asked the Minister of Education if he will promote an official inquiry into the values or defects of the co-education system in England and Wales.

The general arguments for and against co-education are well known. I have on more than one occasion considered whether to set up an inquiry to investigate this controversial issue, but I found it impossible to establish criteria on which to compare the merits of the two types of school.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that many parents in certain districts resent very much the fact that they have no choice of a single-sex school for their children? Does not he think that such an inquiry would, in effect, give them very good official and expert guidance on the advantages or disadvantages of teaching boys and girls together?

I quite agree that parents differ. Some want one and some the other. But I cannot see how I could give them really useful guidance, because the criteria are so difficult to establish.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the question of the values or defects in the co-education system is almost entirely dependent upon the location of the schools? For example, one in my constituency would be very welcome.

No doubt the location is an important point.

asked the Minister of Education how many local education authorities organise a school museums service; what is the total expenditure thereon; and what contribution is made from central Government sources towards this.

In this service there is great variety of provision, and up-to-date information will become available when the survey of local museums and art galleries now being conducted by the Standing Commission on Museums and Galleries is complete. Expenditure by local education authorities on this service is relevant expenditure for general grant purposes.

I believe that the right hon. Gentleman is very interested in this field. He was certainly very helpful in the case of Durham when it started such a service. Would the right hon. Gentleman undertake to give some encouragement to this kind of activity throughout the school service either by means of publications or by encouraging the authorities generally?

Yes, Sir. I think that this is a very good service, but since the information is lacking now and is being gathered, I thought I had better wait until it had come to hand.

asked the Minister of Education if he will state the number of secondary technical schools in England and Wales up to the end of June, 1961.

There are 228 secondary technical schools maintained by local education authorities in England and Wales.

Would not the Minister agree That, in view of the economic challenge of Soviet Communism and, indeed, of the Common Market—if we remain outside—technical education should be the No. 1 priority? Has the right hon. Gentleman any plans for increasing the number of technical schools?

I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the importance of technical education, but many local education authorities prefer to give this in secondary modern schools rather than in secondary technical schools. I would rather leave to them that freedom of choice.

asked the Minister of Education if, to assist the Robbins Committee, he has now called for evidence as to the number of grammar school boys and girls who desire admission to a university this year, and have the necessary qualifications, but have not yet secured admission; and if, when these facts are obtained, he will publish them immediately.

I understand that the Committee will itself be making inquiries on these matters with the co-operation of the statistical and other services of the Government. Publication of the facts it collects will be a matter for the Committee.

asked the Minister of Education when he expects to receive the reports of the two Working Parties set up to examine the technical implications of the recommendations of the Roberts Report in regard to the basic requirements for an efficient public library service and inter-library co-operation.

I hope that the Working Party on inter-library co-operation will be able to report by the end of the autumn, but I do not expect to receive the report of the other Working Party until early next year.

In view of the fact that any legislation in this field is dependent on the findings of these two Working Parties, and having regard to the long delay since the original recommendations of the Roberts Committee were before the Government, will the right hon. Gentleman do everything he can to expedite this matter?

Yes, I certainly hope that the studies will be completed as soon as possible, but Working Party No. 2 has found the need to collect a great deal of information.

asked the Minister of Education what action has been taken by his Department upon the reports of Her Majesty's inspectors which comment adversely on the accommodation provided in individual schools.

I send these reports to the authorities responsible for the schools and I take into account the views of Her Majesty's inspectors when considering building proposals.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of these reports call attention to the inadequacy of school accommodation—inadequacy with which the local authority is unable to deal because of the inadequacy of the Minister's permitted building programme? While Her Majesty's inspectors say "Forward", the Minister continually says "Backwards".

I think that is somewhat unfair. Of course, we want the inspectors to point out all these deficiencies. That is the purpose of a full inspection report. But, at the same time, we are steadily increasing the annual totals of the building programme.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that in some cases these building defects have been pointed out time and again over several years? What action does the right hon. Gentleman propose to take, for instance, to help local authorities to remedy some of these serious defects and to push them into doing so if they refuse to take notice of the report?

A local authority has a minor works allocation which it spends as it thinks fit on the projects most urgent. The best way that I can help local authorities is to see that they complete the building programmes which we give them.

asked the Minister of Education why the Secondary School Examinations Council is not prepared to approve an examination in the General Certificate of Education in Engineering Workshop Theory and Practice at A level, for which there is a specific demand in technical high schools, whilst the Council has already approved an examination in advanced metalwork.

