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Commons Chamber

Volume 390: debated on Wednesday 23 June 1943

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House Of Commons

Wednesday, 23rd June, 1943

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

Private Business

Greenock Port And Harbours Order Confirmation Bill

"to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936, relating to Greenock Port and Harbours;" presented by Mr. T. Johnston, and ordered (under Section 7 of the Act) to be considered upon the next Sitting Day, and to be printed.—[Bill 43.]

Oral Answers To Questions

Chinese Good Will Mission, United Kingdom

1.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any statement to make about the possibility of a visit to this country by a Chinese Parliamentary delegation?

I am glad to be able to tell the House that the Chinese Government has been approached by His Majesty's Ambassador in Chungking and that it is hoped that a Chinese good will mission will be able to visit the United Kingdom this autumn. I have as yet no information showing what the nature and composition of the mission will be. Naturally no formal invitation can be issued until this information is available and I am thereby enabled to consult those particularly interested in this country. But if, as we all trust, this visit takes place, I am sure that the Chinese mission can count on a reception no less cordial than that accorded to our own recent Parliamentary mission to China.

United Nations Food Conference

2.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can make a statement on the result of the International Food Conference, held at Hot Springs, Virginia; and whether he will issue a White Paper on the subject?

3.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will have a report of the proceedings of the United Nations Conference at Hot Springs published as a White Paper?

6.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is now in a position to make a statement in general terms on the recommendations of the Food Conference at Hot Springs?

I am arranging for a White Paper containing the Final Act of the Conference to be laid before Parliament to-day. His Majesty's Government are now examining the valuable results of this Conference, and I hope to be able to make a statement in the near future.

Will my right hon. Friend give the House an opportunity of debating the contents of the White Paper?

Post-War Relief (United Nations Conference)

4.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any statement to make with reference to the draft Agreement on post-war relief sent out by the United States Government to all members of the United Nations; and whether it is proposed that a conference shall be called to deal with the subject?

His Majesty's Government warmly welcome the step which the United States Government has taken in communicating this draft Agreement to the United Nations. The draft has been prepared by the United States Government, in consultation with His Majesty's Government and the Soviet and Chinese Governments, and His Majesty's Government are in full accord with its proposals. The Governments of all the United Nations have been asked to give their comments as rapidly as possible, and I understand that it is the intention of the United States Government to convene a Conference as soon as it appears that the proposals in the draft are generally acceptable. The draft Agreement only purports to create the framework for a United Nations organisation, and the detailed arrangements will have to be worked out by this organisation when it has been set up. But the settlement of this organisation is an essential first step. His Majesty's Government therefore very much hope that the proposals will commend themselves to their fellow members of the United Nations. In view of the magnitude and urgency of the needs which will have to be met, and the widespread sources from which supplies must be drawn, it is only through the earliest possible common action on the part of all the United Nations that an efficient organisation can be created in time to meet essential demands when the moment of liberation comes.

Do I understand that this Conference will take place in the United States?

I understand that it is the intention of the United States Government to summon a Conference, I think probably in the United States.

Agreement has been reached among the principal Powers concerned. I hope that the framework of the organisation will be set up soon, but work has, of course, been done in advance.

Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman cannot say anything further, for example, as to when the agreement of all the nations concerned will be obtained?

I cannot, of course, because it does not all depend upon us. It depends upon how rapidly the other nations answer. I hope that what I have said to-day will be of some encouragement to them to do so.

Argentina (British Interests)

7.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is satisfied that British interests in the Argentine are maintained under the new regime following the recent change of government; and whether the status quo in AngloArgentine trade continues undisturbed?

His Majesty's Government do not regard the change of Government which has taken place in Argentina as affecting, up to the present and in any way, the relations existing previously between the two countries.

Will the facilities which existed for such trade as already went on between the two countries continue as before?

Greek Children's Evacuation (Italy's Refusal)

8.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will consider an approach to the Italian Government through the Protecting Power for safe conduct for a ship to evacuate Greek children from Greece, and to arrange for their reception in the British Empire?

In December, 1941, at the height of the famine in Greece, His Majesty's Government, in consultation with the Greek Government, formulated a scheme for the evacuation of substantial numbers of Greek children. It was proposed to house them in various parts of the British Empire, and arrangements for their reception were made accordingly. It was, of course, necessary to obtain the consent of the Italian Government. After prolonged discussions, however, the Italians rejected the scheme, stating that they could not agree to Greek children being sent to any part of the British Empire. His Majesty's Government and the Greek Government then arranged with the Egyptian Government for the permanent reception of a smaller number of Greek children in Egypt. For this a safe-conduct for the ship which should take the children from Greece to Egypt was necessary, but I regret to inform the House that the Italian Government, after very considerable delay, again refused to grant this. His Majesty's Government and the Greek Government have therefore had to abondon the whole project.

Does my right hon. Friend think that the Italian Government might be willing, in view of the changed circumstances, to take a different view?

I think our experience in this matter shows that the attitude of the Italian Government on this question is far from humanitarian.

Lost Air Liner (Dependants, Compensation)

10.

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he accepts responsibility for the payment of compensation to the dependants of those killed by enemy attack on an air liner flying between Lisbon and Great Britain on 1st-2nd June?

K.L.M. operate the air service between the United Kingdom and Lisbon under contract to the British Overseas Airways Corporation, and the arrangements provide that the latter will be responsible for the payment of compensation to dependants of the crews who lose their lives in the course of duty. As the passengers lost their lives as a result of enemy action, the entitlement of dependants of passengers to compensation is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions to determine under the Personal Injuries (Civilians) Scheme. I am informed that persons ordinarily resident in the United Kingdom are covered by that Scheme for war injuries sustained while they are outside the United Kingdom for business purposes.

