asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what further developments have taken place in respect of the proposed Malaysian Federation to include British North Borneo, Brunei and Sarawak; if the Sultan of Brunei has indicated his approval of the proposal; if Her Majesty's Government, in consultation with the Malayan Government, will invite the Sultan to make some of his educational and medical services available to other Territories in the proposed Federation; and whether the proposal will be subject to a referendum of the peoples in each of the Territories.

It has been agreed with the Government of the Federation of Malaya that a Commission of Inquiry should visit North Borneo and Sarawak to ascertain the views of the peoples of North Borneo and Sarawak on inclusion in the proposed new Federation and to make recommendations in the light of its assessment of these views. Steps are now being taken to establish it.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the Sultan of Brunei has, in reply to the questions I have addressed to the Minister, stated that he will make these medical and educational services available to the other prospective members of the Federation, because these services in Brunei are particularly valuable? Can the Secretary of State for the Colonies give any indication about how the people in the respective areas will be consulted?

In reply to the first point, that was what I had in mind when I said that the issues raised in the third part of the Question would be matters for the Governments of the proposed Federation and Brunei to consider. It is premature to do so at this stage. In reply to the second point, we expect to proceed rapidly with the establishment of the Commission and its terms of reference.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the tonnage of copra exported from North Borneo ports during the first eleven months of 1960 and 1961, respectively.

The figures are 72,654 and 59,500.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in 1960, the copra imports to North Borneo amounted to 61 per cent. of the total exports of copra from the Colony and that this was 22 per cent. of the total export trade of North Borneo, whereas if my mathematics are correct, the corresponding figure is something like 15 per cent. on a smaller total export trade? Does not this indicate a deplorable state of affairs owing to piracy in the East Borneo seas?

Piracy is one factor, but the fluctuations in the market price of copra are another and, possibly, more important factor.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many acts of piracy were reported to the North Borneo Government during the first eleven months of 1960 and 1961, respectively.

The Answer is 47 and 97.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this is an extraordinary increase in the number of cases of piracy? Is he satisfied that the measures so far taken by his Department in conjunction with the North Borneo Government are adequate to meet the situation?

I am a little worried about this and intended to make some further inquiries. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for calling it to my attention.

If the Singapore base cannot enable us to deal with local pirates, what the devil can it do?

The main purpose of the Singapore base is slightly different.

Will the Minister state what kind of pirates are operating? What race are they, for example?

Without notice, I am not sure what race they are, but they are very unpleasant pirates.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies in which ex-Colonial Territories the lump sum compensation for expatriate civil servants given on change of status has been wholly paid by means of a direct or indirect grant from the Treasury of the United Kingdom.

There are no ex-Colonial Territories where the payment of compensation for expatriate civil servants has been met directly by grant from the United Kingdom Treasury. To the extent to which we pay any form of grant to a Colonial or ex-Colonial Territory it can be said that we are helping that Territory indirectly to finance any liability it may be under to pay such compensation.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that this establishes a relationship, albeit an interim one, between employment by Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom and Her Majesty's Government overseas?

I do not think so. I think that there is a distinction between people recruited by the Secretary of State for service in the Colonial Service generally and those locally recruited, but if we are thinking of a grant in aid to a Territory, then clearly it must help with its various liabilities.

Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that on future occasions like this Her Majesty's Government are as generous as possible in giving help in this respect? Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is important to maintain the good will of ex-colonial servants and equally important not to place an unfair burden of compensation on countries with highly under-developed economies?

Yes, Sir, I accept that. What we have done in these matters fully meets those criteria.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that all the political parties in Malta, including those that gave evidence to the Blood Commission, have now indicated their opposition to the new Constitution, and that this may lead to a partial or a complete boycott of the General Election in February; and if he will take steps to meet the representatives of the main parties with a view to arriving at a mutual understanding before the election.

I would refer the hon. Member to the Reply I gave him on 23rd November, to which I have nothing to add.

I am well aware of the reply that was given on a previous occasion. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the position is getting very serious and that the General Election is to take place in February and it is far better to get the co-operation of political parties in Malta before the election takes place than to have them boycott it? Will he make another approach with a view to avoiding the possibility of a boycott?