The Council lays down certain criteria about the scope and content of secondary school studies than can appropriately be examined in the G.C.E. examinations. The syllabuses so far submitted in engineering workshop theory and practice at Advanced level have not satisfied these criteria.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the present position is illogical? Will he direct the Secondary School Examinations Council to look at this whole matter again? Would he also ascertain the views of the headmasters of the higher technical schools?

I cannot see how the position can be described as illogical. It is clear that an examination which puts too much emphasis on craft skills and too little on the educational content will not do far.the A-level G.C.E.

Surely it is illogical to include advanced metalwork and not to include engineering theory?

We should like an examination in this subject but the syllabus must match up to the require-menu of the A-level G.C.E.

asked the Minister of Education whether he will now announce the qualifications required for the status of qualified youth leaders; whether recommendations have yet been made by the Joint Negotiating Committee for Youth Leaders on salaries and conditions; if he will make a statement on these recommendations; and whether he will take steps to meet the urgent need for additional youth clubs in Leicester and elsewhere.

The qualifications are being published today in an Administrative Memorandum of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy. I understand that the recommendations on salaries and conditions will be made known tomorrow. I have already announced increased Youth Service building programmes for the years 1960–63, including nine projects submitted by the Leicester and Leicestershire local education authorities. Seven voluntary projects in these areas will also probably be included.

While appreciating the steps that have been taken by the Minister, may I ask whether he is aware of the necessity of having a more extensive programme than the one which he has already adumbrated, particularly in view of the fact that in a district like New Parks Estate, in Leicester, pressure is being brought to bear by the residents to provide three or four centres instead of one? Will the right hon. Gentleman realise that this matter is very urgent and will he make a statement on it before the Recess?

I am sorry that I am not familiar with the actual details of the Leicestershire proposals, but I will look into them. We have very greatly increased the Youth Service building programme and, to the best of my knowledge, it is about as big as it can be.

asked the Minister of Education what the response has been to his advice that local authorities should consult with voluntary organisations in preparing their 1962–63 programme for expansion of the Youth Service.

The majority of local education authorities have responded well and there is evidence of increasing willingness to consult and co-operate at the local level.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is estimated that only 50 per cent. of the local authorities have, in fact, consulted so far and that the considerable enthusiasm aroused among the voluntary organisations by the Albemarle Report will be frustrated if they feel that they are not getting a fair share of the increased sums made available to the Youth Service?

I agree that the co-operation between the local education authorities and the voluntary bodies is probably the most important thing that we now have to secure in the Youth Service. On the second part of the supplementary question, the £¾ million worth of capital work which the voluntary bodies are doing appears to be just about as much as they can or want to do in the near future.

asked the Minister of Education when he will issue a new Instrument of Government in respect of St. Olave's Grammar School; and whether it will provide for the Foundation Governors being all members of the Church of England.

The existing arrangement will remain in force till the new school in Orpington is ready in about five years' time. I will consult the Governors and the local education authority at a later stage over the Instrument for the new school, and I cannot say now precisely how the governing body will be composed.

Can the right hon. hon. Gentleman say what consultation there will be with the representatives of the Church of England about the future of the school?

Very close consultation.

asked the Minister of Education how soon he expects work to start on the new school building for St. Illtyd's College, Cardiff.

This project is planned to start in the year 1963–64. An earlier starting date will be arranged if opportunity offers.

Is the Minister aware that the architects have practically finished the drawings, and that the governors of the school are in touch with a firm of contractors who are willing to start work next February. Would the right hon. Gentleman be willing to accelerate the start to that date?

I should like an earlier starting date, but the authority must find a place in its programme for it. If such an opportunity occurs, we shall take it.

asked the Minister of Education what further financial help he proposes to give to assist in the preservation of the Temple of Abu Simbel.

As I explained to my hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Sir Richard Pilkington) on 4th February, 1960, the Government are not contemplating any contribution from public funds for this purpose.

Is the Minister aware that it is now clear that one of the most marvellous pieces of architecture in the ancient world can be saved from destruction by its being raised by engineers on the site? This work is extremely urgent, and will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider the question of the Government themselves making a grant towards the £20 million necessary for this and, even more important, of raising the matter with the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe, because action is so urgently needed?

I do not dispute that these temples are remarkable monuments, but if sums of money of this size were available, it should be remembered that there are so many children out of school in Africa that it would be Letter spent on them.

I have been to Abu Simbel and visited this temple. May I ask the Minister whether he will look carefully at the alternative schemes for preserving some of the features of the temple, which is unique? It owes its uniqueness largely to its siting, and to elevate it above the waters might result in it losing many of the qualities which it now possesses. Would the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to receive private representations on this subject?

