asked the Minister of Food if he can yet make a statement in respect of the banning of agene in flour for human consumption.

Not yet, Sir.

Does not the hon. Gentleman appreciate that an undertaking was given by a Government spokesman on 2nd December, 1953, that a statement was likely to be made within two or three months, and is he not aware that for some considerable period a baker in the West Country has been selling large quantities of bread free from agene and chemicals? What is the Ministry doing about that?

I am aware of the need for an early decision. As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are in the hands of an expert committee which is seeking an absolutely safe alternative. My right hon. and gallant Friend will make an announcement as soon as that expert advice is ready.

Why does not the Minister's Department encourage the millers to give people decent bread instead of the poison which they now supply?

Because he prefers an expert examination of the facts before making loose assertions.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that in the new process, which has been going on as a commercial proposition, no chemicals at all are used? Is it not a good bread in itself, and why does not the Ministry do something about it? If it is not a good bread, why does not the Ministry warn people about it?

I am aware of the aeration process to which the hon. Gentleman refers. It is one of the methods being studied, but, until the study is complete, it cannot be authoritatively stated what the new method will be.

asked the Minister of Food if he will withdraw the guaranteed prices for bacon pigs until a free market is restored between the farmer and the bacon curers.

No, Sir. The guaranteed prices are paid to implement an undertaking to producers. The method of sale does not affect their purpose or necessity.

May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether he and his right hon. and gallant Friend are really very happy about the present arrangements which have been in force since 1st July? Will he say to what extent there is a monopoly as a result of the agreement between the Fat Stock Marketing Corporation and the bacon curers, and how many bacon curers are now outside that agreement?

My right hon. Friend's responsibility is to implement the guarantee, whether to the individual producer or to producers formed together in a voluntary organisation like the Fat Stock Marketing Corporation. The issue which the hon. Gentleman has in mind is not the concern of my right hon. Friend, and it might appropriately be put to my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that, in the matter of the production of bacon pigs, in which quality and uniformity are all important, it is very desirable that these pigs should be sold through a marketing organisation rather than by the method of auction sales?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Minister of Food what arrangements are being made to allow imports of Canadian apples during the forthcoming season to meet the consumers' needs after the home-grown crop has been disposed of; to what extent this trade may be resumed; and what consultations he has had with Canadian interests to ensure that the domestic market may depend upon an adequate and varied supply of fresh fruit from North America.

I would refer the hon. and learned Member to the reply I gave on 26th July to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Roxburgh and Selkirk (Commander Donaldson).

Cannot the Minister be a little more explicit, and cannot he give the housewives a little more variety in the matter of food supplies?

I suggest that the hon. and learned Gentleman reads the answer to which I referred, which makes this, as it essentially is, a question of dollars.

asked the Minister of Food if he is aware that eggs have increased in price from 2s. 6d. to 4s. 9d. per dozen; what evidence he has to indicate the future price trends; and what his policy is in regard to egg production and price.

The price of eggs always rises at this time of the year, and no doubt this annual pattern will continue. But the price is appreciably lower than a year ago and lower than under control and subsidy the year before.

Can the hon. Gentleman explain why his right hon. and gallant Friend made a statement in the House a week ago saying that eggs had fallen in price when, in point of fact, they have nearly doubled in price from 2s. 6d. to 4s. 9d.? Is the latter part of my Question too difficult for the hon. Gentleman to answer?

The price always rises between the flush period and midsummer. The point of comparison is between that time this year and the same time last year, and the comparison shows a reduction in price.

On the more general question, will the Ministry make it clear to the public that controls are the cause of shortages, that the restriction of consumption restricts production, and that it must take time for the application of sound principles to show results after the inefficiency and incompetence of the Socialist regime?

asked the Minister of Food if he will make a statement on the operation of his Department's fatstock grade and deadweight scheme during the first three weeks of meat decontrol; if he is satisfied that generally the supply of home-killed meat and the demand are settling on a basis that is fair to producers and consumers; and if he can give a current estimate of the subsidy payments on account of the collective guaranteed payments and the guaranteed individual prices.

