asked the Minister of Food whether he will now announce the revocation of the Meals in Establishments Orders.

asked the Minister of Food what decision he has now reached as to whether fish may be served as an extra course in hotels and restaurants.

asked the Minister of Food whether he will now withdraw the order restricting the price of meals in hotels and restaurants to 5s.

As my right hon. Friend told the House on 13th March and again on 20th March, he is now reviewing these regulations, and will make an announcement as soon as possible.

Does the hon. Gentleman's right hon. Friend accept the view expressed by a caterers' association, during the week-end, that the abolition of the 5s. rule would do more than any other relaxation of control to attract foreign tourists here and to keep British holidaymakers in this country?

I would not care to say whether my right hon. Friend accepts that view or not, but this matter is under urgent consideration and everything appertaining to the subject will be taken into account.

Does not the Minister think that, especially in the case of fish, any such relaxation would not only stimulate the demand for fish, but would give large numbers of people a chance to have, in canteens and restaurants, a little more of something they want?

We have had representations from trawler owners about the difficulties they are experiencing in disposing of fish, and that also, of course, is a consideration to which full weight will be given.

Will my hon. Friend, in considering this matter, take into consultation the new British Travel Association?

We shall be happy to listen to anyone who can make a contribution to our arriving at a right decision in this matter.

As this matter has been under consideration by the Ministry for a very long time, and as we have had several promises that an early decision would be arrived at, is it not time that they made up their minds, especially as the tourist season is approaching?

There has been a change in tenancy, and we are, I think, entitled to a reasonable time to look round. There will be no delay in arriving at a decision.

As I am still not quite clear what the hon. Gentleman has in mind, will he tell me whether he agrees that the continuation of this Order is hypocritical, that it is evaded by one means or another, and that in many restaurants and hotels it does not reduce the price of food?

I could not agree that the reason for this Order was political, or that its continuation is political.

I said "hypocritical."

I do not think I can add anything to what I have said.

asked the Minister of Food what are the conditions under which a retailer may change his allocation of fat from a wholesaler.

Changes in the amount of fat which retailers may obtain from wholesalers are authorised by the local food office on the basis of the number of registered customers. Certain dates have been agreed with the trade associations on which retailers can change the wholesalers from whom they obtain fat, provided that eight weeks' notice is given to food offices. The next two such dates are 23rd April and 3rd December.

Is the Minister aware that the Question deals with the allocation of fat and not the amount; that if we return the fat before cooking we are told it would be all right when cooked, that if we send it back after cooking we are told it has been spoilt in cooking, and that if we write to the Ministry they look into the files, and not into the fat? In the meantime, West Oldham is facing all the horrors of a chip-less spring.

Without accepting what my hon. Friend said, I would be very pleased to go into this with him in person.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that present arrangements are unsatisfactory because a fish fryer or restaurateur cannot get more fat until he gets more customers, and he cannot get more customers until he gets more fat?

asked the Minister of Food why his Department, acting through the Olive Oil Association, is selling olive oil at 25s. 3d. a gallon to wholesale buyers in this country when those buyers could buy best quality olive oil at 15s. 8d. a gallon f.o.b. at Spanish ports; and whether in the circumstances he will free the importation of olive oil from control by his Department.

My Department does not now buy or sell olive oil. The first step towards the decontrol of the olive oil trade was made in 1947, when the Ministry's stocks were taken over by the Olive Oil Importers' Association. So as to make the changeover to full private trading as smooth as possible, an undertaking was given to this Association that they should be the sole importers until stocks had been substantially reduced. This arrangement will terminate not later than the autumn of this year.

Does the Minister's answer mean that until the autumn of this year home consumers of olive oil will have to pay 8s. a gallon above the world price?

It is quite true that, at the moment, oil can be bought cheaper than at the Association's price, but insurance, freight charges, and duty have to be added to the figure mentioned in the Question and, of course, the importers' profits. There is, here, a very real problem. Nobody could calculate with mathematical precision when the market would change from a seller's to a buyer's market, and I do not think it would be right to throw members of this Association to the wolves.

Does this mean that the Department themselves are very much concerned about this obvious difference in price to the purchaser of olive oil abroad and in this country? Will my hon. Friend's Department tackle seriously this obvious anomaly?

Does the hon. Gentleman's reply mean that his Department, in bulk buying, paid too high a price, that they saddled importers with the stock and that they are now protecting themselves and importers at the expense of the public?

