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Commons Chamber

Volume 484: debated on Wednesday 21 February 1951

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House Of Commons

Wednesday, 21st February, 1951

The House met at Half past Two o'Clock

Prayers

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

Oral Answers To Questions

British Officials, Warsaw (Withdrawal)

1.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will make a statement on the official request of the Polish Government that certain members of the British Embassy should be withdrawn from Warsaw: and what were the charges brought against them by the Polish Government.

In a Note dated 18th December, 1950, the Polish Government demanded the withdrawal from Poland within three days of His Majesty's Vice-Consul at Gdansk, Colonel R. Hazell, and a Second Secretary at His Majesty's Embassy at Warsaw, Mr. E. Gilbert. It was alleged that evidence given at the trial in Warsaw of Group Captain Turner, a former Air Attaché at His Majesty's Embassy, had shown these two British officials to have been engaged in activities constituting an abuse of diplomatic and consular privileges. His Majesty's Government had no option but to comply with the Polish demand. In rejecting as unfounded the charges brought against Colonel Hazell and Mr. Gilbert, His Majesty's Government felt obliged to request as a measure of reprisal, that two members of the Polish Mission in London be recalled within three days.

Was not the Polish request based entirely upon the four hours' evidence given by this gentleman, Claude Henry Turner? How was it that a British Air Attaché came into open court and gave such amazing evidence against these British officials?

As I think the hon. Gentleman is aware the Air Attaché was accused of abducting a Polish woman on board ship to bring her to England, and he was tried in a Polish court. As I have already said, we did not and cannot accept the evidence, but I think that the actual charge was in order.

Did the Polish Government comply with the British Government's request about withdrawing two of their Mission's personnel?

South Tyrol

2.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware of the fact that in South Tyrol nearly 90 per cent. of the persons employed in the civil service, the judiciary, public security, finance, taxation, forestry, the post office and the railways are Italians, most of whom do not even understand the German language: that this is in violation of Annex 4 of the Treaty of Peace with Italy to which His Majesty's Government are a party: and whether he will call the attention of the Italian Government to this breach of the treaty.

As I stated in reply to the hon. Member on 6th December last, I have no reason to suppose that the Italian Government are not carrying out heir obligations in this regard, though progress in some respects may be somewhat slow. I do not consider that the present position reveals a violation of the Treaty of Peace with Italy: representations to the Italian Government would not, therefore, in my opinion be justified.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the figures given in the Question have been scrupulously verified, and that they clearly show a flagrant breach of Article (1, d) of the Treaty, which guaranteed equality of employment for the Tyrolese with the Italians?

I would not agree that it is a breach because progress is being made towards bringing that provision into effect, but it takes time. Perhaps I might remind the hon. Gentleman that we are faced here with a border territory in which there are two populations, differing in race and language. Consequently, there is a very keen nationalist spirit, and good will on both sides is necessary.

Does not the hon. Gentleman remember that the South Tyrolese were subject to maltreatment by Mussolini's Italy for a great many years, and that Hitler's rape of Austria gave them no hope at all? Does he not realise that today they look to Britain to see that the Treaty obligations are maintained so that they can get justice for the first time in many years?

The position of these South Tyrolese is very much better than it was under the Mussolini régime. Conditions in the area are prosperous and are generally satisfactory.

As the Foreign Office say that action at present would be premature, will they keep the situation under observation so that if they thought that action was justified later they could take it?

Yes, Sir, we are doing that. In view of the sincere interest of the hon. Member for Antrim, South (Professor Savory) in this matter, we have received special reports since his last Question.

Middle East

Oil Agreement, Persia

3.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can make a statement about the negotiations between the Government of Iran and the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company.

I presume my hon. Friend is referring to the negotiations in regard to the supplemental oil agreement which was signed by the company and the Persian Government in July, 1949. The agreement was recently presented for ratification to the Persian Parliament which referred it to its oil commission which, after reporting unfavourably on it in general terms, has now been instructed to review the position further.

His Majesty's Government cannot be indifferent to the affairs of this important British interest. The company's present concession is valid until 1993, and His Majesty's Government are confident that Persia will honour her agreement. As to the supplemental oil agreement, His Majesty's Government regard it as fair and reasonable. But, as the matter is under review in Persia, I cannot say more at present except to express the hope that a satisfactory conclusion will soon be reached.

Is it a fact that, in connection with these negotiations, proposals have been made for the nationalisation of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company?

No official proposals of which I am aware have been made either to His Majesty's Government or to the oil company.

Do the Government tender advice to the company in their capacity as principal shareholder or only as the Government?

Treaties

4.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what States in the Middle East Britain is bound by treaty to defend: to what extent conditions are imposed in such treaties as to the efforts to be made by those countries in self-defence: and whether he is satisfied that such conditions are being observed.

As the reply to this Question is necessarily long I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Will the Foreign Office do all they can to settle the existing difficulty between Egypt and Britain, so that we may combine against Communism and keep safe the Suez Canal?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is most concerned about restoring, or maintaining, friendly relations between these countries and peaceful conditions in the whole of the Middle East.

Quite apart from the details which the hon. Gentleman has promised to circulate, can he give an assurance that an effort is being made in this area towards self-defence on the part of the nations concerned?

Yes, Sir. The Government believe that these countries have a lively appreciation of the necessity for strengthening their defences. Within the limits of their economies and avail-abilities they are doing what they can.

Following is the reply:

The United Kingdom has Treaties of Alliance with Egypt, Iraq and Jordan and a Treaty of Mutual Assistance with Turkey. The former provide that if either party becomes involved in war the other will immediately come to her aid in the capacity of an ally. The latter is a tripartite Treaty involving the French Government also, and provides that, in the event of Turkey being attacked by a European Power or in the event of an act of aggression by a European Power leading to a war in the Mediterranean area in which Turkey is involved, the United Kingdom and France will collaborate effectively with Turkey and will lend her all aid and assistance in their power. Turkey is similarly pledged to come to the aid of the United Kingdom and France in the event of an act of aggression by a European Power leading to war in the Mediterranean area in which those two countries are involved. This provision does not, however, oblige Turkey to enter into armed conflict with the Soviet Union if France or the United Kingdom are involved in war with that country.
No conditions are imposed in the Treaty with Turkey as to the efforts to be made by any of its signatories in self-defence. It is, however, well known that Turkey is maintaining her armed forces in a high state of readiness and that their efficiency is steadily being increased. In addition to the general implication that those countries shall maintain their armed forces at a sufficient pitch of efficiency to discharge the obligations incurred, the Treaties with Egypt, Iraq and Jordan oblige them to put certain facilities at the disposal of His Majesty's Forces in time of peace. These facilities relate in the main to communications and transit rights and to the right of the United Kingdom to maintain certain forces in the Canal Zone of Egypt and certain units of the Royal Air Force in Iraq and Jordan. These Treaties also provide for cooperation between the United Kingdom and those countries in the training and equipment of their armed forces. His Majesty's Government are satisfied with the way in which those obligations are being carried out.

