asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will state the present relation between rates of old-age pensions, National Assistance and the cost of living in terms of cash and percentages, respectively.

On the basis of the Retail Prices Index, the value of the retirement pension in real terms in December, 1961, was 15s. 8d. single and 22s. 9d. married above that current in October, 1951. Expressed as percentages this represents an improvement of 37 and 33 per cent., respectively. The corresponding figures for National Assistance scale rates are 11s. 8d. and 20s. 3d., representing an improvement of 28 and 29 per cent., respectively.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for the detail of his reply, may I ask whether he realises that a very complicated situation has been created by the increased cost of living, by the increased cost of transport, and by the so-called economic pause, and that that has increased the great injustice on a class of people who deserve better treatment? Will he take that into account with a view to rectifying the situation and giving them better treatment?

It was in order to eliminate any possibility of confusion on those grounds that, as the hon. and learned Gentleman will see when he studies my Answer, the figures were given in real rather than in cash terms.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance why statistics relating to the numbers of retirement pensioners are not available for particular areas; and if he will take steps to obtain them.

Because records of our 5½ million retirement pensioners are held centrally. Great expense and delay would be involved in breaking up the figures in relation to particular areas in which pensioners reside, and in keeping them up-to-date as pensioners move. The answer to the last part of the Question is, therefore, No, Sir.

Does the right hon. Gentleman remember that in a recent Answer to me he admitted that there was a very serious gap in his information services with regard to the matter referred to in my Question? Will he look into this again with a view to seeing that the fullest possible information is available to old-age pensioners and to the other people affected by that gap?

I do not think that that Answer of mine agreed with the hon. and learned Gentleman that there was a serious gap because the figures available about the numbers of pensioners do not coincide with Parliamentary constituencies.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will study the experience of two clinics in London and Scotland, details of which have been sent to him, regarding the under-nourishment of many old-age pensioners; and if he will institute a national inquiry into the matter.

I have seen with interest reports on these two clinics at Twickenham and Rutherglen, which deal with the general physical and mental health of the old. There is nothing in them, however, to suggest that existing sources of information on nutrition are inadequate.

Is it not clear from the experience of these clinics that the pension of £2 17s. 6d. is so low as to cause under-nourishment and ill-health to many elderly people? Should not the basic pension be sufficient at least to provide enough to eat?

The hon. Member may know that the report made in respect of the Rutherglen clinic specifically stated that malnutrition was not a problem of any magnitude. Taken as a whole, I think that that is the inference to be drawn from both these clinics.

The right hon. Gentleman has read the script. Is it not clear that half of the 300 people regularly attending the London clinic are suffering from under-nourishment because of lack of money? Is it not clear that when they are provided with a better diet, supplementary foods and so on, their health and whole bearing alter?

The hon. Member is referring to the script of a certain broadcast to which he was good enough to draw my attention. The value of that broadcast is easily gauged when one recalls that in the course of it there was presented an old lady who was said to be an example of pride preventing an application for National Assistance but who, the National Assistance Board tells me, was much more sensible than the producer of the broadcast and had been drawing it for years.

Would not the Minister agree that food represents a much higher percentage of the total outlay of old-age pensioners than of the average member of the community? Does it not follow, therefore, that from time to time and at frequent intervals there should be a new survey to make quite certain that even the slightest change in the cost of living does not produce a serious situation for old-age pensioners? Will he look again at the need for a further inquiry?

The hon. Member will be aware of the considerable sources of information which we have. There is the fact that in the course of a year the officers of the National Assistance Board pay no fewer than 6 million visits to peoples' homes, and the fact that a very careful survey, with a special category in respect of pensioner households, is produced by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

Have the right hon. Gentleman's sources of information on this question and the general circumstances of pensioners led him to the conclusion that we should be perfectly satisfied with the present rates of pension and National Assistance?

The Government will never be satisfied. As the hon. Member knows, it is part of our policy to see that pensioners share in the increasing prosperity which the sound economic measures of my right hon. and learned Friend will bring about.

Since he is never to be satisfied, does that mean that at the moment the right hon. Gentleman is dissatisfied? What will he do to remove that dissatisfaction?

You will allow me, Mr. Speaker, to put it in the form of a quotation and, therefore, I hope, be in order—

"None of your damned Scottish metaphysics".

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance to what extent the policy set out in Command Paper No. 1626, paragraph 7, that the increased cost of living cannot in the present circumstances be regarded as providing a sound basis for an increase of wages and salaries, will affect the basis on which increases are given to retirement pensioners.

The factors affecting the decision as to what is the appropriate level for contributions and benefits under the National Insurance Scheme were fully set out in a reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Salford East (Mr. Frank Allaun) on 14th November, 1960.

May I ask my right hon. Friend whether consideration will be given to increases in pensions after 1st April? I think my right hon. Friend will agree with me that these pensioners have been very patient. As far as I understand, they have not brought any deputations to try to get increases. They have observed the pay pause. Can my right hon. Friend give them any hope for the future?

My hon. Friend will be aware that the rate of retirement pension was raised as recently as last April to the highest level in real terms yet reached.

Is not the Minister aware that the rise in the cost of living and the increases in wages, profits and dividends since the last increase in old-age pensions justify him giving some increase to the old-age pensioners now?

I am surprised at that suggestion by the hon. Gentleman, in the face of the fact that the level reached as recently as last April was the highest in real terms yet attained and that the level today is higher than at any time previous to that.

What is more to the point is what are the Government's intentions towards retirement pensioners and other National Insurance beneficiaries in the next phase of the pay pause? Is the pension pause to come to an end when the pay pause comes to an end? What is the intermediate phase for pensioners in relation to the intermediate phase for wage and salary earners?

The Answer to which I referred my hon. Friend in my main Answer is clear as to the considerations affecting decisions on this matter.

That means, according to the Answer to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, and which I have here, that the cost of living still remains the first factor to be considered.

The cost of living is certainly one of the factors to be considered with the others enumerated in the Answer with which providentially the hon. Gentleman has armed himself.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance in how many cases in the 12 months to the latest convenient date applications for war disability pensions have been made and refused under the seven years' rule which places the onus of proof upon the applicants.

The latest available estimated figures are those for the year ending 30th June, 1961, in which some 1,250 claims made over seven years after death or discharge resulted in awards and some 1,460 were rejected.

Will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider the position in relation to this rule, in view of the fact that the Statute of Limitations was provided to be used normally as a reasonable device to prevent fraudulent claims, or claims made after so long a period that the evidence has been destroyed? In his case, the right hon. Gentleman nearly always has all the evidence, and this rule is being used to prevent applicants from maintaining a claim from chronic diseases the causes of which are unknown.

A good deal of that supplementary question relates to the next Question to be asked by the hon. Gentleman. However, it does not seem to me that the figures I have just given the hon. Gentleman, when one remembers that they relate to service which in the great majority of cases ended at least 16½ years ago, indicate that there is anything the matter.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether, in view of the hardship caused to applicants for war disability pensions caused by the seven-year rule, he will now introduce measures for its abrogation.

As the hon. Member is, I am sure, aware, even in the case of claims outside the seven year period the claimant is entitled to succeed if on the evidence there is any reasonable doubt whether the conditions are satisfied. I do not think there is any hardship. On the contrary, this procedure compares favourably from the applicant's point of view with procedure in the civil courts or before other tribunals, and is an example of the preference deliberately, and, in my view, properly, accorded to disabled ex-Service men.

Would it not be more simple, practical and prudent for the right hon. Gentleman to obtain the necessary sanction to send a circular to pensions tribunals and appeal tribunals to say that they were under no obligation to apply this rule in cases where they considered that great hardship would result or where the operation of the rule might prevent justice being done?

I could only consider that if I were satisfied that the present rule was working unfairly and inequitably. As I have said, I do not think that it is.

I will bring a case along to the right hon. Gentleman.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what was the total amount of National Assistance paid to gypsies and other travellers in Darenth Woods, near Dartford, for the two weeks ended 20th January prior to eviction; and what was the comparable amount for the two weeks ended 3rd February following eviction to the grass verge of the A.2 trunk road by the Dartford Rural District Council.

£37 12s. and £288 2s., respectively.

Does not that information, for which I thank the right hon. Gentleman, show, when only six people out of 300 were on National Assistance, how unjust it was to say that they were lazy layabouts living on public funds? Does not the sharp increase in the number on National Assistance after they were evicted emphasise the callousness of the local council which, in the middle of winter, put them on the side of a trunk road, where it was particularly difficult for them to earn their living?

I am responsible only for what I say and, as the hon. Member will realise, I never said anything of the sort. It is not for me to comment on the operations of a local authority.

It is pretty obvious, though.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what decision has been reached by the National Assistance Board about the need for assistance for the purchase by the owners of oats, chaff and hay in order to avoid undue suffering for the 25 horses and one mule which, because of the dangerous traffic hazards, have to be tethered for long periods by short lengths of chain on the verge of the A.2 trunk road, near Dartford, as the result of the eviction of the gypsies from Darenth Woods by the Dartford Rural District Council, on 20th January.

The Board informs me that it has so far made no payments for this purpose. Applications from the gypsies who are receiving assistance for the maintenance of their families, on the grounds that the payments made to them are insufficient to meet all their commitments, have been and will be considered in the light of all the circumstances.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that statement, but will he keep very much in mind that to a gypsy, whose home is on wheels, a horse is very important and must be kept in good condition? After three weeks by the side of the road some of these horses are looking half-starved, and if the position—which is revolting in Britain in 1962—continues very much longer, there will be suffering amongst some of the animals due to the callousness of the local council.

In general, of course, relief of hardship amongst animals is not one of the responsibilities of the National Assistance Board, and I therefore prefer not to add to the Answer which I gave. As the hon. Gentleman is well aware, a great deal of what he said in that supplementary question, whatever its merits or demerits, is not for me.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what proposals he has for amending the regulations relating to persons who are off work through illness and who, due to these regulations, lose the first three days of benefit, because they are off for a period of less than 14 days.

None, Sir.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that pursuance of this policy appears to be "penny wise and pound foolish", inasmuch as many people who have slight illnesses stay away from work for the whole fourteen days merely in order to get the benefit of the three days' waiting time? As that is not in the national interests, would it not be wise if the Minister reconsidered his policy?

The hon. Member will know that there have been waiting days in respect of sickness benefit since National Insurance began. Indeed, before 1948 they were absolute, whatever the ultimate period of sickness. I am bound to say that nowadays, when more and more good employers make up wages for considerable periods of sickness, the case for doing away with waiting days is weaker than it ever was.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will publish a comparative table of old age or retirement and other pensions being paid in Great Britain and in the six countries in the European Economic Community, on the basis of information made available to him in the course of the current negotiations for British entry into the Common Market.

The social security provisions of the members of the European Economic Community are, of course, fully publicised, and no additional information has been or could have been made available in the way suggested. The remaining part of the Question does not therefore arise.

Do I understand that the Minister will not publish the comparative statement for which I have asked and is merely referring me to other authorities? Is he not aware from recent publications that the rate for Belgian old-age pensioners has been raised to a much higher comparative level than ours? Is he making no preparation to meet the needs of the Six when we join them, when we shall have to harmonise our social security schemes upwards so as to meet the highest prevailing among them?

The last part of that question goes far beyond that on the Order Paper. The hon. Member asked me to publish information on the basis of that made available to me in the course of negotiations. What I have said is that no such information has been or could have been produced in that way, because it has already been published. If the House wishes, I am quite prepared to place in the Library a statement of the social security arrangements of the Six, although I must warn the House that it will be extremely bulky as these schemes are very elaborate and detailed, and that the comparison which the hon. Member desires is extremely difficult to make because of the differences in relationship to earnings and as to cover.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will alter the name of the National Assistance Board to Supplementary Pensions Board.

No, Sir.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that many decent people, poor but proud, still believe, however illogically, that there is some stigma about applying for National Assistance? We all come across cases of that kind. Would it not help these deserving citizens if the name were changed as I have suggested, as it is obvious that it is impossible to live on the present basic scale of pension without some form of supplementation?

There is something in what the hon. Gentleman says, but his suggestion is not practicable when one remembers that the National Assistance Board makes about 700,000 weekly payments to people who are not receiving a pension to which this could be a supplement. I think that we have already largely met the substance of the matter by renaming the order books on which supplements are paid to retirement pensioners.

Bearing in mind that what we want to do is to induce people to go to the National Assistance Board, where that is necessary, will the right hon. Gentleman consider taking a long-term view of the reorganisation of local offices and absorbing local National Assistance Board offices into offices of the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance, and so making them one local service?

I very much doubt whether that idea, which the right hon. Gentleman himself emphatically rejected in 1946, would help towards the end he has in mind. I would prefer to say that the very good reputation which the National Assistance Board and its officers have built up for humanity and discretion in their extremely difficult job is an asset which I should be reluctant to forfeit.

asked the Minister of Power whether he will give a general direction to the Electricity Council that area boards should not advertise in future until they are sure of being able to meet the demands of their customers.

No, Sir. I do not think that the percentage of the Board's gross turnover, spent on promotional advertising is excessive, and the aim of much of it is to make better use of installed plant during off-peak periods.

May I ask my right hon. Friend to confirm that in the last financial year more than £2 million was spent on advertising? Many people, especially those on Merseyside, consider this to be in the nature of a false prospectus. Will my right hon. Friend consider spending a proportion of that money on sending out questionnaires to householders to find out exactly what they have in the way of electrical appliances in their homes so that bad estimations may remain less bad in future?

The figure of £2 million is the total spent on advertising electricity. The sum spent on promotional advertising, which I think is what my hon. Friend has in mind, is £850,000, or about 0·1 per cent. of the whole turnover. As regards the second part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, I will ask the Electricity Council to look into this and make a report to me.

asked the Minister of Power whether he will give a general direction to the Electricity Council that area boards should speed up the erection of sub-stations in areas that have recently suffered from electricity power cuts or failures.

I am satisfied that the area boards are building these sub-stations as quickly as they can.

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that these sub-stations cost only between £6,000 and £9,000, and that much of this money could be provided from savings on advertisements? Is he aware that there is a general feeling in some areas that the area boards are rather complacent in this way?

I do not think that the area board in the area which my hon. Friend represents is complacent, and the chairman of the council recently gave an interview expressing concern about this matter, saying that they were pushing on with the building of sub-stations as quickly as they possibly could.

asked the Minister of Power if he will give a general direction to the Electricity Council to take out overall insurance policies to protect consumers whose machinery and appliances are damaged as a result of power failures.

No, Sir. Legislation recognises that some failures cannot be avoided, and in such cases the boards are protected against prosecutions for the statutory penalty. The Council is aware of this problem and is considering what can be done. It proposes first to approach the manufacturers' and contractors' associations to see if protective devices can be improved and more widely installed.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that several of my constituents have had domestic appliances damaged by voltage faults and failures? Is he further aware that the Chairman of the North-Western Area Electricity Board has said that consumers should take out private insurance policies to cover themselves against this? As the electricity boards are a nationalised monopoly, and some of the failures are due to human error, surely it is not out of the question to ask that the boards should at least take out overall policies to cover the failures due to human error by the people working in a nationalised industry?

I do not think that it is right for my hon. Friend to suggest that the responsibility should be placed on the Electricity Council, or indeed on the Generating Board, because they are not in direct contact with consumers. Area boards, which are in direct contact with consumers, have certain responsibilities and obligations which can be legally enforced, but I do not think that it would be possible to do as my hon. Friend suggests and place on area boards the responsibility for any failure for whatever reason it may take place.

asked the Minister of Power if he will make a statement giving particulars of the steel, tinplate and sheet works which have been completely or partially closed in Wales and Monmouthshire in the past twelve months, together with the number of workers displaced in each case.

The Iron and Steel Board has received official notification of the closure of five works in the last twelve months and, with permission, I will circulate details in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is the Minister aware that men are now being displaced from the old steel works long before they are absorbed into the new ones, and that the situation is becoming critical? Secondly, will he consult the Iron and Steel Board about the rather stupid policy, said to be adopted by some steel owners in the new works, of refusing to employ anyone over 50 years of age, and sometimes even over 40 years of age, thereby losing the valuable work and service of these men, so necessary to meet the economic needs of the country? Will he look into the matter? These two problems are causing deep concern in Wales and elsewhere.

I will certainly put the right hon. Member's second point to the Iron and Steel Board. As for the first, I do not think that any serious unemployment is resulting from these closures. In any case, as he knows, this is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour.

The right hon. Member says that no serious unemployment is resulting from these closures. Will he look at the Answer given to me by his right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour last week, in which he said that closures were causing very serious unemployment and short-time working?

I will certainly refer the right hon. Gentleman's question to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, but I was informed that the unemployment that has so far resulted has not been serious.

asked the Minister of Power if he will make representations to traders to reduce the price of smokeless fuels, in view of the fact that at present it is hindering the successful implementation of smoke control orders.

No, Sir. If the hon. Gentleman has any evidence that traders' margins are excessive, I will certainly consider it.

Is the Minister aware that in the cold weather many pensioners and low income families are having a hard time and going without fires because they cannot afford the fantastic prices in a smoke-controlled area, and that this is causing widespread hardship and indignation? Secondly, why should smokeless fuel cost 11s. 9d. or more a bag, and coke 10s., which is more than the price for coal, although valuable chemicals have been extracted? Coke always used to cost far less than coal.

I can only tell the hon. Gentleman that the last time this was examined, which admittedly was three or four years ago, no evidence was adduced that the margins that the merchants were charging on smokeless fuels were excessive. If the hon. Gentleman has any information and evidence that he would like me to consider, I will certainly look at it.

asked the Minister of Power whether he proposes to sanction an increase in the price of coal.

Proposals for increases in the prices of certain coals used by industry were put to the Industrial Coal Consumers' Council on 27th November, 1961, and came into effect on 1st January, 1962. The National Coal Board has put proposals for certain increases to the Domestic Coal Consumers' Council and I am now awaiting the Council's observations.

As an increase in the price of industrial coal at the moment is bound to have a retarding effect on our exports, particularly shipbuilding, will the right hon. Gentleman consider this again? Does he realise that shipbuilders are now facing impending increases in the price of steel in addition to the price of coal, immensely higher valuations, and increases in the price of electricity? Does he think that this gives them a fair chance in the competitive world in which shipbuilding has to live today?

I cannot undertake to reconsider the price increase which came into effect on 1st January. As regards the other proposals for increases, I shall await the observations of the Domestic Coal Consumers' Council and then come to my decision.

On the domestic side, will the right hon. Gentleman consider particularly the case of the old folk who are paying more for coal at the present time than their meagre allowance warrants? Will he consider a preferential rate for them?

That consideration will be very much in the mind both of the Council and myself when we come to consider these matters.

asked the Minister of Power when he will give effect to the recommendation of the Domestic Coal Consumers' Council that all traders should state the groups of coal they sell, irrespective of size of delivery, so as to bring abuse of grouping and price within the scope of the Merchandise Marks Acts.

I have had discussions with the National Coal Board and the coal trade about ways of achieving the objectives which the Domestic Coal Consumers' Council had in mind. Plans to do this are well advanced and I think an announcement may be made quite soon.

I appreciate the hopeful note in the Minister's reply, but will he bear in mind that the answer which is often given, namely, that the consumer has the choice of going to another merchant, is insufficient protection and does not deal with the principle of the matter? Is he further aware of the difficulties of those who purchase only small quantities of coal—2 cwt. or 3 cwt.? They have no guarantee that the coal which they purchase at the higher price is the grade of coal which they should get. The reply of the merchants is that the blame attaches to the National Coal Board, but this is quite wrong. Will the right hon. Gentleman do all that he can to defend the Board against such allegations?

I know that the hon. Member has been interested in this matter for a long time. I hope that he will be satisfied if I am able to make an announcement in the near future, and that he will also be satisfied by any scheme that I am then able to announce.

asked the Minister of Aviation what reconsideration he is giving to developing Abbotsinch as the replacement for Renfrew Airport.

None, Sir.

Is the hon. Member aware that development at Abbotsinch is so slow that it has not even reached the stage of crawling? Does he realise that at Abbotsinch we have 773 acres of ground as compared with 232 acres at Renfrew, and that there, if he so desires, he can develop an airport for the future—something which Britain has never yet had? Is he further aware that every airport in use today was out of date before it was completed?

The hon. Member often draws my attention to things of which I am not always totally aware, and I pay the closest attention to what he says. As to the speed of development at Abbotsinch, we expect to be able to move in there before the end of 1964. Renfrew will continue to be in operation until Abbotsinch is ready.

Is the Minister aware that on frequent occasions in recent months passengers have had to be diverted from Renfrew to Prestwick because of weather conditions? Is he further aware that the same weather problem will exist at Abbotsinch? Does not he agree that the practical solution would be to develop Prestwick?

I am sorry that my Department cannot take responsibility for difficulties of weather which are liable to occur at any airport.

All this shows the danger of giving information in Questions.

asked the Minister of Aviation what steps he intends taking in the interests of safety to check the competence of light aircraft instructors and trainees of aircraft with an all-up weight of less than 5,000 lb., in view of the high accident rate of this category of aircraft disclosed in CAP 176 entitled "A Survey of the Accidents to Aircraft of the United Kingdom" in the year ended 31st December 1960, a copy of which has been sent to him by the hon. Member for Gillingham.

Discussions are proceeding with the Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators, which exercises control on my behalf over flying instructors, with the object of ensuring that a high standard of instruction is maintained. My right hon. Friend intends to make an announcement shortly.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he has yet selected a close support military transport aircraft for service with the Royal Air Force.

No, Sir.

What ails my right hon. Friend? Was it not demonstrated as long ago as last May that the Handley Page Dart Herald satisfies the needs of the R.A.F. in this matter? What is he waiting for? Does not he welcome the fact that this aircraft has been developed without the aid of Government subsidies? Have the Government moved so far to the left now that they no longer view even private enterprise with favour?

This is no doubt an admirable aircraft, but it is not the only one being considered.

Is there not a very serious gap in the availability of transport aircraft for the Forces at the moment? Is it not a fact that the only short-range transport aircraft available at present either have too small a cargo cross-section or are obsolete? Is not this a matter which calls for urgent consideration?

There is a requirement for this type of aircraft, and it will undoubtedly be met.

Is it not almost a record that an aeroplane should be available for the Royal Air Force before it is obsolete?

Three types of aircraft a re available.

asked the Minister of Health what was the number of persons suffering from tuberculosis under treatment at the end of 1961; and what percentage of these were immigrants.

I will send my hon. and gallant Friend the figure for persons registered with tuberculosis clinics at December, 1961, as soon as it is available. The returns do not distinguish between immigrants and others.

I understand that in recent years there has been an increase in tuberculosis. I appreciate that my hon. Friend cannot at present differentiate between immigrants and others, but will she look into this matter carefully in the future?

No, Sir. This is a health service and we have no reason to ask for the nationalities of the people concerned.

asked the Minister of Health how many welfare clinics are operating under his Department in England and Wales; how many persons are employed by these clinics; and what is the total cost to the National Health Service.

None, Sir; this is a local authority service.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that far too many welfare clinics are operating at present? Does not she agree that in many cases these are abused, in that those who really need them do not get a look in? Surely this is one major economy the possibility of which can be looked into in the future?

I am absolutely certain from my experience of local authorities, that maternity and child welfare clinics provide an excellent service. Contrary to what my hon. and gallant Friend has stated, attendance at these clinics continues to increase.

asked the Minister of Health by what criteria the Registrar-General in Somerset House grants and refuses permission for historians and genealogists to consult the census records subsequent to 1851.

Information from these records up to 1921 is supplied only with the consent of the parties concerned or their descendants.

Is my hon. Friend aware that my understanding is that up to and including 1851 these records are available to anybody and that many researchers understood that as soon as a hundred years had passed they would be open to them? The 1861 returns have not yet been revealed, which is an annoyance and an embarrassment, apparently, to many researchers.

There was no pledge of confidentiality, I understand, for censuses up to 1851, but for the succeeding decades such a pledge has been given and the records are available only for specific purposes.

Is that in perpetuity? Does that pledge last for ever?

Not necessarily. I think that perhaps at the end of a hundred years the matter might be considered, but it is a matter for the Public Record Office.

Will my hon. Friend answer a Question about it in a hundred years' time?

I should love to.

asked the Minister of Health what was the cost of each pack of smallpox vaccine USP prepared by the National Drug Company of Philadelphia, and supplied to the National Health Service, containing ten tubes, ten capillaries of vaccine, ten scarifying needles and one rubber bulb; what was the total number imported from the United States of America during the last twelve months; and what was the total cost to the National Health Service.

100,000 packs. It is not the practice to disclose prices.

Is the Minister satisfied that this rather elaborate practice is the best way of getting this vaccine? Is he able to get supplies from British producers rather than from American?

These were a very useful reinforcement of our reserves. I can say that they were no dearer than our general supplies.

The Minister has indicated that it is not his practice to state prices. Does he not think that the House is entitled to some information about prices in respect of these huge orders of vaccines and other things necessary for the health of the people which have been ordered from abroad?

Yes, certainly, and I have answered Questions on the cost of supplies generally. But it is obviously undesirable to give the prices for particular consignments where competition between the suppliers is desirable.

asked the Minister of Health when he proposes to institute a general campaign for vaccination against smallpox in Cardiff and South Wales.

This is not the intention. My policy is to encourage the routine vaccination of all infants and of adults whose work may bring them into contact with infected persons or material.

Is the Minister aware that I thoroughly disagree with him? Will he please reconsider this decision and step up the propaganda and publicity so that if there is another outbreak of smallpox we shall not experience once again long queues of worried, anxious people waiting to be vaccinated, when sometimes there are insufficient supplies of vaccine? Why not take time by the forelock in this matter?

The important thing is that, if possible, 100 per cent. of infants should be vaccinated as a routine, as part of the general immunity which children aught to be acquiring. I am glad to say that in Cardiff the acceptance rate for infant vaccination has been increasing in the last few years and is well above the level for England and Wales and for Wales. I hope that Cardiff will go on with this good work, because it is the right approach.

What is the Minister doing to ensure a higher rate of infant vaccination? Even if he is reluctant to go as far as my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) suggests, will he not at any rate see whether he can do something through the schools medical service to get children vaccinated who are amongst the 60 per cent. who were not vaccinated as infants?

Yes. There is a continuous campaign to press immunisation. I believe that each campaign for any kind of immunisation helps with the whole package. In the last few years the increase in immunisation against poliomyelitis has undoubtedly improved the figures for immunity against smallpox. This is something which has to go forward as a whole, and it is being pressed through and on local health authorities.

asked the Minister of Health what machinery exists in his Department to receive, distribute and act upon information distributed by the World Health Authority regarding smallpox epidemics.

This information goes to port health authorities direct.

Is the Minister aware that the various medical officers, including the medical officers in Birmingham, are receiving the World Epidemiological Report weekly, which shows that as early as November and December there were about 300 cases a week in Karachi, with 30 deaths a week, but that they received no guidance at all from the Ministry? As late as only a fortnight ago, when an aeroplane was diverted unexpectedly to Elmdon, the medical officer of health had no guidance at all as to how he should deal with the matter, and in Birmingham he took the law into his own hands, particularly in respect of a Chinese gentleman who had travelled across the world. Is not this a ridiculous state of affairs?

There is no question of his taking the law into his own hands. The responsibility and the powers are his. This is the duty of the port health authorities, who receive regularly the information which is necessary for them to discharge it. It was only in the third week of December that the figures disseminated by the World Health Organisation showed an abnormal situation in Karachi.

asked the Minister of Health which European countries are now demanding international certificates of vaccination against smallpox from British visitors to their countries; and whether he will insist on reciprocal arrangements being enforced against their nationals.

According to my information, all except Austria, Denmark, the Republic of Ireland, Norway and Switzerland. The answer to the second part of the question is "No, Sir".

Is it not a fact that there are at present serious outbreaks of smallpox in the Congo and in Liberia, and that Europeans in contact with these countries could carry smallpox when coming to Great Britain? Therefore, will not the right hon. Gentleman protect the British people against the danger of smallpox from Europeans and other travellers, instead of pretending that the only danger comes from Commonwealth immigrants?

As our experience has shown, the requirement of international certificates is in itself not a protection against the importation of smallpox. But there is in Europe hardly any smallpox at all, and, although these countries are fully within their rights under the international agreement in requiring these certificates, I do not believe that our protection would be increased by doing so.

If the international certificate of vaccination is no protection, why are France, West Germany and other countries demanding the production of such certificates from British travellers? Clearly the right hon. Gentleman is contradicting himself. Have not the British people the same right to protection from European carriers as Europeans have from British carriers?

Yes, we have the right to do this, but there is no question of reprisals in this matter. As there have been cases of smallpox in this country, these countries were entitled under the international agreement to make this requirement.

asked the Minister of Health why the figures of the number of cases of rickets in the years 1938, 1939, 1958, and 1959 are not available.

Because rickets is not a notifiable disease.

Is the hon. Lady aware of the very large decrease in the incidence of rickets in the years mentioned in the Question and the fact that one of the reasons for it, apart from the rising standards of living, has been the orange juice and vitamin resources of local welfare clinics? In view of the fact that the use of these has dropped by 70 per cent. throughout the country, will the Minister reconsider the question of the charges on vitamin foods, cod liver oil and orange juice?

I do not think that that arises out of the Question. I agree that gross deforming rickets have been disappearing, and I am very happy to note it, but when we consider the causes of rickets we find that there are a number, of which dietary deficiency is only one. There has been a survey of cases of rickets caused by dietary deficiency, and I understand that figures are being obtained for 1960 and the first half of 1961, so that some information should be available in the future.

asked the Minister of Health what delay there has been in the repayment by his Department of chemists' accounts in recent months; and if he will make a statement.

So far as I know, twelve executive councils in the last three months have been unable to pay the full amount due by the normal date. I understand that the delay nowhere exceeded four weeks. In all these cases substantial payments on account were authorised by my Department.

My right hon. Friend will recognise that this has come just at a time when the cut in remuneration is taking effect, which is unfortunate from the point of view of public relations? Could my right hon. Friend make it clear that any individual case where a pharmacist is embarrassed can be met by the executive council, in an individual case and not in relation to the whole of the community, making a payment on account?

My Department is always ready to authorise payments on account when executive councils apply for them. My hon. Friend will, I know, recognise that the problem here—and it arises particularly in these months—is the abnormal sickness and staff losses in the pricing offices.

asked the Minister of Health on how many occasions during the last six months he has sought deferment of the consideration of pay claims by Whitley Councils, or otherwise intervened in the normal processes of negotiation.

I have on two occasions asked management sides to seek deferment pending further guidance to my representatives. I do not accept that this is intervention in the normal processes.

How does the Minister reconcile these actions with the assurance that he gave in the communication that he sent last August to Whitley Councils in which he said that normal negotiations should proceed subject only to a reservation about the date of implementation? Does he think this sort of action is going to encourage confidence in the Whitley system?

It is a normal feature of these negotiations that the management side and my representatives on the management side should wish to take my guidance, and there may be circumstances in which that necessitates my asking for a deferment.

It is a different matter if the management side asks for the right hon. Gentleman's guidance, rather than the right hon. Gentleman himself initiating this kind of delay.

It depends on the management side. I can only request them to make a deferment and they have to consider whether it is reasonable to do so.

asked the Minister of Health what is the present shortage of nurses in hospitals; and what plans he has to recruit sufficient nurses to meet the requirements of his new hospital plan.

No precise estimate of shortage can be given; but I understand that just under 20,000 vacancies for hospital nurses of all grades were current at Ministry of Labour offices in England and Wales at 31st December, last. The Hospital Plan will not increase the nursing staff required.

Can the Minister say to what extent the educational requirement for entry into the nursing profession is affecting, or will affect, recruitment? Can he also say whether the number of pupil-enrolled nurses coming along is anywhere up to expectations?

As the hon. Member knows, the question of the educational qualification is not a matter for me. Recruitment figures in respect of students of all types show an upward trend.

Will the Minister confirm or deny the suggestion made very recently to me in a letter that it is possible for the domestic staff, the unskilled staff if I may put it in that way, in hospitals to earn far more than the professional nursing staff? If this is a fact, would it not be one of the major causes of the lack of recruitment of professional staff in nursing?

It is not possible to institute a comparison merely by looking at weekly pay between one grade and another. As I have said, the strength of the whole nursing force is at its highest ever at the moment and the figures for student intake are on the uptrend.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the concern of hospital management committees at their failure to attract people of suitable educational attainment as nurses, physiotherapists and radiologists and what steps he will take towards an increase in wages for such staff to avoid a breakdown in the health service.

I have no evidence of any such failure generally. Pay is a matter for the appropriate Whitley Council in the first instance.

Does the Minister honestly believe that we can expect educated men and women of the calibre we require to fulfil the functions outlined in the Question at the rates of pay prescribed by the Council and confirmed by himself? If we can have an intervention in the Wages Council to stop wages from going up, why cannot we have one the other way round, when every hospital in the country is suffering as a result of rates of this kind?

Whatever the hon. Member expects, the fact is that young men and women are entering all these professions as students at an increasing rate—a rate which has been sharply increasing in the last two or three years.

Surely the Minister cannot be as complacent as he sounds about the intake, for example, of physiotherapists and radiologists and a number of other categories? Is he not aware that he has a responsibility to the Service, apart from the fact that the Whitley Council fixes the rates? What is the present position about the nurses' claim which came before the Whitley Council as long ago as August?

The last is a separate question. As for recruitment, obviously we should always like to recruit faster, whatever the rate were, but I have placed on record the fact that the increase in the number of students, for example in physiotherapy, in the last two or three years has been extremely sharp.

Is the Minister aware that the British Medical Association is also concerned about the position of the various groups of medical auxiliaries and supports them in their request for upgrading of status and conditions of service?

Yes, but I think that these matters of pay are best dealt with by this machinery.

asked the Minister of Health if he will state the estimated aggregate cost of the capital development proposals submitted to him last year by regional boards and boards of governors for inclusion in the Hospital Plan.

For the period to 1970–71, about 60 per cent. above that of the proposals included in the Plan.

Does not this indicate that the proposals included in the Plan represent a very substantial cut in what hospital boards and boards of governors thought was desirable for a ten-year hospital programme? Is this not the reason why may of them are very disappointed with the outcome?

No, Sir. I do not believe that many of them were disappointed with the outcome. All the evidence and indications are the reverse. It was clearly right, in asking hospital authorities to put forward a programme, not to seek to limit them unduly in the financial assumptions they should make. It was much better that they should put forward a programme which might have to be extended over a somewhat longer period. This is what happened here. But it was the right way to go about this operation.

asked the Minister of Labour what consideration he has given to the setting up of emergency training centres for young people out of work.

In general, the demand for young workers exceeds the supply. My Ministry does, however, regularly provide training courses for disabled unemployed young persons at commercial and technical colleges, at residential training centres, and at Government training centres.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are very few openings for apprenticeship training in the North-East? Does he not think that if schemes of this kind were introduced, they would be a means of alleviating the position, taking the young people off the streets and enabling them to receive a form of training which would make them ready when such apprenticeship openings arose?

I think the hon. Gentleman is aware that compared with 1960 we had something like 30 per cent. more school leavers last Christmas, and that there are, taking the nation as a whole, something like two vacancies for every young person at present unemployed. My own youth employment officers are doing all they can to see that these people get jobs.

asked the Minister of Labour how many boys and girls, respectively, who left school at Christmas in the Billingham and Stockton areas have found employment; and how many are currently registered as unemployed.

Two hundred and thirty-two boys and 255 girls are known to have left school in these areas at Christmas, 1961; 35 boys and 29 girls were still unemployed on 9th February.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the situation is becoming very serious indeed and that parents, along with the education authorities, are very concerned? Does he not think that some more positive action ought to be taken, even if it means consultation between his Department and the Board of Trade, which I have advocated in this House on many occasions? Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that the time has come when he ought to consult with the Board of Trade to see what can be done?

The hon. Gentleman knows that I am in very close touch with the President of the Board of Trade on the matter that he has in mind. I think he will also agree that training opportunities in this area in which he has a particular interest are, if anything, rather better than in the rest of the country because of the preponderance of heavy industry there. I do not want the hon. Gentleman to feel that I am not concerned with what he says, but I think he will find that we shall be able to find employment for these young people whose interests he has so much at heart.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether. in reconsidering Government policy with regard to meat production in this country and in order to reduce its dependence on subsidies, he will urgently review the possibility of establishing machinery which will result in a more rational pattern of modern slaughterhouses and factories which will ensure the application of the most modern methods for the treatment and inspection of meat, as well as its efficient distribution, and the better use of by-products.

This Question covers a wide field and I would ask my hon. Friend to await a statement which I shall be making in the debate on the Supplementary Estimate later today.