asked the Minister of Aviation what is the present monthly cost of the Blue Streak programme of development.

About £350,000 a month.

But would not the Minister of Aviation agree that this is no reduction on the monthly total over the long period, and that even this figure probably does not take into account all the costs which might fairly be included in this programme?

It is not meant to show a reduction. The idea is to get some useful work done. This work has been going on so that if a general European scheme comes forward it will be in a good position to go forward.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will now set a date for the abandonment, if favourable replies have not been received by then to his request for co-operation from allied countries, of the Blue Streak development programme.

No, Sir.

Would not the Minister agree that, while it may be desirable to achieve this co-operation if it is possible, it is time that he told the German and other allied Governments concerned that we cannot go on indefinitely with this large monthly and annual expenditure without arriving at some conclusion, and that a date ought to be set when these negotiations must be brought to an end one way or another?

I fully appreciate the right hon. Gentleman's point about trying to reach a conclusion, but as I am expecting the decision of the Federal German Government following upon their technical evaluation of the project very soon now, I should prefer to await it before taking any further decision.

asked the Minister of Aviation what reply he has received from the West German Government to his proposal that West Germany should co-operate in the development of Blue Streak as a satellite launcher.

No reply has yet been received.

Has the Minister told the German and other European countries that if they do not co-operate with us we are quite able and willing to do this project by ourselves and shall continue to produce it and that if they do not join in they will be missing a very great opportunity? Will he not be put off by my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey), for whom I have the very greatest admiration, but whose rather gloomy approach today befits neither him nor the position in which he is sitting today?

Oh.

We all have a great admiration for the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey), but I can assure him that I am by no means put off by him.

Will the Minister realise that most of us, at any rate, on these benches do think that this is one thing or the other—either we get European co-operation in this venture, or it is one which should not be pursued?

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will make a statement on the progress which has been made in the development of the TSR2 aircraft.

No, Sir. I have nothing to add to what has already been said on this subject, and I doubt whether periodic statements on projects of this kind serve any useful purpose.

Surely, the right hon. Gentleman realises that since we first heard of this aircraft in December, 1958, a great deal has been said about this machine, which has pursued a very ragged course, since the development order was submitted last October? Can he tell us when we may expect to see the prototype? Secondly, can he say how much the aircraft will cost now as compared with the estimated cost when it was first projected?

No, Sir.

Why not?

The Russians do not inform us about the progress of their tactical bombers, and I do not see why we should announce ours.

On the second point raised by my hon. Friend, could not the Minister inform the House what was the estimated cost three years ago, and to what extent it has varied recently?

No. The Question does not refer to the cost. If the hon. Gentleman likes to put a Question down about the finances he can do so, but I do not give any guarantee as to the kind of answer he will receive.

Would not the Minister agree that the Russians do not enjoy a Parliamentary form of Government, and that there is something to be said for the British Parliament being kept informed about this very costly development, which it is very difficult to bring under Parliamentary control?

I accept that there is some distinction to be drawn between the two systems, but at the same time I ask the House to ponder well before pressing for information about the exact progress made with regard to important weapons. This, I think, is wrong.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this Question was originally put down to his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Air and transferred to the right hon. Gentleman because it was assumed that he had all the knowledge about the costs and progress of the aircraft? Can he tell us how the original estimated cost compares with the figure which is now expected for the completion of this aircraft?

No. This Question asks about progress which is being made upon it. As I said, I do not wish to make a statement on it.

asked the Minister of Aviation what general directions he has given to the British Overseas Airways Corporation and the British European Airways Corporation with regard to membership by their employees of appropriate trade unions.

None, Sir.

In view of the fact that damages were rewarded to an employee of B.O.A.C. who was recently sacked with the co-operation of the trade unions and the Board of B.O.A.C., could I ask for an assurance that in future there will be at B.O.A.C. a strong Board which will not allow itself to be involved in political controversies? Is my hon. Friend aware that I do not think the Board of B.O.A.C. had any guts?

These are, of course, matters for the day-to-day management of the Board.

Rubbish.