Sinai Peninsula

7.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the policy of His Majesty's Government with regard to the southern portion of the Sinai Peninsula, which under the Agreement of 1906 remained part of Turkey and was taken from Turkey by British forces during the 1914–18 war, and has never been formally allocated to Egypt.

The grant of the right to administer this territory was confirmed by a firman issued by the Sultan of Turkey to the Khedive Abbas of Egypt on 8th May, 1892, and was later enshrined in Notes exchanged between His Majesty's Government and the Turkish Government in May, 1906. The eastern frontier of Egypt was never explicitly defined after the. First World War, when Egypt became an independent kingdom and by the Treaty of Lausanne, Turkey renounced all rights and titles to territories lying outside her frontiers. Egypt has, however, been in continuous occupation and possession of South Sinai ever since 1922. No Government has ever contested the fact that Egypt exercises effective sovereignty over this area.

Is it not a fact that this area was taken away by us from Turkey, that it has never been given to Egypt and, therefore, belongs to us as much as to anybody else?

Prior to our taking it away from Turkey, it was administered by Egypt, and continued to be administered by Egypt following the Treaties of Peace after the 1914–18 war.

China (Consulate, Tihwa)

The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:

5. Mr. FITZROY MACLEAN,—TO ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what reply he has received from the Chinese Communist Government to his protest against the ill-treatment and expulsion of His Majesty's Consul-General at Tihwa.

On a point of order. Before this Question is answered, Sir, might I ask whether, in the case of a Government with which we are in diplomatic relations, it is in order to introduce the word, "Communist," or any other word of the kind, between the words, "Chinese" and "Government." If, in fact, that is in order, would it be equally in order to refer, on the Order Paper, to the "Yugoslav Communist Government," the "Spanish Fascist Government" or the "American Capitalist Government"?

I have always understood that the various Governments were Conservative, Liberal, Communist or something else. One surely is entitled to refer to them as such. This is not a point of order as far as I am concerned.

Has it not always been held, Sir, that in relation to Governments with which we maintain diplomatic relations any kind of adverse comment or reflection of that kind is out of order? Questions which make reflections of that kind are normally refused at the Table. I think that you will appreciate the substance of my point, Mr. Speaker, when I say that, if it once were to be allowed in this case, it could be allowed in a wide variety of other circumstances which would be embarrassing to everybody.

I understand that the hon. Member objects to this Question. He says that the word "Communist" must be offensive, but that is not necessarily so. We have had members of that party in this House and, because they belonged to that party, we have always referred to them as Communist Members, and it was not offensive in any way.

I have not made my point quite clear. I am not suggesting that in everybody's eyes the word "Communist" is offensive, though it certainly is in the eyes of some people. What I am suggesting is that, if one uses a comment of this kind in a Question, which can be variously interpreted in various quarters by various people, then the door is open to a wide variety of such Questions, which may constantly cause embarrassment in the House. It is sufficient, if an hon. Member wants to ask a Question about a Government, to talk about the "Chinese Government" or the "Albanian Government" or any other Government. Once one is permitted to put in an adjectival reference of this kind, the rules which the House has always observed begin to be placed in jeopardy.

I have no time to answer that submission. The hon. Member has now wasted five minutes of the time of the House. Mr. Maclean.

The answer to the Question of the hon. Member for Lancaster (Mr. F. Maclean) is "None. Sir."

If the Government are to maintain relations with the Chinese Communists, will they at least take steps to ensure that His Majesty's diplomatic and consular representatives are treated with the respect they deserve?

Yugoslavia

6.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what progress has been made in the discussions between His Majesty's Government and the United States Government regarding joint action in the event of an attack on Yugoslavia.

8.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the increasingly hostile propaganda both by Press and wireless being carried on by Yugoslavia's neighbours and by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics against that country, he will consult with other Atlantic Treaty Powers with a view to a guarantee of assistance if Yugoslavia is attacked.

I have nothing to add to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, in this House on 15th February.

Will my hon. Friend consider what indirect aid we could give to Yugoslavia in the way of materials and parts of war equipment, if her Government should ask for it?

As I think my hon. Friend is aware, we have advanced credits to Yugoslavia for raw materials and other commodities which are being purchased in this country.

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that, if the Yugoslav frontier is violated, it may be as the result of a border incident or fracas, leading to action and counteraction and to something larger eventually in the initial stages of which Russia may not take part? Can we have an assurance that no guarantee on the part of this country will be given to intervene in all circumstances without prior investigation?

I do not think that a major question of policy such as that can be adequately dealt with by Parliamentary question and answer.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that once we gave a similar guarantee to Poland, and that it did not prevent a war but precipitated it?

Can the hon. Gentleman assure the House that His Majesty's Government are in consultation with other associated Governments with regard to measures which we might be able to take if, unfortunately, Yugoslavia were to be attacked?

I would remind the hon. Gentleman that Yugoslavia is a member of the United Nations and that we are, of course, interested in seeing that action which was appropriate to the circumstances should be taken by the United Nations.

Does the hon. Gentleman seriously mean that nothing more than the ordinary action taken through United Nations is being taken, that no particular consultations have taken place?

Will not the hon. Gentleman agree that the warnings of the kind given by his right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour the other day would carry much more weight if we had a proper defence system in the Mediterranean to back them up?

Burma (Supplementary Estimate)

9 and 10.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) how a saving of £700.000 has been made in the Short Term Aid to Burma, Loan, as shown in sub-head N of the Foreign Office Supplementary Estimate, 1951:

(2) how a saving of £878,110 has been made in the compensation payment to the Burmah Oil Company as shown in sub-head M of the Foreign Office Supplementary Estimate, 1951.

No payment at all on account of these services is expected during the current financial year. Part of the anticipated savings on these services is, therefore, included in the Supplementary Estimates, in order to reduce the net sum payable in respect of this Estimate to £10. Parliament will be requested to re-vote in the 1951–52 Estimates the full amounts provided in the original Estimates.

Will the full original sum ultimately be available to the Burma Government and the Burmah Oil Company respectively?

Eritrea (Shifta, Sentences)

11.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many members of Shifta were incarcerated on 30th November, 1950: and how many are now in prison.

Sixty Shifta were serving prison sentences on 30th November, 1950, and 95 on 17th February, 1951.

Foreign Broadcasts

12.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how much money was spent on foreign service broadcasts during 1950: how much has been allocated for the current year: and whether, in view of the urgent need for propaganda to combat Communism, it is intended to increase the amount.

