asked the Minister of Education how many children were attending local schools from the gipsy encampment at Dudley, Worcestershire, before the families and their caravan homes were evicted on 27th March; and how many have since found places in schools within the boundaries of the Brierley Hill local authority.

I am informed that no children from this gipsy encampment attended schools in Dudley, or Brierley Hill.

Is the right hon. Lady not aware that, at the annual conference of the National Union of Women Teachers last week at Harrogate, a resolution was passed saying that something should be done about having these children registered and sent to school? Is she not further aware that there are many districts where they were going to school but where they have now been driven out of built-up areas into the woods and are to get no education at all?

The fact that they have moved on is nothing to do with me or with the local authority. The encampment at Dudley was visited regularly by school attendance officers in order to try to induce parents to send the children to school, but, by the time it had been arranged that they should be obliged to send them to school, they had moved on.

Is not that dreadful information when it is a fact that it was the police who drove them out? Where they had no horses to pull the caravans, the police got between the shafts and pulled them away from one site into another area. The Minister is incorrect.

Anyhow, all I can say is that they moved.

Of course they moved.

As the hon. Gentleman knows, I am not responsible for how they moved or whether they were moved by the police or anybody else. I was looking to the fact of whether the children were there and whether we could get them into school.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that these people were treated with the utmost consideration by the authorities of Dudley, but that they constituted an intolerable public nuisance? As my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford (Mr. Dodds) is so solicitous for their welfare, would he kindly issue an invitation and arrange for their transport to Dartford?

I think the hon. Gentleman will agree with me that it is not my work as Minister of Education to deal with difficulties between two hon. Gentlemen opposite.

In view of the incorrect information given on this subject, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Education whether she has yet received a report from the Secondary School Examinations Council on the new examination system; and whether she will make a statement on the age limit for the general certificate of education.

Yes, Sir. I have decided that, with effect from next year, a pupil shall not be debarred from taking the examination for the general certificate of education before the age of 16 if the head of his school is satisfied that it is educationally right for him to do so and that he is fully up to the required standard. Normally the examination will not be taken before the age of 16.

I have always felt that age alone should not debar a pupil from taking this examination. On taking office I deferred any decision to make a change, because I knew that the Secondary School Examinations Council had of their own initiative undertaken to review the existing arrangements in the light of experience gained since the new system was introduced.

I have now received their Report, which I am glad to say is unanimous. Their main recommendation is that, while the existing age limit should be retained, heads of schools should have full discretion to enter pupils at an earlier age under certain specified conditions. This, and their proposal that a distinction mark should be available for candidates at the advanced level, seem to me eminently sensible, and I am, therefore, informing the Council that I shall give effect to both their recommendations. I shall publish their Report in the next few days.

Is the Minister aware that this further step to freedom for the able will be greeted with great satisfaction? Can she say whether the same or similar facilities will be extended to the boys and girls in secondary modern schools?

Yes. This will, of course, affect girls or boys in any schools, because the head of the school will be able to say that he considers that a particular pupil is able to take the examination at an earlier age than 16 and that it will be educationally good for him to do so. It affects all the schools equally.

The Minister mentioned specified conditions. Will she elaborate on that?

Yes—

Mr. Thomas.

asked the Minister of Education whether she is aware of the dangerous condition of the school yard and approaches of the Howell Dda School, Ely, Cardiff; and whether she has given the local education authority permission for the necessary expenditure to improve these conditions.

I know that the yard and approaches to this school are not in a wholly satisfactory condition, but I am not aware that they are dangerous. Expenditure by the local education authority on the proper maintenance of them does not require my approval.

Is the Minister aware that this yard is definitely dangerous and that there are considerable complaints from the parents in the area? Will she satisfy herself that there is no danger to the well-being of the children attending the school due to the lack of finance to get on with those repairs?

No, there is no point in suggesting that it is lack of finance which prevents getting on with the repairs. The local authority can have the finance and knows that it has the finance. The point should be brought to the notice of the local authority. It is their responsibility to see that the yard is kept in a proper condition.

asked the Minister of Education what advice her expert advisers have given to local educational authorities on intelligence tests for grammar school entrants and methods of guarding against the falsification of those tests by coaching.