I am aware of the circumstances of the case to which my hon. Friend refers, but that would not justify my right hon. Friend in issuing any general directions.

Is my hon. Friend not interested in freedoms? Is it not a fact that the Conservative Party is attached to individual and collective freedoms?

I shall be very happy to discuss freedoms with my hon. Friend at any time she likes with particular reference to this case.

Would the hon. Gentleman not agree that a very important freedom is freedom of association in trade unions, which is involved in this?

asked the Minister of Aviation which airfields will be made available both in the London area and elsewhere for use by executive and business aircraft.

The Air Pilot lists 159 aerodromes, including 11 within a radius of 25 miles of London, as available for use by business and executive aircraft. The possible use of other aerodromes is being discussed with representatives of business and private fliers.

Can my hon. Friend say how soon he expects to be able to come to a decision on sites such as Croydon and other airfields close to the centre of London?

The decision about Croydon is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Local Government.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he has yet appointed an architect for the terminal buildings at Abbotsinch.

Yes, Sir. I am glad to say that Basil Spence and Partners have accepted the appointment.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that answer, but could he tell us just a little about the architects who have been appointed? Would he arrange for the architects to meet the people in authority at Renfrew before their minds have been conditioned by his Department?

The House will be aware that the head of the firm is Sir Basil Spence, and he is personally taking a principal part in the design of the buildings. They will be starting work at once. I am sure they will bear in mind all relevant considerations.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will make a statement with regard to the deputy chairmanship of the Air Transport Licensing Board.

Yes, Sir. Mr. A. H. Wilson, C.B., C.B.E., who only agreed to act temporarily as Deputy Chairman, will relinquish this position at the end of July but remain a member of the Board. I have appointed Mr. J. J. Taylor, O.B.E., as Deputy Chairman from 1st August, when he retires from his present employment. Meanwhile, Mr. Taylor will join the Board as a part-time member. His salary as Deputy Chairman will be £3,500 a year.

asked the Minister of Health if his attention has been drawn to the Ninth Report of the United Nations World Health Organisation Expert Committee on Mental Health, which deals with the under graduate teaching of psychiatry; and what steps he proposes to take to bring its conclusions to the notice of those responsible for the medical curriculum.

I have no responsibility in this field.

Well, whether the Minister has direct responsibility or not, would he not appreciate that some action along the very modest lines which this Report recommends is an essential prerequisite to getting the psychiatric manpower which he will need in order to man the mental health services of this country, and could he not do something, at any rate in an informal way, in bringing this Report to the attention of those responsible for medical education?

I recognise the importance of strengthening in the National Health Service the element of psychiatric treatment and the psychiatric professional element, but that does not entitle me as Minister of Health to express an opinion—and I am sure that this is a right principle—upon the medical curriculum.

asked the Minister of Health how many executive councils have protested to him about the increase in prescription charges.

Forty-eight.

In view of the fact that the Minister now admits that he has had representations from 48 executive councils protesting against the increase in prescription charges, is he not prepared to reconsider his decision to impose these charges, particularly in view of the fact that these people represent persons who have no particular political axe to grind, and have called attention to the hardship and disservice which his measures are doing to the welfare and health of patients?

No. This has been fully considered by the House, which has taken its decision. The executive councils know that I am ready to receive any evidence which they wish to put before me of ways in which the present arrangements are not working satisfactorily.

As the Minister has received representations from 48 different executive councils, is it unreasonable to ask him how many he has to have before he really reconsiders the whole scheme?

They contain no evidence.

asked the Minister of Health if he has studied the protest made by the Glamorgan Executive Council of the National Health Service against the increased prescription charges; and, in view of the matters contained therein, if he will reconsider his policy in this respect.

The answer to the first part of the hon. Member's Question is "Yes", and to the second, "No".

How does the Minister expect to get evidence when it largely lies in the absence of old people visiting their doctors or taking up prescriptions? Does he realise that he is condemning himself as a Minister without compassion or mercy by his attitude on these matters?

I am sure that there could not be any appreciable or widespread hardship without its coming to the notice of the doctors or the executive councils.

