
Mr. SPEAKER made the following communication to the House:
I regret to have to inform the House of the death of William George Howard Gritten, Esquire, Member for the Borough of The Hartlepools, and I desire, on behalf of the House, to express our sense of the loss we have sustained and our sympathy with the relatives of the honourable Member.
Private Business
Liverpool Hydraulic Power Bill Lords
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
Oral Answers To Questions
Trade And Commerce
Concentration Of Industry
1.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will consider taking steps to prevent the entrance into concentrated industries of new manufacturers until such time as concentrated firms have been enabled to re- start their plants and reorganise their pre-war activities?
I would refer my hon. Friend to paragraph 3 of Command Paper 6258 of March, 1941, and also to the statement made in this House on 27th March, 1941, by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Production—who was then President of the Board of Trade—a copy of which I am sending him.
Is the Minister aware that he is now being asked to put a curb on private enterprise?
Manufacturers' Substitutes
2.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will take steps to make it illegal for manufacturers to offer a substitute for a rationed article unless it has first been approved by his Ministry?
I do not know what substitutes my hon. Friend has in mind, but, if he will let me have particulars, I will be glad to consider whether any action is necessary.
New Suits (Pockets)
3.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether it is by his direction that officials of his Department are requiring the public, when ordering new suits, to state the uses to which coat, waistcoat and hip pockets in trousers are to be applied; and whether he will leave these matters to the discretion of the wearers?
My hon. Friend has been misinformed. The present restrictions on the number of pockets are part of the regulations applied since May, 1942, in order to save material and labour. Where new suits are made with the permitted number of pockets, no inquiries as to the use of these are necessary, and none are made. Applications for additional pockets for special reasons are, however, sometimes made to my Department, and, before granting permission, it is the duty of my officers to satisfy themselves that the application is justified.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that this sort of thing brings his Department into public ridicule?
No, Sir. I have told my hon. Friend that he is misinformed in making the statement for which he takes responsibility. I have read a certain weekly newspaper, not always uniformly truthful, from which I think he derives his information. That information is inaccurate.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the full text of the Board of Trade's letter was published in that journal?
Yes, Sir, but the point I have been endeavouring to make clear is that such inquiries are made only in exceptional cases. The suggestion conveyed in this newspaper was that they are always made. I will give an illustration of the sort of exception that is made. Supposing that my hon. Friend were to lose his hearing, and wished to carry a deaf-aid on his person, it would be perfectly proper—and this often happens—for an application to be made to the Board of Trade for a special licence for an additional pocket in the waistcoat, to carry the instrument in. That is a perfectly good example.
Textile Machinery
5.
asked the President of the Board of Trade the total value of textile machinery rendered idle by war conditions and exported to foreign countries; the countries of destination; and whether he is considering the effects of this on post-war employment in the Lancashire cotton industry in particular?
There have been no exports of textile machinery rendered idle as a result of the concentration of the cotton industry.
Alarm Clocks
6.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the difficulty experienced by mine-workers in the purchase of alarm clocks, upon which they rely in the mornings; and, in view of the importance of absenteeism regarding the production of coal, whether he will take action to provide a supply of these clocks in mining areas?
As I informed my hon. Friend the Member for Everton (Mr. Kirby) on 19th January last, before the war nearly all our alarm clocks were imported. I am glad to say that arrangements have now been made, with the aid of my right hon. and gallant Friend the Minister Resident in Washington for Supply, for limited supplies to be imported from North America. I am considering, in consultation with other Departments concerned and also with the Trades Union Congress, the best methods of distribution.
Will regard be had in the distribution of these clocks to industries where men start work at one or two o'clock in the morning?
Yes, Sir, it is quite clear that in some industries the need is greater than in others. It is in order to get the best distribution of supplies that I am having these consultations.
Have any supplies reached this country? Some months ago the right hon. Gentleman said that arrangements had then been made for imports of such clocks.
A first instalment of some 10,000 United States clocks is now on the way.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that in many of these districts where the old-fashioned idea of the caller-up is not in existence at present, that makes the demand for alarm clocks greater?
Yes, Sir, I appreciate that.
Six-Valve Wireless Sets (Price)
7.
asked the President of the Board of Trade the average price of six-valve wireless sets in Cairo and London, respectively?
I am informed that the average price, including Purchase Tax, of six-valve wireless sets in London is about £16. I have no information about the price of such sets in Cairo.
Would my right hon. Friend make the necessary investigations to see what price the troops are having to pay in Cairo? I believe it is something like 100 per cent. in excess of the English price.
My hon. Friend will appreciate that I have no jurisdiction to fix prices in Cairo.
Matches
8.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether there is available an adequate supply of matches; and what steps have been taken to ensure a fair distribution to householders?
Supplies of matches have been maintained at the present level for some time and are, I think, generally sufficient to meet requirements. Supplies to dealers are based on pre-war distribution, modified in accordance with movements of population.
What redress has a householder if the retailer he is registered with says that he cannot supply him?
He can go to another retailer.
Socks, Shirts And Pullovers (Home Guard)
9.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will consider the question of making a supply of socks, shirts and pullovers available for the Home Guard; and, if this is not possible, will he consider an issue of extra coupons for the said articles?
Essential uniform, including battledress, greatcoat and boots, is already issued coupon-free by the War Office to Home Guards who are not compelled to purchase special shirts, socks or pullovers for military use. I regret, therefore, that in view of the increasing stringency of supplies, I cannot justify a coupon-free supply, or an issue of coupons for these articles.
While thanking my right hon. Friend for his answer, might I ask whether he is aware that in many cases lads in the Home Guard are using up their socks very quickly, and that this creates a great disturbance in the home in regard to the supply of socks?
I should be extremely glad to do anything to ease the position, but here, as elsewhere, I am up against a shortage of supplies. The Home Guard do get from the War Office their uniforms, coupon free, which is a great assistance to the household wardrobe.
Will the right hon. gentleman bear in mind that the boots which he mentioned as being coupon free are the very things which wear the socks out more quickly?
Will the right hon. Gentleman see what can be done about getting an issue of free socks?
British Prisoners Of War
11.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he has received any official information on the German plan to transfer British war prisoners to Russian prison camps?
No, Sir. The rumour to which my hon. and gallant Friend is alluding was mentioned in a broadcast from a French station, which stated that, according to an Italian newspaper, the correspondent of a Swedish newspaper stationed in Berlin had reported that such a transfer was thought to be likely in what are described as "usually well-informed German circles."
