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Commons Chamber

Volume 467: debated on Thursday 28 July 1949

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House Of Commons

Thursday, 28th July, 1949

The House met at Half-past Two o'Clock

Prayers

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

Private Business

Ashdown Forest Bill

Bolton Corporation Bill

Lords Amendments considered, pursuant to Order [ 22nd July], and agreed to.

Oral Answers To Questions

National Health Service

Hearing Aids

1.

asked the Minister of Health when aids to hearing will be supplied to the many persons in Swindon in great need of them.

My right hon. Friend regrets that he cannot say when the supply will have caught up with the very large accumulated demand, but the supply has just been doubled.

7.

asked the Minister of Health what percentage of Medresco hearing aids have been found to be faulty.

About 3 per cent. of the aids delivered to distribution centres are now returned as faulty. Of the aids issued to patients in the first year about 24 per cent. have come in for servicing or repair in England and Wales, but it is difficult to know how much of this represents original faults in the instruments.

Has the hon. Gentleman any idea how long it takes to repair these hearing aids, because there is a great deal of complaint about this matter?

Very often the repairs are minor servicing repairs. We regard the proportion of sets which come back for minor repairs and servicing as extremely small.

8.

asked the Minister of Health what is now the average time taken to obtain a Medresco hearing aid after a certificate has been given.

The waiting period varies between the different distribution centres and in any case depends on priority of need. The average would, therefore, be meaningless even if it could be obtained.

Pasteurised Milk (Hospitals)

3.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that hospital boards are being instructed to supply pasteurised milk in hospitals, even although it comes from a tuberculin-tested herd; and why it is necessary that tuberculin-tested milk should be pasteurised.

I know of no such instructions, and I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave him on 14th July.

While the word "instructions" may be an over-emphasis, does the Minister deny that strong recommendations have been made by regional hospital boards to local management committees to go in for pasteurised milk as against T.T. milk? Is this part of a scheme to get cheaper milk and contribute to the reduction of £9½ million in the cost of hospital management?

I refute that suggestion entirely. This is solely a matter for the hospital management committees themselves to decide.

Opticians

5.

asked the Minister of Health what is the number of ophthalmic opticians in England and Wales now employed in providing optical treatment within the National Health Service.

Does my hon. Friend consider this number sufficient to meet the needs of the National Health Service, and is he satisfied that ophthalmic opticians as a whole have shown that high standard of professional service which the Minister expected?

We are hoping for an increase in the numbers which will become available for the service, and we feel that in general the professional standard of ophthalmic opticians is high.

Can my hon. Friend tell-us what percentage of the number of available opticians are out of the scheme at present?

X-Ray Examinations, Bristol

9.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that whereas it was formerly the practice that general practitioners in Bristol could send patients to the Central Health Clinic for X-ray examination of the chest, patients can now be sent there only if referred by a special chest physician or surgeon; why this change has been made; and whether it is temporary or permanent.

Panel Patients, Bristol

10.

asked the Minister of Health what is the average number of patients on the panel of doctors at Bristol; and what is the highest and the lowest number.

At 1st April last the average number was 2,300, the highest something over 4,000, the lowest two.

Merchant Navy Personnel

11.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that officers and men of the Merchant Navy pay Income Tax and National Insurance contributions but are unable to receive any health treatment when they are at sea or abroad in port; and, in view of the fact that the stay in a foreign port is a suitable moment for certain treatment, what action does he propose to take to remedy this state of affairs.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. H. Fraser) on 7th April.

Does the hon. Gentleman consider it fair that these men should pay the same contribution as the rest of the public, and yet be prevented from receiving the same benefit by reason of the type of their employment? Will he look into the matter again?

We have been looking into the question of dental services, as it was suggested that they were not adequate. Although there is no general complaint we are willing to look into individual cases.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the difficulty that seafarers are in if they have to get treatment abroad? In such a case the cost is deducted from their pay, and should not something be done to meet that cost?

Have we any reciprocal arrangement with foreign Governments whereby they give medical service to our nationals such as they are able to receive over here?

If the hon. Member will look at the earlier Question to which I have referred he will see that negotiations are proceeding.

Will the hon. Gentleman go into the whole question again, because seafaring people spend from 70 to 80 per cent. of their time abroad and are prevented from receiving full benefits although they pay the same contributions as anybody else?

Mental Patients, East Anglia (Accommodation)

15.

asked the Minister of Health what proposals have been approved by him in the last 12 months for providing further accommodation in the area of the East Anglian Regional Hospital Board for juvenile and adult mental defectives.

None, Sir. But my right hon. Friend now has under urgent review a scheme for 100 beds at Little Plumstead Hall, and 25 more have just become available at St. Neots.

In view of the fact that the Minister has promised to make these arrangements quickly would he remove the three mentally defective children from St. Margaret's Hospital, Epping, about which I wrote to him?

Hospital Staffs (Trade Union Badges)

13.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that members of staffs in some hospitals are prevented from wearing their trade union badges whilst on duty; and what steps he will take to secure that permission is always given.

My right hon. Friend has no evidence that this is true, but if so, it is unwarranted interference with the individual.

Dentists

16.

asked the Minister of Health the number of dentists who are qualified and the number registered under the Dentists Acts, 1921 to 1923; how many National Health Service dentists are qualified; and how many registered under the said Acts.

