asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will issue long-service medals, free of charge, to members of the fire services.

A recommendation of the Central Fire Brigades Advisory Council that a long-service medal should be instituted for members of the fire services is under consideration and I hope that it will be possible to make an announcement shortly.

While that reply is gratifying, could not the right hon. and learned Gentleman say now that he is prepared favourably to consider this recommendation, and that such provision will be made, because it has been long expected?

I am sorry to have to ask the hon. Lady to be patient for a little while longer, but I hope it will only be a little while.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will ensure that school traffic wardens are appointed to all rural schools situated on Class A roads.

Under Section 1 of the School Crossing Patrols Act, 1953, it is for the county council, in rural areas, to decide what arrangements should be made for patrolling school crossings. I have no authority to issue any instructions on the subject.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when Her Majesty's Government intend to implement the recommendations of the Gowers Report on Health, Welfare and Safety in Non-Manual Employment.

I would refer the hon. Member to the answers which I gave on 16th February to the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas), and on 12th November to the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Padley) and other hon. Members.

Yes, but does the Home Secretary not think it is now time that a definite announcement was made of the intention of the Government to bring these recommendations into effect?

I have seen a great number of people since our suggestions were sent out for discussion. The last deputation was not long ago, and I must ask for further time for consideration before the announcement is made.

Is not the Home Secretary aware that many professional and clerical workers are working under conditions which even his own Department would not tolerate under the Factories Acts? Is it not time that something was done about it?

I fully appreciate the hon. Gentleman's point of view. I have had not only a lot of memoranda but also personal accounts of the conditions and I am fully seized of the problem.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been called to the increasing number of immigrants into this country, especially the group of 720 Jamaicans who are on their way; and, in view of the country's present difficulties, if he will consider putting some restrictions on the entry of such large numbers.

I am aware that a considerable number of British subjects from the Colonies have been immigrating into this country recently. There is no power to prevent any British subject taking up residence here.

Is it the policy of Her Majesty's Government to facilitate the export of large unemployment to Britain, and do these immigrants get the benefits of the services of the Welfare State at the expense of the British taxpayer?

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman bear in mind that the people in this country, with the exception of a very small minority, would deprecate strongly any iniquitous discrimination of the kind that the hon. Gentleman opposite wants?

Is it possible for the Home Secretary to say whether the number of immigrants is increasing, as the Question suggests?

It is difficult to get exact figures because there is no discrimination against any British subjects. There is no power to question British subjects entering the United Kingdom as to what they intend to do and how long they intend to remain. However, I have had information from the West Indies which suggests that about 2,000 people left there in the first four months of this year for the purpose of seeking employment in the United Kingdom. I think it would be safe to conclude from this that the number is increasing.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will now state what action he proposes to take on the Report of the Royal Commission on Capital Punishment.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he can make any further statement on the Gowers Committee on Capital Punishment.

The recommendations of the Royal Commission are receiving the consideration of Her Majesty's Government, but I am not yet able to make a statement.

I fully recognise the difficulties of the right hon. and learned Gentleman in coming to a decision on this Report, but will he nevertheless expedite his consideration of this matter, about which there is a good deal of public concern?

I will certainly do my best to meet the wish behind that question.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what local authorities he consulted before he issued Civil Defence Circular No. 7/1954 bringing to an end the scheme under which local authorities were authorised to contribute towards the removal expenses incurred by householders in moving their own furniture from bomb-damaged premises to temporary accommodation and back again to the original area.

It was not necessary to consult the local authorities about this decision, but factual information was obtained from the following councils: Liverpool, Bootle, Birmingham, West Bromwich, Battersea, Camberwell, Greenwich, Paddington and West Ham.

Is the Home Secretary aware that this circular may cause considerable hardship to hundreds of blitzed householders in West Ham who are not yet in permanent accommodation? Can he not provide for some machinery to assist them? They are perhaps exceptional cases, but there are hundreds, and I appeal to the right hon. and learned Gentleman to bring his generosity to bear on this situation.

As the hon. and learned Gentleman will appreciate, the last bomb in West Ham fell during the night of 17th to 18th March, 1945, so his constituents have had nine years in which to get their position right under the scheme. If, however, he would like to give me further information about what is suggested in his supplementary question, I shall be glad to consider whether there is anything I can do.

While appreciating particularly the latter part of that reply, may I ask the Home Secretary whether he is aware that because of its peculiar position, both financially and from the effects of the blitz, West Ham is the only local authority in the country which is receiving a special Exchequer grant from the Treasury, which shows that it should receive special treatment? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman see whether he can give West Ham special treatment in this matter?

I will certainly take into account what the hon. Gentleman has said.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, following disturbances at St. Mary Cray, Kent, on 24th April, how many youths dressed in Edwardian suits were taken to the local police station for questioning; and in how many cases charges have been made.

