asked the Minister of Defence what estimated annual saving in petrol will be secured as a result of his instructions to the Service Depart-in regard to economy.

It is estimated that consumption of motor spirit by the Services in the year ending 30th June, 1948, will be about 620,000 tons as compared with 1,065,000 tons in the previous year—a drop of over 40 per cent. It is not possible to say how much of this saving is the result of specific economies, but the reduction has been effected relatively more quickly than the reduction in manpower strengths.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for his satisfactory reply, may I ask him whether the instructions issued to the Services indicated the hardship being suffered by the civilian community through being deprived of their basic petrol ration?

The Services have been left in no doubt about the urgency of the need for economy.

Will my right hon. Friend indicate that when he used the term "motor spirit" he did not use it in accordance with the Trade and Navigation Returns of the Board of Trade, but exclusively as a fuel used for internal combustion engines on land, excluding aviation spirit?

Yes, Sir. The figure does not include aviation spirit. A reduction of 44,000 tons of aviation spirit is foreshadowed, but we must keep sufficient to provide for efficient training.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many gallons are involved, so that the public can more readily understand the matter without having to be senior wranglers?

I shall have to work it out.

Having said that it is hoped to save some aviation spirit, will my right hon. Friend investigate how much can be saved by dropping the Royal Air Force practice of using high octane spirit for cleaning purposes, including cleaning hangar floors?

If my hon. Friend has any information about that I should be glad if he would put it to my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Air.

I have already done so.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that the proportion of the economy will not be so great in the case of armoured units, requiring petrol for training; as in the case of ordinary maintenance units, using it for administrative purposes?

We have indicated that we require a certain economy, and I would rather leave it to the Army themselves to make that economy in the place where it will be felt least.

Will my right hon. Friend look into the question of combining elementary flying training of the Air Force and Naval Air Arm, where that is suitable?

A great deal of elementary flying training is already being done by the Royal Air Force for the Navy, and has been done for many years past. But if there is any further development in that direction a Question might be put to the Admiralty.

asked the Minister of Defence how many meetings of the Defence Committee have taken place since its inception, and how many of these meetings have been attended by the Minister of Transport.

It would be against the public interest to give the information which the hon. Member seeks.

On what occasion shall we be able to discuss this type of question, and the problem of transport in relation to defence? Is that kept firmly in view by the Defence Committee?

That would be a matter for Mr. Speaker, but page 337 of Erskine May shows that a question is inadmissible either on decisions or proceedings of the Cabinet or the Committee of Imperial Defence.

Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that there is sufficient coordination between the three Services and the Ministry of Transport?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Minister of Defence what proportion of the 1,050,000 acres occupied by the Forces is in Scotland and how this compares with the figures of land occupied by the Forces in 1938.

Nearly In per cent. as compared with about 7 per cent. in 1938.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the War Office are contemplating taking another 21,000 acres of land in Roxburghshire? Will he reconsider this matter?

My hon. Friend will be seeing the White Paper which is being laid today. As indicated by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War yesterday, Scotland is having a much smaller share of her land used for Service purposes than other parts of Britain. We have had pressure from other directions to take more land in Scotland and less elsewhere.

Can my right hon. Friend say how much of this land was formed food producing, and how much is food producing now, and what is being done to repair the consequent loss to the community?

That matter is dealt with in the White Paper. Perhaps my hon. and learned Friend will study it.

When the land of Scotland is being taken will those parts which are not of high agricultural value be taken?

I do not think that the White Paper will show that there is a great percentage of the land to be used anywhere which is of high agricultural value.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the land on the Cheviots which it is proposed to take over is the finest sheep land in the South of Scotland?

I am sure that all that will be examined during the usual procedure which will deal with the merits of such questions.

asked the Minister of Defence how many officers in each of the Services serving in London are brought from their residences to their offices and taken home again by official Service cars; what are the ranks of such officers; and how many cars are used for such purposes in each Service; and what is the total amount of petrol consumed in such journeys.

As I have already explained to the hon. Member in a letter, this is a matter of detailed administration for which responsibility to Parliament rests with the Service Ministers, and cannot be regarded as falling within the scope of the purposes for which the Ministry of Defence was set up.

Does not the Minister consider that the present circumstances impose a need for a common policy in the Services on this matter, especially in view of the need for civilian fuel, and the hardship caused to the civilian population in areas where public transport is not available?

There is no doubt about the need for economy, and that is constantly being pressed. Detailed information about Service officers, cars, and matters of this kind can only be obtained, by putting Questions to the Ministers responsible to Parliament for the administration of the Services, as explained in Paragraph 20 of the White Paper on Central Organisation for Defence.

asked the Minister of Defence at whose discretion and on whose authority, are deserters, convicted of civil crimes, discharged from the forces; and whether he can give an estimate of the numbers involved in such discharges.

