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Oral Answers To Questions

Volume 487: debated on Tuesday 8 May 1951

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Housing

Rent Subsidies

1.

asked the Minister of Local Government and Planning what is the estimated total cost of rent subsidies, including local and national accounts.

About £60 million for 1950–51.

Is there any financial ceiling to this subsidy, as in the case of the food subsidies and in the case of the Health Services? If not, are these sums likely to be extended in the coming years?

Improvement Grants

2.

asked the Minister of Local Government and Planning whether he is aware that the terms of paragraph 3 (III) of the Practice Notes issued to local housing authorities under Circular 4/51 are giving rise to misunderstanding; and if he will make it clear that houses let to employees, as distinct from houses used for service occupancy without rent, are eligible in appropriate cases for an improvement grant under the Housing Act, 1949.

I do not think that any misunderstanding should arise. The hon. Member's statement of the case in the last part of his Question is quite correct.

9.

asked the Minister for Local Government and Planning how many applications for improvement of housing accommodation under the Housing Act, 1949, have been approved by him for the West Riding of Yorkshire during 1950.

In view of the very small number that the right hon. Gentleman has announced, could he say whether that small number is due to the difficulties of local authorities in having to find the money out of their allocations for repairs, and whether, if a local authority refuses an application under this Act, there is any appeal?

This is primarily a matter for the local authority, and I do not think it is for me to interfere. I am quite prepared to grant applications that come to me, but in fact these particular local authorities have approved only 18 applications. The grant, of course, is three-quarters of the loss likely to be incurred under Section 15 of the Act.

That does not answer my Question. Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether this allocation comes out of the total allocation allowed to councils for repairs?

Repairs And Maintenance (Cost)

3.

asked the Minister of Local Government and Planning if he is aware that the cost of repairs and maintenance of properties has increased by about 300 per cent. of their pre-war level, and that properties throughout the country are falling into a state of disrepair; and if he will introduce legislation to authorise an increase in controlled rents to enable landlords to meet their outgoings.

In reply to the first part of the Question, my predecessor and I have received various representations on this subject. In reply to the second part, I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to the hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Hay), on Tuesday last.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that this class administration is doing irreparable harm to the homes and happiness of all those concerned?

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that although the suggestion made in this Question may not necessarily be the entire answer, the problem nevertheless exists? Can he give the House an assurance that he realises that there is a problem here, and that he has not closed his mind entirely to the possibility of ameliorating the position?

It is very difficult to see how we can solve this under present conditions without creating even more serious problems in other directions.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that if he concedes this increase in rent for the 8 million families who will be concerned he will add considerably to the burden of the cost of living at the present time?

That has been brought out in the answer which I gave the hon. Member for Henley, last Tuesday.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that houses are becoming uninhabitable because of the lack of repairs? What action does the right hon. Gentleman propose to take in order to avoid this decay?

Re-Armament Workers

4.

asked the Minister of Local Government and Planning, in view of the fact that the waiting lists held by local authorities for housing, in over 80 per cent. of the cases, increased during 1950, what steps he is taking to provide accommodation for the additional workers it will be necessary to bring into factory areas under the new re-armament programme.

There is no ground for the statement made in the first part of the Question; as regards the second, I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to him on 13th February.

Does the Minister realise that there is a lot of ground for the statement I make in my Question? If he would take the trouble to write to the various local authorities he would find that there are terrific waiting lists, and that in over 80 per cent. of the cases the waiting lists increased in 1950–51. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] That certainly is so. If he will inquire he will find that my statement is absolutely correct. He will not be able to get the re-armament programme carried out because he will find he has nowhere to house the people who are supposed to move into the areas where the programme will be undertaken.

As I said in reply to a previous Question, we give particular priority to any cases where it may be necessary for the purpose of re-armament to bring new workers into an area. That has been the policy for dealing with this problem.

If the Minister will take the trouble to write personally to every local authority in the country, as I have done, he will find that the numbers are exactly as I have stated. But he has not taken the trouble to do that, and he knows it.

I am astonished to hear that the hon. Gentleman has written to all local authorities in the country. It is remarkable private enterprise on his part to do so. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] It is part of my policy not to waste the time of the officials of local authorities with too much correspondence and form filling. It is well known that these waiting lists vary very much from one area to another; they are not comparable. Many are based on one principle in one area and on a different principle in another area. There is a great deal of duplication on waiting lists, for many people are on more than one list. I have heard of a case of a man who is on 16 different lists—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] That is so; he is on 16 different lists. All these things create difficulties.

Is the right hon. Gentleman suggesting that there is no substantial housing problem at all?

Rent Tribunals (Appeals)

5.

asked the Minister of Local Government and Planning whether he will notify chairmen of rent tribunals of the desirability, when so requested in difficult or complex cases, of issuing their decisions in a reasoned form as speaking orders so that their decisions may be subject to review and benefit by the guidance of the High Court of Justice.