No, Sir. As I understand, both the Progressive Constitutional Party and the Nationalist Party have said that they will contest the General Election and the only major party that has not yet committed itself is the Malta Labour Party.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is grave misgiving in the major parties in Malta about participation in the election as long as Her Majesty's Government fail to make clear whether or not they would favour an ultimate move towards self-determination? Cannot Her Majesty's Government give the Maltese people some assurance on this point before the election campaign goes further?

We have made it clear that we do not regard this present stage of development in Malta as the final stage, but I see no reason why we should go beyond that to enable parties to take part in the election. I hope that they will take part.

Would it not be best if the political parties exercise such democratic rights as the new Constitution will give them as the best way of extending their position and advancing it if possible towards a later Constitution when they can qualify for it?

Yes, Sir. I am sure that that is the right way to proceed.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has yet received any indication that the major political parties in Malta are willing to take part in the election proposed to be held in February; by what date he will have to be informed of their willingness to take part, if this election is to be held at all; and what preparations he is making to ensure that it can be conducted fairly.

No, Sir. No party need make known its intention of contesting the elections until nomination of candidates is called for. The writ for elections has not yet been issued. I am satisfied that the arrangements made under the electoral legislation will ensure fair conduct of the elections.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that he is much more likely to get the participation of all parties, which, presumably, he wants, in order to ensure a representative result, if he would only make a positive affirmation on the right of the Maltese people to self-determination, while reserving the timing of it until after the election, instead of merely repeating the negative and vague formula which he has repeated again today? Will he seriously consider this, and also the possibility of ensuring fair elections, which are by no means sure, by sending out a supervisory commission or something of that kind?

On the first point, I can only repeat what I said in reply to an earlier supplementary question. I do not see why our present position on further constitutional developments should inhibit any party from contesting the election under the new Constitution, which is a considerable advance on what has gone before. I have discussed very closely with the Governor the arrangements for ensuring fair elections. I am concerned about this, but I think that in practice the arrangements will work well.

My right hon. Friend is asking for fifty candidates from each party. Does not he feel that that will be far more than most of them can provide, and is not that, possibly, a reason why they cannot make up their minds?

This is a point which has been raised. I understand there is no local government at the moment in Malta, and it is therefore necessary to have a fairly large body in the Legislature itself.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there have already been some instances of violence in the pre-election period, and that the line being taken by the Roman Catholic hierarchy on the island is one which we in this country would certainly regard as illicit interference with the freedom of the elections? In view of this fact, and the strong feelings about it in many sections of the Maltese population, will the right hon. Gentleman seriously consider sending out some sort of official mission to observe the election during the next two months, so that justice can not only be done but can be seen to be done by all concerned?

If the hon. Member has evidence of this type of activity which is likely to lead to unfairness in the elections, I should be grateful if he will send it to me, and I will consider it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps are being taken to protect the interests of Malta in any Common Market discussions; and what steps are being taken to obtain the views of Maltese business men on this subject and to keep them informed of progress in the matter.

My right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal in his statement to the representatives of the Six Member Governments on 10th October suggested that our dependent territories should be given the opportunity if they so wish to enter into association with the Community on the same terms as those which will in future be available to the present associated overseas countries and territories. In this or other ways it is hoped to protect the vital interests of the dependent territories. The Maltese Government has been consulted and is kept informed of developments. But in view of the confidential nature of the negotiations it is not possible either in Malta or elsewhere to keep business men informed of details of the negotiations.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I have just come back from Malta and that when he refers to the Malta Government that does not include any Maltese? Does he realise that the vast majority of the people who are interested in Malta are not being told anything about it, especially those politicians and leaders of parties who will be fighting a General Election next February? Does he not think that the Colonial Secretary there, or whoever is responsible, should take the trouble to keep the Maltese informed and not just the Government of Malta?

That is another argument for having a General Election in Malta as soon as possible and getting a Government established.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that under the terms of the Rome Treaty, if we succeed in entering the Common Market, we shall be obliged to allow Sicilians into this country free of control, whereas, under the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill, the Government will be compelled to institute control over Maltese immigration? As Secretary of State for the Colonies, is he not ashamed of that situation?

