asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether, in setting up the commission on the public schools, he will have consultations, formal or informal, with the joint working party of the Headmasters' Conference and the Governing Bodies Association, especially with regard to the terms of reference of the commission and the appointment of its chairman.

No, Sir. The terms of reference of the Commission and the choice of chairman are matters for which I must take responsibility.

Would it not be wise and timely, and a matter of great educational importance, for the Secretary of State to have some discussions, without committing himself, with the duly authorised representatives of the schools most concerned, who are as anxious as he is to get a Commission which will be well regarded in the educational world? In any event, may we take it that the Commission's terms of reference will include the direct grant schools?

The Headmasters' Conference and the Governing Bodies Association have both been good enough to put to me in writing certain views about the terms of reference, as have many other people and bodies, including many hon. Members. It would be wrong, in a case like this, for any Government to indulge in a round of consultations either about the terms of reference or the identity of the chairman. This must remain a matter for the Government.

Can my right hon. Friend inform the House when he expects to announce the membership and terms of reference of the Commission? Will the announcement be accompanied by a White Paper and will there be an opportunity for the House to debate it?

I hope to make an announcement shortly. I have not yet a clear view on the subject of a White Paper. The question of a debate is one for my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he is aware that widows' pensions, and separated wives' allowances, are taken into account when assessing grants payable to mature students in teacher training colleges, that married women receive £290 per annum without means test and that single women with family responsibilities receive no allowances in respect of aged parents; and if he will take steps to remove these anomalies and so aid teacher recruitment.

In all these cases the personal incomes of students and their dependants are taken into account when assessing grant. The only exceptional arrangement is that for married women their husband's income is ignored but, if they have an income of their own, they do not necessarily receive a grant as high as £295. My right hon. Friend recently reviewed the grants for widows and introduced an option which benefits many with dependent children. Single women are eligible to receive grants in respect of their aged parents, but this is dependent on the parents' income. I do not believe that there are serious anomalies here which impede teacher recruitment.

Does my hon. Friend not agree that it is a poor position whereby a married woman without an income of her own can receive a larger grant than widows or single women with family responsibilities? If I send him details of cases to indicate this, would he agree to look at this matter again?

I would certainly be prepared to look at any individual cases where my hon. Friend feels that there is a grievance.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science in view of the fact that the conduct of players and spectators of association football is damaging to national prestige, he will withhold his projected financial support for this sport until such conduct ceases.

No, Sir.

Does not the Joint Under-Secretary think that instead of encouraging us to take part in World Cup games, it would be much better to withdraw from international competitions until we can maintain the standard with which this country was once associated? And if he must spend money, can he not spend it on providing good referees instead of on these grounds?

I am happy to say that the excellent standard of our referees still continues, irrespective of the fact that they get no financial support from the Government. I believe that more good than harm is done by international sport. In any case, there is no justification for the assertion in the hon. Gentleman's Question that the conduct at the grounds where specific matches for the World Cup are to be played is as harmful as he says it is.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is Her Majesty's Government's policy on increasing the length of school terms or the number of hours per day with a view to eliminating home work; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend does not propose to alter the present requirement that a school should meet for at least four hundred sessions in each school year, less occasional holidays, divided into three or four terms. Experiments in the extension of the school day are being conducted in various parts of the country and information is being assembled about them as they progress. It is too early to come to conclusions upon them.

Will the Minister of State say whether he approves of the concept of relatively short working hours, or short working weeks, for schools, together with home work done away from the schools?

My view at the moment is that it is essential to accumulate evidence about the experiments that are taking place before considering any far-reaching changes in this direction. That is being done, and my right hon. Friend expects to enlist the aid of the Schools Council in assessing the results of these experiments.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proposals he has to review pay and conditions of the supervisors employed in children's residential special schools; and if he will make a statement.

None, Sir. This is a matter for employing authorities who, I understand, normally apply the scales and conditions negotiated for comparable types of staff through the appropriate Whitley machinery.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that is a thoroughly unsatisfactory reply? Would he not agree that the work of these supervisors is both responsible and difficult? Is he aware that there is a great deal of dissatisfaction in the service about the salary scales and conditions? Is he also aware that there are great differences in salaries paid by boroughs and counties? Would he not reconsider this subject, and also consider the possibility of appointing some committee of inquiry into the whole matter?