No, I did not mean anything of the kind. We entered into an arrangement with this Association as far back as 1947. There was a very good yield of olive oil last year. That, of course, has changed the market and, in the circumstances, I cannot agree that it would be right to throw members of the Association to the wolves.

asked the Minister of Food what quantity of tea he proposes to purchase from India, Pakistan and Ceylon in 1950, as compared with the 465,000,000 lb. of tea secured from those countries in 1949.

We hope to buy as much tea this year as last, but negotiations are still in progress with the Governments concerned. Last year we contracted for 454,000,000 lb.

Has my hon. Friend tried to get tea from Indonesia at a moderate price?

We hope to get a small quantity this year.

asked the Minister of Food how much sugar has been allocated in each of the past three years for the manufacture of cakes, biscuits, table jellies and jam, respectively.

As the reply contains a table of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Would it not be true to say that the allocation of sugar for manufacturing purposes has been steadily increasing

asked the Minister of Food whether he can give an estimate of the quantity of fish caught by British trawlers which has been sold for fish meal, manure or has been wasted due to catches being landed by foreign trawlers, or because there has been a release of fish from cold store by his Department.

I am afraid that it is impossible to make any estimate of this sort. There are many reasons why the whole catch of British fish does not always find a market. In the last six months, two-thirds of the white fish sent to meal factories went in November and December, when there was some bunching of heavy landings by British vessels, but when foreign landings were not exceptionally heavy. Except during the past few days my Department has not sold any frozen fish since last summer. Most of the stocks of frozen fish are held by private traders.

asked the Minister of Food how much of the £33,450,000 advanced to the Overseas Food Corporation has been used for the Groundnut Scheme in Tanganyika: and how much for the sorghum and pig project in Queensland.

That is our hope and intention. The overall figures for manufacturers in 1950 were reduced by 35,000 tons as compared with 1949.

Why not take it off the ration altogether?

The sum of £32,458,680 has been allocated for expenditure in East Africa and the balance to projects undertaken by the Queensland-British Food Corporation. Of the first sum, £1,745,328 is recoverable from the East African Railways and Harbour Administration.

May the House be told whether the Minister of Food has yet had the opportunity of discussing expenditure with the Chairman of the Overseas Food Corporation, so that we do not accumulate any more white elephants in Tanganyika?

I do not know what conversations the Minister may or may not have had with the Chairman of the Overseas Food Corporation. This project is being given very careful examination.

asked the Minister of Food whether he will give an assurance that he will pay special attention to the needs of the individual ration-book holder when granting any ration increases in the near future.

That people living alone sometimes have special difficulties over rations is fully recognised, but to attempt to give such persons differential rations would prove, I am afraid, an impossible task.

Could the hon. Gentleman give us the proportions allocated to private rations and to catering establishments?

No, Sir, not without notice.

asked the Minister of Food whether he will consider giving smallholders the right to claim the additional rations now granted to agricultural workers.

No, Sir. The special cheese ration for agricultural workers is meant to provide for packed lunches to be eaten away from home, while working on their employer's farm. Smallholders are free to return home for meals.

Will the hon. Member consult with the Minister of Agriculture to ascertain whether equal shares of food can be given for equal work?

asked the Minister of Food if he will arrange to have supplies of points goods available at shops in the rural areas suitable for farm workers at the busy seasons on the farms.

Many of the foods covered by the points scheme are now fairly plentiful in all parts of the country. I regret I cannot promise that rural areas will be given a preferential share of any particular food. The Ministry's regional and local food officers will, however, be very willing to assist in overcoming any individual difficulties which may arise.

Does my hon. Friend realise that it is necessary to have points goods suitable for farm workers in villages at certain seasons in the year? Will he look into this matter again, because it is rather important to the countryside?

I will look into the matter, but I would point out that all grocers are able to carry stocks which have regard to the consideration my hon. Friend has raised.

When does the Minister hope to make a statement on the possible ending of the points rationing scheme?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware there is a real difficulty about the annual shortage of extra points goods, and that it would be greatly appreciated if he could do better this year than has been done in the past?

Will the Minister give the same preference to the agricultural areas as is given to the mining areas?

Could the Parliamentary Secretary say whether there is any truth in the rumour that the Minister intends to end points rationing?

It would be quite wrong for me to anticipate any ministerial statement.

