House Of Commons
Thursday, 8th February, 1951
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
Prayers
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
Oral Answers To Questions
Civil Servants (British Legion)
1.
asked the Minister of Labour why instructions have been issued to civil servants preventing them from being officers of branches of the British Legion.
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for Norfolk, Central (Brigadier Medlicott) on 1st February, 1951.
Will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider this question, in view of the commonly accepted purposes of this organisation? Surely civil servants should not be prevented from holding positions in which they can help their fellow men.
I think the hon. Member has rather misunderstood the point, because this is an organisation which is concerned with questions which have also to be dealt with in my own Department, and it is undesirable that a person should, as it were, be sitting on both sides of the table.
As the area of controversy is so limited in relation to the sum total of the work of these organisations ought not the right hon. Gentleman to be capable of leaving this matter to the discretion of the civil servants?
The organisations referred to have had the matter explained to them and are satisfied.
While understanding that in some cases a civil servant's duty might cause conflict, may I ask whether the Minister will agree that it is, in general, desirable that the practice hitherto observed by Ministers, and the Civil Service, of allowing considerable numbers of people to hold these offices is a good one?
There has been no interference with that practice.
National Service
Apprentices
2.
asked the Minister of Labour whether apprentices in Z and G reserves will be exempted from call-up.
Apprentices in occupations which would be of special importance in an emergency will not be recalled.
Reserved Occupations
3.
asked the Minister of Labour if he will make a statement as to the occupations which he intends to treat as reserved occupations for the purpose of the recall of Reservists and in an emergency.
10.
asked the Minister of Labour what are the occupations in which men will be reserved for industry in the event of general mobilisation, referred to in paragraph 5 of Command Paper 8146.
These lists are at present purely provisional and subject to change from time to time. Consultation on them with the two sides of industry is about to begin, and they could not at this stage usefully be published. On security grounds it is desirable not to publish them earlier than necessary.
is it the right hon. Gentleman's intention to publish them before their effect indirectly becomes apparent owing to the selection of men for call up as Z reservists this summer?
No. The hon. Member's Question refers to "an emergency" and it would not be desirable to let a potential enemy know the sort of occupations which are at the moment restricted.
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is on the other side of the balance sheet, as it were, an enormous advantage to be gained by cer- tainty in this matter both from the points of view of the person concerned and of his own Department? The Service Departments may be guilty of counting men twice unless they know whether they are reserved or not.
I think it is desirable, where we can speak about broad reservations, to give information as early as possible, and I will do that. But I think Members on all sides of the House will agree that there are some special kinds of reservations which it would not be desirable to publish.
4.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he will give an assurance that in occupations where there will be a selective call-up, Class Z reservists will, wherever possible, be given the opportunity of deferred positions in preference to those persons who were in these positions during the last war.
No. Sir. This would be quite impracticable.
Why would it be impracticable in the case of certain reserved occupations in which there may be surplus manpower at present? If any have to go can it not be those who were able to dodge the last war?
The hon. Member seems to have forgotten the purpose of the exercise which is about to be undertaken. It is to refresh the training of those who have already been trained.
Could the Minister explain what is the position of Members of Parliament who are in the Z Reserve?
That is entirely another question, but as I took part in a controversy on this matter during the late war I think I can inform my hon. Friend that His Majesty's commands take precedence over everything else.
8.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he will give an assurance that all men who are now less than 50 years of age and were in reserved occupations during the last war will be vetted to see whether their present jobs are such as to leave them free to be amongst the first to be called up for active service, in place of some of the Class Z reservists.
No, Sir. Even if this were practicable, I have no power under the present law to do so.
Apart from the present call up of Z reservists, if men are called up at a later period for a longer term, or if hostilities break out, could not this vetting take place?
As I said earlier, I would ask the hon. Member to bear in mind what is really being done. If he does he will then see that these Questions are not on the point at all.
Would the Minister bear in mind, nevertheless, that there are large numbers of skilled men in civil life, possibly not now in reserved occupations, whose occupation in civil life is closely similar to that which they could do in the Forces in war, and that special units of such men might represent a big saving of manpower, and be of great value to the Forces?
They would also be a loss to their industrial occupation. We have to consider and balance the requirements of the Services and of civil occupations. It would be no use calling up men for the Services who would not have arms, because we would not have men in civil occupations to make them.
Is not this extraordinarily high rate of medical exemption proof positive of the rotten nutritional standards under the Tory Government before the war?
I think the whole House will recognise the altruism of my hon. Friend.
Exempted Men, 1939–45
6.
asked the Minister of Labour what percentage of men eligible for enlistment in the war 1939–45 were exempted on grounds other than medical; and how many of such exempted men are estimated to be under 30 years of age today.
It is estimated that about 40 per cent. of the men registered under the National Service Acts during the war were deferred on industrial grounds, of whom about 400,000 are now under the age of 30. This includes a proportion of men who would have been rejected if they had been medically examined. About two-thirds of these were employed in coalmining, agriculture or the Merchant Navy, and most of the remainder were key men in the engineering and metal industries.
In view of the fact that these numbers are something like half the Z reservists under 30, what is the availability of those men for military service?
The hon. Member seems to have misunderstood the purpose of the additional training. It is to give a refresher course to people who have already received some training.
That is understood, but, at the same time, is there not also the long-term policy which the Minister must consider?
