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Commons Chamber

Volume 727: debated on Monday 25 April 1966

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House Of Commons

Monday, 25th April, 1966

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

Prayers

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

Members Sworn

The following Members took and subscribed the Oath, or made and subscribed the Affirmation required by Law:

Right honourable Sir Alexander Frederick Douglas-Home, K.T., Kinross and West Perthshire.

Renée Short, Wolverhampton, North-East.

Francis Edward Noel-Baker, esquire, Swindon.

William Donald Chapman, esquire, Birmingham, Northfield.

Merlyn Rees, esquire, Leeds, South.

Albert Roberts, esquire, Normanton.

Sir Barnett Janner, Leicester, North-West.

Sir Frederic Mackarness Bennett, Torquay.

Eldon Wylie Griffiths, esquire, Bury St. Edmunds.

George Burnaby Drayson, esquire, T.D., Skipton.

Gordon Thomas Calthrop Campbell, esquire, M.C., Moray and Nairn.

Gilbert James Morley Longden, esquire, M.B.E., South-West Hertfordshire.

Anthony George Berry, esquire, commonly called the honourable Anthony George Berry, Southgate.

Sir Fitzroy Hew Royle Maclean, baronet, C.B.E., Bute and North Ayrshire.

Humphrey Edward Atkins, esquire, Merton and Morden.

Arthur James Irvine, esquire, Q.C., Liverpool, Edge Hill.

Frederick Petre Crowder, esquire, Q.C., Ruislip-Northwood.

Right honourable Robert Michael Maitland Stewart, Fulham.

Right honourable Arthur William James Anthony Greenwood, Rossendale.

William Thomas Williams, esquire, Q.C., Warrington.

Oral Answers To Questions

Public Building And Works

Brick Stocks

1.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what stocks of bricks were available in Scotland at the most recent date for which figures are available; and what was the comparable figure in the same month of the previous year.

12.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what estimate he has formed of the number of bricks in stock.

15.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what was the number of bricks produced in February, 1966; and how this compares with the equivalent figures for January, 1966, December, 1965, and November, 1965.

There were 882 million bricks, about five or six weeks' usage, in stock at the end of March, including 58 million, three or four weeks' supply, in Scotland. Production figures for November and December, 1965, and January, February and March, 1966, were 652, 592, 569, 552 and 650 million, respectively.

Does the hon. Gentleman recall any year since the war when stocks of bricks have been so high at this time of the year, and would he not regard it as a condemnation of the Government's policies that housebuilding in Scotland last year went down by 2,000 and fell again in January and February, this at a time when brick stocks are so large?

Yes, Sir. Stocks were higher than this in 1963. They tend to fluctuate. There have been instances of gluts and shortages over many years. As for the situation in Scotland, I am sure the hon. Gentleman will welcome the fact that the seasonal increase in demand started more quickly there than in England and Wales. Stocks in Scotland, at 58 million bricks, are only 6 million higher than a year ago.

Can we hope from this Minister that, unlike his predecessor, he will not over-stimulate the production of bricks at a time when the Chancellor of the Exchequer is restraining funds for house purchase and when the Minister of Housing and Local Government is cutting back on homes for owner-occupation?

My predecessor inherited a great shortage of bricks and, I say in retrospect, the action he took was absolutely correct. As for the subsequent measures of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, those were dictated by the economic crisis inherited from the previous Government.

British Museum (Catering Facilities)

2.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what steps he is taking to improve the catering facilities at the British Museum.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Public Building and Works
(Mr. James Boyden)

Before 1961, there were no public catering facilities. Since then a temporary snack bar has been provided. A scheme is being considered for a new and larger restaurant.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Museum authorities deplore the poor catering facilities as much as I do? Does he not think that, with several hundred people working in the reading room at the British Museum, it is a matter of urgency that he should provide a proper meals service for these people?

The provision of food is a matter for the Museum authorities. A scheme is under consideration, for which it is hoped that planning and contract preliminaries will be completed in time for building work to start at the end of 1967.

New Houses (Dampness)

3.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what research he is conducting into remedies for dampness in recently completed houses.

