asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what are the rates of pay for Asian, African and European teachers, respectively, who hold similar qualifications in schools for which he is responsible in Northern Rhodesia.

In secondary schools, Africans and European teachers who hold similar qualifications receive the same rates of pay, within three salary scales ranging from £845 to £1,720 per annum. In primary schools there are only African teachers, whose salaries range from £180 to £815 per annum according to qualifications. No Asian teachers are employed.

Is the Secretary of State aware that at the official opening of the Prince Philip High School at Lusaka the President of the Northern Rhodesian Indian Association complained about difference in payment between different races? Will the right hon. Gentleman look into this matter with a view to correcting any anomalies that may exist?

The information which I have given the House, which, of course, comes from Northern Rhodesia, is that no Asian teachers are employed, but I will look up the reference to which the hon. Member has drawn my attention.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies to what extent he has reconsidered his plans for implementing the new constitution for Northern Rhodesia, in the light of the opposition expressed by Asians and Africans in that territory.

I will, of course, consider all representations made to me, but I have nothing to add to the reply which I made to the hon. Members for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) and for Dundee, East (Mr. G. M. Thomson) on 13th July.

Does the Colonial Secretary really think that the bitterness of tension—I use these words advisedly—which is being expressed and which is growing in Northern Rhodesia creates a likely climate in which his proposed constitution can succeed? Does he not see that it would be far better for him to reconsider these proposals in order to get a larger measure of agreement than to allow the existing situation to deteriorate as it is doing?

With respect, I do not think that that is so. The matter upon which most comment has centred has been the provision of an Asian representative, which is a matter which I should like to discuss and perhaps later shall have an opportunity of discussing. The hon. Member knows that there are many territories which have welcomed such a provision, and I think that we ought to look at that idea and other ideas which have been presented on their merits. They may probably command wider support than the hon. Member thinks.

I certainly hope so. How does the Colonial Secretary propose to remove the widely held view that his proposals have been made in a way which will ensure the victory of one party before the election is held?

I simply do not believe that anyone who really calculates for a moment the effects of the equalising of the rolls, where the Africans have almost every vote in the lower roll and something like 10 per cent. or 11 per cent. In the upper roll, can possibly come to that conclusion.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the really important thing is to secure some stability in Northern Rhodesia, at any rate for the time being? Is not it a case of the sergeant-major's dictum, "Right or wrong, stand still", at any rate for the time being?

Has the right hon. Gentleman read the reports in the Press today about the very disturbing situation in Northern Rhodesia? Has he seen that the Council of Churches has asked the Governor to reconsider the present constitutional proposals? Is he aware of our deep concern about conditions there which may lead to an appalling situation unless the constitutional proposals are changed?

Of course I am closely informed and, I like to think, well informed about what is happening in Northern Rhodesia. I am well aware of the criticisms which are made. On the other hand, I think that there would have been more criticism of almost any other course of action than the one which I have put forward. This may be optimistic, but I believe that if one makes a more careful study of the proposals than I consider the initial reactions indicate has been made, they will be seen in full and in their true light.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will consider the setting up of a development corporation for the smaller islands of the Federation of the West Indies to encourage private investment in these territories.

A Federal Development Loan and Guarantee Fund came into operation last January with a capital of over 8 million B.W.I. dollars provided by Her Majesty Government, the United States Government and local funds. This fund is designed to stimulate activity in the private investment sector throughout the Federation with special emphasis on small and medium sized enterprises. This I hope will be of especial benefit to the smaller islands.

While welcoming the information that the Minister has given and also the fact that he has arranged for an economic mission to go to the smaller islands shortly, may I ask him if he will bear in mind that the Federation which is about to be set up as an independent country has minimal powers of central economic planning? It is very important that the smaller islands should go into this independent Federation not only with equal political powers but as near equal economic powers as possible. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Trinidad and Jamaica set up their own development corporations, and will he do his best to persuade the economic mission which is going out to set up a comparable development corporation for the smaller islands?

I think that it should be based on the Federation as a whole. It should have a federal backing. I will certainly draw to the attention of the people concerned the point which the hon. Gentleman raises about these smaller islands.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on the recent citrus negotiations with a delegation from the West Indies.

My hon. Friend is no doubt referring to the current negotiations between the Ministry of Health and the West Indian delegation for the supply of concentrated orange juice required for the welfare food service in 1961–62. These negotiations are still in progress. There have been no general negotiations with the West Indies on citrus since 1959.