Is it hot a fact that this Paris broadcasting station is under the orders of the Germans, and is it not also a fact that the same statement was published in a German-controlled Paris newspaper?
I am very grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend for the information, but my answer is the same. I have no information beyond that to which he refers.
17.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will ask the Protecting Power to inquire into conditions in Camp P.G.5 in Italy, where prisoners of war are only permitted to exercise in a small courtyard for a few minutes daily?
This camp was last visited by a representative of the Protecting Power in January of this year. The reports received confirm that the facilities for exercise are not satisfactory although they have improved and are not as deficient as my hon. and gallant Friend suggests. Prisoners have unrestricted access to two small courtyards of 600 and 900 square yards from reveille to 2 p.m. and between 4 p.m. and 7 p.m. During the autumn walking parties for about 12 officers were arranged twice or three times a week and the Italian Government have ordered a playing field to be prepared. Representations were made by the Protecting Power direct to the Italian authorities in addition to the protest through diplomatic channels to which I referred on 6th October last.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that I have had a letter from a prisoner in that camp who says that he has only been allowed to go for one walk in the eight months during which he has been there and that other conditions in that camp are disgraceful; that it is a converted prison, that the prisoners are confined in cells; that the chief article of food is cabbage and that the sanitary arrangements are disgraceful?
As I said in my answer, not having in my mind all the horrible details to which my hon. and gallant Friend has referred, the conditions are not satisfactory, and representations have been made through the Protecting Power.
Is it not the duty of the War Office to look after our prisoners of war without waiting for questions like this to be brought to their attention?
That has been done constantly, and I do not know what the hon. Member means by saying that it is not. The War Office are extremely anxious and careful to do everything they possibly can for the welfare of our prisoners.
Is it not true that His Holiness the Pope was supposed to look after our prisoners in Italy, and could we not ask our representative at the Vatican to look into the matter?
Can my right hon. Friend say what is the result of the inquiries into statements made by repatriated men in Cairo that the feeding was disgraceful and contrary to the Geneva Convention?
18.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that a charge of lire 8.60 per day with retrospective effect from 1st July, 1942, is being imposed for the hire of furniture and cutlery on the 162 officers in Camp P.G.5; that this charge amounts to £560 per month at lire 72 to the £, being more than the original value of the articles; whether these charges are reciprocal to charges imposed on Italian prisoners of war in Britain; and whether he will make inquiries through the Protecting Power?
I cannot at present add anything to the reply I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge University (Prof. A. V. Hill) on 16th February. The question has been taken up with the Protecting Power.
Is this charge similar to any charge imposed on Italian prisoners in this country?
I would rather not answer that question without notice. I do not think so, but I would not like to be committed.
Would my right hon. Friend be able to give an answer next week if I put down another Question?
I will give an answer before then; I will send my hon. and gallant Friend the answer.
British Army
Court-Martial Sentence
The following Question stood upon the Order Paper in the name of Sir JOHN WARDLAW-MILNE:
13. To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will reconsider the decision of the Military Court regarding W. C. Wood, paymaster of a certain detachment, Royal Army Pay Corps, who was dismissed the service as a result of a court-martial held on 2nd September, 1942, in view of the fact that this officer, although arrested on a charge relating to 22nd July, 1942, was tried on one relating to the 18th of that month; that the charge of 22nd July was dropped; that the accused, was ordered to be examined by a civilian medical practitioner although three medical boards had graded him permanently in category C; that the summary of evidence was taken when the defendant could not call witnesses; that the course that Lieutenant Wood began and subsequently discontinued was voluntary and no action was taken against absentees; and that the trial generally was conducted in an unsatisfactory manner?
I think hon. Members have been asked to try to keep Questions down to 10 lines, as far as possible. This one covers 12 lines.
This is one of the few Questions, Sir, which I think could not be put in shorter terms, to give the right hon. Gentleman a chance of answering it.
The proceedings of the court-martial have been carefully reviewed, and I am advised that the trial was conducted fairly according to law. I see no reason for reconsideration. The answer to the first five parts of my hon. Friend's Question is necessarily rather long, and I will, with his permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
It is difficult to ask a Supplementary Question without knowing the full reply, but do I understand from the reply, to the extent my right hon. Friend has given it, that it is not his intention to reconsider this matter, bearing in mind the fact that this man, who served in the last war and volunteered for this war, has been dismissed with ignominy from the Army for the terrible crime of refusing to undergo a fourth medical examination when he had three times been passed category C?
It would be better if my hon. Friend would read the very much longer answer I am proposing to circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT. As regards his first Supplementary Question the matter has received extremely careful consideration, not only by the General Officer Commanding of the Command, but by the Judge-Advocate-General and by the Army Council, and I personally see no reason for further reconsideration.
In view of the fact that some time ago the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill), before he was Prime Minister, had a Question down that took up half a page on the Order Paper, am I to understand, Mr. Speaker, that since then a recommendation has been made that Questions should be confined to a certain length, as I have not heard of that before?
It is important, in order to save paper and for other reasons, to limit the length of Questions as much as possible.
Following is the answer:
Lieutenant W. C. Wood, Royal Army Pay Corps, was tried by General Court-Martial on 2nd September, 1942, and found guilty on a charge of disobeying a
lawful command in that he on 18th July, 1942, having been ordered by his commanding officer to be medically examined, refused to be so examined by the medical officer. He was sentenced to be dismissed from His Majesty's Service. The proceedings were confirmed by the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Western Command, and promulgated on 23rd September, 1942. Lieutenant Wood was charged on arrest with disobeying an order to attend a parade on 22nd July. It was afterwards decided to try him on a charge of disobeying a previous order on 18th July. There is nothing unusual in trying a person on a different charge from that preferred on arrest.
The commanding officer commanded him to be medically examined, not in order to seek to override the finding of the medical boards, but to ascertain whether the accused was fit to go upon parade. The command was a lawful one and the accused was bound by the Army Act to obey it. If he felt himself wronged by his commanding officer he was entitled to submit an appeal, under Section 42 of the Army Act, but instead of doing so he took the law into his own hands. He did not dispute that he had committed an act of disobedience on 18th July, 1942. It is not stated why he could not call witnesses nor can he have been prejudiced at his trial by his failure to do so. The court tried the case on the evidence given orally before them, and not on the summary of evidence. The contention that no action was taken against other absentees from the course which Lieutenant Wood began but discontinued is not relevant to the charge on which the accused was tried, namely, that he disobeyed a lawful command on 18th July, 1942.
Billeting Allowance
14.
asked the Secretary of State for War the date on which the billeting allowance for soldiers was fixed at 6d. per night?