The answer to the first part of the Question is 37, and to the second, eight.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman appreciate that there is a great deal of concern over a large area of north-west Kent that this hooliganism can be repeated in the quieter parts of the Kent countryside? Would he say whether he considers this hooliganism a dangerous tendency or something about which we must not be too concerned? If he thinks it is dangerous would he encourage the public in the quieter parts, for example, in country railway stations, to contact the police when these youths appear and ask them to keep an eye on them?

There are two main Questions on the Order Paper to which we shall come in a moment and I would rather not comment upon a case which is sub judice.

Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman give an assurance that these summonses were not taken out just because these youths were wearing Edwardian suits?

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what action he proposes to take to stamp out the hooliganism practised by young persons who have in various parts of the country banded themselves into gangs known as Edwardian gangs and who by the reason of their brutality are becoming a menace to law-abiding citizens.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what complaints he has received about the conduct of juvenile gangs in Edwardian garb in various parts of South London; and what action he is taking.

I have received few representations on this subject, but I am aware that in certain parts of London youths affecting the dress mentioned associate together, and the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis assures me that the police are on the alert to suppress any tendency to hooliganism on the part of these youths.

In the six months ended 31st March last, 24 persons under 21 years of age, and operating in groups of three or more, were arrested in the Metropolitan Police district for indictable offences involving violence against the person, and 456 youths were arrested for other offences involving rowdyism.

I have received reports on isolated incidents in other parts of the country, but on present information I have no reason to suppose that the problem is widespread or that the police are not taking appropriate action.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that many magistrates who serve in juvenile courts are very deeply concerned at their lack of power to deal with these youths of 16 and 17? Will he consider introducing amending legislation to give additional powers to the magistrates and also consider amending the legislation relating to cases involving assault and battery, so that magistrates can impose suitable corporal punishment?

On my hon. Friend's first point, I am very surprised at the suggestion in his question, because the powers that are open to magistrates are of almost infinite variety since the passing of the 1948 Act. On the second point, I have nothing to add to the speech that I made in the House.

Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman bear in mind that these louts who, long ago, should have been smacked on the behind by their parents, are, for the most part, weak characters who are easily led to a course of violence? Would he encourage social workers to establish contact with these empty-headed youths before the problem gets out of hand?

Certainly; I shall do anything that I can to encourage all people of good will who are ready to help in dealing with those who are addicted to crime.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that, bearing in mind the population of the Metropolitan area, the figures that he has given are not as bad as the Press might have led us to believe? Is he aware that an experiment has been made by the Rev. Douglas Griffiths, of Friendship House, which looks like having very successful results? Will he watch that experiment?

As the hon. Member can see, I have in front of me Press cuttings dealing with that experiment. I shall certainly watch it.

On a point of order. Is it not out of order to frame a Question with a descriptive adjective which casts a reflection or an implication on someone alive or dead? Instead of using the word "Edwardian," would not the proper description be "young thugs," leaving it at that?

I see nothing unparliamentary in the use of the adjective "Edwardian."

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has received the Report of the Committee on Child Adoption; and what recommendations have been made on the adoption of British children by non-British subjects resident abroad.

I have not yet received the Report.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman do what he can to expedite the publication of this Report which, according to Press reports, has been compiled already? Would he bear in mind, for example, the case of the child who was taken to Hollywood by an American film star, which led to proceedings in a magistrate's court? Will he tighten up the child adoption law?

The Report is expected any day.

Are considerable numbers of children being taken abroad now by non-residents as they were some years ago?

I should like to-have notice of that question.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many members of the Metropolitan Police Force have, in each of the last five years, been convicted under the police discipline code for giving false evidence; and what penalties were imposed in each case.

There were no such cases in the years 1949–52. In 1953, one officer was found guilty on a charge of falsehood under the police discipline code and was fined; and two officers who were sentenced to nine months' imprisonment for perjury were dismissed.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman think it desirable that officers found guilty of this very serious offence should continue in the force?

I hope that the hon. Member will not press that point, because I am the appeals authority under the Police Appeals Act. These things may come to me, and as an appellant authority I cannot lay down a principle which might preclude consideration of special facts.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, with a view to reducing the number of road accidents caused by reckless driving, he will consider the use of mobile police in plain clothes.

I have consulted representative chief officers of police who assure me that they use, and will continue to use, plain clothes traffic patrols wherever they consider it necessary.

Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman say whether the experiment in Oxfordshire is continuing and, if so, how far it has had success in reducing important breaches of the motoring laws?

I should like to obtain up-to-date information. I had a look at this matter, but that was two or three months ago. I will obtain the information and let the right hon. Gentleman know.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department on what grounds a prisoner is not granted remission of sentence in respect of periods spent in hospital as a certified mental patient before his sentence expires.