More particularly as negotiations are still in progress, would my hon. Friend agree that West Indian production, especially of orange juice from British Honduras, is now running at a very high level—so high that it cannot readily be disposed of? In the interests both of the economy of the West Indies and of the health of the children of Britain, would my hon. Friend make representations to his right hon. Friend the Minister of Health that he should give the maximum publicity to the availability of this concentrated orange juice for all children under five as a very good and rather cheap source of vitamin C?

Yes, I thank my hon. Friend.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will now make a statement regarding the release of Jomo Kenyatta from restrictions in Kenya.

I have nothing to add to my reply to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) on 13th July.

Is not the refusal to liberate Kenyatta really obstinate resistance to what is an early inevitability? Is it not the case that the Government, Legislature, all the African parties, including the African Loyalists during the emergency, and the European, Arab, Asian and religious leaders are all pressing for his release as a condition of the unity and stability of Kenya?

Of course, it is true that many people of different races have been calling for this and pressing for it for some time. I have no wish to appear obstinate in this matter. I have a duty to fulfil, and so has the Governor. We will discharge that in the best way we can, and I will inform the House as soon as possible of any decision.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the release of a man whom the Governor quite recently described as the leader to darkness and death at a time when violence and oath-taking is on the increase would cause grave concern to many people both in Kenya and in this country?

It is, of course, the security aspect of the matter that is in the minds of the Governor and myself. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will read the whole of the statement from the Governor to which he refers.

Will my right hon. Friend have carefully in mind the fact that millions of people would regard the release of this gentleman as an affront to the conscience of the free world?

Can the Colonial Secretary give us any guidance as to how far the last statement was accurate? Is public opinion in Kenya in favour of or against the release of Kenyatta?

I am in no position, nor is anybody in the House, to judge on the first part of that supplementary question. As for the last part, as I indicated in my first supplementary answer, it is unquestionably true that in all races and all communities there has been a considerable change of thought on this matter quite recently.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what representations he or the Government of Kenya have received on behalf of Asian civil servants employed in Kenya regarding their future conditions and prospects of service, more particularly after independence; and what reply he has returned.

I have received a number of such representations, mainly from the Clerical and Allied Civil Servants' Association of Kenya, on which I am in close consultation with the Governor of Kenya and with the other East African Governors and Administrations.

Will the Minister bear in mind that many of these civil servants are not in fact expatriates and that Kenya is the only home which they have known? Will he carefully consider any further representations which he may receive from them?

I have made it clear that if after local consultations they wished to make representations direct to me in London, I should receive them.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what reply Her Majesty's Government have sent, or propose sending, to the recommendation by the Kenya Legislative Council for an amendment of the section of the Kenya Constitution Order in Council which prevents persons who have been imprisoned for more than two years from entering the Legislature.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the recommendation of the Kenya Legislative Council, that the Kenya Constitution Order in Council shall be amended to permit people imprisoned for more than two years to enter the Legislature, has his approval.

The Governor has forwarded the resolution in question for the consideration of Her Majesty's Government. I will examine the record of the debate on it in the Kenya Legislative Council when available. Thereafter I shall consider, in consultation with the Governor, what action, if any, should be taken.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that it is entirely contrary to our British Parliamentary tradition that those who have served their sentences should afterwards be subjected to any form of civil disability?

Although some features of this Kenya Restrictive Ordinance are unique in the Commonwealth, it is by no means unique in the Colonial Territories to have some form of disqualification.

Is the Minister aware that this amendment will permit Jomo Kenyatta to assume the leadership of the Government in Kenya? In view of the detestation in which this ex-convict is held in this country, will he do his best to resist it?

The Motion which was passed by the Legislative Council in Kenya does not go quite as far as the form of the Question and supplementary questions indicates. All this is a matter of the first importance which the Government would like to consider carefully.

Has the Colonial Secretary calculated how many Prime Ministers in the Commonwealth would be excluded from their Legislatures if this legislation were generally applied?

While acknowledging what my right hon. Friend said in reply to an earlier Question, that undoubtedly there has been a notable change of opinion in Kenya about the future of Kenyatta, is not the important thing to see that nothing is done which will endanger the growth of stable Government there? Is not that what matters to the people of that country?