Does the Minister appreciate that the Question does not refer to a direction but to a letter of advice? Has he studied the decision of the High Court in the case of the King against the Northumberland Appeal Tribunal, and does he not agree that the best of these tribunals will welcome the opportunity of such guidance and that the worst of them ought to have it?

No, Sir. I do not agree. This question was discussed—that is, the question of the right of appeal from a decision of the tribunal to the courts—in the debate on the Landlord and Tenant (Rent Control) Act, 1949. That is what is involved here, and it would merely result in clogging up the lists of these tribunals. They deal with a large number of cases; 85,000 cases have been dealt with. To give rights of appeal on these would greatly prolong the procedure. Our hope is to quicken the answers.

Will the right hon. Gentleman read the Question—if he has not already done so—and the words "in difficult or complex cases"? Does he not appreciate the Question is limited to that?

A number of cases which some might think difficult and complex may not have been so regarded by the tribunals.

Softwood

6.

asked the Minister of Local Government and Planning when he expects to be able to relax the restrictions on the amount of softwood used in each new house.

Does the right hon. Gentleman's reply mean that there is not sufficient timber on the market, or simply that we have not been able to get it; because the Secretary for Overseas Trade said in this House not a month ago that we were purchasing in Canada all we required?

Supplies of Canadian softwood will be the highest since the war and sufficient to cover defence requirements as well as the civil building programme. On the other hand, stocks have fallen uncomfortably low and we must build them up. A soon as we have done so, we shall be only too delighted to give a further allocation to housing.

Does the right hon. Gentleman attempt to buy any softwood from Germany? If he goes from Strasbourg to Stuttgart he will find quantities of wood waiting to be purchased for building. Has he considered supplies from that part of the world?

Building Licences

8.

asked the Minister of Local Government and Planning to what extent, when allocating global sums to local authorities during 1951–52 in respect of building licences for private work, he took into consideration the importance of permitting the granting of licences by such local authorities to all applicants seeking to instal fuel saving equipment and plant, with special reference to coal and coke economy.

Equipment to save fuel in small houses generally costs less than £100, and so requires no building licence.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that in the cases where larger houses are involved—and there are thousands of them in the country generally—the paucity of licences for local authorities means that large fuel saving plant is now being squeezed out, with the result that fuel is being wasted? Will he view this matter a little more liberally?

I have a note of a case, which is perhaps in the hon. Member's mind, in the Kidderminster Borough Council area asking them to allow £900 to instal in a large house an oil burning central heating plant. As things are now they did not think—and I agree with them in thinking—they ought to allow that application.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that particular case has not been previously brought to my notice, and that my Question is guided by very large numbers of people who wish to save fuel in the national interest?

Premises, Lancaster

10.

asked the Minister of Local Government and Planning whether, in view of the present housing shortage in Lancaster, he will reconsider his refusal to allow the use of the premises in Regent Street, Lancaster, lately vacated by the district nurses, as a home for elderly people or for other housing purposes.

These premises belong to the Lancashire County Council and are used for a variety of purposes, including the housing of some of the council's staff. The county council appealed to me against the refusal of the Lancaster City Council to agree to their proposals for the use of the premises. After considering all the evidence, I allowed the appeal.

Is the Minister aware that these premises contained 16 bedrooms fitted with hot and cold water, and that they are ideally suited to be a home for old people? Is he aware that the decision to turn them into Government offices with accommodation for only three caretakers, I believe, has caused great indignation locally?

It is a question of a difference of opinion between two local authorities, and I have to do my best to come to a right decision in the matter. I am told that the number of persons housed is much the same as it would have been if Lancashire County Council had used the premises otherwise. That is what I am informed.

Taps

11.

asked the Minister of Local Government and Planning when he expects to make an announcement on the B.S. 1010 and the Ministry of Health Swan taps.

I shall not in future confirm new bylaws making B.S. 1010 taps compulsory.

Permanent Houses

13.

asked the Minister of Local Government and Planning how many permanent houses per 1,000 of the population have been completed between 1st April, 1945, and 1st March, 1951, or the nearest convenient date, in the respective areas of Nottingham, Bristol, Norwich and Sheffield.

On 31st March, 1951, the figures were 16.9, 20.5, 27.7 and 11.8, respectively.

Could the Minister explain why the figures are so much less in the case of Sheffield than in those other towns? Will he not look into this again to see if he cannot increase the number of licences for Sheffield and enable Sheffield to come more or less into line with the others?

I am always prepared to increase an allocation to an authority if there is any evidence it can make use of it within the time, and keep a balanced programme.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that labour cannot arrive on the sites until the licences have been granted?

There is a general, flow of licensing going on all the time. We have an allocation here, and as the year goes on, if there is evidence that the local authority can complete the work, I should be glad to consider it.