The grant-in-aid to the B.B.C. for overseas services in 1950–51 was £4,685,000. The exact figure for 1951–52 has not yet been finally settled, but is likely to be slightly less.

Is the Under-Secretary aware that it was announced in the Press yesterday that this sum was being reduced? Having regard to the fact that there are, for the first time, faint but hopeful signs of the rot setting in in some of the countries behind the Iron Curtain will he impress upon whoever may be concerned that this sum should be increased this year?

I find it very difficult to understand hon. Members opposite. We are being pressed frequently to reduce expenditure, and here is a case where we are being urged to increase it.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this arm of broadcasting is one of the most vital that we can use in our general defence arrangements, and will he give a less flippant answer to the House to a serious question?

We are very well aware of the value of broadcasting, and consider it part of the defence arm, but, in view of the very heavy expenditure on re-armament which will be encountered during the coming year, we have to cut down where it is possible to do so, and this is one of the matters on which expenditure is being reviewed at the present time.

Has not the hon. Gentleman condemned himself out of his own mouth? If he is to spend money on rearmament, he cannot spend it in any better way than in improving the foreign service of the B.B.C.

As the right hon. Gentleman is aware, not all the expenditure on the B.B.C. can be interpreted as defence expenditure, and it is in those directions where it is not so considered that the reductions will be made.

Will my hon. Friend consider inviting one of the right hon. or hon. Gentlemen opposite, who are so concerned about the matter, to write a letter to the "Daily Express" about it, in view of that newspaper's remarks this morning?

In view of the Government's determined desire to settle our differences with Communist Russia by discussion, does the Under-Secretary not think that these broadcasts should be increased very considerably indeed, as part of the defence programme? Further, if the Government cannot afford to spend enough money, will they cut down on the money spent on the Central Office of Information in propagating their own ideas, which no Minister of the Crown in his right mind would support?

In view of the very unsatisfactory nature of the Under-Secretary's reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter at the first opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what are the objects of the British Broadcasting Corporation's broadcasts to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, to Communist-dominated countries in Europe which are members of the Cominform and to China: when these objects were laid down: and in what way they have been modified since that time.

The objects of the British Broadcasting Corporation's overseas broadcasts result from the licence and agreement of 29th November. 1946, between the Postmaster-General and the British Broadcasting Corporation.

The Corporation shares the view of His Majesty's Government that the national interest requires overseas broadcasts to give a true account of world events, and, in particular, of British policy and practice in both national and international affairs. This criterion applies with especial force to the particular services about which the hon. and gallant Member inquires. There is no document defining the objects of these services. Consultation and collaboration with the appropriate Departments is a continuous and daily process, and account is taken of all developments affecting the national interest.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the best B.B.C. broadcasts to the Communist-dominated countries are those which clearly depart from the directive to which he has referred? In view of the great change in the international situation, does he not think that it is about time that a new directive was given?

It is not a question of a directive, but of consultation between the Departments concerned. To talk in terms of a directive is not accurate.

In arriving at his decision on policy, do the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues take into account the monitoring scripts of all broadcasts that are coming from the Communist countries, particularly in the Far East, where very good guidance as to what is most effective can be obtained?

Yes, Sir. The B.B.C. runs its own monitoring service, which is of inestimable value.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many of the existing B.B.C. broadcasts, such as "Soviet View" and "Soviet Affairs" are, in fact, subtle Communist propaganda, and that there are far too many fellow-travellers in the B.B.C.?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware that no proper machinery exists to coordinate British Broadcasting Corporation's broadcasts to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, to Communist-dominated countries in Europe which are members of the Cominform, to the Baltic States or to China, with United States Government broadcasts to these countries or with broadcasts of Free Europe Radio: and if he will take urgent steps to set up suitable machinery.

No, Sir. His Majesty's Government collaborate closely with the United States Government in matters of broadcasting policy. In this way, there is adequate co-ordination, and no additional machinery is necessary. Radio Free Europe is a non-Governmental organisation with which no direct liaison has been found necessary.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that Radio Free Europe has the open and acknowledged blessing of the State Department? In those circumstances, since it is broadcasting to the Communist-dominated countries of Eastern Europe, how can he possibly say that no liaison is necessary?

As I have said, we collaborate and consult with the United States Government in these matters, but Radio Free Europe is not operated or administered in any way by the United States Government.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that he is wholly misinformed, that some liaison does already take place, and that what I am asking for is proper liaison?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that "The Voice of America" broadcast non-stop for 48 hours and in 28 languages explaining very fully our reply to the Soviet Note? Did we know about that, and what they were saying?

Yes, Sir. I have already explained that we have consultation and collaboration with the State Department, which operates "The Voice of America," and that we have a monitoring service which monitors all broadcasts sent out from all stations.

Has my hon. Friend any evidence to indicate that these broadcasts are making any difference at all?

Is the Minister satisfied, beyond any possible doubt, that there is allocated to the B.B.C. a wholly adequate number of wavelengths for this most vital purpose?

Allocation of wavelengths is made according to the Copenhagen Plan. Unfortunately, under that Plan, we are in difficulties with certain wavelengths which cover Germany, and Eastern Germany in particular, and discussions in that respect are now going on.

In view of the thoroughly unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall compete with my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. Hopkinson) in the ballot for the Motion for the Adjournment, so that I can raise this subject again.

Council Of Europe (Statute)

16.

asked the Secretary of Slate for Foreign Affairs whether he is now able to state the Government's attitude to the proposed protocol for the amendment of the Statute of Europe approved by the Committee of Seven in Paris in December, 1950.

The protocol to which my hon. Friend refers is one of many proposals for the amendment of the Statute of the Council of Europe which are being discussed in Paris this week by a committee of Government officials. All these proposals, which will subsequently have to be considered by the Committee of Ministers, are the subject of confidential discussion between Governments, and I regret that it would not be proper to disclose the attitude of His Majesty's Government to any of them at the present stage.

May we take it that, in view of the far-reaching nature of some of these proposals, no decision will be taken by the Government until the House has been consulted?

I cannot give that undertaking. This matter will go before the Committee of Ministers. The views of the House are known, to a large extent, on the whole question of the Council of Europe, as a result of the debate which we had some weeks ago.

Will my hon. Friend resist with all the means in his power this ingenious attempt at back door pressure?

To the extent that the proposal touches on the whole concept of the Council of Europe and suggests changing the Consultative Assembly from a consultative to a legislative body, the Government are opposed to it.

European Defence (French Plan)

17.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will publish the text of the Pleven plan for a European Army as presented to the Conference on European Defence now taking place in Paris.

