asked the Postmaster-General if he will consider introducing lower postal rates for parcels sent overseas by air, in view of the great difference between air mail charges and surface mail charges, and the hardship caused to many firms wishing to send samples of export goods overseas.

Second class mail, which includes samples, may be sent by air mail at reduced postage rates to the whole of Central and South America and the West Indies. I hope very shortly to provide similar facilities to Canada, the United States of America and Mexico, and to extend them to Commonwealth destinations on the "Empire" routes to South Africa, India and Australia by about the end of the year.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that in the meantime the present charges are a severe handicap to our export trade and that a constituent of mine who wanted to send a parcel to Australia found that whereas the charge by surface mail was 11d. the cost by air mail was 33s.; and will he look into this matter and do something before the end of the year?

Yes, Sir. I realise that the handicap exists and I should like to remedy it as soon as possible.

asked the Postmaster-General what was the capital cost of providing teleprinters in the Ministry of Labour regional offices; and what is the annual cost of maintaining them.

The capital cost of providing teleprinters in Ministry of Labour regional offices was £1,952. The annual cost of maintenance is £656.

Did the Postmaster-General make any inquiry about the extent to which these teleprinters would be used before he agreed to instal them?

Whilst I am not quite sure that that was done, we have to be satisfied that these teleprinters are necessary before they are provided.

asked the Secretary of State for Air what steps are being taken to provide temporary airstrips in Hong Kong or the New Territories.

The Air Commander-in-Chief Far East has reported that the airfield facilities at Kai Tak are adequate for the aircraft at present based there. It would not be in the national interest to indicate any further steps which may be being taken to strengthen the air defences of the Colony.

Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that aircraft more modern than those already sent, which would probably be required for the defence of the Colony, could land on the present airfield?

The Question refers to temporary airstrips, and I have said that it is not in the public interest to indicate any further steps which may be being taken.

While that may not be in the public interest, is the Ministry taking steps to see that arrangements are made so that modern aircraft can be accommodated there?

I can certainly give the assurance that aircraft would not be sent unless there were airfields or airstrips from which they could operate.

Instead of airstrips at Hong Kong, would it not be much better to make diplomatic strides in view of the occupation of Shanghai?

asked the Secretary of State for Air how many days 2411872 A.C.2 H. L. Taylor has served in the Royal Air Force; how many of these days he has spent in sick bay, hospital or on leave; what medical grading he received on going into the Royal Air Force; what his grade is now; and what duties he is now performing.

He has served 203 days and 137 of these he has spent in sick bay, hospital or on leave. When he entered the Royal Air Force he was classified as fit for ground duty anywhere but he has since been downgraded as fit for home service only. He is now on his recruits' training course.

Is it not clear that this young man's health has been seriously impaired by his short period of service and that he is of very little value indeed to the Service—so far, in fact, he has provided no service of any value at all; will my hon. Friend bear in mind that this man's brother left the Army broken in health, and will he seriously consider the possibility of discharging this man from the Service?

This has been very carefully considered. The doctors believe this man to be getting on well, that the Service will benefit him and that he will give benefit to the Service. He will be re-examined again in a couple of months and may well be upgraded in health.

Will my hon. Friend say on what basis he makes the remarks that the Service will be of benefit to this man or that he will be of benefit to the Service, in view of the fact that 130 out of his 200 days' service have been spent sick?

On the first point, he is receiving excellent medical attention; we are taking very great care of him. On the second point, he still has many days' service left and we think we can get good value from him.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation why State-controlled airfields are to increase their landing charges for joy flights by a thousand per cent.

No increase is to be made for 1949, but the whole question of landing charges for joy flights will be subject to review at the end of the year.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that there are reports that charges will go up very considerably, and as we want this country to be as air-minded as possible will he do all he can to encourage these joy flights.

Yes, Sir. So far as my Ministry is concerned, we encourage joy flying from the point of view of creating airmindedness, but as hon. Members who represent constituencies with aerodromes in the vicinity will know, joy flying is not always favourably regarded by local residents.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation if he has given consideration to establishing a seaplane base on the Thames in view of the recent successful visit of the 35-ton flying boat "City of London."

