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Oral Answers To Questions

Volume 487: debated on Wednesday 9 May 1951

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Royal Air Force

Naval Aviation And Coastal Command

3.

asked the Secretary of State for Air what representations he has received from the Admiralty on the advisability of unifying Naval Aviation and Royal Air Force Coastal Command under central Admiralty control; and whether he will make a statement.

This matter has not been under examination since the principles governing the operation of shore-based aircraft in naval warfare were reviewed in 1946. The second part of the Question does not therefore arise.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the 1st May issue of "Aviation Report," a copy of which I sent him, states that the Government are planning a new move to unify naval aviation and the Royal Air Force Coastal Command under central Admiralty control? While having the greatest admiration for and pride in the Royal Navy, may I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman, particularly in view of the excellent operational record of Coastal Command during the last war, if he will give an assurance that the House will have full time to consider any move so serious as this, which may mean the transference of the Royal Air Force Coastal Command to the Royal Navy?

No discussions have been taking place, and no transfer of Coastal Command is contemplated.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentle- man not agree that as Coastal Command was under naval operational control in the war, and is at present quite inadequate and not being looked after properly, it may be handled more sympathetically and with more keenness by the Royal Navy?

In the last war, did not Coastal Command operate very successfully under the orders of the Royal Navy?

New Flying Boat

4.

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is sponsoring any further research or construction of aircraft capable of alighting on water, either of the high-speed fighter or the large transport or bomber types.

A project is under consideration for a flying boat to replace the Sunderland for maritime reconnaissance. In addition, as I stated in reply to the hon. Member for Hendon, North (Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing), on 14th March, it has been decided that the three Princess flying boats should be completed for the Royal Air Force.

Can the Secretary of State say whether his Department is doing any research into the future of very large aircraft which, when they become large enough, may be more economical if they have planing hulls rather than increasingly heavy undercarriages?

I am advised that the project under consideration is for a flying boat powered with four gas turbine engines, twice the weight of the Sunderland and with a much greater speed.

Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman say what firms are undertaking this work, or whether it is entirely Departmental research?

F86 Aircraft

5.

asked the Secretary of State for Air what progress he has made in his negotiations for the purchase of North American F86 Sabre jet fighter aircraft for the Royal Air Force.

The question of the supply of F86 aircraft to the Royal Air Force under the Mutual Defence Assistance Programme is still under discussion with the United States Government. I am unable to say when the discussions will be finalised.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman finalise these discussions as fast as he possibly can, because of the present lack of suitable British fighters in the Royal Air Force?

Does my right hon. and learned Friend's answer mean that the advanced types demonstrated at Hendon last year are not yet in production?

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman finalise his use of the word "finalise"?

Auxiliary Squadrons

6.

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will consider the formation of squadrons of the Royal Auxiliary Air Force based on the large towns and cities of southern Hampshire, such as Portsmouth, Southampton, Winchester and Bournemouth.

I regret that it is not possible for me to agree to consider the early formation of additional Royal Auxiliary Air Force Squadrons in southern Hampshire as suggested, since for the time being our resources are fully committed to the major expansion of the front line strength of the Regular Air Force which is now in progress. I will, however, consider this suggestion again when the expansion programme is further advanced.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman bear in mind that the large cities and towns of southern Hampshire are renowned for their large contributions to our Armed Forces, and will he, as soon as the aircraft supply position permits, take up this subject afresh?

9.

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will make plans to provide auxiliary squadrons with more, and newer, aircraft during their three months' training period, in view of the fact that the aircraft now being used, having flown many hours in regular squadrons, have a low serviceability, and that this may result in pilots getting inadequate flying time.

Of the 20 auxiliary squadrons, nine will carry out their training on new Vampire 5's. While the remaining 11 have been re-equipped with jet aircraft previously used by Regular squadrons, I am advised that such aircraft do not have a low serviceability. Everything possible is being done to ensure that auxiliary pilots will be able to get in, sufficient flying time to derive full advantage from the operational training which they will receive during their period of call-up.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman not aware that some of the squadrons equipped with aircraft which have already been used by the Regular squadrons have only two aircraft serviceable at the end of a week-end's flying? Is he making plans to provide these extra 11 auxiliary squadrons with new aircraft so that there is a higher serviceability record and, therefore, more training done?

I should like, first, to establish the facts. If the hon. Member will be good enough to give me the names of the squadrons he has in mind. I will certainly look into his suggestion.

Women Pilots

7.

asked the Secretary of State for Air what plans the Government has for creating a source of women pilots for duties as flying instructors and in the Air Transport Auxiliary, in view of the fact that private flying sources have now virtually dried up.

A flying branch has been created in the Women's Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve to provide a reserve of women pilots for communication flying and for staff pilot appointments at certain training establishments and for employment on ferrying duties, if required. Many former members of the Air Trans- port Auxiliary have joined but there are still vacancies and any woman under 30 who has a private pilot's licence can apply.

Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman not agree that the object of this Question is to find a new source of women pilots as the present source is now drying up? Could he suggest a Government measure by which the could assist flying clubs and thus help the cause of private people learning to fly? If something is not done in that-direction, he will have no recruits, as he himself has said that they must have a pilot's certificate before they are eligible for this reserve.

As the hon. Gentleknows, it was announced more than a year ago that we were reducing the standard from 100 hours to 30 hours, and I think that should have been of considerable assistance to those seeking to become pilots.

Is the drying up of the source of women pilots due to the narrowness of the bottleneck?