Local Government And Planning

Clay Workings, Devon

7.

asked the Minister of Local Government and Planning whether he will hold an inquiry into the infringement of commoners' rights by the progressive working of clay deposits on Chudleigh Knighton Heath in the County of Devon.

It is disputed whether there are any commoners' rights here. This question can only be decided by the courts.

Industrial De-Rating

14.

asked the Minister of Local Government and Planning if he will take steps to abolish the 75 per cent. reduction in assessment for local rating purposes enjoyed by business establishments at the present time.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is great and growing resentment in local Government circles at the inequitable incidence of local rating as between the business community and the residential people? Is my right hon. Friend further aware that there is a strong feeling that this concession to business was made in circumstances which were completely different from those ruling today?

These matters have been discussed, and my predecessor took the view, which I take, that the balance of the argument is against reversing the derating arrangements. We do not wish at this moment to increase the costs of industry. The Exchequer Equalisation Grant, which was introduced in the Act of 1948, has done very much better for many local authorities—and I am glad that it has—than re-rating would have done for them.

Will my right hon. Friend have a look at the financial columns of any daily paper and see what the results of industry are today, and will he consider, in accordance with those results, why under de-rating arrangements the figures are 75 per cent. in the case of industry, but must be 100 per cent. in residential cases?

It is a matter for debate, and I should be happy to take part in it on a suitable occasion.

Would not this proposal merely increase local authority revenue at the expense of the National Exchequer in terms of Income Tax?

Welsh Department

15.

asked the Minister of Local Government and Planning whether he has yet completed arrangements whereby his Welsh Department has direct access to him without submitting their recommendations for prior consideration by the Whitehall officials in his Department.

In accordance with my statement of 9th February last, the Chairman of the Welsh Board of Health and my Welsh Controller of Planning now have direct access to me.

Development Charges

16.

asked the Minister of Local Government and Planning what is the nature of the modifications he intends to make in the regulations dealing with land development charges.

Would my right hon. Friend reassure us about what appears to be the hopelessly arbitrary character of some of these charges?

Ministry Of Works

Hyde Park Lido

18.

asked the Minister of Works what will be the total expenditure on the alterations to the Lido in Hyde Park; and what benefits will accrue to the bathing public from these alterations.

The estimated cost of these improvements is £29,000. The benefits which will accrue to the public from this expenditure were described in the reply to the hon. Member's Question on 20th November, 1950. At present the available changing accommodation is insufficient to meet more than a fraction of the demand in fine weather.

May I be allowed to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his first answer in his new office? May I ask him if he is aware that, whereas the main requirement of this Lido is that there should be some space for sun bathing when there is sun, as a result of the fortifications being put up there is less space? Does this not represent a certain lack of planning?

No, Sir. We are planning on the factor which is constant—the supply of water in which people swim.

Paint Contractors

19.

asked the Minister of Works why, in connection with letting contracts to the building industry for work embracing painting operations, he specifies a short closed list of paint manufacturers, from which many well-known and reputable firms are excluded whose products may be obtainable at more economic prices; what are the qualifications for inclusion in this list; and if he will make a statement.

In order to ensure paintwork of high quality and long life in Crown buildings, and in Government buildings taken on long lease, the decorators' choice of paint is at present limited to the products of 21 firms which have undergone rigorous tests and are guaranteed. For other purposes this restriction does not apply. Any reputable manufacturer whose paint passes the tests, and who will give the required guarantees of performance, can secure entry to the limited list.

Do I understand from the Minister's reply that many of the reputable firms so far debarred from entering the list may be given the specifications with which they have to comply, and that if they can comply they can have their names added to the list?

There is no debarring. There is nothing to prevent them knowing the specifications and having their products tested and approved. If the hon. Lady knows of any difficulty and will let me know about it I will have it looked into.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is the very greatest difficulty in getting decisions made, and that though some firms have put their names forward for the list nothing has happened?

I am not aware of that. If the hon. Gentleman will give me particulars I will certainly have them looked into.

Will the right hon. Gentleman accept a list of firms who have endeavoured over a long period to go on the list and who still find they have not been included?

Newland Hall, Lancaster

20.

asked the Minister of Works whether, in view of the hardship involved, his Department will meet the cost of removing the works erected by them on land belonging to Lieutenant-Colonel Cary Owtram, New-land Hall, near Lancaster.

No, Sir. I have nothing to add to the reply my predecessor gave to the hon. Member on 13th March last.

Does the right hon. Gentleman really think it is fair that Lieut.-Colonel Owtram should suffer great hardship, in that after four years as a prisoner-of-war in the Far East he should now be made to bear the far greater part of the cost of making good damage done to his property in his absence by the War Department?

The difficulty is that we are operating under the law covering this matter—the Compensation (Defence) Act of 1939—and we cannot go outside it.

Civil Servants (Towels)

23.

asked the Minister of Works what is the cost of the issue of two new turkish towels now being made to each Civil servant.

It will cost approximately £140,000 to provide one towel for each Civil servant. The towels being provided are mainly huckaback, but some surplus turkish towels have been issued.