There are now official graders at 166 centres and some 160 wholesalers are registered under the scheme. The answer to the second part of the Question within the limits of experience to date is, "Yes, Sir." As regards the third part, I would refer my hon. Friend to the Departmental Estimates which included £34·7 million for the nine months ending next March.

Will my hon. Friend tell us whether an increasing number of farmers are making use of the Ministry's grading and deadweight scheme as an alternative to the auctions or the Fat Stock Marketing Corporation?

It is a little early, after only three weeks, to measure trends of that kind.

asked the Minister of Food if he is aware that Belfast bacon has been increased to 6s. per lb., and cooked gammon from 7s. 4d. to 9s. per lb., while alternatives to these, such as sausages, meat and fish, are correspondingly increased; and if he will reimpose controls.

I am not so informed. The average price of bacon is about the same as before decontrol, and from this weekend there will be bacon in some districts at much lower prices. The reply to the last part of the Question is: No, Sir.

I am not at all surprised that the hon. Gentleman is not informed. As a matter of fact, is he aware that when he asks housewives to take action by avoiding high prices the alternatives to which they have to resort are also all correspondingly increased?

But the statements in the hon. Lady's Question are inaccurate. For example, she refers to cooked gammon, where the range of price is between 7s. 4d. and 8s. per lb. as compared with between 11s. and 12s. under the Administration of the party opposite. Secondly, the Index of Retail Food Prices shows that the figure for June is no higher than it was a year ago.

In view of the high cost of living, will the hon. Gentleman admit that the time has come when the British people should be sold Danish bacon at the price which the Government pays for it, and not be exploited by the Government to the tune of £30 million a year as they are at the present time?

If the hon. Gentleman would put down a Question on Danish bacon I shall be glad to answer it.

Is it not a fact that, unfortunately, some people are grossly exaggerating increases in the cost of living?

Some people are denying, for political purposes, the validity of the figures which they themselves used.

asked the Minister of Food the price of butter in June, 1951, and June, 1954.

2s. 6d.; and from 3s. 8d. to 4s. 2d. per lb.

We have just had a reply that butter was 2s. 6d. a lb. in 1951, and that it is now costing from 3s. 8d. to 4s. 2d. a lb. Surely that gives the lie to all that hon. Members opposite have been saying about there being no increases. Are we to take it that when butter goes from 2s. 6d. a lb. to 4s. 2d. it is a reduction?

But that is an element in the cost-of-living index.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) what rents will be charged by the Hong Kong Housing Society for the flats they are proposing to build on the site of the Healthy Village; what are the qualifications necessary for renting these flats; and what compensation will be paid to the present inhabitants of the Healthy Village who have to demolish their houses;

I am consulting the Acting Governor, and will write to the hon. Member when I have his reply.

In the meantime, would not the Minister do something to try to get another site secured for the Hong Kong Housing Society? Would he not agree that it is a bad thing to interfere with this excellent little community?

I can only refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given on a previous occasion which, I think, made the position perfectly clear.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why the Director of Extra-Mural Studies for the University College of East Africa has not been appointed; and what the University College authorities are doing with the money.

As my right hon. Friend informed the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. J. Johnson) in reply to a Question on 23rd June, the University College of East Africa at Makerere is an autonomous body. This is therefore a matter for the college authorities.

I quite appreciate that fact, but surely the Minister can do something in this matter, because he is aware, I think, that this post was advertised over a year ago. As this extra-mural work is proceeding quite satisfactorily at Entebbe, is there any reason why it should not proceed now in Kenya and Tanganyika?

I think that my right hon. Friend in his reply to the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. J. Johnson) on 23rd June, made quite clear what his interest was in this matter of extra-mural work. He made his interest perfectly clear, but it would not be proper for him to intervene in a matter of this sort.