This rate has been in force since the beginning of the last war.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that since 1914 there has been a very great difference in the cost of the various items required in connection with billeting, and will he take steps to go into the matter and have it adjusted to an economic level?
I gather that there have been adjustments in the food part of the billeting allowance, and I will consider whether the rent allowance also needs re-consideration.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether billeted soldiers still receive beer money as in Victorian times?
Sentences On Officers (Review)
16.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether it is the rule to review, every three months, as in the case of other ranks, the sentences of officers who are imprisoned in a civil prison as the result of trial by military court-martial; and whether it is the practice to call up such individuals for military service upon their release after having served their sentence?
A sentence of imprisonment imposed on an officer is usually reviewed in the War Office within a few weeks of its promulgation and thereafter every six months from the beginning of the sentence. I am informed that the answer to the last part of the Question is "Yes, Sir."
In cases where the sentences were imposed for something akin to an indiscretion, will the right hon. Gentleman consider a further remission to enable these ex-officers to go and fight overseas?
The particular case to which the hon. Member refers—which is a case with which I am very familiar—was a great deal worse than an indiscretion.
Does the date of calling-up papers coincide with the date of release from prison?
I cannot say.
Rifle Range, Warrington
20.
asked the Secretary of State for War under what Defence of the Realm Regulation he has authorised the resumption of firing on the rifle range at Orford Barracks, Warrington, notwithstanding that such range has been condemned; and whether he is prepared to assume financial responsibility for injuries to civilians resident in the neighbourhood and for damage to property caused by the resumption of such firing?
The range is on War Department land, and no recourse to Defence Regulations is necessary for the Army to use it. It has always been considered safe by the competent military authorities, and no accident seems likely to occur either to civilian residents in the neighbourhood or to their property. I understand that children cannot now enter the danger area of the range while it is being used. But if injury or damage is done and if it is established that it is due to the negligence of military personnel on duty, a claim for compensation will be considered in the normal way. I much regret the inconvenience from noise caused to local inhabitants by firing on this range. Unfortunately the needs of training make it unavoidable. I hope, however, that it will be possible to restrict firing to certain fixed times and so limit the inconvenience as far as possible.
Can we really have a war without inconvenience?
Headquarters Staff, Cairo
21.
asked the Secretary of State for War the percentage reduction in the staff of General Headquarters, Middle East Force, since the formation of Allied Group Headquarters?
I regret that the percentage is not readily available.
In view of the problem of man-power and the change in the military situation, is it not timely now to review the very considerable force of staff officers at Cairo?
This is a question which is continually under review.
If my right hon. Friend is not able to give the percentage, can he give, at any rate, the assurance that some reduction has taken place in the headquarters staff?
The process of adjusting the staff and the Forces in the Middle East to the military tasks which they are called upon to perform is one which is going on constantly.
Will the Secretary of State for War give an undertaking that the staff at Cairo is reviewed at an early date?
As I said, the review is constantly going on, and in fact papers relating to the question are on my table now.
Troops, North Africa (Reading Matter)
22.
asked the Secretary of State for War what steps he is taking to increase the supply of reading matter to troops fighting in Tunisia?
I regret that no shipping space could be allocated for books and magazines until the military stores and equipment vitally needed for operations in North Africa had been despatched. On 1st February over 100,000 books and over 10,000 magazines and journals were despatched. Since then consignments have been sent regularly at the rate of about 10,000 books and 9,500 magazines and journals a month. I hope, therefore, that the First Army will shortly have a good supply of reading matter. The Eighth Army is supplied with reading matter from the Middle East; 21,000 books and over 70,000 magazines and journals have for some time been despatched to the Middle East every month. I fully appreciate the need of the soldier for as much reading matter as possible and the supplies now being sent will be increased if shipping space is available and if sufficient books and magazines are forthcoming. I take this opportunity of expressing the Army's thanks to all those who have sent books and magazines for the use of the troops. The demand is as great as ever, and I am sure we may count on the continued help of the public in meeting it.
While appreciating the great work which has been done in this connection, may I ask the Minister whether he is aware that in February there was a very great shortage of reading matter among the troops of the Eighth Army and that this plays a vital part in maintaining morale between battles?
I would not accept the view that it was the most vital part, although I agree it is a vital part. As I have said, conditions of shipping from time to time make for a certain inequality in the despatch of materials to the Middle East.
Will the Minister bear in mind the question of quality of reading matter as well as quantity?
That is in the hands of a body—I have forgotten its full designation—which pays particular attention to that sort of thing.
Will the Minister make application to the headquarters of the Communist Party so that instead of sending a good supply of reading matter he will be able to send a supply of good reading matter?
Route Marches (Bands)
23.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider arranging for formal route marches to take place periodically through the nearest towns to military camps accompanied by military bands?
This is done whenever opportunities occur. But most route marching is done as part of the unit's operational training. The bandsmen are then employed on their operational duties, and no band accompanies the unit.
While I dislike harping on this subject, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that this arrangement of bands accompanying troops who are in the public eye is good for the troops themselves and most invigorating for civilians?
I quite agree, but I should not put it down as the most important part of troops' training.
Will the Minister bear in mind the fact that a great number of men who are working on munitions at night have to sleep in the day-time?
Coastal Areas (Restrictions)
25.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether, as the uncertainty regarding the sudden imposition of a ban on access to protected areas within 10 miles of the coast will have a disastrous effect on the economic life of many places of residence and business, he will endeavour to arrange some system of notification which will at least enable those both inside and outside the areas in question to ascertain how they are likely to stand within the next 24 hours?
I much regret the effects these restrictions may have in the areas concerned, and I can assure my hon. Friend that the Army will endeavour to cause as little interference as possible with the normal life of the residents in those areas. The restrictions will be imposed for strictly military reasons, and although as much notice as possible will be given locally in each case, I regret that no guarantee can be given of the length of this notice.
While I thank my right hon. Friend for his answer, and while nobody wishes to give information to the enemy, would he not agree that in order to save travel and disturbance to people generally there ought to be some method by which people can get to know whether a ban is on or not?
Home Guard Munition Dumps, Manchester
26.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that quantities of ammunition, including hand grenades, have been stolen from Home Guard dumps in Manchester; and will he cause instructions to be issued to all Home Guard units to take greater care in the storage of arms and ammunition in the interest of public safety?
24.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Home Guard munition dumps in the Manchester area have recently been broken into by children and bombs and hand grenades stolen causing great anxiety to parents and police authorities; and will he give instructions for better storage or a more adequate guard?
