asked the Minister of Education what staff is seconded to his Department from the Scottish Education Department to assist in dealing with international relationships in the field of education.

None, Sir. My Department maintains close contact with the Scottish Education Department in these matters.

Is the Minister satisfied with the adequacy of these arrangements? Is he aware that in his Department, which is singularly lacking in an adequate supply of information, inquiries from abroad are sometimes met with the answer "No information on this subject is available", when information is available in respect of the Scottish education system? Would it not be much better either to allow the Secretary of State to have his own direct relations with overseas agencies or to have adequate liaison at London?

I am not aware of such difficulties. In the international sphere we work very closely together, and we very much appreciate the help which we get from Scotland and from the Scottish Members who come on our delegations.

asked the Minister of Education whether he will take steps to encourage women over 60 years of age to remain in the service of youth organisations and the teaching profession if they should so volunteer.

This is a matter primarily for employing authorities. In my Circular 15/60, issued last December, I asked local education authorities to invite teachers who were able and willing to do so to postpone their retirement in order to meet the urgent staffing needs of the schools. If an authority wished to retain a women over 60 in the Youth Service, I hope that it would do so.

While thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask how many people have been taken on? Has there been an increase? In many cases this is a very fruitful source. What steps is my right hon. Friend taking to publicise the arrangements?

My circular is the manner in which I am publicising them.

asked the Minister of Education what the response has been to his Come Back to Teaching campaign for married women teachers; and if he will make a statement.

Reports from authorities show that over 1,300 married women answered my appeal in the two months between the launching of the campaign and 31st March. Of these, 840 have already been appointed and the applications of another 500 are being considered. It is to early yet to say what the full response to the campaign will be, since many authorities have only recently begun their own local publicity campaigns to follow up the national campaign.

While thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask him how long he envisages carrying on this campaign? Has he in view any target figure which he would like to achieve?

The campaign will be a permanent feature of recruiting married women to the teachers' force I have no target figure.

Did not the right hon. Gentleman say at one point that he had a target figure? Did he not say that there were 50,000 married women teachers at an age at which they might still be able to teach in this country and that he hoped to obtain at least 5,000 of these for his service?

It would be a very good thing if we could get 5,000 over a period, but I have no time limit for such a task.

Would not my right hon. Friend get many more of these married women back into teaching if he could induce the Chancellor to allow their earnings to be separately assessed, for tax purposes, from those of their husbands? Would not that be a price worth paying, from the educational point of view?

My right hon. Friend has gone some way to meet the case of those married women whose incomes, taken together with those of their husbands, bring them into the Surtax class.

asked the Minister of Education whether he will now take steps to ensure that all school authorities are allowed to use the cane to maintain discipline in schools under his Department's control.

Local education authorities make their own regulations about the use of corporal punishment in schools and I consider this to be a matter properly within their discretion. But I hope that authorities in their turn give discretion, within limits, to head teachers.

Can my right hon. Friend say why his Department cannot issue general guidance throughout schools and not leave this matter entirely to local authorities? Surely this is one thing that we want to bring about, in view of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary's remarks not so long ago.

We have always left this question of the organisation of discipline in the schools very much in the hands of those who employ the teachers. I have no reason to think that it is not working well.

Is not the use of the cane recognised by the Home Secretary and many other authorities on this subject as one of the means of averting serious delinquency later on in life? In those circumstances, why are Socialist-controlled London County Council school managers allowed to obstruct Government policy?

I consider that the use of the cane, although it may be necessary, is an admission of failure on the part of the teacher. It is certain that the use of the cane could have a good effect only if the teacher himself believed in using it.

Are we to judge the results of the use of the cane by the products of public schools sitting opposite?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that public and educational opinion all over the United States and the U.S.S.R.—and, in fact, in every civilised country—is appalled at the recrudescence of this barbaric idea that the use of the cane is good for discipline?

We do what we think is right here. We do not need to take lessons in civilisation from other countries.

asked the Minister of Education whether he will set up a working party to consider methods of entry and selection to public schools and to consider whether this entry should be more broadly based.

No, Sir. My policy is to raise the standards in the maintained day-schools. If there is some special reason for a boarding education, and the parents cannot afford it, local education authorities have power to help.