No, Sir. It is for the French Government, who have presented the plan, to publish it if they so wish.

As considerable extracts have appeared in the American Press would it not be for the convenience of the House to have a copy in the Library?

It may be that that copy was not marked "Top Secret," as was the copy I have seen.

Korea (38Th Parallel)

18.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to the landing of South Korean marines supported by a naval bombardment from American ships at Wonsan, 88 miles north of the 38th Parallel: and what action His Majesty's Government intend to take in view of their official pronouncement that the 38th Parallel ought not to be crossed again without full consultation with the United Nations, and, in particular, with those Member States whose Forces are fighting in Korea.

Yes, Sir. As stated by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in his speech in the House on 12th February, His Majesty's Government are in close touch with the United States Government on questions connected with the 38th Parallel.

Will the Minister bear in mind that on the last occasion when the United Nations troops reached the 38th Parallel, the offer of negotiations then was prejudiced by the advance permitted to the South Koreans, and will he keep that in mind in view of the landing now of South Koreans north of the 38th Parallel?

I cannot quite accept the interpretation put forward by my hon. Friend of the situation which arose at that time. Before crossing the 38th Parallel, an appeal was made by the United Nations, General MacArthur, and by members of the American and British Governments, for a surrender of the North Koreans or for negotiations, but there was no response.

Is not the question of the crossing of the 38th Parallel at. present governed by the United Nations' Resolution of 7th October, 1950? Does the Prime Minister's statement mean that His Majesty's Government are going to seek a modification of that Resolution?

The United Nations' Resolution stands, but statements have subsequently been made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, to which the hon. and learned Gentleman referred, by President Truman, and by General MacArthur. For the sake of clarity, I would point out that the present position is this. It has been made clear that where, for local tactical reasons, it may be necessary to make small incursions over the 38th Parallel, that would be considered a military matter, but that any substantial crossing of the Parallel would be a political matter on which consultation would take place.

In view of the Prime Minister's recent statement, could my hon. Friend undertake that no British Forces will be allowed, except in the purely tactical sense to which he refers, beyond the 38th Parallel until agreement on the political aspects of the matter has been reached with our Allies?

The operations in Korea are by United Nations Forces, and action taken there will be a matter for the U.N. command representing all the nations providing the troops and materials for those Forces.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether a report which has appeared today that His Majesty's Government have ordered British naval forces to cease operations north of the 38th Parallel is correct or incorrect?

Can my hon. Friend say whether my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister or the Foreign Office were consulted, or even informed, before this action was taken north of the 38th Parallel?

No, Sir. The Press has described this as a raid, and we have no reason to believe that it is anything other than a raid. The troops have since been withdrawn.

West Indies

Antigua (Historic Buildings)

19.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware of the bad state of repair of the historic buildings of Lord Nelson's dockyard at English Harbour, Antigua: and whether he will open a fund or otherwise take steps to make their restoration possible.

I am already in consultation with the Governor about the state of repair of these buildings.

Caribbean Union (Commission)

26.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps have been taken by His Majesty's Government towards implementing the recommendations of the Commission upon the Unification of Public Services in the British Caribbean: and what further steps it is proposed to take.

The report of the Commission has been referred to the Governors of the territories concerned for consideration by the Legislatures. Only the Legislative Council of St. Vincent has yet completed consideration of the report, and it has approved the Commission's recommendations. The implementation of the report depends primarily on the decisions of the Legislatures, and it has been made clear that His Majesty's Government have no wish to prejudge or influence those decisions.

While I agree that this is a matter for the Legislatures, as there seems to be a likelihood of general approval of these reforms cannot the Secretary of State urge the Legislatures to complete their discussions as soon as possible?

I am sure that the hon. Member will appreciate and will agree with me that in a matter of this kind, beyond commending it to their earnest consideration, I do not think we should try to bring pressure upon them to speed up their consideration.

Singapore (Riots)

20.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why military forces were not called upon to quell the riots in Singapore unti11 o'clock on Tuesday morning, 12th December, when the police had completely lost control of the situation early in the afternoon of Monday, 11th December.

I should prefer not to comment on matters which are within the terms of reference of the Commission of Inquiry, and which must, therefore, be regarded as sub judice for the moment.

While appreciating that position, will the Minister give an assurance that if circumstances of a like kind were to arise again in the meantime, the military would be called out without delay?

I prefer not to make any statement upon this matter until the Commission of Inquiry have completed their task and have reported.

Will the Minister say when he expects the inquiry to be completed?

No, Sir, but as the hon. and gallant Gentleman will have seen from Press reports, the Commission have begun their work and are taking evidence in public.

Does the Minister realise that a very prominent Straits paper stated that the loss of life and the damage to property and to the reputation of the Colony were very great? In those circumstances, will the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that adequate steps will immediately be taken to suppress any rising that may occur between now and when the Commission reports?

Cyprus

Tourist Trade

21.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what he is doing to encourage the hotel and tourist trade in Cyprus.

This is primarily the concern of the Cyprus Government, whose recent activities include the provision of increased publicity, the opening of tourist information bureaux in the island, the improvement of access roads to ancient monuments, and radical reform of the hotel law and regulations. In 1950, what is believed to be a record figure of 20,000 tourists visited Cyprus, and it is estimated that they spent some £900,000.

As the tourist traffic is of the greatest importance to Cyprus, will the Minister do everything he can to encourage the building of hotels there, and facilitate British capital going to Cyprus?

Yes, Sir. I think that the change in the regulation to which I have referred makes a notable improvement in that respect.

Is the Minister aware that Cyprus is one of the finest holiday resorts in the world, and that there, at least, there is an abundance of good cheap food and drink?

Is not one of the greatest handicaps to the tourist trade of Cyprus the very heavy cost of getting there by air? Would the right hon. Gentleman consult his colleague the Minister of Civil Aviation, to see whether British European Airways could not, as an experiment, run cheap trips to Cyprus during the tourist season?

Leather Industry

22.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps he is taking to protect the local leather industry in Cyprus.

The Cyprus Government have helped this industry by reducing the import duty on raw hides and skins, and by exempting entirely from import duty all substances used in tanning, except sumac, which is produced locally.

Will the Minister give special consideration to the lowering of the duty on imported hides which are to be used for further manufacture in the island, because that is a matter which is felt very strongly?

That is primarily a matter for the Cyprus Government, but I will take note of it.

Gibraltar

Barbary Apes

23.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is satisfied that the subsistence allowance of 4d. a day paid out of civil funds for the maintenance of each of the Barbary apes at Gibraltar is still sufficient: when the amount was fixed at 4d.; and to what extent the ape population has increased or decreased since the end of the war.