The number of dentists on the Dental Register in the United Kingdom who are graduates or licentiates in dental surgery is 10,255, and the number registered under the Dentists Acts, 1921 to 1923, is 4,361. I regret that the information requested in the second and third parts of the Question is not available.

If the Minister is unable to give the information asked for in the last part of the Question, is it surprising that the National Health Service is getting into difficulties? Cannot the Parliamentary Secretary say what proportion of each of these categories has joined the National Health Service?

I can let the hon. Baronet know that out of approximately 10,000 dentists actively engaged in general practice some 9,400 are within the National Health Service.

Cannot the hon. Gentleman say what proportion of these are registered under the Dentists Acts?

Private Patients {Drugs)

17.

asked the Minister of Health what he estimates would be the increased cost of allowing private patients to obtain drugs recommended by their doctor free of charge.

If the estimated annual rate of expenditure on the pharmaceutical services were proportionately increased in respect of the 5 per cent. of the population of England and Wales not on doctors' lists, the increase would amount to about £1 million.

Does not the official figure show a wild miscalculation on the part of those responsible for framing the new Tory programme? Will my right hon. Friend resist this incitement to reckless expenditure by His Majesty's Opposition?

Aged And Chronic Sick, Birmingham

19.

asked the Minister of Health if the Regional Hospital Board have completed their investigation of the problem of the aged and chronic sick in the City of Birmingham; and what steps are being taken to improve existing facilities for those aged persons in need of hospital treatment.

The regional board has not yet completed its investigation; meanwhile efforts are being made to increase nursing staff and to bring into use additional beds.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the waiting lists in these hospitals are such that admission cannot be obtained under about three months, in spite of the fact that more aged chronic mental patients have been admitted to hospitals in the past year than in previous years? In view of the urgency of this grave problem, will my hon. Friend press for an investigation so as to get a solution?

Most urgent steps are being taken. We fully appreciate the urgency of the matter.

Would my hon. Friend bear in mind that Birmingham is not alone in this respect? Will he see that other areas. including cities like Manchester, are given equal consideration?

Is it not a fact that this is the result not of the present National Health Service, but of neglect in the past to build hospitals?

Spectacles, Dentures And Wigs

21.

asked the Minister of Health how many pairs of glasses and how many sets of false teeth and how many wigs have been provided in the last 12 months; and how many demands are still outstanding.

At a very rough estimate, about 4½ million pairs of spectacles have been supplied under the supplementary eye service and between three and four million pairs are on order. No information is available as to the number of dentures. Up to 20th May, 8,000 wigs were ordered and 2,600 supplied through the Ministry of Pensions, on the advice of specialists.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in a recent communication which I have had from his Department it is stated that well over 5 million pairs of spectacles have been provided in the last 12 months? Are the figures that he has given quite accurate? Is he trying to keep the number down? Will the hon. Gentleman say whether those figures are in accordance with the estimates that were expected? Obviously they are becoming far more. Will he say what likelihood there is of people obtaining these wigs, spectacles and dentures?

There is a very good chance, a far better chance than they had before, when they had very little opportunity of getting any of this service from hon. Gentlemen opposite.

Huts, West Penwith

12.

asked the Minister of Health the present position regarding the allegations of irregularity in connection with the requisitioning of certain hut dwellings on Hayle Towans by the West Penwith Rural District Council, about which the hon. and gallant Member for Camborne wrote to the Parliamentary Secretary on 28th June. 1949.

I am informed that the council has decided to release the properties if the owners implement undertakings they have given regarding occupation of the premises.

While appreciating that it would have been a continuing injustice to deprive these persons longer of their properties because it was a contravention of the powers of delegation, when a case of the sort occurs about which I wrote to the Minister a month ago cannot quicker action be taken so as to have justice done, particularly when such arbitrary powers are exercised?

I would not accept that suggestion. I think action has been taken reasonably speedily in view of the very complicated nature of the case.

Foreign Workers (Medical Examination)

26.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the low medical grade of many of the foreign workers admitted into this country and the resulting high rate of sickness among these workers; and whether, in view of the present difficulties in staffing and finding accommodation in our hospitals and sanatoria, he will seek authority to have all foreign labour adequately medically examined in the country of origin before allowing their entry into this country.

Foreign workers recruited under official schemes for which I am responsible are already required to undergo a general medical examination, and an X-Ray examination to detect tuberculosis, before they are accepted and brought to this country. In proportion to the numbers recruited, the cases of serious sickness have not been numerous, but as these workers are mostly displaced persons the privations which they have undergone may have resulted in some cases in breakdown in health after their arrival.

Has my right hon. Friend consulted the regional hospital boards about the large percentage of foreign workers who come into the country and have recourse either to a hospital or a sanatorium? What is the standard of examination of people before they are admitted to the country?

As to the first part of that question I have not made such inquiries, because no evidence of any sort has come to me to show that there has been an exceptional number of people admitted to hospitals. If my hon. Friend has information of that sort I would like to look at it. As to the examination, I could not do justice to the matter in a short answer. I will send him a copy of the medical form which is used in this connection.

Is it not a fact that the very great majority of the foreign workers have proved both healthy and willing?