I regret that regular flying boat operations on a busy waterway like the Thames would be impracticable.

Is my hon. Friend aware that on other equally busy waterways seaplanes—British seaplanes, too—have regularly used such ports? I have in mind the Nile at Cairo and the Clyde anchorages emergency port on the Clyde during the war.

Even on the Nile the shipping was an embarrassment to B.O.A.C., and I think that B.O.A.C. was an embarrassment to the shipping. It is equally true, if my geography is correct, that the Nile is non-tidal whereas the Thames is tidal; and the density of shipping and tidal conditions of the Thames make this proposal impossible.

While I do not dispute the Parliamentary Secretary's answer, may I ask whether any further action is being taken to give effect to the Pakenham Report?

That is not an urgent matter at present, because the S.R. 45 is the only new flying boat involved in the immediate future; and the report is not at present being proceeded with.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the Port of London Authority, who have some knowledge of the river and its shipping possibilities, have recommended that a seaplane base be established on the Thames?

On behalf of my noble Friend, I should like to say how much we appreciate the help of the Port of London Authority and the shipping interests in the recent landing of the flying boat on the Thames. Whilst it is a pleasure for people to do a thing once, to continue asking for that favour might become a nuisance.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary say where the S.R. 45 flying boat will operate from if not from London?

Southampton Water.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation on what date he received a letter from the Yorkshire Gliding Club about Air Navigation Regulations; whether he has replied to that letter; and what action he is taking to meet their complaints.

A letter dated 6th April was received by my noble Friend and has been answered by him. The reply dealt fully with the points raised and indicates that one of the matters, namely, the difficulty of applying the regulations relating to marks on aircraft to certain types of gliders used for practice and instruction, is being considered, together with other matters that have been raised by the British Gliding Association.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary explain why last week he failed to mention the letter received from the Yorkshire Gliding Club and why he described the information I gave about that letter as incorrect?

If the hon. Gentleman will refer to HANSARD he will see that he referred to the gliding club movement. Yorkshire is important, but it is not a movement yet.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation what steps are taken before associated agreements are granted to charter companies to run scheduled services, to ensure that the conditions set out in paragraph viii (a) of his directive, are in fact met by the charter companies concerned.

Each company is required by a clause in its agreement with the Corporation to undertake to observe the condition set out in paragraph (viii) (a) of the directive.

Is not my hon. Friend aware that a number of these charter companies have refused to sign an agreement with the British Airline Pilots' Association, even though those agreements were, as I think my hon. Friend will agree, most reasonable; and if they are, in fact, adhering to paragraph viii (a) can my hon. Friend say why this agreement has not been signed?

It is true that our attention has been called to the fact that certain charter companies are not observing fair rates of pay and conditions of employment. The associate agreement with B.E.A. is, I am informed, a contractual one and can be discontinued by B.E.A. on their being satisfied through the usual channels that the agreement is not being observed.

May I ask my hon. Friend to refer again to my Question, in which I asked what steps are taken to ensure that the agreements are in conformity with the directive sent out by his noble Friend?

In the first place, the associate agreement is a contractual obligation between B.E.A. and the persons with whom the agreement is made. Therefore, the first step must be made by one or other of those two sides. As far as any disagreement is concerned, if it cannot be resolved between the two sides the services of my Ministry, and particularly of the Ministry of Labour, who have a great deal of experience in these matters, are at the disposal of the unions and the Corporation.

I am sorry to press this matter, but in point of fact in the directive it is stated that before a recommendation is made to the Minister

"the Air Transport Advisory Council are asked to see that these conditions are fulfilled.…"

How do they make certain that the conditions are fulfilled?

The British Air Charter Association are doing their best to see that an agreement is, in fact, negotiated, but it is unfortunately true that a number of charter companies who are members of the British Air Charter Association are not prepared to make an agreement providing for rates of pay and conditions of service which are considered to be fair inside the trade union movement.