The hon. Gentleman is better aware of both the principles and the practice of the Treaty of Rome than would be implied from that supplementary question.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on his official visit to Northern Rhodesia and Kenya.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on his discussions with political leaders in Northern Rhodesia regarding the new Constitution.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) if he will make a statement on the proposed constitutional changes for Northern Rhodesia following his recent visit to Central Africa:

During my visit to Northern Rhodesia I had confidential talks about the Constitution with the Governor, all political parties and representatives of the chiefs. I am not yet ready to communicate any conclusions to the House but I recognise the need for an early decision, which was impressed on me from all quarters in the Territory.

Whilst appreciating the difficulties, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he does not appreciate that we are in the position that we shall be adjourning shortly until towards the end of January and that it is very important that any statement which he makes should be open to discussion in the House and, on the other hand, it is urgent that he should make that statement? In view of these facts, is it not possible before the House adjourns at the end of this week that some statement should be made about this grave situation in Northern Rhodesia?

The hon. Member has stated my difficulties very fairly. It is not possible to make a statement in the course of the next two or three days, but without trespassing on the ground of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, I can say that it is quite clear that on a matter of such great importance the House will wish to have a discussion at the appropriate time.

Will the right hon. Gentleman be the new broom which we all hope he is? Will he sweep away the equivocations, evasions and manœuvres of the past? When he brings in the new Constitution for Northern Rhodesia, will he be guided by the principle in the Monckton Commission's Report, namely, that the will of the majority must prevail?

I have been described as many things but not before, I think, as a new broom.

The right hon. Gentleman is obviously well aware of the urgency with which this matter is regarded in Northern Rhodesia. May I remind him that if he waits until after the Recess almost a year will have passed since his predecessor made proposals none of which has yet been implemented in Northern Rhodesia? Will the right hon. Gentleman look at the possibility of making a statement before the House rises?

I should have liked to have made a statement but it is impossible in the time available. It is more important to get it right than to get it immediately.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what representations on the subject of terrorism and intimidation were made by Chief Chitimukulu on the occasion of the Governor-General's recent visit to Northern Rhodesia.

In receiving the Governor-General, Paramount Chief Chitimukulu welcomed him as a friend at a time when, as he said, the native authorities had just overcome severe difficulties and strain imposed on them by the activities of the United National Independence Party.

Could my right hon. Friend say what steps he is taking to protect this tribe from intimidation and terrorism by the U.N.I.P. of which Chief Chitimukulu complained?

The security service in Northern Rhodesia has done a fine job indeed in restoring law and order and in dealing effectively with these difficulties.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman also pay some tribute to the influence that Mr. Kenneth Kaunda has had in restraining any signs of violence which there may have been in Northern Rhodesia?

The Question referred to what the Paramount Chief said on a particular occasion. I think that I have already referred in the House to the appeal which Mr. Kaunda made on the question of violence.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on his proposals for constitutional reform in Hong Kong.

No, Sir.

Has the right hon. Gentleman received, as I hope he has, and has he read the suggestions and proposals which have been put forward by the United Nations Association of Hong Kong, which is under the patronage of Sir Robert Black, the Governor of the Colony? Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that Hong Kong still operates largely under war-time regulations and is in effect a police State? Does he think that a good advertisement for Britain? Would he not like to use his new broom to sweep away these regulations and give these people greater control over their own internal affairs?

I cannot recall the representations to which the hon. Member refers, but I will look them up. Generally speaking, I should have thought that the constitutional position of Hong Kong was fairly satisfactory and that the Colony on the whole was making considerable progress.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that we have an excellent administration at present in Hong Kong and that, with all the refugees coming over, those concerned are doing wonderful work under great difficulties in putting people into new homes and houses? Cannot we send them a message saying, "Thank you for what you are doing?"

I entirely agree.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that those of us who have seen something of what is going on in Hong Kong disagree violently with what the hon. Member for Bromsgrove (Mr. Dance) has just said? Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that a great many people in Hong Kong support the view that we take that the time has now arrived when this mild demand for a measure of internal control over their own affairs which is growing in Hong Kong should be met? Will the right hon. Gentleman do one little thing and consider this more than he has done?

I accept that there are differences in this House but, on the whole, I am inclined to accept the view of my hon. Friend the Member for Bromsgrove (Mr. Dance).