I entirely agree, and that must be the first consideration in all decisions which the Governor and I have to take.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when the Governor of Kenya will start talks with the political parties and representative organisations on the problem of land titles for European and African farmers holding land from the Crown; and if Her Majesty's Government will be prepared to support the establishment of an impartial and broad-based Kenya Land Corporation to take over the responsibilities of the Crown, facilitate the transfer of land on fair terms and administer for the benefit of all Kenya farmers the promised development finance from outside sources.

The Governor hopes that the parties and groups concerned will be ready to start talks under his Chairmanship soon. As regards the second part of the Question, I am sure that, as my hon. Friend implies, the machinery required to administer the re-settlement programme should be designed to attract effective support from those concerned. If a proposal of the kind he has in mind should emerge from the forthcoming talks, Her Majesty's Government would be prepared to consider it.

Will the Minister confirm that the Government here recognise a responsibility to see that the tenants of the Crown in Kenya, both European and African, can continue sure in the title to the land which they now farm? May I take it from what he said in reply to the second part of the Question that if a proposition such as this Kenya Land Corporation is put to him from Nairobi he will be prepared to give it a fair wind and perhaps some financial backing to get it started?

Obviously I should have to look at the terms in which a proposal for a Kenya Land Corporation were put forward. My answer was designed to make it clear that I am not closing the door to that sort of solution but would be very ready to study it if one emerged. I think that the key to this matter is security of title, and that is why I think it essential that these talks should start. I hope that they will succeed.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many teachers have been recruited for the East African territories of Tanganyika, Uganda and Kenya from the United States of America and the United Kingdom, respectively, as a result of the decisions taken at the recent Princeton conference in which his Department participated.

One hundred and fifty graduates from the United States and eight graduates from the United Kingdom. After a period of training at Makerere, they will supplement the large numbers of African, Asian and British teachers already at work in East African secondary schools and will, I am sure, make a valuable contribution in this important field.

While welcoming this expression of practical American idealism, and while agreeing on the contribution already made in this area by existing British teachers, is not the British response to this disgracefully inadequate, and will not the Minister make a serious effort with the authorities in this country and with the universities to make sure that we in this country match the kind of response which we have had from America?

I do not think that that is entirely fair. We were asked for only ten teachers in this scheme, as agreed with the Americans. We are already recruiting several hundred teachers for our colonial possessions, and we hope that more Commonwealth teachers will come forward in the near future. There is, moreover, a campaign by the National Council for the Supply of Teachers Overseas, which is already having some effect.

Does not the Minister agree that in the years which lie ahead it will be very important that we in this country match the kind of contribution which America can make in this educational field? Does he not agree that we do not want to see a situation in which the overwhelming number of expatriate teachers come from the United States and not from this country?

I agree, but we are already making a very big contribution.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what submissions were made to him by representatives of the political parties of Mauritius whom he consulted recently in London on the proposed constitutional changes in that territory.

The submissions were confidential and I cannot disclose them.

Did the largest party, the Labour Party, ask for early responsible Government, with a Prime Minister, and for independence within two years? What were the reasons for not accepting those proposals?

Obviously, I cannot go into detail or it would make nonsense of my Answer. It is widely known that the Mauritius Labour Party put forward proposals which were in advance of those which I eventually recommended to the conference, but I am pretty sure from my own knowledge of the conference and of Mauritius that what came out of the conference has been widely welcomed in Mauritius.

Would the Minister encourage all the parties in Mauritius to organise themselves so that they cut across racial lines in their organisation and so proceed as quickly as possible to responsible self-government with the confidence of all?

I think that the approach which was outlined at the Mauritius conference of a comparatively small advance now and a considerable advance after the next general election—although I think it likely that some such regrouping as the hon. Member indicates may well have to take place—is the right approach.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what arrangements are being made in British Colonies in Africa for the care of refugees from Angola.

My right hon. Friend has received no report of any refugees from Angola entering territories for which he is responsible.

While I very much regret that the Government found it undesirable to convey the feelings of our people to the Portuguese Government, may I ask whether they will at least do whatever they can to look after the victims of what has happened in that unhappy country?

Yes, Sir. But no refugees have come into British Colonial Territories.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if the Aids to Industry Board on Malta has arrived at a decision regarding the application by two shipping companies for permission to operate a car ferry service between Malta and the African, French and Italian ports; and if he will make a statement.

No, Sir. The applications, which involve substantial financial aid and tax concessions by the Malta Government raise issues of policy which are now being studied jointly by the Aids to Industries Board in Malta and the Malta Industrial Development Board in London.