Are some of these magnificent turkish towels to be used in the Palace of Westminster?

There is a great deal of exaggeration about what are called turkish towels. They are ordinary rough towels, and were bought much more cheaply than others.

In addition to each civil servant at the War Office, will the members of the military staff be given towels as well?

Crown Jewels (Exhibition)

24.

asked the Minister of Works if he is aware that the facilities now allowed to sightseers for the purpose of viewing the Crown Jewels are unsatisfactory; and whether, in view of the large number of additional visitors expected during the Festival of Britain, he will arrange for an improvement to be made in the method of showing these exhibits to visitors.

The Jewel House was re-opened to the public on 1st May after being closed since 14th February for alterations designed to improve the display arrangements.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for the improvements that have been made since my Question went down, may I ask him if he is aware of the fact that while the actual viewing is better, the room is still too small, the approach is not good enough, and the exit is too small? The result is that there is one jammed mass of people. Could he take some steps to improve the size of the room so that the exhibits can be properly seen?

There is a limit to what we can do in that way, in the nature of things; but I have made some inquiries, and the responsible authorities tell me they are delighted with the new arrangements.

Building Licences

26.

asked the Minister of Works the number of building licences which his Department have granted since March, 1951, to industrial firms in respect of alterations to or construction of buildings for recreational purposes; and the total number of applications received over the same period.

Thirty-seven such licences have been granted since 1st March, 1951. Precise figures of the number of applications are not readily available, but they amounted to about double the number granted.

Is my right hon. Friend not aware that there has been considerable disappointment, particularly in Yorkshire, at the lack of consideration given by his predecessor to representations for recreational facilities? If I bring to his notice a case which has been under consideration by his predecessor for over 12 months, will he go into it personally and see what can be done about it?

Yes, Sir. I will look into it, but we have to remember that we are carrying out a very large building programme at the moment and there must obviously be some restrictions and difficulties.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I was asked in this particular case to get the firm to make a re-application in March of last year, that the amount is very small, that it is necessary to provide these recreational facilities for the staff, and that the Minister has found it impossible to grant a licence?

29.

asked the Minister of Works what steps he takes when granting licences for building civil engineering construction to ensure that any steel required is available.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that a large amount of building has started after licences have been granted and then stopped because of the lack of steel? Would it not be better if some system were adopted whereby, when licences were given, the authorities made sure that the steel was available for the buildings?

If the hon. Gentleman is pressing for further Government controls, I will certainly consider it.

34.

asked the Minister of Works whether, in view of increased cost of building materials, he will consider raising the free limit of £100 on repairs.

This point will be among those to be considered in deciding on the amount which may be spent without licence in the period beginning 1st July, 1951.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take into account that unless an alteration is made the higher price of materials means that fewer repairs can be done to old buildings?

Certainly, but there are considerations on the other side, such as the pressure of the defence programme.

Defence Programme (Bricks)

28.

asked the Minister of Works if he can now state the number of bricks which will be wanted for the extra building involved in the £4,700 million defence programme.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to him on 20th March, to which I have nothing to add.

As bricks have been scarce for housing purposes, and as the Government do not know what they want for defence purposes, on what basis do the Government say that there will be no interference with the housing programme?

Thatching, Dorset

33.

asked the Minister of Works if his attention has been drawn to the anxieties of the Dorset Master Thatchers' Association about the future of their ancient craft; and if he is prepared to abolish the regulation that a building licence must be obtained where the cost of thatching a building is estimated to be more than £100, since the materials used in thatching are not controlled or scarce and thatchers are not employed on any other type of building work.

No, Sir. I have not heard that the building licensing regulations have caused any difficulty to thatchers. If, however, the hon. Member has any particular case in mind, I should be glad to look into it.

Is the Minister aware of the importance of encouraging thatchers in regular work in view of the large number of buildings which are thatched and cannot be converted at the present time?

Yes, I am most certainly aware of its importance, and if the hon. Gentleman has any difficulty, perhaps he will let me know.

Palace Of Westminster

House Of Lords (Renovation)

22.

asked the Minister of Works what is the estimated cost of renovating the House of Lords.

Can my right hon. Friend say how much of this cost will be attributed to what the Press said was the need for fumigating the place?

How much softwood is going to be installed in this place? How does the expenditure compare with that on the Hyde Park Lido?

Electricity (Load Shedding)

25.

asked the Minister of Works whether he will state the causes of the blackout within the precincts of the Palace of Westminster on the morning of 30th April, 1951; whether electricity supplies emanate from the grid or from an independent electrical generating equipment; and what steps are to be taken to prevent a repetition of the inconvenience caused.