The Ministry is investigating cases of dampness which have occurred in certain of its new buildings. Sytematic research is done by the Build- ing Research Station of the Ministry of Technology, with which the Ministry collaborates, and the results are published regularly.

In the light of recent experience in Scotland and the West Midlands, is this sufficient?

With regard to dampness, technical knowledge is usually sufficient to cover all considerations. The main difficulties are lack of information among the builders and workmen and often the misuse of the building by the people who occupy it.

How soon can a report be published, because this is a very serious business and many people think that there is a fault in design which should be corrected before more houses are built?

I cannot answer for a specific case, because I have not had a specific case put to me. Reports on this matter are published all the time, some on specific cases for which the Ministry of Public Building and Works is responsible.

Industrialised Building Components (Standardisation)

4.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what steps he is taking to encourage the production of standard building components for industrialised methods of building.

The Ministry is using its own programme to encourage the production of standard building components and is continually advising client authorities, the industry and its associated professions. The Ministry is promoting dimensional co-ordination; for example, by pressing for the adoption of standard floor to floor heights in housing.

Can my hon. Friend say what proportion of building will be done this year by using these components, what the value of production in terms of money will be, and if he will encourage builders to use these standardised components even when building traditional houses?

The answer to the last part of that question is "Yes, Sir". However, I would need notice of the details and implications of the first two parts before answering them.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Great London Council, formerly the London County Council, is far from helpful in this regard, and that the London Building Regulations make it almost impossible for standard building components to be manufactured which are not out of keeping with the requirements of building in London?

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether any decision has been made about my suggestion that house building by industrial methods should be distinguished separately in the quarterly housing summaries?

Building And Construction Industries (Research End Development)

5.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what steps he is taking to encourage speedier industrial development work in order to reduce the time lag between the completion of research and its application on a large scale in the building and construction industries.

The Building Research Station, the National Building Agency and development groups in this and other Ministries are all promoting research in this field and are publicising the results. The recently established Agrément Board has a similar function for materials and components. The Ministry is working on development projects worth £22 million.

Is my hon. Friend aware that it takes 15 to 20 years before the results of building research are applied in the building industry, and is this not far too long? Will he consider awarding development projects for industrial developments to nationalised industries and private enterprise to speed this up?

In answer to the first part of that question, one of the great difficulties in the building industry is getting information about such matters as dampness into the hands of the people who do the work. My right hon. Friend is hoping that a new information and research body will shortly get under way and will make a big impact in this sphere.

Portland Stone Industry

6.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works to what extent, in imposing building controls, he took into consideration the matter of unemployment in the Portland stone industry; and if he will make a statement.

The decision to seek building control legislation was taken in the light of the general state of the construction industry, of which the Portland stone industry is a part.

If we may deduce, as I think we may, from that reply that the Ministry forgot all about the Portland stone industry, will the hon. Gentleman accept it from me that his Ministry is responsible for the grave redundancy position as a result of those controls, and will he seek to influence other contracts in the direction of Portland?

The answer to the first part of that question is "No, Sir". Indeed, I am seeing representatives of the Portland stone industry on 10th May. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not want the Ministry to influence the building industry in favour of one particular commodity.

Arising out of that reply, does the hon. Gentleman recall that the former Minister, upon taking office, said that he had inherited a generally satisfactory state of affairs in the building and construction industry?

On the specific point of the decline of the Portland stone industry, this has come about over a long period and has, I think, been due very much to a declining demand and a change of attitude towards this commodity.

Palace Of Westminster (Lectures)

7.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what proposals he has for providing lectures on the Palace of Westminster directed especially to Members and staff of both Houses.

Arrangements for lectures to Members and staff of both Houses, similar to those given last year to Palace of Westminster guides, will be made as soon as possible.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that very satisfactory reply. Will he consider enlisting the expertise, affection and skill as a raconteur of his predecessor to contribute to this scheme?

That is a very interesting suggestion and one to which I should give very careful thought.

Would not my right hon. Friend consider having conducted tours round the building to show new Members the various holes and corners that have nothing to do with them?

Westminster Hall (Roof Repairs)

8.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will provide details of the repairs now being undertaken to the roof of Westminster Hall, giving the date of the erection of the scaffolding, the estimated date of completion, and the average number of workpeople employed each day on the project.