Is it not a fact that last January two reputable firms made an application for the running of these ferries and that they were prepared to invest large amounts of money? If the ferries are put into operation it is bound to encourage the tourist trade of Malta, on which the people will depend. Will he hurry on the negotiations which have been pending since January?

It is right for the Government of Malta and the Development Board to look into the matter on questions of principle. What was requested was a loan of £125,000 and a grant of £250,000 for one of these companies. Matters of principle are involved. These will be studied, and we shall then look at the matter again.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is yet able to announce the terms of reference and the name of the person appointed to conduct inquiries into the recent riots in Zanzibar.

The terms of reference are

"To inquire into and report upon the civil disturbances which occurred in Zanzibar on the 1st June and succeeding days, including their causes and development and the steps taken to deal with them."

May I ask whether the Minister is aware that these terms of reference appear to be extremely comprehensive and that there will be a general welcome in Zanzibar for the fact that a judge from this country will be conducting the inquiry?

The terms are deliberately drawn wide so that Sir Stafford will not be impeded if he wishes to inquire into any matter, for example, affecting security.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what has been the increased cost to the Exchequer in the first six months of 1961, as compared to the same period of 1960, as a result of the dumping of barley in the United Kingdom at a price below the cost of production in the country of origin.

The effect of dumped or subsidised imports of barley on the Exchequer liability under the guarantee cannot be isolated from the many factors which determine the market price of home-grown barley. For example, whilst the average price of home-grown barley in the first six months of 1961 was about 3s. per cwt. less than in the corresponding period of 1960, it must be remembered that the crop was a quarter of a million tons bigger and harvested under far less favourable conditions than the 1959 crop.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the general satisfaction which is felt by farmers at the steps which have been taken to stop the dumping of barley in this country? Is he satisfied that plans to prevent Russian barley from coming in are finalised and satisfactory? Looking to the future, has he had an opportunity to consult the trade to find out whether it is prepared to take up all of the 1961 home-grown barley crop?

Yes, Sir. I had a meeting with the trade yesterday and I was given an assurance that it would do its best to take up the whole of this year's crop from our own farms. Russian imports are a matter for my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade.

Has any of this dumped barley come from the countries of the Six? Is so, why has not that been stopped?

France was exporting barley to us. My right hon. Friend has arranged that no French barley shall come here below the price of £20 a ton.

In view of the fact that the cost of this dumped barley falls on the Exchequer rather than on the producer, will my right hon. Friend consult our mutual right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade with a view to altering the arrangements so that it is no longer incumbent on the producer but rather on the Government to establish a case of dumping and so eliminate the delay which occurs at present?

It is incumbent on the Government to establish a case once application has been made, but part of the case is that damage must have been done to a particular industry. As my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade has frequently said, before it can be established that damage has been done to a particular industry it must put in an application.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what has been the amount of beef imported in the past six months; and how that amount compares with the same period one year earlier.

The latest six-months period for which final figures of imports are available is that from December, 1960, to May 1961, when imports of beef totalled 142,000 tons compared with 158,500 tons in the same period a year earlier. We estimate that the figures of imports for the six months to 30th June, 1961, will show a reduction of about 12 per cent. over last year.

Will not my hon. Friend agree that there were 100,000 tons of imported carcase beef from South America to this country in the first six months of this year and that these imports should be curtailed until such time as our home beef market has had a chance to recover?

A lesser quantity came from South America this year than in the same period last year. It would be over-hasty to assume that the present market price is made or governed by imports this year in view of the reduction.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary say how much came from the Argentine and how much from the Commonwealth?

In this last period of six months there has been a reduction in imports of meat from Australia and from New Zealand. A year ago almost a quarter of our meat came from Australia and New Zealand. This year there has been a reduction in the amount from Australia, from the Argentine and from Uruguay.

May I ask my hon. Friend a question which he cannot answer? Why is it that the reduction in the price of beef has not been reflected in a lower price to the consumer?

I think there is a Question more closely related to that later on the Order Paper to which my right hon. Friend will be replying.

In any case that is out of order on this Question.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to what causes he attributes the continuing fall in the market prices of beef cattle compared with last year; and what estimate he has made of home-produced and imported supplies of beef for the rest of this year, and of the effect of the lower market prices on the cost of the Exchequer subsidy.