It is only fair to them to say that I have had very little evidence of their breakdown in health. They perform very useful service, especially when one remembers that they are living in hostel accommodation.

What happens to any of them who fail the medical examination when they get here? Are they sent back to the country of origin or kept in a hospital and cured here?

I do not know about the examination on arrival. There is certainly a check-over when they get here. I will look into the question with a view to finding out, and I will let the hon. and gallant Gentleman know.

Education

School Milk, Devonshire

27.

asked the Minister of Education how many schools in Devonshire are supplied with fresh milk and how many with dried milk.

The latest figures available show that 820 schools in Devon receive liquid milk and 21 National dried milk.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any schools receive no milk at all?

Medical Inspections

29.

asked the Minister of Education for what reason his regulations contained in S.R. & O., 1945, No. 1076, paragraph 49, provide for only three routine medical inspections during a child's school life; and whether a further routine inspection at the age of seven plus will be provided for as soon as sufficient medical staff is available.

When this regulation was made many medical officers were on Active Service. It provided for additional inspections at the Minister's direction or with his approval. The whole of the regulations mentioned are now under review, but we still have to be careful not to use too much manpower on routine inspections.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a good deal of concern in my division among teachers and head teachers who say that with the present size of classes it is not always possible for them to spot serious ailments, to sight and hearing for example, and can he hold out hope that when more medical staff is available, he will make provision for more regular inspections?

Yes, Sir. It has always been the intention to get back to the routine inspections which were made prior to the reduction of the numbers owing to active service demands.

Have teachers been made aware of their privilege of bringing before the doctor any cases they notice? Is that being pressed on them in view of the shortage?

Yes, Sir. They have been so informed, and we receive recommendations of that kind.

Technical Colleges, Middlesex (Typewriters)

30.

asked the Minister of Education whether he is aware of the proposal of the Middlesex Education Committee to purchase 100 Olympia typewriters for use in its technical colleges; and if he will make inquiries as to the suitability of such machines in view of the difficulty in ensuring a supply of spare parts for repairs and renewals.

I understand that the local education authority does not now intend to proceed with the purchase, and the second part of the Question does not, therefore, arise.

Can my right hon. Friend inform the House whether any other education authority is negotiating for the purchase of Soviet zone typewriters?

Not that I am aware of, but there are a lot of negotiations about which I know nothing.

Technologists (Training)

32.

asked the Minister of Education to what extent he estimates that the present arrangements for the training of technologists in this country are sufficient to meet the increasing demands which arise from the programme of Colonial Development and which will arise if Great Britain is to co-operate adequately with the United States of America in the implementation of President Truman's Fourth Point; and what collaboration there is to be with the United States of America in the training of their technologists here or the training of British technologists in the United States of America.

As my hon. Friend is aware, steps have been taken and are contemplated for improving and extending facilities for technological training in this country. At present the plans for technical assistance towards the economic advancement of under-developed countries are still under consideration by the United Nations organisation and the specialised agencies. It is, therefore, impossible to gauge what the increased demands will be. In general, however, I have no reason to doubt that the arrangements in this country are capable of meeting reasonable demands. As regards the other part of the Question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which will be given him today by my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the great importance of the American offer of co-operation in colonial development and the relative inadequacy at present of trained technologists for this purpose?

British Civil Servants, Delhi

35.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what are the separate numbers and total salaries of British civil servants at present in Delhi working for British Government Departments; and what functions they carry out.

The information is not immediately available and it will be necessary to refer to a number of other Government Departments. I will let the hon. Member have the information as soon as possible.

Trade And Commerce

Messrs A Reyrolle & Co, Ltd (Report)

39.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he intends to publish the report of his Department's inspector who is inquiring into certain matters connected with Messrs. A. Reyrolle & Co., Ltd.

As I informed the hon. Member for St. Marylebone (Sir W. Wakefield) on 21st June, certain representations on the matter had been received. These were referred to the inspector for a further report and I propose in due course to arrange for the inspector's reports to be published.

Can the Minister say if the report will be published in full or whether only extracts will be published?

I should like notice of that question, but I think the intention is to publish it in full.

Trade Agreements, Eastern Europe

40.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what is the present position with regard to the negotiations for trade agreements with Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia.

Negotiations are in progress with these three countries but I am not in a position to make any statement at this stage.

Is there any likelihood of a decision being reached between now and the date when the House meets again?

I think it would be very unwise to attempt to speculate in that way when negotiations are still proceeding.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether the granting of tourists' allowances of currency to visit Yugoslavia is one of the things which might result from the successful conclusion of a trade agreement with that country?

I do not think that is one of the issues on which agreement has not yet been reached.

Paper And Board (Returns)

42.

asked the President of the Board of Trade why inquiries about stocks of paper and board are sent so frequently to manufacturers of boxes and cartons; and whether he will give instructions to reduce the number of inquiries.

Certain returns are necessary in order to enable the Paper Control to assess the present rate of consumption of paper and board and the effect of the simplifications in paper licensing which came into force on 6th March and 3rd July of this year. Some of the returns are of a temporary character and I am doing all I can to reduce these to a minimum.

As the Paper Control has a complete record of imports and exports and of the allocation of paper to manufacturers, is it necessary that the returns should be asked for at monthly intervals since it is known what the general position is?