A number of men, not necessarily deserters, convicted of civil crimes have been discharged, if their sentences were lengthy or if they had shown through continual misbehaviour that they were useless to the Forces. Discharges of this kind require the authority of the Service Department concerned at home, or of the Commander-in-Chief concerned overseas. I am afraid I cannot give a reliable estimate of the number of deserters concerned.

Does my right hon Friend's rather vague answer mean that a deserter who commits a sufficiently serious misdemeanour or felony can by that method secure his discharge from the Forces?

I do not think that can be assumed at all. All these cases are dealt with entirely on their merits. In dealing with cases such as desertion and other forms of serious crime, the continuance of the service of a man who has committed such a crime might be of great detriment to the Service, and the Service authorities have the right to consider whether the man should not be discharged in the interests of the Service.

Can the Minister say, when these men escape from his control, if they are handed over to the Ministry of Labour, and can they be directed?

I should like notice of that question.

Is the Minister aware that the police informed me that gangs invite discontented soldiers to commit burglary? If they are not caught, they get the proceeds of the burglary, and, if they are caught, they get dismissed from the Army for burglary.

Every case is dealt with on its merits.

In view of the importance of this matter, how can hon. Members assess the character of this difficulty if they are not given the information for which I have asked? Can we have a figure given of the numbers of men involved in such discharges? Surely, that is a simple matter.

It is not quite so simple. If we have continually to expand the administration to make detailed inquiries into every one of these questions, we should go on and on increasing the Civil Service.

asked the Minister of Defence, having regard to the increase in the number of deserters since March last by approximately 3,500 and the difficulties attendant in resolving this problem, what were the methods adopted at the end of the 1914–18 war; and if he proposes to consider the use of the same methods at the present time.

The number of deserters outstanding has decreased by about 800 since 31st March, not increased by 3,500 as stated by my hon. Friend. After the 1914–18 war a procedure was adopted which meant that except in the worst cases no further action was taken to recover wartime deserters, but this did not operate until after compulsory military service had been abolished. Present conditions are totally dissimilar and for this, and other reasons which I have already explained, a similar policy cannot be adopted now.

Will not my right hon. Friend give this matter his serious consideration? How does he hope to solve this problem unless he uses a certain amount of courage and vision. Why does not he show a certain amount of courage in standing up to the "Blimps" in the Service Departments, and on the other side of the House?

I do not need any lessons from my hon. Friend upon courage or the occasions on which to use it. I have been tackling this matter for many months past. More than 3,000 men are being quite satisfactorily rehabilitated in response to my offer, and my hon. Friend is only doing a disservice to the men who have not yet responded by deterring them from taking the proper course.

In view of the fact that this subject was down for the Adjournment on Monday last and was not called, may I give notice that if the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Air-Commodore Harvey) does not raise it, I intend to do so at the earliest possible opportunity.

asked the Minister of Defence how many men classified as deserters in each year since 1939 were men who did not report for service on call-up; and what percentage they formed of the total figure of deserters in each year.

I regret that this information is not readily available and could not be produced without considerable labour. In general, however, I may say that the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force have been able to select their National Service men from among those who expresse a preference for one or other of those Services. Very few of such men have failed to report on call-up.

As regards the Army, if my hon. Friend puts down a question, I have no doubt my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War will do his best to provide any information which is readily available.

Arising out of the rather astounding reply of my right hon. Friend, is he aware that this is a very important aspect of the problem; that these men have no difficulty in obtaining ordinary civilian ration books for as long as they evade call-up; and will he tell the House how it is, if he was prepared the other night to answer a Debate on the Adjournment, why he had not asked his own Department to get this information for him?

Speech.

The hon. Member's Question is really getting intolerably long.

asked the Minister of Defence whether the strength of the three services will be reduced to 700,000 by 31st March, 1948; and what will be the strength of each service at that date.

No, Sir. The position remains as stated by me on 23rd October last, when I said that the revised estimate of the strengths of the Forces at 31st March next was 147,000 for the Royal Navy, 527,000 for the Army, and 263,000 for the Royal Air Force, giving a total of 937,000 for the three Services.

While I express gratitude for that statement, may I ask if the right hon. Gentleman will ensure that the Secretary of State for War does not mislead the public in his week-end speeches, and, therefore, that he does not cast more doubt upon the whole of this important question than is necessary?

I think that the Secretary of State for War has already issued an explanation showing the fallibility of some of the reports made, and that he was referring rather to the trend of reduction than committing himself to figures.

Can the Minister say whether he has anything in mind with a view to co-ordinating the three Services?

We are following up the policy which we laid before the House when the White Paper was discussed 12 months ago in regard to certain Services upon which we required convincing, and we hope to deal with the matter in the White Paper to be laid before Parliament in a few months.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that this type of statement by the Secretary of State for War, even in the form of a forecast, has a most disturbing effect on the people in the Services, and has it not become something of a habit of the Secretary of State for War to do this sort of thing?