Then these men would be among those who would be over age and they would not be called up.
19.
asked the Minister of Labour what steps he is taking to ensure that men who were exempted from military service for the whole, or most of the period, from September, 1939, until July, 1945, through being in reserved occupations, but who are now still under 40 years of age, will be called upon to take their fair share in the defence of their country during the next three years.
Some of the men to whom the hon. Member refers were called up after July, 1945, and are liable as Z reservists to recall. With regard to the others, I have no power to call up men over the age of 26.
Is the right hon. Gentleman trying to create an un-military caste? Why not fair shares for all?
Hon. Members really ought to try to bear in mind what we are trying to do. These tendentious questions, based upon a misunderstanding, give rise to more misunderstanding.
The right hon. Gentleman has, in answer to three Questions, said that he is only calling up highly trained people, but I have details of a case where a person has received 13 days' training and is now 44 years of age. Does it not seem a little unfair that such people should be called up while those to whom my hon. Friend has referred are disregarded?
I should like the hon. Member to give me particulars of that case.
Can the Minister say on what he founds his statement that he has no power to call up any man over 26, in view of the fact that his predecessor based his decision to that effect purely on policy and not upon lack of power?
The Question relates to the next three years, which we must assume to be years of peace. The call-up is governed by the National Service Act. under which liability ceases at 26.
Deferments, 1950
7.
asked the Minister of Labour the number of men deferred for National Service in 1950; the number exempted on medical grounds and on other grounds in that year; and the number of men deferred since the passing of the Act who have not been called up on the expiry of their deferment.
The number deferred in 1950 was about 110,000: some of these deferments expired before the end of the year. The number found to be medically unfit was about 51,000. All men medically fit for service are called up on expiry of their deferment.
Is it the intention of the Minister to review the working of the National Service Acts in order to increase its effect on the avaliability of manpower for defence?
We are doing that all the time.
But not enough.
Employment
Middle-Aged Workers (Retention)
5.
asked the Minister of Labour whether, having regard to the national importance of the optimum use of manpower, he will reconsider the policy of discharging first those men in the older groups when pensionable and instead retain middle-aged persons in employment so long as they continue to give good service.
My policy is to encourage the retention of workers so long as they are fit and willing to work. This policy was endorsed by the National Joint Advisory Council representing both sides of industry in 1948 and again at its meeting a week ago.
Is the Minister aware that there is great waste of manpower at present owing to the inability of middle-aged men to obtain suitable employment? Is he also aware that today many men are finding it very hard to live on their pensions owing to the high cost of living?
The last part of that supplementary question is another issue entirely. I am aware that there is some difficulty about the ability of men over 50 years of age to obtain employment. We are now giving this matter special attention, but I could not discern from the obscurity of the Question if that is what the hon. Member had in mind.
Trends (Information)
11.
asked the Minister of Labour what machinery exists in his Department for considering probable future trends in employment; and how far he takes any steps to keep himself informed of threats of unusual unemployment in particular industries such as may be expected from coal difficulties.
A specific responsibility rests on regional and local offices of my Department to obtain and to report regularly information on trends in employment which is obtained from local statistics and close contacts with industry. Nationally my Department is in constant consultation with other Departments in regard to all matters which may affect employment trends, including such short-term problems as the shortage of coal.
Would the information of the right hon. Gentleman under these arrangements, keep him informed of the extent to which there may be redundancy among railway men, owing to the large number of cuts which have been announced in train services? If I put down a specific Question to the right hon. Gentleman with regard to the number, would he be able to answer it?
If the hon. and learned Member will put a Question on the Order Paper I will do my utmost to answer it, but we hope that the cutting down of the train services will be only temporary.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that redundancy in British transport, particularly on the railways, has been avoided by the utilisation on coal services of men made redundant on passenger services?
Engineers And Shipbuilders (Wages Agreement)
12.
asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware of the effect on output of the National Arbitration Tribunal's award on the claim made on 30th November, 1949, by the Confederation of Engineering and Shipbuilding Trades; and what action does he intend taking.
15.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction which exists in regard to the recent award in the engineering industry and to the fact that under its terms a large majority of engineers are excluded from its benefit; and what steps he proposes to take to remedy this matter.
I would first point out that the National Arbitration Tribunal refrained from making an award and that the resultant settlement was embodied in a National Wages Agreement to which both sides of the industry were parties. In general, the Agreement has been well received but in a few areas, particularly the Manchester area, some dissatisfaction has been expressed that pieceworkers already earning above the new minimum will not benefit. This dissatisfaction has shown itself by a reversion to day work and an embargo on overtime by piece-workers in a number of engineering establishments.
On Monday last, however, the national organisations concerned considered the position at a joint conference and it was agreed that there should be a resumption of piece-work and overtime working so that any question of low piece-work earnings might be reviewed under the procedure agreement in the industry. I must stress the importance and urgency of securing return to normal working and dealing with any question arising in a constitutional manner. It would not be proper for my Department to intervene.
Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that this award is contained in a document of the greatest possible complexity, something after the style of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, which has never been clearly understood? There is practically nothing given to the pieceworkers at all and a great number of day workers are excluded. Would he accept our appreciation of the steps which have been taken, and of the fact that longer negotiations in specialised circumstances and specialised engineering industries are apparently to take place and our hope that they will put an end to the grievances?
