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Television Bill

Volume 531: debated on Tuesday 27 July 1954

The text on this page has been created from Hansard archive content, it may contain typographical errors.

Order read for consideration of Lords Amendments.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered." — [ Mr. Gammans.]

3.53 p.m.

I beg to move to leave out "now," and at the end of the Question to add: "upon this day three months."

This is an unusual Amendment, but this is an unusual situation. It is an unusual situation in that this is an unusual Bill, with no electoral mandate behind it. Moreover, whilst realising that I must not discuss the merits of the Bill itself—and I do not propose to do so—I must call attention to the procedure which has been adopted in connection with this Measure.

Here, without provocation and, in our judgment, without need, a Guillotine was imposed upon us. Consequently, the debates on the Bill were inadequate, and we would prefer more time in which to consider the Amendments which have come down from another place. That Guillotine was a pretty cruel and harsh affair, and, having regard to this part of the history of the procedure on the Bill, we feel that there is no need to hasten the consideration of this series of important Amendments which have reached us from their Lordships' House. In connection with the discussion of the Lords Amendments in their Lordships' House, it is the case that in a sense they themselves were guillotined.

Here was an important Bill going to another place. The Government tried to get the Committee stage through in two days. They actually got it through in three days which, I think, was all too short a time for their Lordships' House to consider the Measure. How did the Government do that? They did it by threatening to keep their Lordships up all night—and some of them are not of years when they wish to sit up all night. I do not say that scornfully but understandingly.

Therefore, the Government, without a formal Guillotine, which I think, although I am not quite sure, they could not easily impose upon their Lordships, have in effect imposed one on them by threatening to keep them up all night unless they did as they were told. That seems to me to be pretty shameful. Three days was too short a period for them to consider the important matters involved in the Bill and the various Amendments, and to discharge the functions of revision for which their Lordships' House is deservedly famous. Consequently, therefore, this Bill has not been adequately considered either here or in another place.

4.0 p.m.

Quite shortly after the Third Reading in another place we get these Amendments before us, and we get them right at the end of a Session of Parliament before the break-up for the Summer Recess. In these circumstances, it seems to us that there is no bursting hurry to get this Bill through this side of the Summer Recess. Nobody wants it, except a few vested interests represented by a handful of Members on the other side of the House who dictate to the Government. Their dictation to the Government is a more serious offence than is the dictation of a larger body on other matters, which comes from the "supreme Soviet" upstairs, namely, the 1922 Committee.

Therefore, it appears to us that nothing will be lost, except perhaps the Bill—which would be a good thing—but even that, I am afraid, will not be lost if the further consideration of their Lordships' Amendments is held over until the House comes back after the Summer Recess. It will give us more time to consider these Amendments. We have to rush our consideration. We have been unduly pushed for time in drafting Amendments to the proposed Amendments. In all the circumstances, I think it is reasonable that, instead of the Lords Amendments being taken today, we should postpone that matter for three months.

I want to support my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison), for these reasons. Neither the advertisers nor the advertising agents are ready at this stage to operate commercial television—and no wonder. For a year now they have been confused and bemused by the alterations to the Bill. At first, they were to have sponsored television, and this was a perfectly simple thing for clever advertising agents and their not so intelligent clients to understand, for here was a model set before us by the United States, and all that was necessary was to send the youngest members of the agency to the United States with a comfortable spending allowance to find out what the American advertisers were doing. This was something which the advertisers and the advertising agents could understand.

But then the Bill was changed, and we were not to have sponsorship, and so the advertising agents and the advertisers had to go into a huddle again to find out how they could alter the plans to meet the new situation. Before the Bill left this House, it was altered still further, giving greater complication to the advertisers and the agents, and now the Lords Amendments come to alter the Bill again. I do not think we want to get into a situation where the advertisers and the advertising agents are forced to take action which they do not want to take. It would be a deplorable thing—and I am sure that we shall have an opportunity of dealing with this later on—if they had to rely simply on the canned television programmes which are now waiting on the quays in New York—

It is not relevant to this Motion to discuss the Amendments to the Bill.

What I was trying to do, Mr. Speaker, was to illustrate the need to give people who have to operate commercial television more time to decide how it could be operated. If they were given a little longer time to study the effects of the changes in the Bill made in this House and the changes proposed to be made by another place, they would be better fitted to present to the country commercial television in a form which would be acceptable. It is because the alternative is confusion and bad imported programmes, that I hope the Government will give serious consideration to this Amendment.

