asked the Minister of Labour how many times the representatives of Association football have had meetings with his Chief Conciliation Officer during the last two years; on how many occasions agreement was reached; and why a final settlement has not yet been arrived at.

There have been ten joint meetings and several preparatory meetings held separately with each side. An agreement was reached on 18th January, and the terms of this agreement were clarified at a further joint meeting on 16th May. No final settlement has been reached because the annual general meeting of the Football League on 3rd June decided not to implement the agreement in full.

Does not the Minister agree that the players have been honourable and reasonable in their dealings? Is he aware that they now urgently and sincerely desire a settlement, and that they appreciate the services of his officers, especially the Chief Conciliation Officer? Will the right hon. Gentleman now consider the need to set up a representative industrial council, and will he consider inviting someone like Lord Monckton or Lord Citrine to preside over such a council?

I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman has said about my officers. As he knows, we have tried our best to get a settlement. I do not know whether he is aware that the Professional Footballers' Association are meeting on 28th June to consider a letter from the Football League which was sent on the 5th. Until that meeting takes place, I would rather not make any further comment.

Is the Minister aware that we all hope that good will come from the journey he is about to make, but that it will take him away from this country; so will he have a good talk to his Parliamentary Secretary so that he will act in the same way as the Minister?

I will certainly carry out the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will arrange for an inquiry to be made into the relation. ships which exist in Association football, and into the long drawn out differences resulting in the dispute in which his conciliation officer was concerned; and if he will publish the results of this inquiry so that a settlement may be reached acceptable to all interests.

I would not wish to rule out the possibility of a settlement being reached by negotiation between the parties and, in these circumstances, I do not think an inquiry would be appropriate.

asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that the practice of many industrial firms in keeping a week's wages in hand imposes unnecessary hardship on men how, having been out of work, take up employment with such firms, that many such firms refuse to make advances to employees in respect of the payment of wages due to them, and that in consequence many men have to seek help from the National Assistance Board; and if he will consult with employers on this matter with a view to introducing legislation to protect workmen against such hardship.

This problem was discussed with representatives of employers and trade unions on my right hon. Friend's National Joint Advisory Council in 1952, and the British Employers' Confederation took steps to bring it to the attention of employers. Subsequently there was a marked drop in the number of men who had to seek help on this account from the National Assistance Board. The situation is kept under review and does not appear to call for further action at the present time. If, however, the hon. Member would like to write to me about any difficulties which are arising, I shall be glad to look into them.

I will take advantage of the hon. Gentleman's offer. Is he aware that this Question arises out of com- plaints made to me following a recent statement by the Chairman of the National Assistance Board to the Magistrates' Association at Carlisle? Does he appreciate that thousands of workmen endeavour to retain their dignity, pride and honesty but on some unfortunate occasions are embarrassed by being forced to go to the National Assistance Board because of the attitude of some employers who refuse to grant their request for part of their lying-on wages? Is he aware that this creates undue hardship and a demand on public moneys? Finally, will the Parliamentary Secretary agree to worth-while consultations taking place with his right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance in an endeavour to improve the position?

I said that I should be pleased to hear from the hon. Member about any cases he has in mind. I realise that the practice of holding the first week's wage and refusing to make an advance may cause hardship in certain cases and, indeed, as the hon. Member said, may cause some wasteful Government expenditure. I hope that employers who keep a week's wages in hand and do not make advances will reconsider their policy in instances where this causes hardship.

I join the hon. Member in that last sentiment. Does he believe that it is necessary for employers to retain a week's wages in hand? I understand the old basis for it, when the office equipment was not as modern as it is today. It was then very difficult. Perhaps he will also consider putting to the N.J.A.C. the general thought that employers may care to look again at their arrangements to see whether they can cut down the number of days' pay they keep in hand.

This matter was considered by the N.J.A.C. and, following that, there was a request by the B.E.C. to its constituent members in 1952. After that request the number of cases was cut down considerably. Apart from the complaint of the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr. Woof), there have been no complaints since then and we have no reason to believe that the improvement has not been maintained.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will increase the number of wages inspectors.

No, Sir. The numbers of wages inspectors employed are adequate for current needs.

Is it not a fact that for some years less than 10 per cent. of the establishments on the Wages Councils lists have been inspected and that as a result of these inspections over £100,000 per year has been recovered for employees who have been underpaid? Are we not entitled to assume from those figures that about £1 million a year remains in the pockets of unscrupulous and forgetful employers which should go into the pockets of people who are covered by these orders? Is it not time that these miserably low rates of pay were effectively enforced?

I can only repeat that I am satisfied that the present system is working. I am glad to say that in the past five years the proportion of employees found to be underpaid has fallen. I would take some action if I felt there was need for it, but I am satisfied with the present arrangements.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the high percentage of registered disabled persons unemployed in Ilkeston, Heanor, Ripley and Alfreton; and what steps are being taken to enlarge the field of employment in useful and remunerative work.