We all hope it will, but I would again remind the House that it is not an award, it is an agreement; and it is complex because the engineering industry is very complex.
Wages (Statistics)
13.
asked the Minister of Labour the percentage increase of wages received in 1950 over 1914 for the average in industry; in local government; for labourers in engineering; and for craftsmen in engineering, respectively.
I am having the available information extracted and will write to my hon. Friend.
Dock Strike, North-West Area
16.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he will make a statement concerning the labour troubles in connection with the work for the Festival of Britain.
I assume the hon. Member is referring to a strike of some electricians employed on the South Bank site. The dispute arises from a claim for extra payment to take account of the special circumstances of the work in connection with the Festival. This claim was under discussion between the employers' organisation and the trade union. My officers are in close touch with the parties and I would ask to be excused for the moment from making any further statement.
18.
asked the Minister of Labour if his attention has been drawn to the strike of dockers on Mersey- side organised by the port workers committee; if he will cause an immediate investigation to be made into the cause of the stoppage; and if, in the meanwhile, he will make a statement.
The position on Merseyside and at Manchester shows some improvement this morning and it is clear that the very extensive efforts to involve other ports have completely failed. It is not my present intention to institute any special investigation.
While the whole House will be glad of the improvement that has taken place, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he realises that the 9,000 dockers of Merseyside have been grossly deceived by the port workers committee which is a Communist inspired organisation? Will he ask his right hon Friend the Home Secretary to publish the information in his possession about that organisation?
It is because the London dock men were grossly deceived in 1949 that the same deceivers are finding it so difficult to get them out today. I hope that the same illumination will dawn upon Merseyside.
Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that there is no interference now in Merseyside with central food supplies as a result of this stoppage?
I understand that that is the position put up to date. We hope that the strike will be over soon.
Cost Of Living (Advisory Committee)
9.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he is now in a position to announce the names of the members of the Cost of Living Advisory Committee, which is to be called together again.
I will, with the hon. Member's permission circulate the names of the Committee in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Can the Minister say how many women have been appointed to the Committee, and whether the Committee will now hold regular meetings?
There is at least one woman, and I hope that the Committee will hold regular meetings.
Will the Minister also circulate the qualifications of these persons, and in particular see whether any one of them represents what might be called the ex-Service man's point of view, in view of the desirability of carrying all sections of the community with him?
The hon. Member will find that the qualifications of the members are stated in the circulated reply, and that they come from a very wide sector of the population. I must say that I do not see that ex-Service men in particular have any special interest in this matter.
Following are the names:
Sir Robert M. Gould, C.B., Chief Industrial Commissioner, Ministry of Labour and National Service ( Chairman).
Professor R. G. D. Allen, O.B.E., Professor of Statistics, London University.
Dr, A. B. Badger, representing the nationalised industries.
Mrs. T. Cazalet-Keir.
Mr. Lincoln Evans, C.B.E., representing the Trades Union Congress.
Mr. J. A. Hough, representing the Cooperative Movement.
Sir Frederick Leggett, C.B.
Mr. A. H. Mathias, C.B.E., representing the Retail Distributive Trades Conference.
Mr. E. C. Ramsbottom, C.B.E., representing the British Employers' Confederation.
Mr. J. R. N. Stone, C.B.E., Director of Department of Applied Economics, Cambridge.
Miss D. S. Tomkinson, O.B.E., J.P., representing the National Federation of Women's Institutes.
Mr. W. Allen, M.B.E., Assistant Secretary, Ministry of Labour and National Insurance, Northern Ireland.
Mr. M. Compton, Director of Statistics and Intelligence, Ministry of Food.
Mr. J. M. Fearn, Economic Adviser, Scottish Office.
Mr. R. F. Fowler, C.B.E., Director of Statistics, Ministry of Labour and National Service.
Mr. C. T. Saunders, Assistant Secretary, Central Statistical Office.
Mr. J. Stafford, Director of Statistics, Board of Trade.
Index Of Retail Prices
20.
asked the Minister of Labour if he will now include tinned meats of all kinds in the items covered by the cost-of-living index.
The Cost of Living Advisory Committee is at present meeting to consider the possible revision of the present Interim Index of Retail Prices. I must, therefore, ask the hon. Member to await the results of the Committee's deliberations.
Does not the Minister agree that, in view of the large numbers of people who now have to buy tinned meat to eke out the microscopic meat ration, it is totally unrepresentative in a cost-of-living index not to include the cost of this item?
I am sure that the Committee will take the hon. Member's observations into consideration.
Education
Grammar School, Erith
21.
asked the Minister of Education if the request of the North-West Kent Divisional Executive for 60 places for girls at the new grammar school accommodation at The Oaks, Erith, by August, 1951; has received the necessary approval.
No formal proposal has yet reached me, but I understand that the local education authority propose to submit one shortly.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the information he has given will cause great satisfaction in a district which feels that it is not getting a square deal in the matter of grammar school accommodation?
Dentists
22.
asked the Minister of Education if he is yet in a position to make a statement regarding salaries for school dental officers; or what steps he proposes to take to bring the present negotiations to a conclusion without further delay.
I understand that at their meeting on 31st January last, the Dental Whitley Council reached a substantial measure of agreement and that they hope to make an announcement as soon as a number of associated details have been settled.
As, in building up the health of the nation, the school dental service developed under successive Conservative Governments played an important and vital role, is not it high time that a decision was reached on this matter?
That is why I am most anxious that the Council should be allowed to get on with it.
37.
asked the Minister of Education whether dentists employed by local education authorities are permitted to indulge in private practice.
This is a matter for the local education authority, and I have no information as to the extent to which school dental officers also undertake private practice.
Would it be possible to get more information about the recommendation from the Kent Education Committee, because it would be interesting to know whether their example is being widely followed throughout the country?
I will make some inquiries.
Scholarships (Examinations)
23.
asked the Minister of Education whether the first M.B. examination will be regarded as the equivalent of the Higher School Certificate by county education committees in considering awards for degree courses.
Mr. Tomlinson : It is within the discretion of local education authorities to award scholarships to candidates on the examination for the first M.B.. and a number of authorities do so.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give his own opinion about the relative merits of these two examinations?
As the educational requirements for this examination are quite as high as those for the Higher School Certificate examination, would not my right hon. Friend make representations to the authorities to treat their students on a more uniform basis?
The School and Higher School Certificate examinations were held for the last time last year. Those examinations will not be available this year.
Teachers' Allowances
24.
asked the Minister of Education whether he has yet received the recommendations of the Burnham Committee on the subject of the granting of London allowance to teachers working in schools within the Metropolitan Police district but not at present in receipt of this allowance.
The committee have proposed that a tribunal of independent persons should consider the question of "London Area" and territorial allowances and make recommendations. They have also recommended that the present provisions should, meanwhile. continue without change.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when that tribunal will sit?
No, I cannot.
Students' Grants
25.
asked the Minister of Education what results have followed from his representations to local education authorities concerning the inequalities of the present grant system.
30.
asked the Minister of Education what progress he has so far made in inducing local education authorities to accept uniform standards for making grants to students at universities.
About 80 per cent. of the local education authorities have adopted, either wholly or in part, the standard figures of maintenance and financial principles set out in Administrative Memorandum No. 332, or have undertaken to do so for the academic year 1951–52.
While thanking the Minister for that encouraging reply, may I ask whether he can say when the other 20 per cent. of local authorities will come into line?
No, I could not; but I intend to review the position shortly.
Would my right hon. Friend agree that the extent of a student grant should not depend upon the place of residence of the student, and that a student born in one area should not have his position prejudiced in relation to students of another area?
Will my right hon. Friend try to bring the other 20 per cent. into line by eliminating meanness and not by restricting generosity?
I have never restricted generosity in this matter; but I would point out that the autonomy of the local authorities is a consideration which must be kept in mind.
Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that, between the 80 per cent. of authorities who have adopted a uniform standard, there is something amounting to a system of reciprocity treaties, so that difficulties do not intervene when children, or their parents, are moved from one area to another in the middle of a course?
Generally speaking. there is agreement in that direction.
Teachers' Refresher Courses
26.
asked the Minister of Education whether he is aware of the varying policies of local education authorities with regard to financial assistance for teachers attending recognised refresher courses; and what action he proposes to take.
I attach importance to refresher courses, and hope that local education authorities will assist teachers to attend them, according to their need. The authorities are well aware of my attitude, and I pay grant on reasonable expenditure incurred in assisting teachers to attend courses. But such assistance is rightly left to the discretion of the authorities.
Will my right hon. Friend try to get the same result on this matter as that which he so successfully achieved in connection with the previous question?
The same people, with the Minister's assent, have drafted a circular appealing for the same response.
School Books And Stationery
27.
asked the Minister of Education whether, in view of the increased cost of school books and stationery, he will advise local education authorities to increase the expenditure allowance to schools.
No, Sir. I consider that the local education authorities can be relied upon to ensure a satisfactory supply of books and stationery to the schools.
Sub-Normal Children
28.
asked the Minister of Education what steps he proposes taking to provide adequate school space for mentally retarded children.
It is my policy to encourage local education authorities to make increased special school provision for educationally sub-normal children as quickly as possible within the limits of my resources.
Will the right hon. Gentleman get in touch with the appropriate authority and ask for a report on the conditions in the borough of Gillingham, which are very bad indeed? Will he endeavour to do something about it?
I will look into that matter.
Can my right hon. Friend give an estimate of the number of children who are not mentally retarded for whom there is a lack of school places at present?
Village Schools
29.
asked the Minister of Education whether, in view of the many instances where children have long distances to go to school, and the detrimental effect on village community life, he will now reconsider the general policy of closing village schools.
I have laid down no such policy. Under Section 13 of the Education Act, 1944, a proposal by a local education authority to cease to maintain a school involves the issue of public notices, with the possibility of an appeal to me. I should not approve any such proposal unless, after considering all the circumstances, and, in particular, the best interests of the children, I was satisfied that the proposal was justified.
Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that, in rural areas like the East Riding of Yorkshire, where a large number of village schools have been closed, it is not only the distance that children have to travel to new schools but a question of the danger from the traffic on country roads where there are no footpaths? Will he also bear in mind the position of Low Cattan, about which I have sent him some particulars and about which I propose to send him further information?
All these things are taken into consideration as and when a decision is taken. I would point out to the hon. Member that, in the case of the school he has mentioned, and particulars of which he sent me, and which was closed in 1928, a good deal of revision would be needed before I altered my opinion in that connection.
School Children (Half Fares)
31.
asked the Minister of Education if he will consult with the authorities concerned, with a view to arranging to raise the half-fare privilege on all public transport for children up to 15 years of age on educational journeys.
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Hastings (Mr. Cooper-Key) on 27th July last.
I have not seen that reply. Does it extend to school children, not only on educational journeys, but other journeys, provided that they are under the age of 15?
I am not concerned with jounrneys other than educational journeys.
School Punishment, Flixton
32.
asked the Minister of Education whether his attention has been called to the case of Mr. P. I. Crashley, of Flixton, who caned the whole class of 32 children because he was unable to discover who was the author of a childish misdemeanour; whether such punishment is in accordance with the regulations approved by him; and what steps he is taking to prevent a recurrence of such an incident.
I have seen reports of this incident in the Press. Regulations about corporal punishment are made by local education and school authorities, and are not subject to my approval. I see no reason to intervene in this matter.
Does my right hon. Friend consider that a sense of British justice is being inculcated in this school, when one man, constituting himself judge, jury and executioner, punishes 31 innocent children in a way that is prohibited in the case of grown-ups, without censure and without reprimand?
Was this gentleman under the impression that he was carrying out the Socialist policy of fair shares for all?
Will my right hon. Friend, without seeking to intervene in matters that are properly the concern of the local educational authority, see whether the facts do not disclose a case for inquiry as to whether this gentleman is fit to have anything to do with school children?
Displaced Pupils (Grants)
34.
asked the Minister of Education if he is prepared to consider the enlargement of the scope of Section 104 (2 a) of the Education Act, 1944, so as to include pupils whose parents have been compulsorily removed from their former homes owing to demolition of property due to war damage, slum clearance or other action outside their control.
This would involve an amendment of the provision of the 1944 Act relating to voluntary schools, and raises issues which cannot be dealt with in the scope of a Question and answer.
Teachers' Salaries
35.
asked the Minister of Education when he proposes officially to inform the House of his attitude towards the Burnham Committee's report and of his proposals for its implementation.
I have informed the Chairman of the Burnham Committee that the new salary scales recommended for teachers in primary and secondary schools, as submitted to me in an outline statement, are such as I shall be able to approve. Final approval of the scales and arrangements for their implementation must await the submission of the proposals in detail.
Will the Minister assure the House that he appreciates the importance of taking every opportunity to explain to people the reasons why the rising costs of education are necessary and inevitable? Does he not realise the anxiety which these rising costs have evoked, and the importance of retaining the good will of ratepayers and local authorities?
I will read that supplementary question in HANSARD tomorrow, and consider it.
School, Balham (Traffic)
36.
asked the Minister of Education whether he is aware of the traffic dangers to children when leaving the Cavendish Road School, Balham: and if he will cause inquiries to be made with a view to crush barriers being erected outside the school entrance which will prevent children risking injury by dashing across the road when leaving school.
I am informed by the local education authority that there is police supervision for children attending the school who need to cross Cavendish Road, and that all children leave the school by entrances in Hydthorpe Road, where the volume of traffic is not at present such as would justify special supervision or the erection of crush barriers.
Would the Minister have another look at this matter, because I think his information is not quite full enough? Hydthorpe Road is a dangerous road and—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."] Would it not be better to try to prevent possible danger to children in this district, rather than wait until someone is seriously injured?
The London County Council can put up these crush barriers without my approval, and I prefer to leave this problem to the local education authorities.
Scientific Equipment
38.
asked the Minister of Education whether he is aware of the grave shortage of scientific equipment in many schools, as a result of which pupils are hindered in their examination work; and what steps he is taking to remedy this defect.
I am not aware of any general shortage of scientific equipment, though long delivery periods are quoted for some items.
Has the attention of the right hon. Gentleman been called to a report of the Cambridge University Examination Syndicate, a body of some authority, which is very much alarmed about this problem?
Technological Education
39.
asked the Minister of Education if he has any further statement to make on the future development of higher technological education.
I have nothing to add to the answer which I gave on 25th January to the hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Hollis):
Is the Minister not aware that higher technological education is a factor in the rearmament programme? Would it not be a good idea to press this matter a little more?
Yes, but in the foreword to the report published about this question I promised to give consideration to the recommendations that were made, and also to the comments of people who were asked to make observations upon them.
British War Graves, South Africa
40.
asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations whether he has now received a reply to his communication to the United Kingdom High Commissioner in the Union of South Africa on the neglected state of the cemeteries and graves of Imperial troops who died in the South African War; and what arrangements are now being made for the proper maintenance of these cemeteries and graves.
The Union authorities have assured the High Commissioner that, whenever specific cases of neglect are brought to notice, steps will be taken through the existing organisations to put things in order.
Will the Prime Minister bear in mind that, in July, he was pressed on many sides about the very serious neglect of these cemeteries? Will he point this out to the Union of South Africa and ask them to take the necessary action?
The High Commissioner has taken up this matter. It is not a matter for the Union Government, but the responsibility of provincial administrators in regard to the maintenance work, and also of the South African Soldiers' Graves Association, who administer certain voluntary funds. There is also £8,000 invested with trustees in the Orange Free State. The hon. Member will therefore see that there are a large number of authorities. The High Commissioner has undertaken to look into the matter.
Banks, Irish Republic (Strike)
41.
asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations whether he is aware of the hardship caused to British shareholders and depositors in Irish banks by their prolonged closing and whether he will make representations to the Irish Government.
I am aware of the difficulties caused by the strike. I do not, however, think that this is a matter on which the United Kingdom Government can properly make representations.
Is the Prime Minister aware that some Irish bank dividends, upon which a number of people in the United Kingdom depend for their existence, are several weeks overdue?
South-West Africa (Lord Hailey's Speech)
42.
asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if the recent official pronouncement by Lord Hailey criticising the Trusteeship Council and saying that South-West Africa seems a natural part of the Union was made with his approval.
No, Sir. The remarks referred to in the Question were an expression of Lord Hailey's personal view, as he himself made clear, according to the report which I have seen. Lord Hailey's task in South Africa is to prepare a report for His Majesty's Government on the working of the native authority system in Basutoland, the Bechuanaland Protectorate and Swaziland.
In view of the fact that these remarks are made by someone who is travelling at the request of the Government, and that they have been widely circulated in the South African Survey, will the Prime Minister make it clear that the policy of the Government remains unaltered and repudiate the remarks of Lord Hailey?
The policy of the Government remains the same. It was made perfectly clear that the remarks were made by Lord Hailey in his personal capacity. He is undertaking an inquiry, but is not really a State servant.
Trade And Commerce
Agricultural Machinery (Import Duties)
43.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will reduce the import duties on agricultural and horticultural machinery to enable farmers with limited capital to purchase equipment which will cause agricultural labour to produce bigger results.
I am always prepared to consider representations from users of imported goods for variations in the rates of import duties. In considering such representations I must, of course, have regard to the interests of United Kingdom industries concerned with the production of similar goods.
As a good many of these agricultural implements are not made in England, would the Minister see whether we can get better results from the labour we put into our agriculture?
There are not many not made in some parts of the United Kingdom, but if there are special cases I will certainly look at them.
Will the Minister also look into the question of spares and replacements for that type of equipment?
The answer I have given covers spares.
Will the Minister undertake to make steel available to British manufacturers of these products so that they may supply the British market?
Grapefruit (Empire Preference)
44.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will maintain the Empire Preference on grapefruit when this is discussed at the Torquay Conference, in order to safeguard the West Indian producer.
To give undertakings about particular products in relation to negotiations which are in progress would prejudice the negotiations. I regret, therefore. that I cannot give an undertaking of the kind requested, but I can assure the hon. Member that it is our practice to consult colonial Governments on matters arising in these negotiations which might affect colonial interests, and full consideration is given to their views.
Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the growers, rather like the producers of Australian wine, may well face ruin if these margins of preference are whittled away, and will he not, generally speaking, accept responsibility for the welfare of colonial growers and for the retention of Imperial Preference for our own people?
The fullest weight will be given to all the considerations which bear on this question. Certainly, in these negotiations my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and my own Department are accepting the fullest possible responsibility for that aspect.
Before my right hon. Friend even considers the surrender of any preference protecting the colonial countries in this matter, would he take into account the action taken by the American Government to subsidise the export of some of these products, and say whether that is in accordance with the proposals made at Torquay?
Due weight will be given to the question of subsidies in any negotiations on this question.
When the colonial Governments are consulted will the Minister make sure that they consult the producing interests in their territories?
I am quite sure that in readiness for these negotiations we have the fullest possible views of all concerned.
In considering all the various interests, will my right hon. Friend keep in mind the fact that there are many people in this country who would like to consume grapefruit, and would like to get supplies at a reasonable price?
Migration (Assisted Passages)
45.
asked the Prime Minister it further discussions with the Australian Government have resulted in agreement on the assistance to be given to British families and individuals migrating to Australia; and if similar arrangements are being made with New Zealand, Canada and South Africa.
Discussions with the Australian Government on the question of the extension of the Assisted Passage Agreement have not yet been completed. No proposals for entering into similar arrangements have been received from the other Governments mentioned.
Will the Prime Minister assure the House that this delay will not interfere with the flow of families and individuals who want to go to Australia after March when the present agreement expires. Will he consider the desirability of entering into discussions with the other Dominions, to ensure that people who want to go to them can get assistance?
We shall discuss this matter with Mr. Holt, the Australian Minister of Immigration, who will be visiting this country in March. Towards the close of the war, we discussed the matter with other Commonwealth Governments, but the only one prepared to participate in a joint scheme at that time was the Australian Government. We do, of course, keep a close watch on all these things.
House Building, Scotland (Administration)
46.
asked the Prime Minister if, in view of the fact that house building operations in England and Wales have now been placed under control of the Minister of Local Government and Planning, he is now prepared to consider the feasibility of establishing a Ministry of Building in Scotland which will take over and co-ordinate the functions at present carried out by the Department of Health and the Ministry of Works so far as housing and all other building work is concerned.
No, Sir. Before the recent transfer of functions in England and Wales, I considered with the Secretary of State for Scotland the position in Scotland and decided against any redistribution of functions. In Scotland, the responsibility for housing, local government and planning is already vested in the Secretary of State.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the proposals contained in this Question have the full support of the organised Labour movement and other organisations in Scotland, and that his reply will cause extreme dissatisfaction?
Is the Prime Minister aware that the plight of the homeless in Scotland is so acute that they feel very strongly that political prejudices should not rule in this matter? Will he instruct the Secretary of State to rule out political prejudice in regard to the problems of the homeless in Scotland?
There is no question of political prejudice in this matter; it is a question of administration. The real difficulty is the well-known shortage of materials and the availability of labour. It is very largely a matter for local authorities.
Will my right hon. Friend have another look at this question and consider the advisability of having some form of inquiry into the position, for, quite frankly, the United Kingdom Department, which operates special agencies in Scotland, is not meeting the position?
War Material (Sales And Transfers)
47.
asked the Prime Minister what number of jet aeroplanes, Centurion tanks and naval warships have been given or sold to Empire and foreign countries during 1950.
As regards jet aircraft and Centurion tanks, I would refer the hon. Member to replies given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence to Questions on 29th November, to which I have nothing to add. Eleven war vessels of various types were sold to Commonwealth and foreign countries during 1950.
I think there is a point of order here. Mr. Speaker. The Prime Minister is adopting a practice which has been very often followed in the past by Ministers when they refer questioners to answers already given on a previous Question by another Minister. According to my information, Ministers have always got the copies in front of them, and, that being so, why should it not be possible for the Minister to give the previous answer so that the hon. Member asking the Question may be able to relate it to his specific Question straight away and frame a supplementary question?
The hon. and gallant Member has been long enough in this House to realise that no point of order arises if he happens to be dissatisfied with an answer he gets from a Minister.
I should not, perhaps, have called it a point of order, Mr. Speaker, but it has become an accepted tradition in the House during this Parliament for everything to be called a point of order, whether it is or not. However, J would like to ask the Prime Minister whether the Chiefs of Staff were consulted about these inexplicable transactions before they were carried through, and whether they approved?
The hon. and gallant Gentleman knows quite well that, in all matters, Ministers must take responsibility for decisions made. The responsibility is not passed on to the Chiefs of Staff. But, naturally in all these matters, full consideration is given to the views of professional advisers.
The hon. and gallant Member said just now what I thought was one of the wisest things he has said for a long time, namely, that hon. Members are in the habit of saying, "On a point of order" when they want to ask a supplementary which is not a point of order. That was something well worth saying.
In view of recent world events, does not the Prime Minister now agree that it was a most feckless piece of irresponsibility to have sold this valuable equipment overseas?
I do not know to what the hon. Member is referring.
Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us how much it will cost in dollars to replace with American aeroplanes the British ones which the Government permitted to be sold abroad? Can he work it out?
Festival Of Britain
Catering
48.
asked the Lord President of the Council what methods were used in selecting five small firms to undertake the catering for the South Bank Exhibition: and why the Susan Throstle Café, Bexhill, was chosen.
The catering concessions available in the South Bank Exhibition were advertised in the catering trade Press. Forty firms submitted tenders. The concessionaires were then chosen from a short list of those which the Festival Office considered could undertake the work satisfactorily. I see no reason why competent firms should be disqualified merely because they are small, but in fact one of the successful tenderers controls 16 catering establishments in the north of England and another has large catering concessions in the south.
As regards the second part of the Question, the firm specifically mentioned has a concession for a restaurant seating 200 people, and is regarded as fully qualified to operate such a concession.Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the public are best served by the lowest costs, and that these are achieved by using firms in the area of the Exhibition? Would he not agree that lower distribution and managerial costs must be reflected in the price of the product?
No, I do not think that that follows. These concessions were advertised, and I think it would be quite wrong if we said that because the Exhibition is in London, only London firms would be considered. If the bias of the Question is in favour of the elimination of the little man, I can only say that is a sentiment which does not appeal to the Labour Party.
Would the Lord President tell us whether the Refreshment Department of the House of Commons put in a tender?
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Festival committee first approached the biggest caterers in London, that their terms were unacceptable and that, with regret, the committee then resorted to advertising amongst the smaller firms?
I resisted any prejudice against the north, and I must now resist any prejudice against London.
Soft Drink Supplies
49.
asked the Lord President of the Council whether the firms in the soft drinks industry were given the opportunity to tender for supplies to the Festival of Britain before one firm was given the monopoly.
I assume that the Question relates to the South Bank Exhibition. No monopoly has been given by the Festival Office. The catering concessionaires make their own arrangements for supplies, including soft drinks. The Festival Office is at present considering tenders for ice-cream kiosks in the South Bank where soft drinks will also be sold, but the successful concessionaires will make their own arrangements for supplies of soft drinks.
Agriculture
Marginal Land, East Lancashire
50.
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether the area of land lying south of Skipton and running through East Lancashire was included in the survey of marginal land recently made by his Department.
Yes, Sir.
Rabbits
51.
asked the Minister of Agriculture, as gassing rabbits makes them unsuitable for human consumption, what alternative methods of killing this pest he proposes to enable them to he used for food
The onus of destroying rabbits rests with owners and occupiers of land and they are at liberty to use any legal method of destruction. When rabbit destruction is carried out by county agricultural executive committees it is the normal practice first to trap or ferret and then follow up by gassing any residual breeding stock.
In view of the rather small meat ration we have today, would the Minister consider recommendations that he should approve of other methods to destroy this pest?