May I draw my right hon. Friend's attention to a speech made recently by the headmaster of Eton, at Manchester? Is it not time that more positive steps were taken to encourage local authorities to make grants for boys to go to public schools? Would not this do much to encourage these great institutions to expand and, perhaps, new ones to be set up?

I do not think that public schools are in any need of candidates at the moment. They have nearly all got waiting lists. I read a report of the speech of the headmaster of Eton. It raises large issues, which cannot be answered at Question Time.

asked the Minister of Education what expansion of adult education he will encourage during 1961–62 by increasing the grants to the responsible bodies.

My Department's Vote includes£740,000 for adult education grants for the current year. This is an increase of£28,000 over last year. Most of the increase will be absorbed by unavoidable additional costs, but there will be some margin for new developments proposed by responsible bodies.

Is not this quite inadequate in regard to the right hon. Gentleman's responsibilities under the 1944 Education Act? Is not he aware that the number of staff and the amount of money involved would be quite small to make a considerable increase in the amount of adult education undertaken by responsible bodies? Will he look seriously into this matter?

There are many parts of the education service to which I should like to see more money going, but we have to have priorities, and at the moment I cannot see my way to increasing these grants.

Is it not time that the expansion referred to in the Question was tackled in quite a different way, by greatly improving the status, emoluments and conditions of service of teachers generally, so that British children could compete with foreign children in the educational field?

The teachers here are university teachers.

asked the Minister of Education what increase in membership of youth clubs has taken place since his Department accepted the recommendations of the Albemarle Report.

It is too early to assess the increase in club membership, but there has been a marked growth of enthusiasm, activity, and expenditure among both local education authorities and voluntary organisations.

Would it not be very helpful if the matter were debated here, so that all these facts could be brought to light? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in County Durham there is considerable alarm because the recommendations of the Albemarle Report have not been carried out? What is his reaction to that?

I believe that there is to be a Motion on Friday on this subject. I should be glad if the Youth Service expanded in County Durham. My information is that it is going quite well.

asked the Minister of Education, in view of the increasing unrest among teachers, what further action he intends to take to deal with their demand for an improved scale of salaries.

The Burnham Committee is now engaged in negotiating revised scales for teachers' salaries.

I am aware of that. In view of the possibility of the Burnham Committee recommending an adequate increase in salaries, does the Minister propose to take action?

We must wait and see.

Is the Minister aware of the report that he has already intimated to the Burnham Committee that he would not approve any settlement which it might reach which would involve more than a 10 per cent. increase in expenditure on teachers' salaries? Would he care to say whether that report is correct?

Unless the Minister is responsible for the report he cannot be asked about it. I do not know to what the hon. Member is referring.

asked the Minister of Education when the Youth Service Development Council is to issue a report.

An account of progress in the youth service, including the work of the Youth Service Development Council, will be published in my Department's Annual Report for 1960.

Useful as that may be, does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that it might be very helpful if a special report were made by this Council, of which I understand he is chairman? As my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Boyden) has pointed out, there is a good deal of anxiety about what is happening about the development of the Youth Service, and this might be a way of spreading information about what is being done.

I will consider that, but I hope that the hon. Lady sees our monthly bulletin called "Youth Service", which has a circulation of 22,000 copies and was started expressly for the purpose of reporting progress.

It is a monthly publication, but it does not give the picture over the country as a whole, although it gives some very interesting information about certain experiments.

asked the Minister of Education when he expects to announce the results of the review of the statistics provided to his Department.

The current review of the various parts of my Department's statistics is proceeding steadily, but will take some time to complete. As decisions are taken they are being implemented and will be evident in the statistical information published from now on.

I thank the Minister for that reply. Is he aware that in answer to a recent Parliamentary Question that I put to him he confessed that he could give no useful estimate at all of the number of children taking mathematics and science and the number of hours of tuition in these subjects, although his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland provided useful and exact information on these matters? How does he expect to plan education in this scientific age without that basic information? Will he ensure that the result of his review is at least to bring his statistical services up to the level of the Scottish Education Department?