It is extremely important as soon as a control of this kind has been taken off to follow the position very carefully for a month or two to see if there is any big increase in consumption.

Copyright Law

43.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the fact that the United Kingdom delegation only accepted the provisions of Article II of the Brussels Copyright Convention, 1948, on the understanding that His Majesty's Government remained free to enact such legislation as they might consider necessary in the public interest to prevent or deal with any abuse of the monopoly rights conferred upon the owners of copyrights by the law of the United Kingdom, he can state in what way this conditional acceptance is to be implemented; and, in particular, what steps are to be taken to ascertain whether any such abuse exists or is possible under present arrangements and, if so what kind of legislation is necessary to deal with it.

The object of the declaration referred to was to reserve the right of His Majesty's Government, notwithstanding the provisions of Article II, to take action to deal with any abuse of copyright monopoly rights, but it did not imply that any such legislation was actually called for in this country. Before the United Kingdom ratification of the Brussels Convention can be deposited, however, some amendments of existing copyright law will be necessary, and in this connection, I am considering whether it would be advisable to make a general inquiry into its working. The question whether there is any abuse in the exercise of the exclusive rights of public performance of musical works in this country such as would justify legislation, is, of course, one of the matters which could be dealt with in such inquiry.

Factories, New Towns

67.

asked the President of the Board of Trade how many firms have, through his suggestion, agreed to establish factories in the new towns.

If, as I assume, my hon. Friend is referring to the London new towns, my Department have approved the proposals of eight firms to establish new factories in these towns.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that in the direction of new factories, the correct balance is being held between the new towns and the development areas?

Yes, Sir, and I am in close touch with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Town and Country Planning on this matter.

Cancer Research

45.

asked the Lord President of the Council whether, in view of the serious increase in deaths from cancer during the last 30 years, he will make a statement as to the research which is now being conducted under the auspices of his department, or with his encouragement; and, in particular, what joint research or co-operation with America is taking place.

Research on cancer forms a very important part of the programme of the Medical Research Council; it is also promoted, with official encouragement, by bodies such as the Imperial Cancer Research Fund and the British Empire Cancer Campaign. I understand that there is particularly close co-operation in this field between British workers and their colleagues in America.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many research workers are engaged and how much money is being spent on this purpose?

I could not state the number of research workers without notice, but I can say that the Medical Research Council's expenditure on cancer research was only about £6,000 up to and including 1945–46, it rose to £12,000 in 1946–47 and to £24,000 in 1947–48, and it is estimated at £145,000 for 1948–49 and at perhaps £200,000 in 1949–50. Other expenditures are being made. I assure the House that it need not worry that financial limitations would be imposed on an important matter of this kind. It is a question of getting to the roots of the problem.

In view of the rather disturbing figures, which have now risen to some 80,000 deaths per year from cancer, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there will be widespread support for the fullest extension of research that he can encourage, especially as the figures which he has quoted seem rather modest in face of the terrible nature of the problem?

I appreciate that, but real progress is being made in research and the House may rest assured that the limiting factor is not finance. It is knowledge. We are all impressed with the great need to do everything we can about it.

Will not my right hon. Friend agree that up to a point, it is a question of finance, because the Medical Research Council can only go into these matters and make investigations scientifically and otherwise according to the amount of money which they feel they have at their disposal? Will he considerably increase the grant from the Government to the Council so that they can proceed more actively with this work?

I am sorry but I could not disagree more with my hon. Friend. The mere voting of money does not do anything. The thing is to find a good case for the spending of money. That is what I am after.

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm or deny an allegation which is made that, despite these extensive inquiries and all the skill and devotion of those engaged in them, no real progress has been made in relation to the discovery of the causation of cancer?

No, Sir. I would not say that no real progress has been made. Progress towards the big fundamental solution is disappointing, but real progress is being made into various phases of cancer research.

Agriculture

Feedingstuffs

46.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will consider increasing the ration of feedingstuffs allowed to farmers who rear calves but do not sell milk.

I am afraid I cannot see my way to alter the present conditions for the granting of rations for calves under six months old but the rations for calves between six and twelve months old which I announced yesterday will be available for all calves irrespective of whether the owner is selling milk.

55.

asked the Minister of Agriculture if he will enlarge the scope of the extended feedingstuffs rationing scheme to include occupiers of half an acre of agricultural land.

No, Sir. There is no room on holdings of this size for the growing of the proportion of feedingstuffs which the occupier has to provide for his stock under the scheme.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that holders of precisely one acre are debarred from the scheme, and could he not give his feedingstuffs officers some discretion in this matter, because it is quite certain that some of these smallholders can grow sufficient feedingstuffs for a small quantity of poultry?

It so happens that my officers have absolute discretion. Where an occupier can show that he can produce approximately 50 per cent. of the feedingstuffs he requires, he is able to get his ration.

But is my right hon. Friend aware that his instructions are not always understood, because some of his feedingstuffs officers make it a reason for refusal if the holding is only one acre?

All my instructions are written in such elementary language that they ought to be understood.

56.

asked the Minister of Agriculture what proportion of this year's wheat crop farmers will be allowed to retain for feeding to poultry and other livestock; and if he will review after harvest the need for retaining any restrictions on the use of home-grown grain required for the expansion of livestock production.