There is a case for postponing consideration of the Lords Amendments on a number of grounds, but I want to put only two grounds briefly. There has been a suggestion, which appeared to be sympathetically considered by the Government, that before we finally dispose of the Bill altogether they should give some indication of the membership of the Authority. There are a lot of rumours going round. Everybody knows that Lord Soulbury's name is mentioned as a possible Chairman, and we hear that certain other people are considered. One reason for postponing the final consideration is, as was suggested by my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede), that Parliament should have an opportunity of knowing who are to be the members of the Authority before we dispose of the Bill.

The second ground is that it is quite disgraceful that the Government have proceeded with this unimportant Bill in preference to a number of others which are much more important and which some of my hon. Friends and the Government know are urgently needed. We would like to know why we should have to deal with this Bill today instead of getting on with something which would be for the common weal.

I quite understand that the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) would like to postpone this Bill. He has never hidden his dislike of the Bill, and he would like to do away with it altogether. I can quite understand that, but I hope I shall be able to convince the Opposition that they have not been unfairly treated. To start with, we have already spent an enormous amount of time on this Bill. We spent two days on Second Reading, seven days in Committee, and two days on Report and Third Reading. That is quite outside the time that we spent in considering the White Papers upon which this Bill is based.

My second point is that there have been five whole days since the Lords Amendments were put down and that that time has been quite sufficient for hon. Members to put down a number of Amendments. I think it was last Thursday that the Lords Amendments were finally decided.

Will the Minister say how many Parliamentary days the Opposition have had since then and the time that the Lords Amendments appeared on our Order Paper?

It was last Thursday that the Lords Amendments were finally decided, and I should have thought that gave ample time to hon. Members opposite. In fact, it has proved ample time because they have put down a number of Amendments.

My third point is that almost all the Amendments that we are considering today were put down in the other place by Labour Peers; in other words, they are Labour Amendments. Further, almost all the points that we are discussing in these Amendments have already been discussed in this House, some of us think, almost ad nauseam.

My final point is that in these Amendments which their Lordships have submitted there is no point of substance which really alters the main structure of the Bill. Therefore, if we consider those arguments, I do not think the Opposition can have any legitimate case for suggesting that they have been unfairly treated, other than the grievance which I know they have—and I do not blame them for having it—namely, that they dislike the Bill altogether. For those reasons, I cannot accept this Amendment.

The Assistant Postmaster-General was quite unconvincing in the remarks he made. We have had only two Parliamentary days—which certainly is not long enough—to study the Amendments and statements made in another place. It is necessary, in considering them, to go through the debates which have taken place and the arguments which have been put forward. It may be that certain of the Amendments, if not the majority of them, were put forward by Opposition Peers. That would be an additional reason for hon. Members opposite to study them. It may be that hon. Members opposite are not very keen on those Opposition Amendments, because they opposed them during debates in this House.

It was suggested that there has been an enormous amount of time spent on this Bill. That might have been true if the Bill which is now in its last stage were similar to the original White Paper and the original Bill, but there have been so many changes as it passed through this House and another place that the time to discuss those changes has not been adequate from our point of view. As the Assistant Postmaster-General knows, a very large number of the Amendments that we put down were not discussed in this House, but some of them were very important indeed. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) pointed out, even in another place the business was rushed towards the end and inadequate time was given to the discussion of the Amendments.

One further reason why we need more time in which to consider these Lords Amendments and why this Amendment should be accepted is that there are contradictions between what has been said in another place and what was said in this House by the Assistant Postmaster-General. There has been a change of front on the part of the Postmaster-General in quite a few particulars. Statements were made in another place which completely contradicted what was said here by the Assistant Postmaster-General. It will take some little time to find out from the Assistant Postmaster-General exactly where the Government stand now, the reasons those changes were made and what exactly are the interpretations we should put, not only on some of the Lords Amendments, but on some of the statements made in another place. I therefore suggest to the Home Secretary that he should give consideration to this Amendment and consider whether we could not be given more time to study the Lords Amendments.

The Government are obviously determined to finish with this wretched Bill, judging by the remarks of the Assistant Postmaster-General. Referring to previous discussions, he said that we had had discussions ad nauseam. I think it is obvious from that remark, and from the way in which the Guillotine was introduced, that the Government wanted to cut down discussion altogether.

We are concerned, not only with adequate discussion, but with the proper kind of discussion. We shall not get that unless we have proper time in which to study the Amendments made in another place and decide exactly how we should proceed. It is all very well for the Assistant Postmaster-General to say that the Bill was finished in another place just a few days ago. Is he of opinion that we have had nothing else to do in the past few days? This is not the only Bill which has been pushed through at the last moment.

We have had the Scottish Town and Country Planning Bill. This matter is very relevant to the argument whether the Television Bill should be dealt with at present. The Town and Country Planning Bill has not even reached Report stage in this House and the Government are so anxious to ensure that Scottish hon. Members should get down to the business of considering it that the Government have sent them a brief of 34 pages with the proposed Amendments, and reasons for those Amendments, to that Bill.

