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National Insurance

Volume 483: debated on Monday 5 February 1951

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Applicants (Payments)

1.

asked the Minister of National Insurance what factors are taken into account in determining payments to applicants for National Assistance.

Full details are given in the National Assistance (Determination of Need) Regulations approved by this House. The main factors are the applicant's dependants, the rent he is paying and the extent and nature of his resources.

Is the Minister able to confirm her statement of 21st November that the means of the applicants play no part in determining whether they do or do not receive assistance, or the amount of the assistance?

I think that any comment I have made on this subject has been on the means of the family, which play no part at all.

Old Age Pensions

2.

asked the Minister of National Insurance if in view of the increasing cost of living to old age pensioners, she will consider stopping deductions from their pension when they continue to work, and their total earnings exceed one pound per week.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Newport (Mr. Peter Freeman) on Thursday last.

Having read that reply this morning, may I ask the right hon. Lady if she intends to take any action, as she foreshadowed might be possible in that reply, in view of the great urgency of this matter?

Has my right hon. Friend considered a proposal I put to her predecessor, that people should be allowed to earn up to half time in the undermanned industries? It was then being considered.

Yes, Sir. I have already told my hon. and learned Friend that we have considered such proposals, but he must recognise that there are repercussions in these cases, which must be taken into account, and that we have no intention of allowing pensions to become subsidies for wages.

4.

asked the Minister of National Insurance how many old age pensions are now being paid in Accrington, Rishton, Oswaldtwistle, Clayton-le-Moors and Church; and what were the corresponding numbers in February, 1945.

Statistics of these payments are not kept on a basis which would enable them to be broken down by localities to give the information desired.

5.

asked the Minister of National Insurance if she will assess the casual earnings of old age pensioners on a monthly instead of weekly basis.

No, Sir. I see no reason to modify the decision, reached after careful consideration in 1946, that the fairest, and indeed the only practicable, way of arriving at any necessary deduction on account of earnings is on a weekly basis.

Is it not rather hard on a pensioner who wants to supplement his pension by an odd job on one day of the week? Would it not be fairer if these earnings were accounted on a monthly instead of a weekly basis?

No, Sir. The hon. Gentleman does not seem to have given this matter very full consideration. Has he considered the position of the pensioner who, at the end of the month, has a deduction in his pension made on account of earnings received at the beginning of the month—earnings which have already been spent?

6.

asked the Minister of National Insurance if she will arrange to make available in the near future statistics indicating the number of men between 65 and 70 years of age who have ceased to work full time, but who would be willing to work full time if they were entitled to draw their full pension, unconditionally, as they can at the age of 70.

This information is not available and I do not see how it could be obtained.

Will not the Minister agree that she must be able to obtain a fairly accurate estimate of this number, which is increasing rapidly?

Surely the hon. Gentleman must realise that the only way I could obtain this information would be by putting a hypothetical question to every man of 65 years of age.

14.

asked the Minister of National Insurance if she will consider in the present national emergency removing the present conditions with regard to the receipt of old age pensions, which discourages men between 65 and 70 years of age from working full time.

21.

asked the Minister of National Insurance whether she will review the present insurance scheme in order to make it possible for the services of people over 65 years of age to be available for the community without injuring the rights of the people concerned to draw their full pension.

I would refer the hon. Members to the reply given to the hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Sutcliffe) last Thursday by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service.

Can the Minister give us an assurance that she is working in close conjunction with the Minister of Labour in considering this urgent matter?

Yes, Sir, I shall probably have conversations with him, but I would draw the hon. Member's attention to the fact that the present structure of the scheme is so designed as to meet exactly the hon. Member's wishes.

In view of the fact that it is foolish to rob ourselves of the experienced ability of many of these elderly people, would my right hon. Friend give urgent consideration to the request in my question?

I hope my hon. Friend heard the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Sutcliffe), which also applies to my hon. Friend's Question.

15.

asked the Minister of National Insurance what the cost would be to the Exchequer of raising from £1 per week to £2 per week the earnings of old age pensioners before deduction is made from their pensions; and what the cost would be of a corresponding rise in the permitted hours of work per week.

I regret that this information is not available. There is no means of knowing how many people of pensionable age now in regular work would retire and claim their pensions if the changes suggested by the hon. Member were made.

Would the right hon. Lady bear in mind, in offsetting this amount, whatever it may be, the benefits to the nation and the increased productivity which might follow from the underlying idea, and the benefits to active old age pensioners who are anxious to work if they are not discouraged?

Pneumoconiosis (Compensation)

3.

asked the Minister of National Insurance why it is not possible for her Department to give an estimate of the cost which would be involved by eliminating the five-year qualification relating to compensation to pneumoconiosis sufferers.