Training Aircraft

8.

asked the Secretary of State for Air what steps are being taken to provide a more advanced type of aircraft to bridge the training gap between the Chipmunks and the operational jets which volunteer reserve pilots will be required to fly, if mobilised.

Pilots of the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve called up for three months' training will fly Harvards and Spitfires before going on to Vampires. For normal training purposes it is hoped shortly to introduce into Reserve Flying Schools the Prentice, which will provide more advanced training than the Chipmunk. Those Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve pilots, however, who have not had three months' training and who have only been able to train on Chipmunks would, on mobilisation, receive further training as necessary before flying operational jet aircraft.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman satisfied that he has sufficient aircraft to train sufficient pilots for this Reserve, because we may not have time to convert these pilots whose only experience is on Chipmunks into operational pilots in an emergency?

It is not only a question of aircraft but of training capacity generally. As the hon. Member knows, we have authority to ask for up to 1,000 R.A.F. V.R. pilots to undergo three months' training this year. Frankly, however, our capacity would not permit of us taking the whole 1,000 at one time. We have to stagger them at about 150 for each period.

Civil Aviation

Helicopter Services

10.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation, in view of the development of a twin engine helicopter, what consideration will be given to the possibility of a helicopter passenger station over the Charing Cross railway station, because of that site's several advantages in a built-up area.

The Interdepartmental Helicopter Committee reached the conclusion in their recently published Report that initially commercial helicopter services should be introduced on cross-country routes and not on routes radiating from London where transport services are already highly developed. While, therefore, the selection of sites for rotor stations in the Central London area is not so urgent a problem, I should be glad to discuss a site at Charing Cross with my hon. Friend.

If I send to my hon. Friend plans and explanatory matter as the result of much hard work and study of a special helicopter drome at Charing Cross or nearby, would he see that they are given careful consideration?

I have a great respect for my hon. Friend's energy and imagination in this matter, and I will look into any plans which he sends along.

Would the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the railway services to the provincial cities are still very much worse than they were before the war, and that if such a scheme were put into operation it would mean a considerable saving in time for foreign visitors wishing to visit provincial industrial areas, for example, the British Industries Fair at Birmingham?.

I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman's desire for first priority, but I think that some of the right hon. Gentleman's Scottish colleagues might wish for first priority to be given to their areas.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that the more London traffic increases, the greater will be the traffic jams, which makes the need for my hon. Friend's scheme all the more necessary?

Does the Parliamentary Secretary realise that opportunities for a new helicopter service between Birmingham and London, which are our two main cities——

We are now dealing with Charing Cross, which is rather different from Birmingham.

Services (Yorkshire And Lancashire)

12.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation if he will make a statement with regard to the chartered air services between Yeadon and London.

19.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation what plans are in hand to arrange an air service from the West Riding of Yorkshire to London in the near future; and when this service is likely to open.

20.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation what steps are being taken to replace the air services between London and Leeds—Bradford, Manchester, Blackpool, and Liverpool, formerly provided by the Lancashire Aircraft Corporation.

21.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation if he is aware of the decision of his Area Transport Advisory Council which has caused the suspension of the London—Leeds—Bradford air service; and if he will take steps to restore this, the only air service between London and Yorkshire.

22.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation if he will make a statement upon his refusal to grant the necessary authorisation or licence for a sufficient number of years to permit the commercial running of charter air services from Yeadon (Leeds—Bradford) Airport and Northolt.

On the recommendation of the Air Transport Advisory Council, my noble Friend, in January, approved applications from the Lancashire Aircraft Corporation to operate associate services between Northolt and the various places mentioned for varying periods up to five years. In April, my noble Friend was informed that this company had decided not to operate any of the services so authorised unless they were granted five-year agreements on all the routes. The-Air Transport Advisory Council will, of course, consider any further applications for these routes but it seems unlikely that another private company can now provide sufficient resources to operate the services in question this year. The question of the services being operated next year, either separately or as part of an integrated network, is being examined.

Is the Minister aware that on the information available to me from the Lancashire Aircraft Corporation they were only too ready to operate the service if a five-year agreement could be provided as any lesser period would not allow them to get a reasonable return for their capital outlay? His decision means, in effect, that some of these services are left without any connection at all. This is very keenly felt in the Leeds and Bradford area.

I am well aware of the information from the Lancashire Aircraft Corporation. I appreciate their difficulty, and we are intending to discuss these matters with that Corporation in the very near future.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that there is now no link by air between London and Yorkshire, and that the West Riding service was used by industrialists and West Riding Members of Parliament? Will he be good enough to receive a deputation, so that we can put before him the case for granting a five-year lease for a service between Leeds and London?

Speaking for myself, and, I am sure, for my noble Friend, we would be glad to receive a deputation. I would point out that there is often a very big gap between the rather vague estimates of traffic capacity put forward by Members of the House and the actual revenue received by the operating companies, and that it is because this particular company do not think that it is a profitable route that they are not operating this year.

If application is made to operate a service from Yeadon to London for a period of five years, would the hon. Gentleman agree to the granting of a licence for that purpose?

Is the hon. Gentleman not misleading the House? The company are not refusing to operate the routes on the ground that they are not profitable in the general sense, but because they cannot purchase aircraft to use for only two or three years; they must have some guarantee of continuity.

I am not misleading the House. Permission to operate the service for five years was granted.

Cross-Country Routes

13.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation what steps he proposes to take in order to give effect to the recommendation of the Air Transport Advisory Council in their report of 8th February, 1951, that the public should not be denied the benefit of air travel on cross-country routes.

I have nothing at present to add to the statement which my noble Friend issued with the report.