I have no doubt that we can learn something from each other.

asked the Minister of Education what inquiries he makes about the particular needs of each area before approving the school-building programme; and what criteria he applies to the proposals put forward by local authorities.

I ask local authorities to supply supporting information with their major building proposals, and I also have the advice of Her Majesty's Inspectors. The relative urgency of each authority's proposals is then considered within the scope of current educational building policy and the national allocation for the year.

Is the Minister aware that his hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, on 23rd March in this House, spoke of local authorities putting in grossly inflated programmes for school building? Does the Minister agree with this assertion of the Parliamentary Secretary? If so, what is his evidence for saying that local authorities are putting in grossly inflated proposals?

I do not have the Parliamentary Secretary's words exactly in mind, but it is true that the proposals of some local authorities are inflated in relation to what could actually be done by the building industry in time.

Is it not clear that local authorities are putting in programmes to bring the educational standards in their localities up to the minimum requirements laid down by his Department and that, in that sense, they cannot be called inflated programmes? They are minimum programmes.

I quite agree, but it is necessary to be practical in the matter of building programmes.

asked the Minister of Education what steps he proposes to take to include fresh apples in school meals in order to promote dental health.

My right hon. Friend gives general guidance to local education authorities on nutritional standards for the meals service and has suggested that fresh fruit may be used.

asked the Minister of Education when it is intended to publish the report of the National Advisory Council on Education for Industry and Commerce on the various matters mentioned as having been referred to it in Better Opportunities in Technical Education, Command Paper No. 1254.

I will publish this report as soon as I have received and considered the comments of the associations of local education authorities and technical teachers.

I appreciate that it is essential to have these opinions. Will the Minister do what he can to expedite matters? Is he aware that many people are much concerned about the whole programme of technical education and that we want decisions on matters such as block release?

I will do my best.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is yet in a position to announce the revised proposals for the Northern Rhodesian constitution.

Not yet, Sir. The discussions to which I referred in my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison) on 4th May are still continuing.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that his constitutional proposals are now universally unpopular in Northern Rhodesia and regarded as being a departure from the non-racial principles of the 1958 constitution, being in conflict with the Treadgold Report on the franchise? Does he realise that delay over the announcement of their revision is undermining confidence in the Federation and playing into the hands of extremists on both sides?

I certainly do not agree with the first part of my right hon. Friend's statement, which is in entire contraction to the reports which I have had from the Governor and from other people. There has certainly been no delay in the announcement of these proposals. Regarding the reference to Southern Rhodesia, although the date of the referendum has not been announced, I can assure my right hon. Friend that the Northern Rhodesian discussions will be announced shortly.

Can the Secretary of State say what stage has been reached? Has every party accepted the Governor's proposals and has he put counter-proposals to them?

It is not quite in that sense. The Governor issued a memorandum explaining how the White Paper proposals would work out and possible ways in which they could be implemented. He has had meetings with the four political parties and chiefs and independents, and various meetings with people of different communities and so on, some of whom have put counterproposals. That is the situation.

Does my right hon. Friend recognise that it is one thing to ensure the assent of the various parties in Northern Rhodesia to his proposals but quite another thing, in the interests of a continued Federation, to secure the assent of appropriate and smaller groups in Southern Rhodesia? Will he frame his proposals for Northern Rhodesia in such a manner as to keep the Federation in being?

The view of Her Majesty's Government has always been—as I am sure my noble Friend knows very well—that federation is the best and the right form of association for these parties. But, frankly, I do not think it possible to put it in the way in which my noble Friend puts it. This is a Northern Rhodesian constitution discussion and must be directed in the first instance to that territory.

Can my right hon. Friend say when he will be able to make some announcement as a result of the discussions now going on?

It is very difficult to give a precise time, but I should think something like three weeks.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware of the subversive and untrue statements which have been broadcast recently by Moscow radio about conditions in Northern Rhodesia in connection with the constitutional talks; and what steps are being taken to counteract this propaganda.