The main reason for the fall in market prices of beef cattle seems to be the abnormally high rate of marketing of home produced cattle. But there are a number of other factors, as I explained in my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) on 20th June. I expect total supplies of beef during the next six months to be slightly higher than for the same period last year. The lower market prices will undoubtedly increase the cost of the guarantee but by how much depends on the extent to which prices recover during the rest of the year. There has been a distinct hardening in market prices for fat cattle over the last week and there is reason to hope that this improvement will continue.

Could my right hon. Friend say to what extent the extra charge falling on the Exchequer by way of subsidy for fat cattle is being offset by lower prices for housewives when they go to buy meat in butchers' shops? Has he had consultations with butchers about this? Can he do something to popularise the cheaper cuts of English beef which would, or should, give very good value at today's prices.

Yes, I have had consultations with butchers' representatives on this matter. There are a number of cuts which are considerably cheaper in the shops than they were at this time a year ago. There are some which the butchers are finding it extremely difficult to sell, even at exceedingly low prices. On other cuts the reduction has not been so great, or in some cases even not at all. I believe the fundamental reason for the fall in wholesale prices was the extra number of cattle coming forward from our own farms during these past eight weeks, the increase of which over last year has been quite striking.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that my younger daughter a few weeks ago sold some young beasts in Leicester Market at £4 10s. a hundred- weight against £8 a few months ago? She and young farmers complain that the Government are paying a big subsidy which is going largely to the butchers while housewives and farmers do not get the benefit. Will my right hon. Friend look into that?

I could not say that I was aware of the financial transactions of my hon. Friend's daughter. I hope that if she markets beasts in the future she will find there is an appreciable hardening of the market. The butchers are fully aware—I have had long discussions with their representatives—of the need to try to increase the purchase and consumption of meat by lowering prices, but, of course, they have to sell the whole beast and to think of the prices they charge for the different cuts.

Will my right hon. Friend please recall that when some time ago I asked him about the effect of increased imports of beef from Yugoslavia on the cost to the Exchequer of the beef subsidy he said that the effect was purely marginal? Will he bear in mind that in the present rather depressed state of the beef market any importations have a considerably depressing effect on prices quite out of proportion to the quantity? Will he take steps to see that importation from this source—which I think is a new one from the British point of view—is curtailed?

What matters from the point of view of the market is not the source of imports but the amount of meat coming on to the market. Over the last six months the rate of imported beef coming on to the market was 12 per cent. less than in the previous year.

In view of all the suggestions about wage restraint, is it not a shocking suggestion to come from a Minister, a member of the present Government, that prices of beef should rise? Is that the way to deal with wage problems?

The right hon. Member must have misunderstood me. I did not suggest that. What I said was that I had spoken to the butchers and they are well aware of the need to increase the consumption of beef by lower prices where possible.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will now state what steps he is taking to protect salmon from drift-net fishing in the sea.

This question remains under urgent examination by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and myself.

In view of the fact that this year alone, up to the end of last week, 28,000 salmon have been caught in this manner, will my right hon. Friend agree that the time has come to take early action to prohibit the landing and sale in this country of salmon caught in or near our territorial waters during the annual close season?

The Government fully realise the need to make an urgent declaration of policy on this matter, but there are many difficulties, including the fact that the law and practice in relation to salmon fishing differ widely in England and Scotland. These complicated matters have first to be resolved.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is yet in a position to make a statement concerning the future of the Hill Cow Farming Subsidy after 1963.

No, Sir, but I have very much in mind the importance of making an announcement as soon as possible so that hill farmers may know how they will stand after 1963.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that encouraging reply, may I ask him to bear in mind how very important it is—in view of his recent Answer to Questions about beef —that beef producers on hill and marginal land should know as soon as passible what their future is to be, and that we hope they will be given an assurance that their future will be satisfactory?

I agree with my hon. Friend, but the present powers will continue until November, 1963.

Will the Minister bear in mind that mast of the farmers sitting behind him are in principle against subsidies to private enterprise?

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps he intends taking as a result of the report by the Natural Resources (Technical) Committee entitled, Scale of Enterprise in Farming; and if he will make a statement.

The valuable report by the Natural Resources (Technical) Committee makes no specific recommendations about Government policy, and I have nothing to add to the Answer given to the hon. and learned Member for Brigg (Mr. E. L. Mallalieu) on 2nd February.

Will my hon. Friend particularly note that Part VII of the Zuckerman Report which poses the grave social problems which will face the countryside should there be too rapid amalgamation forced on small farmers as a result of the fall in net farm income?

