Lords Amendment: In line 11, after the words last inserted, insert new Clause D:
(1) Subject to section twenty of this Act, in licensed premises the holder of the licence or his servant shall not knowingly sell intoxicating liquor to a person under eighteen, or knowingly allow a person under eighteen to consume intoxicating liquor in a bar, nor shall the holder of the licence knowingly allow any person to sell intoxicating liquor to a person under eighteen.
(2) A person under eighteen shall not in licensed premises buy or attempt to buy intoxicating liquor, nor consume intoxicating liquor in a bar.
(3) No person shall buy or attempt to buy intoxicating liquor for consumption in a bar in licensed premises by a person under eighteen.
(4) In the foregoing subsections, and in sections one hundred and twenty-six and one hundred and twenty-seven of the Licensing Act, 1953 (which contain other provisions for the protection of children and young persons), references to a bar shall not apply to a bar at any time when it is, as is usual in the premises in question, set apart for the service of table meals and not used for the sale or supply of intoxicating liquor otherwise than to persons having table meals there and for consumption by such a person as an ancillary to his meal; and nothing in subsection (1) or (2) above shall prohibit the sale to or purchase by a person who has attained the age of sixteen of beer, porter, cider or perry for consumption at a meal in a part of the premises usually set apart for the service of meals which is not a bar or in a bar at any such time as aforesaid.
(5) The holder of the licence or his servant shall not knowingly deliver, nor shall the holder of the licence knowingly allow any person to deliver, to a person under eighteen intoxicating liquor sold in licensed premises for consumption off the premises, except where the delivery is made at the residence or working place of the purchaser, nor shall any person knowingly send a person under eighteen for the purpose of obtaining intoxicating liquor sold or to be sold as aforesaid from the licensed premises or other premises from which the liquor is delivered in pursuance of the sale:
Provided that this subsection shall not apply where the person under eighteen is a member of the licence holder's family or his servant or apprentice and is employed as a messenger to deliver intoxicating liquor.
(6) A person guilty of an offence under this section (other than an offence under subsection (2)) shall be liable on a first conviction to a fine not exceeding twenty-five pounds and on a second or subsequent conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds; and on a person's second or subsequent conviction of such an offence the court may, if the offence was committed by him as the holder of a justices' licence, order that he shall forfeit the licence.
(7) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (2) of this section shall be liable to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds.
(8) Where a justices' licence is forfeited under subsection (6) above, justices of the peace shall have the like power to make a protection order under subsection (3) of section twenty-three of the Licensing Act, 1953, as they have in a case falling within that subsection, and the provisions relating to transfers of licences shall apply accordingly.
(9) In subsection (1) of section one hundred and twenty-seven of the Licensing Act, 1953 (under which the holder of a justices' licence is guilty of an offence if a person under eighteen is employed in a bar of licensed premises when the bar is open for the sale or consumption of liquor), the word "justices'" shall be omitted.
(10) Subsections (1) to (3) and subsection (9) above (but not subsection (4)) shall apply in relation to any canteen (within the meaning of the Licensing (Seamen's Canteens) Act, 1954) in respect of which a licence is in force under that Act as if the canteen were licensed premises, but with the substitution for any reference to a bar of a reference to the canteen; and in subsection (6) above the references to a justices' licence shall accordingly include a licence under that Act.
(11) For the purposes of subsection (6) above a conviction of an offence under section one hundred and twenty-eight or subsection (1), (4) or (5) of section one hundred and twenty-nine of the Licensing Act, 1953 (or under any of those enactments as applied by the Licensing (Seamen's Canteens) Act, 1954, or by the Occasional Licences and Young Persons Act, 1956) shall be taken into account in the same way as a conviction of an offence under this section other than an offence under subsection (2).
I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords Amendment.