The rate of unemployment among registered disabled persons in these areas is lower than the rate among registered disabled persons in Great Britain as a whole. Our disablement resettlement officers take every opportunity of finding suitable openings for the disabled.

I am glad to know that the percentage is lower in this area than in others, but it is quite high. The point which arises out of the Question is that the prospect for men out of work, in a district where industry is predominantly heavy, is remote. Those out of work have a very remote chance of finding employment unless there is some enlargement of the field of work in which they can be employed, such as Remploy and similar occupations.

Order. I hope that the hon. and learned Member will come to the question.

I beg your pardon, Mr. Speaker.

I was waiting for some interrogatory matter.

Surely it was a natural sequence to the Answer.

It is not the time to make speeches but the time to ask Questions. I have to go on about it in order to keep the House on the move.

I agree with the hon. and learned Member that, in the main, the jobs in the area are heavy and, as such are unsuitable for disabled persons, but I am glad to say that about 400 additional jobs are expected to accrue in these areas, and the disablement re-settlement officers will see that disabled people benefit when these openings occur.

asked the Minister of Labour, in view of the failure of the Local Employment Act to stop the shift of population from the North-East, what other measures he will adopt to stop this trend.

asked the Minister of Labour if his attention has been drawn to the Census Report which reveals considerable migration from the North-East during the past 10 years; and what action he proposes to deal with the problems involved.

asked the Minister of Labour what remedial plans he has in mind to stop the migration from the North-East to other parts of the country.

As I told my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) on 12th June, through their distribution of industry policy the Government are encouraging firms to develop in parts of the country where unemployment is relatively high and discouraging developments in already congested areas. Changes in the geographical distribution of the country's labour force are, however, bound to occur in an expanding economy.

I have read that reply, which means nothing. Is the Minister aware the continual migration from the North-East is having a disastrous effect on the area? Is he aware that during the last ten years half of those who have left have been under the age of 35? Is this not most undesirable, because not only is the North-East losing population but it is left with an unbalanced age population? Will he tell the House what steps he is taking to stop industry going into the already congested areas and to direct such industries to the North-East?

As I indicated, a good deal is being done.

What?

May I try to answer the hon. Gentleman? There are 21,000 jobs in prospect in the North-East, and 10,000 of these are in development districts. If we look back, we see that as a result of Board of Trade assistance and so on there were about 57,000 workers in Board of Trade factories. The Government's policy is, therefore, helping to bring industry to the North-East. But I repeat that if we want economic growth we must accept a degree of labour mobility.

When the right hon. Gentleman says that the Government are doing these things, does he think that there is adequate co-operation between the different Government Departments? Would he consider convening a conference of the central Government Department and the local authorities on the problem and show some sign of coming to grips with the problem of the migration of the young from the North-East?

I agree that there should be very close co-operation between the Government Departments and all others concerned, and I maintain that there is. It is not fair to deny that much has been done.

Does not the Minister agree that the Local Employment Act is expected to take account of future as well as present unemployment? In view of the fact that this is having only a slight impression on the present unemployment position in the northeast of England, in spite of what he promised us, will he tell us how he expects to solve the long-term problem and thereby stop the drift of young people to other parts of the country looking for jobs?

I hope the hon. Member noticed that as a result of Government policy there are 21,000 jobs in prospect in the North-East at the moment.

Does the Minister agree that when he talks of a need for mobility of labour it should be a two-way street? In other words, the present mobility means that all are coming South. Many of my hon. Friends who represent towns throughout the North will certify that they are losing population rapidly. Will the Minister look again at the use of certification for extensions in the South in order to try to persuade those who wish to extend their businesses in the South that they will be short of labour if they do and that they will be far better served if they agreed to go to the North?

The hon. Member and I have no quarrel on this. I made it clear in my Answer that we are encouraging firms to develop in parts of the country where unemployment is relatively high and are discouraging them from developing in congested areas.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is ready to make a statement on the possibility of introducing a differential training levy on industry in order to stimulate apprenticeship schemes and other forms of training, following the recent visit of some of his officials to France to study the system there.

As the hon. Gentleman knows, a study of this whole question is being made, but I am not yet ready to make a statement.

Is the Minister likely to make that statement before the House rises for the Summer Recess? Will he bear in mind that there is a great deal of urgency in this matter, especially as the bulge of school-leavers begins leaving school in four or five weeks' time? Even though a plan could not be in operation by then, if he made an announcement it might have a moral effect and improve the chances of those school-leavers.

I am afraid that I cannot give the hon. Member that assurance. These are far-reaching and important issues which will need plenty of time for consideration.

asked the Minister of Labour how many applications for training as machine operators at Hillington have been received in Aberdeen; and whether he is getting sufficient volunteers.