Would the Minister agree that one of our big difficulties in colonial society is a lack of what we may call cultural activity, particularly in East Africa of all places? Would he therefore do his best to indicate to the university in the territory that it ought to begin, and should begin as early as possible, some extra-mural classes in Nairobi?

With respect, I think that the answers given on this subject will help in that direction.

Will the Minister make it clear that this extra-mural work has his complete support, and say so to both the Governments concerned?

indicated assent.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will hold an inquiry into the methods of working of the Mokwa agricultural scheme in Nigeria, and the factors which led to its failure.

This scheme has been taken over by the Government of the Northern Region of Nigeria on 1st June for further experimental work. My right hon. Friend sees no grounds for an inquiry at this stage.

Can the Minister confirm or deny that much of the difficulty in the past has been caused by the attitude of the local Emir who almost seems to wish to discourage these settlers coming into this scheme? Would he endeavour to convey to the Northern Territory Government that this sort of thing has not been helpful in the past and will not be helpful in the future?

I have not the information to confirm what the hon. Gentleman says, but certainly the scheme has been taken over by the Northern Regional Government. They have asked for a C.D. and W. grant to help to carry it out, and it is certainly their intention to make a success of it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how he proposes to review the Malayan Federation agreement in view of his refusal of a Commission to consider it from outside Malaya but inside the British Commonwealth; and if he will ask the Sultans to suggest how their powers should be reduced in the interest of democratic government.

My right hon. Friend has not refused such a commission. The first part of the Question therefore does not arise. The answer to the second part of the Question is "No." I would, however, refer the hon. Member to my right hon. Friend's reply to the hon. Member for Bristol, Central (Mr. Awbery) on 21st July.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his answer. Can he say whether in the near future some approach will be made to the Sultans to see whether or not they, as a body, would be prepared to limit some of their powers so as to get more democratic representation inside Malaya?

I do not think that question arises at all. We are concerned with the working of the new constitution, and the Commission which it is suggested should sit would be going into that particular aspect of the matter.

Is the Minister aware that any extension of political power in Malaya will mean taking powers from Sultans? Does he think that the Sultans will agree to that? Would it not be wiser if he consulted some body such as a committee composed of those representing the Commonwealth rather than the Sultans in regard to this?

The position is that the Sultans have said that at their next meeting with the High Commissioner they will give further thought to the matter, but at this stage I do not think I can say any more as to the precise way in which an inquiry can be carried out.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that only a small number of Malayan graduates accept teaching posts; what is the reason for this; to what extent teaching appointments are reserved for non-Malayan teachers; and what steps he proposes to take to induce more Malayan graduates to take up such posts in Singapore and the Federation.

Malayan graduates are still comparatively few, and most of them prefer to enter the Civil Service rather than become teachers. No teachers' appointments are reserved for non-Malayans. No special steps are thought necessary to attract Malayan graduates to the teaching profession since the position is expected to right itself naturally as their numbers increase.

Is the Minister quite satisfied that the salaries and other conditions for Malayan graduates are on an absolute equality with other people?

While there is no doubt that the remuneration prospects for teachers both in Singapore and in Malaya are very good indeed, we have no reason to think that the pay is in any sense a deterrent to their job.

Is the Minister aware that since the establishment of the university at Singapore five years ago only 14 graduates have taken up appointments as teachers? Would he examine the position and find out why it is that such a small number of graduates are going into the teaching profession in Singapore and in Malaya?

I gave the answer in reply to the Question, but I would point out that of some 435 graduates from the university of Malaya, no less than 42 in the past five years have obtained Diplomas of Education and are believed to have joined either Government or aided schools in the Federation or Singapore.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what decision has been reached by the Advisory Committee on Detainees in the case of Mr. Pinto.

Mr. Pinto's appeal was due to be heard on 26th July. The Advisory Committee's decision is not yet available.