How are we to give adequate attention to that sort of thing, to the Food and Drugs Amendment Bill, to teachers' superannuation and such things all in the glorious five days when the Assistant Postmaster-General has been counting his days of freedom before once again having to face the Commons with this horrible Bill? I know that he is sick of the sight and sound of it; so have we been from the moment we first read it. We want to make it as innocuous as possible and to have proper time to study the Amendments made in another place.

I sincerely hope that at this stage the Assistant Postmaster-General will not expect us to believe everything he says about what has happened to the Bill. He has given so many assurances and said so many things about this Bill, he has changed his mind about it so much, that we should resist any suggestion that now is the time, and only now, when we can discuss the Lords Amendments.

4.15 p.m.

I want to support my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) in his plea that consideration of the Lords Amendments should be postponed for three months. I do so because we have had very short notice of these Amendments. Altogether there are 21 Lords Amendments, which I saw for the first time yesterday, and there are 31 Amendments in all to the Bill in its present form. I say that the Government are rushing this thing indecently.

The Assistant Postmaster-General referred to the time that has been taken on the Bill and said that we had seven days on the Committee stage in this House and that there were three days left for the Lords to get through what we had done in seven days. I should say that the amount of time the Lords gave to the Bill was entirely inadequate, especially when regard is had to the fact that the seven days we had were that amount only because of the Guillotine. Had there been free discussion of this Bill, it would have taken much longer, both in this House and in another place.

There are two reasons why the Motion should not be accepted. First, this House ought to be considering matters of very great importance to the country and not considering this Bill. It is a shame that miners' safety has had to be sacrificed in order that the interests of commercial friends of this Government could be looked after. The Mines and Quarries Bill is of far greater consequence to the people of this country than is the Television Bill. It is astonishing that, although my hon. Friends were pressed to hurry on with that Bill if they wanted it before the Recess, we should now find that it has to take its turn behind commercial television. That is going too far. It is treating the House wrongly. It shows a wrong sense of values. In this matter the Assistant Postmaster-General is treating the House of Commons very harshly.

I see the Minister of Fuel and Power present. It is for him to say whether or not in Committee upstairs hon. Members from mining constituencies were told that if they wanted the Mines and Quarries Bill they had to hurry. I should have thought that when we were discussing the Motion "That the Lords Amendments be now considered" we were entitled to say that the time could be more usefully employed and that the time of the House of Commons ought not to be used on what we regard as something representing a minority interest.

There is a second reason for opposing the Motion. It is the amount of time we have had to study the Amendments which have come from another place. As the Assistant Postmaster-General knows, many of the Amendments accepted by his noble Friend in another place completely contradict the stand the Assistant Postmaster-General took in this House when we discussed the Bill. In that way the Postmaster-General has been far more gracious and has acquired far more credit in another place than the Assistant Postmaster-General has in this House. It would be only fair to this House for the discussion not to take place today in order that we might have much more adequate time to see what is being proposed by the Lords Amendments in connection with a Bill which no one wants, except minority commercial interests in the City.

There are two points that strike me about this matter. The first is that it seems most undesirable to appoint the members of an authority, particularly of this Independent Television Authority, just at the moment when we are all going away and the House will not sit for some months. We do not at present know who they are going to be. At the earliest possible moment after they are appointed a statement about their remuneration, and so on, has to be made. That we shall not be able to consider until we come back in October. Whether meanwhile they will be paid or unpaid, I do not know. What happens supposing the remuneration proves, in the view of the House, to be unsatisfactory because it is either too large or too small?

As a matter of general principle, one has to remember that this Authority is the only safeguard between the programme contractors and the advertising agents on the one hand and the public on the other, and without going into the merits of the matter it is perfectly clear that the members of the Authority will have a function to fulfil of the highest possible importance in a matter which has divided public opinion all over the country not at all on ordinary party lines. I would suggest that for that reason alone it is bad practice to put into law just at this moment a Bill which depends so largely on the constitution of the Authority and of public approval of that Authority when it is constituted.

There is another matter. I do not, of course, want to promote any fratricidal strife between the Tory Party in another place and here. I do not want to encourage it in any way, but I feel that another place has had a very rough time in this matter and that which it has been unable, for reasons of time, to consider fully needs more detailed consideration here; and the more time to prepare that consideration. What I have in mind is this. I understand that it is not the practice to have the Guillotine in another place. There is something rather Alice in Wonderland in that in this country we should Guillotine the Commons and never Guillotine the Lords.

