House Of Commons
Tuesday, 24th June, 1947
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
Prayers
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
Private Business
South Metropolitan Gas Bill Lords
South-West Middlesex Crematorium Bill Lords
Read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Sunderland Corporation Bill Lords
Read a Second time, and committed.
Oral Answers To Questions
Employment
Vocational Training Scheme
1.
asked the Minister of Labour how many men have now received vocational training under Government schemes; and what proportion of them have secured employment at the end of their studies.
Thirty-eight thousand, three hundred and ten men have completed courses under the vocational training scheme and approximately 85 per cent. of them have secured employment. Action to place the remainder is in hand.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many of these are ex-Service men and disabled?
Not without notice
2.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is satisfied that the Government's vocational training scheme is working satisfactorily; and what steps are being taken to improve the arrangements.
Yes, Sir. The scheme is kept under constant review in consultation with the representatives of industry to ensure that any possible improvements may be effected.
Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that certain difficulties have arisen in the electrical industry and also in the placing of joiners in industry, and would not he agree that it may be useful to have a conference with the employers and the trade unions from time to time to review these matters?
Those are not difficulties arising out of the scheme. Those are difficulties in industry arising from a shortage of raw materials, and we are having these conferences once a quarter with representatives from all sides of the industry to see how we can get over the trouble.
Has the Minister overcome the difficulty of placing ex-Service men trainees, which does not arise from the shortage of raw materials?
That is rather a different question from the one on the Order Paper, but if my hon. and gallant Friend will put down a Question, I will certainly give an answer.
3.
asked the Minister of Labour what financial provision he has made under the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act, 1944, for the vocational training of people registered under this Act on account of defective vision, whose disability is not sufficiently severe to entitle them to benefits under the Blind Persons Act.
Courses ot vocational training with allowances are available to persons who are handicapped in getting employment by defective vision irrespective of their position under the Blind Persons Act.
Is the Minister aware that there are several borderline cases where persons fall between two stools. They are not blind persons and they are not fully-sighted persons, and it is extraordinarily difficult for these people to hold a job when they get it. There are several jobs for which they could be trained, and with the goodwill of the employer they would be able to get employment in the capacity for which they are trained.
This type of person is covered by our training scheme, and he or she will be entitled to employment in the remploy factories when they are erected.
I have in my possession cases for which there are no facilities either for the training or for the employment of these persons?
I should like to have those cases, and I would be obliged if my hon Friend would send them to me.
Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the case of these semi-sighted men is one which really needs looking into with sympathy and understanding, and that it is by no means a solution to send them to remploy factories? Is he aware that a great many of these men could be working in ordinary industry?
I am rather surprised at the supplementary question, because this is the type of case which is receiving great attention in my Department
Disabled Persons
9.
asked the Minister of Labour if he will cause an inquiry, by the sampling method or otherwise, to ascertain whether employers generally are including three per cent. of disabled persons in their labour force as required by the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act, 1944.
Written inquiries are in course of being made of all employers of 20 or more workers with respect to the fulfilment of their obligations under the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act, 1944, and these will be followed as necessary by an inspection of records.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many employers have most sympathetically fitted men into simple jobs, and will he expedite this inquiry so that those who do not know of their obligations may be informed of them?
I think that is a correct statement of the facts in industry. We hope to get all these replies in by the middle of next month and we shall then be in a position to see what help we should give employers, not only to keep them right as to their obligations, but to assist them to meet those obligations by providing the types of disabled persons for the types of jobs they have.
Even if all employers employed their full quota at present, does the right hon. Gentleman think that that would take up all the unemployed disabled men, and if not, will he consider increasing the quota immediately?
This is a matter which is under consideration. We are advised by some very good people who are themselves disabled. This is examined every month, and it is to be the subject of examination tomorrow
In order to make sure that employers employ the right percentage, why cannot the number of disabled men employed be shown on the returns sent to the Department?
That is the return which is being asked for.
Displaced Persons
11.
asked the Minister of Labour whether a displaced person brought over to this country is, after any given period of time, free to leave one industry for another.
No, Sir. Change of employment is in all cases subject to the consent of the Ministry of Labour.
Is the right hon. Gentleman's Department likely to give permission for a person to change from one industry to another after, say, a period of one year?
It would depend on the merits of the particular case, but we would not look with favour on a man moving from an undermanned industry to one which is overmanned.
What sanction has the right hon. Gentleman got to secure that people do not change without his approval?
The sanction is to send them back again.
Women Workers (Government's Appeal)
12.
asked the Minister of Labour how many women the Government expect to re-enter industry in answer to their latest appeal; and when he will make a statement on the results of that appeal.
I am not yet in a position to estimate the results of the campaign.
May I ask, first, when will the right hon. Gentleman be in a position to estimate the results of the campaign, and secondly, does he think it is fair to ask women to do two jobs—at home and in the factory—when so many men are asking for a shorter and shorter week?
With regard to the first part of the supplementary question, I hope to be in a position to give an estimate of the results of the campaign in the middle of next month. As regards the latter part, I do not think it really arises.
Oh.
Will the Minister take steps to see that undue pressure is not placed upon women applicants to enter domestic work?
This is a campaign to get women to give part-time employment. It is purely voluntary. No pressure is applied to women who have great domestic responsibility, but those who can do so are asked to give us help in undermanned vital industries. In that sense, we are not excluding hospitals and public institutions.
Is it estimated that the women will balance out the number of children remaining at school owing to the raising of the school-leaving age?
That is rather a different question.
No, it is not.
Ex-Service Personnel
13.
asked the Minister of Labour how many ex-Service officers and other ranks were registered as unemployed at the latest convenient date.
The numbers of ex-Service men and women registered as unemployed at 12th May were 53,964 and 3,658 respectively, of whom 6,374 and 173 were ex-officers registered with the Appointments Department. Separate figures for ex-officers registered at employment exchanges are not available.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the serious plight in which many of these men now find themselves? Will he tell the House what steps he proposes to take in his own Department to try to improve the situation?