What rate of pension will be paid to the dependants of the crew?

That is a matter depending upon the terms of the contract between British Overseas Airways and the K.L.M. Company.

Royal Air Force

Officer Air Gunners (Promotion)

12.

asked the Secretary of State for Air why commissioned air- gunners may not receive promotion to a rank higher than that of squadron-leader, no matter how long their record of service?

My hon. Friend is under a misapprehension. Officer air gunners are eligible for appointment to posts of higher rank than squadron-leader in other fields of employment, and a number do in fact hold the rank of wing-commander at the present time.

What does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman mean by "other fields of employment"?

Commissioned air gunners may fill posts above squadron-leader in the G.D. operational sphere, and one such officer commands a squadron in Bomber Command with the acting rank of wing-commander. In addition, Bomber Command contemplate filling certain wing-commander posts, when approved, by ex-air gunners and air bombers, after a certain armament course.

Is it not a fact that commissioned air gunners have not the same rights of promotion as other ranks of the same sort?

No, Sir. I have just told the hon. Gentleman that he is under a misapprehension. Air gunners are eligible for appointment to posts of higher rank than squadron-leader in other fields of employment for which their previous service has made them particularly suitable.

Non-Commissioned Members Of Air-Crews (Pay)

13.

asked the Secretary of State for Air why non-commissioned air-gunners receive much lower rates of pay than other non-commissioned men of similar rank in air-crews, while commissioned air-gunners receive the same rate of pay as other commissioned members of air-crews?

The rates of pay of non-commissioned members of air-crews vary according to their qualifications and responsibilities. The degree of technical knowledge required and the length of the training period differ appreciably as between one category of air-crew duty and another. Commissioned air-gunners, on the other hand, carry responsibilities and undertake duties and obligations as Officers in addition to their responsibilities as air-gunners. They belong to the general duties branch of the Royal Air Force and receive the rates of pay of that Branch in common with all other officers engaged on flying duties.

Does not the right hon. and gallant Gentleman agree that that is rather an evasive answer? Would he not look into the matter?

No, Sir, I would not at all agree with the hon. Gentleman that this was an evasive answer. I have endeavoured, as I always do, to give the hon. Gentleman the true facts of the case. Commissioned air-gunners are members of the general duties branch, and when on the ground they carry out such duties as fall to an officer, such as orderly officer, acting flight-commander, member of a court of inquiry or officer detailed to carry out an investigation. The general duties are such as any officer has to carry out, and for that purpose air-gunners are G.D officers.

Technicians (War Service Gratuities)

14.

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether post-war gratuities payable to the estates of men killed in the service of their country will include technicians on the ground staff?

As stated by my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister in reply to the hon. Member for Basset-law (Mr. Bellenger) on 4th March, 1942, the question of gratuities in respect of war service is one which will have to be settled by the Government of the day in the light of the circumstances then prevailing. I am unable, therefore, to say at the present stage under what conditions post-war gratuities, if granted, will be issuable.

Will the claims of ground service technicians be carefully borne in mind?

That is for the Government of the day. I am quite sure that the Government of the day will bear in mind what the hon. Member has said to-day.

Ministry Of Aircraft Production (Mr Arthur Gonge)

15.

asked the Minister of Aircraft Production whether Mr. Arthur Gonge has accepted the post offered him in his Ministry; and whether he can state the nature of the appointment?

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer given by my right hon. Friend to the hon. and gallant Member for Chatham (Captain Plugge) on 10th June, 1943.

First Class Passengers, King's Cross

16.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether he is aware of the indignation felt by the majority of first-class passengers travelling from King's Cross at the practice of scats being claimed on behalf of intending travellers before their arrival at the station; and whether he proposes to stop this practice?

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport
(Mr. Noel-Baker)

My Noble Friend gave instructions to the railway companies some time ago that no hotel or railway porter should be allowed to reserve a seat in any railway carriage unless the intending passenger was present when the reservation was made. In view of my hon. Friend's representations, I am bringing the matter again to the attention of the Railway Executive Committee, and I have arranged for a special reminder to be issued to the staff at King's Goss.

Is my hon. Friend aware that that warning has been totally disregarded, and that only on Friday it appeared that notice was being taken, because one of the hotel porters said, "I have got my passenger with the case today"?

Is my hon. Friend not aware that porters at railway stations take the luggage of first-class passengers and rush into first-class compartments to claim seats, and that there is a general scramble to get seats in the compartment?

Is it not a fact that porters will do that for anybody for a reasonable tip?

Eire (Merchant Shipping)

17.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport how many Allied ships have been lost in conveying cargoes to and from Eire; and how many British and Allied sailors have lost their lives in these endeavours?

I regret that statistics are not kept in a form which enables me to give my hon. Friend a precise answer to his Question, but, so far as I am aware, no United Kingdom or Allied ship has been lost while carrying a full cargo of goods either to or from Eire on an ocean voyage. I cannot say whether any goods ultimately destined for Eire were being carried in ships which have been lost on their voyages to this country.

18.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport, what proportion of imports into, and exports from, Eire are carried in Allied and what proportion in Eire vessels?

20.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport, whether steps will be taken to ensure that all imports and exports to and from Eire will be carried in Eire-owned or neutral vessels, so as to avoid the risks to British seamen?