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that it is thought in some parts of the country that there is far too good a Government in Hong Kong for our own peace of mind in the industries in the North?

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps are being taken to obtain the opinion of welfare workers and the people from Tristan da Cunha on a suitable place where they can settle down as a community; and if he will give an assurance that no steps will be taken about a place without full consultation with these people, and that in the meantime sufficient State funds will be made available to them to obtain a reasonable measure of comfort.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) whether he is aware that the refugees from Tristan da Cunha are in need of help; and what steps he has taken to bring some of the necessities, as well as the comforts, of life to these people;

I am happy to be able to state that some fifty married quarters at the former R.A.F. Station at Calshot have been offered by the Air Ministry for the use of the Tristan islanders. I am particularly grateful to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Air for making it possible to meet the needs of the islanders in this way. Arrangements will have to be made for the furnishing of the houses, and the move to Calshot should be completed well before the end of January. The other married quarters will be occupied by R.A.F. families.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I am very glad that he is carrying out his promise, made a long time ago, to look after these people while they were in this country? However, is he aware that since putting down this Question I have been assured that these people cannot settle in this country because of the climate and other circumstances? Will he make a survey of the island again to see whether it is possible for these people to go back to their own homes and rehabilitate themselves in their own places rather than in this country?

There is a later Question about the state of affairs in the island itself. This accommodation has been studied by the Administrator, the parson, some of the islanders and my own officials, and they are all satisfied that, with the employment prospects and the sea nearby, it represents a satisfactory permanent arrangement.

Why has it taken all this time to arrange for suitable accommodation for these people? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Rev. Philip Lindsay, who was a missionary in Tristan, was horrified when he went to see the conditions under which these people were living? Will the right hon. Gentleman also answer that part of my Question in which I ask what is being done about supplying suitable funds to these people to meet their needs? Is he aware that a prescription was given to one person who had to travel three miles to get it dispensed? What is he doing about that sort of thing?

The hon. Gentleman's question about an individual prescription is rather too detailed for him to expect me to answer it without notice. We have made considerable provision for these people in this country. This is a unique problem. Their resistance to disease and their adaptation to conditions in a modern industrial community are problems which we have to look at very carefully, not rushing into decisions which would be foolish and not in the interests of the islanders.

As I was there this morning seeing these excellent people, will the right hon. Gentleman take from the House a message of appreciation to the Administrator, the padre, and the volunteers of the W.V.S. and the Red Cross for the obviously magnificent job which has been done? As in many outstanding respects—I will not detail them now—the present quarters are clearly inadequate, will the right hon. Gentleman make sure that they get houses more suitable for our climate as soon before the end of January as he can possibly arrange? Can he assure us that the number of fifty married quarters he has talked about means that there are adequate resources for the Tristan da Cunhans currently at Merstham?

I am grateful for what the right hon. Gentleman has said and I entirely agree with his first remarks. We will certainly make these accommodation arrangements as fast as we can, but it is my impression that they should be satisfactory for all the islanders.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what responsibility he exercises for the well-being of the evacuees from Tristan da Cunha; whether they have settled down in their new environment; if any attempt has been or will be made to salvage any of their small possessions left on the island; whether the volcanic or seismic disturbances have abated; and whether the evacuees will be permitted to return to the island when it is considered that the phase of disturbance has passed and volcanic recurrence is unlikely.

I am deeply conscious of my responsibilities for the Tristanians' welfare. I would say that in the circumstances they have settled remarkably well in their temporary home at Pendell Camp, and most of the able-bodied men and young women are out at work. It may be possible to recover a few of the possessions which could not be retrieved by H.M.S. "Leopard" if an expedition organised by the Royal Society visits the island in the New Year. H.M.S. "Jaguar", which made a complete circuit of Tristan on 16th December, reported that volcanic activity continues, and I should doubt if it will ever be safe for the islanders to return.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the whole House has deep sympathy with these islanders and desires every effort to be made on their behalf? Do the evacuees have some kind of committee on which they can discuss their affairs and make formal representations to the right hon. Gentleman, or elsewhere? Does he not agree that that is the best procedure they can adopt at this juncture, especially in view of the possibility of never going back to their old homes?