Electric current for the Palace of Westminster is supplied from the grid system by the London Electricity Board. The blackout which occurred on the morning of 30th April was the result of load shedding caused by the abnormally low temperature for the time of the year. Limited lighting from batteries is provided for use in emergency and an emergency generator provides power for some other essential services. I am considering whether anything further can be done.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that on the morning of 30th April the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. G. Ward) and myself who were with 90 constituents, mostly girls, were plunged into abysmal gloom in one of the lower corridors? Surely it is not beyond the right hon. Gentleman's ingenuity to install an independent generating plant and equipment which will automatically go into action when there is a power cut.

In reply to the second part of the Question, I have already stated that we are considering what can be done. As to the first part, I doubt whether the girls noticed the difference.

Would the right hon. Gentleman consider the possibility of installing alarm bells in the lifts which will not go out of action in the event of a power cut?

I personally felt quite safe in the presence of my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), but it was very disappointing not to be able to show this party of ladies St. Stephen's Crypt after they had come such a long way. If these breakdowns are caused by low temperature, could not the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. A. Bevan) be sent for on these occasions to raise it?

Government Departments

Offices, Whitehall Gardens (Doors)

30.

asked the Minister of Works what will be the cost of the machinery to be installed to operate the metal doors at the main entrance to the new block of Government offices in Whitehall Gardens; and what safeguards will exist to ensure that it will operate at times of loadshedding or other damage or cuts in the supply of power.

The cost of machinery to operate the doors at Whitehall Gardens is approximately £800 for each pair of doors and was included in the cost of the doors which was given by my predecessor in his reply to Questions on 24th April. An emergency power supply is available in the building to operate the machinery if necessary, but for the present we propose to rely on emergency hand-operating gear.

Is the Minister quite satisfied that the emergency hand-operating gear will be sufficient to stop these magnificent doors becoming a death trap in the case of any disaster?

31.

asked the Minister of Works for what reason it was considered necessary that the gates of the new office block in Whitehall Gardens should comprise 11½ tons of steel and aluminium, as against a specification carried out in lighter and more plentiful materials.

The panelling of the doors is in aluminium, which is one of the lightest of metals. A steel frame is necessary to give rigidity, and I am advised that any alternative metal would have been scarcer and more expensive.

Is not this an odd time for the Government to indulge in such prodigality in scarce metals?

Are not these gates very necessary to protect Ministers of the Crown against the rising tide of public indignation?

32.

asked the Minister of Works why he decided to install metal gates at great expense and of great weight for the main entrance of the new Government office block in Whitehall Gardens when gates of oak would have cost a fraction of the price and could be operated manually.

Oak doors would cost very little less than the steel-framed aluminium doors, and they would be thicker and as heavy. They would, therefore, have been just as difficult to operate manually as metal doors. As it would also be subject to movement through temperature variation the use of timber for doors of this great size would, in any event, be very inadvisable.

Although undoubtedly it would be cheaper and lighter to have doors which were installed with a central pillar or pillars in order to save the weight on each leaf of the doors does the Minister consider it is necessary to have these terrific doors of this enormous weight which merely act as a sort of grandiose temple of bureaucracy?

With great respect, I would point out that none of us is involved in this personally. What is regarded as a fine building has been put up. It has been approved by the Fine Art Commission, and it would be silly to spoil the architectural design in order to get something slightly cheaper in the way of doors.

Ministry Of Local Government And Planning (Staff)

35.

asked the Minister of Works whether the movement of the staff of the Ministry of Local Government and Planning from Savile Row is now complete; and over how many premises in London the staff of that Department is now dispersed.

The movement of staff from "Fortress House," Savile Row, is not yet complete. At present the staff of the Ministry of Local Government and Planning are distributed over eight premises.

Will the Minister tell the House whether the blame for this very unsatisfactory situation rests mainly with himself or with the Minister of Town and Country Planning, or perhaps with the Lord Privy Seal?

We do not consider that any blame rests on us. We are making moves which will bring the number of buildings occupied down to three, and this is both good planning and very necessary.

Can the Minister say when these moves are expected to be completed?

National Service

Territorial Officers (Civilian Occupations)

36.

asked the Minister of Labour when he proposes to review the occupations of officers in the Territorial Army Reserve of Officers with a view to releasing those who would not be called up in the event of an emergency.

It is proposed, about next September, to review the occupations of these officers with a view to identifying those who would not be available for embodiment for whole-time service in an emergency. It does not follow that officers so identified would be released from the Reserve: that is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War.

Can the hon. Gentleman say what liaison there will be between his Ministry and the Secretary of State for War in this matter?

In view of the large number of people affected who are anxious to know what their position will be in a national emergency, can we be assured that the War Office and the hon. Gentleman's Department will issue a statement on policy as soon as possible?

Deferred Medical Examinations

42.

asked the Minister of Labour why, in a case of which particulars have been sent to him, a young man's call-up has been twice deferred for periods of three months for a further examination; and whether he will in future give a definite decision as to whether exemption should or should not be granted on medical grounds within three months of the original examination, except in cases of temporary injury.