The latter point is another question. I am not aware that an Answer that is merely factual can be unsatisfactory. The fact is that this is a matter for the joint negotiating machinery, over which we have no direct departmental control.

In view of the thoroughly unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply to the Question, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if a decision has been reached in regard to the opening of museums and galleries so as to enable children to visit them after school and working hours.

I am greatly concerned to meet the point in the hon. Member's Question, but there are some outstanding matters still to be settled. I hope to make a definite statement early in the new year.

In view of the possible added expenditure due to lighting, overtime attendance and so on, would the hon. Lady try to persuade local education authorities to make a contribution?

Yes, Sir. We will collect money wherever we can. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman appreciates that there are difficult hurdles of staffing and so on to surmount, but I am very optimistic that we shall be making a real advance early next year. I hope that the good example of some museums will encourage all concerned in other parts of the country.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what steps have been taken to implement paragraph 53 of the White Paper. Policy on the Arts, Command Paper No. 2601, with a view to adapting historic houses in charge of Government Departments as centres of the arts.

The initiative in establishing arts centres must come from the local community. If proposals are made for the use as an arts centre of a suitable historic building in private ownership, its claims will be considered by the Arts Council. But proposals concerning historic houses in the Government's charge fall to be considered by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Public Building and Works.

Will the hon. Lady consider the experience of the Geffrye Museum in the Whitechapel Road where a craft centre is attached which makes the museum not only a centre for beautiful objects but of creative activity at the same time?

Yes, Sir. I certainly will. We want to encourage both local councils and the arts associations by the knowledge that we now have a building fund; that the Arts Council is sympathetic, and that the Minister of Public Building and Works will co-operate, but the initiative must come from the local councils or local associations.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science, what action is to be taken to assist the Birmingham City Local Education Authority to deal with the shortage of teachers in the city.

The shortage of teachers is national, and not confined to Birmingham. Direct responsibility for school staffing rests with the local education authorities. I can best reinforce the determined efforts which the Birmingham authority is already making by increasing the size of the national teaching force, and by ensuring that Birmingham and other shortage areas, receive their fair share of it.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, and for his action, but does he realise that if we are to improve and expand the educational service there will be a great need to recruit many more teachers. Would he not agree that from the point of view of national priorities, it is far better to spend more on training teachers than on the Territorials?

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend about the urgency of the matter, but it is as well not to be too pessimistic about what has already been accomplished. For example, the output from colleges of education next year will be 20,000, as compared with 16,500 this year. This is an indication of the very major efforts being made to satisfy the object my hon. Friend has in mind.

But could not the right hon. Gentleman take another step, which is to see that the £5 million worth of training college building projects held back for six months are started as soon as possible after that? Is he aware that many of us were deeply disappointed with his Answer on that subject last week.

Of course we should like to re-establish the investment programme for colleges of education, as for other things, as soon as the economic situation allows—there is no question of that at all—but I should not like to give the impression that this depends solely on investment in more teacher-training colleges. The fact is that there are many more urgent things which we can do and are trying to do to increase the supply of teachers.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what action he proposes to take to implement the Goodman Report on the London Orchestras, submitted to him by the Arts Council earlier this year.

The Government announced on 15th October that they had approved the principles on which the recommendations of the Goodman Committee were based. The scale of financial support is at present being considered in connection with the Arts Council Estimates for 1966–67. I will send the hon. Member a copy of the official statement.

Will the hon. Lady tell us when she hears from the Greater London Council, which is issuing a report, and when final arrangements are made will she undertake to inform the House?

Most certainly. We are, as I think the hon. Gentleman knows, in the final stages of negotiations.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what discussions he has had with the Arts Council regarding the financial position of the Royal Opera House.

Following discussions with the Arts Council, it has been decided that the annual grant to the Royal Opera House is in future to be a sum decided on in advance in the context of the total support for the arts, and not, as in the past, a percentage of takings at the box office.

Can the hon. Lady tell us what effect this is likely to have on the present position? Is she aware that the deficit in 1965–66 is likely to be about £230,000, rising to £242,000 in the next year?

I can assure the hon. Member that we intend to maintain the very highest standards in our Opera House. I can also assure him that we want to do something about the accumulated debt of previous years. We want to get the finances of the Opera House on a sound reasonable basis, but, at the same time, we will not have that done through lower standards.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this change will be generally regarded as an improvement on the old practice of association with the box office; and that it will give a greater degree of financial control over the whole business?

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will make afternoon school attendance optional below the age of 6.

The Central Advisory Council for Education (England) and the Central Advisory Council for Education (Wales) are considering primary education in all its aspects. My right hon. Friend is awaiting their Reports before considering the advisability of any change in the law as it affects primary school children.

Will the Minister bear in mind that many parents and teachers, as well as local authorities, consider that children of this very tender age get very little benefit from this kind of schooling; and that there would also be an advantage in regard to under-staffing of primary schools if the attendance of these children in the afternoon were made optional?

I would not necessarily accept the hon. Gentleman's conclusions in this regard. I can only say that all relevant considerations will be borne in mind when considering the Councils' Reports.

Can the hon. Gentleman give any news about the likely date of the Report of the Central Advisory Council, to which he has referred in his Answer?

My right hon. Friend expects to receive the Report for England next summer. As the Advisory Council for Wales did not start its deliberations until somewhat later, it follows that its Report may be received a little after the other Report.

asked the Secretary for Education and Science what steps he is taking to encourage mature adults to enter the teaching profession; and what facilities and grants are provided, particularly where such recruits have a family.

I am seeking to encourage mature students to enter teaching in the various ways described in my reply on 9th December to my hon. Friend the Member for Durham, North-West (Mr. Armstrong). The grants provided cover dependants, and there is also a special additional grant where the previous income was substantial.

Does my right hon. Friend consider it possible to have more day training colleges, which would enable more mature students to get initial training, with benefit to the State and possibly to themselves?

We are already planning to introduce three new day training colleges in 1966 and we are negotiating actively for another. As I pointed out last week to my hon. Friend the Member for Durham, North-West, the fact that a large number of "outposts" have been set up to existing colleges of education helps them to fulfil some part of the function of some large colleges.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if, in order to encourage married women teachers to return to teaching, he will consider recognition of those years spent bringing up a family for increments; and if he will also consider the acceptance of part-time teaching for superannuation purposes.

The first part of the Question is a matter for discussion and agreement in the Burnham Primary and Secondary Committee. On the second part, I have already established an official Working Party to consider the question of extending superannuation rights to part-time teachers.

Does my right hon. Friend realise that his reply will be encouraging to those who are anxious about this matter? Will he do all he can to urge the Working Party to report as soon as possible so that the 200,000 trained teachers who are not teaching can be encouraged to return?

Yes, Sir.

On the latter part of the question, does the Secretary of State realise the great importance that all of us on both sides attach to this matter? When is the Working Party likely to submit its report? The right hon. Gentleman will remember that I raised this matter on the Teachers' Superannuation Bill.

The Working Party has already had its first meeting. I cannot give a definite date for publication, but it is perfectly conscious—it has been made conscious—of the urgency of the subject.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many important works of art in the possession of the Government have changed hands in the past twelve months; and what was the nature of the transactions.

During the twelve months December, 1964 to November, 1965, 92 important works of art have been bought by the Government from outside parties.

Does the hon. Lady accept that it is desirable that the nation should have some knowledge of what is happening to what is, after all, national property? If so, could she tell the House whether it is the Government's intention to accept the recommendations made last September by the augmented reviewing committee on the export of works of art owned by public bodies?

As the hon. Lady knows, the annual report was published last month. All its recommendations and suggestions are being very carefully considered. She can rest assured that we are only too anxious that everything in this field should be subject to public scrutiny and be as widely known as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he is satisfied that the criteria recommended by the Waverley Committee in 1952 in connection with the issuing of licences for the export of antiques are sufficiently broad to protect the national stock; and if he will make a statement.

Yes, I consider the criteria to be satisfactory, although, of course, any proposal to export a work of art is liable to be controversial.

Does the hon. Lady realise that these criteria are exceedingly narrow, involving as they do in every case "outstanding" aesthetic or historical significance? In fact, last year nearly £7 million worth of antiques was exported from this country, but only seven applications came before the reviewing body and in respect of only three did that body take the view that it should recommend that no licence be issued.

Yes, but I know the hon. Lady realises that London is a great international mart. We have extremely expert advisers on these matters and we must try to keep an even balance between these two considerations.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will make a statement about the future of the National Youth Orchestra.

I understand that the Executive Committee of the Council responsible for the Orchestra met on 3rd December and decided to prepare an application for grant-aid from the Department, based on estimates of costs over the next five years. I expect to receive this in January.

Is it not time that we all decided whether we want to see this outstanding school for young musicians continue as successfully as it has done in the past? Is the hon. Lady aware that what this organisation now needs is either a grant or a building?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the thought he has expressed. We are determined that we shall not lose this wonderful effort, but as we have not yet even received the official application, the hon. Gentleman can hardly expect me to give a further answer.

The hon. Lady has expressed sympathy for the orchestra, but has she yet fixed it up with the Treasury?

I ask the hon. Lady to remember that I am optimistic and am a good trier. I do not think that she should be too depressed about it.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science why he has refused to allow the Horncastle Playing Fields Association permission to proceed with their project at their own expense, on the basis of receiving an assurance from him that a grant would ultimately be forthcoming.

Agreement to this request would be contrary to the present policy of the Government that all capital sports projects for which grants from public funds are required must be postponed for the time being, unless they are situated in development districts.

Is not that a little odd? Do the hon. Gentleman and his right hon. Friends have no faith in the protestations of the Government that they are going to get out of the mess which they themselves got into? Surely he ought to be able to back this project.

Sir, there are fairies at the bottom of my garden, too.

My hon. Friend refers to the exception of the development districts, but would he be kind enough to take into consideration also the interests of the overspill receiving districts, where population movements are very substantial indeed? Will he bear in mind that what are so-called parishes are, in fact, quite large townships in certain cases which demand and justify this sort of capital expenditure?

The forward planning of recreational resources in overspill areas is a matter of considerable concern and priority for the regional sports councils.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what steps are being taken to bring to the attention of medium and smaller companies the courses available at technological universities.

Both universities and technical colleges make considerable efforts co do this. Many of them have established Industrial Liaison Centres, which pay particular attention to the needs of medium and smaller firms. Their cost is partly met by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Technology. Some 35 already exist, and this network is being extended.

Is it not a fact that the Arthur Committee on postgraduate engineering courses has underlined the point made by the Committee on Scientific Manpower that there is a gulf between many university departments and industry? Is it not the smaller firms which stand to gain most from these courses because they have not got their internal courses?

Yes. I agree very much with both those propositions. This is an urgent question to which we have not yet found the right answer.

Is there not a further serious problem here, in that many firms do not yet appreciate the value of their middle grade staff going off and doing further postgraduate work, often as mature postgraduate students? I can give the right hon. Gentleman details of a number of cases, if he likes to have them, of obstructions put in the way of just the sort of mature students we require.

I think that there are faults on both sides here. There is still a very considerable task of education to be accomplished. I hope that the publication of both the Willis Jackson and the Arthur Report will make an improvement in this matter, but I should be very happy to see any particular case which the hon. Gentleman cares to bring to my attention.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will take steps to prevent the curtailment of the activities of the Workers' Educational Association.

I do not understand this Question.

I am sorry that the Secretary of State does not understand the Question. Is he aware that one of the branches in my constituency will probably have to suspend a course of lectures, for the first time since 1942, because of shortage of funds?

I am aware that the eastern district in particular has got itself into a very difficult position, fundamentally because it decided to go on expanding at a time when the hon. Gentleman's right hon. Friend was refusing it the money to do so. I sympathise with its motives for going on, but the fact is that it did go on expanding without any assurance about the money. We have now offered £1,000 towards its deficit. As soon as it fills its vacant two full-time posts, we shall consider increasing the grant aid further, but I think that is the limit to what we can do at the moment.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the W.E.A. does a grand job in education? Will he endeavour not only to prevent the curtailment of its activities but also to ensure that the organisation is expanded and encouraged in the future?

The W.E.A. does a grand job, I entirely agree. I want to make it quite clear that there is no question of curtailment. We gave another £30,000 this year for an actual expansion in the work of the responsible bodies, quite apart from any increase in costs and salaries.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction among scientific workers in Scottish universities at the rejection of their salary revaluation proposals; and if he will now reopen negotiations.

The salaries of university technicians are the subject of negotiations between a sub-committee of the Universities' Committee on Technical Staffs and the Unions concerned. Neither the Government nor the University Grants Committee nor the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals are parties to the negotiations. I understand that an offer was made by the sub-committee at a meeting on 16th November, and that negotiations are continuing.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind, in any influence he may have on the negotiations, that these workers are paid considerably less than workers doing closely comparable work in the National Health Service, and will he accept his responsibility in making sure that, being a small body, they are not victimised just because they have not the strength which a larger union might have in resisting the difficulties of the incomes policy?

I am not a party to these negotiations and I would, therefore, prefer to make no further statement as long as they are proceeding.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will initiate legislation for the establishment of a tribunal to hear appeals from university students against decisions of their college to send them down for offences which they have committed.

No, Sir. It is for universities to make their own arrangements for student discipline, and I do not consider this an appropriate subject for legislation. I am sure that universities take great care in cases of this kind, and in many instances there are specific procedures laid down for the exercise of a right of hearing.

Most universities do not have this. Without making any comment on the justice or otherwise of sending the men down from Sidney Sussex College recently, I ask my right hon. Friend to accept that, in cases of this kind, a right of appeal is desirable for students as the consequences may affect the whole of their future lives.

No, Sir; the internal government of the universities is not a matter on which it would be proper for the Government to intervene. I am sure that it is right to leave questions of this kind to the universities to decide, but I can say, as I implied in my original Answer, that when charters for new universities or new charters come to us for approval, we try to make sure that they include some provision for a formal hearing by the senate or by a sub-committee of the senate before a final decision is taken to suspend or expel any student.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations have been made to him on student grants or loans in connection with teacher training; and what replies he has sent.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to my hon. Friends the Members for Durham, North-West (Mr. Armstrong) and for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) on 9th December. Any representations in connection with teacher training will be considered along with other representations relating to student support.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the letter on this subject sent out by his Department and the speech of his hon. Friend the Minister of State have caused a certain amount of alarm and misunderstanding particularly among students?

If there was alarm and misunderstanding, I cannot believe that this was the fault of either the letter or my hon. Friend's excellent speech at the conference of the National Union of Students. The letter made perfectly clear that what we were considering was a continuous exchange of views and information with all interested bodies about the entire question of student support.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what information he has regarding schools' experience of climbing frames; how many accidents have occurred in the last three years; how many have been fatal; and how many schools use sandpits or mattresses underneath as a protection for children who fall from these frames.

None, Sir. Local education authorities equip their schools as they think best, and are not required to inform my right hon. Friend about accidents which occur in the school.

This is a matter of general concern. Is not my hon. Friend aware that, in the London area alone, there has been a large number of accidents, and I myself know of a case in which a child fractured her elbow quite seriously? Ought he not to look into the whole question?

On the general question, I can tell my hon. Friend that my right hon. Friend is carrying out a sample survey of all accidents in schools during 1965 necessitating half a day's absence from school or more. This will include information about the circumstances of each accident, its nature, and the type and severity of the injuries suffered.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what measures the Government have taken since October, 1964, to advance further the development of international co-operation in scientific research; and what new international projects Great Britain has joined as a result of the Government's efforts.

The Government have agreed to participate in the Intersecting Storage Rings Project at the C.E.R.N. laboratory in Geneva, aimed at increasing the effective power of the existing equipment; they have offered to C.E.R.N. for evaluation, though without commitment, a site in Norfolk for the construction of a 300 GeV, accelerator; they have joined the International Agency for Research on Cancer; and they are now preparing to participate in the initial phase of the International Biological Programme.

The right hon. Gentleman's announcement with regard to facilities offered in this country to C.E.R.N. will be greatly welcomed in all quarters of the House. What are the Government's views on the proposal by Lord Florey, retiring president of the Royal Society, that we should encourage further international co-operation on a division of labour basis at, in his phrase, centres of excellence? Will the Government consider this in their future policy?

I thought that Lord Florey's speech was full of good sense on this matter and I strongly endorse the general line of argument. One must add the proviso, however, that these ventures in international co-operation must be generally economical in terms of resources.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how much public money the Government intend to spend in support of research into all the sciences for which he is responsible on his Vote, for each year up to and including 1970; and how it will be allocated between the principal sciences and between the principal institutions.

In the current year, provision has been made for an expenditure of £53·6 million for research councils and other science Votes. No decision has been taken on expenditure for future years.

Arising out of that rather disappointing Answer, can the right hon. Gentleman explain why this feature of research has not appeared in his right hon. Friend's National Plan, as it strikes many of us that forward Government planning in their contributions to research and development should be one of the items in the forefront of any National Plan?

We must have forward economic planning of science expenditure. Apart from anything else, if we do not have it, science expenditure will rapidly get out of control. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Council for Scientific Policy was set up comparatively recently with the precise task of advising the Government on what future expenditure should be and how it might be divided, but it would be wrong to press the Council to give its long-term view on the question before it was ready to do so.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he is aware of the difficult conditions which exist for the teachers and students of the Swinton Comprehensive School due to the students having to use school buildings which are over two miles apart; what action he will take; and if he will make a statement.

Yes Sir, but I cannot add to the Answer given to my hon. Friend on 4th November.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the present building used by the Swinton day teachers training college was built for the comprehensive school, and does not he agree that the local education authority was generous in offering this building for the teachers training college? What explanation has he for the failure to build the new day teachers training college so that the school may have back for its use the building which it was originally intended to have?

I appreciate the purpose of the authority in this proposal and, naturally, we regret the inconvenience to the pupils and staff occasioned by the present suspension and general postponement of public expenditure. This, of course, is not a matter wholly within the hands of my Department, but, so long as it lasts, I am afraid that the pupils and staff must be asked to sustain the difficulty.

Does not the hon. Gentleman's very reasonable question emphasise the danger of a rapid and nationwide drive for a reorganisation of education on comprehensive lines? This is an example of precisely the difficulties to which we have so often drawn attention.

The right hon. Gentleman must not exaggerate this single case into a case against the general policy.

I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will recommend that the headquarters of the Natural Environment Research Council be situated in Scotland.

The headquarters was set up in London earlier this year, but the position in the longer term is subject to review.

Will not the right hon. Gentleman agree that Scotland offers particular facilities for the headquarters of this organisation notably in relation to questions such as land use and research in natural resources, and will he not further accept that the siting of headquarters of such organisations is a logical part of any regional development policy?

The hon. Gentleman must not exaggerate the difference that siting would make to questions of regional development. In this particular case, 95 per cent. of the staff is employed not in the headquarters but in various outside institutions and research bodies. We are not discussing a very large number of people. The main fact is that we have now established this new Council in London, and I do not want to disturb it at this very early stage of its work.

Will my right hon. Friend do his best to see, at least, that forestry research. unlike the headquarters of the Forestry Commission, is situated in Scotland?

That is a separate question.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what sum of money will be available for new school building in the county of Surrey in the years 1965 and 1966; and what was the sum spent for such building in 1964.

£2·2 million of school building was started in the old Surrey county area in 1963–64, and £3·1 million in 1964–65. £2·7 million has been authorised for the new Surrey area in 1965–66.

As we now have a smaller Surrey, does not that figure show a large reduction, particularly in the light of the growing number of schoolchildren there? Will the hon. Gentleman look at the figure again and see that it is increased?

I do not agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman's conclusion, although I am aware of the growth of population in the county. A comparison with past years is misleading since there were the major boundary changes in April, to which he referred, which reduced the county's total school population by about one-third.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will take steps to authorise the rebuilding in the near future of Caterham Valley Secondary School on a fresh site, so that a new primary school can be built on the site, and the rebuilding of St. John's School, in view of the large and growing shortage of primary school places in the Caterham Valley area.