Of course, it is true in the nature of the case that the Guillotine is a threat of eternity. In this instance, unable to offer their Lordships a threat of eternity, the Government apparently offered them a threat of a number of sleepless hours in the middle of the night. I understand that at one period, when they had got to an Amendment, No. 16, they were told they had to get to Amendment No. 60 before they went to bed. That kind of thing does not promote proper detailed consideration of a matter on which in another place very strong and very different opinions were held and on which it was wholly appropriate that special points of view should have been expressed and expressed fully.

Without wishing unduly to protect their Lordships from the Tory Party, I feel that if ever there was a case for doing it this is it, and that this is the time to say that they have not really had the chance to express themselves fully, they have not really had the chance of considering all these matters in the way they would have liked to have considered them, they have not even had the chance of considering fully all the possible Amendments. All we are getting here are the hurried truncated fruits of the Government's threat to keep those elderly and distinguished persons out of the beds which they no doubt desired, and in a spirit of courtesy towards another place, and to prevent these bullying tactics of the Tory Party in the future, I suggest that the Government be called upon to pay the penalty of delaying a Bill, which nobody wants and about which there is no hurry, for a while, until we come back later in the year.

I think the Assistant Postmaster-General was a little optimistic when, in such a brief and inadequate speech, he hoped to convince the Opposition of the desirability of proceeding to consider the Lords Amendments. When we have considered the Lords Amendments the Bill will pass out of the control of the House. If the Lords Amendments should be agreed to, the Bill will go straight for the Royal Assent. Thereafter we shall have no opportunity of considering any of the matters which may arise out of the passing of the Measure. It is not suitable for the Assistant Postmaster-General to mention the amount of Parliamentary time spent on the Bill as if it were in the ordinary run of Bills. This is a most unusual Bill. It is a revolutionary Bill.

I must again remind the House that we are discussing the question whether we should consider the Lords Amendments. We are not considering the Bill.

Yes, Sir. I was hoping to show in one moment that there is good cause for deferring consideration of the Lords Amendments until we hear the names of the members of the Independent Television Authority designate. I quite understand that the Authority cannot be appointed until the Bill becomes an Act, but I think that it would do much to enable us to consider the Lords Amendments in the light of the requirements of the situation as we see them if we were to defer consideration of the Lords Amendments until the names of the members of the Authority designate have been announced, and, indeed, until we

Division No. 207]

AYES

[4.30 p.m.

Aitken, W. T.Churchill, Rt. Hon. Sir WinstonFyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell
Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)Gammans, L. D.
Alport, C. J. M.Cole, NormanGarner-Evans, E. H.
Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)Colegate, W. A.George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd
Amory, Rt. Hon. Heathcoat (Tiverton)Conant, Maj. Sir RogerGlover, D.
Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J.Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. AlbertGomme-Duncan, Col. A.
Arbuthnot, JohnCooper-Key, E. M.Gough, C. F. H.
Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)Gower, H. R.
Aster, Hon. J. J.Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.Graham, Sir Fergus
Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)
Baldwin, A. E.Crouch, R. F.Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)
Banks, Col. C.Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)Halt, John (Wycombe)
Barber, AnthonyCrowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)Hare, Hon. J. H.
Barlow, Sir JohnDarling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)Harris, Reader (Heston)
Beach, Maj. HicksDavidson, ViscountessHarrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)
Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)Deedes, W. F.Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macolesfield)
Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)Dodds-Parker, A. D.Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)
Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.Hay, John
Bennett, William (Woodside)Donner, Sir P. W.Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel
Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)Doughty, C. J. A.Heath, Edward
Birch, NigelDouglas-Hamilton, Lord MalcolmHill, Dr. Charles (Luton)
Bishop, F. P.Drayson, G. B.Hinchingbrooke, Viscount
Black, C. W.Drewe, Sir C.Hirst, Geoffrey
Bossom, Sir A. C.Dugdale, Rt. Hon. Sir T. (Richmond)Holland-Martin, C. J
Boyle-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.Hollis, M. C.
Boyle, Sir EdwardDuthie, W. S.Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P
Braine, B. R.Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir D. M.Horobin, I. M.
Braithwaite, Sir GurneyEden, Rt. Hon. A.Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence
Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)
Browne, Jack (Govan)Erroll, F. J.Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)
Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T.Fell, A.Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'rgh, W.)
Bullard, D. G.Fisher, NigelHutchison, James (Scotstoun)
Bullus, Wing-Commander E. E.Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.Hyde, Lt.-Col H. M.
Butcher, Sir HerbertFletcher-Cooke, C.Hylton-Foster, H. B. H
Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden)Ford, Mrs. PatriciaIremonger, T. L.
Campbell, Sir DavidFort, R.Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)
Carr, RobertFoster, JohnJennings, Sir Roland
Cary, Sir RobertFraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)Johnson, Eric (Blackley)
Channon, H.Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambo & Lonsdale)Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

have heard a little more about how they will proceed to discharge their task.