Since recruitment began in March there have been six applications. The number depends upon the availability of disabled persons suitable for training.

Although the employment position in Aberdeen is much better than it has been for the last four years, does not the Minister think that more could be done to encourage the disabled to join this scheme, because there are large numbers of men who could benefit from it?

These facilities for training are already being brought to the notice of disabled persons calling at the exchange who might benefit.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will state the total population in the Easington Parliamentary division at the census in 1951 and at the present date; and what is the number of insured workers in the area now and in 1951, respectively.

82,170 in 1951 and 85,156 in 1961. Figures of insured employees in the Parliamentary division are not available, but in the wider area consisting of the Haswell, Houghton-le-Spring, Horden, Seaham Harbour and Wingate employment exchange areas, there were 60,784 insured employees in 1951 and 59,940 in 1960.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is satisfied with the arrangements for negotiation, conciliation and arbitration obtaining in the trades, services and professions staffed by white collar unions; and if he will make a statement.

The arrangements vary so much in different trades, services and professions that it is not possible to express a general opinion. If the hon. Member is concerned about the arrangements in any particular sector, perhaps he would inform me. I would be pleased to consider any points he cares to raise.

While thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask him whether he does not agree that we are now seeing a new phenomenon in the rise of white collar unions and an improvement in the industries and the professions in which they are engaged? We now see in banking, insurance and professions of that type—and now in the teaching profession—that these unions are not content to have to go on with the old struggle which the manual unions had 100 years ago. Would it not be far better if the Ministry, with the N.J.C., considered how to short-circuit this to eliminate any dangers there may be of industrial unrest among these organisations?

The hon. Member will remember that we had a very useful debate on this subject on 17th March. I have not much to add to what my hon. Friend said then, except to say that I have had some discussions with interested parties.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will describe the nature of the apprenticeship scheme operated by the betting industry, giving the length of time required to be served, the qualifications demanded, and the percentage of apprentices in the industry at present enrolled in the appropriate day release classes.

There is no apprenticeship schema for the betting industry as such. Figures recently published by the Department showed sixteen boys and five girls entering apprenticeships or learnerships in the industry in 1960. Of these, two boys entered the industry as apprentices in engineering and printing occupations; one boy and four girls entered the industry as clerks, not as apprentices; eleven boys and one girl entering apprenticeships in other industries were wrongly classified as entering the betting industry and two cases cannot be traced. I apologise for these errors, which are partly due to changes in the industrial coding.

The published figures from which the information has been taken show there were more apprentices this year than ever before. Are not these figures exceedingly unreliable? Will the Minister look much more closely into the question of how the figures are arranged and obtained so that we can get some reliable information about the number of apprentices in industry?

I do not think the Answer I gave shows that the figures as a whole are unreliable. My inquiries have shown that the mistakes are mainly due to the recent introduction of the betting industry under a separate heading in the statistics, which apparently has led to some confusion between the new heading and previously existing headings. A new procedure which is to come into operation next month has as one of its objectives to reduce the possibility of such errors.

asked the Minister of Labour what success he has had in finding other jobs for workers displaced by the decision of Imperial Chemical Industries to close its factory at Camborne, Cornwall; and how many of these jobs were outside the county.

Since the decision to close the factory was announced, two men and twenty-nine women have been discharged. Both men and eighteen women registered at the employment exchange. Of these, one man is still unemployed. The remainder secured employment locally. The factory will finally close at the end of July, and, in agreement with the firm, the employment exchange has taken advance regis- trations for forty-two men and ninety-one women seeking other employment.

I find it rather difficult to understand the figures, because four years ago there were 500 workers in this factory? Will the hon. Gentleman do all he can, using whatever influence he may possess, to persuade I.C.I. to run another industry in my constituency instead of leaving us entirely in the lurch?

It is true that the labour force was originally 500. It has been reduced, but the reduction has been mainly due to retirements and resignations. Only 31 people have been discharged. As to the employment situation, I understand from the President of the Board of Trade that there are 500 jobs in prospect in the Camborne-Redruth area.

Can the hon. Gentleman say how many of the employees have decided not to take up other work? A considerable number of married women were concerned.

I cannot give the exact figure, but 67 of the 200 employees affected did not accept the offer of interview by our employment exchanges. It may well be that they will leave the employment field.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the Terms and Conditions of Employment Act, 1959, is not providing satisfactory arbitration procedure; and what action he proposes to take in the matter.

I have had representations made to me on various points, but I think that during the short period the Act has been in operation it has been fulfilling the purpose for which it was intended. I have no action in mind at the present time.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that N.A.L.G.O. is experiencing great difficulty with certain local authorities which will not honour agreements? Does he realise that when the Industrial Disputes Tribunal went out of being it left a gap, as some of us on this side of the House said at the time it would? If we cannot have some form of arbitration to take the place of the Tribunal, we may well see unrest because of the lack of facilities for the unions to go to arbitration.