We desire to catch as many rabbits alive as possible, but we must make doubly sure that the breeding stocks are disposed of, too.
In view of the great importance of getting rid of the Government, would the Minister place particulars in the Library?
Horses (Transport)
55.
asked the Minister of Agriculture if his attention has been called to cases of cruelty to horses in transport to slaughter-houses by overcrowding in lorries, etc.; and if he will introduce legislation to make the employees concerned responsible for reasonable care and attention being given to the animals in question during transit as well as at other times.
It is already an offence under the Protection of Animals Acts for any person, by omitting to do any act, to cause any unnecessary suffering to animals, and in the case recently reported convictions were obtained against the two employees concerned. I propose to make specific provisions about overcrowding, amongst other things, in the order which I am about to make dealing with the transit of horses by road and rail.
Pigs And Poultry (Feedingstuffs)
61.
asked the Minister of Agriculture why, in view of the necessity to strengthen our defences and bring them up to date, he continues to issue feeding-stuffs for pigs and poultry on the 1939 basis.
Revised arrangements for the rationing of feedingstuffs for pigs and poultry were introduced in 1948 in order to permit new producers of these classes of stock to be able to make a start and also to encourage deliveries of fat pigs and eggs to bacon factories and packing stations respectively. It would, however, have caused serious hardship to many old-established producers as well as interruption of production if the 1939 basis had not been concurrently continued for those for whom it is the more favourable.
Is not the Minister aware that there are large numbers of new entrants to the industry, particularly disabled ex-Service men who find it impossible to start keeping pigs and poultry and that if they were allowed to do so they would make a considerable contribution towards our food supplies at present?
Forestry
Llandovery Area
56.
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will give further details of his survey of small woodlands in parts of Wales, sometimes known as the Llandovery Scheme.
The Forestry Commission have been urging woodland owners in the Llandovery area to bring their woodlands into full production. Owners have been advised on the right treatment for their woodlands and have been given details of the dedication scheme and other schemes of assistance, and the Forestry Commission are trying to persuade them either to undertake the work themselves or to dispose of their land to the Commission. Five thousand four hundred and ninety-seven acres are involved, in 186 ownerships, and so far 37 owners have agreed to dispose of their properties—totalling 897 acres of woodlands—to the Commission. The other owners are still considering the matter.
Is not one of the objects of this survey to persuade the small occupiers, in the main, to sell part of their land to the Forestry Commission? Is it intended to carry out any form of close survey over the whole country?
As I have already explained, the object is to advise woodland owners of the best means of production in these regions and to encourage them either to do the work themselves or to sell the land to the Forestry Commission, so that the best use can be made of it.
Would the Minister answer the second part of my Question?
Poplars (Planting)
57.
asked the Minister of Agriculture how many copies of Leaflet No. 27, Poplar Planting, were originally printed; when it went out of print; and when a new edition will be available.
The first print of the leaflet was of 9,000 copies in August, 1948, and a further 2,000 copies have since been printed. Stocks were exhausted on 31st July, 1950, a revised edition is expected to be on sale next Monday.
Is the Minister aware that this extremely well-produced leaflet went out of print at almost exactly the same time as he launched the scheme to encourage the planting of poplars last year and offered a subsidy for it? Does he think that good planning?
Yes, we found that there were more trees which could be included in the next edition.
Floods, River Irwell (Grant)
59.
asked the Minister of Agriculture what grant his Department proposes to make towards the cost of the measures necessary to prevent a recurrence of the flooding of the River Irwell that took place in 1946, in view of the fact that the Salford Corporation have been called upon to contribute £23,000, equal to a 6d. rate, towards the cost.
I have reconsidered this matter and, in all the circumstances, am prepared to agree, without prejudice to the question of grant on future schemes, that a grant at the rate of 15 per cent. towards the cost of the current scheme should be made to the Rivers Mersey and Irwell Catchment Board.
Will the Minister have another look at this matter and receive a deputation from the Corporation to consider the question with regard to the scheme that is to cost £70,000, with no grant from the Government at all?
I understand that the catchment board have undertaken to make a very large contribution towards it. Therefore, the grant from the catchment board, the grant from the local authority and a Government grant of 15 per cent. will cover the estimated cost of £70,000.
Is that towards the larger scheme costing over £750,000, or the present scheme of £70,000?
This refers only to the scheme that may prevent flooding of private dwellings and not to the larger scheme.
Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter at the first opportunity on the Adjournment.
Carlton House Terrace
60.
asked the Minister of Agriculture whether the Commissioners of Crown Lands were consulted about the proposal to add extra storeys to Carlton House Terrace and convert it into a new Foreign Office; and what reply they gave.
Yes, Sir; the fullest consultation between the Commissioners of Crown Lands and the Ministry of Works has taken place since the inception of the scheme. The architect was instructed to prepare his plans on the basis suggested in the report of the Royal Fine Art Commission to the Commissioners of Crown Lands in 1945 and the Commissioners approved the plans for submission to the Royal Fine Art Commission in 1948.
When the Royal Fine Art Commission were asked about this, were they instructed that a certain capacity must be provided so that they had not the alternative of approving an improved design?
They were not instructed on those lines at all.
National Finance
Post-War Credits
62.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will consider an arrangement whereby holders of post-war credits may commute their expectations for a proportionately reduced cash payment.