Does the Minister not realise that this means that cross-country air services are in a very unsatisfactory state and that companies, contrary to the statement which he made in this House earlier, cannot re-equip their fleets in a period of five years unless they have remunerative as well as unremunerative routes?

I appreciate that. If we give the remunerative routes to one set of operators, we are obviously taking them away from another set of operators, and someone has to bear the uneconomic burden. The question is who should bear that burden.

In view of the promise made by the hon. Gentleman's predecessor that cross-country routes would be added to considerably when air transport was nationalised, can he say what has happened to that promise, since Errol Aerodrome has now become a speedway track and no use is made of it for flying?

I would like to see that Question on the Order Paper before I give the information for which the hon. and gallant Gentleman asks. Ninety-seven associate agreements have been granted this year and they are pretty well all in respect of these so-called cross country routes. We ought not to underestimate the progress that has been made.

I beg to give notice that if there is time before a change of Government, I will raise this matter on the Adjournment.

Radio Operators (Licences)

14.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation what representations he has received from the airways corporations or the charter companies that the requirements for the new first-class civil R/T and W/T licence are so strict that difficulty is being experienced in engaging sufficient men with this qualification to meet all demands.

I have received no representations in the sense indicated. I should perhaps add that a small number of radio operators were recently granted a short extension of their old type licences to enable them to complete their examinations for the new licence.

Will the Minister re-examine the qualifications required for the new licence? My information is that only about one-third of the number of radio operators who held the previous licence have been able to qualify for the new one.

I was looking at the qualifications this morning. If the hon. Gentleman, who has some experience in these matters, can tell me which of the requirements he thinks is unnecessarily high I shall be glad to look into the matter again.

Passengers (Insurance)

15 and 16.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation (1) what requirements as to compulsory insurance have to be complied with by passenger-carrying civil aircraft before licence to operate is granted;

(2) whether the passengers in the aircraft of Fairflight Limited which crashed at Llandow, Glamorganshire, were fully covered by insurance.

An operator's liability towards the passengers carried in his aircraft is governed by the Carriage by Air Act, 1932, which gives effect to the Warsaw Convention, 1929. Under the terms of the Act an operator engaged on an international journey, as defined in the Convention, has absolute liability in respect of death or injury to passengers. He is not, however, required to cover this legal liability by insurance. The Act does not at present apply to non-international flights, and an operator can, in his contract of carriage, disclaim any liability towards his passengers on such a flight. In the case of the Llandow accident, the extent of the operator's liability turns mainly on the question whether the flight between Dublin and Cardiff should be treated as international or non-international. This is a question which, in the last resort, the courts must decide.

Am I to understand from my hon. Friend's reply that passengers on such flights as this are not protected by insurance in the way that a motorist has to protect his passengers by insurance?

The passengers take the ticket under the terms of the contract at the time. In some cases there is cover and in others not.

Is not this a matter of general public interest, which ought to be looked at again? In so far as charter companies and public carriers by aeroplane, are, as I take it, relieved of the obligation to pay reasonable com- pensation to passengers, does that not conflict with the practice of other carrying companies in this country?

There seems to be some confusion. They are not relieved of any obligation; they have an obligation. The only question here is whether there should be a compulsory requirement to insure. All these operators do, in fact, insure.

Where a firm is unable to meet the compensation liabilities and may go bankrupt, is it not unjust that the families of those killed in an accident should have no compensation because there is no legal requirement for insurance?

I think there is a good deal in what my hon. Friend says although, in practice, it does not work out that way. As I said, in regard to this accident there is a very difficult problem to solve. I do not know whether my hon. Friend would like to give an opinion on the point I mentioned. As for the wider point, I agree that there is an unsatisfactory feature, and we are considering it now.

In view of the seriousness of this question and so that we may have further information about it, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment at the first convenient opportunity.

Fire, London Airport

17.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation what is the estimated cost of the damage to buildings, stores and equipment, caused by the recent fire at London Airport; whether such losses were fully covered by insurance; and in what sums were the damaged spare parts insured.

I am not yet in a position to make a statement on the total cost of the damage. The building, which is the property of His Majesty's Government, is fully covered by commercial insurance taken out by British Overseas Airways Corporation as tenants. Insurance of the stores and equipment belonging to B.O.A.C. is a matter of management for the Corporation, but I understand that items of fixed equipment destroyed were insured in the open market while the risks on the other contents were borne by the Corporation.

Is the hon. Gentleman yet able to say what was the cause of the fire which led to these losses, and will he deny the suggestion that it was the result of sabotage?

Does not the information which the hon. Gentleman has just given conflict with what he said last week? Has he any idea whether the value of the spares which were not insured was about £500,000?

What I said last week was that I understood that the equipment was insured. What I have said today is that items of fixed equipment were insured in the open market. Therefore, there is not such a contradiction as the hon. Gentleman suggests.

Did not the Minister say that the spares were not insured? Has he any idea whether the value was about £500,000?

Are not the security arrangements at London Airport the responsibility of the hon. Gentleman's Ministry and not that of the Corporation? Is he aware that the arrangements are at present totally unrealistic and inadequate?

It is always possible to spend more money on security arrangements. Whether they are totally inadequate or not is another matter. I agree that they should be re-examined, and they are being re-examined.

Last week the hon. Gentleman was asked not about the fixed equipment but the stores and equipment and whether that was insured, and he informed the House that it was insured. Should he not at least apologise for his error?

I do not think that any apology is called for. I was asked in a supplementary question last week if I thought that the equipment was insured. What I said was that I understood the equipment was insured. I am now telling the House that fixed equipment was insured in the open market and that spares—the moveable equipment—the value of which I am unaware, were covered by the internal arrangements of the Corporation.