I doubt whether a committee is needed for a small community of this kind, whose members have known each other for many years. I am sure that the established leaders, the Administrator and the padre, and so on, who speak for them can speak for them in full knowledge of their wishes.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what consultations he is planning with the Governments of Trinidad and the Windward and Leeward Islands regarding a future form of association between their Territories.

I intend to visit Port-of-Spain and stay with the Governor-General in mid-January.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we welcome his announcement and wish him well in these talks, because of the urgency of the problems which are faced, especially in the smaller islands?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. These are both urgent and tangled problems.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps he is taking to increase financial assistance to West Indies Territories in view of their economic difficulties.

We are already contributing to the needs of the West Indies for economic assistance at the rate of about £5 million a year in Colonial Development and Welfare and grant-in-aid. I regret that I see no possibility at present of increasing this level of assistance.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of the most useful ways in which we have given economic aid to the West Indies in the past has been by helping to absorb its surplus population? Is he aware that the effect of the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill will be greatly to increase the economic difficulties of those islands? Will he not, therefore, ensure that some of the damage of that Bill is offset by giving more generous aid to these West Indian Territories?

I do not think that we can assess the effect of the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill until we see how it works in practice. The Question referred to financial assistance and, in view of our current financial circumstances and balance of payments position, it is clear that we cannot increase the amount of financial assistance which we are giving.

As the income per capita in the West Indies is at least five times greater than that of India and Pakistan, will my right hon. Friend see that the West Indies do not get an advantage over other members of the Commonwealth? Will he also bear in mind that there is a limit to what this country can do for overseas Territories?

Average figures of that kind can be a little misleading. One has to look at the exact situation in every Territory. The aid we are providing now is on a commendable scale. We all wish that it would be more, but in present circumstances an increase would not be justified.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the West Indies as a whole buys about £60 million worth of British goods a year, and will he do everything he can to assist these splendid people and give them all the encouragement possible?

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what reply he has made to the request of Dr. Cheddi Jagan, Prime Minister of British Guiana, for the naming of a date for the political independence of that territory.

I informed Dr. Jagan on 14th December that I had taken note of the resolution passed by the British Guiana Legislature asking me to fix a date for independence during 1962. I reminded him of the formula on independence which had been agreed at the Constitutional Conference in 1960. I recognised that the Legislature's resolution was, however, a new development. I informed him that I therefore proposed to consult my colleagues on his representations, and hoped to be able to let him know the decision of Her Majesty's Government early in the New Year.

While appreciating much in that reply, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is not a fact that a very critical situation is again developing in British Guiana? Is it not a fact that Dr. Jagan, since he has been a Minister, has acted with considerable restraint and with considerable constructive statesmanship? Will the right hon. Gentleman approach the Foreign Office to ask it if it will reverse its policy at the United Nations, which, even yesterday, opposed Mr. Cheddi Jagan being heard by the Trusteeship Committee?

No, Sir. I cannot accept that a critical situation, in any sense of the word, exists in British Guiana. I have already explained the position, and it seems to me to be reasonable that I should have a chance to consider any representations put to me. So far as the United Nations is concerned, we do not consider this matter in any sense to be within the competence of the United Nations.

asked the Minister of Works whether he is aware that Indian hemp is being grown in Bushy Park, Teddington, collected by members of the public, manufactured into cigarettes and sold to young people; and what steps he is taking to prohibit the growing of such plants.

The allegation that Indian hemp was grown in Bushy Park has been thoroughly investigated by the police and by my Department, and has not been substantiated. The staff responsible for the Royal Parks are aware of the danger of this plant.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the people of Bushy would be shocked if the well-cultivated soil of Bushy Park were used for this purpose, as it was reported in court that students are growing Indian hemp, smoking themselves silly and selling cigarettes in Kingston Market?

There is no evidence that this plant has been found anywhere in Bushy Park. There was a wild plant found in the Green Park some time ago. That was immediately destroyed, and I hope that if any hon. Members find any others they will let me know at once.

Is the Minister aware that the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke), in this as in other matters, is in a perpetual fog? Will he take steps—

Order. Whatever the degree of the fog, the Minister cannot be responsible for it.

asked the Minister of Works at what date an annunciator was installed in the rooms, on the Ministerial Floor of this House, of the Leader of the House; and what was the cost.