I have called for a report, and when I receive it will consider what further action is necessary. But clear instructions for the safeguarding of Home Guard ammunition stores have already been issued to Home Guard commanders.
Does that also apply to clothing and equipment?
I should think so.
Soldiers Overseas (Marriage)
27.
asked the Secretary of State for War what representations have been made to him by welfare organisations regarding marriage of soldiers serving overseas and individuals resident in this country; and whether he can make any statement on this matter?
I have seen some representations on this subject that were made to the Commander-in-Chief of the Middle East Forces by the local advisory committee of a welfare organisation. These representations have received careful consideration, but I regret that it is not possible to make any statement on the matter at the moment.
Is the Minister taking any further action on those representations? Can he say whether he will be in a position to make a statement later?
It is not for me to make a statement. Mine is only one Department of those concerned in this matter.
Will the Minister answer the first part of my Supplementary Question? Is he taking action on those representations?
I have taken all the action which is appropriate to me for the time being.
Medical Examination (Female Medical Officers)
28.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether soldiers can be compelled to submit to a medical examination by female medical officers?
A soldier may be compelled to be medically examined whether the examination is carried out by a male or a female doctor.
Is the Minister aware that this is not a matter of amusement for a large number of soldiers who object to it? Is it compulsory for a soldier to undergo a routine medical inspection by a female medical officer when a male medical officer is available? Further, does this rule apply to officers as well as to other ranks?
Is the hon. Member desirous of having these sensitive men nursed by male nurses? Is it not in the interests of all that the best person available should do the job?
The Question I was asked was as to the legality of this and not as to its expediency. I have answered the Question as to the legality and not as to the expediency.
Mine was a perfectly legitimate Supplementary. I am asking the Minister whether it is legal when there is present a male medical officer who can conduct the examination?
Major-General Sir Percy Laurie
29.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in considering the appointment of Major-General Sir P. R. Laurie as Provost Marshal of Great Britain, he was aware that Sir Percy was chairman of the Divisional Conservative and Unionist Association for the area where he resides; and whether he can give an assurance that he is no longer actively engaged in party politics?
Sir Percy Laurie was appointed Provost Marshal in 1940. I understand that he ceased to be chairman of the Divisional Conservative and Unionist Association in 1939. There is, moreover, no record that he has since then been actively engaged in party politics.
Scotland
Housing, Clydebank
30.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that the housing shortage in Clydebank is so great that men engaged on urgent war production are unable to house their families; and in view of the serious effect of this shortage on the health of the children, will he arrange for priority to be given to the housing needs of such families?
My right hon. Friend understands that the town council give special consideration to the claims of homeless war workers in the letting of any houses under their control and that they have come to an arrangement with the property owners under which a preference is given to such workers as respects the letting of privately owned houses. As the hon. Member has already been informed, my right hon. Friend is prepared in suitable cases to authorise the requisitioning of privately owned houses for war workers and their families. In addition, special arrangements have been made under which Clydebank workers who have lost their homes and are unable to obtain suitable accommodation in Clydebank may be found accommodation in Glasgow.
Is my hon. Friend aware that people in Clydebank are refusing to go into the slums of Glasgow?
I am aware that in some cases they have declined to go to the houses that have been requisitioned for them, but not in all cases of refusal have the properties been in slum areas.
Is my hon. Friend aware that there is no surplus accommodation in Glasgow for anyone? People are crying out for houses and, in many parts, are living in horrible conditions.
Is my hon. Friend aware that the policy of transferring people to Glasgow is making the position terribly acute and that it is no solution for the people of Clydebank, as it only makes the position more intolerable? It is disgraceful.
31.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has considered the typical cases of hardship to the families of Service men and war workers resulting from the housing shortage in Clydebank, which have been sent to him by the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs; and whether he will take steps to relieve these and similar cases?
Inquiries are being made into the cases referred to by the hon. Member, and my right hon. Friend will communicate with him as soon as these inquiries have been completed.
Is it not the case that there are very many large houses around the area that could be taken over by the Secretary of State for Scotland and put to use to serve the needs of some of these families?
The Secretary of State has given full powers to the local authorities to requisition the houses which they consider to be desirable for the purpose of accommodating our people.
Crofters (Dr Fraser Darling's Visits)
33.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that the services of the naturalist and crofter, Dr. Fraser Darling, are only to be available for visits and demonstrations to those crofters situated between Moidart, in Inverness-shire, and Kinlochbervie, in Sutherlandshire; and whether he will take steps for the crofters of Argyllshire also to benefit from Dr. Fraser Darling's visits and demonstrations?
Dr. Fraser Darling's appoinment is on a part-time basis only, and in view of this I am afraid it will not be possible for him to cover the wide territory suggested in the hon. Member's Question. It is hoped that through the medium of articles in the local Press Dr. Darling will be able to give advice to crofters outside the 100-mile long area in which he will presently operate.
Dairy Cattle (Diseases)
34.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has considered the request from the Scottish Association of Certified and Tuberculin-Tested Milk Producers, calling attention to the inadequate scientific research being made into the causes and treatment of diseases in dairy cattle, and asking that a Scottish research organisation should be set up; and what action he proposes to take?
35.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has given consideration to the resolution recently sent to him by the Scottish Association of Certified and Tuberculin-tested Milk Producers concerning scientific research into the causes and probable cure of mastitis; and what action he is proposing to take in the matter?
My right hon. Friend has recently received the communication from the Association to which the hon. Members refer and is giving it careful consideration. In the meantime I should point out that research into cattle diseases, including mastitis, is being actively pursued with financial assistance from the Government under the general guidance of the Agricultural Research Council at various centres in Scotland and elsewhere. It is clearly desirable that investigations on these diseases, wherever they are carried out, should be closely co-ordinated, and this is ensured by the existing arrangements. In Scotland the Council work in association with the Scottish Board of Research in Veterinary Science, which includes in its membership eight Professors of the Science Faculties of Scottish Universities and six leading members of the veterinary profession in Scotland.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that those who are trying to provide disease-free milk should be given encouragement and that they are of opinion that the research is not sufficiently comprehensive, and would it not be a good thing to turn some fresh minds to this particular question?
My right hon. Friend is fully seized of the importance of this subject, which is constantly under review, but the hon. Lady will appreciate the difficulties of getting hold of the right people at this stage of the war.
Is my hon. Friend aware that of the four main diseases affecting dairy cattle, mastitis is the most deadly, and that the laboratory facilities existing in Scotland at the present time are quite inadequate to deal effectively with this disease, and will he not consider, in the interests of public health in Scotland, setting up the organisation that was suggested in the resolution to which the hon. Lady has referred?