Farmers will be permitted to retain up to one-quarter of this year's wheat crop for feeding to stock, including both millable and non-millable wheat and tailings. Wheat is the only grain crop which the farmer is now required to sell, and in view of the urgent need to save dollars I can hold out no hope of further concessions in respect of this year's crop.

In view of the fact that the Minister is asking us now to grow 2¾ million acres of wheat, which will be a heavy call on our land, is he aware that he would be more likely to reach that target if he would allow farmers to retain some of the crop for the expansion of livestock.

The question of the hon. Gentleman relates to this year's crop where we are hopelessly behind the target.

Can the Minister say whether he has considered the question of allowing farmers a free market in the proportion of the grain which the farmers are allowed to keep for themselves?

Because there is a rationing scheme in existence and there are many farmers, particularly in the Division of the hon. Gentleman, who can grow practically nothing for themselves in the form of feedingstuffs and so have to be dealt with out of the general rationing pool scheme.

River Irwell (Flooding)

48.

asked the Minister of Agriculture what steps are being taken to prevent the flooding of the River Irwell at Peel Bridge, Ramsbottom.

I understand that the Rivers Mersey and Irwell Catchment Board are steadily moving upstream with their river clearance scheme for the River Irwell and are now within two miles of Peel Bridge, Ramsbottom. That point will be reached as soon as possible but it is essential that the normal practice of working upstream should be followed.

Hop-Picking (Labour)

49.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that, owing to the action of some education authorities in prosecuting parents whose children are absent from school whilst with their parents in the hop fields, hop growers are experiencing great difficulty in recruiting the necessary labour; and what steps he proposes to take to overcome the difficulty.

I am aware that in Herefordshire and Worcestershire hop-growers are concerned about the effect which the threat of prosecution will have on the hop-pickers coming from industrial areas. The normal school holidays in a few of the areas concerned will cover the whole of the hop-picking season; and although in other areas they will cover only the first part of the season, parents may also obtain permission for their children to stay away from school for an extra fortnight to accompany them on holiday. It will therefore be possible for the usual arrangements to operate for the greater part of the season; but there will still remain about 10 days at the end of September when parents who kept their children away from school to go hop-picking would be open to prosecution. My Department is considering, with the hop-growers and the other Departments concerned, what steps can be taken to fill this potential gap in the labour supply.

Sacks (Supplies)

50.

asked the Minister of Agriculture what provision has been made for an adequate supply of sacks to meet the needs of farmers using combine harvesters who have to market their grain immediately; and what advice he can give to farmers in the Southern counties who are unable to obtain all the sacks they require.

My Department offered two-bushel hessian sacks to all known owners of combine harvesters to augment the supply of the larger sack obtained on hire from the railways and the usual sack hire firms. All farmers who ordered hessian sacks from the Minister have been supplied, but owing to the unusually early harvest there is an abnormal last minute demand. I have, therefore, made arrangements for a further supply of hessian sacks and farmers who wish to buy them should communicate either with my Department or their county agricultural executive committee.

I am sure that farmers in the Southern counties will welcome that action of the Minister, but could he help them further by getting the Minister of Food to co-operate in so far as he may have spare sacks available which can be put to use with these combine harvesters?

I suppose that if my Department have not sufficient sacks, and the Ministry of Food have some, they will be readily available.

Allotments, Lambeth (Tenure)

51.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will arrange for allotment holders in Brock-well Park, Lambeth, to continue the cultivation of their allotments.

Early this year the London County Council proposed that a large proportion of the temporary allotment sites in their parks should be released after the present season and, notwithstanding our food difficulties, I felt that their claims for the early restoration of the land for sports and general recreational purposes could no longer be rigidly denied. I was, however, able to arrange that only half the total acreage under allotments should be released at the end of the year, the first to go being in the more congested areas and that the remainder should continue in cultivation for the present. The selection of the land for early release has been left to the Council and, in the circumstances, I should not feel justified in intervening in the case of Brockwell Park.

Does my right hon. Friend satisfy himself in all such cases that the recreational facilities are being so seriously prejudiced as to outweigh the need for growing more food?

I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that I am constantly fighting a rearguard action, my partiality being always in favour of food production.

Royal Shows (Ministry's Exhibit)

52.

asked the Minister of Agriculture how many personnel of the National Agricultural Advisory Service were employed at his Department's exhibit at the 1948 and 1949 Royal Shows, respectively; and what was the total cost of the exhibit in each year.

Approximately 50 N.A.A.S. officers were in attendance each day at the Royal Show this year and a somewhat larger number in 1948, as demonstrators on the many different features of the N.A.A.S. section of the Ministry's exhibit. The cost of the Ministry's exhibit was approximately £7,500 in 1948 and is estimated at roughly the same figure for 1949.

Marginal Production Scheme

54.

asked the Minister of Agriculture to what extent in the administration of the marginal production scheme account is taken of the financial means and status of the farmers who propose to undertake land reclaimation.

When considering applications for grants under this scheme, county agricultural executive committees have to decide whether the carrying out of the proposed operations without assistance would prejudice the ordinary work of the farm, or in other words, whether the proposed improvement would be unduly costly in relation to a farmer's existing income and capital. This does not imply elaborate means tests. Committees usually have sufficient information of a farmer's financial resources.

Will the Minister give us an assurance that where a farmer is prepared to undertake work that would not give an economic return, his own means outside farming will not prevent him from getting assistance from the Ministry?

I had better not go outside the reply I have given. It is a delicate operation but I can assure the hon. Member that county executive committees are administering this scheme as sympathetically as they can.

Did the first answer of my right hon. Friend mean that if it were found that expenditure on marginal land would interfere with the ordinary work of the farmer, such a man would get extra financial assistance? Does it mean that?

Is the Minister aware that in certain areas schemes which were qualifying for the marginal production scheme last year are being turned down this year although the farmers are not wealthy men; and is he also aware that there is a great deal of resentment amongst bona fide farmers at this type of means test?

If the hon. Gentleman will be good enough to supply me with individual cases, I shall be happy to have them looked at.

National Finance

Income Tax (Remissions)

57.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer under what provisions of the Income Tax Acts are individual hardship cases dealt with by him.

It has long been recognised that a power of remitting tax in cases where the full claim cannot be obtained or cannot reasonably be enforced is inherent in the general powers for the management of the revenue which are vested by Section 57 of the Income Tax Act, 1918, and Section 1 of the Inland Revenue Regulation Act, 1890, in the Commissioners of Inland Revenue. In individual cases the Commissioners normally exercise their own discretion, but the approval of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is obtained for any remission of general application. All remissions of tax are reported to the Comptroller and Auditor-General for the information of the Public Accounts Committee.

Why, then, has the right hon. Gentleman just sent me a letter about a constituent aged 83 who has been charged for tax incurred six years ago which was not claimed at the time by the mistake of the Inland Revenue authorities? Why has he told me there is no power in him to remit this claim?

Without knowing off-hand the details of the case which the right hon. Gentleman quotes, the answer is that it is generally the law that there is no power to remit. However, as the House is well aware, during our Debates recently on the Finance Bill, my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, under pressure from all sides of the House, indicated that certain sections for certain reasons would receive discretionary treatment.

In view of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, may I now resubmit this case to him, and ask him to exercise his discretion upon it?

Would the right hon. Gentleman clearly specify whether the power of remission of tax lies with the Crown or with the Chancellor of the Exchequer?

I think I have made it quite clear in the rather long answer I have given. It resides, through the Acts I have mentioned, in the Inland Revenue under the control and supervision of the Chancellor of the day. If I may add this, the late Mr. Neville Chamberlain made this quite clear in 1937 in reply to similar questions.

Sterling Debts

58.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much sterling as at 30th June, 1949, did we owe to each of our creditor countries.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on 21st September last to the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for New Forest and Christchurch (Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre).

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that answer was a most unsatisfactory one, and if he cannot give figures for individual countries, will he give the figures for the main area?

We already give the figures for the totals in the Balance of Payments White Paper every six months.

Are the Government considering proposals which have been made in some quarters that, with safeguards to ourselves in the administration of the dollars arising, these credits might be negotiated with the United States?

Mining Companies, Gold Coast

59.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recommendations he has recently received for those connected with the Gold Coast concerning assistance to be given to the mining companies; and when he will be able to give an answer to these recommendations.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer was recently asked by the London Advisory Committee of the Gold Coast Chamber of Mines to receive a deputation. Before agreeing to do so, however, he asked the Chairman to submit a statement in writing, and this is still awaited.

Icelandic Trawlers (Loans)

60.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why permission was given to the Icelandic Government to raise the recent loans to build ten trawlers, in view of the fact that the British fleet with the projected building will be sufficient or more than sufficient to supply all the fish we need.

I assume the hon. Member is referring to the £1¼ million 4½ per cent. Iceland Sterling Stock, 1960–69, for which applications were invited on 21st July last. Authority was given for the issue of this stock in order to assist Iceland, as an allied country in the sterling area, to modernise its fishing fleet.

Can the Economic Secretary say what Government Departments were consulted before this authority was given, and will he tell the House whether the British Trawler Federation, vitally affected by it, were consulted over its issue?

The Government consult all the appropriate Government Departments in all these cases, but I should have thought that the modernisation of the fishing fleet of a country which is a member both of the sterling area and of O.E.E.C. was a very desirable object.

Would not the hon. Gentleman also think that the preservation of the livelihood of our own people was equally important, and will he answer my question: which Government Departments were consulted specifically—was the Minister of Agriculture consulted; and secondly, were the British Trawler Federation consulted?

If the Iceland fishing fleet becomes more efficient it should be able to sell its produce here at lower prices and, therefore, the livelihood of our own people will be assisted.

Scientists (University Training)

63.

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to what extent he estimates that the present arrangements for an increased supply of scientists from the universities is sufficient to meet the increasing demands which arise from the programme of Colonial development and which will arise if Great Britain is to co-operate adequately with the United States of America in the implementation of President Truman's Fourth Point; and what collaboration there is to be with the United States of America in the training of their scientists in our universities or the training of British scientists in the United States universities.

The Report of the Committee on Scientific Manpower recommended that the annual pre-war output of scientists from the universities should be doubled by 1955. That Committee, in framing their estimates of the future demand for scientists, took account of the needs of the Colonial Service. The pre-war numbers of university students in science and technology were nearly doubled by 1947–48 and numbers have continued to rise since then. I am satisfied that no greater expansion would have been practicable without a sacrifice of quality. As to the second part of the Question, arrangements have just been concluded for sending 50 British scientists and technicians to the United States with the assistance of the Economic Co-operation Administration for two years of graduate study.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind with his colleague the Minister of Education the importance of President Truman's offer in the fourth point of his inaugural address to assist in colonial development throughout the world; and is my right hon. Friend satisfied that we have the necessary scientific strength to put into force any demands that may come from that quarter?

Certainly, we shall bear that in mind. As my answer indicates, we are fully alive to the need for building up the number of scientists for this kind of work.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether these 50 graduates are going to American universities or to institutes of technology such as that in Massachusetts?

In view of the very urgent need for scientists and the fact that many of the intelligent men are Communists and fellow-travellers, can we take it that no witch hunt will be directed against them?

The hon. Member can take it that we shall regard the men as scientists and not as politicians.

Can my right hon. Friend consult with the Minister of Education on the question of trying to persuade some biologists to go back into the schools to teach biology, because in past years this vicious circle has resulted in not having sufficient good scientific biologists to send to the Colonies and other places?

I think that that question should be more properly directed to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education, who I am quite sure, will take note of the point which has just been made.

Compensation Claim, Hull

64.

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that as a result of a dispute between the War Damage Commission and the War Department over the question of responsibility for compensation to Mr. Appleton, of Meadowcroft, Elloughton, for damage done to property in Fern Grove, Hull, Mr. Appleton is not receiving the 45 per cent. statutory increase on value payments, thus involving him in a loss of £900; and whether, in view of the long time this dispute has continued, he will now consult with the Secretary of State for War, with a view to settling it, so that the full rate of compensation is paid.

I have already written to the hon. Member about this case. The compensation is payable under the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939, and not under the War Damage Act, 1943. The permitted increase in value payments under the latter Act is not, therefore, payable. I understand from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War that an offer of compensation under the former Act has been made.

Would not the Financial Secretary agree that there should be equality of treatment as between one property owner and another so that, whether the damage was caused and inflicted by enemy action or by the War Department or, as in this case, by both, there should be equality of compensation?

This is not a War Damage Commission case and, therefore, it is not for me to comment. The hon. Gentleman must direct his questions on this matter to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War.

Surplus Books, Service Departments

65.

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury how many of the surplus books received from the Service Departments for disposal have been returned direct to the publishers for pulping; and what agreements are in existence whereby books not required by the Services shall be so returned.

Will my right hon. Friend look at this point again? Is he aware that during the war certain agreements were made between publishing houses and the Service Departments that the books were supplied to the Forces only on condition that they were returned to the publishers for pulping, and will he inquire whether this is the reason for the leakage of certain books which ought to be coming to His Majesty's Stationery Office?

Where books are surplus they are, in the first instance, offered to the publisher concerned. If he does not want them, a different situation, of course, arises, but we do give the publishers concerned an opportunity to re-buy the books.

66.

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he will consider giving a greater discount than 33⅓ per cent. on books from the Service Departments offered to public libraries.

The discounts vary according to the nature and condition of the books and in some cases exceed 33⅓ per cent.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the discount in the majority of cases is approximately 33⅓ per cent., and that this is the discount which an ordinary bookseller normally gets on a new book; and does not he think that the discount ought to reach 50 or 60 per cent. in the case of most of these books?

It is higher in some instances, as I have indicated, but His Majesty's Stationery Office must, of course, obtain the best price. If those concerned find that the discount allowed is not enough, I am sure they would say so immediately.

Civil Service (Pensions Payments)

61.

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he will give Civil Service pensioners the option to receive their pensions monthly or quarterly.

They already have this option, and are so informed when they retire.

Yes, Sir. I have a copy of the form here. Those who complete it are asked to say at what intervals they would like payments to be made.

Can they subsequently alter that option, or is it irrevocable?

I do not think so. On the other hand, it would be silly if they were given the opportunity of changing their minds every few weeks.

If there is hardship in cases where a person has to wait three months for money which is paid in arrear, could the option be changed?

Certainly. If an individual concerned asks first for payment to be made quarterly and then finds he prefers it monthly, we are quite willing to pay him monthly.

Civilian Employee, Metropolitan Police (Gratuity)

70.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why Mrs. White of Streatham has been refused a gratuity for her services with the Metropolitan Police, which amounted in total to 16 years including continuous service from 27th April, 1936, to 16th January, 1949, which was brought to an end by illness caused by war service and day and night shifts of up to 16 hours on end.

The superannuation conditions for civilians employed in connection with the Metropolitan Police follow the corresponding conditions for civil servants under the Superannuation Acts. The rules which apply to the granting of compassionate gratuities to unestablished staff who retire for reasons of ill-health do not allow Mrs. White's earlier periods of service to be reckoned, and her last period of service is less than the qualifying period of 15 years prescribed by law for the grant of a gratuity.

Why is the Home Secretary relying on a departmental code of rules issued 14 years ago? Did that code envisage the kind of service Mrs. White gave during the war and for which she suffered?

I have every sympathy with Mrs. White but, unfortunately, I am bound by the statutes.

