I beg to move, in page 1, line 18, to leave out "injuring."

I beg to second the Amendment. I am quite sure a special chorus of birds will greet the noble Lady tomorrow morning when she wakes.

I beg to move, in page 2, line 4, at the end, to insert:

"or by reason of the taking of an egg of a wild duck, wild goose or swan if it is shown that the egg was taken for the purpose of causing it to be hatched."

I beg to move, in page 2, line 14, after "poultry," to insert:

"ornamental ducks, ornamental geese or swans."

I beg to move, in page 2, line 26, after "and," to insert "(except in Scotland)."

I beg to second the Amendment.

The reasons for prolonging the closed season for woodcock to the end of September, as at present provided in the Bill, is because the bird breeds late and many are still moulting in September. I said in Committee that I did not have the times of the close season in various parts of the country by me, but I have since found that the close season for woodcock has been extended to the end of September in nine counties, to 31st August in four, and to 31st July in the remaining 20 counties.

The noble Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) said that in Committee an Amendment was defeated. That Amendment would have provided for a close season from 1st February to 11th August, instead of 1st February to 30th September as is provided in the Bill. The Amendment was defeated by 16 votes to nine. The present Amendment provides a close season in Scotland from 3rd February to 31st August. One of the reasons that were advanced in Committee for an earlier date for shooting was that youngsters would have an opportunity of gaining experience, but as the Amendment affects Scotland only I do not propose to vote against it.

I beg to move, in page 2, line 31, at the end, to insert:

(c) in the case of wild duck and wild geese in or over any area below high water mark of ordinary spring tides, the period in any year commencing with the twenty-first day of February and ending with the thirty-first day of August.

On a point of order. I should like to have your guidance, Mr. Speaker, with regard to the two subsequent Amendments in my name and in the names of my hon. Friends as Amendments to the Amendment which my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) is moving.

It might be for the convenience of the House to say now that I do not propose to call the Amendments standing in the hon. Member's name to the Amendment proposed by the noble Lady.

I abide by your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, but a number of hon. Members and others outside this House are interested in my Amendments and I wonder whether there is any chance of you reconsidering your decision.

Further to that point of order. I have had many representations made to me about the Amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) and, although this concerns only myself, I might add that I have taken a good deal of trouble to be here today and so, Mr. Speaker, I am doubly disappointed by your Ruling.

My selection was made after considerable care and study of this matter and of the Committee proceedings, and I cannot have it questioned in the House. I am sorry that the hon. and gallant Member for Devon, North (Brigadier Peto) should have been put to inconvenience to be here, but he should recollect that his duty is to be always here.

This is a very important Amendment, and I ask the House to allow me a little time to explain it fully. I am naturally conscious that there is a large number of Amendments to this Bill and that many hon. Members are waiting anxiously to discuss other Bills, but I feel that this Amendment is important because it touches two completely divergent views on the subject, both in the House and in the country.

I beg to second the Amendment.

"We are seeking to prevent the old ducks and geese being killed off while they are mating and nesting, and at the other end to prevent the young birds being shot before they are able to fly."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st April, 1939; Vol. 346, c. 676.]

I should like to give my full support to the Amendment. Like other parts of the Bill, it is a compromise, because various interests must be considered in connection with bird protection. First of all, there are the protectionists who are concerned, as I think we all are in the House, with the preservation of the stocks of birds, and particularly of wildfowl, in this country. Secondly, there are the sporting interests. Thirdly, there are the commercial interests, if I may so describe them—the interests of the wildfowlers. I have several wildfowlers in my constituency who are engaged in the part-time occupation of wildfowling in the Severn Estuary. I am sure other hon. Members are in the same position. We must therefore try to achieve a compromise.

It would be appropriate, although the two Amendments which follow are not to be called, for me to add my thanks to my noble Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) for going as far as to accept the date of 21st February. I know it is against her own feelings to do so. I am sure wildfowlers will appreciate what she has been able to do in this matter.

I am sure that wildfowlers will be grateful to the noble Lady for asking the House to agree to this extension for shooting on the foreshore. I am sure that I am not the only hon. Member who has had a great many letters on the subject over the last two weeks. Wildfowlers as a class are not among those who write to their Members of Parliament every week-end, so they must feel strongly before they write the number of letters which they have done.

It is quite incorrect.

Something more midway would have better warranted the title of a reasonable compromise, so I hope that something in this direction may be done in another place.

Perhaps it is time that this House heard something from somebody who is not a wildfowler. Reference has been made by various hon. Members to the number of letters they have received, but of course we are all aware that this has been an organised campaign. I will pay my tribute to the wildfowlers organisation, however, for they have been efficient in their campaign, and I only wish the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds had been equally alive to the implications of this Clause. I have no wish to divide the House this morn- ing. The noble Lady has offered a compromise to many who feel strongly on this subject, but it is only right that we who do not shoot, the majority of the people in this country, should voice what we have to say.

"Wildfowlers were prepared to surrender their August shooting in exchange for a fixed February extension."

I want to add my thanks to those of others to the noble Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) for placing this Amendment on the Order Paper. I was one of those who, on receiving communications from wild-fowling friends and others, felt that closing down at the end of January was too harsh from their point of view and that a compromise of this sort might be advisable.

I have a considerable area of foreshore in my constituency and a large number of wildfowlers. Like other hon. Members, I have received many circular letters and printed documents about this matter. My constituents do not write long personal letters giving their experience in sport unless they feel strongly about a matter, and many of those letters have impressed me considerably. I look upon wildfowling as one of the best forms of sport and it is appreciated by people in every class of society. Therefore, while I am not enthusiastic about this, I am quite ready to accept it as a reasonable compromise.

It is perhaps right that I should say a word on behalf of the Government on this Amendment. I do not want to enter into its merits; it is a matter on which the House must be free to make up its own mind. On the other hand, it is important, as my noble Friend has said, that what this Bill does shall be generally approved by those whom it will affect. Therefore, it is important that where we get a matter of fairly sharp controversy, something near the middle line should be taken. I think it is fairly clear from the course that the debate has taken this morning that my noble Friend has just about hit the middle line. For that reason, I would personally recommend the House to accept the Amendment as the proper way of dealing with this admittedly difficult and somewhat controversial question.

I should like to support my noble Friend. In my constituency we have a very large foreshore. My constituents are mostly people who work from Mondays to Fridays, and it is only on Saturdays that they are able to do their shooting. I am sure that my constituents, like all wildfowlers, appreciate the need to preserve these birds, as my noble Friend has said. Indeed, there has been in my constituency no divergence of opinion on this Amendment.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the local councils already have this power and have exercised it in the majority of cases?

I am aware of that, but I hope that local councils will pay attention to the feeling in this House.

I should like to thank my noble Friend on behalf of the Kent Wildfowlers Association, of which I am President. As my noble Friend knows, there are many wildfowlers in Kent, and I assure her that they are most appreciative of the manner in which she has met their desires in this matter. I should also like to assure her that many of them are very keen ornithologists; they are very careful to preserve wildfowl, and they assure me that they will give the utmost support to this Bill.

I have received more letters from those who want to protect birds than from the organised efforts of the wildfowlers. My feelings were like those of my hon. Friend for Falmouth and Camborne (Mr. Hayman), and at first sight I felt strongly inclined to oppose this Amendment. I have been persuaded, however, by the noble Lady that we had better accept it. I hope this will be the last concession that is made, and that the Bill will not be further amended in this respect elsewhere.

I should like particularly to say how pleased I am that my noble Friend has moved this Amendment. Upstairs in Committee I was rather inclined to favour the original suggestion, but I found that certain reasons which persuaded me to give my support to her upstairs were not founded upon fact. I think that the noble Lady, I am sure quite unwittingly, may have exaggerated the decline of wildfowl in certain parts of the country, including that part that I myself have the honour to represent, Holy Island. The noble Lady said that about the largest number of geese seen during the year was about 25. I was told later that a colony of about 3,000 soon appeared, which would seem to prove that the noble Lady may have exaggerated.

I rise to intervene for the first time in this debate. I suppose hon. Members will say that I am more concerned with the making of guns and with the stuff that goes in them, than their use. As a matter of fact, I have had some experience of wildfowling, both in season and out of season, and I think it was recorded in the game book as "various."

I beg to move, in page 2, line 39, to leave out "extend," and to insert "vary."

Yes, these two Amendments might well be discussed together.

Attention was drawn to the fact that while the Bill enables the Secretary of State to extend the close season, it does not enable him to shorten it. This means that an extention order is irrelevant. The effect would be too rigid. The intention is that the close seasons laid down in the Bill should be minimum close seasons and the Secretary of State should have no power to reduce them.

I beg to second the Amendment.

I beg to move, in page 3, line 32, at the end, to insert:

"or by reason of the taking of an egg of a wild duck, wild goose or swan if it is shown that the egg was taken for the purpose of causing it to be hatched."

I beg to second the Amendment.

I think my hon. Friend is unduly alarmed because the person who permits someone else, like the farm labourer, to do that is authorised by the gamekeeper, if the gamekeeper is an authorised person himself.

In this case, the farm labourer was on a neighbouring estate and, if he applied to be an authorised person, by the time he became such the eggs would have been bad.

I hope that the question of the authorised person will not be pressed too far. The Amendment seems very wide and it seems that anyone could take the egg of a wild duck, a goose or a swan anywhere and not be strictly within the confines of the instance given during the Committee stage.

I beg to move, in page 5, line 26, at the end, to insert:

"or

(f) for the purpose of killing or taking any wild goose uses as a decoy any dead bird or model of a bird."

"One all-too-successful morning when I shot 20 in a very short time, and could at least have doubled this number, went a very long way towards curing me of any desire to shoot geese at all. The confident way in which they keep flying in to what they think are their brothers is pretty sickening to many of us. A friend of mine, after shooting 80 in one day, felt the same, and I believe he would willingly give his name in the cause of good sportsmanship."

I beg to second the Amendment.

I have given a very great deal of thought to this problem which has been put before the House with much feeling and sincerity by the hon. and learned Member for Brigg (Mr. E. L. Mallalieu). However, I do not feel that I can accept the Amendment as it stands, and I will give the reasons why. I would like to suggest a compromise which might be acceptable to the hon. and learned Gentleman.

The noble Lady has referred twice to the Home Office in the course of her speech, once to say that the Home Office Advisory Committee on Wild Birds had considered this matter but had got the jitters and was afraid to do anything, and once to ask us to trust them again to deal effectively with the kind of Amendment which she suggests.

I wish to support my noble Friend in the line she has adopted towards this Amendment. Although I have a red face and have talked a good deal about duck and geese on this Bill, and may be thought to have shot a lot of geese, the truth is that I do not think that I have shot more than a dozen since the war. Before the war, I perhaps enjoyed shooting more.

Perhaps I should say a word in view of what my noble Friend has suggested. I have not had an opportunity of considering her suggestion, but the Amendment does appear to me to be somewhat drastic. I do not wish in any way to put pressure on hon. Members should this matter come to a Division. It is something for them to decide in accordance with what they think is right. On the other hand, the Amendment goes very far in order to deal with what, on the face of it, is a local problem. It would prohibit altogether this form of sport which is a long-established practice in many parts of the country. I think it right that I should say that.

I hope that the suggestion of the noble Lady will not be accepted. I know the area represented by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Brigg (Mr. E. L. Mallalieu) extremely well and have spent thousands of hours on Humberside as a young man. It would appear to me that the effect of the noble Lady's suggestion would be that geese would be given a chance on the south side of the Humber, but it does not matter so much if they are shot over a decoy on the other side. In other words, preferential protection would be provided in this spot and then the same birds could be shot elsewhere in the country.

I hope the hon. and learned Member for Brigg (Mr. E. L. Mallalieu) will accept the compromise suggested by my noble Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir). It is a long-standing practice to shoot over a decoy, and I can assure hon. Gentlemen who feel strongly about the matter that it is very unusual for a sportsman to bag more than one or two geese. I remember that on the last occasion on which I attempted to shoot geese I went out before first light across some very muddy ground. I lay in the wet and, when I attempted to move my feet, I found they were bogged down in thick black mud. I looked like hell and smelt to high heaven, and I did not get a solitary shot.

Would the hon. Member agree that in Scotland not so long ago it was evident that both the landowners and workers were united in asking this House to pass a Bill to prohibit organised poaching? While it appeared to hon. Members that they were not concerned with individual poaching, they thought it necessary to legislate against organised poaching.

That is an entirely different matter. If the hon. Gentleman knows how poachers behave he will know that they do far worse things than put down decoys. They use leg traps and gin traps, and when they are poaching salmon they use cyanide—

Not the honest boys.

There is no relation between the use of decoys by wildfowlers and other responsible people and the activities of poachers.

On a point of order. May I ask the Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the Home Secretary would have power under this Bill, as it is now drafted, to deal with this matter, in addition to providing orders to vary the periods in which shooting can take place?

That is not a point of order. I do not know if it would help the discussion if the question were cleared up.

It is a relevant question. As I understand the position the Bill, as at present drafted, does not contain the necessary power to do what my noble Friend has suggested. It would therefore be necessary to insert the requisite power in the Bill. That can still be done in another place.

I hope the House will accept the assurances of the noble Lady that she will look into the matter. Clearly the Amendment is far too drastic. The use of decoys cannot be forbidden in the country as a whole. It is perfectly legitimate to use a decoy although it is not often used in the case of geese. It is used far more often in wild duck shooting.

I have shot geese over decoys both in Holland and in America. In Holland we used stuffed decoys which were very useful in a fog. The geese were flying low and they came round to see what was happening. In America I have shot with live decoys as well; but I have shot more geese while sitting in the reeds on the edge of a Scottish loch with my feet in the water, keeping perfectly still. I have got more geese like that than I have got over decoys. I support what was said by the noble Lady.

Of course, if there is a vote it will be a perfectly free one. There is no question of party pressure on either side. I was a little startled by what one of my hon. Friends said about the attitude of the Home Office in these matters. I know the care and attention given to all these orders and their variations when they are considered on the application of local authorities. It is by no means true to say that the Home Office is smitten with palsy when it has to deal with such matters. That is the last disease that would ever affect the Home Office.

I thought that I had made it plain—it certainly was my intention—that the point would be looked into. I cannot give a specific promise. I have not considered the matter. It will involve a somewhat technical alteration. I cannot possibly, here and now, without notice, give an undertaking that the Government will be responsible for having inserted into a Bill, which after all is a Private Member's Bill, an Amendment of that kind, but I can give the most complete undertaking that the matter will be thoroughly, carefully and sympathetically considered.

That was what I was complaining about—the limited nature of the undertaking. Can we have an assurance that if the noble Lady wishes to continue with the offer she has made she will have the advantage of having Government draftsmen at her disposal to find the proper form of words?

Certainly.

I am sure that, no matter how we decide, we should desire that the noble Lady, through her representative in the other place—and in view of her position with regard to a Member of the other place, heaven forbid that I should suggest who her representative there should be—should not be told, if an Amendment is moved to implement the pledge, that it is not quite the right form of words. There is a feeling which is not confined to one side of the House that on occasion there is grave abuse in this matter, and that that abuse should be ended. I hope that the Government will give the noble Lady assistance to carry out the suggestion which she has made.

My right hon. Friend has indicated that at least he is clear and that if he were responsible he would treat the Amendment with the greatest seriousness. I gather from some of the speeches, especially that of the hon. Member for Gillingham (Mr. Burden), that some Members are content with the position as it is. The hon. Member for Gillingham believes that there is no need for an Amendment and that the local farmers and landlords may be left to their own devices to produce the protection which some of us desire to be given.

I have listened with great interest to what has been said. It is possible that what hon. Members opposite propose will achieve the object. Until they have achieved it—and this is in no sense an aspersion against them—I should have preferred to have a vote in favour of my Amendment which could easily have been altered in another place if a better means of achieving the end had been found.

I beg to move, in page 5, line 38, at the end, to insert:

Provided that nothing in this subsection shall make unlawful the use (in Scotland only) of a mechanically-propelled boat for the purpose of killing or taking rock-doves.

I beg to second the Amendment.

Clause 5 (2) makes it an offence to use a mechanically-propelled boat in immediate pursuit of a wild bird for the purpose of driving, killing or taking. The Amendment would make an exception to the use of a mechanically-propelled boat only for the purpose of killing rock-doves. I would point out that under the Clause there is no objection to the use of a motor-boat to enable one to get into a position to shoot birds, but I am prepared to accept the Amendment.

I very much appreciate that the sponsors of the Amendment altered the first draft so that this provision would apply to Scotland only. I understand that the rock-dove is a very doubtful species in England and Wales. I should like to express my appreciation of what the sponsors of the Bill have done.

The rock-dove is a distinctly rare bird in the South of England, and it is extremely important that there it should not be treated like this but should be protected. We thus have the curious situation that one species needs to be shot in Scotland and requires protection in England. I am glad that the provision will apply to Scotland only. It would not do to have it in England.

I beg to move, in page 6, line 1, to leave out "or net."

I beg to second the Amendment.

I cannot accept the Amendment as drafted because it is far too wide. My hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (Mr. J. Morrison) asked me to consider the matter further to see whether it would be possible to do anything specifically about rocket-nets, and I will consider that point.

"… the use of nets for the purpose of taking wild duck in a dude decoy which is shown to have been in use immediately before the passing of this Act. …"

It is extremely important that we should not interfere with the very important scientific work that is going on concerning the movement and breeding of birds. Before I came to this House, I myself did a bit of bird ringing and found it extremely interesting work, which I was able to help in a very humble way by collecting information. I am quite certain that no serious harm has been done by rocket netting in this country, though it may be true that, up in the Arctic, where rocket netting has been carried out among geese in the period before the birds get their feathers, there may have been some casualties. I am satisfied that no damage has been done in the area just outside my own constituency where the very important work of ringing by this method is carried out for us by Mr. Peter Scott. It is most important that this work should not be interfered with, and there is no evidence to support the view that it is doing any harm to birds in this country. What may be happening in the Arctic Circle, where similar methods are used, is possibly more questionable.

I should like to thank the noble Lady for what she has said, and to say that I accept the position as she has explained it, but I should like to add that, while it is very interesting to learn that a million birds have been ringed, it should be pointed out that only a very limited number were ringed through rocket netting. There are a number of people in this country, of whom I am one, who are rather nervous about increasing the practice of rocket netting, particularly during the breeding or moulting period, but in view of what my noble Friend has said, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

I beg to move, in page 7, line 5, to leave out from "constable," to "to," in line 7.

"may grant a warrant to any constable or, in England or Wales, to any duly authorised officer of the council of the county or county borough in which those premises are situated to enter upon and search "—

"those premises for the purpose of obtaining that evidence."

I beg to second the Amendment.

As the hon. Member for Falmouth and Camborne (Mr. Hayman) has said, I did undertake to look into this matter very fully, and I have consulted the various people who might be asked to undertake this power of search. I am very glad to be able to accept this Amendment, but I should like to tell the House the reasons which caused me to come to this decision.

In view of the concession which the noble Lady has made— and I am very grateful to her for accepting the Amendment—I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

The Amendment has been accepted. There is no need for the hon. Member to ask leave to withdraw it.

I beg to move, in page 8, line 25, at the end, to insert:

Provided that any close season so prescribed shall commence on a date not later than the twenty-first day of February and end on a date not earlier than the thirty-first day of August.

I beg to second the Amendment.

I beg to move, in page 14, line 13, after "Corncrake (landrail)," to insert:

"Crossbill, common (in England and Wales only)."

I beg to second the Amendment.

I shall be very glad to accept this Amendment. I know the hon. Gentleman's view of the First Schedule, which is intended to give occasional and temporary breeders a chance to establish themselves as breeders in this country. The common crossbill is in this category in England, but in Scotland it is well established.

I beg to move, in page 14, line 14, after "Roller," to insert "Ruff and Reeve."

I beg to second the Amendment.

I shall be very glad to accept the Amendment. In the First Schedule the ruff and reeve are rightly included, because they are potential breeders. The main purpose of the special penalties for birds in the First Schedule is to ensure that birds in this category have a chance to establish themselves as regular breeders. The ruff and reeve are rather scarce. They are protected throughout the year by 37 counties in England and Wales, and by only one county in Scotland. The Amendment would give them assistance, and make the Bill consistent with waders having been taken out of the Third Schedule.

I beg to move, in page 15, line 4, at the beginning, to insert "Coot."

I beg to second the Amendment.

I do not wish to divide the House on this Amendment, but I feel that sufficient reasons have not been advanced for adding more birds to the black list. This matter was very fully gone into by the Committee. After all, the Second Schedule black list can be added to for any area where birds are alleged to be doing harm. Clause 4 (2, a) also allows anyone to kill birds which are doing harm to various forms of property, including the sort of property that has just been spoken of. I would like an explanation from the noble Lady. I could mention many other birds more harmful than the coot or the moorhen.

On a point of order. Are we not only discussing the coot? The hon. Member is referring to the moorhen.

What I said applies with equal force to the coot. I shall make a reference to the other bird on a later Amendment. There are plenty of alternative powers for dealing with this bird if and when they do damage. We shall have difficulty if we are to add birds to the black list because they sometimes do harm. We shall not know where to stop. So I cannot see why we should suddenly insert the coot at this stage.

I should like to give one example of when it is necessary to shoot coot out of season. Only last week I was asked by the Middlesex Agricultural Committee to help to shoot coot on Staines Reservoir.

I did not think that I should live to be in agreement with the hon. Member for Reading, North (Mr. F. M. Bennett) in this House. We discussed the proscribed list in great detail in Committee; and that was the unhappiest part of the Bill, in the opinion of some of us, because it contained things that should not be there. The chance to indict the British bird surely was in Committee, and I hope that on this stage we are not going to add to the black list of birds.

Those who really love the variety of birds must remember that where gross feeders collect the attraction for the selective feeders is not to be found. The coot is an example of a gross feeder. We divide waterfowl into gross and selective feeders. The former devour the special foods of the latter and prevent their being any attraction for the smaller fowl to join them. For example, the sheldrake prevents the mallard, and the mallard in large numbers is not joined by the teal, shovellers or even the pintail or the widgeon.

I have found myself in agreement with the hon. Member for Reading, North (Mr. F. M. Bennett) more than once during the passage of this Bill through the House, and I am very grateful to him for the stand which he has taken on several occasions.

"to crops, vegetables, fruit, growing timber or any other form of property or to fisheries."

I waited to speak until now because I was rather undecided about this matter, which is very difficult. The bird is already in the Third Schedule. My own feeling, after listening to the discussion, is that I think that it is perhaps best to leave it in the Third Schedule. I say this because, in reference to the views put forward as to damage to crops, I consulted the Ministry of Agriculture, and they have said that they do not themselves ask for this bird to be included in the Second Schedule. They thought that it would be quite all right to use the powers under Clause 4 (2, a), whereby the bird can be proscribed in local areas, and I think that would be the most reasonable compromise.

I hope that the statement of the Ministry of Agriculture will mean that if anyone asks for a permit he will get it under six months. In view of what the hon. Lady has said so well, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

I beg to move, in page 15, line 4, after "Magpie," to insert "Moorhen."

I beg to second the Amendment.

I think I shall now give the hon. Member for Test (Dr. King) the opportunity of repeating his rare agreement with me, because I cannot myself see that anything that has just been said should divert us from what our attitude ought to be towards the moorhen, as well as the coot.

My quip just now may have appeared discourteous. I and the hon. Member for Reading, North (Mr. F. M. Bennett) have agreed on many things in Committee on this Bill. Our disagreements are outside what we are discussing this morning. I hope that the noble Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) at this late stage will dig her heels in and refuse this request.

I should like to defend this bird against the charge of taking food which had been put down for other birds. It is much too discriminatory to condemn the bird on that account because food put down is common property and one cannot complain because of a bird's superior intelligence.

I strongly support all that has been said on behalf of this Amendment. I have rather a weakness for the moorhen but not for the coot, which I think a singularly unattractive bird. The moorhen does not do much damage. Even though it takes food which other birds might otherwise take, that is no good reason for removing it from the Third Schedule and putting it in the Second Schedule. It is an attractive bird. During the shooting season it can offer a certain amount of sport for young sportsmen who are learning to shoot, but to put the bird in the class of really destructive birds is utterly absurd.

I should like to say a few words in defence of the moorhen. I know of no more delightful bird on the water. Undoubtedly, it gives greater pleasure to children when they are watching birds on the water than any other. They watch it feeding and they are delighted with its movements and the young birds particularly are a source of never ending pleasure for children in the neighbourhood of the waters. It is true that everybody's character can be blackened if people only take the trouble to suggest that they over-eat a little or that they eat something that someone else would like.

I think that the sense of the House is against the Amendment. It is true also that the Ministry of Agriculture think that the moorhen has plenty of protection under powers granted in Clause 4 (2, a). It may interest hon. Members to know that a scientific examination of the contents of the moorhen's stomach produced certain kinds of snails including, it is said, the snail that causes liver rot in sheep, and for that purely practical reason it might be better to leave the moorhen in the Third Schedule.

It is with regret that I see that the moorhen has deceived my colleagues on both sides of the House. In view of that, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

I beg to move, in page 15, line 20, to leave out "curlew (other than stone curlew)."

I beg to second the Amendment.

Here is a last-minute opportunity of saving a bird from the Third Schedule and I hope that the noble Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South will accept the very attractive case which has been put forward on behalf of the Amendment. The case for the defence is always more pleasing to carry out and to listen to than the case for the prosecution, but this morning we had in the noble Lady's own speech proof of the value of the poem which I quoted on Second Reading, which shows that if one upsets the balance of Nature to do things for one purpose, one may be doing much more harm in some other way. The noble Lady's own argument has been used against her in pleading for the curlew as a protection for sheep.

I should like to support the Amendment. I do not believe that without the introduction of this bird into the Third Schedule anyone would think of shooting the curlew and the idea is not one that should be encouraged. I put forward another, sentimental, reason that the opinion used to be held in many parts of the country that the curlews represented the bodies of those lost at sea. For that reason alone we should respect the birds.

I have listened with very great interest to the debate on this Amendment. I should declare my interest in that the curlew is my second favourite bird. The first is the oyster catcher. I said earlier that I wished to listen to the argument first. I am glad that a plea for the curlew has been put forward by those who take great interest in shooting, because up to date it has been regarded as a legitimate sporting bird. I did not wish to press my personal views on the House but, if I judge it correctly, the sense of the House is that the name of the curlew should be deleted from this Schedule and that it should be given the general protection of the Bill.

I am grateful to the hon. Lady, as I am sure will be hundreds of thousands of people, for accepting the Amendment. I was responsible in Committee for an Amendment which, had it been accepted, would have moved the whimbrel from Part II of the First Schedule into Part I. I am extremely glad that we shall now achieve that objective by another method. Hon. Members may be interested to know that the call of the curlew ushers in one of the Nature talks which is broadcast over the West Region wavelength, and that it has given pleasure for many years.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."

I have great pleasure in seconding the Motion.

May I first congratulate the noble Lady on the intense application and study which she has put into this Bill? It must have taken her a great time to deal with the correspondence alone. May I also congratulate her on the capability, and, if I may say so, the charm with which she has piloted the Bill through the House? We have been fortunate in having it entrusted to someone who has so much natural knowledge of the subject and a country background.

Now it seems clear that any few remarks I may make will not delay the passage of this Bill I want to congratulate the noble Lady on the way she has conducted it through all its stages. I am neither a sportsman nor an ornithologist but merely a lover of the country. I know how much my affection for it is wrapped up in the birds I watch when I potter round the garden and go for walks. We in this country are blessed with a large and varied assortment of birds, and I think that this Bill will help to preserve and, I hope, increase the number that nest in this country.

I should like to add my words of gratitude, which I am sure the whole House feels, to my noble Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) for the great work which she has put into this remarkable Bill and for the charm with which throughout she has conducted the proceedings.

Did the hon. Gentleman send rude ones back?

In this book to which I have referred there is a remarkable record of pigeons from the military point of view. They never once showed the white feather. More important at the moment is the interest of the hundreds of thousands of people in these birds. As hon. Members from the North of England know, once a week a train goes South from Newcastle, I believe, with 30 vans loaded with pigeons for release.

And horse boxes.

Well, they are hardly birds. Hon. Members will also know that nearly £500,000 is distributed annually in prize money for these pigeons. In addition, throughout the country, from Her Majesty the Queen downward, there are many people who have lofts, and indeed I am told by the experts that investment in this activity is something in the region of £5 million in lofts and birds.

I have read the description, after seeing the Amendment. One point I could not understand was

"under such circumstances as shall not amount to larceny at common law."

The point is quite simple. If one intentionally commits a larceny against the dovecotes or possessions of a pigeon fancier, one is subject to imprisonment. This is to protect the pigeon in flight. Section 23 of the Act of 1861 is an admirable Section. Unfortunately, as things are, there is danger, if this legislation goes forward, of reverting to the law of the 17th century when pigeons were not protected.

All of us will congratulate the noble Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) on securing the passage of this Bill. I wish to pay my personal tribute to her capable pilotage of the Bill through the tortuous channels of Committee and the open seas of Report stage.

I, also, wish to pay my tribute to the noble Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir), who has done a very good job in respect of this Bill, although I must say that I do not agree with every one of its provisions. It is always necessary to remember that if we want the provisions of a Bill of this character to work, wild-fowlers and other people who shoot must feel that they are just, because, otherwise, it is quite impossible to compel adherence to the law. In large measure that depends on the consciences of people.

The hon. Gentleman can provide the answers.

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that in such circumstances one can sometimes supply the answers.

It would be a pity if ever the tradition were established that only Members of a Committee should intervene in debates on Report and Third Reading, even though the intervention of the hon. Member for Garston (Sir V. Raikes) seems to indicate that he will be the first casualty under the Bill, because he threatens to break the law which we are setting up today, and that may necessitate a by-election in his constituency.

I wish to add my sincere congratulations to my noble Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) for the way in which she has conducted the discussions on this Bill, especially as I have probably caused her more trouble over it than anyone. It is fitting that she should have promoted this Bill, being the daughter-in-law of one who promoted another Bill in this House. It is also interesting to note as we heard today, that this Measure was supported by one whose father also promoted a Bill in this House.

There is no provision about that in the Bill, so it would not be in order to discuss the matter at this stage.

Hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton), have talked about the brent goose. There is no doubt that the bird is completely protected. But without going into the arguments about who did it, I would say that further inquiries have resulted in the knowledge that there are considerably more brent geese on the South and East coasts than was appreciated early in the Committee.

Like the hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr. King) I do not agree that only those who take part in a Committee stage should talk about the Bill later. This Measure may have a profound effect upon the nation. I congratulate the noble Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) and all Members of the Committee for attempting to preserve a little bit of brightness and happiness in our country.

I should like to make one comment about authorised persons, the people who are to be allowed to sell wild duck eggs. I understand that it is the general intention that they should be the landowners, the fanners, the game farmers, the keepers or their servants, but I am not clear about that. Is the provision automatic? Will people have to apply and, if so, to what authority will they have to apply for a licence to sell eggs? That ought to be made clear. It should be made reasonably easy, otherwise there is bound to be a certain amount of cheating, especially in the case I mentioned of a fresh fowl nest with the mother killed and in which there are eggs which, if they become chilled, will be of no use.

It is sometimes said that in the House of Commons on Fridays we take more care of the lower creatures than we are apt to take of our own kind. That would be a quite wrong accusation to make against the noble Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir). The first time I had the pleasure of hearing her was when she spoke on behalf of Scotland at a meeting of the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, when she indicated that her sympathies were very wide and included the most distressed portion of her kind. Therefore, I am very happy indeed to join in the congratulations which have been tendered on her performance today.

I should first like to join the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) in expressing the thanks of the Government to Lord Ilchester and those who worked with him. I think they will feel that their work was justified when the Bill leaves this House, and, indeed, when it reaches the Statute Book.

May I interrupt my hon. Friend to thank him for those remarks?

The Bill will be a valuable and effective Measure. As my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for East Grinstead (Colonel Clarke) said, it is more than a code of law; it should be a code of conduct. I think that is the right kind of Measure in this connection, and the sort of thing that I should hope to hear from those who are interested in wild birds, from whatever point of view, is that anyone who breaks the provisions of this Bill deserves to be put in the Second Schedule. That is the kind of spirit that one hopes this Bill will engender. It is certainly the spirit of the House today, and I congratulate my noble Friend upon having taken her Bill so successfully to this stage.

May I ask my hon. Friend whether, in another place, he will see that the law regarding carrier pigeons is clarified, because, at the moment, it is not?

I do not think that that is a question for me to answer at this stage on behalf of the Government. It is a point to be made in another place that the law does require clarification, and that will then be a matter for the Government. I understand that my noble Friend the promoter of the Bill intends to say something in winding up the debate, and I think she will probably answer the point which my hon. Friend has raised. I think that is the way it should be done.

Both my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) and the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Office have paid tribute to the good work that was done in this connection by the Earl of Ilchester's Committee. Strange as it may seem, I have at least one constituent who is a wild-fowler, even in such a metropolitan constituency as Brixton, and it is, at least, his view that the recommendation of, or the compromise suggested by, that Committee has not been fully carried out in this Bill.

As one who has followed these proceedings from the very start to their happy conclusion today, I should like to congratulate my noble Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) most warmly on all the work she has done. I think that what has been said throughout this debate has shown that it is quite possible to be an extremely keen sportsman and a keen naturalist. A happy feature of this debate is that it has not taken place on strictly party lines, and I feel sure that the birds of Britain will have benefited from this non-party approach.

The debate today has been a very pleasant Parliamentary experience. I was unfortunate in not being called upon to serve on the Committee which considered the Bill. That must have been a very pleasant experience also, to judge by tie charm, conciliatory attitude and ability with which my noble Friend steered the Bill through to its Report and Third Reading stages. I congratulate her upon her dexterity in handling the difficulties which arose in Committee, and I should say that membership of the Committee would have been a very pleasant experience, too.

I said young mallards.

I was unable to distinguish whether they were young or old, because they were far too fleet for me even to shoot. I suggest that mallards are sufficiently strong on the wing in August, especially in the later days of August, when a great many wildfowlers, and poor people whose only bit of shooting this is, get an opportunity of some sport during their holidays in August. If this matter could be examined again I think it would be found that no great damage would be done.

The hon. Member appears to be discussing an Amendment which was not selected.

I bow to your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, but I could not help feeling, as a result of the discussion, that if the Amendment had been found in order it would have had considerable support; but I will leave it at that point.

I should like to extend my congratulations to the noble Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) and to refer, first, to the advisory committee which will be responsible to the local government elected authorities. The conditions with regard to birds in our kaleidoscopic country must be so very different from one small part of a parish to another that we cannot have too much sub-division by the elected authorities who may have representative people to speak on the conditions of the area which they represent.

I do not wish to detain the House, but I think that I should reply to certain substantial points raised during this debate in reply to the Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department. Something should be said in reply to my hon. Friends the Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. H. Fraser) and the hon. Member for Reading, North (Mr. F. M. Bennett) concerning the racing pigeon.

I presume that the noble Lady has the leave of the House to make a second speech.

Hear, hear.

I thank the House very much.

"Domestic pigeon gone feral"

Like the hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. Jack Jones), I have not had the opportunity of taking part in detailed consideration of this Bill, but as one who has been always interested in wild birds I should like to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) and her hon. Friends and all hon. Members on this Bill, which I consider to be excellent.

I beg to move, in page 2, line 1, to leave out Clause 3.

I beg to second the Amendment.

As the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. Skeffington) rightly said, in moving the withdrawal of this Clause he has met with expressions of opinion to the contrary in many quarters. I am bound to say that I am reluctant to see a Clause of this value go at this late stage. When one remembers how difficult it is for a Private Member to get a Private Member's Bill past all the obstacles which face it, it seems a great pity that a valuable Clause of this kind should be lost at the last minute.

Cannot we have it on the record?

I do not think it would be relevant to the Amendment under discussion, to which I must return.

I fully appreciate the arguments put forward by the hon. and learned Member for Hove (Mr. Marlowe). It was largely those arguments and considerations which led us, when this Bill was in Standing Committee, to resist the proposal now being made. I think that was the correct course, and that it has borne some fruit. Had we lost this Clause in Standing Committee, we should not have had the further statement by my hon. Friend this afternoon. I hope the Joint Under-Secretary of State will have an opportunity to amplify that statement before we leave the Clause.

That is the point I was making. The hon. Gentleman says that the House should remain vigilant. The difficulty is that however vigilant hon. Members may be, there is difficulty in asking a Question in this House regarding any instance relating to a chief constable or a police authority which ignores the administrative action and which is outside the Metropolitan area. In such a case I doubt whether it could be raised in this House however vigilant hon. Members may be.

I think I can claim to share the ingenuity of the hon. and learned Member for Hove in putting down Questions and raising matters in this House. I think that if a circular goes out from the Home Office, and following our debate this afternoon, in one way or another we shall be able to raise the matter.

I wish to join in the congratulations to the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. Skeffington) on seizing the opportunity provided by his success in the Ballot to bring forward this important and interesting Bill. I share the apprehensions of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hove (Mr. Marlowe) about this Amendment, which would result in Clause 3 being taken out of the Bill. Yesterday afternoon I had an opportunity to speak in the debate on the Budget statement and I mentioned—

Will the hon. Member please speak up a little?

I am addressing Mr. Deputy-Speaker.

Yes, but I wish to hear what the hon. Gentleman is saying.

I beg the hon. Gentleman's pardon, I did not mean to be discourteous. I hope he will shout out again if he cannot hear me.

I endorse what has been said by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. Skeffington). What he said was correct. I am very glad indeed that he has seen fit to take the steps which he has taken in this matter. I gladly give a definite undertaking, on behalf of my right hon. and learned Friend, that a circular on the lines which he described will be sent out and that it will cover all the matters which he mentioned.

I beg to move, in page 2, line 8, to leave out "(Miscellaneous Provisions)," and to insert "(Enforcement of Contracts)."

I beg to second the Amendment.

I beg to move, in line 1, after "1677." to insert "and,".

I beg to second the Amendment.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."

I can only deal now with what is left in the Bill, after the best part was taken out in the Amendment which was before the House on the Report stage. This is not such a good Bill as it was when originally drafted and when it went to Committee.

rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."