As I indicated in the reply I gave on 6th March to the hon. Member for Widnes (Mr. MacColl), I should prefer to leave local education authorities to work out methods for determining the most suitable secondary education for each child. It has been suggested to some authorities who have informally sought advice that a limited amount of practice and coaching for intelligence tests might be allowed in schools.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, while nobody wishes to interfere with the freedom of the local authorities in this matter, it is simply a question, as indeed my right hon. Friend indicated, that certain local authorities would welcome advice because they were first told that coaching was not possible and it now turns out that in some cases it is possible; and they themselves are very anxious for some guidance as to how they can get round that difficulty?

As I have said, if local authorities have asked for suggestions, we have suggested that a limited amount of practice and coaching for the intelligence tests might be allowed in schools, but the responsibility for the decision rests with the local authorities.

Can the Minister say what are the qualifications of her expert advisers on this matter, and can they pass intelligence tests?

I think that the guidance I have had has been from Her Majesty's Inspectors.

asked the Minister of Education her present estimates of the numbers of children reaching secondary school age in 1953 and 1954 for whom there will be no places in secondary schools, in England and Wales and in Staffordshire, respectively.

I have no reason to suppose that there will be any reduction in Staffordshire or elsewhere in the proportion of the children reaching secondary school age who will be admitted to secondary schools in 1953 and 1954.

Has not the Minister warned local authorities that some children will have to stay on for a certain period at primary schools owing to the lack of places due to the cut in the building programme, and what is the meaning of that warning if in fact there are to be no children for whom places cannot be found in secondary schools?

Yes, but the hon. Member asked me about the years 1953 and 1954. The arrangements made for the change in certain areas so that they can continue education in the primary school buildings will come into force after 1956.

asked the Minister of Education if she will reconsider her decision to defer the building of the proposed new secondary school at Maryport, Cumberland, in view of the special need to extend educational facilities in the area of West Cumberland.

No, Sir. Though desirable, this project is in my opinion less urgent than those included in the revised 1952–53 building programme.

In view of the difficulties of this area, of which I am sure the right hon. Lady is aware in view of the representations made, will she look at this matter again and reconsider it if the local authority makes further approaches?

Yes, but this building would be to relieve overcrowding and to permit re-organisation. It would not be for the first priority purpose, which is to provide places for the extra school population, and I am following the policy of my predecessor, laid down five years ago, that building should not be to relieve overcrowding and to permit re-organisation. I might think it was a pity that that decision was taken but now I feel, as I said in the circular on building, that I cannot now make the change, and I must continue the policy which was decided by the previous Government.

The right hon. Lady will recollect that if my right hon. Friend had been Minister this project would have gone ahead because, in a letter to the local authority, the right hon. Lady herself declares that she is unable to authorise the carrying on of this project.

I am unable to authorise it because I am carrying on the policy laid down by my predecessor that building should not at present be for the relief of overcrowding and to permit re-organisation. I should like not to carry on that policy for any length of time; I should like to be able to allow building to deal with overcrowding and to permit re-organisation, but at present I cannot. I shall do it as soon as I possibly can.

In view of the fact that this is the result of Circular 245, I give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Education when the new Kingsway School at Goole is to be opened.

Probably after the Whitsun holiday.

Does the Minister agree that it will greatly assist the effective working of this school if the children for whom it is intended were allowed access to the school? If so, will she make representations to whoever is running the Ministry of Transport at the moment to get sanction for a footbridge to be built across the railway which at present separates this school from the housing estate it is intended to serve?

The subject of a bridge is a different matter, but if the hon. Gentleman will put down a Question I will answer it. His Question asks when the school will be opened, and I have given him an answer.

asked the Minister of Education whether she is aware that the Warwickshire Education Committee has decided to cut out completely swimming instruction in schools in response to her Circular 242; and if, as swimming instruction is essential for both health and safety reasons, she will inform the Committee that this part of the essential fabric of the education service must be retained.

I am aware of the action proposed by Warwickshire. While I agree that instruction in swimming is very desirable, I should not regard myself as justified in interfering with the authorities' discretion in this matter.

I do not know if this supplementary question is addressed to one swimmer from another, but might I ask the right hon. Lady if she realises that swimming is the one sport which does develop every part of the body, and for safety reasons would she not agree that every child should be taught to swim, unless he or she is medically unfit?