We have noticed that part. We have given considerable help to the small farmer recently, not least under the Small Farmers Scheme. No one wants to see the pattern of the countryside violated, but there is some financial help towards amalgamation under the Farm Improvements Scheme. More advantage could be taken of co-operation by small farmers, but no one wants to see anyone forced out of his home.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will take steps to ensure that milk surplus to British needs is processed and made available to those British colonies and Commonwealth countries where substantial numbers of children suffer from diseases caused by lack of protein in their diet.

Milk in excess of current needs for the domestic liquid market is already processed into a variety of forms which are freely available for commercial sale both at home and to the Commonwealth. Assistance by Her Majesty's Government to British Colonies and the Commonwealth is made available in the form of grants, loans, technical assistance and educational and training facilities and not by way of contributions in kind.

Will the hon. Gentleman go a stop further and make a very economic use of this product? Will he consult with the other Departments concerned, the Commonwealth Relations Office, the Colonial Office and the Treasury, to see whether this could be a dramatic contribution which would be effective both at home and in the Commonwealth?

It would not be dramatic because we have not a surplus of milk in this country. Although we are producing in excess of the needs of the liquid market, this country is a great importer of foodstuffs, including dairy products.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the recent Conference on International Food and Agriculture at Dubrovnik, at which the farmers' unions were represented, fully approved the policy outlined in my hon. Friend's Question? Is he further aware that U.N.I.C.E.F. is prepared and willing at this moment to take more milk from this country and to distribute it to the people who badly need it?

Generally, that is approved by farmers' representatives throughout the world, but there is a misunderstanding here. There is a suggestion that we have a substantial surplus which, in fact, does not exist.

Would my hon. Friend agree that we could produce more in this country and that would be a better idea than having the quota system for dairy farmers?

That is a wider question altogether.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will give an undertaking, in view of the present uncertainty in the dairy industry, that the recent increase granted for liquid milk in the 1961 Price Review will continue to be paid until the 1962 Review.

Yes, Sir. There is no intention of reducing the guaranteed price for milk before 1st April, 1962. But, as stated in the White Paper, the position will need to be reconsidered at the next Annual Review in the light of progress made towards introducing a suitable alternative system of paying producers.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this statement will be received with relief by dairy farmers? Will he bear in mind the extreme importance of this recent rise to the dairy industry, which is composed mainly of small producers? Will he promise to think very carefully before making any changes detrimental to the dairy industry at the next Price Review?

This will be considered at the next Annual Review. I do not think that my hon. Friend will expect me to comment on it today.

Is it not a fact that the price of liquid milk is twice that of milk sent for processing? Can the right hon. Gentleman explain the difference in the price of milk for these different purposes?

It is very much more expensive to set out to produce milk for the liquid market than it is to produce milk for the manufacturing market. If one sets out to produce milk for the liquid market, it has to be a continual supply throughout the year, and it is very much more expensive to produce milk in the winter than in the summer. A producer setting out to produce milk for the manufacturing market can concentrate his production of milk in those months when it is cheapest to produce milk off the grass.

asked tree Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will now state whether the Northumberland Forest Villages Consultative Committee has been set up; and whether he will state the details of the constitution, terms of reference, and personnel.

The constitution and terms of reference of this Committee have now been agreed and I will send the hon. Member a copy of them. I hope that appointments will be made to the Committee within a few days and that its first meeting will be held on 31st July.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when the report of the 18 months' survey of the wharves on the River Hull is expected to be received by the Hull and East Yorkshire River Board; and whether the Board will consider holding a special meeting to consider the flooding problem in Hull, so that alleviation measures will be taken to prevent further flooding before the next equinoctial high water spring tide on 23rd September.

No date has been given for the presentation of the report of the survey, but action is being taken as each section of the survey is completed. I understand that the river board does not intend to hold any special meetings until the Hull Corporation has served notices on the owners of defective wharves requiring them to raise the level of these wharves to that prescribed in the Corporation's Act of 1925.

Is the Joint Parliamentary Secretary aware that, since the serious flooding in March, the river board has allocated no money and carried out no flood prevention work on the River Hull inside the city boundary? As August is a recess month, is the board to do nothing before the next series of high tides in September and so complete six months of masterly inactivity?

I know that the river board is very well aware of its responsibilities. It is an autonomous local authority. I am not aware of its day-to-day transactions, but I know that it is very much aware of its responsibility and of the fact that certain prevention works will have to be done before the next danger period.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will state the number of defective wharves which caused flooding on 20th March, on the east side of the River Hull, between North Bridge and Sammy's Point, the number of notices to be served on riparian owners to raise their wharves, and the number of flood alleviation schemes to be initiated by the Hull and East Yorkshire River Board in this section of the river.