I have no means of knowing the number of such claims to workmen's compensation which failed on the five-year limit, or of estimating the number which would arise if the limit were removed.

Would the right hon. Lady consider asking the National Union of Mineworkers, because I am quite certain that their branch secretaries would be only too happy to provide her with the figures?

In any question which relates to workers' conditions, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we do consult representatives of the workers.

Dismissed Workers (Benefit)

7.

asked the Minister of National Insurance if, in view of the fact that unemployment benefit is being withheld from persons dismissed from their employment for non-union membership, she will, in the interests of liberty, take steps to have this principle reversed.

I cannot, at present, add to the reply given to the Question by the hon. Member on this subject on 12th December last.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that on that occasion she said that the matter was sub judice? The matter is no longer sub judice; therefore, does she not think the people who are not members of trades unions are entitled to the same protection as was given to the conscientious objector during the war?

Since that time, this matter has become the subject of appeal to the National Insurance Commissioner. It is, therefore, still sub judice and I am unable to make any comments at the moment.

Maternity Benefit

9.

asked the Minister of National Insurance how many mothers were refused maternity benefit and attendance allowance in 1950 owing to their claims not being made within six months of the date of confinement; if she is aware of the feeling of injustice created by such refusals; and whether any modification of this time limit is to be introduced.

This information is not available, but the time limits, along with the other conditions for maternity benefit, are at present under review by the National Insurance Advisory Committee.

Part-Time Workers

11.

asked the Minister of National Insurance whether in order to safeguard employers of part-time labour from having to pay large arrears of insurance contributions in respect of part-time employees whom they understand to be in the primary employment of another, she will make compulsory notification by all such part-time employees of the names and addresses of all persons from whom they may accept other part-time employment.

I am not aware of any general difficulty which would justify such a burdensome measure of compulsion.

Does the right hon. Lady think it fair that this extra responsibility should be placed on the employers of part-time labour? It is especially a responsibility which is bound to increase with the rearmament drive.

I have always regarded the hon. and gallant Member as fair in matters of this kind, and surely he would not ask me to put the same responsibility on the shoulders of the employees.

Supplementary Grants

12.

asked the Minister of National Insurance to what extent her regulations permit fuel and clothes, or a monetary grant in lieu thereof, to be granted by the National Assistance Board to old age pensioners in genuine need.

The scale rates laid down in the regulations are intended to cover normal expenditure on fuel and clothing. Additions, whether in cash or kind, can, however, be made where necessary to meet some special circumstance or exceptional need.

In these days of almost prohibitive costs of clothing and coal for those living on fixed incomes, could not the Assistance Board, which is so sympathetically administered by Mr. George Buchanan, be given extended powers in this matter?

They are given wide powers of discretion, and I am sure that the hon. Member will be glad to learn that last year they made 132,500 lump sum grants.

In view of the rising cost of living, which is nobody's fault particularly—[Laughter]—it is certainly not that of the Government—can my right hon. Friend tell us whether, in the case of old age pensioners and people qualified for supplementary assistance, it is proposed to extend the discretionary allowances in order to help them in their present difficulties?

Is it clear that the Board have discretion to take immediate action to increase the allowances, following on the increased price of coal announced by the Minister's right hon. Friend last week?

They have discretion to take into account the circumstances in which a person lives.

17.

asked the Minister of National Insurance what additional steps she proposes to take to alleviate the distress amongst old age pensioners in view of the effect of re-armament upon the cost of living.

I would remind my hon. Friend that if any pensioner is in need it is open to him to apply to the National Assistance Board for supplementary assistance.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that that does not answer the question I addressed to her?

22.

asked the Minister of National Insurance whether she will consult with the Assistance Board with a view to giving greater assistance to supplementary pensioners in need of boots, bedclothes and wearing apparel, in view of the rising cost of living.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. Browne) on 28th November, a copy of which I am sending him.

Can the Minister tell me whether that reply is encouraging, or is couched in the usual language?

It is always very difficult to satisfy my hon. Friend, but perhaps the figures which I have given—he may not have been in the House when I gave them—will go some way towards doing so. During the last year, we gave 132,000 lump sums in supplementary grants to assist pensioners, which totalled £490,643.

Injured Workers (Compensation)

13.

asked the Minister of National Insurance how much has been paid in compensation to workers injured at their work during 1948, 1949 and 1950.

The total amount paid in benefit under the Industrial Injuries scheme from 5th July, 1948 (when the scheme came into operation) to 31st March, 1949, was £5,675,000. For later figures I would ask my hon. Friend to await the accounts of the Industrial Injuries Fund for 1949–50, which will be published shortly.