How does it come about that the pilots' association are prepared to supply pilots to these people who will not observe the conditions of the B.E.A.?

The pilots' association are a trade union and not an employment agency. They do not supply pilots; if they did, they would see that fair rates of wages were observed. These are negotiated in the normal way as between employer and employee.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what restrictions the Soviet authorities have placed on traffic to and from Berlin; what has been the effect of these restrictions; and what explanations have been received of the reasons for their imposition.

I apologise, Mr. Speaker, for the length of the reply. The Soviet authorities have imposed, or retained, since 12th May a number of restrictions on traffic to and from Berlin. Individually these may appear to be insignificant or technical in character. Collectively, their effect has been to limit the volume of supplies entering Berlin.

These restrictions include an insistence that all trains proceeding to Berlin must now be drawn by Soviet zone locomotives manned by Soviet zone crews. Prior to 1st March, 1948, Bizonal locomotives and crews were used and this practice was based upon a Soviet request in 1945.

Secondly, Soviet officers have been permanently installed at principal Western sector stations dealing with Allied traffic and are insisting upon supervising working of trains. They have instructed Reichsbahn officials that they are to refuse any Allied instructions not passed through them. This system did not obtain on 1st March, 1948.

Thirdly, the Soviet authorities have now stated that only the Helmstedt line may be used for traffic to Berlin. Before the blockade, a variable number of goods trains to Berlin was permitted to pass by alternative routes through Cebisfelde and through Probstzelle.

Fourthly, the Soviet authorities have contended that they are only obliged to provide facilities for a total of 16 Allied passenger and Allied and Kommandatura freight trains to Berlin a day. In fact, in the months previous to the blockade, the average number of trains was considerably higher than this.

Fifthly, the Soviet authorities, departing from previous practice, have placed restrictions upon the use of the autobahn from Helmstedt by commercial traffic to Berlin. They have also demanded documentation and permits for the movement of freight by road which were not required before the blockade.

Sixthly, they have insisted upon a new system of documentation and registration for barges entering from the Western zones. These documents have been forthcoming in very limited numbers and they appear to confer only a limited right of movement within the Soviet zone.

Vigorous representations have been made to the Soviet authorities in respect of each of these departures from pre-blockade practice. As a result, there have been relaxations on a number of points.

The right hon. Gentleman said just now that some of the traffic had been interfered with and delayed. Can he give any idea of the percentage of the traffic affected by these various restrictions?

I am afraid I cannot give a mathematical figure. I can only say that it has lessened the flow of traffic into Berlin without by any means throttling it.

In order to ensure the continuance of traffic into Berlin, are any steps being taken to reintroduce the three posts on the autobahn which we had before the restrictions were imposed?

Can the hon. Gentleman say what is the reduction in the daily volume of tonnage of materials sent by rail or by road?

Not without notice. Perhaps I might try to get the figure and let the hon. Member know.

Will my hon. Friend indicate the nature of the interference with traffic, particularly with railway traffic? Are the goods displaced, or transferred, and in what respect is there any guarantee that goods in the train are delivered at the end of the journey untouched?

I think my original reply gives details as to that.

Are these matters being discussed in Paris and, if not, would it not be better to see that the question of free traffic is raised before going forward with more important matters?

Discussions are proceeding in Berlin on this matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can yet make any statement as to arrangements for British citizens to make visits to Western Germany other than on business or compassionate grounds.

Yes, Sir. I am glad to inform the House that, following negotiations between the three Western Occupying Powers, the British zone of Germany will be open to ordinary visitors from other countries before the end of next month. The other Western Occupying Powers will, no doubt, be making similar announcements. The date, and guidance on how to apply for permits, will be made public as soon as possible.

My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has authorised me to say that the three Western zones of Germany will be added to the list of countries in which the basic travel allowance and the £10 car allowance may be used. He hopes, however, that applications for currency will not be made to banks and travel agents until the date on which the zones are to be opened has been finally announced.

Similarly, my right hon. and learned Friend hopes that applications for entry permits will not be made to military permit offices before further details of the scheme are announced.