Is it not the case, as the Minister admitted, in answering Question No. 12, that he has knowledge of 48 executive councils who have protested, and who are entitled to say this to the Minister? What other evidence does he need, what better opinion can he get, than that of expert people engaged in administering this Service on his behalf and that of the patients?

I can only say that these bodies are well aware of my repeated undertaking to consider evidence of hardship and difficulty which is arising, but they have not so far put before me evidence to that effect.

Does not the Minister consider the drop of more than 20 per cent. in the number of prescriptions between February and March when the increased charge came in as evidence? What other evidence does he require before he will change his policy?

There is a Question on that on the Order Paper.

asked the Minister of Health if he will now reconsider the amount charged for items of prescription in the light of the 20 per cent. decrease shown by the fall from 22,200,000 items in February, 1961 to 17,500,000 items in March, 1961.

No, Sir.

Is not this adequate evidence of the failure of the policy with regard to the prescription charge? Has the Minister considered the additional evidence which I submitted to him of dispensing chemists in the Willesden area, where a chemist has been asked several times, when there are three items on the prescription list, which one is important because the mother cannot afford the other two until the end of the week? Has the Minister considered that letter? What further evidence does he require before he changes this appalling policy?

The second part of the supplementary question appears to relate to a different matter. As regards the fall between February and March, there are a great number of factors which no doubt played a part in this and which made the figure for March in itself of very little help and guidance. For example, the influenza epidemic came to an end before the end of February, and in this year March was an exceptionally fine month.

The Minister estimated a 2 per cent. fall in prescriptions. He has here a 20 per cent. drop. Does he not appreciate that this compares not only with the 2 per cent. that he estimated, but with the actual increase between February and March of last year? Is not this abundant evidence that people are not getting the prescriptions they need?

No, Sir. One cannot take individual months without regard to the circumstances, and certainly nothing less than the experience round the whole year can disclose any trends which are capable of being interpreted in a useful way.

In view of the differing evidence and opinions which have been expressed, and the fact that we have had some months' experience of the new charge, might it not be wise for the Minister to initiate some inquiry to try to find out what the situation is today?

I still think that it is too early for anything of that sort, but I am sure that the professions and the bodies which administer the Service will bring to my attention any evidence which comes their way.

Is the right hon. Gentleman implying that he has to wait 12 months or longer before he is prepared to take any action? Does he mean that he wants something drastic and outstanding to happen, such as people perhaps dying because they have not received medical attention, before he will take action?

I am sure that that would be brought to my attention, but the estimate to which the hon. Member for St. Pancras, North (Mr. K. Robinson) referred was an estimate for 12 months. All I said was that one could not judge how it was working out on a single month.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I will seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is reviewing, in the light of the current and future needs of the National Health Service, the conclusions of the Willink Committee on the intake of medical students, and if he will make a statement on future policy in this respect.

asked the Minister of Health how many general medical practitioners are needed in England and Wales to bring the service up to the strength that he estimates is now required.

asked the Minister of Health if the recommendation of the Willink Committee that student intake by British medical schools should be reduced by 10 per cent. in 1962 is still in accordance with Government policy.

The Secretary of State for Scotland and I are reviewing the data and calculations which under lie the estimates in the Willink Committee's Report. The student intake is larger now than when the Committee reported.

I am very glad indeed to know that the Minister is reviewing this, but would he now appreciate that this was one of the most disastrous reports upon the Health Service ever acted upon by his Department, and will he now agree with the view of eminent people that there is a shortage of doctors in the National Health Service?

So far from a reduction of student intake following upon that Report, the intake is higher now than it was four years ago.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how much overcrowding in medical schools is due to the acceptance of some part of the Willink Report? Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many schools are overcrowded and what steps he has in mind for the future to diminish this overcrowding?

Not without notice, but I do not think the Report and its conclusions can have contributed to whatever may be the present state of overcrowding.

Would not the Minister agree that if the young registrars who help to staff particularly our provincial hospitals and who come from the Commonwealth were to be withdrawn—who may well not come in great numbers in the future—we should be in very great difficulty indeed?

I quite agree that this is an important factor in the statistical picture.

asked the Minister of Health if he will introduce legislation to prevent the sale of tablets purporting to modify the effects of alcohol.