I am awar; of the very parlous plight of many of these persons, and I have great sympathy with them, but the hon. and gallant Member will appreciate that in one month we have reduced the figure by 17,000 and that is not bad going in dealing with this problem.
Work Load Assessment Investigations
5.
asked the Minister of Labour what British industries have now completed plans for the assessment of work load; and to what extent his Department is giving assistance in passing on to other industries the benefit of the knowledge gained in this field.
I have no information as to the extent to which special plans of this nature have been instituted ay individual industries.
Would it be possible for the right hon. Gentleman to find out?
It does not really come within the ambit of the Ministry of Labour, but there is a further Question on the Order Paper from which some information may be gained.
6.
asked the Minister of Labour when he expects that the present investigations into the assessment of work load in the cotton-spinning industry, which are being adopted by the Cotton Board, are likely to be completed and to what extent his Department is assisting in this matter.
7.
asked the Minister of Labour what progress has been made in the work load assessment investigations being carried out under the auspices of the Cotton Board.
An experimental scheme involving redeployment of labour in accordance with an assessment of work loads has been instituted by stages in a cotton spinning mill and will soon be in complete operation. The result of the experiment will then be measured and a report presented to the representatives of both employers and workpeople. The responsibility for this experiment rests with the Cotton Board, and I am unable to say when that Board will be in a position to publish its report. The services of our Department are available for such advice and information as may be desired.
Is it not possible to give some indication within broad limits as to when this Report might be expected?
The publication of the Report is not as a rule within our control. We shall ask the Cotton Board to speed up publication of the result of this experiment so that it may be available to the rest of industry.
Does this investigation cover the disparity between mule spinning and ring spinning?
I understand it covers the whole of the operations in the cotton industry, and a comprehensive report will be published.
Fuel Shortage (Staggered Hours)
15.
asked the Minister of Labour what progress is being made with arrangements for staggering working hours and night shifts in industry in order to reduce the peak demands on electricity generating capacity next winter.
I am glad to say that considerable progress has already been made. Since the publication of the report of the Electricity Sub-Committee of the Joint Consultative Committee on 12th May, the matter is being examined afresh by the Regional Boards for industry and their district committees.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the need to make some progress on this matter fairly soon in view of the fact that the electrical load shedding season is likely to start in October?
We are aware of the urgency of this matter and most employers are playing the game, but the scheme is being prejudiced by the resistance of some employers who will not accept the principle of staggering. That matter is actively under consideration, and we are having advice from both sides of industry.
Scotland
Rehabilitaton Centres
16.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many rehabilitation centres for members of the Forces there are in Scotland; where they are situated; and if he will make a statement on their work and progress.
Provision is made by the Ministry of Pensions for the medical rehabilitation of ex-Service pensioners at their hospital in Musselburgh and the Ministry also have arrangements for the treatment of ex-Service pensioners at a hospital in Glasgow where similar provision exists. I understand that all patients in the Ministry's hospital whose physical condition permits, undergo a course of medical rehabilitation in a fully equipped centre as part of routine treatment and that very satisfactory results have been achieved. I am also informed that the Ministry of Labour and National Service are taking steps to establish a centre near Glasgow for industrial rehabilitation at which special provision will be made for ex-Service men.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many people are being rehabilitated in these centres, what training they have received, how much of that is vocational, and how many of them have been absorbed in industry?
Those questions are not contained in the original Question. Details of that kind will require to be provided by the appropriate Minister who will have the details and will make them available to the hon. and learned Gentleman.
At the end of my Question I asked for details of the work, etc.
I have given a general answer to the hon. and learned Gentleman's Question. I went to a lot of trouble in making the inquiries. The details are for the Ministry of Pensions and the War Department.
With reference to the first part of the right hon. Gentleman's reply, I would like to ask whether these two rehabilitation centres are able to cope with the demand? Are they Ioo per cent. full or are people waiting to go in?
Again I could not say without notice but I will try to get the information for the hon. and gallant Member.
Schools (Swimming Instruction)
17.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is being done to teach schoolchildren in Scotland swimming and life-saving at sea and in rivers.
Instruction in swimming is given throughout the session to pupils attending schools equipped with indoor ponds or schools to which public indoor ponds are reasonably accessible. Pupils are generally examined by tests instituted by the local authorities or by the Royal Life-Saving Society. Rivers and the open sea are not used for purposes of school instruction.
Shop Premises (Tenancy)
18.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when on expects to have a report from the committee which he set up to inquire into the tenancy of shop and other premises in Glasgow.
I understand that the Committee of Inquiry into the tenure of shop premises in Scotland are still hearing evidence. I have no doubt that they will present their report as soon as they have come to conclusions, but it is too early to say when the report may be expected.
Will the right hon. Gentleman do all he can to expedite the report? This matter is causing great anxiety all over Scotland. In at least one case which I know the man concerned is squatting and refusing to give up until his case comes up for consideration at the sheriff court.
I have been urging the Committee to make as speedy a report as possible. It will be within the recollection of the House that it was suggested that there might be an interim report, but the Committee have been getting on so speedily with the job that I am advised that there will be no need for an interim report and that they will be able in the very near future to give me the full report.
Timber Licence Application
19.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland why Mr. W. A. Thain has been refused a licence for timber to complete two bungalows at 20 and 22, West Craigs Avenue, Corstorphine, for the building of which he originally received a licence from the Minister of Works.
As I told the hon. Member on 20th May, Mr. Thain's application was not granted because his houses were not included in the 1947 programme. I have recently found it possible, however, to review a number of outstanding applications, and a timber licence was issued to Mr. Thain on 17th June.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the same situation is arising everywhere throughout Scotland, and cannot he take steps to ensure that priority is given in relation to the date on which the building licence is granted?
I will certainly look into that. The real difficulty—and I think that is recognised by all hon. Members—is the shortage of supplies, but we are doing everything possible to try to overcome that problem.