I am fully aware of the importance of dealing with mastitis, which is a deadly scourge, but I must point out that there are great difficulties in increasing research facitilies in war-time, although we are doing all that we can.
Fuel And Power
Point Of Ayr Collieries (Control)
37.
asked the Minister of Fuel and Power why he has found it necessary to take over the control of the Point of Ayr Collieries, Ffynnongroew, Flintshire?
38.
asked the Minister of Fuel and Power what the reasons were for the issue of the Order to take over the Ffynnongroew Colliery, Flintshire, from the Point of Ayr Collieries, Limited; whether any criticisms had been made of its management; whether he is aware that it had the highest output per man of all the collieries in North Wales and the best safety record, and had been free from stoppages since the great coal strike of 1924; and whether his attention has been directed to the comments of Mr. Justice Singleton in giving judgment in the appeal against the vesting order?
43.
asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether, in view of Mr. Justice Singleton's remarks on the imposition of control on the Point of Ayr Colliery, he will now remove this control?
44.
asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether his attention has been called to the comments made by the learned Judge in the case of Point of Ayr Collieries, Limited, versus Lloyd George and others; and whether he still intends to take over the control of the colliery?
62.
asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether his attention has been called to the remarks of Mr. Justice Singleton in the case of the Point of Ayr Collieries, Limited, versus Lloyd George and others; and what action he intends to take?
63.
asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he can make any statement as to the output and degree of efficiency of the Point of Ayr Colliery in Flintshire prior to taking over control of that undertaking; how its efficiency compared with other pits of the same character; what increase of efficiency there has been since it was taken over; and whether he can make a short statement as to the reason for this change of control?
64.
asked the Minister of Fuel and Power what was the condition of affairs at the Point of Ayr Colliery which decided him to place this colliery under his own control?
65.
asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he is aware that the High Court Judge who tried the case of Point of Ayr Collieries, Limited, against Lloyd George and others, indicated in his judgment that in making a Control Order his Department appeared to have acted both lightly, unfairly and without good cause; what safeguards or rights of appeal are available in such an event; and what action he proposes to take?
The decision to take control of this undertaking, whose technical efficiency has never been in dispute, was only reached after the most careful consideration, lasting many months. There has been considerable friction, extending over several years, in the North Wales coalfield as a result of the refusal of the undertaking to agree to the request of the North Wales and Border Counties Mine Workers' Association to be allowed the same facilities on behalf of its members at this colliery as are allowed to the Association at all the other collieries in the district. My hon. Friends will appreciate that the co-operation of all engaged in the industry is vital to the war effort. Repeated attempts have been made to remove the causes of this friction by my Department. The North Wales Coal-owners' Association have also done everything in their power to assist; this resulted in the resignation of the Point of Ayr Collieries from the Coalowners' Association.
During my visit to the district last autumn, I realised that the situation was becoming worse, and I was seriously perturbed as to the effect it would have on production in the whole district. Since then I have kept in constant touch with my Regional Controller in the North Western area. His reports showed quite clearly that the situation was becoming steadily worse. I further received in the middle of January last a confidential report from Sir John Forster, who had been appointed, at my request, by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service to make an independent investigation. Sir John came to the conclusion that if the causes of the friction were not removed there might be trouble throughout the North Wales coalfield. Accordingly it became my duty to consider whether this situation might not seriously affect the production of coal. I decided that having regard to all the history of this matter there was no means of bringing the friction to an end, other than by taking control of the undertaking under Defence Regulation 55 (4). While I am willing at any time to consider removing the control, I must first be satisfied that the danger to the war effort, which led me to impose it, has been removed and will not recur. I am not so satisfied at present. My attention has been called to the comments of Mr. Justice Singleton. I was advised that as the Courts had no jurisdiction to consider the reasonableness of my Order, and as my responsibility in this matter was to Parliament, and in particular to this House, it would not be correct, either legally or constitutionally, for evidence to be submitted to the Court as to my reasons for making this Order. A submission to this effect was made to Mr. Justice Singleton by the Solicitor-General and no evidence was therefore called on my behalf. The learned Judge decided the case in my favour, on the ground that I was the responsible person and that I had the right to make this Order. Mr. Justice Singleton's comments on my conduct were, therefore, made in the absence of any evidence on my behalf and it is, I think, right that I should add that the learned Judge made it clear that these comments were outside his province in the case.Is it not a fact that the relationships between the employers and the employees have been most cordial at this colliery and that there has been no stoppage there since 1926, which is unique not only in the history of this region but in the history of pits throughout the whole country?
That has nothing to do with the point I made, which was that there are in this colliery a large number of men who belong to a union and who desire the same rights at this colliery as are available in every other colliery throughout the country. My only interest is to see that everybody is treated alike.
Will my right hon. and gallant Friend really tell us specifically what was the reason for this action?
If my hon. Friend will read my answer to-morrow, he will find the reason there, and that is the only reason, and I have nothing to add to what I have said.
Will my right hon. and gallant Friend tell us in what specific cases this colliery company has not provided facilities for the Miners' Federation?
I could not do that by means of question and answer, but I can assure my hon. Friend that I have given more attention to this matter than to any other single administrative item since I have been in the Department, I could give many instances where there have been both discourtesy and provocation.
Can my right hon. and gallant Friend give us the percentage of the men concerned whom he referred to as a large number?
It is an increasing number, and I will say that at this moment it is over 50 per cent. of those engaged in colliery work.
Are we to understand from the Minister's reply, contrary to what has been stated, that the management of that pit had an opportunity of making representations to the Minister before he availed himself of this power?
They have had plenty of opportunity over a good many years, and I can assure my hon. Friend that of all the people concerned in this dispute no one knows the reason for this action better than does the colliery management.
Was not the Minister's action entirely contrary to the intention of the Regulation, even if it was within the legal limits?
No, Sir. The purpose of making this Regulation was to safeguard the safety of the Realm and to ensure that supplies were not endangered. I was satisfied, after the most careful consideration, that supplies would be endangered if some action was not taken.
In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I intend to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.
Use Of Petrol (Whitefields Patient)
39.
asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he will investigate the circumstances under which, owing to the action of the Barrow-in-Furness local authority in refusing the use of their ambulance to a Whitefields patient, petrol was wasted in a 200 miles journey, of which the full facts have been sent to him?
Yes, Sir.