Solent Aircraft (Sale)

18.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation if he is now in a position to give further information as to the disposal of the Solents.

All that I can add to the information given to my hon. Friend on 21st March is that two Solents have been sold under the arrangements stated.

Is my hon. Friend aware that two-thirds of the spares of the Solents have been sold to an organisation known as the International Air Sales Corporation and that the Corporation will be able to hold up to ransom any future purchaser of the Solents so far as the spares are concerned? Would it not have been in the interests of the taxpayer if the Ministry's agent had sold the spares directly to the public, instead of to the Corporation?

I am not aware of that fact, although I know that my hon. Friend is usually very well informed in these matters. I will look into the matter which he has raised.

Comet Aircraft

23.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation in view of the consultations that have taken place between his Department and British Overseas Airways Corporation, and his consent having been obtained in ordering through the Ministry of Supply the new fleet of 14 Comet aircraft, what mark of Comet has been ordered.

Of the 14 aircraft ordered, nine will be Ghost Comets and the remainder will be Avon Comets to a specification still to be finalised.

Has my hon. Friend received from B.O.A.C. any calculations to show conclusively that these aircraft will be capable of operating profitably on the longer sections of the routes? Since this matter will show up sooner or later in operation, can the information be published?

I should have thought that the answer to the second part of that supplementary question would have been "No, Sir." As to the first part, as the hon. Gentleman knows, trials are now bing carried out.

Boac Employees (Dismissals)

24.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation if, in view of the investigation made by him into alleged dismissals from the British Overseas Airways Corporation, he has any information to give.

British Overseas Airways Corporation have issued a statement which shows that the allegations of my hon. Friend that the two employees, to whom he refers, had been dismissed because they had communicated with a Member of Parliament, are without foundation. With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I will circulate this statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

I must also point out that, contrary to the statement made by my hon. Friend, the comprehensive review by the Ministry of Civil Aviation of the organisation and activities of International Aeradio Limited did not "admit" nor "prove" the complaints lodged by him from August, 1947. I also disclaim the statement of my hon. Friend that he had been informed that there was "no hope of justice being done" in this case. What, in fact, my predecessor stated in November, 1949, and I confirmed in June, 1950, was that if these employees wished to appeal against their discharge they should do so through the proper Appeals Machinery provided by the Corporation.

Will my hon. Friend make his statement quite clear? Does he mean to say that there was no evidence to suggest that International Aeradio, Limited, was in some measure inefficient? If he had obtained some information and evidence from the two ex-employees at the same time as he obtained the information from the officials of the Corporation and his Department, does he not think that his observations would have been a little different?

A very careful investigation was made at the time, which was, I believe, at the end of 1948 and in 1949, and the report said that the charges made by my hon. Friend were not justified.

Will my hon. Friend use his influence with the Government to have set up a Select Committee to inquire into the matter, so that it can be studied by an independent body?

That is for the House to decide, I should have thought. With respect to my hon. Friend, whose sincerity of purpose I do not dispute, I should have thought that it was as wrong to have an inquiry into every allegation he brings forward as it would be for the Government to resign every time they were requested to do so by the hon. Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers).

Following is the statement:

B.O.A.C. state that the two employees mentioned by Mr. Cooper, M.P., in his statement in the House of Commons on 26th April were not at any time associated with International Aeradio. The senior employee was already in charge of the B.O.A.C. signals organisation at the time of the formation of I.A.L. and continued in that capacity until he was declared redundant at the end of 1949, when his post was abolished as part of the general reorganisation of the Corporation which had been in progress since the early part of that year.
The junior employee entered the service of the Corporation as a signals officer on 25th February, 1946, and was discharged on redundancy on 28th February, 1950. Although according to the records of the Corporation, he was found fit for world-wide service on entering their employment, he does not appear to have applied to join International Aeradio in a capacity for which he was suitable during the period of his service with B.O.A.C. He did apply in July, 1948, for the post of Company secretary, for which he was not regarded as possessing the necessary qualifications.
Like the senior employee, his discharge on redundancy followed the general reorganisation of B.O.A.C. The decision to terminate the services of 11 officers, including the junior employee in question, was agreed with representatives of the Radio Officers' Union at a meeting on 9th January, 1950. Among these 11 officers were employees with as much as eight to 13 years' service with the Corporation compared with the four years' service of the employee in question. The discharge of these two officers on redundancy was a natural corollary of the reorganisation of B.O.A.C. in the course of which the post held by the senior employee was abolished. The redundancies were carried out with due regard to the procedure agreed under the National Joint Council for Civil Air Transport.
Sir Victor Tait, whose name has been joined with this charge by Mr. Cooper, and other officials of B.O.A.C., have learnt for the first time that either of these employees has been in touch with Mr. Cooper. There is, therefore, no truth in the suggestion that the termination of the services of these two employees is in any way connected with their conveying information to a Member of Parliament.

Defence Plans (Turkey And Greece)

25.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps have been taken or are in contemplation to secure the co-operation of Turkey and Greece in the defence scheme of the Near and Middle East through the Eastern Mediterranean Planning Board of the Atlantic Pact Organisation.

Since the Near and Middle East are outside the North Atlantic area, their defence is not the direct responsibility of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, which has no Eastern Mediterranean Planning Board. It has, however, been agreed, under a decision of the North Atlantic Council, that Turkey and Greece shall be associated with North Atlantic Treaty planning for the Mediterranean and the appropriate organisation for this purpose is under consideration. Preliminary discussions have already taken place between military representatives of Turkey and Greece and the North Atlantic Standing Group.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there is considerable feeling in both Turkey and Greece about their apparent exclusion from the organisation for the defence of the Mediterranean? Will he also bear in mind that Turkey is the largest military Power in the Middle East today, having an army equal to any in Europe?