Yes, Sir. The best positive answer to these grossly distorted statements is the effective dissemination of the true facts about conditions in Northern Rhodesia, and the constitutional talks and Her Majesty's Government's part in them. This has been and is being done by the B.B.C., the United Kingdom Information Services and local information services in United Kingdom territories.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply and apologising for not being present to ask Question No. 30, may I ask if my hon. Friend will say what steps have been taken to increase the information services in Rhodesia to dispel some of this propaganda?

In the current Budget, expenditure on information services will rise from£97,000 to£157,000.

Will the hon. Gentleman agree that the most effective way to meet this kind of distorted propaganda is to ensure the speediest possible constitutional progress towards self-government in Northern Rhodesia?

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies under what conditions political meetings of Africans are now permitted in Northern Rhodesia.

Permits are required for meetings in public places and may be withheld only if there is reason to apprehend a breach of the peace. Such conditions may be attached as are considered necessary to maintain public order.

Can the Colonial Secretary now say whether he has investigated the allegations and charges made by Mr. Kaunda, leader of the United National Independence Party, about intimidation and interference with his supporters in the Northern Province? Can he give information to the House on that matter?

I am in communication with the Governor of Northern Rhodesia on some of the matters raised with me by Mr. Kaunda when he was in this country. The position is that permits can be withheld only if there is reason to apprehend a breach of the peace.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that no one, certainly not myself, is alleging that the Administration in Lusaka is withholding permits unnecessarily, but what some of us are worried about is the local administration in the Northern Province? On that particular point I should like him specially to take up the matter with the Governor.

I was aware that that was the particular point to which earlier inquiries had been directed.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many sheep have been reported as stolen in Kenya during the last six months.

2,398 sheep have been reported as stolen in Kenya in the six-month period ending 31st March, 1961.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the reports of sheep stealing for the purposes of obtaining sheep for Mau Mau rites show that the stealing is nearly as prevalent as it was nine years ago and that there is every indication of a revival of Mau Mau in its new form, as the terrible murder of Mrs. Osborne only last week clearly shows? Would he reassure the House that he is taking firm and immediate steps to suppress Mau Mau in its new form?

Of course firm steps will be taken. In view of my right hon. Friend's Question, I have asked for a comparison with the figures for previous years, which I have not yet received, except that last year the figure was 1,500. If my right hon. Friend wishes to put down another Question, when I have the figures I will bring them to his attention.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will state the subjects he discussed, and the results achieved, at his recent conversations with the present Ministers of the Kenya Government.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on the outcome of his recent discussions with representatives of the new Government of Kenya.

The talks were concerned almost entirely with problems of finance and commerce. At the conclusion, we issued an agreed communiqué which I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is not it a fact that Her Majesty's Government have made a substantial grant to give the new Kenya Government a fair start on its new régime?

With respect, I should not like to put the matter quite in that way. We met a delegation of Ministers of all races who had a number of projects which they wanted to start in Kenya. We discussed the whole of the future development of Kenya. Regarding Kenya's next financial year, we are now to contribute from this country£14½million, plus an amount which cannot be revealed but which has been described as substantial toward Kenya's current figure and forthcoming Budget.

While not wishing to take sides between the different political parties in Kenya, would not my right hon. Friend agree that the constructive and courageous attitude of the new Ministers has resulted in a constitutional advance and that we ought to be as generous as possible to them—I recognise we have given them a lot—to ensure that there is a stable Government under the new constitution?

With similar considerations in mind and apart from the money mentioned in the communiqué, I agree that if Ministers wish to do so, later in the year I would hold further discussions.

Can the Secretary of State tell the House why he cannot state the amount of money given towards current expenditure?

Yes, because the budget speech in Kenya has not yet been made and I cannot announce it in advance.

If it is a fact that Her Majesty's Government have granted amenities to the new Kenya Government with a view to helping them on their way, does the Minister realise that that will be welcomed on this side of the House?

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) in view of the further evidence of resurgence of the bestial practices of Mau Mau in Kenya, forwarded to the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and the Governor of Kenya, on 3rd May by the hon. Member for Croydon, North-West, what steps he is now taking to deal with this situation in the interests of all the peoples of all races in Kenya;

I have drawn the Governor's attention to material forwarded to me by my hon. Friend. The Governor has ample powers to deal with any threat to security and will not hesitate to use them if necessary. I gave details of convictions in connection with oath taking in reply to a Question by my right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) on 4th May.