I understand what the hon. Member has in mind, but I think we need more experience of the existing legislation before we think about possible revision.

asked the Minister of Labour what was the increase in percentage of negotiated hourly wage costs in 1960; what was the average increase over the whole period since 1957 to the latest convenient date; and how this compares with productivity growth during this period.

In the manufacturing industries, hourly wage rates rose by 7·9 per cent. in 1960 and at the end of March 1961 were 21·8 per cent. higher than at 1st January, 1957. Output a head in these industries decreased by about 1 per cent. in 1960 and in the first quarter of 1961 was about 10 per cent. higher than in the first quarter of 1957.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that these figures are most disturbing in view of the lack of increase in productivity? Has he read the Report of the O.E.E.C., published in May, 1961? What is he doing to meet some of the main criticisms which say that institutional arrangements in a number of industries are antiquated, there is weakness in central bodies on both sides of industry, and arbiters have no definite norm to take as a guide when making awards? Is he aware that this Report is most disturbing and that we hope he is not going to be mesmerised by the problems of the Common Market but will get down to tackling these labour problems, which are the core and pith of all the problems in this country today?

I assure my hon. Friend that, apart from a short visit abroad, I shall concentrate all my efforts on the matters of which he has been talking. As he knows, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made cleat on a number of occasions—and rein- forced only last week—the real dangers which inflation could bring to this country.

asked the Minister of Labour, in view of anxiety regarding juvenile employment this year in southwest Durham, if he will institute, through his divisional offices, an inquiry regarding new vacancies for apprentice training to assist in meeting the employment situation of school leavers this year.

No, Sir. I do not think a special inquiry of the kind suggested is necessary. The Youth Employment Service is keeping the position under constant review.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the east Durham area has been seriously affected over the last few years in the matter of employment and the apprenticeship of young people leaving school? Is he further aware—as he has said that his juvenile officers are looking into this matter—that the time has arrived, in view of the seriousness of the position, for his Department, with the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Education, to enter into conversations about the employment of young people who will be leaving school at the end of this term?

I appreciate the employment difficulties in south-west Durham, but the present indications are that there has been an improvement. In addition, the percentage of boys entering apprenticeships is higher there than in the country as a whole. In 1960, in the Northern Region it was 40·1 per cent. compared with 36 per cent. for the whole country.

asked the Minister of Labour how many school leavers have been placed in apprenticeship schemes during the last 12 months in south-west Durham; how these figures compare with those for the rest of the county; and what proposals he has to meet the demand for juvenile employment at the close of the summer term this year.

Figures for the last twelve months are not available, but reports indicate that the percentage of boys obtaining apprenticeships in southwest Durham is higher than in the country as a whole. The Youth Employment Service will do all it can to help summer school leavers find employment.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, unless employment can be found for these young people on leaving school, it will have serious effects upon the whole area? It is all very well for him to say that the percentage of boys obtaining apprenticeships in this area is much higher than in any other part of the country. I concede that that is correct in the eastern part of the country, but it is not correct in the south Durham area. Is he aware that the parents are very concerned? All they ask is that the same privileges and opportunities should be granted to their children as are given to children in other parts of the country?

The employment prospects for girls in the area are satisfactory. While I agree that the outlook for boys is less favourable than that for girls, it has greatly improved over the last year, and the rapid absorption of the Easter school leavers is very encouraging. On 12th June, out of 571 Easter school leavers four boys were left. The area is a development district under the Local Employment Act, and I am glad to say that there are now 1,600 jobs in prospect.

Is not the Parliamentary Secretary aware that these figures are very patchy, because that 40 per cent. includes a number of boys and girls who are travelling enormous distances from places like Middleton-in-Teesdale and Barnard Castle? The position is certainly not as rosy as he makes out.

I am giving the general figure. I agree that in certain areas there could be considerable improvement.

asked the Minister of Labour what action has been taken by the International Labour Office arising from Ghana's complaint of the use of slave labour in Angola.

The I.L.O. has set up a Commission to examine the complaint made by the Government of Ghana that the Government of Portugal are not observing the Abolition of Forced Labour Convention in Angola and Mozambique.

Has the Minister seen the reports by Baptist missionaries and others of how thousands of Africans over a period of years have been kidnapped from their villages for forced labour, not only in the public service, but on sugar, sisal and other private plantations? Can he give us an assurance that the Government representative on the Council of the I.L.O. voted in favour of this investigation?

Both parties were agreeable to setting up the Commission, and no vote was taken at the time.

Without asking the Government to interfere in the internal affairs of any country, may I ask my right hon. Friend if it is not the case that there are Arab, African and Communist member States of the I.L.O. and U.N.O. where slavery, the slave trade and forced labour are long-established institutions.

Will the Minister confirm that this country has ratified the I.L.O. Convention against forced labour? In view of that, will he give the House an assurance that the United Kingdom delegate will continue to vote for the most stringent degree of investigation in this case and that the British attitude will not be in any way confused or ambiguous, as our attitude has been on other issues affecting Angola?

The whole point is that the I.L.O. has agreed to set up a Commission. The Commission has been constituted. It hopes to have a report ready for the November meeting of the governing body of the I.L.O. The Commission is there to do its job, and until the report is available we do not want to ask too many hypothetical questions.

asked the Minister of Labour how many men are still liable to call-up for National Service, and in what ages or categories.

All British male subjects resident in Great Britain born before 1st January, 1941, and under 26 years of age are still liable under the National Service Acts, unless they have already served. They number about a million, but I would remind the hon. Gentleman of my reply on this subject to my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Sir S. Summers) on 18th November last year.

Does this mean that about 1 million men are still liable for call-up under the National Service Acts? As men not issued with enlistment notices before 17th November last are not to be called up, has not the time come to tidy up the whole of this business with the least possible delay, because this means that quite a number of people still do not know what their position is likely to be?

I think the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that we should repeal the National Service Acts, but these Acts cover men at present serving.

Is it really right that there are 1 million men liable to call-up? Is there any ambiguity as to their status and risk of call-up in the circumstances?

The figures are as I have just given the House.

This is an alarming statement. Most members of the general public do not realise that this is the case. Can the Minister split up the figures or give us some further information, because his reply is most disconcerting?

Yes, I will certainly undertake to do that.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will make a statement about the strike at Smith's Motor Accessories of Cricklewood.

This is an unofficial strike in support of a claim for higher wages. The procedure of the engineering industry for dealing with disputes has not been exhausted and the unions mainly concerned have instructed their members to return to work so that their claim may be dealt with through the procedure. I have asked the unions to take urgent steps to secure an early resumption of work and I very much hope their efforts will be successful. It is most regrettable that a group of workers should take unofficial and unconstitutional action contraary to their own unions' instructions, most especially when this action throws thousands of their fellow workers out of employment, damages the good name of the trade union movement, and weakens a great industry which is vital to the prosperity of this country.

The Minister seems to have conceded two points. First, the strike is causing disproportionate injury to industry elsewhere. [HON. MEMBERS: "Question."] I am coming to the question. The second point is that the strike is unofficial. What security have the public, workers in industry generally, and also the export drive in such a situation as this, or do we have to say that this is one of the irreconcilable problems of democracy?

I think that my hon. Friend has had a very clear expression of my feeling, which I think is shared by hon. Members on both sides of the House. I earnestly hope that as we get better understanding on these matters between both sides of industry incidents of this sort will not arise and, therefore, will not have the consequences to which I have just pointed.

I acknowledge the outstanding efforts my right hon. Friend is making to bring about better relations in this industry. May I ask him if he has seen the statement by prominent trade union leaders that there is a connection between this stoppage and the one at Lucas's—the connection being a subversive movement with headquarters overseas? Will he get in touch with these trade union leaders to see if he can give them any assistance in their admirable intention of making this fact widely known?

I have seen the newspaper reports to which my hon. Friend has referred, but I have no clear information on the subject. I think that there is a great deal of confusion in the minds of the strikers. When there is a great deal of confusion in the minds of strikers, it always lends itself to subversive influence.

Is the Minister aware that we on this side of the House join with him in hoping that the strikers will take note of the advice given by the trade union leaders and return to work? Is he aware also that there is still only one nation in the world with a better strike record than the United Kingdom? Will the Minister inquire into this case and find out if it is a fact that the workers concerned cannot get access to higher management? In many industries which are now enlarging, when there is a large firm with a number of ancillaries, the workshop machinery for negotiating cannot function because the employers will not give proper powers of decision to people other than the higher management itself.

I agree with what the hon. Member said in the first part of his supplementary question, and I will certainly take note of what he said at the end.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will state how the percentage rate of unemployment for Scotland now compares with that for Great Britain; what are the numbers involved; and how remedial schemes are progressing in Scotland.

At 12th June 2·8 per cent., 59,766. in Scotland and 1·2 per cent., 266,705, in Great Britain. There are about 31,000 jobs in prospect in Scotland, including 27,000 in the development districts.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that those figures, bad as they are, conceal a position which in parts is even worse than the figures he has given? Is he aware that in my division more and more men are being paid off from shipbuilding every week? More are being paid off now than a year ago. When will some of the many jobs concealed in the "pipelines" be released to remedy this state of affairs?

As I think the hon. Gentleman is aware, although there has been some contraction in that industry, things in Scotland are better on the whole, and I think that the Government deserve considerable credit for playing their part in getting extra diversification. There are such things as the new strip mill at Ravenscraig and the Bathgate project for the British Motor Corporation. All these things are maturing and will in time produce the extra jobs. Even so, what has already been achieved has produced this large number of extra jobs, which means, I am glad to say, that the unemployment figure in Scotland is lower than it has been for four years.

Does that reply mean that we can be optimistic and confident about the future of the shipbuilding industry on the Clyde?

I do not say anything of the kind. I said that as a result of the many measures put forward by the Government there was a greater diversification, which means that people have more choice of jobs in different types of industry than has ever before been the case in Scotland.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is now able to make a forecast of the number of extra apprenticeships likely to be available to school leavers in Scotland this year.

No, Sir. It is not possible to make any precise forecast, but reports reaching me give welcome indications that there is likely to be a good increase in apprenticeship numbers this year.

Is it not abundantly clear to the right hon. Gentleman that, even with the increase that he indicated might be reached this year, we shall, because of the number of school leavers, find that the number of those getting apprenticeships will fall far short of the number desiring them? Does he realise that this means that a large number of these boys and girls will go into dead-end jobs when they should be taking technical training to fit them for proper apprenticeships?

As I think I have indicated already in the House, and as I certainly have in Scotland, there are in Scotland considerable shortages of skilled labour, and it is my constant appeal to employers—and pressure is put on them—to provide as many apprenticeships as possible. I hope that hon. Members on both sides will support me in every way in the efforts I am making in this direction.

Can the Minister be more specific about his hopes for increased numbers of apprenticeships in Scotland? Is the number likely to be proportionate to the increase in the numbers of school leavers?

I cannot give the answer to that. There is no way of giving any precise figure, but what I have said in answer to the Question is that I think there should be a good increase in the numbers.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is because of the lack of these jobs in Scotland that our unemployment percentage is still more than twice that of the rest of Britain, and what we want to know is what he and his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland are doing to put the matter right?

I quite agree with the hon. Gentleman that the unemployment rate is higher in Scotland than in England and Wales, but I am glad to say that unemployment in Scotland has fallen to 2·8 per cent., which is a considerable improvement.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will discuss with the Minister of Education and the Secretary of State for Scotland the possibility of encouraging local education authorities to promote group apprentice schemes, based on local technical colleges.

My right hon. Friends have issued circulars encouraging education authorities to provide first-year apprenticeship courses in technical colleges. Though this assistance is not limited to particular types of apprenticeship scheme, it is expected that these courses will be of particular benefit to small firms which find it difficult to provide adequate training facilities except by sharing in co-operative enterprise.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what response there has been to this appeal and, in particular, what has been done in Scotland?

If the hon. Gentleman would like me to give him full particulars, I shall certainly let him know. It is probably better to do it in that way.

If local education authorities do provide such courses which are so necessary in Scotland, what financial aid will they get from the central Government, because that is of the greatest importance to the working of the general grant?

I think that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education will be discussing these matters with local education authorities in England and Wales; and by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland with those in Scotland. I think that these matters come within their purview rather than mine.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will take steps to establish a national bureau of apprenticeships so that there is full information about the numbers in training and the opportunities which exist.

No, Sir. I see no need for this. Information about those entering apprenticeships is already collected on a national basis. Details of the opportunities in industry are know locally to the youth employment offices, and there is already a system for the circulation of vacancies between youth employment officers.

No doubt the Minister appreciates our need for a considerable increase in productivity in the engineering industry, but is he aware that many of the apprenticeship schemes are hopelessly inadequate to produce the engineers necessary for the new industries, and the new techniques appearing in modern engineering? Will he not, therefore, undertake a survey to find out how many of our industrial apprenticeships are worthy of the name and likely to turn out top-class skilled men?

As I think the hon. Gentleman knows, I am in sympathy with much that he says. As recently as our last debate on this subject in the House, I made it clear that I thought that the time had come when both sides of industry should look in detail at all their apprenticeships, and this is something that I shall certainly try to pursue with both sides of industry.

asked the Minister of Labour what methods are used by his Department to estimate the number of school-leavers who enter apprenticeships or some other form of organised training for skill.

At the time of issue of National Insurance cards to school leavers on their entering employment, a record of the class of employment is made for statistical purposes by the youth employment offices. One of the classifications is apprenticeship or learnership to a skilled craft; another, introduced from the beginning of this year, covers other forms of organised training for skill.

While thanking the Parliamentary Secretary for that reply, may I ask whether he appreciates that his Answer to Question No. 14 rather shattered our confidence in the customary reliability of his Department?

No. I think that the statistics are reasonably reliable. In fact, they probably understate the total entry of apprentices, as numbers of boys and girls enter into apprenticeships after previously having had other employment on leaving school.

Does the hon. Gentleman not recognise that his Department should be doing far more on the lines requested by my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock in his Question? As it is, it seems that he can only tell us of young people who take up apprenticeships 12 months after leaving school because they could not previously get into industry. Should not his Department be dealing with these school leavers earlier?