A prisoner returning to prison from a mental hospital to which he was sent on being certified insane is normally granted remission in respect of the period spent in the hospital unless his conduct has been such as to suggest the propriety of another course, for example, if it appears that his insanity was feigned.

Does the Home Secretary recall the case at Wandsworth, which I brought to his notice a week or two ago, in which a man was certified as a mental patient while he was serving his sentence and was sent to Caine Hill and denied remission of sentence in respect of that period? Is it not unfair that a prisoner who becomes a mental case should be denied the privilege or entitlement that is normally given to a man who falls sick during the period of his sentence?

I have stated the general practice. I will examine the case to which the hon. and gallant Member has referred and will write to him about it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why relatives are not permitted to visit the graves of prisoners who have been executed and buried in prison.

I think it would be inappropriate to give facilities for this purpose.

I asked the Minister if he would say why this should not be done. Does he not realise the tremendous anxiety a mother feels if she cannot visit the grave of her son? Why perpetuate this most un-Christian attitude?

I appreciate what is in the mind of the hon. Member, but it is rare for any such request to be received and, secondly, anything which might produce undesirable demonstrations, or might pander to a morbid type of publicity, is to be deprecated.

Can the Minister explain why, in the case of the Spandau prisoners, who were convicted for mass murders, Her Majesty's Government requested the Russian Government, who have acquiesced—an announcement was made only last week—that the relatives of these, prisoners should be allowed facilities which are denied to the relatives of individual murderers in this country? Surely there should be equity of treatment.

I tried to explain that this Question deals with graves of prisoners who have been executed. The prisoners at Spandau have not been sentenced to execution, but have been sentenced to imprisonment and might die in prison. The question of discussions between Her Majesty's Government and another Government and the state of those discussions is, I suggest, a matter for my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary.

Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman consider whether it would be advisable to send the bodies of all prisoners who have been executed to a crematorium?

That is a matter which I should like to consider before giving an answer.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that Henry Rosefield, a prisoner at Parkhurst, was, previous to his death. removed from a hospital bed to a cold punishment cell; and by what method punishment cells are heated at this gaol.

At the time when the prisoner Henry Rosefield was reported for an offence and punished he was not a hospital patient. Certain allegations about the circumstances in which he underwent the punishment award were made at the inquest, where the prison medical officer gave evidence that he certified Rosefield fit for the punishment cells, that these were not colder than the rest of the prison, and that Rosefield's confinement there was not a contributory cause of death. The punishment cells are heated by hot air ducts from the prison central heating system.

Will the Minister inquire into this, because I understand that the ordinary cells are centrally heated but that the punishment cells have no heating whatsoever inside? The air has to be brought in from outside and cannot penetrate the thick walls. Would he consider whether punishment cells are suitable for persons who are really ill?

The suggestion in that question is contrary to my information, so I should be very glad to look into it and check what I have said. I would remind the hon. Member that in this case, when the man in question was reported and punished, he was not a hospital patient. I will look into the point and if the hon. Member has any particular facts to put forward I shall be glad if he will have a word with me, or write to me about them.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will give details of the offence committed by F. Simm and Michael Hogan at Parkhurst; and whether, in such cases, prisoners are allowed under his regulations the right of appeal against a decision to impose a sentence of flogging.

The offence was incitement to mutiny. There is no provision for appeal against an award of corporal punishment, but Section 18 of the Prison Act, 1952, provides that such an award shall not be carried into effect until it has been confirmed by the Secretary of State.

Is it not a fact that flogging is not administered except in the case of violence to officers? If it is a question of incitement to violence, does it not mean that the conditions in Parkhurst are so serious that they ought to be investigated? A Select Committee did look into the point and were very concerned about some of the conditions inside giving rise to dissatisfaction. Has the right hon. and learned Gentleman looked into that; if not, will he look into it?

Every case of corporal punishment is personally considered by the Home Secretary and this case was personally considered by me. The position was that about 600 prisoners were present. The incident was directed against the Governor personally and was intended as a demonstration against the three-shift time-table, which enables longer hours to be worked—a most desirable thing in every prison—which had been introduced that day.

I would point out to the hon. Member that the board of visitors discriminated between the two prisoners, 12 strokes being awarded to Simm and six to Hogan. Simm twice before during previous sentences had been convicted of incitement to mutiny, but corporal punishment was not administered. I went into the facts very carefully and I thought it a proper case. I think that in a situation like that, when the Governor is confronted with such a position, one has to apply the law.

asked the Minister of Labour the correct procedure to be followed by young men due for National Service who are ill and under the care of a general practitioner on the date of their call-up.