In view of the very regrettable fact that some ten years ago the then Kenya Administration was unfortunately not fully prepared for the outbreak of Mau Mau, and the subsequent fact of the terrible death roll of Europeans, Asians and 10,000 Africans, will the Colonial Secretary assure the House that the present Kenya Administration is fully prepared for any resurgence of Mau Mau and has all the strength and ability to deal with it should it unfortunately arise? Will he assure the Governor of Kenya that this House is completely behind him in firm dealing with a matter of this kind and the maintenance of law and order in Kenya?

Yes, I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. I am sure the Governor knows what has been referred to in the last part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, but it is right to have it stated in this House and I endorse it. On the situation now as compared with some years ago, my hon. Friend knows Kenya very well indeed and I am sure he knows the number of police, for example, and the forces available now, which are entirely different and much stronger than they were before. As to the intention to use all forms of protection against violence whatever may motivate the violence, if anything, my hon. Friend need be in no doubt at all. The Governor, I think, showed conclusively in what was called "Operation Milltown" a year ago how swiftly and effectively the security forces in Kenya could move.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I say that I appreciate that the forces are there, but can he make certain that the forces know they can be fully utilised to safeguard law and order without any question of doubt in Kenya?

I am sure there is no doubt about that whatever. I have been in touch with the Governor for a long time on this particular matter.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what further developments have taken place recently in respect of the Aden Protectorates Federation.

During my visit to Aden I was able to hear from the Federal Ministers themselves about the progress which is being made. The Federal Government have now moved into the new buildings at the Federal capital. An economic survey to provide a basis for development planning is in progress. A Federal Public Works organisation is being formed. I was impressed by the evidence of growing authority which the Federal Government is showing.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he also found among the people themselves an increasing understanding of the value of federation and, therefore, a readiness to support it?

Yes, I think that is so. It would be difficult in such a brief visit to get a comprehensive picture, but I got the impression that the Federation, which now includes all the important States of the Western Aden Protectorate, was doing very well.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that since 14th January, 1961, there has been a strike at Trinidad Cement Limited, in which the Colonial Development Corporation is a large shareholder, and that this strike is prejudicing the economy of the island; if he will state the causes of this strike; and if he will set up negotiating machinery to resolve the differences.

I have been kept informed about this strike. It began as a result of the Company's refusal to recognise the trade union which claimed to have the support of the majority of the employees. The Governor has recently informed me that negotiations under the chairmanship of the Minister of Labour have resulted in an agreement between the parties which was signed on 9th May providing for the ending of the strike and the establishment of trade union bargaining machinery. The interests of the Colonial Development Corporation are confined to non-voting preference shares which do not entitle the Corporation to intervene in the management of the company.

Is not it a fact that the strike is still continuing and that the grave economic situation in Trinidad calls for the setting up of an authoritative and independent inquiry, with an outside chairman, to investigate relations between capital and labour in the island?

As a result of that agreement, my understanding is that the strike ended the day before yesterday. But, in view of what the hon. and learned Gentleman says, I should like to check that. If this strike is over and if bargaining machinery has been established, it is a very satisfactory outcome on both counts of the investigation.

Is the Minister aware that there is great interest among trade unionists in this House on this subject and that we have done our best to help in ways that were open to us? If it turns out that the strike did not end, would the Minister consider what other action might be taken?

Yes, Sir. But I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will understand that Trinidad is virtually at the stage of full internal self-government and that this is something about which we could move only with the agreement of the Government.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will give a list of the Civil Service representative organisations in East and Central Africa from whom he has received representations about their future conditions of service during the last six months; and what machinery exists for settling these grievances.

I have received representations on various aspects of conditions of service from a number of associations, a list of which I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT. Representations are submitted to me under the provisions of Colonial Regulations and full consideration is given to them in consultation with the Governor of the territory concerned or the Administrator of the East Africa High Commission. I have met representatives of several of the associations, either in East Africa or in London.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this file, which contains, very exceptionally, all the memorials I have received in the last three months on the subject of conditions of Asians, Europeans and others in these territories, is without precedent in my experience? Does he not think that, in view of this astounding spate of complaints which are being made about the implementation of the Flemming Report, some new machinery might be needed to arbitrate between himself and the Treasury, on the one hand, and the Colonial Civil Service, on the other, as undoubtedly they are feeling a strong sense of grievance?