River Pollution
20.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the continued pollution of the River Kelvin and the River Allander; and what steps it is proposed to take to end this nuisance.
I am aware of the pollution of the two rivers mentioned. The Scottish Water Advisory Committee, through their Rivers Pollution Sub-Committee, have recently asked all local authorities for information about pollution with a view to considering what action is necessary, and I have asked the Committee to let me have, as soon as possible, such information as they may obtain in regard to the two rivers mentioned.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that I raised this matter first in 1929, that the position has been gradually made worse, and that the Allander and the Kelvin have now become practically open sewers?
Sub-Tenancies
21.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that large numbers of sub-tenants in the City of Glasgow are uninformed or misinformed with regard to their rights of tenure; and if he will take steps to have the legal position in this matter made more widely known.
I am sending the hon. Member a copy of a booklet explaining the main provisions of the Rent Restrictions Acts prepared by my Department for issue to local authorities and Citizens' Advice Bureaux. The provisions of the Acts, however, are so complex that it would be misleading to rely on a simplified version of them—[Laughter.]I am rather amused at the laughter from the other side, because I was not responsible for the Rent Restrictions Acts—and I would suggest that any sub-tenant who is in doubt about his position should take legal advice.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the legal borderline between lettings of furnished and unfurnished rooms is very obscure to many of these people?
I am certainly aware of the difficulties associated with the interpretation of these Acts, but I am not legally qualified to give advice.
But is it not about time that the right hon. Gentleman, who is fully aware of all the Acts, recognised that, in view of the most unsatisfactory position prevailing as a result of the Acts, he should bring in some legislation to amend that most unsatisfactory situation which the people of Scotland have deplored for years?
Yes, I am aware of the difficulties in connection with many Acts passed by the Conservative Party that sooner or later will be abolished.
Can a copy of the booklet be supplied to each of the Scottish Members?
If there is a request, yes.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that Glasgow Town Council have set up a sub-committee to publish information to such tenants giving advice and information on the Rent Restrictions Acts, that leaflets have already been circulated and that they are drawn up by a fully competent lawyer, namely, the town clerk himself?
May I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman seriously? He knows as well as I do that the overwhelming majority of the people of Scotland, including his own party, want to reform the Rent Restrictions Acts. "Sooner or later," he tell us. Is that all he can tell the people of Scotland? Will he not give us some comfort more than the words 'sooner or later"?
Sooner.
Prisoners Of War
Relaxation Of Restrictions
24.
asked the Secretary of State for War why permission to visit civilian cinemas is not given to German prisoners of war on the same conditions as given to Italians.
41.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is now in a position to make a statement regarding the further relaxation of restrictions on German prisoners of war.
43.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will make a further statement about the conditions which apply to prisoners of war in this country.
I will, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement in answer to this Question and Questions 41 and 43.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether one of the facts is that he is afraid these prisoners of war might see certain Government propaganda films which would remind them very strongly of what they used to be taught at home?
I would urge the hon. Member to read my answer, and then I believe he will be satisfied.
Has the right hon. Gentleman taken into account the number of prisoners of war still held in the Middle East in connection with any relaxation of restrictions on prisoners generally.
Yes, Sir; I have taken that into account, but in my answer I am saying what I am doing mainly in connection with those at home here, which are by far the larger number.
While we await the OFFICIAL REPORT, will the right hon. Gentleman indicate whether his reply contains anything to suggest that he will make conditions easier and more pleasant for prisoners in this country in order that the maximum number possible will stay on to work here?
I hope my answer will give that impression among the prisoners of war.
Can my right hon. Friend at least assure us that his reply will indicate that the relaxations will go at least as far as the relaxations in the case of the Italian prisoners of war?
In so far as it includes access to shops, cinemas, restaurants, and public transport, I think it will.
Following is the statement:
It has been decided that German prisoners of war in this country, other than those classified as ardent Nazis, whose output of work is satisfactory shall be allowed to draw part of their pay in sterling and to use shops, cinemas, restaurants and public transport within five miles of their camp, but not to use licensed premises. These arrangements will come into force about the middle of July. They are intended as incentives to good work and will be subject to review in the light of experience.
At present, prisoners of war receive their working pay in the form of token money which can be spent only in the camp canteens. In addition, a prisoner whose output is good earns a bonus equal to his pay. A further bonus of 3s. a week is credited to prisoners who are habitually good workers. These bonuses are not available for spending in this country, but are credited to the prisoner's account, and may be used for remittances to Germany, or paid in marks in Germany on repatriation. A prisoner employed on skilled work who works 48 hours a week is thus able to earn 6s. token money and 9s. bonus credit
Under the new arrangements, all prisoners who work at least 40 hours a week and qualify for the additional bonuses will receive 3s. of the bonuses in token money instead of as a credit, and prisoners who work more than 48 hours a week will receive the bonus for the additional hours in token money instead of as a credit. Prisoners of war who work satisfactorily will be allowed to exchange a part, generally 50 per cent., of their token money into sterling. The effect of these changes will be that a skilled prisoner of war, who works 48 hours a week and whose output is satisfactory, will draw 9S. in token money and 6s. bonus credit instead of 6s. token money and 9s. bonus credit. Half of the 9s. token money may be converted to sterling. Prisoners who work 40 hours a week will draw 8s. token money and 5s. bonus credit instead of 5s. token money and 8s. bonus credit. Half of the 8s. token money may be converted to sterling. It will be appreciated, however, that a restriction will be necessary on the total amount of sterling which a prisoner may have in his possession at any time.
Arrangements of a similar kind will be applied to officers and protected personnel who work satisfactorily: and also to prisoners employed in the domestic work of the camps, so far as the camp welfare funds from which they receive their pay permit.
Wages
32.
asked the Secretary of State for War what hourly rate of wages is paid to his Department by the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board for the services of German prisoners of war at their Loch Sloy scheme; what proportion is paid per hour to the men concerned; what are the average weekly earnings of the men; and what amenities does his Department provide.