I regret that precise statistics are not available, but I am able to state in general terms that a very high proportion of imports from overseas sources into Eire, and of such exports as are sent overseas from Eire, are already carried in ships on the Eire or on a neutral register. The trade between Great Britain and Eire is of mutual benefit to both countries, and the risks to British seamen which it involves are small.

Is it not a fact that Eire ships take advan- tage of the protection afforded by British convoys while ports in Eire are denied to His Majesty's ships?

I am afraid I cannot answer that, but if the hon. and gallant Member will address that Question to the Admiralty, I am sure they can.

Does my hon. Friend appreciate the fact that so long as there is a German Embassy in Dublin there is great danger of spying on the movement of ships?

Yes, Sir, I am fully alive to that danger, but it is not in my power to end the German Embassy in Dublin.

Can the hon. Gentleman state how much butter Eire is sending us in exchange for our best tea and our best coal?

I think that if my hon. Friend would be good enough to address that Question to the Ministry of Food, he would get an accurate answer.

Has there ever been any representation made to Eire to see whether we can have the German Embassy removed?

Motor Roads, Rural Areas

19.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether he will give an assurance that no decision will be taken respecting the planning of motor-ways in rural areas without previous affirmation by this House?

The construction of new roads, whether they are to be reserved for motor vehicles or not, requires legislation. No new roads can, therefore, be made, unless Parliament has first agreed.

Could we have an assurance that this highly contentious point so far as rural areas is concerned will not occupy the time and resources of the Ministry until the whole question can be discussed?

I would not like to give my hon. and gallant Friend the assurance that no planning will be under- taken in the Ministry before the matter is brought to Parliament. I think that would be very unfair to Parliament.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that far too much planning is introduced before Parliament has been consulted at all?

Road Signs, Rural Areas

24.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether he is aware that signposts are being replaced in such a manner as to make them invisible to motor-cars with dimmed lights; and whether he will issue instructions to local authorities on this matter?

I am informed that, as a general rule, road signs are being replaced in the positions and on the posts which they occupied when they were taken down. Before the signposts were removed, highway authorities had already been advised to lower signs in rural areas so that they fell within the beam of light from a masked headlamp, wherever this was practicable. I will remind the highway authorities of this advice, and I am grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend for calling attention to the matter.

Ministry Of Information

Foreign Newspapers, Great Britain (Inquiry)

25.

asked the Minister of Information whether he is now able to make a statement with reference to his inquiry into the activities of newspapers published by Allied subjects in this country hostile to the Soviet Government; and whether the attacks made have now ceased?

Yes, Sir. The inquiry into the activities of foreign newspapers has been completed, and His Majesty's Government have taken measures to ensure that a failure on the part of a foreign publication to observe proper restraint will not be tolerated. In answers to Questions in this House, I have warned editors of foreign journals of the responsibility they owe in return for the hospitality they enjoy. I hope they will take careful note of what I have said, because if any of them defy this warning and attempt to stir up discord among the United Nations, official facilities for the publication of their journals will be withdrawn and their licences to publish will be revoked.

Will my right hon. Friend consider also the advisability of taking drastic action against those responsible for the secretly published and unofficial journals which are sometimes as embarrassing to the Polish Government as they are hostile to the Soviet Union?

I entirely agree with the hon. Member, but I would point out to him that these are not journals but pamphlets. These Poles rush around to printers in various parts of the country, and no licence is required to publish pamphlets. I do not intend to ask the House for power to stop the publication of pamphlets, even though it might put an end to the scandal, because if the Ministry of Information is given too much power, it is bound to abuse it.

Are we to take it that the converse also applies, and that attacks on the Polish Government will be equally discouraged?

Yes, Sir. I have already had a controversy with a well-known organ called the "Daily Worker" for attacks on the Polish Government, and until that paper learns manners I intend to see that it shall not be sent abroad.

What is the Paper Controller doing in allowing so many journals and pamphlets to be published which Members of Parliament as well as other citizens every day have showered upon them?

I have quite enough trouble without answering for the Paper Controller.

Is it not the case that since the Minister issued his warning to the Polish papers they have now extended their activities to publishing an English section, directed towards the English-speaking public, and carrying in this English section slanders against the Soviet Union?

Members' Broadcasts

26.

asked the Minister of Information whether he is consulted about the selection of Members of this House to broadcast?

As I explained in reply to the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg) on 5th May, the B.B.C. is under no obligation to consult with me before issuing invitations to broadcast to Members of this House. In practice, they occasionally ask for advice, and sometimes act upon it.

Does my right hon. Friend also occasionally make representations to the B.B.C. that certain Members of this House should be invited to broadcast?

No; but occasionally I am asked by Members of this House why their talents are overlooked, and I often promise to pass on their suggestions to the B.B.C.

Will the right hon. Gentleman convey a hint to the B.B.C. that it might be as tolerant, at any rate as the House of Commons, of minority opinion?

Railings Removal

28.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works the position in relation to the payment of compensation for loss of iron railings; and is the compensation paid to the owner of the railings or the ground landlord?

Compensation is payable in accordance with the terms of Defence Regulation 50B to persons having an estate or interest in the' fixtures, and if landlord and tenant cannot agree on the apportionment the General Claims Tribunal will decide between them. In practice, except in leases having a long unexpired term, the freeholder is normally accepted by all parties as the effective owner of the railings.

Am I to understand that the owner-occupier whose railings have been taken will be entitled to claim compensation, not the ground landlord?

Where there is an owner-occupier, and no other possible claimant, the owner-occupier, and not the ground landlord, necessarily has the right to compensation.