No, Sir.

Is my hon. Friend aware that pills called "Soberettes" are on sale in pubs and sweet shops, which are banned by the Pharmaceutical Society from being sold in chemists' shops, which might give the impression that drunken motorists can cure themselves from alcoholism by taking these pills? Is it not wrong that this sort of pill, which gives no evidence of any content, should be on sale giving a false assurance to people that they might be cured?

I am aware that such tablets are on sale. It is not quite correct to say that the Pharmaceutical Society has banned them. It has issued a notice advising chemists

"…in view of the possibility of misuse and the consequent danger to the public…"

asked the Minister of Health what is the current shortage of mental health workers; what is this figure as a percentage of the total required; and what steps are being taken to remedy the shortage.

The unfilled need for mental health workers, though it cannot be estimated precisely, is certainly very large. The establishment of a National Council for Social Work Training, and the provision of additional training courses, ought to help.

Is the hon. Lady aware that the Mental Health Act recently put on the Statute Book will be largely ineffective so far as local authorities are concerned if we do not solve these problems? Can she say what steps are being taken to encourage these people by means of wage increases, improved working conditions and the like?

I agree with the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. Practical steps are being taken. Two-year full-time training courses are being started in September at the London County Council North-West Polytechnic, at the City of Birmingham College of Commerce and the Liverpool College of Commerce. I understand that there has been an excellent response from would-be applicants, and the hon. Gentleman might like to know that a course is being arranged for Scotland too.

Can the hon. Lady give an assurance that legislation to set up a national council for social work training will be introduced early in the next Session of Parliament?

Legislation is to be introduced. For obvious reasons, I cannot give the undertaking which the hon. Gentleman seeks.

Will the hon. Lady reply to the last part of the supplementary question from my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. Hamilton)? Is the Minister taking any initiative in the matter of pay and conditions? Has not it been shown in the case of other public servants that unless pay and conditions are improved, although recruits may be obtained, they cannot be retained?

As the hon. Gentleman should know, that is a matter for the appropriate Whitley Council.

But is the Ministry taking any initiative?

asked the Minister of Health when he proposes to instruct regional hospital boards and boards of governors to review the medical staffing of their hospitals in accordance with the recommendations of the Platt Committee.

A decision on these recommendations will be reached when discussions with the professional bodies have taken place.

Is the Minister aware that before he can take action he will need some of this evidence in his hands? Will he ask for it now so that he is prepared to make more consultant posts ready after the discussions have ceased with the profession?

It is essential first to have the profession's view in principle on the recommendations of the Platt Report.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that hospital out-patient services in Deptford and neighbouring districts are having to be curtailed as a result of the reduction in locum tenens sessions imposed by the South-East Metropolitan Regional Hospital Board; and what steps he will take to ensure that an adequate out-patient service is provided.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the decision of the South-East Metropolitan Regional Hospital Board to reduce the number of locum tenens available to consultants, senior hospital medical officers and registrars in the Greenwich and Deptford Hospital Group; and if he will ask the Regional Board to reverse their decision so as to avoid a consequent delay in the treatment of patients.

The Board has introduced a scheme to avoid extravagant use of locums. Difficulties have been anticipated over locums for two clinics in Deptford and Greenwich, but steps are being taken to ensure that these difficulties do not arise.

What steps are being taken? Is the hon. Lady aware that the venereal disease clinic is having its locum sessions cut from twenty-four to six, when the national incidence of venereal disease is rising? Also the tuberculosis clinic is having its number of locum sessions cut from thirty to twelve. In view of the fact that her right hon. Friend is so tough with patients, is it not about time that he got tough with the Regional Hospital Board to stop these cheeseparing tricks at a time when the out-patients departments' should be properly staffed for 12 months of the year?

The difficulties the hon. Gentleman mentioned are the anticipated difficulties of those departments because the Hospital Management Committee has not allocated its number of locums in the proportion which the Regional Hospital Board envisaged. Nevertheless, the Regional Hospital Board has increased the number of locums from its original proposal of 170 to 225—as I think the hon. Gentleman knows from his correspondence with the Board—and in turn my right hon. Friend has asked the Board to ensure that there should be no reduction in the amount of service available.