The rates charged for the services of prisoners of war are fixed by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Works. I understand that they are the rates which would be paid to British civilian workers engaged on the same type of work. The pay received by the prisoners is determined by their status as prisoners of war, not by reference to the charges made for their services. Under the arrangements hitherto in force, the average earnings of a prisoner engaged on skilled work would amount in a 48 hour working week to 15s., consisting of 6s. cash and 9s. bonus credit. The prisoners receive in kind all necessities such as accommodation, food, clothing, medical and hospital services. A canteen and normal recreational facilities are provided at the camp.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Hydro-Electric Board pay 2s. o½d. an hour, and the portion returned to the men in wages is three farthings an hour? Is he aware that in some weeks they may earn is. 6d.? Is it not the case that civilians in the Helensburgh district are not permitted to entertain these men, or take them on public service vehicles, or to the cinema?
In answer to the second part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, I think he will be satisfied by my reply to a previous Question. In reply to the first part of his supplementary question, I have not worked out the exact amount the prisoners get per hour but merely answered the Question on the Paper.
Does not the Minister think it is about time that the whole rates of pay of prisoners of war were revised? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on farms prisoners of war receive 8d. an hour overtime, while their colleagues get 2S. Id.?
Yes, Sir, and I have to recognise, as the House must, that there will come a time when it will not be a question of rates of pay for these prisoners of war, because they will have gone home.
I3 my right hon. Friend aware that in inclement weather they do not even receive three farthings an hour? Is this the best way to teach these people to adopt our mode of life?
I am doing what I can, and I think the House will agree with the announcements I have made from time to time to improve the lot of these prisoners of war.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the difference between the amount paid for the services of these men and the amount they receive is accounted for by the Chancellor, who expects to net £36 million this year as a result of their sweated labour?
That is the kind of question my hon. Friend should address to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
British Army
Overseas Release (Domestic Responsibilities)
25.
asked the Secretary of State for War what steps are taken to ensure that a man desiring to be released from the Army in a part of the British Commonwealth other than the United Kingdom is not thereby avoiding his obligations to maintain his wife and family.
Under present rules a man may be released locally in any country overseas if he obtains the consent of the Government of the country in question and of the overseas command. As far as the requirements and obligations of overseas commands are concerned, although it is not a military responsibility to investigate the private or domestic affairs of applicants for local release, commands have absolute discretion and may properly refuse consent where it appears that the sole or principal reason for the application is to evade domestic responsibilities in the United Kingdom.
Will my right hon. Friend consider issuing instructions to overseas commands that they should make a more determined attempt to find out whether a man is avoiding his responsibilities, because I have a case in my constituency where no communication has ever been made to the wife by the War Office.
I do not think that is our responsibility. If my hon. Friend, or indeed any hon. Member, has reason to believe that any soldier is trying to evade his responsibilities to his wife or family in this country, I will certainly look into it, but I will not "snoop "into the lives of soldiers.
Has the Minister any evidence that there is an appreciable number of men who are thus seeking to avoid their domestic responsibilities?
No, Sir.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that by the time the wife or other dependant knows that this has happened, the man is outside the purview of the War Office and has a civilian job in the Colony or Dominion concerned?
I would welcome any suggestions from my hon. Friend to try to alleviate these attempts, if there are any, to avoid responsibility to wives and families. After all, I am a family man myself, and I believe in family responsibility.
War Graves (Relatives' Visits)
26.
asked the Secretary of State for War what difficulties are holding up the provision of facilities for relatives to visit overseas graves of Service men; and when he expects to be in a position to conclude his arrangements.
Although the committee appointed to consider this matter has reported, the question is one which raises problems affecting a number of Departments besides my own, and I regret that I cannot yet say exactly when it will be possible to announce a decision.
Will my right hon. Friend say whether there is any hope of arrangements being completed so that the relatives can get abroad before the summer has expired, as they are full of disappointment that holiday trips, and so on, are possible, and yet they cannot get' abroad ?
They can, of course, go under their own power. All I was trying to do was to arrange that their visits should be facilitated in those cases where they need War Office help.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the fact that arrangements after the first world war for these visits were much more speedily and effec- tively arranged, and will he "ginger up" those responsible for making them?
Yes, I am always willing to "ginger up" as much as possible, but the second world war was a little different from the first world war.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider, when arranging for the relatives of those Service men who die abroad to visit the graves of their relatives, to do so as soon as possible after the funeral or. if possible, in time for the funeral?
Yes, Sir.
Territorial Army (Mileage And Petrol Allowance)
27 and 38.
asked the Secretary of State for War (I) whether he is aware that the motor mileage allowance to T.A. personnel travelling on duty is inadequate and compares unfavourably with the mileage allowance paid to local government officers; and whether he will cause a substantial increase to be made in this allowance;
(2) whether he is aware of the delays and inconvenience which are caused by the present method whereby petrol coupons for duty journeys are issued by the Ministry of Fuel and Power to Territorial Army personnel against applications submitted by individuals and supported by certificates of officers commanding units; and whether he will give consideration to a system of bulk allocation of petrol to Territorial Army associations to issue, where necessary, to their personnel.There arc two different arrangements under which members of the Territorial Army may use their private cars in connection with their Territorial Army activities. First, they may use them in the performance of duties for which a car would have been provided by the War Department if available. In this case petrol coupons are issued under Army arrangements through the Territorial Army associations and mileage allowance is paid at the same rate as officers of the Regular Army receive in similar circumstances. Second, members of the Territorial Army may use their cars for attendance at evening drills and other training where public transport facilities are inadequate. In this case, they are not using their cars on Army duty but are in much the same position as other members of the public whose business or other activities necessitate extra running of their cars. The issue of petrol coupons is, therefore, a matter for the regional petroleum officer. I am not aware of any delay and inconvenience caused by this arrangement. If the hon. and gallant Member knows of any such cases, I will ask my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power to have them investigated. For these journeys, my Department pays rates of mileage allowance which are intended to cover only the marginal use of the car without any contribution to overheads such as is made to owners using their cars on War Department duty.