I am informed that the allowance of 4d. a day each for the Gibraltar Barbary apes is still sufficient. The allowance was raised from 3d. to 4d. in 1944. At the end of the war there were 20 apes in Gibraltar: there are now 30, all, I am assured, well fed and in excellent health.

I see from the records that in 1944, when the right hon. Gentleman was Prime Minister, he gave a direction that the establishment should be raised to 24 and maintained at that figure. I am glad to be able to say that we are now above establishment.

Can the Minister say how he reconciles the statement that this amount is sufficient, in view of the fact that it costs 1s. a day to keep an ape in the London Zoo? Further, since these are State apes, borne on Civil Service funds, are they not automatically entitled to a cost-of-living bonus?

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the hon. Gentleman who has asked this Question has not declared his interest?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether these apes have any representation on the people's council which decides how much they get to live on?

Can my right hon. Friend say whether the Government still seriously accepts the legend that while these apes live on Gibraltar, the British will remain there?

In view of the point of order raised a short time ago by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), will the Minister ascertain whether these apes resent being described as "Barbary" apes?

I shall convey to them the keen interest of the House in their welfare.

Evacuees

32.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many evacuees from Gibraltar now remain in this country.

All who applied for repatriation have now returned home, except one family detained here by illness. About 2,000 Gibraltarians have chosen to stay here permanently.

Hong Kong (Oil Exports And Imports)

24.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what quantities of oil have been shipped to China from Hong Kong since 1st October, 1950: and whether steps are being taken to stop further shipments.

There have been no shipments of petroleum oils from Hong Kong to China since 1st October, 1950, except for 308 gallons of petrol in December to repay a loan made by the Chinese authorities to a British salvage vessel. The answer to the last part of the Question is "Yes, Sir."

Is the Minister aware that there is a feeling among oil executives in the United States that the Chinese are getting oil through Hong Kong? Is his answer to be taken as an absolute assertion that there is no possibility of this whatsoever, apart from the minor exception he has mentioned?

Apart from the exception, the answer is as given, that since 1st October, 1950, there have been no shipments.

25.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what quantities of oil were imported into Hong Kong in the months of October, November and December, 1949, and 1950 respectively.

The import figures, by quantity, of petroleum oils into Hong Kong are not yet available in London for the months of October to December, 1950. I am obtaining the figures from Hong Kong and will send them to the hon. Member, with comparative figures for 1949, as soon as possible.

Colonial Students (Hostel, London)

27.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies on what principle Colonial students are selected for admission to the Hans Crescent Hostel: and whether any preference is given to students who are preparing for Government service.

The aim is to produce a balanced student community, widely representative not only of the various Colonial territories but also of the different subjects of study. Priority is given to new arrivals in the United Kingdom, for whom up to half the places are reserved. Thirty-five places are reserved for 15 cadets taking the First Devonshire Course and 20 English students attending London University, who in turn release a corresponding number of places at their hostels for colonial students. This admixture of U.K. students has been a conspicuous success. The future career of a student is only one factor, though an important one, affecting his admission to Hans Crescent Hostel.

Disturbance, Mukalla

The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:

28. Mr. FENNER BROCKWAY,—TO ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on the shooting in Mukalla of 16 persons during a demonstration outside the Sultan's palace in protest against a recent appointment to the Secretariat.

I ask that this Question be transferred to Questions not for oral answer, Sir.

Questions cannot be transferred from the Order Paper. They must either be asked or not asked.

[See Written Answers, Col. 184.]

Tanganyika (Development Corporation Assets)

29.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies to what extent any part of the proposed £24,000,000 to be expended by the Government of Tanganyika on its welfare programme will be spent in acquiring any assets of the Overseas Development Corporation.

The Government of Tanganyika hope to purchase from the Overseas Food Corporation some surplus material which is suitable for use in implementing the territory's development programme, but it is not possible at this stage to give details of the nature or cost of purchases which have still to be made.

Would the Minister give sympathetic consideration to any mutual arrangements that can be made in this direction?

Can the Minister say anything about the transfer? Will it be done by open sale or at valuation, and, if at valuation, who will do the valuing?

Discussion is taking place about this between the Tanganyika Government and the O.D.C.

Jamaica (Maroons Of Accompong)

33.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if a procedure for the election of a new colonel of the Maroons of Accompong has now been agreed: and if he will make a statement.

I understand from the Acting Governor of Jamaica that Mr. T. J. Cawley has been elected colonel.

In view of the remarkable history of these people, will my right hon. Friend do his best to ensure that, under the leadership of their new colonel, they will be enabled to preserve their identity and that measure of self-government that they have always enjoyed?

West Africa

Inquiry, Sierra Leone (Report)

34.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will make available to Members of this House copies of the report of the Board of Inquiry appointed by the Governor of Sierra Leone to examine the causes and circumstances of the disturbance which broke out at the Marampa mine of the Sierra Leone Development Company: and whether he will take steps in advance to find out whether other similar companies in West Africa are creating the risk of similar disturbances by adopting practices similar to those which were adversely commented upon by the Board in the case of this company.

I am arranging to place a copy of the report in the Library. I am glad to say that subsequent negotiations between the company and the union have resulted in a satisfactory settlement on most of the matters in the report. My Assistant Labour Adviser has recently returned from Sierra Leone, where he had consultations with the Governor on labour relations in the territory generally: and my hon. Friend may rest assured that any general lessons that may be learned from an incident of this kind are not neglected.

Does the Minister agree that the report shows that a little while ago a most unsatisfactory state of affairs existed and that it is a matter for consideration whether there is need for investigation to see that similar situations do not develop elsewhere?

As I indicated, my Assistant Labour Officer has recently been in Sierra Leone to investigate the whole position. He has just returned and we are discussing the matter with him.

Without any hostility, may I give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment on 2nd March?

Co-Operative Mission (Reports)

40.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has yet arranged for the Gold Coast and Sierra Leone Governments to publish the report of the Co-operative Mission which, at his invitation, visited those Colonies in 1949.

The Sierra Leone Report has been published. As regards the Gold Coast Report, the Governor considers that publication at this juncture might hinder rather than help the carrying out of the recommendations of the Commission, which is now being actively pursued. The report was made to the Governor, and publication is in his discretion.

Should not the Sierra Leone report have been published without pressure from the House? Is it not a waste of money to send out this Commission and then to suppress their report?

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that these Commissions are appointed by the Governor in consultation with His Majesty's Government, but the publication of reports has always been at the discretion of the Governor, which I think is right.

Gambia (Poultry Disease)

44.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what reports he has received of outbreaks of fowl pest or other disease in the Gambia: and what steps he is taking to deal with them.