The Government would not lose the Bill if consideration of the Lords Amendments were postponed until we return. We could then consider the Lords Amendments. It is not, perhaps, the Lords Amendments themselves that are of such great importance as the circumstances in which we are asked to consider them, for I am sure that we could more profitably consider other matters in the few hours of Parliamentary time that remain before we go into Recess. I hope that it will be possible for the Assistant Postmaster-General to defer to the wish of the Opposition in this matter. Let us postpone consideration of the Lords Amendments until we come back after the Recess, and meantime pass to other more important matters.

rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The House divided: Ayes, 256; Noes, 225.

Jones, A. (Hall Green)Nield, Basil (Chester)Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.)
Kaberry, D.Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.Spens, Rt. Hon. Sir P. (Kensington, S.)
Kerby, Capt. H. B.Nugent, G. R. H.Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard
Kerr, H. W.Odey, G. W.Stevens, Geoffrey
Lambert, Hon. G.O'Neill, Hon. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)
Lambton, ViscountOrmsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.
Lancaster, Col. C. G.Orr, Capt. L. P. S.Storey, S.
Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. HOrr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-super-Mare)Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)
Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)Osborne, C.Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)
Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. TPage, R. G.Studholme, H. G.
Lindsay, MartinPeake, Rt. Hon. O.Summers, G. S.
Linstead, Sir H. N.Perkins, Sir RobertSutcliffe, Sir Harold
Llewellyn, D. T.Peto, Brig. C. H. M.Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)
Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)Peyton, J. W. W.Teeling, W.
Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)Pickthorn, K. W. M.Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford)
Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.Pilkington, Capt. R. AThomas, Leslie (Canterbury)
Longden, Gilbert (Herts, S.W.)Pitman, I. J.Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)
Low, A. R. W.Pitt, Miss E. M.Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth)
Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)Powell, J. EnochThornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.
Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)Tilney, John
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon.O.Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.Touche, Sir Gordon
McAdden, S. J.Profumo, J. D.Turner, H. F. L
McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.Raikes, Sir VictorTurton, R. H.
Macdonald, Sir PeterRamsden, J. E.Vane, W. M. F.
McKibbin, A.J.Rayner, Brig. R.Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.
Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)Redmayne, M.Vosper, D. F.
Maclean, FitzroyRees-Davies, W. R.Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)
Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)Remnant, Hon. P.Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone)
Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)Renton, D. L. M.Walker-Smith, D. C.
Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)Ridsdale, J. E.Wall, Major Patrick
Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)Roberts, Peter (Heeley)Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)
Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir ReginaldRobinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)
Markham, Major Sir FrankRodgers, John (Sevenoaks)Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.
Marlowe, A. A. H.Roper, Sir HaroldWatkinson, H. A.
Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)Ropner, Col. Sir LeonardWebbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster)
Maude, AngusRussell, R. S.Well wood, W.
Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.Williams, Rt. Hon. Charles (Torquay)
Medicott, Brig. F.Savory, Prof. Sir DouglasWilliams, Gerald (Tonbridge)
Mellor, Sir JohnSchofield, Lt.-Col. W.Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)
Molson, A. H. E.Scott, R. DonaldWilliams, R. Dudley (Exeter)
Monckton, Rt. Hon. Sir WalterScott-Miller, Cmdr. R.Wills, G.
Moore, Sir ThomasSimon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W)Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Morrison, John (Salisbury)Smithers, Peter (Winchester)Wood, Hon. R.
Mabarro, G. D. N.Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington)
Neave, AireySmyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Nicholls, HarmarSneddon, W. McN.Mr. T. G. D. Galbraith and
Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)Soames, Capt. C.Mr. Oakshott.
Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)Speir, R. M.