Will the Minister give this matter very careful consideration indeed? Is he aware that Mr. Pinto, while he has expressed the grievances of Africans, has taken a leading part in denouncing the violence and activities of Mau Mau, and will the Minister consider this issue very carefully?

I think I should be very unwise to comment on this matter pending the decision of the committee of inquiry.

If I will send the right hon. Gentleman information on the lines of my supplementary question will he forward it to the Governor?

I am always glad to receive information from the hon. Member, but, as I have said, it would be very unwise if I were to comment to the extent that he has done on this particular matter.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies to what organisations he has supplied copies, for the information of their members, of the unpublished appendix to the recent Report by the Parliamentary Delegation to Kenya.

Copies have been sent to a number of organisations and societies whose names I will, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT. They have also been placed in many libraries where they are available to responsible persons on application.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of the political parties, and it is not the Labour Party, is widely distributing this document among its members? Is he also aware that the "Voice of Kenya" is supplying it to any person who applies for it, and that this document, which is supposed to be kept in our Library, is being widely distributed?

This document has, with the approval of the Government—

Where are the members of the Government?

—been sent to a number of societies, and we believe that it should be given maximum publicity consistent with public decency and so on.

On a point of order. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the Government. Where are the Government? There are only two Whips and a junior Minister on the Government Front Bench. Surely the Government should be here?

That is not a point of order.

I want to ask your guidance, Mr. Speaker, on this matter. A Parliamentary Delegation went to Kenya and presented a Report to this House. It had an appendix which is a private document and is restricted to the Library of this House. I have evidence that the Colonial Office sent this document to certain political parties for the information of their members and it is being widely distributed. I would ask for your ruling as to whether a document of this private character should be used in that way.

Further to that point of order. Is the House not aware that that particular document is not a secret document but was, in fact, produced by the information office of the Kenya Government and was distributed long before it was included in the proposed appendix to the Report?

That is not a point of order.

May I ask the Minister whether this is not a breach of the undertaking given to the House? When the Parliamentary Delegation was compiling its Report it included this appendix as part of the Report. We were then informed by the Secretary of State that the Government had decided, for reasons which I can understand, that this part of the Report should not be published but that a copy should be available in the Library. Are we to understand now that, without any notification or without consulting anyone, that decision has been changed and copies have been given to certain individuals and private organisations? Is not that a breach of the undertaking given to the House?

I do not think any undertaking was given to the House at all. The Secretary of State merely announced that he did not propose to publish this document as part of the White Paper, and the reason for that was that the White Paper was available for purchase at railway stations and other places where young people of all sexes could have seen it and it was thought undesirable that they should read some of those facts.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether, when those copies were supplied to these organisations, it was intimated to them that it was the view of the Government after due consideration that it should not be published, and has the Minister secured an undertaking from these organisations that they would not publish it?

It was not the decision of the Government that it should not be published. It was their decision that it should not fall into improper hands or be delivered to undesirable quarters. We were concerned solely with the interests of the young people.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one copy of this document was sent to the Labour Party and has been placed in the Library of Transport House? In the case of other political parties, the document has been sent for the information of their members, and is being distributed by those parties to their members.

Is the Minister aware that the details contained in that report were actually included in an article written by Sir Philip Mitchell and published in the "Manchester Guardian" about eight weeks ago.

That has nothing to do with it.

Is not the explanation of the apparent discrimination clearly that there are no young people in the Conservative Party and, therefore, it would not fall into wrong hands or the hands of juveniles if circulated by that party to their members.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many persons are now detained without trial in Kenya; and in what places and conditions they are detained.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many Africans are held in concentration camps, or villages behind barbed wire, in Kenya; and how many of them are used as labour for public and private employers.

About 40,000 persons are at present detained under Emergency Regulations. Of these, 10,000 are in Works Camps in the Central Province, Rift Valley and Narok, 7,000 are in detention camps at Mackinnon Road, Athi River and Manda Island, and 23,000 are in Anvil reception centres at Mackinnon Road, Manyani and Langata.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his very full reply, but I am shocked to learn that so many people are under detention. Will he be good enough to look into the third part of my Question—which concerns the conditions under which so many people are detained, and which I have learned are very unsatisfactory?