I am aware of the considerations which my hon. Friend has put forward, and I will most certainly keep them in mind.

Does not the Foreign Secretary think that now that Turkey is doing planning within the North Atlantic Pact Organisation, it is time for some extension of the North Atlantic Pact to cover the Middle East under some separate organisation?

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that in view of the geographical situation of Turkey and Greece, the effectiveness of the North Atlantic Treaty is largely offset unless there is active co-operation and some plan which brings Turkey and Greece into the whole set-up?

We are not yet on the basis of association. I can assure the House that we are not unsympathetic towards what hon. Members are seeking.

In view of the very fine and outstanding fighting qualities that the Turkish contingent has shown in Korea, will the Foreign Secretary say what prospect there is of having a fairly close integration of the available Turkish Armed Forces in the Forces available to defend the Middle East?

I am very well aware of the admirable and courageous contribution of the Turkish Forces in Korea. As I have said, we are not unsympathetic about it and will do everything we can to the end in view.

Ukraine (Broadcasts)

26.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many times have broadcasts in Ukrainian been sent out under the foreign broadcasts scheme in the last 12 months.

No broadcasts in Ukrainian have been transmitted by the B.B.C. during the last year.

In view of the fact that until they were forced into submission by the Russians, the Ukrainians were developing towards a democratic form of government and have always been hostile to Russian domination, does not my right hon. Friend agree that there are some 30 million potential allies behind the Iron Curtain, and could not broadcasts in their language be started in order to help them keep up their morale and resistance?

I understand that practically all the Ukrainians can speak and understand Russian and that if we made a special arrangement with regard to the Ukrainian language, it is highly probable that something else would have to be given up. On a balance of considerations we do not think that it would be advantageous.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that last week the Home Secretary told us that there were between 30,000 and 40,000 Ukrainians here, who could well broadcast and would like to listen to some broadcasts in their own language?

If they are here long enough they will understand English. In any case, I should not like to let loose 30,000 or 40,000 Ukrainians to broadcast to the Ukraine.

Has not Ukrainian hostility been directed more against Poland than against their northern neighbours?

In view of that outrageous remark by the Foreign Secretary about people who have done very loyal work for this country, I beg to give notice that I propose to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

On a point of order. Is it in order, when an hon. Member makes an attack and gives notice to raise the matter on the Adjournment, for the Minister concerned thereby to be excluded from answering him?

That is a difficult point. It is, of course, out of order to say "in view of that outrageous remark." The usual thing to say is "in view of the unsatisfactory answer."

I withdraw my remark and substitute "very unsatisfactory answer," in order to see what the Foreign Secretary has to say.

I based my remark solely on the numbers that it was proposed should broadcast.

China (Detained British Nationals)

27.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many British nationals are known to be serving prison sentences in China.

So far as is known only one British subject, Mr. Charles Archer, is serving a prison sentence in China. He was convicted on a charge of murder in 1947. Four citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies, six Canadian citizens and three Australian citizens are held in detention by the Chinese authorities. They are not under sentence, and it has not so far been possible to ascertain when they will be brought up for trial.

Will the right hon. Gentleman continue to give close attention to this matter, as he will know that the Americans have discovered, by watching the situation closely, that many of their nationals, of whom they had no knowledge, are, in fact, either prisoners or suffering from considerable hardship at the hands of the Chinese?

I will certainly see that the matter is closely watched. We have made representations.

Japan

British Representation

28.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is now delaying the appointment of a successor to Sir Alvary Gascoigne as head of the United Kingdom Liaison Mission in Japan.

The question of appointing a successor to Sir Alvary Gascoigne is under consideration, but I have at present nothing to add to the answer given on the 16th April to the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion Division (Mr. Teeling).

Is the Foreign Secretary aware that, owing to the vacuum which has been caused by the departure of General MacArthur, and, in addition, because of the negotiations at present going on about a peace treaty, it is of the very greatest importance that a new representative of ambassadorial rank should be appointed forthwith?

We have a senior officer of considerable competence acting for us in Japan. We are considering the matter, but if the peace treaty is concluded at a reasonably early date, there is something to be said for waiting so that we can have the same person as full ambassador when the new regime starts. I will watch the timing of it, because that may not be possible.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that it was in the middle of February that Sir Alvary Gascoigne left; that it is rather long to leave this matter; and that the Japanese people will believe that we are literally giving up our position?

I do not think so, because we have a very competent officer there. I will continue to watch the matter.

Quite apart from the question of representation, the right hon. Gentleman referred to the peace treaty. May I ask him to bear in mind that many of us would like to know what is going on about that treaty? We do not want to be committed to something we know absolutely nothing about.

Will my right hon. Friend take into account, in this matter, the very great importance which is attached in a country like Japan to questions of status and rank? Does he not think it necessary, at a time when a treaty is under discussion, that we should be represented in Japan by an officer of the highest rank?

In view of the importance of co-ordinating policy in connection with the shipment of materials between Japan and China, is it not very important that we should have an officer of the highest rank in Japan at present?

Bonds (British Holders)

30.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what proposals he has in mind to safeguard the rights of British holders of Japanese bonds in regard to the forthcoming peace treaty with Japan.