Could the Minister inform the House whether preliminary arrangements have been made for visits by people in this country to occupied zones other than our own?

Yes, this applies to the Western zones.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether there will be any limit to the number of applications which can be considered this Summer?

I do not think so, but a further and more detailed statement will be made next week.

Could my hon. Friend say whether any particular arrangements are being made, or have been made, in respect of accommodation?

Accommodation will be in German hotels in the normal way.

Will reciprocal arrangements be made in the case of Germans who may want to come and see us in this country?

Perhaps my hon. Friend will put that question down.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on the murder of the two police inspectors in Hong Kong.

Yes, Sir. As the statement is rather long I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Could the Under-Secretary make this point clear: is there any suspicion that these murders took place as a result of Communist instigation either from within or outside the Colony? Is this the beginning of what happened in Malaya about a year ago?

I am informed that there is no evidence of that. It was a bandit raid and had no political significance.

On a point of Order. Is there no way in which we can ask the Minister to let us have the statement now? This matter concerns the lives of British subjects in an important theatre of operations.

That is a matter for the Minister.

Might the statement be given after Questions?

I will certainly give it after Questions.

At about 2.30 a.m. on 6th May, Inspector R. F. C. Olivier, Sub-Inspector L. Haynes and Detective Corporal Wong Kam, of the Hong Kong Police, were murdered as they slept aboard a police cruising launch secured at anchor for the night at Port Island in Mirs Bay in the N.E. territorial waters of the Colony. The coxswain was then wounded and compelled to steam the launch to a point in Chinese territory about one mile from the frontier where it was boarded by 16 men who made off with part of the armament.

It appears that one of the seamen of the launch had become friendly with a bandit gang that operates in Chinese territory not far from the Hong Kong frontier, and had concealed two members of the gang in the launch 36 hours before she left Kowloon. It is probable that he had persuaded the second seaman, a clansman of his, to assist him. There is no reason to suppose that the murders have a political background or that they form part of a larger plot.

Strenuous efforts are being made to trace the murderers and a large reward has been offered; the safe from the launch and all the weapons it contained have been recovered.

I have seen a report that Chinese Nationalist forces have killed three bandits said to have been responsible for the murder of Hong Kong police officers. My right hon. Friend has not yet heard from the Governor whether or not these are the murderers in question.

Can the hon. Gentleman say if the drivers of the launch, the two men mainly responsible, were sworn members of the Hong Kong Police or not?

I understand that they were seamen employed by the Police Department in connection with duties on the launch.

Were they sworn members of the police?

I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman had better put that Question down. I could not answer it now.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when the oath of allegiance declared by recruits to the Hong Kong Police was changed to its present form, which omits a pledge, "well and faithfully to serve His Majesty the King his heirs and successors"; and what was the reason for the change.

My right hon. Friend is looking into this matter and will communicate with the hon. Member in due course.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that, as a result of a survey made by the Trinidad Chamber of Commerce, it is clear that the prices of many consumer goods from the United Kingdom are more expensive than the price of similar articles from the United States of America and Canada, and that there is growing dissatisfaction that consumers are compelled to buy from the sterling area; and what action he proposes to take in this matter.

Some imports from the United Kingdom are dearer than similar goods from the United States and Canada. It is quite true that owing to the shortage of American and Canadian dollars imports from those countries have to be carefully controlled by import licensing. My right hon. Friend is aware of the difficulties and importance of this problem and has it under examination.

Does the Colonial Office realise the economic and political repercussions of this sort of thing, which, if it continues—if the disparity continues —must either mean dissatisfaction with this country, as the people with whom my Question is concerned are compelled to take goods at higher prices, or else lead to the loss by us of markets on which we must rely to balance our external trade?

The Colonial Office realises all the implications.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on the research operations in process at the School of Tropical Agriculture in Trinidad, and if satisfactory relations have been established for extended information of results being communicated to other parts of the Colonial Empire.

The main research projects at the Imperial College are concerned with banana breeding, cocoa, soils and sugar technology. The results of research at the College are published in its journal, which circulates throughout the Colonial Empire.

Are the results of the research carried out in the College of Tropical Agriculture circulated to other tropical parts of the Colonial Empire?

Yes. The college issues a journal called "Tropical Agriculture," the latest issue of which was published on 31st December, 1948, and its work is very widely known to research workers throughout the Empire.

I thank the hon. Gentleman very much.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many Chinese in Singapore occupy posts in the Colonial Administrative Service equivalent to grades 1b and 1a in the Malayan Civil Service; and how many Chinese in Singapore occupy posts of any higher status.

At the present time there are no Chinese occupying such posts.

Will my hon. Friend take into account the widespread dissatisfaction among Chinese in Singapore that none of them can get into any worth while post in the Civil Service? Is it not time that a public service commission was established so that they can do so?

I do not accept that view about feeling in Singapore, but the creation of a public service commission to facilitate the recruitment of local people has been agreed upon.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many Malays are serving as staff officers or have been appointed to staff appointments or are in grades 1b or 1a of the Malayan Civil Service.

In January, 1949, there were two Malays in Class 1b of the Malayan Civil Service and one in Class 1a. There were no Malays of staff rank in the Administrative Service.

Will my hon. Friend explain how we propose to implement our pledge to give self-government to Malaya and the Colony of Singapore if we do not allow the inhabitants of the country to take over some of the chief posts in the Civil Service?

My hon. Friend does not realise, or rather I am sure that he does realise but has not given full weight to, the fact that Malaya has a federal constitution and that practically all the posts in the State service are already staffed by Malays. It is our intention to bring the people of the country ever more into these posts of an important nature.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many officials are employed in the Malayan Department of the Colonial Office; and how many of these officials have ever visited Malaya.

Excluding junior staff, there are six officers in the Eastern Division who deal with Malayan affairs. Two of them have visited Malaya. In addition 14 members of the senior staff of other sections of the office, which are also concerned with aspects of Malayan affairs, have visited the territory.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies to what extent have the Malayan Chinese and Malays co-operated with the authorities in Malaya in resisting extortion, blackmail, sabotage and murder by Communists.

The Malays have from the beginning given the Government their wholehearted and courageous co-operation. As a result of singling out the Chinese for ruthless intimidation and threats of murder, the bandits are still securing from some of them funds and other assistance. There are, however, indications that Chinese resistance to bandit pressure is growing and that active co-operation with the authorities is improving.

Is it not a fact that the Chinese and Malays have formed associations to unite in combating this terrorism?

Yes. I am glad to say that a Malay and Chinese association has been formed to foster mutual co-operation between the communities.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how the £20 million granted to Malaya for war damage is to be allocated to the various claimants; will equal rights be given to Malayan claimants as to British; and to private claims as to business claims.

The free grant of £20 million, being a contribution towards a scheme of greater magnitude, will not itself be allocated. His Majesty's Government's offer does not envisage any racial distinction and makes special provision for private claims.

Will the Under-Secretary inform the House, or place the information in the Library, on how this money is to be allocated, in order that this House can ascertain whether the local people are getting their fair share?

A memorandum of proposals has been submitted to the Malayan Government. I will look into the hon. Member's suggestion.

Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that in that scheme there is a priority allocation for small native claimants, who will get an immediate prior payment.

There is a suggested allocation for private chattels.

Does the increase in the size of this grant mean that there is to be any speed up in the machinery for settling these claims, which have been outstanding for so long?

I assume that that will be a natural consequence.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what representations he has received from chambers of commerce or other commercial bodies in Malaya or Singapore concerning the recent agreement for direct trade between this country and Indonesia.

None, Sir, but I understand that the chambers of commerce have made certain representations to the Governor of Singapore.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the negotiation by the Board of Trade of a bilateral agreement which harms the trade of Singapore to a great extent, without prior consultation with the local interests, is a very bad practice, and upsets the whole of the local administration.

I really cannot accept that suggestion because my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade told the hon. Member on 3rd May exactly what the purport of these conversations was and that it was not such as would in any way interfere with the entrepôt trade of Singapore.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that whatever the purport may have been the result of not taking local people into consultation has been very bad and inimical to the local interests of all races.