On a point of Order. Are hon. Members entitled to ask questions on a statement which has been officially denied? Have they the right to question a statement which the Secretary of War did not make?

Hon. Members are entitled to clarify any doubt that they have in their minds. Some hon. Members may not have heard the Secretary of State for War deny it.

I do not want to discuss what the Secretary of State for War may or may not have said. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is quite clear that the policy laid down previously in the White Paper is unchanged, whatever the Secretary of State for War may or may not have said?

Yes, Sir, of course. No detailed conclusions of the Government with regard to the financial year 1948–49 can be stated before the Estimates for the year have been settled, and the White Paper laid before Parliament.

asked the Minister of Defence what changes he intends to the National Service Scheme whereby the strength of the active Army, including the intake, will be only 300,000 in 1949; or whether he has now decided that the regular strength of the Army is to be less than 200,000.

Final decisions regarding the strengths of the Forces for 1948–49 will be taken by the Government in considering the financial provision to be made in the Defence Estimates for that year. Those decisions will be announced in the Defence White Paper, and I would ask the hon. Member to await its publication.

(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State whether he has any statement to make about the recent disturbances in Aden; what is the number of lives lost; how much property has been burnt or otherwise destroyed and what measures are contemplated for restoring and maintaining public order and ensuring equal protection for all citizens irrespective of race or creed.

A partial Arab strike was observed in Men on 2nd December without incident in the morning, but in the evening of that day a large hostile demonstration approached the Jewish quarter in the part of Aden known as the Crater. The police succeeded generally in protecting the quarter for a time, but looting of Jewish shops ensued, which could not be wholly controlled in spite of the use of tear smoke and deliberate rifle fire. As the situation was deteriorating, the Governor called for military aid, and the Air Officer Commanding, who is the Fortress Commander, assumed control. One hundred Arabs had been arrested and the night passed quietly, but on the following day there was fresh fire-raising mob action in the Crater, and the Governor proclaimed a state of emergency in the Colony and authorised the Fortress Commander to enforce a curfew in the Crater. In spite of these measures extensive looting of Jewish stores and shops occurred and many Jewish houses were burned. About 900 Jews living in the suburb of Sheikh Othman were evacuated to the nearby Jewish migration camp which was under military protection, but 14 Jews who remained behind were killed by rioters.

H.M.S. "Contest" and H.M.S. "Cockade" and H.M.S. "Challenger," being at the time at Aden, landed detachments of naval ratings which had a valuable effect, and on the morning of 5th December two companies of the North Staffordshire Regiment reached Aden by air from Egypt.

On 6th December the Governor reported that the situation had become generally calmer although sporadic fire-raising attempts had still been made. He stated the known casualties on that date to be 34 Arabs, two Indians and 75 Jews killed and some hundreds of both Jewish and Arab communities wounded. His Majesty's Government and the Government of Aden deeply deplore this loss of life. I have not yet received a detailed statement of the property burnt or otherwise destroyed, and the figures of casualties that I have given are the latest available.

On 8th December the Governor reported the situation since Saturday last to be generally calm, and all necessary measures are being taken to maintain order and to ensure protection for all communities.

Will my hon. Friend inquire to see whether the reported number of 140 Jews killed is correct; whether it is correct that two synagogues were burnt to the ground; whether it is correct that the only two Jewish schools were burned to the ground, and whether anything will be done to afford reasonable compensation as well as security in the future.

As I have already stated, I am awaiting a detailed statement of the property burned or otherwise destroyed and until then there is nothing I can add.

Would the Under-Secretary tell us whether the personnel of the police force in Aden is recruited from this country and how many casualties they have suffered?

I cannot answer that question without notice.

Could my hon. Friend tell the House whether this is British protected territory and whether responsibility for maintaining law and order remains with His Majesty's Government when the country remains British protected territory?

This territory is not actually British protected territory but is a British colony. The British protected territory is to the north of this particular part in which this incident occurred.

Has the hon. Gentleman any reason to believe that those responsible did not do their duty to the full in very difficult circumstances?

I am quite sure that they fully carried out their duty and we are very grateful to them for acting in this way in very difficult circumstances.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is no Army or R.A.F. unit stationed in the Crater and that most of them are in Khormaksar or Steamer Point about eight or nine miles away from this thickly populated area, and could he not see his way to make arrangements for permanent Army or R.A.F. units to be stationed inside this area to prevent a recurrence of such outrages?

The question of the location of units is a matter for the officer commanding the garrison and I would not interfere with his discretion in this matter.

In view of the supplementary question asked by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley) a moment ago will my hon. Friend bear in mind that no criticism whatever was implied in my Question of the action of the authorities on the spot who appeared to have acted with commendable speed and authority as soon as they realised what was going on? My question was directed to the future not to the past.

I am glad to accept my hon. Friend's assurance on that point.