Instructions have recently been given to youth employment officers which strengthen the system so as to ensure that the statistics are as comprehensive as possible.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will increase the grant paid to the Industrial Training Council so as to enable that Council to make further appointments of training development officers in Scotland.

If the Council should wish to make further appointments, they can be made within the existing grant.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that not much is likely to result from one lonely soul wandering over Scotland trying to start these schemes, and that at the moment some of our more modern and highly-skilled engineering organisations cannot get apprentices and apprenticeship schemes going? Will the Minister be prepared to send representatives of both sides of industry to the Continent to see what properly organised apprenticeship schemes are doing to create skilled young men? Is he aware that the time has gone for training apprentices by making them "run the cutter" and taking betting-slips?

I really do not think that it is just one lone figure wandering over Scotland. The engineering and iron and steel industries have their own schemes, and certain other industries have their plans, in which Scotland is included. Of course, there is also the whole weight of the Industrial Training Council, which is pressing forward in its treatment of this problem. I do not think that the picture is as black as the right hon. Gentleman is suggesting.

Even so, are there only 10 full-time training development officers employed by the Industrial Training Council in the United Kingdom, of whom only one is stationed in Scotland? Does the Minister think that so small a number can possibly make the impact necessary for what will be needed in the next 10 years?

I was very clear in my Answer. In addition to the officers of the Industrial Training Council, other industries have their own training councils and are sharing in the general effort. Both sides of industry are taking part in the follow-up, which all reinforces the efforts of the officers of the Industrial Training Council.

asked the Minister of Labour what modifications will be imposed on the Scottish industrial development programme as a result of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's curtailment of Government expenditure.

My right hon. and learned Friend has announced no detailed plans for the curtailment of Government expenditure.

But, of course, is the Minister not aware that if the Question had been framed in that way it would not have reached the Order Paper, for it would have been hypothetical? Is the Minister telling us, then, that in his speech on Thursday night the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not make it perfectly clear that he proposes to reduce or to modify, if necessary, Government expenditure abroad? Is that untrue? Is it also untrue that the Chancellor made it perfectly clear that he proposes to restrict building schemes, and will that not affect Scottish industrial development programmes?

I admire the ingenuity of the hon. Gentleman in getting this Question on the Order Paper in the form he has. As far as the interpretation of my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor's speech is concerned, I would suggest that the Chancellor is available to be questioned on these matters in the House, and I feel sure that he would be able to give a better account than I could.

Ingenuity!

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will authorise the use of the vaccine to immunise cattle against Johne's disease now that the whole country is designated an attested area.

Much study is being made of immunisation as a method of controlling Johne's disease, but with the present state of knowledge it would not be wise to authorise the general use of vaccine against this disease while tuberculin testing is still a regular feature.

Has the Minister read the Answer which his predecessor gave to me on 7th July last year? If not, will he do so? If he has, will he bear in mind the losses incurred by farmers due to Johne's disease, and now that this country is an attested area as a whole, surely farmers should be allowed—those who wish to—to immunise their cattle against this disease?

I think that we would all be very glad if we could discover a vaccine which would be effective against Johne's disease without having a bad effect and creating more difficulties in the testing for tuberculosis, which still has to continue even though the country as a whole is clear. We have still to protect ourselves against T.B. breaking out again, and if we could find a suitable vaccine—and there are experiments going on in 350 farms at the moment—we would be glad to go forward on it.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether in view of the low prices prevailing for barley, he will take steps to make an advanced deficiency payment for the 1961 crop at harvest time.

No, Sir. It would not be practicable to make advance deficiency payments to barley growers at harvest time. But I am well aware of the importance to growers of these payments and they will be made as early as possible.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that if the low prices for barley continue as at present the orderly marketing of this year's crop will be quite impossible. Small farmers depend enormously on the cash that they obtain at harvest time from barley. If prices are going to be as low as we think they will, farmers will not get this cash and the only satisfactory alternative will be to place an embargo on cheap subsidised imports coming in.

That is a different question and concerns our attitude towards importation. Concerning our own marketing, we have certain proposals that have been agreed with producer interests which, we hope, will make a contribution towards the more orderly marketing at home.

Will the Minister use all his persuasive powers around the Cabinet table, with the President of the Board of Trade, to ensure that we take quick and effective measures to stop the dumping of foreign barley.

As my hon. Friend knows, an application was submitted by the National Farmers' Union to the Board of Trade exactly a week ago today on this matter, and it is, I know, receiving the close attention of my right hon. Friend.

Does the Minister remember that at least six months ago we were warning him of a possible disaster in barley and asking him to call an international conference of exporters? Will he not now please call that conference, because it is better late than never.