I should like to remind the hon. Lady that in a great many areas there are opportunities for children to learn to swim outside school hours and outside school arrangements, and I think that we should encourage that as much as possible.

asked the Minister of Education if she is now in a position to make a statement about the proposals for financial assistance to the voluntary schools.

I would refer to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. K. Thompson), on 31st March.

While appreciating the fact that the Minister is anxious to assist voluntary schools as much as possible, can I ask her to realise that this is a very urgent matter now, and will she take steps to expedite the proposals in view of the grave financial circumstances of the voluntary schools?

Yes, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I am entirely in favour of that. I have now completed discussions with all those who are interested. As I said in the answer, I hope to bring forward legislative proposals, but I think that the hon. Gentleman will realise that there is not much possibility at present of getting a Bill through the House of Commons in addition to what we are dealing with.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that the delay in dealing with this matter is causing grave difficulties, as many of the voluntary schools are in quite an unfit condition for children to be taught in them, and in view of the fact that agreement had been reached with the late Government, why the delay now?

Perhaps the hon. Lady is unaware that no agreement had been reached with all the denominational bodies, the local authorities and the teachers. I have had discussions with many authorities who had had no previous knowledge of what was arranged or that discussions had taken place. As I say, those discussions are now completed but, as she will realise, time must be found for legislative proposals to go through this House, and I think she will agree with me that at the present time the prospect is not very cheerful.

Will the right hon. Lady consider asking through the usual channels whether legislation in this matter might be facilitated, in view of the great need for such legislation?

I will certainly press that these matters may be discussed. But I think that the right hon. Gentleman will agree that there is other legislation which it is desperately necessary to get through, and the quicker that goes through the quicker we can deal with the other.

asked the Minister of Education whether she is aware that, owing to the shortage of school accommodation on the New Parks Estate and on other new housing estates in the city of Leicester, there will have to be classes of some 50 children each; and if she will give permission for hutted accommodation to be used as a temporary measure pending the sanctioning of the original building programme.

I am at present considering with the local education authority their allocation for minor capital works in the current financial year. I expect that the authority will be providing some temporary classrooms at schools in the New Parks area and elsewhere.

Has the right hon. Lady appreciated the fact that these schools are being asked for in districts where young married people have been housed and where there are young children who have to receive education; and that unless something is done immediately quite a large number of these children will not be able to have school accommodation at all? There will be very large classes and a great social problem is being created owing to the action of the Government in cutting down further accommodation.

No, Sir, I do not think it is that. The local education authorities have discretion in the use of their allocation for minor works, which have been increased. I shall encourage them to use up the greater part of the allocation to provide additional classrooms.

asked the Minister of Education whether she has considered the protest of the Parents' Association of Landewedneck County Primary School, Cornwall, a copy of which has been sent to her, against the proposed reduction of staff; and what action she proposes to take in this matter.

Yes, Sir, but I do not think that the circumstances of the case justify my intervention in a matter which is within the discretion of the local education authority.

Is the Minister aware that the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. G. R. Howard) and the local county council have made representations to the local education authority on this matter and that the school is 10 miles from the nearest secondary modern school at Helston? Does not she think these senior children need some special consideration? Will she reconsider the matter?

I agree that the hon. Member for St. Ives, in whose constituency the school is situated, has been in touch with the local authority since the middle of March. The decision was that of the local authority, but I can assure the hon. Member, from what I have heard from the local authority and from the hon. Member for St. Ives, that they are looking after the matter, and I think we shall get a satisfactory result.

Mr. Jeger.

On a point of order. As this last Question concerns the division which I have the honour to represent, perhaps I may put a supplementary question.

We are making extremely slow progress.

asked the Minister of Education how many all-age primary schools in Cornwall have between 100 and 109 scholars on roll; how many of these have three teachers; and how many four.

Eleven, of which five have three, and six have four teachers. These figures relate to January, 1952.

Would the Minister be kind enough to repeat the first part of her answer?

It is difficult for a Minister to answer when there is a great deal of noise, however much he or she speaks out. The answer is 11, of which five have three and six have four teachers. These figures relate to January, 1952.

Is the Minister aware that the local education authorities have now laid down that these six schools with four teachers shall have their staffs reduced to three—[HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."]—and does she consider that a class of 36 children with an age range of three or four years and of both sexes is a satisfactory class unit for a teacher, and will she request all local authorities to see that such classes of over 90 children should have four teachers?