Youths (Underground Work, Mines)
40, 41 and 42.
asked the Minister of Fuel and Power (1) on what authority he has issued the instruction for youths who work at pit tops to be directed to underground work in the mines;
(2) what rights of appeal a youth who works at a pit top has against a direction to proceed to underground working; and is the pit production committee consulted before such direction is issued; (3) whether he will take into consideration the position of lads who are employed at pit tops and are compelled to proceed to underground in the mines with a view to giving them the same option of choice, between service with His Majesty's Forces or the mines, as is given to lads in other forms of employment?In giving directions, under powers conferred upon him by Defence Regulation 58A to ensure the most efficient use of the man-power available in the coalmining industry, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service acts in close consultation with me. I have asked him to use his powers in appropriate cases to direct to underground employment surface workers between the ages of 18 and 25 at the date of registration, in order that men who are physically fit and whose work on the surface could be done by older or less fit men might relieve the serious shortage of underground workers. Pit Production Committees are not asked as a general rule to give advice on the cases appropriate for the receipt of directions, but those directed have in every case an opportunity of appeal to local Appeal Boards established by the Ministry of Labour and National Service. In view of the shortage of man-power in the underground occupations and in the age groups to which I have referred, I am not prepared to suggest to my right hon. Friend that such men should be free to choose between work underground or service in His Majesty's Forces.
In view of the fact that it has not been the general practice prior to the war, and in view of the terms of imprisonment to which young men have been sentenced and the great resentment that has been caused in mining areas, and of the danger of making criminals rather than miners, will not the Minister again consider the question?
I do not think I could do that. It is of the greatest urgency to get men to work underground, and I cannot see in these days, when people are sent all over the world, that any real hardship is suffered by people being asked to go underground.
Where lads have been attending technical colleges and training as craftsmen and engineers, is it not reasonable that they should be afforded the opportunity, if they wish it, to join the Royal Air Force, as many of them desire to do?
We shall need more of those very technicians. We have not a surplus at the moment.
Post-War Aircraft Manufacture
46.
asked the Prime Minister whether any decision has been taken by the Government as to whether the manufacture of civil aircraft is or is not to be nationalised after the war; and whether he can give assurances that the House of Commons will be consulted before any final decision is taken and that no wartime measures will be used to prevent existing firms with long and successful experience in this work from resuming it after the war?
His Majesty's Government have taken no decision about the nationalisation after the war of the manufacture of aircraft, whether for civilian or military purposes. I cannot conceive that the Government would embark upon such a policy with all its implications without consulting not only the House but the country. As to the last part of the Question, there is no intention to use the war-time powers to prejudice unjustly any existing firm or their shareholders. Decisions as to the future policy of the State in time of peace must be taken on general grounds and by regular constitutional means and not as a result of the application of war-time measures in particular instances.
Will the Government take immediate practical steps to ensure that shareholders will be able to get their property back through having the shares which the Government have taken over registered in their names, or some other practical measure of that sort?
I have nothing to add to my answer.
Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that we shall have no civil aircraft at all after the war unless we prepare our designs now?
As the Emergency Powers Act will last until His Majesty by Proclamation declares the present emergency at an end and as, judging by the precedent of the last war, that may not happen until two years after the termination of hostilities, can we have some assurance that emergency powers will not be used for exceptional purposes after the termination of hostilities?
Our policy is everything for the war and, after the war is won, fair, free review under normal political conditions.
Business Of The House (Scotland)
47.
asked the Prime Minister whether he will allocate more time for the discussion of Scottish Business or, alternately, will he arrange for the re-establishment of the Scottish Grand Committee for the discussion of purely Scottish Business?
48.
asked the Prime Minister whether he has any statement to make on the allocation of time for Scottish Business?
I am not aware of any ground for reconsidering at present the time allotted to the discussion of purely Scottish Business, which does not appear to have suffered restriction in comparison with other Business of the House as a result of war-time conditions. In the present abnormal circumstances the Government feel it impracticable to refer Bills to Standing Committees, for reasons which will be readily understood in all quarters of the House.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the Scottish Grand Committee could meet in Scotland on Monday, do its business, travel on Monday night and submit the result to the House on Tuesday? Would not that be an advantage, in view of the way Business is all cluttered up at present?
Whether it would be an advantage or not I cannot now discuss, but it certainly does not arise out of the Question.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that all that we are after is justice for Scotland?
It is the most earnest desire of the Government that justice in the fullest measure should be given to that gallant nation.
Would it be too much to ask that the two hon. Members should concentrate their attention exclusively on Scottish affairs?
Could we have a day set apart for English affairs?
National Finance
Government-Acquired Private Undertakings (Post-War Disposal)
49.
asked the Prime Minister whether he will give an assurance that it is the intention of the Government eventually to restore to private enterprise undertakings which have been purchased by the State in the name of increased war production?
53.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider a procedure whereby, in cases where the shares of a firm are compulsorily acquired under war-time measures without the consent of the shareholders, they should be held in trust during the war and, after the war, offered to the former shareholders at a price fixed by a similar procedure to that whereby they were acquired?
I have been asked to reply. I am not clear precisely for what purpose my hon. Friend the Member for East Fulham (Mr. Astor) suggests the creation of a trust. Where shares are acquired to secure effective control of an undertaking they are transferred to the Treasury Solicitor and held by him on behalf of the Government. The disposal of the shares cannot be very well dis- sociated from the larger question of disposal of property and assets of various kinds acquired or created by the Government during the war. On this point, as I informed my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth on 1st April (Sir A. Russell), the question is receiving preliminary study, but decisions as to the scope and method of such disposals will depend upon a variety of circumstances and considerations which cannot be fully assessed at the present time, including, of course, the possibility of changes in the nature and value of the assets while they have been in Government hands.
Is it not a fact that the trade unions have received from the Government a formal assurance as to the restitution of their proper rights after hostilities, and does not my right hon. Friend think that both equity and constitutional government demand that a similar assurance should be given to private enterprise?
I think the Prime Minister has covered a good deal of that in his reply.
Will my right hon. Friend give existing shareholders receipts for the shares when they are taken over, so that they will be able to put forward a claim for them subsequently?
I will consider that.
Post-War Monetary Policy
51.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the numerous pronouncements on reserve banking emanating from the United States of America, he will give an assurance that it is not the intention of His Majesty's Government to participate in the establishment of a world reserve bank; and whether he is now in a position to give some further indication of their proposed actions to ensure the necessary flow of credit to restore industry and commerce at the conclusion of hostilities?