I have not had any evidence of that.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what were the total sterling balances in each British Colony at the end of the war; and what the totals are now.

As the reply to the Question is rather long, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he contemplates the continued publication of reports on the economic and social progress of the constituent communities of the Colonial Empire; what such reports are in process of preparation; and if he will indicate probable dates of issue.

Yes, Sir. Forty-two Colonial annual reports in the 1948 series are in preparation. It is expected that the first will be published by His Majesty's Stationery Office in June and the remainder will follow between then and the end of the year.

I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman. Is he aware of the great value of these reports in times gone by to those of us who are interested in the Colonial Empire? Also will he circulate to all Members the valuable memorandum prepared by Sir William McLean at the Colonial Office?

Can the Under-Secretary say when we may expect publication of the annual report by the Colonial Office, as it is important to have it before we debate the Colonial Estimates?

The annual report is with the printers at the moment. I am hoping that it will not be more than two weeks before the report is in the hands of hon. Members. There is also another report in which I am sure the House will be interested, the regional report which my right hon. Friend promised last year. That will be on our Far Eastern Dependencies.

In view of the recent great progress in the Colonies, would my hon. Friend consider extending the scope of these reports in future so as to give a better and more detailed picture of the progress which has recently been made?

I think that the three types of report to which reference has been made during this Question and answer will give hon. Members all the information they desire.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether facilities are provided for advising parents and guardians of native Colonial children in respect of their sending children here for education in boarding schools; whether his Department endeavours to keep a record of such children; and whether he will compile a list of schools who do not exercise colour discrimination.

Parents who wish to send their children privately to the United Kingdom for secondary education can consult the educational authorities in the Colonies and I do not consider that any special records or arrangements are necessary.

In view of the fact that there have geen instances of African children being refused entrance to colleges and schools in this country, one instance of which I believe the hon. Gentleman is aware, will he take some steps to prevent this most unfortunate experience coming to any children from our Colonies?

I regret very much the incident to which my hon. Friend refers, but I regard this as a question of the broader spreading of education in this country.

Would it not be possible to indicate to these schools, especially to private schools, that they have no moral if indeed they have a legal right to refuse admission to a girl merely because she is coloured?

I regret it, but I have no authority over the proprietors of private schools in regard to whom they shall admit.

asked the Minister of Defence what is now the cost per head of the population of expenditure on the Defence Services and of armaments.

The present annual cost of defence per head of population in the United Kingdom is about £15.

Is the Minister aware of the statement, reported in "The Times," of to-day, made by the Prime Minister of New Zealand that £15 per head of the population is now spent on the defence of this country, compared with £7 in New Zealand, and does he realise that this amounts to a burden of 30s. a week on a working-class family?

It is a very heavy burden to bear for defence, but there would be other burdens placed upon the nation subsequently if we did not bear our proper share.

asked the Minister of Defence whether, in the case of retired officers of the Armed Forces, who on account of age or other reasons are not eligible for the new contributory pension scheme, a pension will be granted to a widow on his death irrespective of her age.

I cannot anticipate what the conditions governing the new contributory scheme will be, but the widows of any officers who may be ineligible for it will, of course, remain eligible for consideration under existing regulations. Those regulations debar a widow who is more than 25 years younger than her husband: otherwise her eligibility is not affected by her age.

Is not it a fact that these widows are suffering, or will suffer, from a means test; and would it not be possible to make arrangements whereby they received a pension which was not subject to a means test?

I think it would be best if we could first come to a decision upon the reconstruction of the general system on a contributory basis, and then pay attention to any points which hon. Members might wish to raise with regard to the existing situation.

Will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider the 25 years' rule, as it is perfectly arbitrary and causes great hardship and anxiety? The implication behind it is that these widows married these officers with the object of getting a pension, which is a most unworthy implication, and in 99 cases out of a 100 completely unjustified.

There are aspects about it which certainly cannot be popular, and many consider them not to be very fair; but this is of very long standing.