Common poultry diseases such as fowl typhoid have been known to exist in the Gambia for a considerable time. Fowl pest was first diagnosed and reported at the end of 1949. It has not been possible to bring these diseases under general control. I understand, however, that the Colonial Development Corporation have taken measures for the effective isolation of their poultry farm, where trouble has been confined to a single outbreak of fowl typhoid which is now under control.

Can the right hon. Gentleman assure us that the somewhat disappointing results of the Colonial Development Corporation Scheme which the Minister of Food revealed last week have nothing much to do with the question of disease?

Can my right hon. Friend give us any information about the extent to which fowl pest in the Gambia has necessitated the destruction of fowls?

Nigeria

Groundnuts

35.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that, owing to the breakdown of recently imported locomotives on the Nigerian railways, stocks of groundnuts are again accumulating at Kano: and what steps he proposes to remedy the situation.

Yes, Sir. Action is being taken in consultation with the manufacturers to restore the locomotives to service with the least possible delay. Any substantial accumulation of stocks at Kano should only be temporary since, owing to bad weather, this year's crop of groundnuts is, unfortunately, small.

In view of the well-known shortage of groundnuts, is it not rather fantastic that even the smallest stock should be allowed to accumulate?

It is indeed regrettable, and we are doing our very best to speed up these repairs.

What was the cause of the breakdown? Were the locomotives imported from this country?

In view of the fact that they will no longer be needed on the Government Groundnut Scheme in East Africa, would it be possible to transfer the locomotives to West Africa, to help private enterprise?

Can the Minister say whether the breakdown of the locomotives was due to the poor quality of Nigerian coal, a great deal of which we are now to import into this country?

Does not the Minister remember the great loss which took place in accumulated stocks at Kano two years ago owing to attack by weevil? How does he explain this repetition, even though on a smaller scale, in exactly the same circumstances, due to lack of railway materials?

I appreciate that, and we are giving this matter earnest consideration. It is very regrettable that stocks should be allowed to accumulate.

36.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if his attention has been drawn to the traffic in groundnuts between Nigeria and neighbouring French territory owing to the higher prices obtainable there: and what steps he proposes to stop this traffic.

There is no reliable evidence that there has been any significant movement of groundnuts across the border from Nigeria. I understand that the French buying season has now closed

Even if there had been any at all does it not show up the artificial situation created by Government control of prices and trading in this way?

Museum, Ife

37.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he has a statement to make with regard to the museum at Ife, Nigeria, which was constructed by the Public Works Department at a cost of over £8,000, and the roof of which fell in immediately after completion: what will be the total cost of the building when safe and ready for occupation: and what will be the total time then taken from commencement of building to completion.

The museum at Ife was finished early in 1949. A year later defects appeared in the roof, which had to be stripped and dismantled. I understand that the museum was to be opened in August, 1950, but I have asked the Governor for further information on this and other points and will write to my hon. Friend when it is received.

Since these treasures, which are not only of interest to Nigeria but of international interest, might well have been damaged by what happened, would the Minister ask the Governor to look into the standards of work of the Public Works Department there?

Coal Exports

41.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how much coal has been shipped from Nigeria to this country since it was decided to import Nigerian coal: how much awaits shipment at the colliery and Port Harcourt, respectively: and to what extent the ships sent to load it have been kept waiting.

I have asked the Governor of Nigeria for the information requested and will communicate further with the hon. Member when his reply is received.

Kenya

National Service

38.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what reply has been given by the Kenya Government to the request of the leaders of the Asian and African peoples that National Service should not be confined to the Europeans.

When Asian and African members of the Kenya Legislative Council asked whether Asians and Africans could be conscribed for military training the Government spokesman replied that it was thought best to apply the principle of conscription first to Europeans, but that he would welcome discussions with the Asian and African members with a view to its extension. There has not yet been an opportunity for these discussions.

Will my right hon. Friend impress upon the Kenya Government the fact that the introduction of conscription for one section in a mixed community will certainly tend to increase the present discontent in Kenya?

That is why it was stated by the Government spokesman that he would welcome discussion on this matter with representatives of the Africans and Asians.

In view of this voluntary proposal to serve in the Armed Forces in East Africa, will the right hon. Gentleman call the attention of the Secretary of State for War to the fact that this gives a great opportunity for expanding the colonial forces in East Africa?

African Farmers (Loans)

39.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why the Kenya Government charge 8 per cent. interest on loans to African farmers.

The rate of interest charged is that recommended by the Committee on Agricultural Credit for Africans. The Committee recommended a rate of 8 per cent. to be reduced to six where a clear title to land existed as security. The rate was calculated as being just sufficient to cover interest payable to Government, working expenses and bad debts, and not being so favourable as to prejudice the chances of forming and developing a system of credit through co-operative societies, including the establishment of a co-operative central bank. The Committee considered that ultimately only such a system could achieve generally the aim of providing the credit required for African farmers.

While welcoming the reduction from 8 per cent. to 6 per cent., may I ask my right hon. Friend to see that more attention is given to this matter, because even 6 per cent. hardly seems a cheap money policy?

I appreciate that, and I agree entirely with the Committee that the right way to solve this problem is by encouraging co-operation in all its forms.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to see that the Kenya Government are not described as "shabby moneylenders"?

Coffee Growing (Permits)

42.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies to what extent permits have been given to African farmers to grow coffee in the Fort Hall and Nyeri districts, Kenya: and when permits are similarly to be granted to African farmers in the Kiambu district and in other districts of Kenya where at present Africans are not allowed to grow coffee.

Areas in Nyeri districts were scheduled only in November, 1949, and so far 400 licences have been issued. Up to the present, plantings have been provided free in order to popularise growing of coffee in this area. Later, a small charge may be made on lines similar to those introduced by cooperatives elsewhere. The areas in Fort Hall have only recently been scheduled, and in consequence no licences have yet been issued, but experience elsewhere has shown that few licences are issued until considerable propaganda has been carried out by agricultural officers. The question of permitting cultivation of Arabica coffee in Kiambu is under consideration.

While expressing appreciation of the permission to grow coffee in the Fort Hall and Nyeri districts, may I ask my right hon. Friend to press for the rapid acceptance of no racial discrimination in other parts of Kenya in this matter?

Yes, Sir, I will. At the same time, in view of the danger of disease, it is very desirable that the extension of the growing of coffee should be controlled. It is purely for that reason, and for no other, that control is necessary.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the need to maintain the quality of coffee from those areas, which has gained a most enviable reputation over many years and which might be endangered if native grown coffee, particularly in the form of buni, were allowed to be exported?

Yes, Sir. That is why control is essential, but it is essential for that purpose only.

Should not the principle of action be determined by whether the plants are open to disease and not whether they are grown by European or African farmers?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is no discrimination about coffee growing by African farmers, and is it not best to leave the decision in the hands of the competent agricultural officers in Kenya?