I can assure the hon. and gallant Member that His Majesty's Government have the whole question of Japan's pre-war debts and her obligations in respect of her sterling loans very much in mind. I am, however, not yet able to state what proposals we have made in this matter.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that many of these Japanese bondholders are people in modest circumstances, who have been seriously harassed by the absolute lack of interest for so many years past?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say if the money invested in Japanese bonds was used to finance companies producing strategic materials which were used against us in the last war? In view of the indignation on the part of the Opposition recently about strategic raw materials, will he undertake to cancel these things?

Following what has just been said by the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes), will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that a large proportion of these Japanese bonds were raised to help after the Tokyo earthquake?

Peace Treaty

31.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what Departments, other than the Foreign Office, have sent officials to Washington to discuss the forthcoming peace treaty with Japan in recent weeks; what officials and from which Departments have been sent to Tokyo to discuss the peace treaty; and if he will give an assurance that the repayment of pre-war loans and debts are amongst the subjects they are discussing.

The Board of Trade has sent one official to Washington in recent weeks. The answer to the second part of the Question is, "None, Sir." The answer to the third part of the Question is, "Yes, Sir."

Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why it is that the high official to whom he referred earlier was sent to Tokyo with the idea that Sir Alvary Gascoigne would, on his return, represent this country at Washington during the peace treaty talks? In view of the fact that that has not happened, will he make quite sure that in any future negotiations, especially with Mr. Dulles, not only the Foreign Office but the Treasury and all other Departments concerned will take an active part?

We will take whatever is the most suitable course, and see that the Government are adequately served by appropriate officials. I hope hon. Members will not incite us to send too many civil servants to Washington.

I do not want to incite the right hon. Gentleman to do that, but to incite him about this, that the House is very much interested in the Japanese peace treaty. I would ask him to bear in mind that I do not think there has ever been a peace treaty on which less information has been given to the House of Commons than appears to be given in this case.

I understand the right hon. Gentleman's point of view, but I think he is a little unreasonable because we have not got very far yet. But there will come a time—[An HON. MEMBER: "Does the right hon. Gentleman know how far he has got?"] We have not got so far that it is right that I should say how far we have got, but there will come a time when the House must be consulted about the matter.

Anti-British Propaganda, United States

29.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps His Majesty's Ambassador in Washington is taking to combat the anti-British propaganda in the United States of America, directed to a boycott of British goods.

His Majesty's Ambassador at Washington has reported one public advertisement directed to a boycott of British goods. The best answer to misrepresentations of our policy is, of course, the truth. The British Embassy and Information Service in the United States are at all times engaged in explaining the true facts about the position and policy of His Majesty's Government in trade as in other matters.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have in my hand a large display advertisement from an American provincial newspaper with the legend "Don't buy British," followed by an appeal not to buy British goods? Is this incident unique, as he makes out?

I am advised it is unique. I do not think there is any need for the hon. Gentleman to lie awake at night worrying about it. It is not too bad.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that anti-British propaganda has been continued in the United States by hon. Members opposite and their Friends for the past six years?

Germany (Paternity Allowances)

32.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what provision is made for the payment of paternity allow ances in respect of the illegitimate children of German women and British soldiers.

A British soldier in Germany may draw part of his pay in Deutschemarks for the purpose of contributing to the maintenance of a child there. After his return to this country, it is also possible for him to remit money to Ger-many for this purpose.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of considerable hardship in a number of these cases. Would he again consider the question of a compulsory obligation in respect of these children?

I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's point, but it cannot be done under existing legal provisions. It would require legislation and I am not sure that that would be easy.

Would it not be more correct to describe these children as the natural children of illegitimate parents?

Will my right hon. Friend reconsider this position when we come to the point of substituting a defence agreement for the Occupation Statute? It is something which is causing considerable feeling there.

Cuba (British-Owned Railways)

33.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware of the proposals being made for the nationalisation of the British-owned United Railways of Havana; if any discussion has taken place with Cuba on this subject; and if he will make a, statement.

The President of Cuba has publicly stated that he favours the nationalisation of the United Railways of Havana through Act of Congress; but I understand that no positive step has been taken. The Cuban Government have been made aware of His Majesty's Government's interest in this question, but I should prefer to make no detailed statement at this stage. His Majesty's Government are in close touch with the Company.

On a smaller and less important scale, is not this rather similar to what has happened in the Persian oilfields; and should not the right hon. Gentleman initiate discussions on his own account so that we shall not be faced with a fait accompli, as in that case? Further, does the right hon. Gentleman know anything about the possible compensation terms that might be offered, and, lastly, does he not think it rather an odd suggestion, so soon after the conclusion of the Cuban Trade Agreement, which so many of us think highly prejudicial to British imperial interests?

I am not at all sure that it is on a footing comparable to the activities in Persia in regard to the oilfields.

Korea

General Macarthur (Speeches And Evidence)

35.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will arrange for the published speeches and evidence of General MacArthur with relation to the Korean campaign to be placed in the Library of the House.

I will arrange to place in the Library of the House the text of General MacArthur's speech before the Joint Meeting of Congress and, when available, the printed transcript of the present hearings of the Senate Armed Services and Foreign Relations Committees, to the extent that these are made public.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that answer, may I ask if he is aware that many important statements made by General MacArthur have not been published at all in the British Press, including his statement that he regards the British as being the best friends of America in the world, and the explicit statement from him that he does not support American troops being committed to the mainland of China?

If my right hon. Friend is placing this evidence in the Library, would he also place in the Library subsequent evidence, such as that of General Marshall, which shows how completely inaccurate some of General MacArthur's evidence was?