This annunciator was installed on 21st October, at a cost of £163.

Is the Minister aware that this is very much cheaper than we thought it would be? Has he yet had an application from the Home Secretary to put it back in the room from which it originally came, on the ground that the Home Secretary demonstrated so clearly in the incident of the Mace that he is still the best Leader of the House we have got?

I think that is a question of opinion, and far from the Question on the Order Paper.

asked the Minister of Works if he is aware that due to the Shortage of bricks in Birmingham one housing project has been held up for six months, and that one builder has had to dismiss half his bricklayers; and what action he proposes to take to remedy this shortage.

I understand that in Birmingham two housing schemes were delayed earlier this year, but that bricks are now available for both.

May I ask the Minister whether he is aware that a supplier of large quantities of bricks to Birmingham has said that there will be many months' delay? Is he aware that there are two schemes which have had over four months' delay, and will he undertake to see that Birmingham can have a greater degree of security in obtaining the materials necessary to build the houses which it so badly needs?

These schemes are all right now. I cannot find any evidence of the dismissal of half the bricklayers employed by any firm, and if the hon. Gentleman can let me know about it, I will look into that case again. It is up to those who want bricks to order them in plenty of time, and when that is done, there is very little difficulty.

asked the Minister of Works what progress he has made with the scheme to conserve machinery and industrial buildings of outstanding historical interest.

The position is still as described in the Answer I gave to the hon. Member on 18th July. The Council for British Archaeology is considering what can be done to speed up work on this survey.

Is the Minister aware that this has been hanging on now for about two years? Could he not take a little more interest in this matter and get some material so that he can set up a new scheme to help to preserve these monuments?

I do not want to do anything to anticipate the report. All I can say is that those concerned will notice that this Question has been put down by the hon. Member.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this country has been very backward in making plans to preserve many of the most remarkable relics of early industrial development, such as splendid architectural works in the form of old warehouses, as well as old machines, old steam-engines, and so on, that are now being destroyed fairly quickly? Would it not be a thousand pities if this, the pioneer industrial country, did not preserve its most prominent monuments?

I think there is a lot in that.

Is the Minister aware that there are many others in this country who believe that there are far too many out-dated machines and far too many out-dated directors of machines?

asked the Minister of Works whether he has received the award of the assessors for the architectural competition for the Broad Sanctuary site, Westminster.

Yes, Sir. Of the sixty-five entries submitted, the assessors have placed first the design prepared by Mr. William Whitfield.

asked the Minister of Works if he will state the increase in office, shop and warehouse building in the last twelve months compared with seven years ago, and the decrease in council house building in the same periods.

Figures for shops and warehouses are not available. Public authority housing has fallen from about £440 million in 1954 to about £300 million in 1961 at current prices for each date. The figure for offices in 1954 was about £34 million and although detailed statistics are no longer collected it is estimated that the present figure may be of the order of £110 million.

Does not this mean that the Government's policy has slashed council house building at the very time when it has trebled office building? Which should have priority? Does the Minister think that Shell-Mex should have two enormous office blocks overlooking the Thames when thousands of families cannot even get a single room?

I think the real point is that no less than 26 per cent. of the whole of the construction work now going on is on housing.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that private house building during the same period has doubled, and, further, that the people employed on office blocks would not necessarily have gone into house building if released; for instance, steel erectors?

I certainly agree that private housing has very much played its part in the good figures now being shown.

asked the Minister of Works when he hopes to start work on the provision of extra accommodation for hon. Members and their secretaries under the roof of the Palace of Westminster.

I cannot forecast the date, but it will be as soon as circumstances permit.

But is the Minister aware that this delay is quite intolerable? Is he aware that this extra accommodation is urgently needed to relieve the overcrowded and unsatisfactory conditions in which Members of this House, their secretaries, and officials of the House are having to work? Is it not bad enough for hon. Members to have to endure a pay pause without having an efficiency pause imposed on them as well?