Does my hon. Friend not agree that the wholesale removal of railings constitutes a great artistic improvement?

30.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, whether he has considered the letter from the urban district council of Oakengates to his Department; and whether he will meet the objections raised by the urban district council to the removal of certain iron railings?

I have seen the letter referred to and a copy of the reply which was issued by my Ministry's Birmingham Office on 8th June to a letter in identical terms which was sent by the clerk of the urban district of Oakengates direct to that office. I concur in the terms of the reply, and I may add that, while every consideration will be given to the representations of the council in respect of particular railings in their area, in accordance with the general policy which has been adopted in this matter, I cannot undertake to suspend generally the taking of railings until all other sources of scrap metal of varying utility have been exhausted.

32.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works under what circumstances and by what authority was the figure of 25s. a ton fixed as the compensation payable to persons or firms whose iron railings were taken by the Government for use as scrap metal when the market price of such scrap metal was several pounds per ton, in view of the fact that Regulation 50B states that the basis of compensation payable in any case shall be the price which might reasonably have been expected to be obtained upon a sale?

The Government authorised the offer of the sum of 25s. per ton as being a fair average price for scrap metal in situ for railings taken by requisition. The reference to Defence Regulation 50B, I observe, is incomplete, and omits the important proviso that the sale is "a sale effected immediately before the severance to a purchaser intending to sever them."

Is my hon. Friend aware that the public generally are under the impression that 25s. a ton is the price fixed by the Government for railings and that there is no appeal against this figure?

That is the price generally paid. I have informed the House many times that if any person thinks he is not getting the proper price there is the Claims Tribunal to which he can make application. But there is, in addition to the railings, for which 25s. a ton is paid, the cost of severance, the cost of removal, the cost of making good, and the cost of transport, which runs out roughly at £3 8s. a ton.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the owner of the railings sells the railings as they are, and that the value of railings in situ is more than 25s. a ton?

Am I allowed to put up any form of gate to prevent my garden being overrun by II bullocks?

33.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works the procedure for obtaining such compensation as will enable persons whose railings have been taken by the Government to erect adequate fencing after the war to replace such railings, including the cost of replacement?

If the hon. Member will refer to paragraphs (4) to (8) of Defence Regulation 50B, he will see that the Regulation does not provide for the payment of compensation based upon the cost of replacement of the railings or upon the provision of a substitute fence.

Surely an individual who has to fence in his property for various reasons, including such as that given by my hon. Friend the Member for Queen's University, Belfast (Professor Savory), is entitled to some compensation towards the cost of replacement having regard to the fact that Government action has left his property open?

Is it the intention of the Government to spread this confiscation of people's property throughout every activity in the country?

Surely my hon. Friend will think it reasonable that people should be entitled to receive compensation for the cost of replacement of railings which have been compulsorily removed by the Government; and should not steps be taken to alter the Regulation if it does not permit of compensation being paid in these cases?

That is a matter for the House of Commons. I am only interpreting Regulation 50B.

Is it the hon. Gentleman's intention to introduce legislation which will provide such compensation?

Bomb-Damaged Houses (Emergency Repairs)

29.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works what steps his Department is taking to assist local authorities in carrying out emergency repairs to houses in areas where there is bomb damage and a shortage of local labour to cope with it?

I am glad to have this opportunity of informing the House that, by arrangement with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, the assistance of my Department is available to local authorities on request. A regional emergency works staff has been able to render assistance to local authorities by providing supplementary labour and materials for first-aid repairs. Labour is provided through the Works and Buildings Emergency Organisation and from the Department's directly employed men of the Special Repair Service. Where temporary shortages of materials occur the Emergency Reserve of Builders' Materials meets the deficiency. These arrangements, I understand, have been appreciated where additional assistance has been required.

Do the local authorities take full advantage of this useful organisation for repairing houses?

All the local authorities are aware of this organisation. The work is the duty of the local authorities in the first instance, and when they require any supplementary help my Ministry is only too glad to render what assistance it can.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind the advisability of making available to small local builders engaged in priváte enterprise sufficient labour and material to enable them to carry out such work?

Bricklaying

31.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works the additional cost of erection of a parlour-type working-class house on the assumption that a reasonable output for bricklayers for an eight-hour day is 240 and 336 bricks for 4½-inch and 9-inch brickwork, respectively, as compared with normal pre-war output; what will be a fair percentage increase in the time of erection of such a house to allow on this account; and whether his plans for postwar building are based on the assumption that such an output is reasonable?

In my reply to the hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. Bossom) on 9th June, I made it clear that the figures for which I was then asked, and which are now quoted by the hon. and gallant Member for Hornsey (Captain Gammans), relate specifically to the basic datum from which calculations of bonus are made, as laid down in the payment-by-results scheme under the Essential Work Order. They do not represent the actual daily output of a bricklayer, but provide the theoretical basis by reference to which the bonus payments for output above these figures are to be reckoned. As the hon. Member may be aware, I am supplying, in reply to a later Question on the Order Paper, standing in the name of the hon. Member for West Willesden (Mr. Viant), information as to the actual number of bricks which are being laid in a working day, and the hon. Member will, I hope, await the reply to that Question. In these circumstances, the purpose which the hon. Member has in mind would not be served by making, on a purely hypothetical basis, the calculations referred to in the Question.

34.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works the number of bricks actually being laid per working day under the operation of the system of payments by results; and whether there is any rule laid down by the bricklayers' trade unions which regulates the daily output of their members?