NOES

Acland, Sir RichardClunie, J.Gibson, C. W.
Adams, RichardCorbet, Mrs. FredaGlanville, James
Albu, A. H.Cove, W. G.Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.
Aden, Arthur (Bosworth)Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)Greenwood, Anthony
Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven)Crosland, C. A. R.Grenfell, Rt. Hen. D. R.
Awbery, S. S.Crossman, R. H. SGrey, C. F.
Bacon, Miss AliceCullen, Mrs. A.Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)
Baird, J.Dairies, P.Griffiths, William (Exchange)
Balfour, A.Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.Hale, Leslie
Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.Darling, George (Hillsborough)Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)
Bartley, P.Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)
Bonn, Hon. WedgwoodDavies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)Hamilton, W. W.
Benson, G.Davies, Harold (Leek)Hannan, W.
Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)Hargreaves, A.
Blackburn, F.Deer, G.Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)
Blenkinsop, A.de Freitas, GeoffreyHastings, S.
Blyton, W. R.Delargy, H. J.Hayman, F. H.
Beardman, H.Dodds, N. N.Healey, Denis (Leeds, S. E.)
Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.Driberg, T. E. N.Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis)
Bowden, H. W.Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.Herbison, Miss M.
Bowles, F. G.Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)Hewitson, Capt. M.
Braddock, Mrs. ElizabethEdwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)Hobson. C. R.
Brockway, A. F.Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)Holman, P.
Brook, Dryden (Halifax)Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)Holmes, Horace
Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)Holt, A. F.
Brown, Thomas (Ince)Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)Houghton, Douglas
Burke, W. A.Fernyhough, E.Hoy, J. H.
Burton, Miss F. E.Fienburgh, W.Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)
Callaghan, L. J.Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Carmichael, J.Forman, J. C.Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)
Castle, Mrs. B. A.Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)Hynd, H. (Accrington)
Champion, A. J.Freeman, Peter (Newport)Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)
Chapman, W. D.Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. NIrving, W. J. (Wood Green)

Isaacs. Rt. Hon. G. AOrbach, M.Sorensen, R. W.
Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.Oswald, T.Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank
Jeger, George (Goole)Padley, W. E.Sparks, J. A.
Jeger, Mrs. LenaPaling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)Steele, T.
Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford)Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R.
Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)Palmer, A. M. FStrauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)
Jones, David (Hartlepool)Pannell, CharlesStross, Dr. Barnett
Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.)Pargiter, G. A.Summerskill Rt Hon. E.
Jones, Jack (Rotherham)Parker, J.Sylvester, G. O.
Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)Parkin, B. T.Thomas, George (Cardiff)
Keenan, W.Paton, J.Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)
Kenyon, C.Pearson, A.Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)
Key, RT. Hon. C. WPeart, T. F.Thornton, E.
King, Dr H. M.Plummer, Sir LeslieTimmons, J.
Lawson, G. M.Porter, G.Tomney, F.
Lee, Frederick (Newton)Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)Ungeed-Thomas, Sir Lynn
Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)Viant, S. P.
Lindgren, G. S.Proctor, W. T.Wade, D. W.
MacColl J. E.Pryde, D. J.Wallace, H. W.
McKay, John (Wallsend)Pursey, Cmdr. H.Worbey, W. N.
McLeavy, F.Rankin, JohnWatkins, T. E.
MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)Reeves, J.Weitzman, D.
Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)Reid, Thomas (Swindon)Wells, Percy (Faversham)
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)Reid, William (Camlachie)Wells, William (Walsall)
Mann, Mrs. JeanRichards, R.West, D. G.
Manuel, A. C.Roberts, Albert (Normanton)Wheeldon, W. E.
Mason, RoyRoberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)
Mayhew, C. P.Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)Whiteley, Rt. Hon, W.
Mellish, R. J.Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)Wigg, George
Messer, Sir F.Ross, WilliamWilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.
Mikardo, IanRoyle, C.Willey, F. T.
Mitchison, G. R.Shackleton. E. A. A.Williams, David (Neath)
Monslow, W.Shinwell Rt. Hon. E.Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)
Moody, A. S.Short, E. W.Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)
Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.Shurmer, P. L. E.Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)
Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)Silverman, Julius (Erdington)Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)
Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, S.)Simmons, G. J. (Brierley Hill)Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)
Mort, D. L.Skeffington, A. M.Woodburn, R. Hon. A.
Moyle, A.Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke-on-Trent)Yates, V. F.
Mulley, F. W.Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)Younger, Rt. Hon. K.
Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J.Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)
Oldfield, W. H.Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Oliver, G. H.Snow, J. W.Mr. Wilkins and Mr. John Taylor.

Question put accordingly "That 'now' stand part of the Question."

Division No. 208.]

AYES

[4.38 p.m.

Aitken, W. T.Butcher, Sir HerbertEden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)
Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden)Erroll, F. J.
Alport, C. J. M.Campbell, Sir DavidFell, A.
Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)Carr, RobertFisher, Nigel
Amory, Rt. Hon. Heathcoat (Tiverton)Cary, Sir RobertFleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.
Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J.Channon, HFletcher-Cooke, C.
Arbuthnot, JohnChurchill, Rt. Hon. Sir WinstonFord, Mrs. Patricia
Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.)Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Crinstead)Fort, R.
Astor, Hon. J. J.Cole, NormanFoster, John
Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.Colegate, W. A.Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)
Baldwin, A. E.Conant, Maj. Sir RogerFraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)
Banks, Col. C.Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. AlbertFyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell
Barber, AnthonyCooper-Key, E. M.Gammans, L. D.
Barlow, Sir JohnCraddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)Garner-Evans, E. H.
Baxter, Sir BeverleyCrookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd
Beach, Maj. HicksCrosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.Glover, D.
Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)Crouch, R. F.Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.
Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)Gough, C. F. H.
Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)Gower, H. R.
Bennett, William (Woodside)Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)Graham, Sir Fergus
Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)Davidson, ViscountessGrimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)
Birch, NigelDeedes, W. F.Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)
Bishop, F. P.Dodds-Parker, A. D.Hall, John (Wycombe)
Black, C. W.Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.Hare, Hon. J. H.
Bossom, Sir A. C.Donner, Sir P. W.Harris, Reader (Hasten)
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.Doughty, C. J. A.Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)
Boyle, Sir EdwardDouglas-Hamilton, Lord MalcolmHarvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield)
Braine, B. R.Drayson, G. B.Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)
Braithwaite, Sir GurneyDrewe, Sir C.Hay, John
Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)Dugdale, Rt. Hon. Sir T. (Richmond)Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel
Browne, Jack (Gevan)Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.Heath, Edward
Buchan.-Hepburn, Rt Hon. P. G. TDuthie, W. SHiggs, J. M. C.
Bullard, D. G.Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir D. MHill, Dr. Charles (Luton)
Bullus, Wing Commander E. EEden, Rt. Hon. A.Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

The House divided: Ayes, 260; Noes 225.

Hirst, GeoffreyMaydon, Lt.-Comdr, S. L. C.Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W)
Holland-Martin, C. JMedlicott, Brig. F.Smithers, Peter (Winchester)
Hollis, M. C.Mellor, Sir JohnSmithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington)
Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. PMolson, A. H. E.Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood)
Horobin, I. M-Monckton, Rt. Hon. Sir WaterSnadden, W. McN.
Horsbrugh, Bt. Hon. FlorenceMoore, Sir ThomasSoames, Capt. C.
Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)Morrison, John (Salisbury)Speir, R. M.
Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)Nabarro, G. D. N.Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.)
Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'rgh, W.)Neave, AireySpens, Rt. Hon. Sir P. (Kensington, S.)
Hutchison, James (Scotstoun)Nicholls, HarmarStanley, Capt. Hon. Richard
Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M.Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)Stevens, Geoffrey
Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)
Iremonger, T. L.Nield, Basil (Chester)Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.
Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)Noble, Comdr. A. H. PStorey, S.
Jennings, Sir RolandNugent, G. R. H.Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)
Johnson, Eric (Blackley)Oakshott, H. D.Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)
Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)Odey, G. W.Studholme, H. G.
Jones, A. (Hall Green)O'Neill, Hon. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)Summers, G. S.
Kaberry, D.Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. H.Sutcliffe, Sir Harold
Kerby, Capt. H. BOrr, Capt. L. P. S.Taylor, William (Bradford. N.)
Kerr, H. W.Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-super-Mare)Teeling, W.
Lambert, Hon. G.Osborne, C.Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford)
Lambton, ViscountPage, R. G.Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)
Lancaster, Col. C. GPeake, Rt. Hon. O.Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)
Leather, E. H. C.Perkins, Sir RobertThorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth)
Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. HPeto, Brig. C. H. MThornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.
Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon A. TPeyton, J. W. W.Tilney, John
Lindsay, MartinPickthorn, K. W. M.Touche, Sir Gordon
Linstead, Sir H. N.Pilkington, Capt. R. ATurner, H. F. L.
Llewellyn, D. T.Pitman, I. J.Turton, R. H.
Lloyd, Maj- Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)Pitt, Miss E. M.Vane, W. M. F.
Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)Powell, J. EnochVaughan-Morgan, J. K
Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. CPrice, Henry (Lewisham, W)Vosper, D. F.
Longden, GilbertPrior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)
Low, A. R. W.Profumo, J. D.Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone)
Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)Raikes, Sir VictorWalker-Smith, D. C.
Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)Ramsden, J. E.Wall, Major Patrick
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.Rayner, Brig. RWard, Hon. George (Worcester)
McAdden, S. J.Redmayne, M.Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)
McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. SRees-Davies, W. RWaterhouse, Capt, Rt. Hon. C
Macdonald, Sir PeterRemnant, Hon. P.Watkinston, H. A.
McKibbin, A. J.Renton, D. L. M.Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster)
Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)Ridsdale, J. E.Wellwood, W.
Maclean, FitzroyRoberts, Peter (Heeley)Williams, Rt. Hon. Charles (Torquay)
Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)
Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)
Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)Roper, Sir HaroldWilliams, R. Dudley (Exeter)
Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)Ropner, Col. Sir LeonardWills, G.
Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir ReginaldRussell, R. S.Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Markham, Major Sir FrankRyder, Capt. R. E. D.Wood, Hon. R.
Marlowe, A. A. H.Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas
Marples, A. E.Schofield, Lt.-Col. W.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)Scott, R. DonaldMr. T. G. D. Galbraith and
Maude, AngusScott-Miller, Cmdr. R.Mr. Legh