As the total reduction amounts to about 135 sessions in the Hospital Management Committee, can the hon. Lady say how it is possible to reduce medical attention by 135 locum tenen sessions and still have a Hospital Management Committee without causing intense hardship to patients in the Greenwich and Deptford area? Would not she also agree that the allocations which apparently were not to the liking of the Regional Hospital Board were made by the medical committees of this Hospital Management Committee which one would have thought were as capable as the Regional Hospital Board of getting medical staff?

As I say, the Regional Hospital Board has allocated 225 sessions this year for locum duties compared with an estimated 334 last year, but the purpose behind this proposal, which was initiated by the Regional Hospital Board, was to rationalise the provision of locums to combine at the same time as annual leave is envisaged the number of locums required for the job. Nevertheless, as I have said, my right hon. Friend has made clear to the Board that we expect service to be available. May I make one further point? Service in out-patient clinics usually tends to drop during the holiday period.

May I have an assurance that the out-patient clinics or departments for venereal disease and tuberculosis will not be cut this year? Does the hon. Lady not understand that this is most important in crowded areas such as Greenwich and Deptford, particularly when the incidence of both diseases nationally is disturbing?

I understand that, but this is a matter for the Board, working through the appropriate authority, which in this case is the Hospital Management Committee.

asked the Minister of Health in what areas, and in what specialities, there was a shortage of doctors in Great Britain in 1960.

I assume the hon. Member refers to hospital doctors. Vacancies in the grades of registrar and below were slightly under 9 per cent. of posts, varying between 6 per cent. and 17 per cent. in different regions, but some vacancies were filled by locums. In senior grades there were few vacancies apart from those arising in the ordinary course.

What long-term steps are being taken to remedy this state of affairs? In view of the founding of more universities, is the right hon. Gentleman having discussions with the University Grants Committee with a view to founding new medical schools in these universities?

I have referred in Answer to a previous Question to the steps being taken to revise the statistical basis of the estimates of doctor requirements.

But is the right hon. Gentleman taking any particular steps now? Surely with the new universities it would be possible to start one or two new medical schools almost at once?

Starting new schools is not a matter for me but some estimation of the requirements of the Health Service is, and I have referred to that in a previous Answer.

Regarding the shortage of consultant posts, would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the statement of the number of vacancies is not a fair assessment of the position, since large numbers of regional boards want additional posts established which his own Department does not permit them to establish?

Vacancies are the only statistical figures which I have available to give to the hon. Gentleman. But the number of posts in 1960 for which approval was withheld because there were no applicants available to fill them is comparatively few.

asked the Minister of Health whether he accepts the recommendations of the Platt Report with respect to unrestricted visiting in hospitals.

Yes, Sir.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Will he ensure that the recommendations are brought to the attention of regional hospital boards and by them to the management authority of the hospitals concerned?

Yes, they have been so conveyed, and the evidence is that the great majority of children's wards do allow visits on every day. But I intend to keep up pressure to ensure that there is a full implementation of these recommendations.

asked the Minister of Health what is the overall shortage of hospital almoners; what is this figure expressed as a percentage of the total required; what steps are being taken to overcome the shortage; and how soon he expects the problem to be completely solved.

I understand that about 260 vacancies were recently known to the Institute of Almoners but not all these were in the hospital service. New facilities for training almoners have been provided at six universities in England and Wales in recent years and the numbers employed in the hospital service are slowly increasing.

That does not quite answer the question. I asked the hon. Lady what is that figure, expressed as a percentage of the total required? Can she say, further, whether the trend is towards an improving situation? Can she also say how many of these almoners are among the 300,000 Surtax payers relieved in the last Budget?

Figures are not available to answer the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question because neither establishment nor recruitment is controlled separately, Nevertheless, the numbers are improving as I indicated. In general, there is no shortage of applicants. One of the difficulties arises because, as part of the training is practical, qualified almoners have to make time to train others, which limits the rate of progress. But it is improving.