I have already written to the hon. Member about this case. On the first occasion on which the young man was referred to a consultant, the reply disclosed the existence of an abnormal condition which might indicate unfitness for service, the nature of which could not, however, be determined without further investigation. On the second occasion, the abnormal condition was less prominent but had not disappeared. The medical board deferred grading for a second period of three months, because it seemed possible that the young man might then be found fit for service.

In a case of this kind I do not think it unreasonable to defer grading for up to six months, but I propose to make sure that it is not deferred for longer than this except with the consent of the young man concerned.

Can the hon. Gentleman say what is the scope of this problem, how many such cases there are, and whether he appreciates the effect on morale of young men going in and out of dead end jobs, or any jobs at all, during the waiting period?

I have great sympathy with the hon. Member's point of view, but he will appreciate that we are not medical people. We have to take the advice of our consultants, but I am so concerned that I have made a promise that it will not go beyond the six months' period.

Is not this deferred medical examination a new system unknown in the examination of anyone in any walk of life for the Services?

I could not answer that without notice, but the occasions we have experienced it are very few indeed.

Employment

Elderly Persons

37.

asked the Minister of Labour what information he has as to what steps the nationalised industries are taking, in view of the present shortage of manpower, to re-engage former employees over the age of 65 years and discharged on account of age, who are both fit and anxious to be re-employed.

43.

asked the Minister of Labour what steps have been taken to bring the Government's policy of encouraging workers to remain in employment until they are 70 years of age to the notice of the boards of all nationalised industries and to the heads of the Civil Service.

My right hon. Friend's predecessor wrote to his colleagues concerned with employment in central and local government service, and in the nationalised industries, asking them to draw the attention of the authorities concerned to the Government's policy of taking all appropriate steps both in regard to the retention and re-engagement of older persons who are fit and willing to work. The nationalised industries are, of course, represented on the National Joint Advisory Council, which is in agreement with the Government's policy on this matter.

Will the Minister say when that letter went, because I had long correspondence with the Chairman of the Transport Commission about a constituent of mine, and the reply has not been very satisfactory.

Is the Minister aware that, regardless of that letter, skilled craftsmen are still being refused permission to carry on when they want to work after 65, and will he try to find out what effect that letter has had on the nationalised industries?

I think that this question was fully discussed in the House a week or two ago, when particular difficulties were stressed by hon. Members on both sides of the House. We realise that there are difficulties when men are forced to retire, and we are doing everything in our power to ensure that these difficulties do not arise.

Will my hon. Friend take notice of the fact that there is an idea in these industries that efforts are made to get people over the age of 65 who are on superannuation or on salaries to stay on, but that the other people, the ordinary industrial workers who are paid wages, are not being given the same privilege of remaining in employment?

We should regret very much if any such impression were being entertained in those industries.

In view of the last part of Question 43, could the hon. Gentleman say whether steps have been taken in regard to the Civil Service?

Yes, I think in the debate we had some time ago that I pointed out that the official side have already laid the subject before the trade unions concerned to get the retirement age abolished altogether, and to provide that the basis upon which men and women remain in the Civil Service should be their ability to perform their task.

Will my hon. Friend ask for the report from both the nationalised industries and the Civil Service and what action they have taken as a result of the representations of the Minister?

I think the time is not yet opportune to do that. Negotiations in the nationalised industries and in the Civil Service are now taking place, and I hope they will also take place in private industry, but it is rather early to expect a decision from them.

41.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will now say what response there has been from trade unions to the encouragement given them to arrange for workers to retire at a more advanced age.

Both sides of industry have endorsed the Government's policy through the National Joint Advisory Council and are bringing it to the attention of their constituent bodies.

Does the Minister appreciate that anyone who wishes to retire at 60 or 65 is forced to go on working because of the present cost of living? On the other hand, does he also appreciate that this is continuing to cause unemployment in places like Portsmouth? Can I have an answer?

Restrictive Practices

38.

asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the Government's intention to present a White Paper on Resale Price Maintenance, a White Paper will also be laid before the House with the Government's proposals for dealing with trades unions' restrictive practices.

Does the Minister agree that there are such things as trade union restrictive practices, and does he not agree that it will be to the country's productive benefit if they were modified or abolished? If he agrees with these two things will he do something about it?

The hon. Member should appreciate that we are not going to get the best results by going over old sores again. Our approach is the more constructive one of saying, "Let us see how we can get an increase in production." In the existing conditions, I do not think it would serve any good purpose to open up acrimonious discussions between both sides of industry.

If that is the view of trade unions, would they not welcome ventilation of this subject?

I believe there are two sides to this argument. I think probably the best answer to all this is the remarkable increase in productivity achieved in the last two or three years.

Hospital Committee, Sandbach (Ministry Official)

39.

asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been called to the withdrawal of the manager of the Sandbach Employment Exchange from the Arclid Hospital House Committee; and why it is now the general practice of his Department not to allow his officials to serve on such committees.