Sir G. Jeffreys: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the object of these allowances is to render it reasonably easy for Territorial officers and other ranks to attend drills, often having to travel very long distances? Is he also aware that the system of bulk issue by a Territorial Association was most successfully carried out throughout the war in the case of the Home Guard? Is he aware that there are delays in getting petrol through the filling up of forms, such as I hold in my hand, from regional petroleum officers?In that connection I will do my best with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power to facilitate the issue of petrol coupons
Is not this another example of the niggardly and somewhat parsimonious attitude adopted by the War Office and the Treasury to the Territorial Army? If the right hon. Gentleman's Department spent less time examining small items in pence, losses of many millions would not occur through negligence.
I think my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is adopting a sympathetic attitude on this matter, as was evidenced by the announcement he made during the proceedings on the Finance Bill the other evening.
Does this scheme apply equally to officers and to other ranks?
I would like notice of that Question.
Allowances (Greece)
28.
asked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware of the hardship being caused to officers and other ranks now serving in Greece, due to the inadequacy of their allowances on account of the present rate of exchange between drachma and sterling; and what action he is taking to remedy this hardship.
A local allowance is given to officers and other ranks in Greece, which takes account of local prices and conditions of living. For the purpose of calculating this allowance, which is expressed in terms of sterling, local prices are converted to sterling at the current rate of exchange, which is also used for converting cash issues to the troops from sterling to drachmae. The allowance was recently reviewed, and will be reviewed again shortly in the light of detailed information supplied by the local Service authorities, regarding prices and conditions of living in Greece.
Are we to understand that no change has been made recently in this matter? Is not the allowance for the Services to be brought into line with the increases allowed to members of the Embassy staff and the Economic Mission mainly because of a recognition of these difficulties in Greece and the relations of the drachma to sterling exchange?
I do not think the cases are comparable, but the allowances were recently reviewed, and are to be reviewed again shortly.
When these matters are reviewed, are all the Services brought in?
Yes, Sir, we have had close co-operation in these matters with the other Services.
Claims Branch, Northern Command
29.
asked the Secretary of State for War the number of officers on 1st June, 1947, in the Claims Branch at Northern Command Headquarters; the number of claims outstanding, and the average number of claims received per month in the past 12 months.
The answer to the first part of the Question is three, to the second 1,648, and to the third 591.
Estate Agent (Release Application)
30.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether the application for release of an officer of Claims Commission for agricultural work, of whose name he has been informed, was recommended by the agricultural authorities.
An application for this officer's release in Class B for employment as an estate agent was supported by the Ministry of Agriculture. The officer, who had been released with his age and service group in Class A, had been recalled from the unemployed list on 26th June, 1946, at his own request, and had undertaken to defer release until general demobilisation. His case was fully considered, but in view of the serious shortage of qualified officers serving with the Claims Commission it was not found possible to agree to cancellation of his undertaking
Does not the Secretary of State think that at this time of all times, when there is an imminent prospect of food shortage, an experienced agricultural manager like this would be better employed in helping agricultural production than in settling a very small number of claims?
Generally speaking, I am in sympathy with helping agriculture as far as I can. But this officer himself made a request to come back in June last year and gave an undertaking. I am not in a position to release him from that undertaking at the moment.
In view of the fact that the Minister seems to be under a misapprehension about his undertaking to go back —it was the other way round, he was asked to go back—will the right hon. Gentleman look into the case again?
I will certainly look into it again.
Officer's Arrest (Egypt)
31.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Major E. J. Graham, R.E., was arrested in Egypt, on 2nd April, on a charge which has not been carried further; that no summary of evidence was taken until 21st May and then only in connection with other charges of a minor character; that he is still under arrest and that he has not yet been brought to trial; and if he will deal at once with this unreasonable delay.
I am not aware of this case, but I am making inquiries, and will write to the hon. and learned Member.
When the Secretary of State has particulars of this and any other cases of delay, will he pass them to the Foreign Office to be dealt with by the critics of delay in Central Europe?
No, Sir, I prefer to deal with these cases, which affect my Department, myself.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that Questions of this type usually appear on the Order Paper once a week, and are indicative of the fact that reform of court martial procedure is necessary.
No, Sir, I think my hon. Friend is assuming too much. The mere fact that a Question appears on the Order Paper week by week does not necessarily mean that the Question is full of facts.
Is my right hon. Friend suggesting that the Question on the Paper. about which he admits he knows nothing, is not based on facts?
No, Sir, I was answering my hon. Friend behind me, and not the hon. and learned Member.
Bellahouston Park, Glasgow
33.
asked the Secretary of State for War when it is intended to vacate Bellahouston Park, Glasgow, clear it and hand it back to the Glasgow Corporation, in accordance with the agreement entered into by his Department on 9th and 18th September, 1941.
Bellahouston Park is no longer required by my Department. All troops have now been removed except a guard maintained there at the Lord Provost's request. As I have informed certain of my hon. Friends, negotiations are still proceeding for the handing back of the park to the corporation.
While I welcome the tone of the right hon. Gentleman's statement, may I ask him whether these negotiations cannot be speeded up, because the people of Glasgow are becoming very impatient?
Yes, Sir. In so far as I can speed them up, because they are taking place with Glasgow Corporation, I shall do my best.
Before taking steps to clear the park, will my right hon. Friend keep in mind the fact that there are Glasgow people still living in temporary accommodation in the park who have nowhere else to go, and before taking any steps with regard to clearing it, will he consult with the Secretary of State for Scotland?
Yes, Sir. I am doing that.
Personal Case
34.
asked the Secretary of State for War why 14730695 Lance-Corporal Thomson 2nd South Staffs., B.A.O.R., who was due for demobilisation on 27th May, has not yet been sent home.
This soldier was temporarily kept in the Rhine Army in connection with a court of inquiry into an accident. He is now being returned to this country for release.