Inquiry has shown that during the three months ended 30th April, 1943, on 372 sites for which accurate reports have been kept, the number of bricks laid per bricklayer per 10-hour day on brickwork left rough, was: 4½-in. brickwork, 650; 9-in., 780; 14-in., 870. For brickwork pointed one side, the figures were 560, 700 and 790, respectively. I think these figures speak for themselves. As regards the last part of my hon. Friend's Question, there is no trade union rule restricting output in any way.

Royal Navy

Officers' Marriage Allowance

35.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that allowances to officers' wives are paid to the husband, who can, and sometimes does, refuse to make any payment to the wife who is thus left penniless; and whether he will investigate the working of this system with a view to a change in procedure?

Marriage allowance is a grant paid to an officer to assist him in the maintenance of his wife and family; it is in no sense a grant to the wife herself. It is issued only if the officer certifies that he is living with or maintaining his wife. Apart from stoppage of marriage allowance, the Admiralty has no power to compel an officer to support his wife. The number of cases of difficulty is very small and does not call for investigation.

Is not my right hon. Friend aware that the War Office is considering an alteration of regulations in view of the suffering caused to the wives of some officers?

I have been assured that the statement made yesterday does not in any way interfere with the existing practice at the Admiralty.

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain what justification there can possibly be for a procedure which allows interference with the allowance of a naval rating if he neglects his duty to his wife and child when no such procedure is possible or desirable in the case of an officer? Is it not quite unjustifiable class differentiation and very unjust to the wives and children of officers?

In certain cases ratings or the wives of ratings do not get allowances, and I think that my hon. Friend will find that the percentage of officers' wives who are deprived of their allowances is very much less than that of rating.

Will the Admiralty arrange to come into line with the other Services when the investigations that are going on now are completed?

The Admiralty is always open to consult with, and be guided by, the other Services.

Eire (Protection Of Ships)

36.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether ships conveying goods to and from Eire are protected by the Royal Navy?

Some United Kingdom and Allied ships carrying goods to Eire are protected, but ships of Eire flag do not receive the protection of the Royal Navy.

Research Establishments (Co-Operation)

37.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether ,he is aware that an Admiralty research establishment of which he has been informed was set up in immediate contiguity to a research establishment of another Department in order to facilitate co-operation between the two; that the former has been entirely separated from the latter by a high wall furnished with broken bottles and barbed wire so that no communication is possible except by an outside road; and that this and further restrictions of access imposed on persons known to be trustworthy greatly impede collaboration; and whether more efficient arrangements can be made?

The answers to the first two parts of the Question are in the affirmative, with the exception that direct communication between the two establishments without going on to an outside road remains possible. The measures indicated in the Question were necessary in order that a close check might be kept on all visitors to the Admiralty establishment. With regard to the third and fourth parts of the Question, this establishment works in close collaboration with a number of other Government establishments and with firms, and I am satisfied that co-operation is not impeded by these necessary wartime security precautions. If the hon. Member will give me particulars of any complaint he has in mind, I shall be glad to make further enquiries, but at present I see no reason for altering the existing arrangements.

Does my right hon. Friend realize that, in spite of this theoretical passage, communication is in fact both difficult and restricted, and could he use his good nature and his well-known capacity for persuading people to be sensible to get over this absurd difficulty by which two establishments that are meant to work together in fact do it very little?

I am advised that the difficulty mentioned by my hon. Friend does not exist. I am prepared to discuss the matter with him, and if there are difficulties in dealing with this collaboration, I can promise him that my right hon. Friend will see that they are removed.

Does my right hen. Friend realise that secrecy is commonly supposed, no doubt erroneously, to be too frequently used for purposes of avoiding criticism, and could he advise the people in this establishment not to have their motives misinterpreted?

With regard to an establishment of this kind, I am convinced that my hon. Friend will agree that being a little over cautious is much better than being too lax.

Detention Quarters (Sleeping Equipment)

39.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether persons detained in naval detention quarters are provided with hammock, palliasse, mattress or some suitable sleeping equipment and with bedclothes?

Ratings detained in naval detention quarters sleep as on board ship except in the first stage of the sentence. In this stage they are not allowed bedding except on the orders of the medical officer, but blankets are issued in cold weather. In the later stages, deprivation of bedding may be awarded as a punishment for offences committed in the detention quarters. The question whether the regulations should be altered is under consideration.

How long does the first stage last? Is it the same in all cases, or does it vary according to the length of the sentence?

It varies in accordance with the conduct of the person who is detained.

So that it might be for a considerable time that a man is without bedding or even blankets in cold weather?

May I have an assurance that men are never deprived of bedding against the advice of the medical officer, even after the penalty has been imposed?

Seeing that the deprivation of bedding is simply a survival of the practice of civil prisons, which has long been abolished, ought it not to be abolished here?

When may we expect the result of the inquiry which is now taking place; will it be soon?

French Naval Squadron, Alexandria

38.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can now make a statement concerning the French warships recently detained at Alexandria; and whether any other French warships have recently joined the United Nations' naval forces?

I have nothing to add to the reply given by my hon. and gallant Friend the Civil Lord of the Admiralty to the hon. Member for Plaistow (Mr. Thorne) on 3rd June.

Colonial Empire

Lord Hailey's Proposals

40.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether be will now state the views of the Government with regard to Lord Hailey's proposals for Regional International Advisory Councils for Colonial territories in different parts of the world?

I have nothing to add at present to the reply which I gave to a Question on this subject by my hon. Friend on 24th March last.