Bible Society's Property, Seoul

36.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to what extent the property of the British and Foreign Bible Society in Seoul has been destroyed; and whether steps will be taken to ensure that compensation is paid for the Bibles destroyed.

According to information supplied to His Majesty's Charge d'Affaires in Korea by the local Korean representative of the British and Foreign Bible Society, the only building in Seoul, which he knows to have belonged to the Society, was totally destroyed between June and October, 1950. As regards compensation for Bibles destroyed, it is doubtful whether it will be possible to obtain any such reparation, but, in any event, this is a matter that will be within the competence of the United Nations when the fighting has ceased.

Has the Foreign Secretary any information as to whether this was the result of indiscriminate bombing or was the building destroyed by the heathen Chinese or the civilised Americans?

I do not know, but I am certain that my hon. Friend will think the worst about it.

In view of that remark I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.

West Indies (Federation)

38.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he has any progress to report in respect to a customs union or federation in the West Indies.

As regards a customs union I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave him on 14th February. The report has not yet been discussed by any of the British Caribbean legislatures. As regards federation, I would refer to the answer which I gave my hon. Friend the Member for Accrington (Mr. H. Hynd) on 14th March. The position is unchanged.

Hong Kong (Smuggling)

39.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that there has been a recent seizure of gold from a British vessel bound from Singapore to Hong Kong; and if he will ensure that the security measures in these two ports are adequate to prevent smuggling of this nature.

I have asked for a report from the Governors concerned, and I will communicate with the hon. Member when I have the full facts.

West Africa

Cocoa Prices

40.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the current price being paid for cocoa to West African producers; and how this compares with the present world marketing figure.

The prices which the marketing boards are paying to producers for the 1950–51 season are: in the Gold Coast, about £130 a ton; in Nigeria, £120 a ton for Grade I main crop; in Sierra Leone, about £121 a ton for Grade I and Grade II.

Prices in world markets fluctuate greatly, but ruling prices in April, 1951, were around £300. Out of this the boards have, of course, to meet substantial charges. These include the commission of licensed buying agents, the expenses of transport, shipping and administration and heavy export duties. In the case, for example, of the Gold Coast, the export duties will amount this season to perhaps £55 a ton. Any profits made by the boards are used by them to build up a price stabilisation reserve, or to finance research and development of the industry.

May we take it from that reply that any profits which are made, and which are not immediately given back to the producers, are available for the future development of the industry or for compensation, and that they will not be taken by another outside country?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what the fund to which he referred amounts to?

No, not without notice. I understand that on Friday we are likely to have a debate on this subject. We can possibly deal with a number of questions then.

Groundnuts, Nigeria (Removal)

41.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether there are now any delays in the movement of groundnuts owing to lack of transport in Nigeria; and whether the present facilities are adequate for moving the traffic currently.

The rate of movement of groundnuts on the Nigerian railways has been slowed down by locomotive defects but it is expected that the groundnut crop will all be evacuated before the next buying season begins.

Are not the locomotive defects a matter of long standing? Ought not the difficulty have been disposed of before now? What steps have been taken to overcome it?

Is it not a fact that there have been locomotive defects for the last five years? What are the Government doing to ensure that this scandalous state of affairs is put right?

I do not know about a "scandalous state of affairs," but we have been railing all the groundnuts in the season concerned. We expect to be able to rail all the groundnuts before the next season starts.

Does not the Minister know that the reason why these responsible have been able to rail all the groundnuts is the exceptionally small crop?

Would my right hon. Friend consult the Minister of Transport, with a view to diverting this traffic from the railways by the issue of an adequate quantity of C licences?

Malaya (Police Force)

42.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many armoured vehicles are available to the Malayan police force.

The Malayan police have 118 armoured vehicles on their establishment. In addition, a further 59 armoured personnel carriers for the police will shortly be released from War Office stocks. They will require reconditioning before shipment to Malaya.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman feel that they have a comparatively small number, and that the addition which they are to have is totally inadequate for the purpose? Is it not rather odd that it takes so long to see that these men are provided with proper vehicles?

The hon. Gentleman will be glad to know that I have announced that a further 59 are shortly to be released and sent to them.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the troubles in Malaya have been going on for a long while? I am glad that he has woken up to them at last.

43.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the number of casualties that have been suffered by the Malayan police force whilst being transported in open vehicles.

Statistics for the whole period of the emergency since June, 1948, are not readily available. In November, 1950, however, which was the month in which the highest number of police were killed in ambushes of vehicles, five were killed in ambushes of armoured vehicles and 15 in ambushes of unarmoured vehicles.

44.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many E.Y. rifles are available for the Malayan police force.

South Bank Exhibition (Catering Prices)

45.

asked the Lord Privy Seal what steps have been, and are being, taken to ensure that reasonable prices are charged for food, beverages and drinks at the South Bank Exhibition.

46.

asked the Lord Privy Seal what steps were taken in advance to control the prices charged by the concessionaires to whom the catering arrangements for the South Bank Exhibition were entrusted; what steps have now been taken to check the high prices of which there was widespread complaint on the opening day; and if he will make a statement.

I have been asked to reply. The prices to be charged for the principal items of food and drink were fixed prior to the opening of the South Bank Exhibition, after consultation between the Festival Office and the catering concessionaires. These agreements were in some cases departed from on the opening day. Immediately this became known, the caterers were reminded of the agreements, and certain prices were reduced. The Festival Office are satisfied that the prices now being charged are fair and reasonable, having regard to the need for providing a range of choice to suit all tastes and all pockets.

Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that there were some caterers who took liberties on the opening days? Is it not vital to the success of the Exhibition that prices should be reasonable, particularly at the snack bars? Is my right hon. Friend further aware that I saw some of the official price lists being altered in pencil to higher prices, to match up with customers complaints about the amount they were being charged? These people need to be watched very carefully.

There were some unhappy experiences, but we took prompt action. We shall keep the matter under examination. There are, of course, varied classes of restaurant, about which people will no doubt discriminate, because their prices vary.

May we take it that the Festival Office did not know in advance that one restaurant would have the effrontery to charge 5s. for a light afternoon tea—1s. more than the Ritz Hotel charges? Was the Festival Office simple enough to trust these racketeers not to grab all they could in the way of profits?

The 5s. charge was wrong. The maximum arranged was 3s. Directly it came to the notice of the Festival Office it was put right.

Is it still true that it is impossible to get a cup of coffee anywhere in the South Bank Exhibition for less than 9d.? If so, does my right hon. Friend think that that is a reasonable charge?

Will the tariffs of the various restaurants be displayed outside quite clearly, so that people will know exactly what the charges are before they go in?

Is my right hon. Friend aware that on Friday I was asked 8d. for a very small banana?

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House why it is not possible to buy a glass of good, strong English ale at the Festival of Britain?

I am not sure that the process of cross-examination had better be carried much further, because the witness is beginning to break down in his knowledge of the details.

In view of the extremely anxious state of international affairs could not the Foreign Secretary have found a colleague to reply to these questions for him?

I happen to be here on my own business. I formerly had a responsibility for this matter. My right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal, who is now away, has been helping me, and I do not see why I should not help him. I do not take the superior view of the Foreign Office which the right hon. Gentleman seems to take.

Will the right hon. Gentleman accept it that I was not seeking to rebuke him—[HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."] No, I was not. I was merely expressing the view that is widely held that the right, hon. Gentleman, having taken over responsibilities of unparalleled importance, might want to concentrate upon them.

Now we know that the right hon. Gentleman's remarks were directed as a political attack. I do not mind being politically attacked, but I am not going to accept the view that because a person is Foreign Secretary, he has to be too superior to answer Questions about the Festival of Britain.

Armed Forces

Senior Officers (Salutes)

47.

asked the Minister of Defence how a senior officer when wearing civilian clothes, should acknowledge salutes at a march-past and on other occasions.

If such an occasion arose, it would be customary for the officer to remove his hat and stand to attention.

In case there should be any misunderstanding in this matter, would the Minister see that his answer is given adequate publicity?

If I do not give it publicity, I am certain that there are hon. Members on the other side who will.

Commanders-In-Chief (Committee)

48 and 49.

asked the Minister of Defence (1) if he will make a statement on the recent appointments of Commanders-in-Chief of Home Station, United Kingdom Land Forces and Fighter Command;

(2) which of the higher appointments in the Armed Forces are on a part-time basis; and at what stage in mobilisation plans these appointments become full-time.

50.

asked the Minister of Defence why General Dempsey's position as Chairman of the new Commanders-in-Chief Committee was not made a full-time appointment.

51.

asked the Minister of Defence whether the three posts of Commanders-in-Chief of the Navy, Army, and Air Force for the defence of the United Kingdom are full-time appointments.

53.

asked the Minister of Defence what special arrangements have been made whereby General Sir Miles Dempsey has been enabled to assume his new appointment as Commander-in-Chief Home Forces on a part-time basis.

As announced last week, the Government have decided that the responsibility for the defence of the United Kingdom in the event of war should be exercised by three Commanders-in-Chief responsible to the Chiefs of Staff (the Commander-in-Chief Portsmouth (at present Admiral Sir Arthur Power), General Sir Miles Dempsey and the Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief Fighter Command (Air Marshal Sir Basil Embry)). General Dempsey acts as Chairman.

Admiral Power and Air Marshal Embry have, of course, full-time appointments already. General Dempsey has only a part-time appointment because, at this stage, the Committee is concerned only with planning. The three Commanders-in-Chief are able to meet often enough to ensure the necessary co-ordination of plans and they work through existing Service staffs. The position will, of course, be watched and, should it prove necessary in the light of experience, General Dempsey's appointment will be made full-time.

General Dempsey is a member of the Regular Army Reserve of Officers who, in the special circumstances I have described, is filling a part-time post. I know of no other higher appointment in the Armed Forces which is on a part-time basis.

May I first ask the Minister to bear in mind that in putting down this Question I did not intend in any way to reflect upon General Dempsey, for whom I have the highest regard, as, I think, we all have. Would he also bear in mind that this appointment is, in the eyes of the country, an extremely important one, and that it might perhaps seem more appropriate if it were made full-time, so that General Dempsey could devote his whole time to it?

That is precisely the point which was given very full consideration by the Chiefs of Staff and myself when the matter was put before us. It seemed quite clear that this does not require to be a full-time appointment at this stage. It is merely a planning exercise. No doubt it may evolve into something much more important, but at present it is not regarded as necessary to go beyond this.

While entirely endorsing what the hon. and gallant Gentleman has said about General Dempsey, may I nevertheless urge the Minister to reconsider this matter immediately? It is absolutely wrong that the man responsible for the defence of this country in the event of invasion should have equal priorities for betting and defence. It is high time we treated this appointment with the priority it deserves.

The hon. Member is quite wrong. The primary responsibility rests with the Chiefs of Staff, and the planning committee over which General Sir Miles Dempsey will preside is responsible to the Chiefs of Staff.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that there was no serving officer, not on the retired list, capable of filling this Army appointment?

Mr. Shinwell