Headley Down Military Prison
37.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether it is proposed to retain as a permanent detention camp the temporary detention camp established during the war at Beech Hill, Headley Down, Hampshire; whether he is aware that the presence of this camp in what has been scheduled as a beauty spot is strongly objected to by the local residents; and whether he will cause it to be closed and demolished as soon as possible.
No, Sir, when an alternative has been constructed Headley Down military prison can be given up. It will be appreciated, however, that until labour and materials can be made available, after the demands of the national housing programme have been met, it will not be possible to "begin construction. Consequently, Headley Down, which was built at considerable expense as a Canadian wartime military prison, and is at present the only suitable alternative to the prison at Aldershot, which was destroyed by fire, will have to be used for some time. The acquisition of the site is, therefore, being considered by the Interdepartmental Committee on Service Land Requirements.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this forest of barbed wire, enclosing the less desirable characters of the Army, is definitely detrimental to the amenities of this neighbourhood, and will not he consider speeding up the possible return of this camp to its normal use?
Yes, Sir. I will do my best. I shall be only too glad to get rid of the barbed wire and of any undesirable characters who are in the Army.
Officer Cadets' Uniforms
40.
asked the Secretary of State for War when the new blue patrol uniform made and fitted for officer cadets at the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst, last April, will be issued.
The uniform which it was proposed to issue to the officer cadets was that used by the Army mechanised recruiting column last year. The quantity available was only sufficient, however, to cover the present strength. The needs of future intakes would have had to be met from fresh production, and in view of the general clothing shortage it has been decided to postpone such production and any issue of blue uniform to cadets until the textile position has improved.
Can the Minister say why it was that this uniform was fitted to each cadet, and that labour was wasted?
I do not know that it was fitted to each cadet. Actually, the cadets come in each term, and I cannot imagine that all of them have been fitted with this uniform.
Tripolitania And Cyrenaica (Food Situation)
42.
asked the Secretary of State for War what measures the British Military Administration have taken to forestall famine conditions in Libya as a result of the serious drought and consequent crop failure.
As the answer is rather long, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Following is the answer:
The Administration has taken vigorous action to alleviate distress. A Grain Commission, consisting of British, Arab and Italian members, was appointed to survey the grain resources of the territory. Grain rationing has been enforced and measures taken to prevent hoarding. Application has been made to the International Emergency Food Council, through the Ministry of Food, for an allocation of grain to meet the civilian requirements. Steps were taken by the Administration at the beginning of April to make an additional issue of over 3,000 tons of grain on ration to some 300,000 persons in the most hungry areas, and as from this month a further 30,000 tons of imported grain is being allocated.
The effect of the drought in Cyrenaica has been less severe and a fair proportion of the crop has been saved but it has been necessary for the British Military Administration to arrange the importation of a quantity of cereals. The situation has not, however, warranted the emergency measures which have had to be taken in Tripolitania. Shipments of grain are now on their way to these territories and it is hoped that the quantities of cereals for which application has been made by the Administration will be available. In this connection I would refer my hon. Friend to my reply to a Question by the hon. and gallant Member for Hythe (Brigadier Mackeson) on 20th May, in which I gave details of the programme of cereal imports for these territories.
Civil Service (Manpower)
45.
asked the Prime'Minister if he is now in a position to make a statement on the result of the Government's review of the number of persons employed in Government Departments.
Yes, Sir. His Majesty's Government fully recognise the importance of limiting to a minimum the demands which civil administration makes on the manpower of the country and a constant check is being kept in order to avoid waste and make the most economical use of existing staff. But there are four reasons which forbid us to expect large reductions at the present time.
I think that the Prime Minister will agree that all Members will endorse what he has said about the high quality of the Civil Service and the hard work which they do. I would like to ask him whether he will not also agree that, if it were not for the fact that the Government of which he is the nead had introduced so much doctrinaire legislation, and transferred so much industry to public control, he could reduce the Civil Service very greatly?
I am afraid the hon. and gallant Member is quite mistaken, because those Measures which require the greatest increases of staff are precisely those which were planned originally by the Coalition Government.
Will the Prime Minister, in paying the well-deserved tribute which he has done, see also that the conditions of remuneration approximate to those of private industry and the National Coal Board?
That is a very large question.
Following is the statement:
On Ist January, 1947, there were 722,000 non-industrial civil servants. 400,000 of these were in the Post Office and the Defence and Supply Departments. The 258,000 in the Post Office are carrying out an essential service similar to that of other nationalised industries. Those engaged in Service and Supply Departments are part of the machinery of defence and the civilian staffs of the Service Departments—whose duties are often identical with those performed by uniformed staffs—will in future be shown separately in the Staff Returns; they will come within the allocation of manpower made for defence as a whole. Of the remainder of the Service, over 92,000 are employed in Social Services. Departments; over 91,000 in Departments concerned with trade, industry and transport and 60,000 in the Inland Revenue and Customs and Excise. These big blocks account for nearly 90 per cent. of the Civil Service.
The total of the non-industrtal Civil Service on Ist January, 1947, was only 8,000 less than it was at its peak in July, 1943
There are two main reasons why the decline has been so small. The first is that temporary work which will gradually come to an end still employs more than 100,000 civil servants. We have had to retain rationing and other controls which account for 44,000 of this number. The terminal work left over from the war, or connected with resettlement, accounts for another 60,000. It must be got out of the way at reasonable speed. Neverthe less there have already been noticeable reductions in the staffs engaged on wartime duties. The Defence Departments have already reduced their staffs by over 42,000 civilians from the peak war figure, and further substantial reductions, both in civilian and uniformed personnel, should be achieved as terminal duties are completed.
The other main reason why the total numbers in the Civil Service have declined little is that decreases have largely been offset by increases due to the imposition of new duties. These have grown enormously over recent years, irrespective of the party from which the Government in power was drawn. The right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson), who, as Chancellor of the Exchequer in the Coalition Government, was responsible for the plans which formed the basis of the recruitment to the Civil Service in the immediate postwar period, stated to the House on 17th February, 1944:
Whatever form our economy may take after the war, it seems reasonably certain that the complexity of administration will, at any rate for many years, be greater than it was before the war."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th February, 1944; Vol. 397, c. 336.]
The days are long past when the State was no more than protector, law giver and tax gatherer. With the support of the nation, the State has shouldered many new duties in our social and economic affairs. Critics often ignore the fact that the size of the Service depends more than anything else on the jobs it is told to do.
Thus the acceptance of full employment as a prime aim of policy requires staff to plan our resources, in order to develop to the full the productivity of our industry. Great reforms are being realised in our social services. The Ministry of National Insurance, which was established in November, 1944, now numbers 12,000 and will rise to 32,000 over the next two years, though mainly by the transfer of staffs now engaged on similar work in the employment of the Approved Societies, and not by the withdrawal of labour from productive employment. Increases must also be expected in the Departments concerned with education and health as a result of the extension of these services.
Other new Departments dealing with civil aviation and town and country planning have been expanded to cope with the new functions imposed on them by Parliament. In civil aviation, further increases, numbering some thousands, will result from State management of civil airfields in this country. The Agriculture Bill now before Parliament will involve the transfer of 10,000 staffs from the county agricultural committees to the direct employment of the Ministry of Agriculture. This again will involve no real increase in numbers or withdrawal from productive employment.
I turn to the factor of efficiency. During and since the war the Service has worked under a very great pressure, and there has been insufficient trained staff and opportunities for that continuous control of the operations of Departments without which no large organisation can remain at the highest point of efficiency. Moreover, the normal methods of recruitment were suspended throughout the war years. Recruitment has now been resumed and is in full swing, and administrative economies are being pursued with energy over the whole field of Government. This will improve the already high standard of administration and will result in some reduction of the numbers required for a given block of duties. But I should be wrong if I were to lead the House to expect that any very large saving can result from improved efficiency over a short period. Time must be allowed for the new recruits to learn their duties, and for the new organisations created during and after the war to settle down.
The House will expect me to say what, putting all these factors together, I expect will be the trend of Civil Service numbers. At the end of last year I set on foot an inquiry into Civil Service numbers. The instructions were to examine staff numbers and also the need for functions and duties, and where possible to fix staff ceilings for each Department. As an interim measure. Departments were instructed that the numbers of their staffs at 1st January were a maximum, which was not to be exceeded without special permission; they were instructed at the same time to lose no opportunity in making reductions where possible below this ceiling. The first-fruits of that instruction are now shown in a reduction of over 5,000 over the first quarter of the year. But while the upward trend has been checked, the decreases likely to be achieved over the next twelve months may well be more than counterbalanced by the large increases in the Ministry of National Insurance and the Ministry of Agriculture, which, however, as I have explained, involve no fresh drain on the manpower otherwise available for productive purposes.
But against this, a substantial reduction —amounting, as I have said, to over 100,000 people—can be expected when war-time terminal activities are completed, and rationing and the controls are relaxed or removed. We intend to press forward to this objective with all possible speed, but in the end the last word remains with Parliament, which settles the broad scope of the duties which the Service has to carry out. Some decrease in numbers can also be looked for from increasing efficiency when the Civil Service has had time to adjust itself after the disturbances of the war years.
Royal Commission On The Press (Evidence)
46.
asked the Prime Minister whether the evidence heard in camera last week by the Royal Commission inquiring into the Press will be subsequently published.
The Royal Commission's procedure is a matter for the Royal Commission itself to decide, but I am informed by the chairman of the Royal Commission that the Commission has not closed its mind to the possibility of eventually publishing some of the evidence taken orally in private. It does not feel able to come to a final decision on this point at the present stage but it has decided to publish as they are received the written memoranda which it will ask the principal witnesses to submit.
The right hon. Gentleman will be aware of the statement of the Commission that they do not propose to publish any oral evidence, the reason given being that that will enable witnesses to talk more freely. Is he aware that that has never been accepted in a court of law as a reason for hearing evidence in camera? Secondly, is it not a fact that this Commission was set up for the purpose of investigating certain allegations and charges made against the Press? Why should not those accusers come out into the open and substantiate their allegations in public?
In the first place, it is not a court of law, and the Royal Commission make their own procedure. In the second place, this Commission was set up to inquire into the best method of ensuring the freedom of the Press.
Is the Prime Minister aware that the decision to hear evidence in private is repugnant to those who sponsored the Motion for this Commission? Is he further aware that the Government have been blamed for this decision? Could he throw some light on the matter? Lastly, is it possible to alter and revise the terms of reference to ensure that evidence shall be taken in public?
That question should be put on the Order Paper. The point was made perfectly clear at the time of the appointment of the Commission that it is for the Commission to settle their own procedure.
Does not the Prime Minister think that this is rather an extraordinary procedure? In diplomacy we have open covenants openly arrived at. Apparently, in this case we will have open covenants secretly arrived at.
This is not a Government decision. This is a matter entirely decided by the Members of the Royal Commission.
Is it not true that the Government set up this Royal Commission, and would it not have been wise to have made sure that their proceedings were publicly conducted?
Will the Prime Minister bear in mind that this decision is not repugnant to all those who sponsored the Motion for the setting up of this Commission? In this connection, will he also remind the Royal Commission of the danger of the subtler forms of victimisation?
While appreciating that the Commission has the responsibility for its own procedure, will the Prime Minister indicate to the Commission the undesira- bility of this procedure, in view of the general acceptance of its repugnance, and will he indicate that this procedure will shake confidence in any findings which they may make?
National Finance Postwar Credits
47.
asked the Chan cellor of the Exchequer how many persons have died after the age of entitlement to, but before completing the form of application for, payment of postwar credits, so preventing beneficiaries under the age of entitlement from receiving payment; what is the total sum involved; in how many of these cases is the widow of the deceased an unpaid beneficiary; and what is the total sum involved.
I regret that this information is not available.
Would not more liaison between the Registrar-General and the right hon. Gentleman's Department produce these figures, and would the right hon. Gentleman say whether consideration is being given to paying such people?
I am afraid it would mean a substantial increase in the Civil Service if we had to get all these details. Of course, we keep in touch with all other Departments, but this mass of detail is not available.
Will the right hon. Gentleman look at the whole question and see whether he cannot remedy this very great unfairness to old people? Just because a man does not happen to have signed a form, that is rather hard on the widow.
We will seek to remove any injustice, but I do not think that the picture is quite as black as it is painted.
Oil (Dollar Payments)
49.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the estimated savings in dollar payments during the financial year 1947–8 resulting from recent agreements signed by British firms for the supply of oil.
Direct dollar savings are unlikely in 1947–48. The advantages are long-term.
Loans Abroad (Interest)
50.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will give an assurance that His Majesty's Government will not make loans abroad at interest rates more favourable than those gained by His Majesty's Govern ment in the case of the U.S. Loan.
No, Sir. Our capacity for making loans will continue to be very limited, but I am not prepared to bind myself as to the terms on which any such loans may be made.
Will the Chancellor bear in mind that any loan made on terms more favourable than those received from America is bound to result in a further commitment of dollar exchange on the part of this country?
Small Savings
51.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to what cause, or causes, he attributes the recent continued drop in small savings.
Partly to Whitsun, partly to the fact that it takes a little time to bring home to the public the new facilities for investment in Savings Certificates. The Chairman of the National Savings Committee published on 20th June a full statement on the recent figures. I am sending the hon. Member a copy.
In view of the fact that in the last month there has been an actual disinvestment, which did not take place in Whitsun last year, will the right hon. Gentleman say whether this is due either to the fact that people have not so much money in their pockets or that they have lost faith in the security which is offered?
I should say that it is certainly not due to the second cause and only doubtfully to the first. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will read the copy which I am sending to him of a statement which has already been circulated in the Press.
United States And Uk Films (Earnings)
52 and 53.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (I) the total amount of net earnings in the United Kingdom of United States films during the calendar years 1944, 1945 and 1946; and what part of these sums has been remitted to the U.S.A. in each of these years;
(2) the sum of dollars obtained from the earnings of British films in the U.S.A. during the calendar years 1944, 1945 and 1946, and remitted to the United Kingdom after the deduction of dollar expenses.In each year net earnings of United States films in the United Kingdom, and remittances from them, were slightly over £17 million. Dollar remittances from the earnings of British films in the U.S.A. are still relatively very small.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman feel that this disproportion is very unsatisfactory, and is he satisfied that we really have frittered away £34 million worth of dollars in the last two years out of the precious American loan?
It is not a satisfactory position and this matter has often been discussed in the House. We are, of course, seeking to stimulate the flow of dollars from British films in the United States in regard to which some progress, I am glad to think, has been made. I would not use the word "fritter" unconditionally with regard to the amusements of the people. The right hon. Gentleman may have noticed that a Resolution appears on the Order Paper today which has a bearing on this matter.
[ That the Treasury shall have power by order to alter or add to section ten of the Finance Act, 1935, so as to secure that the value of ex-posed cinematograph film shall for the purpose of customs duties be determined in such manner as may be provided by the order..]
Is it really a fact that no figure can be given of the net remittances of dollar earnings of British films in the United States?
I would rather not do so. I do not like to give figures unless we can stand, upon them and unless we can really depend on them. There are so many factors in this case, including the necessary expenses incurred on the other side, that I would not like to offer the House any figure for which I could not vouch at this stage as being accurate. I can say frankly that they are relatively small.
Will the Chancellor ensure that if substantial import cuts have to be made, American films will be the highest possible priority on the list and food the least priority?
Loose talk about priorities gets us little distance. My hon. Friend also will have noticed the Resolution on the Order Paper.
Double Taxation (Jamaica)
54.
asked 'the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether arrangements to avoid double taxation have been concluded between the United Kingdom and Jamaica.
Not yet.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when these arrangements are likely to be completed?
We make them as soon as we can. This is one of a number of cases now being discussed with the responsible authorities.
Motor Car Taxation
55.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much additional taxation he expects to collect in a full year by doubling the Purchase Tax on motor cars whose price, exclusive of Purchase Tax, exceeds £1,000.
About £1,500,000.
Does the Chancellor realise that for the collection of' a comparatively small amount of revenue of that sort he is probably going to ruin at least half a dozen motor car firms in this country?
No, Sir.
56.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much it would cost to apply the flat rate of tax to old motor cars as well as to new.
Five and a half million pounds in 1948 on cars registered before 1947, in addition to £1 million on cars first registered in 1947 or 1948.
Denmark (British Exports)
57.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he is contemplating having further financial discussions with the Danish Government, in view of the difficulties of exporting British goods to that country.
Yes, Sir. But Denmark's ability to purchase our goods depends on the amount of sterling she can earn from her exports.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Denmark is now exporting a considerable amount of food which we require to other countries, and unless he pays the prices asked for, they will not be in a position to buy British goods?
The existing food agreements between ourselves and Denmark will come up for revision later, is the Autumn.
United States Magazines (Importation)
58.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what quantity of dollars has been made avail-able for the importation of U.S. magazines during the current year.
Two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in the first five months of 1947.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that advertisements are being circulated to potential subscribers to a whole variety of American magazines and, in view of the dollar situation, will he take action to limit this?
It is very difficult to limit orders which go through the post in the isolated form mentioned by the hon. Member. Imports by licence definitely are limited.
Museums And Art Galleries
59.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he is aware of the demand for museums and art galleries to be kept open later than 7 p.m.; and whether he will make arrangements for national museums and art galleries to meet this demand.
I am aware of no demand sufficient to justify the additional expenditure of manpower and fuel.
"Work Or Want" Poster (Cost)
60.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the total cost of the Government's "Work or Want" poster campaign up to the last convenient date.
About £42,000 to date.
Does the right hon. Gentleman think that he is getting value for money in this expenditure?