Can my right hon. and gallant Friend say whether this admirable proposal is under discussion at the present time with the United Nations?

This was a purely unofficial proposal by one person. There have been many others of a similar character, and the Government are considering the whole broad aspect of the thing.

Can my right hon. and gallant Friend say when he hopes to be able to make a statement on this important subject?

Can my right hon. and gallant Friend assure the House, that though there should be the closest collaboration in Colonial affairs between the various Powers concerned, it is very advisable that no action shall be taken which will mitigate in any way the sovereignty of Britain over her own Colonies?

Both the Prime Minister and I have already answered Questions specifically on that point.

If and when these councils meet, will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman bear in mind the desirability of including on such councils a proportion of native representatives who are qualified, wherever possible?

Service In Royal Air Force

41.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many men born in the various territories administered by the Colonial Office are serving in the Royal Air Force?

The records available show that 685 men from the Colonies have proceeded to the United Kingdom or to training centres overseas to join the Royal Air Force, either under approved schemes or under their own arrangements. There has also been local recruitment, mainly for ground duties; and other personnel born in the Colonies are no doubt serving with the Royal Air Force. Details of enlistment of men born in the Colonies in these two categories are not readily ascertainable and full particulars could not be made available without an undue expenditure of time and labour.

Rodriguez (Military Service)

42.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the extent of the contribution of the island of Rodriguez to the Forces of the United Nations; what proportion of the male population of military age is serving outside the island; and what proportion are serving in the British or Empire Forces?

It is not in the public interest to give figures, but the hon. Member may rest assured that the Colony of Mauritius, of which Rodriguez is a part, is supplying a substantial proportion of its man-power either for local defence or for overseas service.

Is it not a fact that the Colonies have responded magnificently to the appeal for man-power for the Services?

Yes, Sir, not only in the Services, but in the realm of production too.

Tanganyika (Education, Africans)

43.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what sum is being devoted to the education of Africans in Tanganyika for the current year; what this amounts to per capita of the estimated African population in that territory; and how it compares with the previous year?

The total estimated expenditure from public funds during 1942 on African education in Government and State-aided schools in Tanganyika is 115,835, which represents 5.4d. per head of the African population. The actual expenditure in 1942 was £97,511 or 4.56d. per head of the African population. These figures do not include the considerable sums spent on education in Tanganyika by missionary societies and other non-Government agencies as to which no information is available. A strong Committee with official and non-official (including missionary) representation presented a report in 1940 containing comprehensive recommendations for the expansion of education services in the Territory, and the Tanganyika Government have been asked to prepare in outline a programme for development over a period of five or ten years. It is hoped that substantial financial assistance for the carrying out of this programme will he provided by grants under the Colonial Development and Welfare Act.

Can my right hon. and gallant Friend assure the House that this aspect of the matter and such improvements as are practicable are under review front time to time by his Department?

Yes, Sir. I am very anxious that improvements should be made, but my hon. and gallant Friend should realise that they depend very much upon buildings, about which there is difficulty in war-time.

Can the Minister say how the sum per head for native children compares with the amount per head per white children in Tanganyika?

I have not the figures, and, anyhow, a comparison might not be accurate, because a large proportion of the education in Tanganyika is carried out by missionaries, for whom I have no figures.

Seychelles (Education)

44.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the percentage of illiteracy in the population of Seychelles, which in the census of 1931 was 75 per cent.; what proportion of children of school age are attending school; and what steps have been taken to give effect to the recommendations of the Report of 1938, by Mr. C. B. Smith, Director of Education of the Seychelles?

I have no precise information as to the present percentage of illiteracy in the Seychelles, but I am expecting from the Governor a full report on the educational problem in the Colony. I regret, however, that I have no reason to think that there has so far been any substantial recent improvement in the matter of illiteracy of the population. The total number of children on the school rolls in 1941 was 3,592 out of some 6,000 children. There were also 424 children receiving secondary education.

As the answer to the last part of the Question is rather long, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

In view of the fact that educational standards in the Seychelles appear to be lower than in any other part of the Colonial Empire and that it is five years since recommendations were made for improvements, cannot the matter be expedited?

The whole question of educational reform is to be discussed with the Governor by my educational adviser, who is now on tour in that area.

Following is the reply to the last part of the Question:

The adoption of many of the recommendations in Mr. C. B. Smith's report necessitates extensive additions and repairs to existing school buildings as well as the provision of some new accommodation. In war conditions in the Indian Ocean the provision of such material and the necessary skilled labour must be exceptionally difficult. Financial provision has recently been made for reviving the post of Inspector of Schools, for scholarships to poor pupils from primary to secondary schools, and for improving teachers' salaries on the lines recommended by Mr. C. B. Smith. Assistance is also being given to Missions towards providing midday meals for indigent schoolchildren. The question of educational reform is to be discussed with the Governor by my educational adviser in the near future.

Electoral Reform

45.

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the undertaking given on three occasions by the Government that an apportunity would be provided to this Parliament, if it so desired, to discuss electoral reform, he will give an opportunity for the consideration of the Motion standing on the Order Paper in the name of the hon. Member for the Skipton division and over 100 other Members?

[ That this House is of opinion that a representative Conference should be set up to consider the question of electoral reform and to report at the earliest possible date.]

Having regard to the state of public business, it is not possible to give time at present for the Motion standing in the name of my hon. Friend.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider this to be a question of paramount importance? As this Motion has been signed by Members in all parts of the House, ought not time to be given for its discussion, as it is an important matter affecting the constitution of the House of Commons?