I think my hon. Friend might find it convenient to await the publication of the White Paper, which will indicate the way in which this subject is being examined and which will be available to Members to-morrow.
Does not my right hon. Friend realise one central and vital fact that the only true solution of this prob- lem is the establishment of social and economic justice?
58.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, before this country is committed to any proposals for post-war stabilisation of currency, which the coming conference in the United States of America of finance ministers, or their representatives, of the United Nations might recommend, he will give this House an assurance that they will have an opportunity to debate the recommendations?
If it is the general desire of the House to have a Debate on this and other aspects of post-war monetary policy after the publication of the forthcoming White Paper, I have no doubt that such a proposal would receive careful consideration.
If we accept the American plan for currency stabilisation in full, will it not ultimately result in Britain losing her monetary freedom, and do the Government give it support?
I would ask my hon. Friend to see the American plan before making any criticisms.
Does the answer mean that the Debate is to take place in circumstances in which no commitments have been entered into?
I would ask my hon. Friend to await the publication of the White Paper to-morrow, when he will see that question answered.
Is there any truth in the rumour that the Chancellor will increase the Income Tax?
59.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his representatives at the conference called by the Secretary of the United States Treasury, will be authorised to submit to the conference for discussion the post-war currency proposals formulated by his advisers?
I would ask my hon. Friend to await the publication of the White Paper.
60.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will publish the names of those who will represent the Treasury at the conference to which the Secretary of State of the United States Treasury has invited them, together with representatives of the United Nations, to discuss currency stabilisation and other post-war monetary plans?
The present informal discussions with experts in the Departments of the United States Government are being conducted, in the ordinary course of business, by a responsible official of the Treasury, who is stationed in Washington. If arrangements are made for a more formal conference, His Majesty's Government will consider whether any additional representation is desirable.
Earned Income From United States (Double Taxation)
52.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that persons resident in this country who are in receipt of an earned income from the United States of America are liable to American as well as British Income Tax, amounting in all to 13s. in the £; and whether, in view of the need to encourage by every possible means this type of importation of dollars, he will consider giving such persons a proportional rebate on their British tax to bring them into line with the rest of the British taxpayers?
The provisions of our law relating to relief from double taxation do not extend to earned income that may be subject to both United States Income Tax and United Kingdom Income Tax, but the United States tax would generally be allowed as a deduction in computing the income chargeable to United Kingdom tax. I am not clear as to the type of case which my hon. Friend has in mind, and I should be glad if he would furnish me with particulars.
Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the practice of many professional men and women who sell their services or their work to the United States for dollar payments and so incur this double taxation?
Tax Concessions
56.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will issue an indexed list of all concessions of general interest made for Income Tax, Surtax and Excess Profits Tax purposes similar to his Department's recent publication on the Income Tax and Finance Acts, so that information as to these concessions may be readily available to the general public?
As my hon. Friend is doubtless aware, certain matters he refers to have already been the subject of announcement in Parliament, and various taxation pamphlets have also been issued. The Board of Inland Revenue have now under consideration how the work and collection of the Excess Profits Tax can be facilitated by further publicity.
Beveridge Report (Sales)
61.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury how many copies have been sold of the full Report by Sir William Beveridge, the abridged edition of the same and the American edition of the same?
The sales, in round figures, of the full Report are 250,000, of the abridged edition 350,000 and of the American edition 42,000.
Will my hon. Friend tell the House how many of those copies have been read?
Colonies (Economic And Political Reforms)
66.
asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he proposes to consult the Dominion Governments on the question of future economic and political reforms in the British Colonies?
It is the established policy of the Government to consult Dominion Governments on major questions of policy which are of common concern to the whole Empire, including major issues of Colonial policy.
Was General Smuts consulted before the recent declaration on Colonial policy?
I shall have to have notice of that Question.
Afforestation
67.
asked the right hon. and gallant Member for Rye, as representing the Forestry Commissioners, whether he will state for England and Wales and for Scotland, separately, the total area of woodland; the total area under the charge of the Forestry Commission; the planted area under the charge of the Forestry Commission and the areas still to be afforested; and the estimated area in Scotland which is unsuitable for afforestation?
The total area of woodland, in England and Wales, according to the latest estimate is 2,040,000 acres and in Scotland 1,040,000 acres. The total area in England and Wales under the charge of the Forestry Commission is 629,000 acres and in Scotland 603,000. These figures include (a) planted area in England and Wales 325,000 acres and in Scotland 183,000, (b) area still to be afforested in England and Wales 139,000 acres and in Scotland 118,000, and (c) area unsuitable for afforestation 165,000 acres in England and Wales and 302,000 in Scotland of which 280,000 acres are too poor for afforestation.
Are those figures a correction or an amplification of the figures which my right hon. and gallant Friend gave on 2nd February in reply to a Question by the hon. and gallant Member for Argyll (Major McCallum)?
They are a clarification and an amplification.
How much of this is hard wood and how much soft wood?
I could not say without notice.
Business Of The House
In view of the fact that the Committee stage of the Catering Wages Bill was not finished last Thursday, as it was generally assumed it would be, could the Prime Minister make a statement on the course of Business for to-day and the next Sitting Days?
As my right hon. Friend has reminded us, the Committee stage of the Catering Wages Bill was not completed last Thursday, and in consequence we must resume and conclude the Committee stage to-day. We shall also take the Motion to approve the China Clay (Charges) Order.
The Business previously anounced for consideration to-day will be taken on the next Sitting Day, and the Business for the next Sitting Day will be taken on the third Sitting Day. The Debate on Colonial Administration in the West Indies will have to be postponed till a later date. I may say that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, the Leader of the House, has returned quite safely to this country after a most successful mission in the United States. The journey was not without its rigorous aspects, and I thought that it would be advisable that he should have a day or two in the country after the very strenuous time he has been having. He will, however, be ready on the third Sitting Day, if the House will think it convenient, to give an account of his mission which will not be of a controversial character in any way. I trust that the House will welcome that procedure being adopted.In view of the Catering Wages Bill being carried over till to-day, will the Prime Minister seriously consider an extra Sitting Day?
I am not advised that that will be necessary. The Government are always watching the movement of Business to get as much done as possible with the greatest convenience to Members.
The Prime Minister said that the statement of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs will not be controversial. Does that mean that the House will not have an opportunity of discussing it?
That was the idea I was endeavouring tactfully to insinuate.
Shall we have the Prayer in which many hon. Members are greatly interested on the second or third Sitting Day?
The next Sitting Day is the day appointed for the Prayer.