I very much hope that alternative and less expensive schemes are put forward because under the proposed scheme, on our percentage contribution to the revenue of U.N.E.S.C.O., we should contribute nearly 5 million dollars, and we already have great responsibilities in Africa.

asked the Minister of Education if, in view of the fact that in most European countries education is not compulsory, until a child reaches the age of 6 years, he will consider making attendance at school optional until a child is 6 years old.

No, Sir. I do not think this proposal would be in the interests of the children or welcomed by their parents.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are some parents who are genuinely concerned about their children's individual needs and that this might be worth looking at again, instead of brushing it off quite as lightly as he appears to have done?

I can assure my hon. Friend that the age at which children go to school is not a light matter at all but is one about which we often think with great care.

Will the Minister consider whether it is not desirable that parents who feel strongly about this matter should have discretion to keep a child under 6, but over 5, at home in the afternoons so that the start to school is not quite as sharp and absolute as it is at present? Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that this is the practice at a large number of private schools to which children aged 5 are sent?

My hon. Friend is quite right in saying that the organisation of the school day is something that is always worth looking at, and I will bear the point in mind.

asked the Minister of Education if his attention has been drawn to the overcrowded conditions in the Bourne End Primary School; and if, in view of the large influx of families with young children into the district, he will include the building of a new school in the 1962–63 programme.

I am aware of the difficulties of this school and I am including a new building for the infants in the provisional 1963–64 programme.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him whether he is aware that the amount of building in the area has been increasing rapidly over recent months? Could he not find it possible to bring the new building forward into the 1962–63 programme?

The 1962–63 programme is already full up.

asked the Minister of Education what factors have caused the fall over the past few years in the rate of net increase in the number of full-time teachers in maintained and assisted schools.

The number of new appointments has continued to rise. The fall in the net increase since 1956 is due to more women teachers leaving to get married or to look after their children.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that this increase in wastage is presenting very real difficulties and is likely to be aggravated in the next few years when we have wastage not only at the lower age level but at the higher age level, too? In view of this, will the right hon. Gentleman revise his estimates of the number of teachers required?

I do indeed realise that the wastage is very serious, but I cannot answer the second part of the supplementary question without notice.

Can my right hon. Friend say how many of the married teachers who left the service have come back and taken temporary places?

We have recruited about 2,200 married women since the campaign began at the beginning of the year.

Does the Minister realise that the relevant figure is the figure of the net increase and that this is the figure to which we have got to pay attention? If this is falling year by year, had not the right hon. Gentleman better revise his estimates of the number of teachers required?

This is a very difficult and complicated calculation which experience in the past has shown we never get right, and I therefore require a little time.

asked the Minister of Education why the number of entrants to maintained and direct grant grammar schools is being reduced by 27,000 during the period 1958–62.

The estimate fur entrants to grammar schools which I gave the hon. Member on 5th July was based on the assumption that the grammar schools would take about the same proportion of each age group as they did in the earlier years. The size of the age groups is temporarily going down but local education authorities and school authorities will not necessarily choose to keep exactly the same proportion of grammar school entrants.

Will the right hon. Gentleman change his attitude? Surely we ought to take this opportunity of getting more children into the grammar schools. What has the right hon. Gentleman got against the grammar schools? Surely because the age groups have fallen we ought to see that advantage is taken of sending children into the grammar schools and allowing them to have the benefit of grammar school education. Will the right hon. Gentleman press this upon local authorities?

The hon. Gentleman may not be aware that in January last 11,000 classes in grammar schools were over-size. If it is thought better to get rid of some of those over-size classes I should not intervene.

asked the Minister of Education what proposals have been made by the Cornwall Education Committee for building projects in Falmouth, Cornwall, for 1963–64.

None for 1963–64, but the local education authority has asked for a new grammar school for Falmouth in the 1964–65 programme. I can give no decision on this yet.

Will the Minister bear in mind that a new grammar school is badly needed in Falmouth because both of the existing schools have most inadequate accommodation? Will he also take into account that improvements are badly needed at the technical college? The fact that these have been delayed has caused serious unrest among th 3,000 trade unionists in Falmouth. Will he consider that point, too?

I was glad to have a chance to hear about these difficulties when I was in Cornwall last week-end.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that practically every Question that he has answered today has asked him to spend more money? Will he bear in mind that we are facing an economic crisis—[Interruption.]

Order. That question is too wide of the Cornwall Education Committee's programme for 1963–64.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what consultations his Department has had with the institutions of higher education in this country regarding the availability of suitable lodgings for students coming from the Colonial Territories under official schemes.

The British Council is responsible to my Department for assisting recommended students from the dependent territories to find suitable living accommodation in the United Kingdom. The Council's Overseas Students Department in London and its area offices in the provinces maintain close and continuous touch with the educational institutions on this matter.