Yes, Sir, and I have already asked local authorities to staff up to their full requirements under their quota scheme. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the revised staffing scale of the authorities allows for four teachers to be employed when the roll reaches 105.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the case of one of these schools the matter has been sub judice? She has no doubt seen the resolution I forwarded to her. Is she aware that that is the reason why I have not approached her so far? I thought it only fair to give the county education authority a chance to think again with the man on the spot.

I should like to thank my hon. Friend for what he has done. Having been told of the difficulty, I explained that the decision as to the number of teachers was that of the local authority, and I suggested the course, which he has followed, of taking up the matter with the local authority. That he has now done, I believe most successfully.

asked the Minister of Education (1) what steps are being taken to provide a modern training for the needs required by the highly skilled engineering craftsmen; and how far provision is being made for a course that will equip men of the future with what they will require at pattern-making, skilled moulding, toolmaker, skilled moulding, toolmark, skilled electrician, or other highly skilled work;

(2) what changes and modification she is considering in the educational courses that are provided for engineering students; what changes are being made to convert the City and Guilds certificates courses into a full technological educational course; and what action is being taken to cater for modern requirements;

(3) what action she is taking now or has in prospect to link up the educational facilities provided in the industrial localities, schools, works and technical colleges, to provide a National Certificate for the highly skilled engineering craftsmen, and also to provide facilities for a proper technological education.

The engineering courses provided in technical colleges are being continuously reviewed and developed, but in general I consider that the present system of craft courses leading to the examinations of the City and Guilds of London Institute and the courses leading to national certificates is meeting the requirements of the engineering industry.

A proposal for a national craft apprenticeship certificate for the engineering trades was considered by the National Advisory Council on Education for Industry and Commerce in consultation with the industry, but was rejected by both sides of the industry.

Having had three Questions answered at once, and having noted the complacent attitude of the Minister as revealed in her answer, I propose to leave it there for the time being.

asked the Minister of Education whether she is aware that cuts in the transport services for schoolchildren have resulted in children being denied schooling; and if she will give an assurance that she will refuse her sanction to such proposals.

No, Sir. My advice to local education authorities in Circular 242 was designed to eliminate unnecessary expenditure on school transport, in particular where free transport was being provided without special justification for children living nearer to school than the distances prescribed in the Education Act, 1944. If the hon. Member has any particular case in mind, I shall be glad to look into it.

asked the Minister of Education the estimated cost in the year 1951 of transport facilities provided for schoolchildren in England and Wales.

So far as I can estimate, about £4,750,000.

Would the Minister agree that this service was first instituted mainly in order to avoid road accidents to children on their way to and from school, and that now the service has been considerably curtailed by many local authorities many parents are increasingly anxious about the possibility of danger to life and limb for their children on their way to and from school? Would it be practicable or possible to make a grant from the Road Fund to this service in order that local authorities may be more generous in the provision of school buses?

As I have already said, the transport regulations for such purposes are laid down in the Act of 1944. At the present moment, the estimate is £4,750,000, and, in 1949, when my predecessor thought the amount was too high and sent a circular to local authorities asking them to cut it down, it was then £2,250,000.

asked the Minister of Education how many secondary technical schools have been declared redundant under the latest plan of the Middlesex County Council; and what action she intends to take in this matter in view of the urgent need for technicians in industry.

The proposal of the Middlesex local education authority is to replace ultimately 21 secondary technical schools by the provision of alternative technical courses in other secondary schools. In considering the revised development plan, I will take into account all the relevant factors, including that mentioned by the hon. Member.

Is it not a fact that this will mean a diminution of secondary school places, particularly in technical education, and that this is a scandalous decision, in line with that of the Middlesex County Council? Will the Minister please ask this Tory council to think again about this particular decision they have taken?

I am surprised that it should be regarded as such, because, in a great many cases, it is the arrangement for the building of all new schools that have been multilateral or bi-lateral, and I know that many hon. Members opposite would like these comprehensive schools.

Secondly, it is aimed at providing that these schools do not take up places in the technical colleges, where too much space has been taken up and where other students are not getting all the opportunities they should have; it is not a cutting down of the number of places, but the authority suggesting a reorganisation of the new type of bilateral or multilateral school.