Gas Workers (Strike Payments)

16.

asked the Minister of National Insurance if the National Assistance Board has recovered payments made to gas workers in the recent illegal strike.

With great respect, is not the Minister satisfied that, under Section 9 of the 1948 Act, the Board is entitled to recover this claim? As this illegal strike was of great inconvenience to the public, is it reasonable that the public should be asked to subsidise an illegal strike?

The hon. Member is under a misapprehension. I would ask him to read the Act again, more carefully.

Has the Minister read the Section of the Act? Is she also aware that it is not only in accordance with the Act that recovery should be made but in accordance with the intentions of the National Assistance Board, as expressed in a letter of 31st October last, when they said:

"If assistance is granted to a person on strike, it is on the understanding that the amount granted will be repaid"?

If the hon. Member reads the Act more carefully he will see that we can only recover allowances which are made when a man is in full employment.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that during the Committee stage of the National Assistance Act we passed an Amendment which abolished the Vagrancy Act, which the Opposition now seek to resurrect?

Seasonal Workers (Regulations)

19.

asked the Minister of National Insurance when the hon. Member for Huntingdon may expect a reply to his letter, dated 11th January, to the Minister of Labour which has been passed to her Department for attention; and whether she will make a statement about the operation of the National Insurance Seasonal Workers Regulations, 1950, so far as they affect the payment of unemployment benefit to women who are employed in agriculture, except during the off-season from Christmas until the end of the winter.

I have now written to the hon. Member. I do not think that there is any more I can say by way of general explanation of the position.

Is the Minister aware that these seasonal regulations produced a most unexpected result in the farming community in the Fens, where for years women had worked all the year through, as far as they possibly could, and, quite rightly, were entitled to unemployment benefit? Now a sudden change has been made. Will she look into the matter again?

The hon. Member surely recognises that in dealing with very many of these seasonal occupations we have a very difficult task. Before the regulations were made we invited representatives of all seasonal workers to give evidence before the National Insurance Advisory Committee and, having received that evidence, the regulations were drafted. I think it would be only right and proper to allow the regulations to operate for a year to see how they affect the position.

Is the Minister aware this is something which is causing great concern not only in my hon. Friend's constituency but in other parts of the country? Would she say why women—they generally are women—who buy a stamp should not be entitled to receive benefits when they cease to be employed?

The hon. Member is quite wrong. They have made a contribution and they are still entitled to unemployment benefit during the regular working period. They are also entitled to sickness benefit, which is very important to them.

Would the Minister say to whom she was referring when she said that before the regulations were drafted representatives of seasonal workers were consulted?

The representatives of the unions which represent workers in the agricultural industry.

Would the Minister consider franking the cards of seasonal workers when they are unemployed during the off-season?

May I ask if the information the Minister has given about consultations which took place would lead us to suppose that if the advice happens to be wrong she will not do anything to put the matter right?

I think that the people who should advise us concerning the conditions of workers are workers' representatives.

Egypt (Minister's Visit)

20.

asked the Minister of National Insurance if she will make a statement or issue a White Paper on her visit to Egypt so that this country may benefit from the experience gained by the working of the social service schemes of Egypt.

10.

asked the Minister of National Insurance what was the detailed cost of her official visit to Egypt; what was the object of this visit; and what other similar visits are contemplated.

I went with two officials of my Department on a return visit to Egypt as the guest of the Egyptian Government, several of whose Ministers and officials had recently visited this country. The object of these visits was to foster good relations and to examine the latest developments in the social services of each country. The cost of our visit was £435 5s. 6d., of which £400 10s. 6d. was for fares. I am not aware that any similar visit is at present contemplated.

Would the right hon. Lady tell us what she learned from that visit, or did she go there to teach them something?

I am very surprised that the hon. Member should ask me that question, in view of the fact that he always professes, in the House, to have knowledge of what is happening in the Middle East and Far Eastern countries. I am surprised to learn that he does not know that during this year the Minister of Education in Egypt, who was invited by Oxford University recently to receive an honorary degree, introduced universal free education there; that the State, for the first time, has sponsored and financed welfare services; and that last week, on 2nd February, 400 offices were opened in one region from which to administer national assistance. In my opinion, these things should be encouraged, and if my visit did anything to encourage them it was well worth while.

Would the Minister consider, favourably, arranging for a meeting in the House to instruct the Opposition in the knowledge which she has gained from overseas, as it appears that they could do with some education on this subject?

Will the right hon. Lady accept my gratitude for having given me the information in her supplementary answer for which I asked in my original Question?