While paying tribute to the work that the British Council does in this matter, may I ask if the right hon. Gentleman is aware that there is increasing concern about the number of occasions when overseas students have experienced colour prejudice in seeking accommodation? Will he do all he can, in association with his colleagues, to try to prevent this sort of occurrence?

Yes, naturally, the British Council does splendid work in this field, and the Government have shown their understanding of the problem by the recent announcement they made of the increased hostel places.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has yet completed his investigations into the murder of the mother and sister of Zachariah Mbuthia at Molo, Kenya, on 5th March, 1961; and if he will inform the House of the result of his investigations.

I am obliged to my right hon. Friend for pointing out that the murdered woman was Zachariah Mbuthia's mother, not his wife. I am sorry to have misinformed the House on this.

Monica Wambui, Mbuthia's sister, who was injured in the attack and who is the main witness in the case, was discharged from hospital some three weeks ago. She has now made a fresh statement to the police and investigations are continuing.

During their inquiries the police discovered that a letter produced by Mbuthia in support of his claim to have been threatened was written by himself. He has since been convicted and sentenced to eighteen months' imprisonment by the resident magistrate, Nakuru, for giving false information to the police and forgery.

Does not this case illustrate the difficulties experienced by the security forces in the prevention and detection of crime perpetrated by Mau Mau? Will my right hon. Friend confirm that not only this man but a man named David Mwai was threatened after the political meeting and before the murder, and that they have both had to have police protection; further, that the charge which relates to him occurred some weeks later when this man, in terror, tried by means of a forged instrument to get out of the danger area?

I should not like wholly to agree with all, the points that my right hon. Friend has made. I said when I spoke earlier that one cannot exclude, because one knows so little about this, the question of political motive, but I should have thought that the evidence for it is considerably reduced by the fact that the threatening letter in the case has now been discovered to have been written by the man himself.

On a point of order. Do we not understand that there are police investigations continuing in this matter? Without knowing anything of the details, ought we not to be pretty careful about making ex parte statements when the matter is still under investigation?

The matter is in order unless it is sub judice in the strict sense. I do not know enough about the facts, but I know of nothing against raising the matter.

Can the right hon. Gentleman make it quite clear that the forged letter appeared four weeks after the threats that were alleged and had no connection either with the murder or with the investigation?

No, I do not wholly agree with that, because the letter that was produced was produced by this man in evidence to substantiate the allegation of threats, and it was subsequently found to have been written by himself.

On a point of order. Would it not be improper to permit further questions in view of the fact that the Minister takes the view that these matters may be related?

That does not arise, because I am not proposing to permit further questions.

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I have no doubt—

Order.

I am on a point of order, and I propose to stay on it, whether the hon. and gallant Member likes it or not. Mr. Speaker, there may be attempts to put further Questions down, whether you propose to allow further supplementary questions at this stage or not. Although I have no desire to stop anybody asking a Question, I put it to you, Sir, that there is a case here where there is the possibility of further charges being made, and we ought to protect the man concerned, no matter whether he be a villain or not, in order that he may have a fair trial.

I am greatly obliged to the hon. Gentleman for his assistance. If Questions are put down, I shall consider them in accordance with the rules of the House, and I shall take steps to obtain such information as I can which I would require to ensure that I did not infringe any sub judice rule in ruling about those matters.

I wish to raise a further point of order on this matter, Mr. Speaker. I am anxious to assist the Chair in this case. This Question which was put down could, in my view, from the little knowledge I have of the facts, bring us into conflict with the ancient rule of the House that we do not discuss matters which are or which may well become sub judice. The very fact that the Minister has himself said that he does not wholly agree with the allegations made by his right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) leads us into that position.

I have no desire to be disrespectful to you, Sir, and I hope that, likewise, you will feel that I am trying to do my best to protect this man and not come into conflict with his interests.

I have no doubt that the hon. Gentleman is seeking to assist. I do not accept, because I cannot now, the statement of the rule in the form in which he then stated it, but I beg to assure the House and the hon. Gentleman that I shall proceed carefully about this and other matters which raise any question of the application of the rule.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps he will take to compensate British farmers and other settlers who originally went to Kenya in response to inducements from Her Majesty's Government, who now wish to emigrate from Kenya and settle elsewhere because of current political and economic developments.

Her Majesty's Government are not contemplating the payment of compensation to British farmers and other settlers who now wish to emigrate from Kenya. They recognise, however, the importance of ensuring, so far as is practicable, that those who wish to sell their property can do so in a market which offers a reasonable price. To this end, Her Majesty's Government are supporting settlement schemes involving a substantial injection of money into the land market.