Our information regarding these conditions does not tally with that of the hon. Member. As a matter of fact, as my right hon. Friend said in his speech in the Kenya debate last week, a great deal of money has been spent on these camps and great care has been taken to ensure that they are well run. We have a good testimonial from the Church Missionary Society in regard to these conditions.

Can the Minister say how many of those 40,000 people have been detained without trial for a long period, or is he not aware that it is very disturbing and certainly not in harmony with what he called British ideas in the last Question?

There is another Question which is down to be asked on that point, and which I shall answer if it is reached. Briefly, the position is that these persons are held either under detention orders, in which case they have the right of appeal to an advisory committee which is, in effect, a trial—

It is not a trial.

At any rate, they have access to an appeal committee or, alternatively, they are in process of being screened and will subsequently either be released or detained.

Will the right hon. Gentleman state how long it is intended to keep these men in detention before bringing them to trial? Have the Government set any time limit in this question?

The work of screening is going forward extremely quickly, as the House was informed during the debate on Kenya.

Does not the Minister remember that not many weeks ago I was told—I think by him—that the whole screening process would be through in about four months? I did not believe it; I told him that at the rate it was going when I was there it would take about nine years. What does he really mean now? It is no use saying that the process is going on; we know it is. How quickly is it proceeding?

It is going on faster than was expected, and a great deal faster than the right hon. Gentleman suggested.

Will it be finished in three months? A few weeks ago the Minister told us that it would be completed in four months. He now says that it is going to be finished quicker than he expected. Are we to understand, therefore, that the screening is to be finished in three months? Surely I am entitled to an answer to that question?

If the right hon. Gentleman cares to put down a Question on that point—[HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] This Question deals with the conditions in the camps, which is quite a different question from that raised by the right hon. Gentleman. If he cares to put down a Question on the subject, I shall be prepared to answer it.

Owing to the unsatisfactory answers which have been given, I beg to give notice that I shall take the earliest opportunity of raising the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what form of legal aid is given in Kenya to parties charged with serious offences which carry a penalty less than the death penalty.

There is no established practice in this matter, which is dealt with administratively, but in difficult or complex cases the trial judge may require counsel to be assigned to the accused.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that this should be put upon a satisfactory basis, so that these indigenous people can have representation, which at least gives them justice?

We must remember that a large number of persons are involved. When I said that it is dealt with administratively, I meant that it is done with the help of district officers or district commissioners, who in many cases are men whom the accused persons know and trust and who are able to help them.

Am I to understand from the Minister's reply that the Charter of Human Rights does not apply to these people? Are we to understand that coloured people can be treated in any fashion? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Did hon. Members listen to the Minister's reply?

It the hon. Member will read my original reply, together with the supplementary. I think that he will see that that is not so.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many Europeans, Asians, Africans and persons of other races, respectively, have died in Kenya while under arrest in Her Majesty's prisons or in places of detention during the last two years.

In the period 1952, 1953 and the first half of 1954: 402 Africans; no Europeans or Asians.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that conditions under which so many people die ought to be improved? Will he kindly give further attention to this matter?

I do not think there is any reason to believe that the number of deaths is in any way out of proportion to the number of persons detained.

Can the Minister state the principal cause of death? Can he say whether a great many died from tuberculosis contracted while they were under arrest?

We have asked the Governor by telegram to let us have that information. Certainly a number of cases are due to tuberculosis and malaria.

Will the right hon. Gentleman pursue this investigation quickly, as there is evidence that the incidence of tuberculosis is growing? Will he look at that matter in relation to the conditions existing in these camps?

We are watching the position very carefully, and we shall continue to do so.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will ask the Kenya Government to increase the rate of Income Tax to the level of the United Kingdom, in view of the recent further grant of £4 million from this country.