I should like to say two things in answer to that. First, that I believe that the House as a whole would not prefer that we put improvements For ourselves first, although naturally, as I agreed, we want this to be done when it is time to do it. Secondly, the more the hon. Lady and her hon. Friends help outside this House, the quicker we may be able to to do this. I hope that the hon. Lady will not go on making speeches encouraging people to break up the efforts to get this country's economy going properly.

rose—

rose—

Mr. Charles Pannell.

On a point of order.

On a point of order. Mr. Speaker

I called Mr. Charles Pannell.

Before I put my supplementary question, may I put a point of order to you, Mr. Speaker? Bearing in mind the rebuke you gave my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Denis Howell) for introducing the sort of matter which he did into a supplementary question, may I with respect ask you whether the same treatment might be handed out to the Minister for his completely unmerited rebuke to my hon. Friend?

To be completely frank with the House and the hon. Member, I did not hear what the Minister said at that point, so I cannot help myself.

Further to that point of order. Mr. Speaker, I am sorry that you were not able to hear the remarks which the Minister shouted at the top of his voice. What they amounted to, in the hearing of most of us, was a really savage attack on my hon. Friend for her policies and alleged actions in the country, to which, by the nature of the proceedings now before the House, she could not possibly have any opportunity whatever to reply, or from which she could not possibly defend herself at Question Time. I submit to you that that is a grave abuse of the Minister's position, and that he ought to withdraw and apologise.

I have nothing to withdraw. I was referring—

It does not matter to what the noble Lord was referring.

I was referring to the speeches the hon. Lady made last month when she urged the Trades Union Congress—

On a point of order.

Order. Various things were happening. One of them was that I was trying to find out what it was the Minister had said out of which this arose. At that point the Minister rose to do something: I do not know what. I do not know whether he rose to a point of order. If he did not, the present position is that a point of order has been addressed to me by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman). I do not think that there is any breach of order. I do not think that I can say anything else now.

Further to that point of order. Is it not quite clear from what the Minister has just done that, whether he was in order or not before, he is clearly out of order now by his own confession? What he had in mind, and what he is now saying, has no relevance to the Question asked by my hon. Friend, and he is merely using the opportunity created by this point of order to repeat and aggravate his offence. I think that he ought to be called upon, and I respectfully suggest that he should be, to withdraw it, apologise, and undertake not to repeat it.

The right form of the rule is that the answer must relate to the problem put in the Question. In so far as the Minister went outside that, he should in fact withdraw it in relation to Question Time. I gather that what he was saying was something in relation to the hon. Lady's treatment of Government policies in the country, or something of that sort.

Withdraw.

Mr. Speaker, if you instruct me to do so, I withdraw unreservedly. I shall certainly do so. What I should like to explain—and what I have not been able to do up to now—is that the hon. Lady—and she has not asked me to withdraw—was criticising Her Majesty's Government for not getting on with the—

On a point of order.

Order. It is clearly right that I should hear what the Minister is try to tell me.

On a point of order. Is it not perfectly and absolutely clear to us that what the Minister has now commenced to do is to repeat his offence for a third time?

It is not clear to me what the Minister is doing at the moment. I am trying to hear what he is explaining to me.

As I was endeavouring to say, the hon. Lady criticised Her Majesty's Government for not continuing this scheme, and implied that their policy was to blame. I simply said that I hoped the hon. Lady would do what should could to help, and not encourage those outside to do what she was purported to have said in a speech when she urged the Trades Union Congress to go in—

Order.

Get back to the gutter.

Order. In going beyond the subject matter of the Question, the Minister was at fault in answering a question, and I am obliged to him for saying that he will withdraw that part of what he said.

In view of what you say, Mr. Speaker, of course I do so unreservedly.

On a point of order. I distinctly heard the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) address a highly approbrious remark to my noble Friend. It was distinctly heard by all my hon. Friends.

What was it?

I will tell the hon. Gentleman what it was. The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne told my noble Friend to get back to the gutter. Would it be in order for him to be requested to withdraw such a disgraceful remark?

I hope that all hon. Members will make use only of language proper in this House, and I invite the hon. Member, if he used that expression, to withdraw it.

I am very glad to withdraw the invitation if the Minister does not like it.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will arrange for a post office to be established in Shearsby once more.

My right hon. Friend is sorry that he would not be justified in doing as my hon. Friend asks.