Yes, Sir, I understand this took place over a year ago. No general rule has been laid down about officers of the Department serving on a hospital house committee, but it is the general practice of the Department not to allow members of the staff to accept office on bodies whose functions include the engagement of labour.

Is not this gross interference with the liberty of a subject who wants to serve others in his spare time? Why cannot he do it? Could I have an answer?

Classifications

40.

asked the Minister of Labour which forms of employment he has classified as unproductive; and what steps he is taking, in view of the urgent need of increased production, to reduce the volume of unproductive employment.

The only employment classifications are those appearing in the Ministry of Labour Gazette, copies of which are in the Library.

Does the Minister realise the urgency of separating the true from the false, the real from the unreal and the productive from the unproductive? Does he not realise that if this country is to get prosperous again we must have a proper classification, and will he come and see me afterwards about this matter?

I do not know what the hon. Gentleman means by productive and unproductive. Would he include transport as being unproductive? There is such a wide variation that I think it very dangerous to try to classify.

Will the Minister say whether the hon. Member is productive or unproductive?

Radio-Therapy Treatment, Perth

44.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland why patients, resident in the County of Perth, have to go to Dundee Royal Infirmary for radiotherapy treatment of malignant diseases, causing great inconvenience and hardship; and if he will arrange for such treatment to be given at Perth Royal Infirmary.

Radio-therapy treatment requires highly specialised equipment and techniques and, in accordance with accepted policy, is available only at a limited number of centres under the control of consultants with special experience. Dundee Royal Infirmary is the centre for this work in the Eastern Region. The Regional Hospital Board intend, however, to establish a clinic at Perth for the initial examination of patients and for follow-up purposes.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that it is a very great hardship to have people going all the way to Dundee from some of the remote parts of Western Perthshire, and is it not possible to instal some apparatus in the Perth Royal Infirmary to meet these people's needs? Must they go to Dundee?

I agree it is a hardship, but it would be a greater hardship if these people were treated with an apparatus of limited capacity when techniques of the highest possible level are available. I could not possibly have all these available in every part of the county. I would plead with the hon. Member to reflect, when perhaps he will agree that this is the best treatment that can be made available for these very sick people.

As the Perth Royal Infirmary has hitherto held a very high standard for radio-therapy, and as what the right hon. Gentleman intends to set up will be in accordance with that standard, can he give us any idea when it is likely to be established? Will it be within a few months?

I should not like to mislead the hon. and gallant Gentleman. The clinic will be limited to use for initial examination and, after the normal processes of treatment where necessary have been discharged, for what the specialists call the follow-up treatment. It is not the main treatment. That must be given at the main centre in Dundee.

South Bank Exhibition

46.

asked the Lord Privy Seal when an announcement is likely to be made in respect of the continuation of the South Bank Exhibition in 1952.

Any question of continuing the South Bank Exhibition in 1952 depends in the first place on public demand. I can give an assurance that the question will be most carefully watched and that a decision will be reached and announced as soon as circumstances permit.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that there are many good reasons why the greatest show on earth should continue in 1952? To get the best possible results from such a decision, should it not be made as soon as possible? It calls for neither courage nor foresight to make that decision early.

It has had a very good start, but we had better wait a little bit before we take any decision about continuing next year.

Will the London County Council be given an opportunity of purchasing these premises when the Festival is finished?

The site belongs to the London County Council already. They have other designs on its use.

Has my right hon. Friend ever seen anything funnier than the sour expression on the faces of the Tories going round the Exhibition on Friday?

47.

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he will consider the advisability of leaving the South Bank Exhibition site in permanent existence, after the conclusion of the Festival of Britain, so that it may be used as an exhibition site, on a hiring basis, by British manufacturers for trade and industry exhibitions.

No, Sir. I am advised that most of the buildings are not suitable for this purpose and none has any heating installation. In any case, the site will eventually be needed for other purposes.

Does not the Lord Privy Seal think it would be as well to have this site, so that trade exhibitions could all be held in one spot instead of being separated between Olympia and Earls Court, as with the B.I.F.? Does he not further think that it will be a terrible waste to pull these buildings down when the exhibition is over?

On the question of further exhibitions, the trouble is that the buildings are specially designed for their present purpose and for a temporary period. I do not think they would be suitable for ordinary trade exhibitions.

Are not these questions prompted by a laudable desire to represent the interests of private enterprise?

Surely the Lord Privy Seal, with his great knowledge of engineering, must appreciate that there are many engineering exhibitions which could quite well be held on this South Bank site? Would he not consider the matter from that angle alone?

I am perfectly prepared to consider anything, but, as I said in reply to the previous Questions, we had better wait and see how we go on.

50.

asked the Lord Privy Seal if he has investigated the numerous complaints made to him by guests regarding the arrangements for the opening of the South Bank Exhibition on Friday, 4th May; and if he will make a statement.