Consolidation Bills
Report from the Joint Committee with Minutes of Evidence in respect of the War Damage Bill [ Lords] (pending in the Lords), brought up and read; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed [No. 73].
Message From The Lords
That they have passed a Bill intituled "An Act to make better provision for regulating the capital of the Grand Union Canal Company, and the administration of their affairs; to confer further powers on the Company, and for other purposes."—[Grand Union Canal Company Bill [ Lords].
Grand Union Canal Company Bill Lords
Read the First time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Business Of The House
Ordered,
"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)".—[The Prime Minister.]
Orders Of The Day
Catering Wages Bill
Considered in Committee [ Progress, 1 st April].
[Major MILNER in the Chair]
Clause 14 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 15—(Orders And Regulations)
I beg to move, in page 11, line 24, to leave out from "and" to the end of the Sub-section, and to insert:
The reason I move this Amendment is that as the Clause stands it is possible for an Order to be laid on the Table for 40 days during part of which time Parliament is not sitting. I think it is only reasonable that Parliament should have sufficient time in which to consider any Order."shall not come into force until each House of Parliament has sat on forty days after the order or regulation has been laid before it, and if either House within the next forty days on which it has sat after the order or regulation has been laid before it resolves that the order or regulation he annulled it shall thenceforth be void but without prejudice to the making of a new order or regulation."
I hope that the Minister will give very careful consideration to this Amendment, because we are drifting rapidly away from the principles of the Rules (Publication) Act, under which there is an elaborate procedure to ensure that before Rules are made they are open to examination and inspection and to give everybody concerned ample opportunities for making representations. Recently, and more particularly under the Emergency Powers Act, where I admit it is necessary for quick action to be taken, an Order has immediate operation before Parliament has had any opportunity to consider it. There cannot be the same urgency in this case, and therefore I think we ought to shift from the basis that the Order comes into operation as soon as the Minister makes it but can subsequently be annulled by a Prayer in Parliament to the basis that it does not come into operation until 40 days-after it has been laid. In that period there will be an opportunity to submit a Prayer and possibly annul the Order before any action is taken. In other words, the House of Commons—in fact, both Houses of Parliament—ought as far as possible to retain effective control over legislation, except where on grounds of urgency that control ought not to be retained. Therefore, I think there is a very powerful case for this Amendment on democratic grounds, because we are drifting much too rapidly in the direction of Fascism. Much of our legislation to-day is in principle essentially Fascist, and I am horrified to see that the least opposition to Fascism comes from hon. Members of the Labour Party, who do not appreciate the real significance of what is happening.
I would ask my hon. and gallant Friend to withdraw his Amendment. I was very careful about this matter, because I knew that I should upset the hon. Member for South Croydon (Sir H. Williams) if I introduced any innovation. This Clause is on the lines of a Clause in a Bill which was passed in 1909, when Fascism had not been heard of.
The right hon. Gentleman appears to forget that syndicalism, of which many trade unions in this country were ardent supporters, is historically a part of Fascism.
Syndicalism had not been adumbrated by Tom Mann when the Bill to which I referred was passed in 1909. It was in 1910; so I want to correct the hon. Member's historical knowledge. In drafting this Clause, I have stuck to the procedure concerning wages board Orders which has been on the Statute Book for many years. I have an additional reason why I think the Amendment should be withdrawn, and that is that I do not think the discussion of wages board Orders is appropriate to the House of Commons unless a wages board really outrages an industry in some way. It has already been agreed that I should have the power to refer back on representations, and all that kind of thing. The greatest care has been taken in this matter, and therefore I would ask the Committee to stick to the Clause, which is in strict conformity with all the minimum wage machinery introduced into Parliament over the last 40 years.
I could not hear all that the Minister was saying, particularly the first part, but I am sure it was a very good speech. I did, however, hear the latter part, and it is on that that I propose to focus my remarks. The Minister based his case largely on precedent. Precedent is an extremely valuable study. We move from precedent to precedent but none the less I think we ought to consider each precedent and see what has been the result. Over the last few years, particularly since the war, we have seen Parliament gradually losing control to some extent. We have seen freedom being narrowed down from precedent to precedent. The fact that we have established a precedent in one case is not a good reason, if it has been proved to be a bad precedent, why we should continue it. I agree with my hon. and gallant Friend who moved the Amendment and with my hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon (Sir H. Williams) about this Amendment, because I feel that Parliament should retain some active control over legislation. The Minister's argument that Parliament is not a suitable place in which to discuss wages boards may be to some extent true, except in the circumstances which he mentioned, but if Parliament is not the place to discuss wages boards, why lay Orders on the Table at all? I think Parliament should keep its control. I think it is wrong to forestall the views of Parliament by saying an Order is to come into force immediately, unless it is an emergency Order such as was mentioned by the hon. Member for South Croydon. I hope the Minister will reconsider this point, not only in relation to this Bill but from the point of view of the whole structure of legislation and the question of Parliamentary control.
Amendment negatived.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 16—(Application To The Crown)
I beg to move, in page II, line 38, after "with," to insert "any business or."
I move this Amendment in order that we may have explained why, if this Measure is to apply to civilian workers employed "by or on behalf of the Crown" in connection with any industrial undertaking its beneficent provisions are not 10 apply to civilian workers employed by the Government in other respects. Is there any particular reason for this?The point raised by my hon. Friend has given us considerable anxiety, and we have directed special attention to it. As will be seen from the Clause, we wish to cover civilian workers but not to cover Services. My hon. Friend will appreciate that we do not want to cover the National Fire Service or the Civil Defence Reserve. If my hon. Friend has in mind certain special difficulties, such as the question of the State management districts or certain canteens, I can give him the undertaking—and I think it is a matter which can suitably be dealt with by undertaking—on behalf of my right hon. Friends the Home Secretary, the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Minister of Labour, that they all agree that these matters should, in principle, be covered and that these conditions should apply to them. My hon. Friend has, I know, considered this Bill very carefully, and he will appreciate the difficulty of finding the exact words in which to express that intention, but as I have clearly stated the line we desire to draw we think our words are most apt to draw that line, I think my hon. Friend can rest assured that they cover his point.
I am not sure whether it is appropriate on this Clause to ask whether local authorities are covered.
Local authorities are covered to the extent that has been laid down, but I understand that this question may arise for discussion on another point, and I suggest that we should not go into it at this stage. My hon. and gallant Friend can rest assured that they are covered to the extent to which they are carrying on catering activities.
Is it not a fact that unless this Amendment is made, establishments in Carlisle and other places under the State management scheme will be exempt from this Measure?