I do not think that is surprising. I have received a great number of delegations recently and a considerable number of representations about East Africa. That is not surprising either, because Tanganyika is moving swiftly towards independence. That has repercussions in that territory and in others, and naturally all the associations write to inquire about these matters. On the question of whether there should be arbitration or not, I think associations should be—as they are—fully consulted. After all, representations are part of the machinery and it is inevitable that these matters should be considered on a Government basis.

While this House has much sympathy with the pension problems of retired civil servants and the effect on the morale of existing civil servants, does not my right hon. Friend think that the implementation of the Flemming Report will bring great benefits to those at present serving? Will he also agree that over-statement of their case by some associations is to be regretted?

Yes, I do very much. The surest proof of that is the anxiety I find among people and staff associations representing other territories not covered by the original Flemming Report to have similar conditions of service attached to them.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is not the first group of territories which has reached self-government but I have never known anything like this coming from them before? Some of us are not allowed to say that these claims are over-stated because we do not know. Is it not right that the Colonial Secretary should adhere to the normal practice, that if there is a dispute on which Members of Parliament cannot arbitrate—we cannot ask for the details—there should be some machinery able to look at this again to see whether the implementation of the Flemming Report is being pursued properly or not?

I should be very glad if the hon. Member would like to send to me a commentary on some of the memorials he has received. There is no question of a change of policy, but this is inevitable because we have had both the H.M.O.C.S. scheme and the Flemming Report together. It is right that we should have these representations from East Africa. If he would like to see me further about the machinery I would be glad to see him, but my impression is that on these matters concerning Governments in East Africa which are at different stages of evolution and economy for this country to arbitrate would not be a suitable method of settling differences.

Will my right hon. Friend undertake to keep the House well informed on the situation in Tanganyika? I am sure he will agree that this should be done on two scores. First, the future employment of overseas civil servants who lose their positions. Secondly, the danger that the newly independent Government of Kenya may be so depleted of talented service as to have their efficiency impaired? Will he assure the House that he will keep us well informed and devote all his efforts towards avoiding these two dangers?

I will do that. This is one of the matters I will be discussing next month with the Tanganyika Ministers when they come here.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he has studied the complaints, details of which have been sent to him by the hon. Member for Louth, of a Cleethorpes fish merchant whose fish arrives by train in Leeds early in the morning but is not delivered to the Leeds fish market till 7.30 a.m., whereas fish from Aberdeen is delivered at 6 a.m.; and, in view of his responsibilities for the efficient distribution of fresh food, if he will make representations to the British Transport Commission to speed up deliveries of fish from Cleethorpes to the Leeds market.

I have been in touch with the British Transport Commission and they have asked for more details than the hon. Member furnished me with in his letter. If the hon. Member will provide me or the Commission with the further details I have asked him for in reply to his letter, then the British Transport Commission will be glad to investigate the matter.

I am under the impression that I sent these details to the Minister of Transport to whom the Question was first put. I think that there must have been some misunderstanding between the two Departments. I will send the details to my right hon. Friend. All I am asking is that the Grimsby fish merchants should be protected. Their trade is entirely dependent on the railway services, and at the moment they feel that their Scottish competitors are getting an advantage. Will he see that they get a fair crack of the whip?

My information is that British Railways require the date and size of the consignments, and they further say that no representations have as yet been made to them locally. If my hon. Friend will provide me with these details, I know that British Railways will be glad to have them.

Would the Minister agree that one reason for this situation is that the interests of Cleethorpes and Louth are not so forcibly represented in this House as are those of North Aberdeen?

The hon. Gentleman would not necessarily arrive at the right conclusion if he thought that.

Is the Minister aware that Aberdeen gets up very early in the morning to do its business, and does it very effectively?

The Question is not about the time at which Aberdeen gets up. It is about the time at which fish is delivered to Leeds in the morning.