What is of paramount importance varies according to the views of individuals.

When will the report be made available to the House? It was promised months ago?

There is some misunderstanding. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is making a statement on our next Sitting Day about electoral machinery.

Does my right hon. Friend realise that we have had a promise made to us three times? Is that promise by the Government to be a mere scrap of paper?

No, Sir. As I have said, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is making a statement on our next Sitting Day about electoral machinery, and I think we had better await that and see what the position then is as far as a Debate is concerned.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the promise did not refer to electoral machinery, but the wider question of electoral reform, and that the promise was made three times? Will not the Government give an opportunity of honouring that promise?

If a definite promise has been made, the hon. Gentleman can be sure it will be kept, but my recollection is that no definite undertaking was given to hold such a Debate within a certain period. We shall have to see what is the desire of the House.

Building Construction

46.

asked the Prime Minister whether, in order to avoid the delay and Departmental overlapping, as evidenced by the protracted time-lag between the authorisation and commencement of construction of the 3,000 rural cottages, he will consider deputing to one Minister the task of directing and coordinating the work of the several Departments in any way concerned with any form of authorised emergency building construction in the war need?

It is already the policy of His Majesty's Government that the responsibility for the various types of emergency building work required for war purposes shall be concentrated as far as practicable in the hands of the Minister of Works. But the reference, in my hon. and gallant Friend's Question, to the 3,000 rural cottages betrays some misapprehension. These cottages, though they will go to meet an urgent need which has developed under war conditions, have been planned to take their place as a contribution to the rural housing programme of the future. This building work had, therefore, to be undertaken in accordance with the provisions of the Housing Acts, under which the primary responsibility rests with the local authorities. After the decision was conveyed to local authorities, some time was necessarily spent in selecting the sites, adapting the plans to suit local needs and circumstances, and making arrangements with contractors; but this initial period of planning is now past and I am informed that the actual work of construction will now proceed rapidly. In order to help local authorities to overcome some of the special difficulties of building under war-tune conditions, the Government have arranged that the Ministry of Works will make available certain materials and fittings and, where necessary, will arrange for contractors to undertake the work in areas where satisfactory arrangements cannot be made locally.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that answer, may I ask him whether, in view of the appalling time lag which has been manifested in the matter, some machinery ought riot to be available whereby one Minister, without any procrastination, will have the power to put into effect at once the promises which have been made?

I think the answer I have given shows that the hon. and gallant Gentleman is mistaken in imagining that the provision of these houses is just emergency work, to be swept away at the end of the war. I do not think it is possible to disregard local authorities in putting up local buildings.

As regards the arrangement to which the right hon. Gentleman refers, will he see that small contractors, as well as large, are given sufficient manpower and materials to enable them to assist in this vital and necessary work?

Can my right hon. Friend say whether any arrangements are being made in rural areas for old age pensioners?

May I ask whether cottages of the type now exhibited in the Library are to be regarded as emergency or long-term cottages?

I am not aware of what the hon. Gentleman is referring to; I have not been in the Library lately.

47.

asked the Prime Minister whether, in order to ensure the early reconditioning of damaged houses and the making of preparatory plans and financial arrangements for rebuilding the devastated areas, he will consider handing over to one Minister sole and overriding responsibility for arranging and supervising, in conjunction with local authorities, all such new buildings and reconditioning in both urban and rural areas?

My hon. and gallant Friend may rest assured that, in framing our plans for post-war reconstruction, we are keeping prominently in mind the importance of making as simple and straightforward as possible the procedure for enabling local authorities to obtain the guidance and assistance which they require from the central Government in discharging the duties laid on them by Parliament in this connection.

Will such information be conveyed in short, intelligible language to local authorities, so that they may know what is the position?

I hope so, but the hon. and gallant Gentleman knows the difficulties of making legal language intelligible to the layman.

Will the right hon. Gentleman also give an assurance that all avenues will be explored?

49.

asked the Minister without Portfolio whether he will confer with the Ministers of Health, of Town and Country Planning, of Works and the Chancellor of Exchequer with a view to preparing jointly and announcing an approximate time and progress schedule of the legislation they propose, affecting post-war building regulations, planning and construction for the building industry, so as to ensure that no essential details are omitted and that it moves forward with uniformity?

I am continuously in touch with my colleagues on the numerous aspects of reconstruction which have a direct relation to post-war planning and building. Some of these will certainly involve legislation, and I am very conscious of the importance of orderly progress in such matters, but I could not undertake at present to accept my hon. Friend's proposal.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that no large industrial concern would ever dream of going forward with such a huge programme as this without a time and progress schedule? In the circumstances will he reconsider his answer?

War Casualties

48.

asked the Prime Minister whether he can now say what are the final figures for Allied and Axis casualties, differentiating between white and coloured troops, in the East African and North African campaigns, respectively; and whether he can give any estimate of the numbers lost at sea?

I regret that casualty figures for the East African and North African campaigns in the form asked for by my hon. Friend, and corresponding estimates of the numbers lost at sea, are not available.

Food Supplies

Cherries Order (Corrigendum Slip)

50.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food on what date the corrigendum slip was issued in connection with the Emergency Powers (Defence) Food (Cherries) Order (S.R. & O., No. 785, of 1943), and why, having regard to the fact that the Order which was signed by the commercial secretary of the Ministry of Food has the force of an Act of Parliament, the corrigendum slip bore no signature?