No doubt at some appropriate moment the Colonial Secretary would like to give further details of these settlement schemes, where they are, and what they involve, but is not he aware that there are many other Europeans, apart from the farmers, who were induced to go to Kenya who are now in a very difficult position indeed? Secondly, is it not reasonable to do something of a financial nature for people who, to put it crudely, were in one way or another bribed to go out to Kenya—some of them not so long ago—by substantial inducements and who are now in a very difficult position?

No. I believe that such an approach would have very unfortunate effects for the European community in Kenya. There seem to be two problems. Those who wish to stay—they are, I believe, the overwhelming majority—wish to see that their title is secure. This applies to Africans as well as to Europeans. As the House knows, I hope to start talks on those matters. Second, those who wish to go would, naturally, like to be able to sell. I believe that Her Majesty's Government are pursuing a right policy in putting forward very considerable sums of money which will have the effect of helping the land market.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what will be the cost to public funds of the house now being built in Kenya for Mr. Jomo Kenyatta.

The estimated cost is £2,800.

First, is it not a ridiculous situation that the man who, everybody knows, will be the dominating African politician in the area very shortly should be confined to his house, although he is allowed to receive consuls and other visitors, and that the house should be built at public expense? What kind of government is this? Secondly, are there not hundreds of other detainees who have lost their homes and all they have, just as much as Mr. Kenyatta? What is being done for them?

For every person who is under a restriction, there is an obligation on the Kenya Government to provide accommodation. This does not differ for Mr. Kenyatta or for any other person. The house remains the property of the Kenya Government.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he now proposes to set Jomo Kenyatta free.

The position of Jomo Kenyatta remains as indicated in the Governor's statement of 1st March.

But is it not the case that Mr. Kenyatta is now playing an effective part in Kenya politics, that he is being quite regularly consulted by a number of politicians of both parties, and, in view of that, would not the right hon. Gentleman give his mind to this problem again, and not just claim that what is happening now with Mr. Kenyatta shows the freedom which he has in exile? Would he realise that freedom in exile is not freedom?

Of course, it is true that Mr. Kenyatta has been seeing people. One of the last people to see him was my noble Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton), but it was made clear in the Governor's statement that it was part of the Government's policy that he should have increasingly wider contacts. On the general proposition, I have no statement to make.

Is the right hon. Gentleman confusing his noble Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton) with African politicians? It was to those that I was referring. Would he not think about that problem again?

I can assure the hon. Member that, whatever confusions I may have had, that is not one of them.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how much of the additional finance promised to the Kenya ministerial delegation during its recent visit to London has now been made available to the Kenya Government in the form of loan and grants, respectively.

A grant of £750,000 has already been issued to support the 1960–61 Budget. Grants for this year's budget and grants and loans for development will be issued when required.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the impression has been given that Her Majesty's Government have been very generous towards the Kenya Government, and that the facts do not support this? Is he aware that a serious crisis is threatened in Kenya, arising from unemployment, which will be worsened by the prospect of a bad harvest, and that a crisis programme is urgently needed to deal with it, as it might prove to be worse than the Mau Mau emergency? Will he look into the matter again?

I am sure that if the hon. Lady studies the figures, and, if she likes, I will send her complete breakdown, because this is a very complicated story, she will find that sums amounting to £10 million, as a result of the Ministerial delegation to London, have been put forward for Kenya's advance. They are now in the new financial year, and will call on this money as required.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what decision he has come to with regard to the Protectorate over the coastal strip in Kenya.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the replies which I gave him on 16th March and to which I have nothing to add.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that any transfer of sovereignty from the Protectorate to an independent Government in Kenya could be done only with the consent and approval of the Sultan of Zanzibar and that that is likely to be obtained only in the context of an East African Federation?

In the context of an East African Federation this and many other problems would be easier to solve. My hon. Friend is quite right. This is a matter for negotiation between the parties to the 1895 agreement.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what representations have been received from the Indian community in Northern Rhodesia concerning the reservation of a special constituency for Asian and coloured voters in the proposed new Constitution.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he has now been informed of the views of the political parties in Northern Rhodesia, with whose representatives the Governor consulted, on the proposed constitutional changes in that territory, and of organisations representing the Asian and Coloured communities.

I have received certain representations from representatives of the Asian community in Northern Rhodesia in opposition to the proposals and am awaiting a further memorandum which I understand they propose to submit. I have also noted criticisms of the Constitution from a variety of quarters in the territory—by no means in agreement among themselves. I consider that the proposals deserve more careful consideration on their merits than they appear so far to have received, and I have noted with interest suggestions made by some political parties that there should be joint consultations in the territory on the present situation.