Flooding appears to have occurred from seven defective wharves on this stretch of the river and as a result of the recent survey the Hull Corporation is being recommended to serve notices on the wharf owners concerned. The river board has not yet prepared any flood alleviation schemes for this section of the river.

How many days' grace after the service of notices are to be allowed to owners of defective wharves? If prevention work is not commenced, what further action will be taken by the river board in the next two months to reduce the causes of flooding from the River Hull and so prevent hundreds of my constituents being flooded for the second time this year?

The hon. and gallant Gentleman would probably get that detailed information more easily if he approached the river board direct. However, if he tables a Question I shall be very willing to try to obtain the information and give it to him at the next available opportunity.

Is my hon. Friend aware that increased flooding must be expected in Hull and other areas due to the increased amount of water coming into the North Sea from the rapid melting of the North Pole ice cap? What does he intend to do about it?

My right hon. Friend is not responsible for the North Pole ice cap.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether it is proposed in the Weights and Measures (No. 2) Bill to require a person in charge of a lorry to record the net weight of coal carried when the vehicle is weighed at a weighbridge.

The hon. Member will doubtless have seen that the Bill does require this.

Is the President of the Board of Trade aware that we welcome the fact that the Bill has now come before the general public in its first stages? There is acute concern about the weight of coal. We welcome this provision.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether power will be sought in the Weights and Measures (No. 2) Bill to require that coal will be packaged or bagged when delivered by a lorry containing supplies for more than one customer.

The hon. Member will doubtless have seen that the Bill does not require this.

Will the right hon. Gentleman have a look at this again in the light of the acute anxiety about the weight of coal?

I think that this provision is in line with the desire of consumers in many parts of the country, but doubtless this will be discussed at a later stage.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in the light of the observations in paragraph 172 of the Monopolies Commission's Report on Cigarettes and Tobacco, he will amend the Companies Act so as to require the publication of fuller information about shares held by one company in another.

The questions of disclosure of the beneficial ownership of shares in companies and of the names of subsidiary companies owned by parent companies are matters within the terms of reference of the Committee on Company Law under Lord Jenkins. The Committee has received much evidence bearing on these matters, and I propose to await its report before I consider modifying present legislation.

Is it not clear from the Report of the Monopolies Commission that Imperial Tobacco Co. purposely reduced its holding in Gallaher in order to conceal the extent of its holding? Has not the Commission reported that the holding, even at its existing level, is against the public interest? Will not the right hon. Gentleman therefore call the attention of the Jenkins Commit- tee to this evidence in the Commission's Report in order that it should take due notice of it?

I am sure that the Jenkins Committee will not have failed to see it.

asked the Prime Minister if he will direct the appropriate Ministers to prepare a White Paper containing all the official records and information within the possession or procurement of Her Majesty's Government relating to restrictions placed during the last ten years by the Governments of the maritime nations of Northern Europe on fishing in the territorial waiters adjacent and contiguous to their coasts, with special reference to the bearing of those restrictions on the British fishing industry.

No, Sir. British vessels are not, of course, permittted to fish in foreign territorial waters. Restrictions on fishing outside territorial waters are the subject of agreements which have already been published as White Papers.

Does not the Prime Minister realise that the plans and manoeuvres of the other maritime nations to outwit and damage the British fishing industry have been remarkably successful? Does he not agree that the best way to counter these moves would be to make a full disclosure of all the facts in a White Paper so that the British fishing industry can protect itself, if the Government will not protect it?

All the facts have been published in the four agreements concerned—namely, those with the Soviet Union, Denmark, Norway and Iceland.

asked the Prime Minister if he will direct the appropriate Ministers to prepare a White Paper containing all the official records within the possession or procurement of Her Majesty's Government indicating how many international and other conferences abroad and within Great Britain relating to the fishing industry involved the attendance there of the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food; and if, in view of the number of such conferences, he will now appoint a Minister to he responsible solely for the fishing industry.

No. Sir.