54.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he will withdraw the Emergency Powers (Defence) Food (Cherries) Order (S.R. & O. 785 of 1943), having regard to an error in printing in the Schedule, Part 4, paragraph 3 (1), an error recognised in the corrigendum slip subsequently issued; and will he replace it by an Order accurately printed and properly authenticated?

The corrigendum slip referred to corrected an error which I regret was not noticed by my Department until the Order was in the course of being printed by the Stationery Office I am advised that, as the corrigendum slip was attached to every copy of the Order issued, it is not necessary that the Order should be withdrawn and reprinted, and that it was not necessary for the corrigendum slip to be signed.

Is there any prior case of words having the effect of an Act of Parliament being attached to a document which has the force of law although the attached piece of paper bears no authenticating signature?

But as the answer to the original Question indicates that the matter was looked into, surely the Parliamentary Secretary should be able to say whether there was any precedent?

Not in the Ministry of Food. I cannot give a general answer now, but I can say that there was no precedent in my Department.

Milk Zoning Scheme, Oxford

52.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he has considered the resolution of the Oxford City Council, of which a copy has been sent to him, protesting against the Oxford Milk Zoning Scheme as having had, and continuing to have, a deleterious effect upon the delivery of clean milk to the citizens of Oxford and condemning the failure of his Department to consult local authorities; and what action he proposes to take?

A reply has been sent to the Oxford City Council, and I have sent a copy to the hon. Member. While my Noble Friend is prepared to consider any suggestions for improving the scheme, he is satisfied that in general it is working satisfactorily.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the complaint was not of the imposition of a scheme for the purpose or saving rubber and petrol but of the placing of the public in the hands of the trade without consulting their proper representatives?

The milk rationalisation schemes are prepared by the war-time associations which comprise members of the trade. In the preparation of the schemes local authorities have no locus standi.

National Loaf

53.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food the present composition of the standard loaf; and in what direction this is to be further modified?

Apart from yeast, salt, and the various improvers which are the recognised adjuncts of bread baking, the permitted ingredients of National Flour for making the present National loaf are wheat flour of 85 per cent. extraction, imported white flour, oat products, barley, rye, milk powder and calcium in the proportions authorised. In addition the baker may use potatoes and potato flour as permitted in the Bread (Control and Maximum Prices) Order, 1943. No modification of these arrangements is under consideration at the present time.

Can the hon. Gentleman say that we shall never go back to the white loaf?

As I indicated in my reply, the inclusion of yeast is already permitted.

Fish Zoning Scheme

55.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he will give an assurance that no fish, fit for consumption, will be destroyed as a result of zoning regulations?

58.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that an acute shortage of fish exists in the Black Country and that Newhaven, Midlothian, has dumped surplus stocks into the sea; and will he take steps to end this state of affairs?

There is no reason to fear that, as a consequence of the regulations contained in my Department's distribution scheme, any fish fit for human consumption will be destroyed. It may, however, be impossible in the case of exceptionally heavy landings of fish of poor quality to avoid the condemnation of certain quantities of fish which cannot be marketed in a condition fit for human consumption. I am not aware that an acute shortage of fish exists in the Black Country. Reports received by my Department indicate that during recent weeks that district has had reasonably adequate supplies.

Has not fish in fact been held up under the zoning regulations until it became unfit for consumption?

I have investigated very carefully the case referred to by the hon. Member for Bilston (Mr. Hannah), and I do not think that the fish that was dumped at Newhaven would ever have been brought to market in a condition fit for human consumption.

Was the "Scotsman" mistaken in saying that fish had been dropped into the sea at Newhaven, and will the hon. Gentleman visit the Black Country and make a personal investigation as to the presence or absence of fish?

The fish was dumped at Newhaven, and at the time of dumping it was unfit for human consumption. With regard to the supply of fish in the Black Country, I am informed that in recent weeks the fishmongers have been able to get all the fish they wanted.

Milk Distribution (Cost)

56.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he has considered the criticisms by the chairman and secretary of the Milk Marketing Board at their annual meeting of 11th June that milk had cost more money to deliver in the past six months than at any time in the history of milk selling; and what steps he is taking to correct this?

59 and 60.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (1) by how much the cost of distributing milk has increased during the last six months; and what are the reasons for the increase;

(2) why the price structure for milk gives the larger distributors an advantage of up to 1¼d. a gallon over their smaller competitors?

Information is not yet available as to the cost of distributing milk during the first six months of the operation of the new system. My Noble Friend is, however, satisfied that, during this period, that is to say, from 1st October, 1942, to 31st March, 1943, the total cost was not significantly in excess of the cost of distribution before 1st October, 1942. A material reduction has been made in the distributors' margins since 1st April last, the total saving being at the rate of £2,250,000 a year. I am advised that there is, therefore, no room for doubt that the cost of distributing milk at the present time is materially less than it was under the system which was in operation before 1st October last year. Moreover, all distributive margins are now reviewed at six-monthly intervals in the light of a continuous costing investigation, so that it will be possible to reduce the allowance for distribution in accordance with the economies which are resulting from the rationalisation scheme. Few such economies had been achieved during the six months which ended 31st March last, as the great majority of the schemes did not come into operation until well after the beginning of the present year. With regard to the suggestion that the milk price structure gives an advantage to larger distributors, I would refer my hon. Friends to the replies which I gave on 21st October and 14th April to the hon. and gallant Member for Ripon (Major York).

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in the case of the sale of a producer-retailer's business of just under 1,000 gallons a week, the distribution cost £21 a week more to the public and the taxpayer than it did before, and will he look into some of these matters instead of taking the advice of people who do not know anything about it?