Why did the Secretary of State introduce this proposal in the first place, when those concerned are against being segregated on a separate roll? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a widely held suspicion that the proposal was brought in in order to separate the Asian and coloured voters and assist the United Federal Party in the coming elections? Will he undertake, in the consultations which are to take place, to reconsider whether he ought to abandon the proposal as a result of which he has so far sacrificed a good deal of good will?

On the political effects of it, I have received diametrically opposed viewpoints from different politicians of different races in Northern Rhodesia. I do not pretend to know how it will work. I think that the proposal deserves very careful consideration. It seems to me convenient, if there is a fifteenth seat, that it should be used for this purpose. Otherwise, the Asian population in particular would not be represented. Naturally, we shall consider the views that they have put forward. I must make the point that, when I made the announcement, I did not know the point of view of the Asian community because I made the announcement first to the House.

The Secretary of State has answered Question No. 21 with Question No. 20, but in his Answer he has dealt only with the attitude of the Asian community. My Question asks about the views of the political parties on the proposed constitutional changes in the territory. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the very deep concern felt, honestly, with a great deal of sympathy for the right hon. Gentleman, about the situation in Northern Rhodesia and the tragic situation which may develop among the African population as well as the Asian population unless these fatal constitutional proposals are changed?

Obviously, I did not regard them as fatal; otherwise, I should never have dreamed of putting them forward. My Answer was intended to cover the attitude of the political parties. No formal representations have been received from the political parties. A number of members of political parties have expressed views, particularly on the proposal regarding Asians, and there is disagreement within the political parties in Northern Rhodesia on the merits or otherwise of the proposals which have been made.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why the Acting Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Rhodesia failed to attend the hearing in the Broken Hill magistrates' court of a preliminary inquiry into the alleged responsibility of the European manager of the farm of Mr. John Roberts and of another employee for the death of Chilekwa Lufeye in April last; and if he will make a statement about this case.

The Acting Director of Public Prosecutions appeared on three occasions before the magistrate but on one day of the hearing he was engaged in the High Court and on that day he was represented by the Public Prosecutor. The Governor reports that the resident magistrate has ruled that there is a case to answer against each of the two accused on a charge of manslaughter and, as the case is consequently sub judice, I can make no statement about it.

Is the Colonial Secretary aware that the presiding magistrate publicly criticised the non-appearance of the Acting Director of Public Prosecutions?

Further, is he aware that in the past there have been many murders and brutal attacks by farm managers on farm workers? Does he agree—I am sure he will—that the relatives of the dead man link these events with the fact that the farm is owned by an individual who is a territorial leader of the United Federal Party in the area? Does not the Secretary of State think that he should do what he can to clear this matter up in order not to worsen the feelings which are so evident in this area as a result of these conditions?

I think that that is a very tendentious way of putting this matter. I see no reason at all why it should be linked with the politician to whom the hon. Member refers. It seems a very poor charge against the Acting Director of Public Prosecutions that he was not there on a day when the Public Prosecutor himself was. Although there may be argument about whether the matter we were discussing on Question No. 19 was sub judice, there can be no argument about this one.

As the only person named in the Question is a leader of a political party, will my right hon. Friend make it quite clear that he is in no way involved in this case and was not and is not resident on the farm in question?

Yes, I know those two facts, but I do not want to be led into commenting on this case, in view of the discussion we had a few minutes ago.

All of us who know Mr. John Roberts, whatever our political views, would not believe that he would be a party to obstructing the course of justice in a matter of this sort.

rose—

Next Question.

The next Question has not been called. I do not know how many Speakers there are. While I have no knowledge of Mr. John Roberts, but know that he is non-resident, I take it that legally he is responsible for the actions of the farm manager.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies under what regulations twenty-nine Africans were recently convicted for shouting, "Kwatcha" and "Freedom", in the northern province of Northern Rhodesia.

In the absence of specific details, the Governor's inquiries have failed to trace such incidents. Investigations into similar allegations in recent months have shown that prosecutions have been brought only where other serious criminal elements have been involved in the charges.

Would the Colonial Secretary agree that, if these regulations cause arrest for the chanting of party slogans, it is time that they were abolished? Will he not agree that this is quite undemocratic, and that repression of this kind will only lead to further difficulties?

Surely, the onus is on the hon. Member. He has put in a charge, like that in Question No. 24, that twenty-nine africans were recently convicted for shouting "Kwatcha". If he will produce evidence of that, I will look into it.

Hear, hear.