This rather formidable-looking Clause gives effect to the views expressed in Committee and on Report that the present prohibition of sales to young persons should be extended to off-sales. It prohibits sales to young persons under the age of 18 on off-licence premises. The reason why the Clause looks so formidable is that we have taken the opportunity of consolidating the law respecting the sales of liquor to young persons all in one Clause. I think that that is a reasonable thing to do, because the House has always been concerned throughout the passage of the Bill to try to protect the interests of young people. I think that it will be helpful to have all these provisions in one Clause. The only other paint is that the Clause extends the prohibition to premises which have retail excise licences only, such as theatre bars, where at present, it is perfectly legal for a young person to get a drink. This Clause goes some way to meet the views expressed by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for The Hartlepools (Commander Kerans) on Report. These views were opposed in some quarters of the House, but undoubtedly the majority wished to see the prohibition extended to the age of 18. That was the wish of the House, and I hope that the new Clause will commend itself to it today.I am most grateful to the Government for the way in which they have drafted this Amendment from another place, and I am sure that it will be welcome to a very large section of the community. Looking at the Report on Criminal Statistics, England and Wales, which was published yesterday, and particularly the figures for juvenile crime, we realise that this Clause will go some way towards reducing the number of these indictable offences arising from drunkenness and the purchase of liquor by young persons below the age of 18. I am still a little unhappy about the identification of people under 18 and of those of 18 and above. I think that this is a difficult thing to overcome and that only the passage of time will show whether it really works. I am not at all certain whether, perhaps, fines upon the parents should not have been imposed, rather than on the publican or licensee, but only time will tell how it will work. I am grateful to the Government for what they have done, and I am sure that the majority of people will also be grateful.
I think that we ought to be very careful, when legislating to get rid of abuses of the law, that we do not by so doing cause great inconvenience to people exercising their legitimate rights under the law.
It seems to me to be absolutely ridiculous that a father should be at liberty to go to a public house or an off-licence, quite legally buy a bottle of whisky and then feed it to a child of 10 at home, whereas under these provisions it is quite illegal for a man to send his son aged 17 to an off-licence to get a bottle of beer for the father to consume at home. To my mind, that is utterly ridiculous. There are places in this country, including my constituency, where the father is at work by day and returns home at night, wanting both refreshment and a meal at home. The mother, however, is unable to leave the house, because she has children to look after and has the meal to prepare, and it is quite customary for children to be sent, not to a bar, but an off-licence or the off-licence department in a public house, to purchase, generally, beer for the father who has come home from work. This is something utterly reasonable, and without doubt it will be a hardship to a certain number of people if this right is withdrawn. Had this Amendment merely said that it would henceforth be illegal for an off-licence department of a public house or an off-licence shop to supply spirits or wine to persons under 18, I think that, on balance, it would have commended itself to me. The evil which we are endeavouring to obviate is that of young persons buying wines and spirits at off-licensed premises, taking them away and drinking them. What we should not be trying to prevent is the sort of practice which I have described where parents in reasonable need of refreshment send their children to fetch it for them. Moreover, if people wish to drink wines or spirits at home, there is no good reason why they should not purchase such drinks some time in advance and have them standing by. On the other hand, where there are no facilities for storing beer at a reasonable temperature and in proper conditions at home, there is something to be said for obtaining it at the time one wishes to drink it. This series of new provisions in the Lords Amendment does not, therefore, commend itself to me. I doubt very much that those who drafted it fully considered what the effects would be. In my view, since we are endeavouring to tidy up the Bill, it would be the lesser evil to send this new Clause back to another place to be redrafted in a somewhat more intelligent and just form.3.30 p.m.
I appreciate what my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop) says. I said something to similar effect in Committee. I realise that some inconvenience will be caused as a result of the Amendment. Nevertheless, I have no doubt that the majority opinion of the House was that something on these lines should be introduced. The Government considered that there was no alternative but to go the whole way in this respect, and that is what we have done.
I do not think that people will find it quite so difficult to adjust themselves to the new procedure as, perhaps, my hon. Friend imagines. I am following the desire expressed by the House during the Report stage, and the Government have always made clear that on this Measure they would be responsible to parliamentary and public opinion on any particular point. That is what we have done in putting down this new Clause.Question put and agreed to.
Subsequent Lords Amendments agreed to.