NOES

Acland, Sir RichardCallaghan, L JEvans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)
Adams, RichardCarmichael, JEvans, Edward (Lowestoft)
Albu, A. H.Castle, Mrs. B AEvans, Stanley (Wednesbury)
Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)Champion, A. JFernyhough, E.
Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven)Chapman, W. DFienburgh, W.
Awbery, S. S.Clunie, JFletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)
Bacon, Miss AliceCorbet, Mrs. FredaForman, J. C.
Baird, J.Cove, W. G.Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)
Balfour, A.Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)Freeman, Peter (Newport)
Barnes, Rt. Hon. A JCrosland, C. A. R.Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N
Bartley, P.Crossman, R. H. S.Gibson, C. W.
Benn, Hon. WedgwoodCullen, Mrs. A.Glanville, James
Benson, G.Daines, P.Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C
Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.Greenwood, Anthony
Blackburn, FDarling, George (Hillsborough)Grenfell, Rt Hon. D. R
Blenkinsop, ADavies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)Grey, C. F.
Blyton, W. R.Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)
Boardman, HDavies, Harold (Leek)Griffiths, William (Exchange)
Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A GDavies, Stephen (Merthyr)Hale, Leslie
Bowden, H. W.de Freitas, GeoffreyHall, Rt. Hon, Glenvil (Colne Valley)
Bowles, F. GDeer, G.Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)
Braddock, Mrs. ElizabethDelargy, H. J.Hamilton, W. W.
Brockway, A. F.Dodds, N. N.Hannan, W.
Brook, Dryden (Halifax)Driberg, T. E. N.Hargreaves, A.
Broughton, Dr A. D. D.Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)
Brown, Thomas (Ince)Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)Hastings, S.
Burke, W. A.Edwards, Rt Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)Hayman, F. H.
Burton, Miss F. E.Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.)

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis)Moody, A. S.Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke-on-Trent)
Herbison, Miss M.Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)
Hewitson, Capt. M.Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)
Hobson, C. R.Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, S.)Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)
Holman, P.Mort, D. L.Snow, J. W.
Holmes, HoraceMoyle, A.Sorensen, R. W.
Holt, A. F.Mulley, F. W.Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank
Houghton, DouglasNoel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. JSparks, J. A.
Hoy, J. H.Oldfield, W. H.Steele, T.
Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)Oliver, G. H.Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R.
Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)Orbach, M.Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)
Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)Oswald, T.Stross, Dr. Barnett
Hynd, H. (Accrington)Padley, W. E.Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E
Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)Sylvester, G. O.
Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)Thomas, George (Cardiff)
Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.Palmer, A. M. F.Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)
Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.Pannell, CharlesThomson, George (Dundee, E.)
Jeger, George (Goole)Pargiter, G. A.Thornton, E.
Jeger, Mrs. LenaParker, J.Timmons, J.
Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford)Parkin, B. TTomney, F.
Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)Paton, J.Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn
Jones, David (Hartlepool)Pearson, A.Viant, S. P.
Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.)Peart, T. F.Wade, D. W.
Jones, Jack (Rotherham)Plummer, Sir LeslieWallace, H. W.
Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)Porter, G.Warbey, W. N.
Keenan, W.Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)Watkins, T. E.
Kenyon, C.Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)Weitzman, D.
Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.Proctor, W. T.Wells, Percy (Faversham)
King, Dr. H. M.Pryde, D. J.Wells, William (Walsall)
Lawson, G. M.Pursey, Cmdr. HWest, D. G.
Lee, Frederick (Newton)Rankin, JohnWheeldon, W. E.
Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)Reeves, J.White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)
Lindgren, G. S.Reid, Thomas (Swindon)Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.
MacColl, J. E.Reid, William (Camlachie)Wigg, George
McKay, John (Wallsend)Richards, R.Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B
McLeavy, F.Roberts, Albert (Normanton)Willey, F. T.
MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)Williams, David (Neath)
Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)
Mann, Mrs. JeanRoss, WilliamWilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)
Manuel, A. C.Royle, C.Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)
Mason, RoyShackleton, E. A. A.Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)
Mayhew, C. P.Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.
Mellish, R. J.Short, E. W.Yates, V. F.
Messer, Sir F.Shurmer, P. L. E.Younger, Rt. Hon. K.
Mikardo, IanSilverman, Julius (Erdington)
Mitchison, G. R.Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Monslow, W.Skeffington, A M.Mr. Wilkins and Mr. John Taylor

Main Question put, and agreed to.

Lords Amendments considered accordingly