On a point of order. The Colonial Secretary has thrown out a challenge that I cannot prove this. My proof is—

The hon. Member cannot at Question Time make statements of fact, and, in any event, not in the guise of a point of order.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on his recent talks with Mr. Kenneth Kaunda concerning constitutional proposals for Northern Rhodesia.

No, Sir. As I informed the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Stonehouse) on 6th July, such meetings are private and confidential.

Has the Minister seen the long letter in the Guardian this morning from a visitor in Northern Rhodesia describing the suspicions spreading among Africans that the constitutional amendments are designed to favour one party against another rather than majority rule? Was the right hon. Gentleman able to give Mr. Kaunda any assurances to allay these suspicions?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman recognises that, if I attempted to answer that supplementary question, I should be breaking the confidential nature of these discussions. I have half-a-dozen discussions every day with people from many different Colonies, and I never issue statements on them except by agreement. Obviously I must keep to that in the House of Commons.

While we understand that, may I ask the Colonial Secretary whether it is not the case that Mr. Kenneth Kaunda, the African National Congress and the Liberal Party are extremely dissatisfied with the proposals and that the only body to which they seem to be acceptable is the present ruling Federal Party? Does the right hon. Gentleman think that he has discharged his duty when he can get no nearer to agreement than that?

It is a nice judgment in these matters. Northern Rhodesia has never succeeded in getting anywhere near agreement on any constitution. I fancy that there was more agreement on this than on any previous one

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what arrangements are being made for elections in Malta under the new Constitution.

The electoral laws are now being reviewed by the Governor for this purpose, and it is hoped that elections will take place before the end of 1961 or early in 1962.

Will my right hon. Friend look into the question of bringing up to date the method of compiling the electoral rôle, and, if possible, abolishing the system of voting certificates?

I think these matters are being examined. I hope in the few weeks' time to have the result of the Governor's review.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will invite a British High Court judge to conduct the inquiry into the recent riots that caused over 50 killed and 300 injured in Zanzibar.

I am considering the appointment of a suitable person with wide judicial experience, and hope to make an announcement shortly.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the emphasis here is on the word "British"? While not casting any aspersions on judges in East Africa, may I ask whether he is aware that there is a strong feeling that, in view of the calibre of the English Bench, there will be very great confidence if a British High Court judge is appointed, in view of the serious nature of the matters to be inquired into?

If the hon. Member will put down a Question, say, a week today, I am sure that I can give him the terms of reference, and I hope to be able to give him the name as well.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, in view of the fact that the Customs on the Bahamas are being serviced by personnel of the United States of America, what protection is afforded to British citizens where disagreements arise between United Kingdom nationals and United States officials.

This operates only for passengers going from the Bahamas to the United States, and passengers are perfectly at liberty to defer compliance with American Customs until their arrival in the United States if they wish.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that information, will he please answer the question about what happens to British subjects at the Customs? Is he aware that there is a feeling that America has almost absorbed the islands in the Caribbean, and that a little more British would be pleasant for British nationals there?

I think my hon. Friend is, in part, mistaken about this. The Bahamas Customs officials do examine, if they wish, the baggage on arrival or departure in the ordinary way, but, as a convenience—and many other countries, including Canada, for example, do this, too—if people are flying to the United States, they can get pre-clearance of their baggage in the Bahamas, which is a considerable convenience to everyone.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what recent proposals have been considered for adoption in respect of further constitutional developments in Aden Colony and the Protectorates; and whether these include closer administrative or other association between the two territories.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what recent decisions have been taken regarding the future of Aden and the Aden Protectorates; who represented Aden in the discussions beforehand; and what opportunity will be given to the people of Aden, or their elected representatives, to indicate their view of the decisions.

I had talks last week in London with delegations of Ministers from the Federation of Arab Amirates of the South and from Aden Colony.

No decisions were taken about constitutional changes, but it was agreed that there should be discussions in Aden next month, under the Governor's chairmanship, to evolve proposals for a further constitutional advance in the Colony and the establishment of a much closer link between the Federation and the Colony.

May I ask the Minister whether he does not personally agree that it is highly desirable to find some form of closer association between the 200,000 inhabitants of the Colony and the upwards of 800,000 in the Protectorates, in spite of the differing economies?

Can he also say whether the representatives he met last week are representatives not merely of those in the Federation but of all those in the two Protectorates?

To take the last point first, those whom I met last week were representatives only of the Federation and of the Ministers from the Colony. On the first point, I quite agree that closer association, provided that the peoples themselves desire it, would be a very good thing.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in view of the very critical nature of this area now, he will take steps so that any changes that are made are referred to the Legislature and are referred to the people, so that they may have their support? Is he not aware that there is a feeling that the people he saw in London last week are very restricted in their representative character?