I know of only one or two complaints. Some arose from a misunderstanding on the part of guests about the composition of the party which was to accompany Their Majesties on their tour of the Exhibition. I am satisfied that, on the whole, the arrangements worked very well. Such difficulties as were experienced were only to be expected on the first day of a great undertaking of this sort; I know the Festival Office is making such adjustments as day-to-day experience shows to be necessary.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a number of visitors experienced difficulty in seeing the Exhibition owing to a lack of direction and the absence of information, and that these are the very people who could go back to their home towns and stimulate interest in the Festival?

This will all get better as we go on. In all my experience I have never known an exhibition so nearly complete at the time of opening.

As regards visitors who were dissatisfied on the opening day, did they ask for their money back?

National Finance

Food Subsidies And Personal Expenditure

51.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the average weekly cost per person for food subsidies; and what is the estimated amount spent weekly per person on drink, tobacco and gambling combined.

Approximately 3s. 2d. and 18s. 10d., respectively. The latter figure is based on the estimated gross expenditure in January, and excludes winnings.

After deducting an amount for winnings, does not the Chancellor think it seems to suggest that we have a wrong sense of values? Ought not something to be done about it?

Colonial Pensioners (Tax)

52.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will extend the exemption from United Kingdom Income Tax, accorded to United States Government pensioners who are domiciled in the United Kingdom and who pay Income Tax on their pensions at source, to British colonial pensioners who are domiciled in the United Kingdom and who pay Income Tax on their pensions at source.

I assume that the hon. Member has in mind the exemptions provided under double taxation agreements. Exemption from United Kingdom tax does not extend to pensioners of the United States Government who are British nationals, unless they happen also to be United States nationals. United States pensioners who are British nationals and not United States nationals are charged to United Kingdom tax if resident in the United Kingdom, as are, in general, colonial pensioners resident in the United Kingdom, but credit is given by the United Kingdom for the corresponding United States or colonial tax. I see no reason for varying the existing arrangements.

Post-War Credits

53.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why interest is not being paid on outstanding Post-war Credits.

There is no right to interest on outstanding Post-war Credits, and it was never intended that interest should be paid or accrue prior to repayment of the credit itself.

Is the Chancellor aware that the "Income Tax Quiz" published by His Majesty's Stationery Office says, on page 21:

"Does the Post-war Credit bear interest? Answer: It will bear interest as from some date after the end of the war."
Can the Chancellor say when that date will be fixed, for the benefit of the people who put their money in to help during the war?

Is the Chancellor aware that under the existing system the last Post-war Credit will not be repaid until 1988, by which time the Government will have had the interest-free use of this money for 47 years?

56.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is now the approximate total of outstanding Post-war Credits; and if he can give any estimate of the year in which payments of these credits on a substantial scale can be commenced.

About £611 million. As I said in the Budget debate on 16th April, we cannot afford to speed up the rate of repayment this year, and I cannot say now when it will be possible to do this.

Can we appeal for a greater measure of consistency in the Treasury? Does the Chancellor of the Exchequer not recall that he recently justified the rather remarkable Financial Agreement with the Egyptian Government on the ground of the moral obligation involved? Surely the people who own these Post-war Credits are equally entitled to consideration.

How does the amount outstanding compare with the amount already paid out?

Will the Chancellor take into consideration the cases of old people or people who are ill or in want, and give them special consideration by the repayment of their Post-war Credits?

It is already done in the case of people reaching the age of 65 in the case of men, and of 60 in the case of women.

Central Planning Staff

54.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will define the functions and membership of the Central Planning Staff.

The Central Economic Planning Staff is a division of the Treasury under the Chief Planning Officer, which is responsible for advising on the co-ordination of general economic policy. Nearly all the members of the planning staff are permanent civil servants, some of whom are seconded from other Departments.

Does the present Chancellor find it satisfactory to have this body of senior civil servants ruling the roost? Does he not find that they destroy the sense of responsibility for forming policy among departmental Ministers?

Can the Chancellor confirm the statement made in "The Observer" last week-end that Sir Edwin Plowden is leaving the Central Planning Staff at the end of this year? Is it intended to appoint a successor?

That is quite a different question, but I should like to say, Mr. Speaker, that I understand that the company from which Sir Edwin Plowden has leave of absence has intimated that it will continue that leave of absence until the end of the present year.

Would the Chancellor publish the names of the Central Planning Staff in HANSARD?

I think it is contrary to precedent to publish the names of civil servants in any particular division.

This is a matter of vital importance, because these men have very great power and are not acting in a purely Civil Service capacity. Is there not very good ground for breaking precedent in this case?

They are ordinary civil servants acting in an ordinary Civil Service capacity and subject to the direction of the Minister. Their names are, I think, published in the ordinary reference books.

Does the information which the Chancellor gave to my hon. Friend mean that Sir Edwin has decided to see the Government out?

American Citizens (Purchase Tax)

55.