The growing needs of the Caterham Valley area will be taken into account when the next major building programmes are decided.

Since my supplementary question would be longer than you allow, Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he will see me if I come to talk to him about this very difficult matter in the near future?

I shall be most happy to see the hon. and learned Gentleman at any time.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what priority is now being given to new construction work for primary schools and, in particular, for the Hampton Primary School.

My right hon. Friend is not yet able to make any statement about the priorities for the next round of major school building programmes, and he can give no undertakings about any particular proposals which may be put to him.

Ought not Hampton Primary School to get a fair crack of the whip? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some schools are, like the Hampton Primary School, terribly old and out of date? Should not some priority be given to this and similar cases?

I am aware of the deficiencies of the school, but the hon. Gentleman will be aware that no proposal for it was included in any of the current school building programmes drawn up by the previous Government.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proportion of expenditure on school building, proposed for 1969–70 in Her Majesty's Government's National Plan, will be allocated for school improvements, other than those required for the raising of the school-leaving age.

It is not yet possible to say how much of this vast programme will result in improvements to existing schools.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when be will announce the total amount of authorised starts of major school-building projects for 1967–68.

As soon as possible.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this delay is very disappointing and is causing concern? Does he recall that when, at the A.E.C. conference in 1963, I announced my intention to state building programmes two years in advance, that decision was widely welcomed? Will he undertake that what was regarded as an important change of policy will not now be revoked by the Government?

I have a great deal of sympathy with the right hon. Gentleman on this and I am aware that local education authorities are anxious to have their 1967–68 building programmes settled. I shall, in fact, be making an announcement at the earliest possible moment. However, there is no evidence that the momentum of the programme is being held up for want of an announcement about that year.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will take steps to ensure that in future the provision of school buses or other forms of school transport shall not be decided solely by reference to the distance between home and school of a particular pupil, in order to ensure the provision of school transport for short distances where dangerous road conditions obtain.

Local education authorities are already free to provide transport for pupils who live within statutory walking distance when they consider that local circumstances justify it.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that, to a large extent, local education authorities regard themselves as bound, or at least guided, by the Ministry circular which advised certain mileages for this purpose? Does not he agree that, whereas distance may be a good rough and ready guide in most cases, there are cases where it is a very poor guide?

There is no excuse for any local authority being in doubt about the Department's advice. Last February local authorities were reminded of the need to review transport arrangements from time to time and, in particular, to ensure that account is taken of extra dangers arising from the increasing volume of traffic.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how much it costs to train a teacher at a college of education per year, and for the whole course, respectively.

The average cost of training a teacher at a college of education is now about £780 a year, making a total of about £2,340 for the normal three year course.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science why, out of the 27,000 teachers completing courses at colleges of education in the two years 1959–60 and 1960–61, 7,400 have now left the service.

About 70 per cent. because they got married, and the remainder mostly to move into posts in higher and further education or to serve for a short period overseas.

As the figure of those leaving the service is so high, what is the right hon. Gentleman doing to stop the wastage? What is he doing to concentrate on quality rather than quantity?

It is hardly my job to prevent students in the colleges going off and getting married and having families. I have not the slightest intention of trying to restrict the entry of girl students merely because they may go off and get married. As the hon. Gentleman mentioned quality, if he looks at the recent Answer I gave about the proportion of students, male and female, with either one or two G.C.E. A level passes he will see that there is a steady increase in the quality of the students.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he will report his proposals for an improvement in the school meals service.

The Departmental Working Party which was set up in February to review the nutritional recommendations made in the Department's Circular 290 of 1955 has now reported to my right hon. Friend and the report will be published shortly. He has accepted its recommendations which will be brought into effect in the summer term of next year.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware that the permitted cost at present of the meal content is less than 10d. per meal? Is he further aware that many experts describe the meat part of that content as appallingly bad? Since the quality of the meal is so much less than what the children are used to at home, will my hon. Friend implement the recommendation of the Working Party at the earliest convenience?

I have already indicated that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has accepted the recommendation of the Working Party which takes account of the feature to which my hon. Friend has referred.