If a man is sick, or has met with an accident so that he will be unable to travel on the day on which he is due to report for service, a medical certificate should be sent by post immediately to the officer commanding the unit described on the enlistment notice. The procedure is set out on the reverse of the enlistment notice, a copy of which I am sending to the hon. Member.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that when that procedure was followed by a constituent of mine, details of whom have been supplied to the Secretary of State for War, the only result was that the certificate was ignored and the police took the young man into custody?

I am responsible only up to the issue of the enlistment notice. All I know of the case to which the hon. Lady referred is that, instead of the certificate being sent to the officer commanding the unit, I understand that it was taken to the police station, with distressing results.

That was the second medical certificate, the first having been ignored. Is the Minister aware that I put this Question down for answer by the Secretary of State for War, who disowned it and passed it on to the right hon. and learned Gentleman?

I have done my best.

asked the Minister of Labour the total number of National Service men who were medically rejected after being called up; and the number of those medically rejected when called up after being deferred, for 1948, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952 and the first half of 1953. respectively.

The number of men medically rejected in 1948, 1949, 1950, 1951 and 1952 was as stated in the reply given to the hon. Member on 1st December, 1953. The number of medical rejections for the first half of 1953 was 18,743.

In answer to the second part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to his similar Question on 23rd March, 1954.

Is the Minister aware that the figure given to me, which, if I remember rightly, was 75,000, was a conjecture by his Parliamentary Secretary, not a firm figure. It is because of that, and the remark which the hon. Member made that I could not count and that I should go to his Ministry for the figures, although he had to admit on that occasion that his figure was wrong, that I ask whether it is possible to get the numbers of those rejected after deferment, which will indicate whether what I asserted— that 100,000 escaped—was correct or otherwise.

There are two difficulties about giving an answer to that in figures. The number of people rejected when called up after deferment is one thing, and the number of people deferred who come into service three or five years later needs to be taken into account before one can say what number purport to escape. I should like, if the hon. Member will co-operate, to see him myself with my officers and show him the figures, so that he can see whether he is satisfied or whether he would prefer to put down another Question.

I will do that, and I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for his offer.

asked the Minister of Labour how many people were employed in the factories on the Pallion Trading Estate, Sunderland, on 31st March, 1951, 1952, 1953 and 1954.

The numbers of persons employed in the factories on the Pallion Trading Estate at the end of March were as follow: 1951–3,340; 1952–2,959; 1953–3,392; 1954–3,617.

Do these figures not show that during the period of office of this Government there has been considerable extension in the work done and employment available on the trading estates?

Has the right hon. and learned Gentleman compared these figures with those for previous years? Would he not agree that the figures are very disturbing? We are very concerned that two factories are vacant. Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman do all he can to assist the President of the Board of Trade to improve the position in Sunderland?

I shall certainly do my best to assist the President of the Board of Trade. I will look back to the figures for earlier years, but I find some comfort in the rising number of persons employed on the trading estates in the last few years.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that, in spite of the fact that two factories were closed, there has been increasing employment in the last few months?

asked the Minister of Labour what steps he is taking to overcome the redundancy and short working time now being experienced in the foundries of Ayr.

A fall in demand for marine castings has resulted in some redundancies and short-time working in two foundries in Ayr. Since last October, 26 men have become redundant but only two of them are now registered as unemployed. Twenty-four men are at present on short-time. Some fluctuations in demand affecting employment in the foundries are unavoidable, but I shall continue to watch the position.

While fully agreeing with my right hon. and learned Friend on the steps he is taking, may I ask whether he will bear in mind that this redundancy, or even the start of it, causes great anxiety to very highly-skilled workers? Will he constantly do what he can to overcome it?

indicated assent.

In supporting the hon. Member for Ayr (Sir T. Moore), may I ask whether the Minister will bear in mind that his hon. Friend's fears are occasioned by the time between the wars, when there were only two foundries working in the whole of Scotland?

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will take steps to prevent the operation of the closed shop, the so-called 100 per cent, shop, or any other form of compulsory member ship of specified trades unions in Government Departments where the purpose can be shown to be the destruction of an existing union and the compulsory recruitment of its members into other unions, as contrary to Article 11 of the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, which was ratified on behalf of Her Majesty's Government on 22nd February, 1951.

No such action is necessary. Moreover, the Article in question deals with freedom of association for a lawful object, including the right to form and join trade unions. This freedom is fully protected by existing law.

Would not my right hon. and learned Friend be disposed to take steps to invoke the operation of the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights at least on behalf of the employees of B.O.A.C., who are suffering economic sanctions by agreement within the National Joint Council for Civil Air Transport in order to force them to give up their membership of the Aeronautical Engineers Association?

The Question on the Order Paper related to people employed in Government Departments, and I understand that the supplementary question related to an airways corporation. It is suggested that I should take action because what was happening 'was contrary to Article 11 of the Convention. I am advised that there is no contravention of that Article.

Is the Minister aware that the same Convention demands freedom for people to join trade unions if they wish and not be discriminated against if they do so, and that that freedom is violated in many engineering establishments in respect of supervisory workers? Will the Minister do something about that?

I am well aware of the provisions of that Article; indeed, I drew attention to them in my original reply. If there is any contravention of them to which the hon. Member will draw my attention, I will look into it.

asked the Minister of Labour the sequel to the circulation last summer, on the suggestion of the National Joint Advisory Council, of the memorandum on double-shift working; and if he will give a list of the industries to which the memorandum was sent.

My letter about double-shift working invited 110 organisations of employers and workers in selected industries to consider whether there might be scope for an extension of the system at establishments where conditions were appropriate. While the letter did not ask for a specific answer a number of organisations have replied expressing acceptance of the principle of double-shift working though its use or extension must be dependent on local agreement and local industrial conditions.

I am sending to my hon. and gallant Friend a list of the organisations to which my letter was addressed.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend contemplate taking any further action at all in connection with this matter?

Yes, I am constantly urging the use of double-shift working in appropriate cases, but it is a matter on which one has to go slow. In many cases and many places there are disadvantages which have to be taken into account.

asked the Minister of Labour what progress has been made in finding alternative employment for the temporary assistant estate surveyors recently discharged from the Directorate of Lands and Accommodation.

Thirty-eight redundant assistant estate surveyors registered for employment at offices of the Ministry of whom eight were subsequently re-engaged by the Ministry of Works. One has been placed with another Government Department, and with the help of the Technical and Scientific Register, three have found work in private practice. The Ministry will continue to give them all possible help in finding fresh work for those still seeking employment.

Is the Minister aware that this matter ought not to lie where it is, and that the treatment has been rather dilatory, rather unimaginative and reflects no credit on the Government Departments concerned? Will he give it his personal attention and tidy it up?

I can assure the hon. Member that I have looked into this question. It is very difficult to find work suitable for these men other than those we have placed. The work which they have been doing in Government service has no exact counterpart in non-Government employment. Many of them are elderly, and unhappily, that makes some difference—I wish it did not. I have submitted their names to all the Government Departments who may have vacancies, to local authorities, new town corporations and private employers. I shall go on doing my best.

asked the Minister of Health what steps he proposes to take on the decision of the West Riding County Council to close almost all of the children's nurseries in their area.

asked the Minister of Health what action he proposes to take following the decision of the West Riding County Council to close three out of five day nurseries in the Shipley area.

The county council has made new proposals to my right hon. Friend regarding day nurseries, but he cannot fully consider them until the time allowed by the National Health Service Acts for comments to be made by local authorities and other interested bodies has expired.

When considering the case, when the time comes to do so, will my hon. Friend bear in mind especially the need of the constituency of Shipley? It relies enormously for its productivity in the dollar drive on the number of people who can obtain employment locally, and that important purpose does entail the use of nurseries?

Will the Minister also bear in mind that the West Riding County Council made its decision without taking into consideration industrial needs and the financial needs of some mothers?

I am sure that all these facts will be taken into consideration.

asked the Minister of Health whether he has yet investigated the cause of the fire at the Dellwood Maternity Home, Reading, on 18th April; and whether he is satisfied that all possible steps were taken to save the lives of the 13 babies who died as a result of the fire.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, North (Mr. F. M. Bennett) on 29th April. I understand, however, that the regional board's committee of inquiry met yesterday for the first time.

Would the Minister say that the inquiry will not be limited merely to the cause of the fire, but will also extend to subsequent events, and, in particular, will deal with the question of whether all proper steps were taken to save the lives of the babies who, unfortunately, died?

I am sure that the inquiry will cover that, but I will make certain that it does.

Will the right hon. Gentleman also see that among the matters inquired into is the length of time which elapsed before the discovery of the fire and the last time any member of the staff had gone in to look at the babies, and whether that lapse of time was inordinately long?

I am certain that that is one of the matters which will be inquired into. I am equally certain that we should not jump to conclusions either way until we have the evidence.

asked the Minister of Health if he has considered the health and atmospheric pollution aspects of the proposal to replace trolley omnibuses in London by omnibuses burning diesel oil; and if he will make a statement.

Atmospheric pollution in all its aspects is under consideration by the Air Pollution Committee set up by my right hon. Friends the Ministers of Housing and Local Government and of Fuel and Power and the Secretary of State for Scotland, on which my right hon. Friend is represented. Any statement must await the committee's report.

Will the hon. Lady consult her right hon. Friend to make sure that the findings of this committee are not unduly delayed, and that a report is forthcoming before the change-over to new transport is made?

I understand that this replacement is not scheduled to take place until 1957. This is a very complicated and difficult subject and, obviously, an inquiry must take some time.

asked the Minister of Health why he refused to grant a motor tricycle to Mr. John Lennon, a disabled ex-Service man, of 29, Watson Road, Birmingham, 8, despite the fact that this has made impossible Mr. Lennon's acceptance of an offer of training from the Ministry of Labour.

As the hon. Member has already been informed, the refusal was based on the conclusion reached by my medical advisers after several reviews of the case, that this patient's condition does not prevent him from using the available public transport to attend for training. I understand that my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Labour would be prepared to accept him for training relying on public transport, or, alternatively, at a residential centre.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the Ministry of Labour informed me quite specifically that their offer was dependent upon this tricycle being provided, but that as a result of it not being provided that offer has now fallen through, and that Mr. Lennon is fully supported in this by the views of his own doctor?

I am aware of the outline of the correspondence that the hon. Gentleman has had, but that was, I think, in January, 1954, and the latter part of my answer carries the story forward from then. There have been two further medical reviews. On this sort of matter one must take the medical opinion.

asked the Minister of Health whether he has now given consideration to the question of reducing waiting-time in hospital out-patients' departments; and what action he has taken.

As I have previously said, I regard this as a matter which is primarily one for local action by the hospital authorities themselves. I am, however, proposing to ask them to review their present arrangements.

Does the Minister realise how widespread are the complaints on this matter? Has his attention been drawn to the "Daily Express" today, which contains a very distressing account of a four-hour wait in a hospital after an appointment had been made? Has his attention been drawn to the "Manchester Evening Chronicle," which conducted investigations among all the hospitals in Manchester, with very revealing results?

There is an enormous variation between the very good, indifferent and very bad. I am following the articles in the "Daily Express," which are continuing. I am not, however, convinced that we can do very much by circular. I think we can do a great deal more by the pressure of public opinion in our different areas.

Is it not a fact that the main trouble is the lack of accommodation in many cases, particularly in Sheffield, and could my right hon. Friend not bear this in mind when demands for extra capital grants are made, particularly from the regional areas?

It is often lack of accommodation, but I would say that the main reason is lack of imagination. I hold the view that we can do a great deal more with a few pots of paint than with all the circulars I can issue.

Does the Minister recall the very valuable report of the Central Health Services Council on the care and attention of in-patients? Will the Minister consider asking that body if it will make a survey of the out-patient problem in the same way?

I should like to consider that.

asked the Minister of Health how many patients of the Birmingham egional Hospital Board are awaiting admission for major thoracic surgery due to tuberculosis of the lungs; and the average length of time such patients have to wait before being admitted.

On 30th April last the number was 461. The waiting time varies between seven weeks and one year according to circumstances.

Is the Minister aware that these figures are rather worse than those for the Liverpool, Manchester or Leeds boards? Can he say how he plans to improve the situation?

There is a very big variation between the 14 different regions in this speciality, which is one of increasing importance. So far as the Birmingham region is concerned, the regional board plan to build a new unit this year in the King Edward VII Sanatorium at Hertford.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that about six months ago he gave an answer on this subject in very similar terms to an hon. Member from the North-East region? Can he say what he is doing to relieve this very serious situation?

I have answered this particular question with regard to the Birmingham region. If the right hon. Lady would like particulars about another region I am sure she will be prepared to put a Question upon the Order Paper.

asked the Minister of Health whether he has noted the variation in the average waiting time, after inclusion in the waiting list, for patients who require major surgery for tuberculosis, cancer of lung and bronchus or bronchiectasis; and what steps he proposes to take to shorten the waiting time, particularly in Wales.

Yes, Sir. The length of waiting time is due primarily to the rapid increase in demand for thoracic surgery and the comparative shortage of thoracic surgeons and trained theatre staff. The number of surgeons has increased by 50 per cent, over the last three years and is likely to increase further; and the annual number of patients dealt with by thoracic surgery departments rose by over 18 per cent, in 1953 and has nearly doubled since 1949.

Is the Minister aware that in Wales, for example, the waiting period for tuberculosis before treatment is offered is not one year but up to two years, and for bronchiectasis up to five years, which is rather a long time? Will he increase the number of appointments of consultants for this speciality so that geographical considerations do not determine whether people live or die?

We are doing all we we can to iron out the serious discrepancies between the regions. One of the methods is by consultation between the senior assistant medical officers to see whether a region, where the situation is comparatively good, can help another, where it may be nothing like so good. The hon. Member will know from his own experience that this problem has become much more urgent, because the enormous advances in surgery in the last few years has meant that so many cases are amenable to operation.

Will the Minister consider concentrating cases in need of chest surgery in a relatively large hospital so that so much time shall not be wasted by surgeons travelling from hospital to hospital, and better work may be done because of the treatment that trained staff can give? I believe that a lot could be done in that way.