Since the war broke out in 1939, the right hon. Gentleman has been endowed with boundless powers and he could give this lady a gratuity for 15 years' service but, because it was not wholly continuous service, he stands on the rule written by a civil servant 14 years ago?

Deportations (Home Secretary's Powers)

71.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has given consideration to the question of seeking, by legislation or otherwise, powers to deport to their country of origin persons seeking to disrupt the normal industrial life of Britain; and what conclusion he has now reached.

74.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will introduce legislation enabling him, in suitable cases, to refuse permission to land and to deport British subjects not domiciled in the United Kingdom.

I already have power to deport any alien against whom I deem it to be conducive to the public good to make a deportation order and I have not hesitated to exercise this power. Any extension of this power to cover the deportation of British subjects would open wide issues on which I am not prepared to pronounce at the present time.

In view of the happenings in the London docks in the last few weeks, are the Government giving consideration to this matter at all, or is this reply calculated to dispose of the matter indefinitely?

No, Sir. I stand by what I said last week; that this is an exceedingly complicated problem which I am certain would involve differential treatment. I deport the alien because I believe that his presence is not conducive to the public good and I do not have to account for it, but I cannot think that this House would give me power to apply that to Lord Beaverbrook.

While appreciating the seriousness of the principles involved, may I ask the Home Secretary if he would tell the House whether he is satisfied that even in a state of emergency the Government ought not to have power to refuse permission to land to a person who comes from another part of the Commonwealth for purely subversive purposes?

If the purposes are subversive as defined by the law, I have appropriate powers to deal with subversive activities, but those limits are very carefully prescribed in the law and this House, I suggest, must be careful not to get into a panic and take action which might very considerably alter our position inside the great Commonwealth to which we belong.

Would the right hon. Gentleman say what is the significance of his totally unnecessary reference to Lord Beaverbrook?

He is a nobleman who was born in Canada and I want to point out that I do not think the House would give me the same power to deport a person born in Canada—[An HON. MEMBER: "Why mention him?"]—because he is a very conspicuous example—that they would give me in regard to persons born outside His Majesty's Dominions.

Will the right hon. Gentleman also bear in mind that most of our colonies are in a constant state of emergency so that we are repeatedly deporting from them British subjects, colonial citizens, who come here to the only place open to them, so that, if he took up either of these fantastic proposals and adopted such powers, British citizens would be suspended in mid-ocean between the colonies and the home country?

I am not responsible for what happens in the circumstances mentioned by the hon. Member.

Is not the right answer that the trade unions should themselves take action in regard to these men?

No, Sir. This goes far wider than trade union activities and disputes. It is a very fundamental matter with which the position of this country in the Commonwealth is most vitally linked.

While holding no brief for these people, may I ask if the right hon. Gentleman exercises these powers entirely on his own initiative? Are any judicial proceedings gone through, and is there any appeal against his actions? While no doubt the House have every confidence in him, a successor may not command the same confidence.

I have the same powers as have been exercised ever since 1920. As far as I know there has been no complaint at all about the way in which those powers have been exercised by my predecessors, or by myself.

Is the right hon. Gentleman able to explain how it conies about that agitators from other countries are able to persuade sensible British workers to take industrial action?

No, Sir, I am not here to explain the mental processes of other people, but the House will get itself into serious difficulties if it tries to deal with this very wide and general issue on particular cases that may recently have excited attention.

As one who is, like several Members of the Government, of alien blood, may I ask if the right hon. Gentleman would quote to the hon. Members putting these Questions the pertinent paragraph in Magna Charta that they are anxious to tear up and destroy?

While I can understand why the right hon. Gentleman does not wish to deport Lord Beaverbrook—which I thought a very unfortunate reference—may I ask if the right hon. Gentleman has been in close consultation with the Canadian Government at Ottawa since the docks dispute on this question, as it affects both countries?

No, Sir. It is not my duty to be in touch with the Canadian Government, but my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations was so in contact.

May I have an answer about the right of freedom to enter or leave the country without hindrance?

May I point out to the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) that Magna Charta did not apply to Scotland?

On a point of Order, the Minister must not get away with that. I prefaced my question by saying that I was of alien blood.

I do not see that that alters the answer I have given. I do not think Magna Charta is involved in the issues before us.

At the end of Questions

On a point of Order. It will be within your recollection, Mr. Speaker, and that of hon. Members, that in reply to Question No. 71, the subject of which was the deportation of undesirable aliens, the Home Secretary—[Interruption.] Question No. 71 did arise, and was a question of deporting undesirable aliens. In the course of the reply the deportation of British subjects was raised. The Home Secretary, possibly in a jocular way, did observe that he could not deport Lord Beaverbrook. I put it to your, Sir, even if that may be the fact, the quite uncalled for introduction of the name of a Member of the other House in a Question which dealt with persons concerned with subversive activities is something which is liable to be very much misunderstood. Indeed, as it is out of Order to make references to the conduct of Members of the other House, except on a substantive Motion; as it is also out of Order to make reference or use abusive language with regard to Members of another place, I put it to you, Sir, that the Home Secretary's remarks were in fact out of Order; and the least he should do would be to withdraw absolutely and wholeheartedly, and express regret for the frivolous introduction of the name of a distinguished Member of the other House.

Mr. Ede