I do not think I could accept that. Certainly, any proposals that we put forward would be in consultation, on the one side, with the Colony, and, on the other side, with representatives of the Federation.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what economic aid Her Majesty's Government propose to give to Tanganyika after it becomes independent; and how far he anticipates that the aid to be provided will enable the territory to fulfil its development plan for the next three years.

I have nothing to add at the present time to the statement on my discussions with the Tanganyika delegation given in Tuesday's OFFICIAL REPORT in answer to the hon. Member for Richmond (Mr. A. Royle).

Does that mean that the right hon. Gentleman is revising the proposals that he put to the Tanganyika delegation? Would it be appropriate for me to put down a Question next week? Would he be able to make a statement then?

I have not made any proposals public so that the right hon. Gentleman is, to some extent, taking me at a disadvantage. I hope to see Mr. Nyerere when he passes through this country next week on his way back from America. Perhaps it would be appropriate for the right hon. Gentleman to table a Question then.

Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to bear in mind that Tanganyika is the poorest of the three East African Territories, that it is giving a shining example of non-racialism and that it deserves well from this country?

I am certain that everyone in the House echoes that. We have had it very much in mind in our discussions.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what study he has made of the effect which Great Britain's entry into the Common Market would have upon the existing international agreements, the conflict of interests relating to fishing grounds and territorial waters and the catching and sale of fish by British fishing vessels.

The United Kingdom and the Common Market countries bordering the North Sea are all parties to existing Conventions dealing with such matters as fishery limits, the conduct of fishing operations, and conservation in this area. British entry into the Common Market would not affect these Conventions. I understand that the fisheries policy of the Common Market countries has not yet been settled, but they are substantial importers of fish and our exports might be expected to benefit accordingly if we entered.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the fishing industry has been thrown into chaos and disaster by the Government uncertainty on such matters as the Common Market, the conflict over territorial waters and farcical and insultingly inadequate subsidies? Will he state in detail whether he expects that entry into the Common Market will affect the fortunes of the fishing industry beneficially?

I am afraid that I cannot answer that. Like all other aspects, the fortunes of the fishing industry would be a matter for negotiation.

Would not the Minister agree that the more he studies this proposal for the United Kingdom to enter the Common Market, the mare convinced he is that it is just utter nonsense?

No, Sir.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement on the effect and consequences to the British fishing industry of the denunciation by the Soviet Government of the Anglo-Soviet Fisheries Agreement of 1956.

The effect of the denunciation is that after 12th March, 1962, British vessels would lose their right under the Agreement to fish up to three miles from the shore in two areas off the North Russian coast. This would involve their exclusion from a small but useful plaice fishery.

Does the Minister realise that this is another body blow at the British fishing industry? Will he state what plans he has to substitute some benefits to the fishing industry for the losses incurred by the denunciation of this agreement?

We are in touch with the Soviet Government, and we hope that they will be willing to discuss the situation with us.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will now state the composition of the Forestry Inquiry Committee; when it commenced its work; and when he expects its report.

I imagine the hon. Gentleman is referring to a Consultative Committee for the Northumberland Forest Villages.

In my reply to my hon. Friend, the Member for Hexham (Mr. Speir) of 18th May, I said that this Committee had been set up. I must apologise for the fact that this was not correct. The position is that the formation of the Committee on the lines I described had been agreed by all sides, but the details of the constitution and terms of reference are still being discussed with the local union representatives. I hope that these will be agreed at a meeting which is taking place tomorrow, so that the Committee can be constituted.

The Committee is intended to provide a continuing means of consultation between the Commission and its employees in the area on local problems. It is not a Committee of Inquiry and will not be charged with the duty of reporting.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what will be the cost to the Exchequer of supporting the price of barley during the current financial year.

The original estimate of the cost of the barley guarantee in the financial year 1961–62 was £37·8 million. This covers the final payments on the 1960 crop and the advance payments on the 1961 crop. The recent fall in market prices affected only late sales from the 1960 crop and so will not greatly affect the forthcoming final payment on that crop. The advance payment on the 1961 crop cannot yet be determined, but I do not at this point of time expect the cost of the barley guarantee for the current financial year to be greater than was originally estimated.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that that last piece of information is welcome? However, will he bear in mind that the recent massive influx of barley into this country has done a great deal to discredit the efficacy of the present anti-dumping policy? Will he ensure that, if the estimates prove larger than he thinks, it will not be attributed as barley subsidies to farmers?

With regard to antidumping legislation, I think that my hon. Friend will be aware that in this instance there were less than three weeks between the application being put in by the National Farmers' Union and the decision being taken by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade.