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National Service Bill

Volume 440: debated on Thursday 17 July 1947

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Lords Amendments considered

Clause 5—(Liability To Complete Interrupted Service)

Lords Amendment: In page 4, line 16, leave out from "person" to end of Clause and insert:

"applies in the prescribed manner to the Minister for the cancellation or variation of the notice on the ground that he is not liable to be called upon to undertake part-time service under this section or is liable to undertake a term of part-time service shorter than that specified in the notice, the Minister shall, unless he grants the application, refer it to a referee selected by the Minister from a panel of persons nominated by the Lord Chancellor; and the notice shall not become operative to enter or enlist the applicant for service except as from such date and for such a term as may be determined by the Minister or the referee as aforesaid "

10.10 p.m.

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

It may be for the convenience of the House if I explain that this Amendment and the subsequent Amendments have been put down by the Government, in another place, in response to undertakings that were given in this House to hon. Members who raised a number of questions in the previous Debates on this Bill. I hope that in each case we have fully carried out the undertakings specifically given, and the promise that we would look into the matter. These Amendments carry out those undertakings, and unless there is any desire for some explanation, I propose to say no more.

I should just like to thank the right hon. Gentleman and the Government for the way in which they have met the point I raised in this regard on the Report stage. I did raise the point about the man who wished to dispute the notice given in writing. I presume that will be covered by the prescribed regulations.

I feel sure—and I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will state that it is the fact—that the notice served upon the individual will inform him of his rights of making representations if he thinks the notice is wrong.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause 6—(Calling Up For Training During Part-Time Service)

Lords Amendment: In line 43, at end insert:

"so, however, that the maximum punishment that may be awarded in respect of any such offence shall be, in the case of a person convicted by a court of summary jurisdiction, a fine of twenty-five pounds, and in any other case detention or imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years."

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

I think the point of this Amendment meets entirely the arguments we put forward. I think it is right to say that there is a difference in punishment imposed under the various codes, and in some cases penal servitude can be imposed for desertion. I hope that at some time an opportunity will be taken to bring those codes more into line. At the same time, I am glad that the Attorney-General has met the point, as he said he would in the course of our previous discussion.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause 13—(Prohibition Of Dismissal Of Employees By Reason Of Liability For Service)

Lords Amendment: In page 9, line 44, leave out "umpires" and insert "the umpire."

I beg to move, "That this House cloth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

There seems to be something a little wrong with this Amendment. In page 9, at line 44, one sees the words "umpires and deputy umpires." If we leave out "umpires" and insert "the umpire," the sentence would read, starting in line 43:

"Section eight (which relates to Reinstatement Committees the umpire …)"—
which seems to me to be bad grammar. I imagine it is that "umpires" which is being taken out. If it is the other "umpires" it would read:
"Section eight (which relates to Reinstatement Committees umpires and deputy the umpire)."
I am not quite sure that the drafting is right.

So far as I understand it, it is mainly a question of phraseology. I think the purpose is to refer to "the umpire" in that case, and then to "deputy umpires." So it should be "the umpire," who is a single individual, whereas there might be more than one deputy umpire.

Question put, and agreed to.

Third Schedule—Minor And Consequential Amendments Of The National Service Acts, 1939 To 1946

Lords Amendment: In page 18, line 24, at end insert:

"and at the end of subsection (2), there shall be added the following words—
'and in particular, without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provision, the Minister may, if he is in doubt whether an enlistment notice served on any person other than by registered post has been received by him, cause a further enlistment notice to be served on him by registered post and may by that notice direct that the former notice shall be deemed never to have had effect.'"

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

It seems to me that this Amendment does not go quite as far as was expected, in view of the arguments put forward when this matter was discussed on the Committee stage. I should be glad if my right hon. Friend would give an assurance. It is stated that:

"the Minister may, it he is in doubt whether an enlistment notice served on any person other than by registered post has been received by him, cause a further enlistment notice to be served on him by registered post and may by that notice direct that the former notice shall be deemed never to have had effect."
It seems to me that that does not go far enough, because if the Minister is in doubt whether a notice has been served, then obviously the benefit of the doubt ought to be given to the person to whom the notice should have been served. We should be given an assurance that a man will not be in jeopardy in such circumstances, and that another notice will be served. I think the word "shall" should be inserted instead of "may."

I do not share the doubts of the hon. Member for West Leicester (Mr. Janner), in view of an Amendment which is to be considered later. I feel a little doubt about the

NAVY. ARMY AND AIR EXPENDITURE, 1945–46

Resolutions reported:
1. Whereas it appears by the Navy Services Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March 1946, that, as shown in the Schedule hereunto appended, the total surpluses and deficits on Navy Votes for that year are as follows:—
£s.d.£s.d.
Total Surpluses, viz.:—
Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated receipts (Votes 2–6 and 8–16)55,106,623124
Deduct—Sum to be surrendered to the Exchequer in respect of the Excess of receipts over the total of Appropriations-in-Aid authorised by Parliament8,215,984157
46,890,638169
Total Deficits, viz.:—
Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated receipts (Votes 1 and 7)46,890,638169
Excesses of actual over estimated gross expenditure721,843,2601511
768,733,899128
Net Deficit charged to the Vote of Credit£721,843,2601511
And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of that part of the surplus receipts realised under Votes 2 to 6 and 8 to 16 which is required to make good the deficit in receipts under Votes 1 and 7.
1. That the application of such surpluses be sanctioned.
[For details of Schedule see OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th July, 1947; Vol. 440, c. 181–2.]

drafting, because the circumstances in which the Minister can be in doubt under this arrangement seem to me unlikely to arise. I think that the point raised by the hon. Member, and by hon. Members on this side of the House, in our previous discussion is adequately covered by this Amendment, if the three Amendments are considered together.

I will try to explain the position. A notice will be sent to a man telling him to report. If he does not report on the day given, the Service authorities will report to the Ministry of Labour that he has not appeared. We shall then take it that he has not received his notice, and send a further notice by registered post. That notice will cancel the previous notice which brought him into the Forces, so that the man in question cannot possibly be arrested as a deserter.

That is a very satisfactory answer, and I am very pleased to have the assurance.

Question put, and agreed to.

Remaining Lords Amendments agreed to.

11. Whereas it appears by the Army Services Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1946, that, as shown in the Schedule hereunto appended, the total surpluses and deficits on Army Votes for that year are as follows:—
Total Surpluses, viz.:—£s.d.£s.d.
Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated receipts (Votes 2–15)30,250,475179
Total Deficits, viz.:—
Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated receipts (Vote 1)188,365,139311
Excesses of actual over estimated gross expenditure1,309,873,523172
1,498,238,66311
Net Deficit charged to the Vote of Credit£1,467,988,18734
And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of surplus receipts realised under Votes 2 to 15 towards making good the deficit in receipts under Vote 1.
2. That the application of such surpluses be sanctioned.
[For details of Schedule see OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th July, 1947; Vol. 440, c. 183–4.]

III. Whereas it appears by the Air Services Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March 1946 that, as shown in the Schedule hereunto appended, the total surpluses and deficits on Air Votes for that year are as follows:—
Total Surpluses, viz.:—£s.d.£s.d.
Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated receipts (Votes 2–11)54,669,692112
Total Deficits, viz.:—
Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated receipts (Vote 1)65,540,918175
Excesses of actual over estimated gross expenditure510,859,611191
576,400,530166
Net Deficit (charged to the Vote of Credit)£521,730,83854
And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of surplus receipts realised under Votes 2 to 11 towards making good the deficit in receipts under Vote 1.
3. That the application of such surpluses be sanctioned.
[For details of Schedule see OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th July, 1947: Vol. 440, c. 185–6.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolutions."

10.20 p.m.

This may appear to be a formal matter, but I do not think the House should pass it entirely formally. This is a very useful piece of procedure. I remember, during the war, being very irritated by the procedure which obtained in the years before the war, whereby the Treasury would not write off the deficit on one Vote against the surplus of another. That had a bad effect on our preparations for the war effort. When there was a surplus of money available for wireless experiments, it could not be converted to tanks and, consequently, the whole of our tank production suffered. I am delighted to find that now, in peace time, we have returned to the original and correct practice. I do not think the House should pass these Resolutions without some comment. It is true that the Public Accounts Committee—

The noble Lord is not in Order. The only question is whether debits can be set against credits. Details cannot be discussed, as they have already been passed.

We have formally to pass the procedure by which the credits and debits are aligned by the Treasury, and the net result is brought before this House for sanction. Under the Navy heading, there is a deficit approximately of £720 million; under the Army heading there is a deficit of approximately £146 million; and under the Air Force heading there is a deficit of approximately £521 million. These are fantastic sums, and although they have been passed by the Public Accounts Committee, they reflect on the situation in 1945–46, during nine months of which we were at peace. If it is a fact that the great spending Departments, in a particular year, during nine months of which we were at peace so inaccurately budgeted.

the question of expenditure has already been discussed and settled; the only question now is whether expenditure can be covered by a Vote of Credit.

Then may I express the hope that this time next year we shall not see such very large discrepancies between the receipts from one Department and the expenditure of another Department, which are brought before this House for equalisation and sanction? I object to the fact that these great discrepancies between income and expenditure should have occurred in a year during nine months of which we have been at peace, and I ask for more accurate budgeting in future. I think I am in order in saying that.

I think not. If the hon. Gentleman will look at the Vote, he will see that he can only argue about the surpluses.

We are under force majeure. The Public Accounts Committee has sanctioned them, and they come before the House now for formal approval. I submit that anything brought before the House is not entirely formal, and to some extent can be debated. However, I do not wish to prolong the discussion.

Question put, and agreed to.