Is it not a fact that regulations issued in 1934 and 1949 prohibit Africans from growing coffee in Kenya except in certain scheduled districts?

That was a fact. Perhaps I may refer my hon. Friend to the last part of my answer:

"The question of permitting cultivation of Arabica coffee in Kiambu is under consideration."

Festival Of Britain

45.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will make a statement upon the progress of the erection of the South Bank Exhibition, giving details of the sections which are up to and behind schedule.

Progress on the construction of the South Bank Exhibition has been appreciably delayed both by continuous bad weather and by interruptions of work due to industrial disputes.

A loss of approximately one-fifth of the total working time since last summer has been caused by bad weather. I have no similar estimate of the effects of unofficial strikes, but these have necessarily had consequences greater than the loss of time of the men actually involved. Nevertheless, the Festival Office are satisfied that, given an improvement in weather conditions and no further interruptions of work, the Exhibition will open on the arranged date of 4th May.

The underground services and the bulk of the external building work have now been completed, and Exhibition display construction is proceeding in nearly all the pavilions. Bad weather has particularly delayed paving work, and if there is no improvement there will be difficulty in ensuring clean access to the buildings for the installation of- exhibits. The House will appreciate that to give details of the sections would involve a lengthy statement of a technical nature. I am being kept fully informed and, while I do not underestimate the difficulties, I am confident that, barring further accidents, the Exhibition will open according to plan.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Chairman of the Works Committee on the site stated yesterday that the men will do everything possible to see that the Exhibition is opened on time, that it will be the best Exhibition the world has yet seen, and that they would like to see it continue into 1952?

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether, although he expects the Exhibition to open on the right day, he expects the work to be completed by that day?

Substantially, I think so: it may be that all of it will, but it is conceivable that some things may not be quite finished. However, that would not interfere with the opening.

As we all wish the Festival of Britain to be a great success, may I ask whether the Festival Office could be told that in the interests both of accuracy and the preservation of decent English it should take more care over the wording of its advertisements in foreign journals? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware, for instance, that "Life" the other day committed this atrocity in a Festival advertisement:

"You will find that devaluation has made (Britain a thrifty land in which to vacation"?

With great respect, I cannot in any way conceive what this has to do with the Question on the Order Paper.

Statutory Instruments (Parliamentary Control)

I beg to move,

That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Statutory Instruments Act, 1946, in order to render subject to Parliamentary control statutory instruments presented to Parliament which are neither subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament nor required to be approved or confirmed by Parliament.
As hon. Members who have their Order Paper will see, the title "Statutory Instruments (Parliamentary Control)" adequately describes the purpose of the Bill which I seek leave to introduce. I believe that in 1946 the Select Committee on Procedure considered, amongst other things, the position with regard to delegated legislation and recommended that there should be a full examination, I think by the Joint Select Committee of both Houses. That I cannot achieve today, but I mention it in passing.

Every one of us realises that a measure of delegated legislation is necessary. It has been going on for at least 400 years and different Parliaments, different Governments, have adopted different procedures with regard to delegated legislation, with the result that the whole position is in a state of great confusion. The object of my Bill is to diminish that confusion to a small extent. I am not attempting to deal with the whole subject, because I think that is a matter which would have to be handled by a Government with the full responsibility of government.

I am merely trying to provide that when an order is presented to Parliament, Parliament shall be entitled to discuss it. At present a number so introduced are not debatable, which I think is quite absurd. Every one of us realises that the essential method of the Fascists, Nazis and Communists is legislation by decree. I think legislation by decree is an evil thing unless there is some Parliamentary control over the decree. As a matter of fact, nearly half the orders which are published by the Stationery Office are not debatable.

I think the right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council was largely responsible—I was not in the House at the time—for the Statutory Instruments Act of 1946 which, I frankly recognise, improved the position by comparison with that existing under the Act which it replaced—the Act of 1893, although for the moment I have forgotten its Title. But the position remains unsatisfactory. I have had an interesting experience in the last 10 years in that I have looked at—I will not say studied—every Statutory Instrument which has been published —somewhere between 20,000 and 30,000. I have, therefore, acquired a certain amount of knowledge and experience about them. The right hon. Gentleman is aware of the activities during the wartime Parliament of the group with which I was then connected—and with which I am still connected—to try to improve the position. It has been improved in many ways, but it still remains somewhat unsatisfactory.

I want to quote to the House one or two examples. They are all selected from the last few weeks. The other day an order was published controlling the export of goods—a very important matter: and on that we cannot have a Prayer. But just about the same time an order was published about the control of exchange payments. Both orders fall in the same category, yet we can have a Prayer about the latter order. An order was published about teachers' superannuation rules. It merely affects their conditions of service, and about that we cannot have a Prayer. Yet the order on Fire Services (Ranks and Conditions of Service) is prayable—but both belong to orders dealing with people's remuneration. I turn to the topical subject of quilts, the price of which is controlled by Order No. 89, which I find is prayable. But the price of commodities depends largely upon the remuneration of those who produce them, and when I turn to a Wages Council Order I find that that cannot be discussed in the House. This shows complete inconsistency.

Tomorrow we are to discuss an order about the Transfer of Functions of Ministries of the Crown. That is an important constitutional issue, for we are re-arranging the duties of certain Ministers, and that order is prayable. The other day, however, an Order in Council was approved by His Majesty, no doubt on the initiative of the Air Ministry, which changes the composition of the Air Council. The composition of the Air Council—and I am not talking of the personnel—may be a matter of substantial constitutional significance, but we can do nothing about it. We can discuss the transfer of functions of the Ministry of Health, but we cannot discuss the Air Council.

If I happened to be an Ulster man, I could pray about the stopping of a highway at Kirkistown. That is prayable. But if I want to pray about stopping a highway in Hertfordshire, I cannot do so, because that is in England. The position is in a state of absolute and complete confusion. The Minister of Transport does not want people to travel over the Mill-wall Clock Spring Bridge at more than five miles per hour. That may be a very good thing, and we can pray about that. If he wants to stop up a highway in Glamorganshire we cannot pray about it. When he wants to prescribe a London street and turn it into a one-way street, we can have a Prayer about that. The whole thing is so inconsistent and absurd that the time has come for the question to be investigated. My Bill merely seeks to cover one small part—the least controversial part—namely, that when an order is formally laid on the Table we should be entitled to take Parliamentary action by having a Prayer about it.

I want to oppose this Bill. It is very easy for the hon. Member for Croydon, East (Sir H. Williams), to produce certain instances and, by reference to them, to attempt to justify a sweeping Measure of this kind. May I concede to him at once that there are border-line cases in which it may be desirable that his Bill should apply. But it is impossible to come to a conclusion about his Bill on the speech he has made today.