An international conference is a different question to that on the Order Paper and that contained in the supplementary questions to it. It raises many difficult problems—of which, I am sure, the hon. Gentleman is fully aware—and it would not be efficacious if we were merely to have a conference of exporters. Importers would have to be represented as well, and there are no signs in the international field that support for that would be forthcoming

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will state the number of acres drained under drainage grants during the last year; and whether he is satisfied with the rate of progress.

In 1960, farm under-drainage schemes benefited some 110,000 acres. Information about the total acreage benefitting from all drainage work is not available. I can, however, tell my hon. Friend that grant-aid from the Department towards farm drainage schemes rose from £1⅔ million in 1958–9 to nearly £2½ million in 1959–60, and towards arterial drainage schemes from £2¾ million to £3⅓ million. This is good progress, but there is still much work to be done.

If, as I am certain he does, the Joint Parliamentary Secretary wishes to help small farmers in the improvement of their farms, he will realise that good drainage is the basic essential of all good farming. Will he not consider an increase in the grant, from 50 per cent. to some higher figure, to encourage this further?

Of course, it is realised that good drainage is important for any farming, but 50 per cent. is a substantial proportion of the cost of the work involved, and I think that very good reasons would have to be put forward before we could consider increasing it.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the estimated cost of deficiency payments to the agricultural industries in respect of beef for the past six months.

The estimated cost of deficiency payments paid on fat cattle for the 26 weeks ended 3rd June, 1961, is £12½ million.

Will my right hon. Friend not agree that this is a high total indeed? Is he aware that in a reply to me on 19th June the President of the Board of Trade stated that over £11½ million worth of beef was imported into this country in the first four months of this year? Will the Minister look into the question of these imports, which are causing farmers to receive a high subsidy? Surely it would be better to restrict imports and pay less subsidy to the farmers, who do not want so much.

Concerning the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question as to whether it is a large figure, it is, of course, a large figure, but it is less than 50 per cent. of the published estimate, adjusted after the Price Review, for the total deficiency payments for fat cattle. Concerning the second part about imports, in the last six months imports from abroad have been about 12 per cent. lower than for the same period last year, when the market at home was considerably higher.

Will the Minister talk to the butchers to see if he can stop them from averaging out prices of various commodities, such as beef and pork, so that we can get a true reflection of the falls in prices of beef to the consumer?

Of course, much averaging out goes on between different meats in the butchers' shops. It would be advantageous for the system as a whole if falls in the price of a certain type of meat were to be reflected in the retail price in such a way as to increase demand.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what further reports he has received from his veterinary officers in Argentina showing the progress of the Argentine Government's campaign to confine foot-and-mouth disease by compulsory vaccination; and if the measures so far taken have had any significant effect on the risk of infection being carried by chilled and frozen meat shipped to the United Kingdom.

It seems clear from reports by my veterinary officers in the Argentine that the Argentine Government's vaccination campaign against foot-and-mouth disease is making progress. Vaccination is said to have been completed in the buffer zone north of Patagonia, and in the province of La Pampa. In the province of Buenos Aires, from which most of the meat exported to this country is derived, about 80 per cent. of the cattle have been vaccinated. It is too early as yet to measure with any precision what has been the effect of this progress on the risk of infection being carried in meat shipped here from South America.

Does my right hon. Friend get the impression that this is really satisfactory progress and that the Argentine authorities are now really seriously tackling the problem of foot-and-mouth disease? Can the Minister say if any requests have been made to the research station at Pirbright for assistance in this matter?

Concerning the first part of my hon. Friends supplementary question, we all agree that considerable progress has been made in quite a short time in the Argentine. I cannot, however, answer the second part without notice.

Can the Minister say whether it is accepted that vaccination is now effective in this matter? Is he now prepared to authorise farmers in this country to use it?

There is no doubt that vaccination in a country the size of Argentine, with the number of outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease with which they have to contend—and the same applies in France—is most advantageous. But in a country such as ours, where the disease is not endemic and the number of outbreaks is comparatively small, by far the better means of control is slaughter, and that, indeed, is the point which many other countries would like to reach.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what arrangements exit whereby Government-financed plant-breeding stations make available their basic research results and material to plant breeders.

Research results are published in the reports of the institutes concerned and in appropriate scientific journals. The institutes are always ready to demonstrate their material, methods and results to plant breeders, to discuss problems and to give information and advice. Basic plant material which has been tested at the institutes is supplied to private plant breeders on request.

While wishing to draw my right hon. Friend's attention to the co-operation that exists, may I ask him to make sure that viruses and diseases are also available at Government plant breeding establishments for private breeders?

I think I can assure my hon. Friend that we try to be as helpful and co-operative as possible, and, as far as disease-resistant cereals material is concerned, it is hoped that more will be released this autumn.

Would the hon. Gentleman not agree that this matter should perhaps be considered in the wider aspect of the Report of the findings of the Engholm Committee?

I hope my right hon. Friend will be able to make a statement on that shortly.