Does not the Prime Minister realise that the duties of the present occupant of the office require him to be in several places at once? Does he recall that 100 years ago an Irish Member, Sir Boyle Roche, said:

"No man can be in two places at once barring he is a bird."

asked the Prime Minister whether, in order to avert the danger that Her Majesty's forces may be engaged in armed combat against the Iraqi Army, and to prevent the unnecessary loss of British lives, he will propose to other heads of Governments represented in the Security Council that a neutral zone should be established between the British and Iraqi forces at Kuwait, and that United Nations observers should undertake to supervise it.

asked the Prime Minister if, in view of the need for reduced expenditure in Kuwait, he will propose to the other heads of Governments represented in the Security Council plans for a neutral zone on the borders of Kuwait.

Her Majesty's Government desire both to avoid fighting in Kuwait and to reduce our expenditure where possible. We will consider all possible means of achieving these aims.

I want to ask the Prime Minister two questions. First, in fairness to our troops, ought we not to take every possible precaution to prevent the risk of any armed conflict? Secondly, who is it that objects to a United Nations presence in Kuwait? Is it the Ruler of Kuwait, or is it Her Majesty's Government?

With regard to the first part of the supplementary ques- tion, I agree with what the right hon. Gentleman said. With regard to the second part, we are in this difficulty. The Soviet veto of our eminently reasonable resolution has made things more difficult in the United Nations. Kuwait is not a member of the United Nations. But we are certainly keeping an open mind on this, as indeed we are on other possible solutions of the immediate problem.

Will the Prime Minister instruct our delegate to put this proposal before the Security Council? Is it not in the interests of the Ruler of Kuwait, if he wants to establish his independence, that there should be a United Nations presence there as soon as possible?

Yes, but I repeat that the first resolution we put down, which I think everybody regarded as very reasonable, was vetoed. It is difficult to make progress at the moment. There are alternative methods, which we must not altogether leave on one side—for instance, the possibility of the Arab League playing a rôle?

In view of the Prime Minister's statement that we must keep in mind the need for reducing expenditure, may I ask him if he is aware that the House has not yet had any statement about what this expenditure is?

Order. I require the hon. Gentleman's assistance. Unless he has withdrawn his application far an Adjournment on that topic, the question is barred by his own notice.

I am not quite sure, because to the last diplomatic message I sent you, Mr. Speaker, I have not received an answer. I will, therefore, postpone that part of my question and ask the Prime Minister if, in view of the need to reduce expenditure, he will take into consideration the fact that the United States has large oil interests in Kuwait and ask her to share some of this expenditure.

I think with the general assent of all parties in the House, with very few exceptions, we carried out an operation Which we believed it was our duty to do. We are anxious, of course, to relieve ourselves of this obligation as soon as we can. Already we have been able, fortunately, to make a very substantial withdrawal of troops, and we are studying the best means by which we can get still greater relief.

Can we take it from the Prime Minister's replies that Her Majesty's Government would be willing to co-operate with the Arab League in policing the borders of Kuwait and Iraq?

All these questions must be considered. All I was saying was that we have not been able to make great progress, except that we have been able to withdraw a great part of our forces.

The Prime Minister has twice referred to a substantial withdrawal of forces. Yesterday, when we asked the Minister of Defence what size of force we were withdrawing and how much remained there, we were refused an answer. Will the Prime Minister tell us how substantial the withdrawal is?

I think that the figures were published in the Press today.

If they were published in the Press today, may I ask why hon. Members were denied these figures in this House yesterday? If I put a specific Question again to him, will be give me an answer that the Minister of Defence denied me yesterday?

I shall, of course, consider doing that.

On a point of order. Regarding your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, I would like to know what remedy I have about my attempts to get an estimate of the expenditure in Kuwait. I gave notice that I would raise this matter on the Adjournment. I have communicated with you asking for an Adjournment, and I should like to know what the position is likely to be.

The ballot takes place at 4.30 p.m. today, and that is why I cannot answer the hon. Gentleman at the moment.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will propose to President Kennedy, Chairman Khrushchev and General de Gaulle that preliminary arrangements should be made for the holding in the late autumn of an East-West Summit Conference on Germany and Berlin.

We are at present engaged in correspondence with the Soviet Government about Germany and Berlin. If this should show that discussions are possible on the basis that I described to the House on 27th June, we shall not hesitate to undertake them.

Will the Prime Minister, with the exquisite courtesy he usually displays to Questions coming from this quarter of the House, take note of the very widely held feeling that the issues of Berlin and Germany can be settled by negotiation and must be settled by negotiation? Will he take some initiative leading to what must inevitably be a Summit Conference if this is to be settled?

I have nothing to add to the Answer I made.