As every hon. Member knows, there are four categories of Statutory Instruments. There are those which are subject to an affirmative Resolution: there are those which are subject to a negative Resolution: there are those which have to be laid before the House: and there is a fourth category which does not have to be laid before the House. What the hon. Member's Bill proposes by a quite haphazard, hit-or-miss method, is to take Orders out of the third category, to abolish it, and to include them in the second category. His Bill does nothing with the fourth category nor does it affect the position of the first two categories.

Why have we these categories at all, and why have we the proposal to abolish the third category? We have these categories, as every hon. Member knows perfectly well, because there are Statutory Instruments of varying degrees of importance. It may be desirable in one case to make the order subject to an affirmative Resolution of the House before it comes into operation, while in another case the order may be of such little significance that there is no point even in laying it before Parliament at all.

Parliament itself decides. The difference between a Parliamentary decision by the present method and a Parliamentary decision by the method proposed by the hon. Member for Croydon, East, is this: that Parliament now decides into which category a Statutory Instrument shall fall when it is considering the Bill which authorises that Statutory Instrument. In other words, Parliament now considers each individual case on its merits by debate in this House, when the House is fully seized of all the facts which relate to the Statutory Instrument.

What the hon. Member for Croydon, East, proposes is not that at all. What he proposes is a "steam-rollering" by which he says that every single Statutory Instrument which Parliament in its wisdom has decided in the past should be subject to one form of procedure or another, shall, if it falls within a particular category of procedure—the third category—be removed from that category altogether and come within the second category. That is an utterly unreasonable proposal.

May I give two examples of the effect the hon. Member's proposal would have? I shall give cases of Statutory Instruments which fall within the third category which he seeks to abolish—instruments which he proposes should be subject to a negative Resolution. First, there are orders made under the Merchant Shipping Act of 1932, declaring that a foreign Government has ratified a load-line Convention—a purely explanatory provision. It would be absurd and thoroughly nugatory to make that subject to a negative Resolution of the House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Because if the House passes a negative Resolution it seeks to make of no force a declaration by a foreign Government. That is why. It ought to be perfectly obvious to hon. Members.

The next instance is that of a declaration that there is an area infected with foot and mouth disease. From that certain automatic statutory results follow, but the declaration, the order declaring that foot and mouth disease exists in a certain area, cannot be altered by a negative Resolution of this House. It would be ridiculous if it could be. It is not appropriate that the House should be responsible for deciding whether foot and mouth disease has broken out in a place.

There was an earlier Bill brought forward in 1949 by the hon. Member for St. Marylebone (Sir W. Wakefield). That Bill, more moderately, provided for large categories of exceptions. The hon. Member for Croydon, East has no patience

Division No. 39.]

AYES

[3.44 p.m.

Alport, C. J. M.Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. CGrimston, Hon J (St. Albans)
Amery, J. (Preston, N.)Crouch, R. F.Grimston, R V (Westbury)
Amory, D. Heathcoal (Tiverion)Crowder, Capt. John F E. (Finchley)Harden, J. R. E.
Arbuthnot, JohnCrowder, F. P. (Rulslip—Northwood)Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)
Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W)Cundiff, F. W.Harris, R. R. (Heston)
Baldwin, A. E.Cuthbert, W. N.Harvey, Air -Codre. A. V. (Maeclasfield)
Banks, Col. C.Davies, Nigel (Epping)Hay, John
Baxter, A. B.de Chair, S.Heald, L. F.
Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.De la Bére, R.Heath, E. R.
Bennett, Sir P. (Edgbaston)Deedes, W. F.Henderson, John (Cathcart)
Bennett, R. F. B. (Gosport)Digby, S. WingfieldHicks-Beach, Maj. W W
Bennett, W. G. (Woodside)Donner, P. W.Higgs, J. M. C.
Birch, NigelDouglas-Hamilton, Lord MHill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)
Bower, N.Drayson, G. B.Hinchingbrooke, Viscount
Boyd-Carpenter, J. ADrewe, C.Hirst, Geoffrey
Boyle, Sir EdwardDuncan, Capt. J. A. LHollis, M. C.
Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr J GDunglass, LordHope, Lord J.
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col WDuthie W. S.Hopkinson, H L. D'A
Brooke, H. (Hampstead)Eden, Rt. Hon. AHornsby-Smith, Miss P.
Browne, J. N. (Govan)Erroll, F. J.Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. TFletcher, W. (Bury)Howard, G. R. (St. Ives)
Bullock, Capt. M.Fraser, Hon. H. C. P. (Stone)Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)
Bullus, Wing Commander E. EFraser, Sir I. (Morecambe & Lonsdale)Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S (Southport)
Burden, Squadron Leader F. A.Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D. (Pollok)Hudson, W. R (Hull. N.)
Butoher, H. W.Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)Hurd, A. R.
Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'ld'n)Gammans, L. D.Hutchinson, Geoffrey (Ilford, N.)
Carr, Robert (Mitcham)Garner-Evans, E. H. (Denbigh)Hutchison, Lt.-Com Clark (E'b'rgh W.)
Chehill, Rt. Hon. W SGomme-Duncan, Col. AHutchison, Col. J. R. H (Scotstoun)
Clyde, J. L.Gridley, Sir A.Hyde, Lt.-Col H. M
Conant, Maj. R. J EGrimond, JHylton-Foster. H B

with categories of exceptions. He would ride rough-shod over everything. The diffe5rence between the Bill of the hon. Member for St. Marylebone and the Bill of the hon. Member for Croydon, East is the difference between the hon. Member for St. Marylebone and the hon. Member for Croydon, East. We are here, in fact, on the lunatic fringe of the Conservative Party. [ Interruption.] I am glad to have the approbation of so many hon. Members opposite. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."]

The third category of orders can already be subject to investigation by Questions to Ministers. It can be subject to investigation on Motions for the Adjournment. The difference is, of course, that those means of inquiry in the House are not exempted business. I suggest that this Measure is sought to be brought before the House in order to increase the amount of exempted business which can be dealt with in the House. [ Laughter.] Certainly. To increase exempted business in cases like these that I have quoted is quite unnecessary. It is to impose on Parliament business which it is quite unnecessary to impose on Parliament. It is merely throwing a spanner into the works.

Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 12.

The House divided: Ayes, 192: Noes, 248.

Jeffreys, General Sir GMorrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)Snadden, W McN.
Jennings, R.Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.)
Jones, A. (Hall Green)Mott-Radolyffe, C. ESpens, Sir P (Kensington, S.)
Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L WNabarro, G.Stanley, Capt. Hon. R. (N. Fylde)
Kaberry, DNicholls, H.Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)
Keelin