I should like to consider the implications of that suggestion. It is a far-reaching proposal.

In view of the success gained from the sending of a number of patients to Switzerland and the length of the waiting time in this country for treatment, will the Minister consider extending the Swiss scheme? There is accommodation there for patients.

That is another question.

asked the Minister of Health why he has not reappointed Dr. Stark Murray to the South-West Metropolitan Hospital Board.

In making this and other changes, I have followed the example of my predecessors in introducing new members at regular intervals to the boards, so as to widen the opportunity for service on them.

Is the Minister aware that this doctor has been one of the most capable and conscientious members of a very good hospital board? Does he not agree that it would be a bad thing if he determined the appointment of excellent men merely because they have been six years on the board? Above all, can he assure the House that political considerations did not enter into this since Dr. Stark Murray is a leading Socialist doctor and his successor is a leading anti-Socialist doctor?

I do not think that anyone knows more from his own knowledge about the appointments I make to these boards than the hon. Member. If he looks at not one instance, but at all the instances, and at other boards, he will know that there is no foundation for his suggestion.

Can my right hon. Friend tell the House how many Members of Parliament were originally appointed to the hospital boards and to what political parties they belonged? Will he promise the House that when Members, or their wives, fail to attend board meetings he will not reappoint them?

In the original appointments made to regional hospital boards, six Members of Parliament were appointed. Subsequently, the number was increased to nine, and. by a strange coincidence, all nine were Socialists.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether, before he made his decision, he was informed that this very able doctor was a founder member of the Socialist Medical Association?

I appoint people for medical and not political reasons.

Can my right hon. Friend tell the House by whom Dr. Stark Murray was replaced, and what are his qualifications?

He was replaced by Mr. Lawrence Abel, one of the most distinguished surgeons in the country.

asked the Minister of Health the estimated cost of hospitals running market gardens.

I regret that this information is not separately available. Trading accounts are, however, being introduced in a standard form from 1st April, 1954, for both hospital farms and market gardens.

Is the Minister aware that it is generally considered that there is a heavy loss made on this? Will he change his policy, as there are plenty of market gardeners who are prepared to produce fresh well-grown food and vegetables at a reasonable price, instead of hospitals wasting the taxpayers' money by making these losses?

Yes. Apart from circulating them on the proper keeping of trading accounts, I have recently asked all hospitals to refrain from farming activities so that they do not indulge in activities which can best be done by ordinary farmers

asked the Minister of Health if the Sheffield Regional Hospital Board has yet approved a scheme for the modification of the boilers of the Leicester Royal Infirmary; and on what date it is expected that the work will be commenced.

I am informed that the board are obtaining tenders for part of the scheme immediately and expect to be able to invite tenders for the remainder within a few weeks. It is not possible to state on what date the work will be commenced, but the board hope that the main portion of the scheme will be completed before next winter.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that all over the country out-of-date hospital boilers are wasting coal and putting up maintenance costs quite unnecessarily? Will he bear that in mind in future, and the high cost of replacement, when making capital allocations to the regional boards?

Yes, Sir. I said that in reply to a Parliamentary Question from the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East (Mr. Blenkinsop) a week or two ago.

asked the Minister of Health what percentage of Section 5 pay-beds were unoccupied in the hospitals under his direction during each of the last three years.

I regret that no figures are available before July, 1952. For the periods July to December, 1952, January to June, 1953, and July to December, 1953, the figures for non-mental hospitals are 34–5, 30–4 and 34–5 respectively.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that these figures show a terrible waste of beds? Large numbers of waiting non-paying patients could quite well use these beds if the Minister would give instructions that they should be used, and such instructions were carried out.

I did that in August last year, and the results of it are not apparent in these figures. I hope that they will very substantially reduce the percentage of non-occupied beds.

Can the Minister say whether this whole question comes within the terms of reference of the Guillebaud Committee?

Without having the terms of reference in mind, I see no reason why the Guillebaud Committee should not make recommendations on that.

asked the Minister of Health (1) whether he is aware of the hardship caused by the refusal of hospital committees to accept a compromise payment where the injured person is unable to secure compensation otherwise than a payment as an act of grace; and what action he will take;

(2) whether he is aware that the Woolwich Group Hospital Management Committee have declined to make any exception to the legal position which applies when an insurance company makes a payment to the victim of a road accident who has received treatment in a National Health Service hospital, in particular in the case of Mr. Harry Kendall, R.T.A. No. 1610; and if he will direct the Woolwich Management Committee to agree to a reasonable compromise.

This is essentially a matter for the discretion of hospital authorities; but I have asked the Woolwich Group Hospital Management Committee to look into the possibility of waiving the charges under the Road Traffic Acts in this case, and I propose to inform hospital authorities generally that I should see no objection to their doing so in such cases if there are reasonable grounds.

Thank you very much.

asked the Minister of Health how many women are on the waiting lists for gynæcological treatment for repair of prolapse; the average period of waiting; and what is being done to provide more speedy treatment for such cases.

The information asked for in the first two parts of the Question is not available, but the number of beds allocated to this work and the number of patients treated by the hospital service since 1949 have steadily increased.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that bodies like the

It is true that there is a slight increase in the waiting list, but the waiting time, which is a great deal more important, has, in fact, been steadily reduced recently because of the greatly increased turnover in these cases. However, I quite agree that it is a most important and serious matter, and I am watching it.

asked the Minister of Health the number of beds and the number of nursing staff in St. Mary's, University College, St. Charles, Paddington, and Queen Charlotte's Hospitals, respectively.

Since the reply contains a number of figures I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Having studied these figures, will the Minister note the grave disadvantages which hospitals that are not teaching hospitals suffer in regard to staffing, and will he do something to remedy this state of affairs?

There is certainly a difference in the staff ratio between ordinary and teaching hospitals—there always has been—but they perform very different functions.

asked the Minister of Health what recommendations he makes to hospital boards with regard to the system of checking stores to be used in hospitals; and what improvements have been made in recent years in the methods employed at Paddington Hospital.

Instructions about the preparation and checking of inventories have been issued from time to time, and a further circular about the ascertainment and prevention of stores losses generally will shortly be issued. I will let the hon. Member have a copy of this as soon as possible. I understand that no material alterations have been made in recent years in the system employed at Paddington Hospital and that the usual safeguards for preventing losses are in force.

Is the Minister aware that in a recent court case an attack was made by the magistrate and a detective on the methods employed at Paddington Hospital, the implication being that public funds were being thrown away since the nationalisation of the hospital? Can the right hon. Gentleman see that equal publicity is given to his answer?

I am sure that equal publicity will be given to this. I have noted the case which the hon. Gentleman has in mind.

asked the Minister of Health what proportion of patients in mental hospitals are 65 years of age and over; and what variations there have been in this proportion over the last few years.

Figures for 1953 are not yet available, but at the end of 1952 the proportion was 28.8 per cent. compared with 28·1 in 1951, 27·4 in 1950, and 26·6 in 1949.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree, in view of the very high proportion of elderly persons in our mental hospitals, that it is very important that we should try to do more to establish possibly residential homes for the care of those who are perhaps confused cases rather than mental cases proper?

I do not dissent from what the hon. Gentleman says, but it is a good deal wider than his Question.

As there is grave concern about the number of old people who are being certified because there is no opportunity of their obtaining accommodation in an ordinary hospital, will the Minister give instructions that no persons are to be certified in order to get them into hospital unless there is something definitely mentally wrong with them?

I would rather study that first. Perhaps the hon. Lady will put a Question upon the Order Paper.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement on the differences of opinion that have arisen between Her Majesty's Government and the United States Government on the subject of Indo-China both before and during the Geneva Conference.

I think I should prefer to leave that mischief-making process to the hon. Member.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that there are such grave rumours of differences current in Washington that Senator Knowland has said that Britain is no longer a dependable ally, and that "The Times," a very responsible organ, has suggested that the Government should make a statement of this kind to produce a more calming atmosphere? Does the right hon. Gentleman not know that only yesterday his own Minister of State said that no discussions at all had taken place about a South-East Asian defence pact while, at the same time, President Eisenhower was saying that substantial progress has been made.

I hope that when a statement is made of our relations with the United States it will cover not only divergencies on points of policy, but also those great factors of unity without which our survival would be in danger, and theirs, possibly, in danger, too.

Why should the right hon. Gentleman assume that a Question of this kind is mischief-making when it is quite clear that there has been trouble in the United States as to exactly our attitude, and when a little clarification might make for better understanding and not mischief-making, which is far from the wish of those on this side of the House?

I think it is quite possible that a general statement upon the relations might be advantageous, but not a statement on the differences of opinion at this juncture.

But if there is a difference, it is just as well to clear it up. It is not emphasising a difference to try to get rid of it.

Ask "Nye."

Is the Prime Minister going to say nothing about these very important differences in statements of fact which have taken place between this country and the United States, in view of the fact that the Minister of State has told the House quite categorically on no fewer than three occasions in the past 10 days that no discussions were taking place on the South-East Asian defence pact and that President Eisenhower has now publicly called him a liar? Is it not time that the right hon. Gentleman told us who is right? If President Eisenhower is right the Minister of State should apologise to this House.

That is just an example of the tendency I was deprecating. I must say that I think it utterly untrue to suggest that President Eisenhower called my right hon. and learned Friend a liar.