Are we to take it, then, that reports this morning of speeches by the Minister have no foundation in fact?

Where are we?

asked the Minister of Food if he is aware that Accrington has not had any recent allocation of oranges; and whether this situation will be remedied.

Arrivals of oranges are rather few and far between at the moment because we are coming to the end of the winter season. But over the past 12 months, I would assure my hon. Friend that Accrington has done at least as well as any other part of the country.

Is the Minister aware that I am not asking about the last 12 months and that according to my information Accrington has had no oranges for the last five weeks?

We have to allocate to different parts of the country at different times. We never get sufficient at one time to cover the whole of the country.

asked the Minister of Food whether he is satisfied that the issue of a general licence to permit the import of new potatoes from European France between 21st March and 31st May next will not cause financial loss to Cornish growers, in view of the fact that the Cornish crop is expected to come on to the market during the last two weeks of May.

There is seldom any large quantity of new potatoes from Cornwall ready in May, and it is not anticipated, therefore, that difficulty will arise.

Would the Minister agree that if West Cornish potatoes start coming on the market at the end of May, at the same time as French and Jersey potatoes, there may be an accumulation which would carry over into the first week in June and cause a glut when the bulk lifting of Cornish potatoes takes place?

My information is that there is seldom any large quantity of Cornish new potatoes ready in May. This question ties up with the attempts which we are making to liberalise European trade.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary reconsider the date of expiry of the general import licence if he is assured that sufficient quantities of Cornish new potatoes are available early in May?

I am going to look into that.

asked the Minister of Food which of the following fruits and vegetables are to be received in this country under the Trade and Financial Agreement between the United Kingdom and Czechoslovakia of 28th September, 1949, for which we agreed to pay the sum of £1,900,000 in the first year; and whether there are any others not here listed: onions, bilberries, horseradish, fresh cherries, fresh plums, apricots, fresh pears and apples.

Under the Trade and Financial Agreement with Czechoslovakia, the trade has imported very small quantities of onions, bilberries and pears; no other fresh fruits or vegetables have been received or are expected in the first year of the Agreement. The figure of £1,900,000 to which the hon. Member refers relates almost entirely to imports of foodstuffs on private account, and will only be reached if traders think the demand in this country warrants it.

Can the Minister give an assurance that no British farmers will suffer on account of this Agreement?

I cannot give a guarantee to that extent. It is in the interests of this country to expand world trade as much as possible, and that can only be done if we are prepared to deal with other countries as we expect them to deal with us.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary have regard to the requirements of the consumer at the same time as he is considering the interests of the producer in this matter?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Minister of Food how many tons of apples were imported by his Department during 1949; what were the respective amounts of foreign currencies used to buy those apples; what was the sterling equivalent of the total sum; what total sum of money was received by his Department from the sale of the apples in the United Kingdom; and what percentage of the apples so imported were wasted.

Approximately 88,000 tons of apples, valued in sterling at about £3 ¾ million c.i.f., were imported by my Department in 1949. The only non-sterling currency included in this figure was approximately 700,000 dollars for Canadian apples. The amount realised on sale, after meeting distribution costs in this country, was about £5¼ million. The wastage was about 3 per cent.

Could the hon. Gentleman say what amount of dollars was represented by that wastage?

No, Sir; not without notice.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the very large sums of money invested in scientific apple culture in this country in the last few years, the large amount of employment given and the value of the trade? Will he have regard to those facts in any future negotiations for the purchase of foreign apples?

We always have full regard for the interests of home producers.

Is the Minister aware that a good many Kentish growers of apples last year did not sell all they grew? Is it not very unfortunate that we should be importing apples when we have very good apples of our own which we are not able to sell?

Bring the price down.

Foreigners often pack and market apples more attractively than we do.

If my hon. Friend knows of any of these good apples which Kentish farmers are unable to sell will he send them to Bermondsey? We have none there.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Government refused to allow home growers to have the packings for which they asked?

In view of the serious charge which he has just made will the hon. Gentleman remember that his colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, has said on more than one occasion that the best apple packing in this country is better than that of anywhere else in the world? Will he withdraw his statement, which was a serious reflection on the industry?

I do not want to be offensive to anybody, but I say that foreigners often grade and pack their commodities rather more attractively than some of our people do at home.

Is it not the case that, in spite of great developments in home growing during the last few years, it is still almost impossible to buy decent eating apples in many places in this country?

asked the Minister of Food how many tons of pears were imported by his Department during 1949; what were the respective amounts of foreign currencies used to buy those pears; what was the sterling equivalent of the total sum; what total sum of money was received by his Department from the sale of the pears in the United Kingdom; and what percentage of the pears so imported were wasted.

My Department did not import any pears in 1949. The remaining parts of the Question do not, therefore, arise.

asked the Minister of Food whether he is aware that under his existing Order dated 10th March, potatoes in certain areas can only be transported by a "C" licence lorry which imposes an unnecessary restriction on the disposal of the potatoes; and what steps he will take to remedy this position.

Restrictions on the movement of potatoes from certain counties were quite deliberately imposed by an Order dated 17th February to reserve the better keeping potatoes for consumption at the end of the season. They will be removed when it becomes desirable to draw on those supplies. To avoid interference with local trade movement in "C" licence vehicles is allowed.

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind the loss to British transport services and to British Railways by an absurd order of this kind?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Minister of Food when he will allow Devonshire farmers to sell clotted cream.

asked the Minister of Food whether in view of increased milk production, he is prepared to authorise the sale of clotted cream.

There are serious difficulties about this and I can add nothing at present to the answer already given by my right hon. Friend.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his reply will cause great disappointment to people living in Devonshire, who believe that Devonshire cream would be a great inducement to tourists and would compensate them to some extent for their dull rations?

Will the hon. Gentleman remember that this proposal would be very helpful to many farms in the County of Devon? Will he also remember that, as my hon. Friend has said, the numerous visitors we get to the county are very partial to a modicum of Devonshire cream? It is one of the many important amenities of Devon.

Is my hon. Friend aware that Cornish cream is equally as good as Devonshire cream?

Will my hon. Friend see that permission to produce whipped cream will not be given unless and until everybody has a full milk ration?

asked the Minister of Food what is the degree of extraction of flour from wheat in use today for the making of normal bread; the degree of extraction in 1938; and what are the contents in each case, of protein, fat, iron, calcium, phosphorus and vitamins, including carotene.

The extraction rate of flour used in 1938 varied, but 70 per cent. was the most usual; the present extraction rate is 85 per cent. With permission, I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the average composition of flour of 70 per cent. and 85 per cent. extraction rate.

Is my hon. Friend aware that Members of Parliament have recently received urgent recommendations from some of the parties interested in bread making, asking us to press for a return to the old extraction rate? Will my hon. Friend tell us whether his Department is satisfied that the present grade is healthier and better than the pre-war grade?

All I can say is that we get representations from both sides—some for and some against. We have to arrive at what we think is the best conclusion having regard to the whole situation.

Does not the Minister agree that in 1945 Government experts stated that an 80 per cent. extraction rate supplied all the vitamins that were necessary?

asked the Minister of Food how much of the flour used for human consumption is bleached by means of nitrogen trichloride or other agents.

Over 90 per cent. is treated with nitrogen trichloride; of the remainder, some is untreated and the balance is treated with any of several lesser known flour improvers.

Is my hon. Friend aware that for some considerable time we have known that animals are very seriously affected when they eat flour treated in this way, and that this treatment is illegal in many countries, including America? Will he give an assurance that his Department will consider making representations with a view to stopping this practice altogether?

The information I have is that there is nothing detrimental at all to human health in the present method of treating flour. So far as any harm to animals is concerned, as that has been raised I will go into the matter.

Will my hon. Friend ask his experts to reconsider the matter, in view of recent evidence and publications?

If my hon. Friend has any evidence I shall be very happy to consider it.

asked the Minister of Food by how much the agene process has been increased per sack of flour since 1939; and to what extent the agene process is to be continued.

I regret that the information asked for in the first part of the Question is not available. As to the second part, a change in technique which affects over 90 per cent. of the flour used in this country is being introduced, but this will take some time to effect, especially as the necessary plant, and supplies of the new improver (chlorine dioxide) have to be secured from the United States. However, the millers in co-operation with the Ministry are doing all they can to speed the change. I am sending the hon. Member a copy of an announcement made by the Ministry of Health and my Department on 27th January, which explains the position.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned "improver." Can he say what improvement is being sought?

Possibly in palatability, for one thing.

asked the Minister of Food whether, in connection with the dried egg which has been, or is about to be purchased from the United States of America, he will give the approximate date of the manufacture of this dried egg and an assurance that no part of the quantities purchased have been manufactured for more than three years.

It was all made in 1949.

May we be quite sure that the Government will not lend themselves to the purchase of dried egg which is over two years old, in view of the large quantities which exist in many parts of the world? May I have that assurance?

The hon. Gentleman may have that assurance. We have the word of the U.S. Department of Agriculture that this sale is from 1949 production.

asked the Minister of Food if he will now cease to trade in sheep and hog casings and allow the export of sheep casings, without licence, and the import of hog casings from the United States of America and Canada, under licence, by private traders.

The Ministry of Food does not trade in sheep and hog casings. While the present shortage of sausage casings continues we cannot allow sheep casings to be exported, except where they will earn dollars or other hard currency. Some hog casings are already imported under licence from the U.S.A. and Canada and paid for with dollars earned by the export of sheep casings to those countries, but I regret that we cannot afford any more dollars for further imports.

Does that affect the price of haggis?

asked the Minister of Food what alteration in the price of coffee is contemplated.

Because of the big rise in the world price of coffee there will have to be some increase in retail prices in this country. I cannot yet say when or how much this will be.

asked the Minister of Food if he is aware that slaughtering facilities at Newbury are inadequate to deal with the additional bacon pigs now being offered for slaughter there owing to foot and mouth disease regulations; and if he will arrange for an additional slaughterhouse to be opened so that local farmers and smallholders can dispose of pigs before they become wastefully fat.

I know that the prolonged foot and mouth disease restrictions in the Newbury district have prevented the slaughter of pigs at the usual places outside the restricted area and have resulted in increased numbers having to be killed at Newbury slaughterhouse and at the Abingdon bacon factory. I am having inquiries made locally to see if there is any other slaughterhouse that could be brought into use immediately to handle pigs.

Will not the Minister act promptly? These slaughterhouses are not being used, yet over the week-end I had no fewer than six telephone calls from farmers and smallholders who cannot get their pigs killed?

If the hon. Member will give me the addresses of the slaughterhouses I will go into it immediately.

asked the Minister of Food if he will allocate more butter or margarine for the preserving and potting of an increased quantity of Morecambe shrimps.

We will willingly consider any individual application on its merits.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this delicious food is full of protein and, since it will make a contribution to the variety of our food, will he be generous to the producers in this matter?

It is because we know that fact that we are quite willing to consider any application.

In his willingness to consider these applications will my hon. Friend also bear in mind the necessity of not granting too much margarine and butter to manufacturers while we have such short supplies of butter at home?

asked the Minister of Food what is the drop in the consumption of bread in the last three months; what is the percentage of dollar wheat in flour in 1949; and what is the proposed percentage in 1950.

There has been very little change in the consumption of bread during the last three months, except for a small seasonal drop in January. The dollar wheat content of the flour distributed in 1949 was about 58 per cent., but it is too early to forecast what the corresponding percentage may be in 1950.

If the hon. Gentleman cannot tell me the proportion for 1950, can he tell me the proportion for the first three months of this year?

Not without notice.

asked the Minister of Transport why Messrs. Abingdon Coaches have been ordered to discontinue the private motor-coach service provided by them for naval personnel stationed at Royal Naval Air Station, Culham, proceeding on week-end leave to London; and whether he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Transport on what grounds men of the Royal Naval Air Station, Culham, Berkshire, were prevented from travelling on week-end leave by motor-coach by his withdrawal of their coach, and so obliged to travel by train.

Acting under his general instructions to secure all reasonable economy in the consumption of motor fuel, especially where empty running is involved, the Regional Transport Commissioner arranged with the coach company not to use their fuel ration for the service in question. It is in the public interest that the best use should be made of the limited amount of fuel available to operators and that it should not be spent unnecessarily on journeys for which, as in this instance, there are reasonable alternative facilities.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that not only the firm mentioned in the Question, but also four other firms were advised by his Department that unless they stopped this service their allocation of petrol would be cut off completely? Does he and his Department approve of this sort of blackmail?

I should like to look into the question of whether there was an instruction or not. This is a common practice with regional transport commissioners and operators throughout the country. It is to avoid empty running. I am not aware that in this case there was an instruction. My information is that it was a case of the usual practice of co-operation between operators and the regional transport commissioner.

Has the right hon. Gentleman consulted the Admiralty in this matter? If so, what are their reactions?

No, Sir. It is not a matter for the Minister. There are general instructions to regional transport commissioners, as I have indicated, to save fuel. At this stage it is a matter for the commissioner and not for overriding decision by the Minister.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this sort of thing is happening in other parts of the country, and that it causes difficulty, especially for men going home on week-end leave who have no train facilities available? It cuts down their leave. It hits them very hard.

I quite appreciate the need for every consideration to be given to such circumstances. On the other hand, it is essential, in furtherance of general national policy, that these journeys should not be unduly expensive in fuel consumption. In this case additional facilities were provided which largely met the circumstances.

The right hon. Gentleman says that these are matters for regional decision. Will he not agree that the final responsibility is his and, therefore, Parliament's? Will he look at this again to see, if he does not agree with the regional authorities, what other steps he can take?

Yes; but while I do not dispute for a moment that the final decision rests with the Minister, in this case it would mean withdrawing the general instruction about the need to save fuel, which, of course, is a Government one.

Can the right hon. Gentleman really say that this decision was taken to save fuel? Is he sure it was not to drive traffic somewhere else?

I can give the assurance that this decision was not taken for the purpose of driving traffic to any other form of transport. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Had there been a scheduled bus service in this case the same decision would have applied. It is in line with the decisions being operated all over the country, to avoid empty running. In this case it would have meant empty running on both the outward and return journeys.

Is the Minister aware that in the case of one city, which is on the main line, and where there is a barracks within a quarter of a mile of the station, a similar order has been introduced? Surely, that cannot save very much petrol.

I beg to give notice that in view of the gravity of the matter and the unsatisfactory nature of the reply I shall raise the question again at the earliest possible moment.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he proposes to accept or reject the advice now tendered to him by the permanent members of the Transport Tribunal acting as an advisory committee under Section 82 of the Transport Act, 1947.

This matter is still under consideration.

How long does the right hon. Gentleman propose to delay this important decision? Is he aware—are the Cabinet aware—of the very great hardships and difficulties which are being imposed on private enterprise by the fact that people are incapable of fixing their prices until they know what the costs of transport are to be?

I was under the impression that in a recent Debate the hon. Member himself was urging the importance of the effects of such a decision. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] At the moment, I have nothing to add to the statement I have made.

Will the right hon. Gentleman be able to make a statement before we adjourn for Easter?

I do not know that I shall be in a position to do so; I cannot say definitely at the moment.

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain how the inter-Departmental inquiry discussing transport rates in Scotland can discuss the subject intelligently when they do not know on what to base their costs?

Answer.

I can only repeat that I am not able to make any further statement now.

asked the Minister of Transport when he proposes to set up area users consultative committees throughout the country.

The Central Transport Consultative Committee has been in existence since December, 1948. Committees for Scotland and Wales are operating, and I recently set up the Area Transport Users Consultative Committee for London. My view is that until the British Transport Commission has had a reasonable time in which to make progress in the consolidation of their undertakings, it is not desirable to set up the local committees provided for in the Act. I had also hoped that I could take into consideration the needs of area road passenger schemes in deciding the areas of these consultative committees, but progress in this direction has not been as rapid as I would have wished and, consequently, I propose to reconsider the establishment of these area transport users consultative committees.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that if those bodies were set up the relationships between Transport Commission and the users of transport would be very much better than they are at present?

As I have already said, I am proposing to consider that matter now.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman's answer show that this method of safeguarding consumers is now a demonstrable farce? He says he has set up the London area one, but is he not aware that he set it up only four weeks ago, that no recommendations have come from it, and that despite that the Transport Commission are now trying to screw another £3½ million out of the travelling public in London?

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are many rural areas, very inadequately served by buses and trains, whose problems can only be solved in consultation with the people on the spot, the people who live there; and does his answer today mean that he is not going to set up consultative committees to cover such areas as Essex and East Anglia?

No, certainly not. If my hon. Friend will read my reply he will see that it is the intention now to review this situation and to proceed.

Is it a fact that the consultative committee for Wales has met on only one occasion since it was set up?

I am not aware of that.

The Minister based his explanation on the delay in the setting up of an area scheme. Is he taking any action to speed up the progress of the area scheme?

It would certainly have been an advantage if one could have taken that problem into consideration. As I have pointed out, I cannot wait any longer.

In view of the fact that the restrictions placed on Members of the House were related to the existence of these advisory committees, if the advisory committees are not to be appointed will the right hon. Gentleman consult with his colleague the Lord President to revise the rights of Members in asking questions about transport problems.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman cannot properly have digested my reply. I have not indicated that it is not the intention. I have explained the reason why they have not been appointed, and have said that it is the intention to review this matter.

On a point of Order. Is not the question of the right of Members to ask questions a matter to be determined by you, Mr. Speaker, and not by the Minister?

It is a matter of the custom of the House, which I have to interpret.

Is it not a fact that not one recommendation affecting fares in London has come to the right hon. Gentleman from the whole of this machinery to date? Does not that mean, as my right hon. and learned Friend says, that the whole machinery for looking after the consumer has completely broken down in this connection?

I entirely disagree with that view. As I explained during one of our Debates, the procedure is for these bodies to make their representations to the Minister. It does not follow that they will not, but I am not able to say whether they will or not; they have the opportunity.

asked the Minister of Transport which Governments have now ratified the March, 1948, Convention on the Inter-Governmental Maritime Consultative Organisation; and what progress is now being made with this organisation.

So far, the United Kingdom, Canada and the Netherlands have accepted the Convention to which my hon. Friend refers. It does not, however, come into operation until it has been accepted by 21 countries, including seven with not less than one million gross tons of shipping. Preparations for the setting up of the organisation have been carried as far as possible in these circumstances.

Can the Minister not give us any further information as to the prospects of this organisation being established, and as to when these other ratifications are likely to come about? In the meantime, what is happening about discriminatory practices, which are the main reason for setting up this organisation?

All I can say is that the Foreign Office are doing all they possibly can to influence other countries to sign this Convention.

asked the Minister of Transport whether any date has yet been fixed for the abandonment of the South London trams and their substitution by buses; whether this is to take place gradually; and whether he will publish the proposed time-table in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

It is expected that the conversion of the South London trams to bus operations will start in the autumn of this year, and that the programme will be completed in 1952.

asked the Minister of Transport on what grounds he has now decided that a pedestrian has the right to cross the road at a controlled crossing when the lights are green to the motorist, which is contrary to his previous decision.

I am sorry if there appears to have been any inconsistency in my statements on this matter, but it is by no means a simple one. The existing regulations give priority to the pedestrian who has started to cross on a controlled crossing before traffic has been permitted by a signal to proceed over the crossing. This would be straightforward if it was not necessary to take into account turning traffic and traffic at complex junctions. I had hoped by revising the existing regulations to define precisely the respective rights and obligations of pedestrians and motorists at controlled crossings in all circumstances in clear and simple language, but this has not proved practicable. For this reason, as I explained to my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester. North-West (Mr. Janner), on 27th March, I may have to deal with the problem by giving guidance on the subject in the Highway Code.

Will the Minister do his best to expedite these regulations, because the public do not know where they stand? Is he aware that on 15th November, 1948, in reply to Vice-Admiral Taylor, he said:

"No, Sir, the pedestrian has not that right when the lights are against him."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th November, 1948; Vol. 458, c. 3.]

I have already explained that so far my legal advisers and the police cannot agree on simple and clear language that would make the position plain to the public. That is why it is probable that this will have to be dealt with in the Highway Code.

Does that imply that when it is dealt with in the Highway Code the language will be neither sensible, simple, nor clear?

It is quite possible to give general guidance without a legal definition. After all, the Highway Code is taken into consideration by the courts, and yet they are not bound by definite legal language.

When the Minister reviews the present arrangements about pedestrian crossings where there are lights, will he also try to make clear what is the position where there are pedestrian crossing and no lights, as there is still a great deal of confusion?

In that case the position is plain: the pedestrian has the right.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has yet received the report which, in February, 1949, he asked the Transport Commission to submit on the question of occupational level crossings; what steps he proposes to take to bring the legal position of people using such crossings into line with modern practice; and whether he will make a statement.

No, Sir, but I am informed that considerable progress has been made in the study of the legal and practical problems involved, and that the British Transport Commission expect to be able to send to me in the course of the next few weeks the report which the Railway Executive are preparing.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the answer which he has just given is only a slight elaboration of the answer he gave over a year ago; and will he say whether it is the policy of the Commission to allow their decisions to mature as long as possible in the hope that they will improve?