The work is treatment against death watch beetle in two of the roof trusses, involving the removal and replacement of decayed timbers. The scaffolding was erected in November, 1965, and the present work is likely to be completed towards the end of 1967. An average of three men have been employed daily.

Is the Minister aware that it is very difficult to detect any progress or any sense of urgency? Is he further aware that, as a result of the 700th anniversary of Simon de Mont-fort's Parliament, this building is visited by an increasing number of British and overseas visitors? Would it not be wise to take down the scaffolding during the tourist season and perhaps put it up again in the winter—it is quite easy—in order to show the beauty of the hall and the magnificent roof to the many people who wish to see it?

I will consider the suggestion in the latter half of that supple- mentary question. I can see some difficulties, but I will look at it. On the progress of the work, one has to consider two things: first, the great importance of restoring the features of the building absolutely correctly, and secondly, the great shortage of skilled workers who can do this work. This means that the pace is slower than many of us would like, but I do not think that any of us would like the job to be rushed in a way that would lead to a less than excellent result.

National Federation Of Building Trades Employers (Representations)

10.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what representations he has received from the National Federation of Building Trades Employers regarding the current state of trade in the building industry; and what reply he has sent.

Has the Minister read the statement of the National Federation that medium and small firms are suffering intensely in this time of restriction? Why is it the policy of Her Majesty's Government to drive small and medium firms to the wall?

I think that the last part of the hon. Member's supplementary question was a gross exaggeration. In any case, we are expecting demand to increase rapidly in the next few months. I have, of course, read the recent report of the National Federation of Building Trades Employers and will be seeing representatives of that organisation and others in the industry to discuss the matter in the very near future.

But does not that same statement seem to suggest that the rather modest targets in the National Plan for building and housing will not be attained? Will the Minister take an early opportunity to make a statement to the House?

I think that to refer to the National Plan is looking at a rather longer term prospect. Of course, it is a challenge to the industry and everyone concerned, including my Ministry, to increase efficiency and productivity to meet those targets. These are the kind of matters on which I hope to have talks with representatives in the industry very soon.

Departmental Functions (Transfer)

11.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what administrative machinery he will set up as the result of the transfer of some of the functions of his Department to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government.

As this will depend on what changes are to be made in the respective responsibilities of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government and myself, and as these have not yet been announced, the hon. Gentleman's Question is hypothetical.

When will that question cease to be hypothetical? When can we expect the answer?

Members (Car Parking Facilities)

13.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what steps he is taking to make more space available for the parking of the cars of hon. Members in the precincts of the Palace of Westminster; and why an obstruction has been placed so as to prevent cars being parked immediately inside the southern carriage gate to New Palace Yard.

I am afraid that there is no scope for providing additional car parking space within the precincts of the Palace of Westminster. I assume the hon. Member is referring, in the latter part of his Question, to the old mounting block. It was recently moved to its present place as being less obstructive than its previous position in the Yard.

Might I suggest that a very good start in providing more space would be to see that the inner courtyards are not continually blocked by Ministers' cars with chauffeurs waiting an inordinately long time for their Ministers?

I have no evidence that Ministers' cars wait for longer periods than do other Members' cars.

Would the Minister ask his officials to see whether there are not a great many cars parked in New Palace Yard that do not belong to hon. Members? If there are, would he consider whether they should not be turned out?

I will look into any complaint there may be made on that aspect. Perhaps the hon. Member would like to write to me with any detailed suggestions he may have on this point.

Proceedings Of The House (Television)

14.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what steps are being taken to arrange for the televising of the proceedings of the House of Commons.

Will the Minister make sure that if he does make any further arrangements he makes them after having had proper consultation with the House itself; otherwise this very important and desirable development will be unduly prejudiced?

The decisions on policy of this kind are for the House, and Questions on the Government's attitude towards these matters are for my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council, who has Questions on these points on the Order Paper. My officials would be responsible for some technical arrangements here, and if the occasion arose in the future would look into them very carefully along with the broadcasting companies and take account of the views of hon. Members.

Order. This is difficult. There are Questions on policy to the Lord President of the Council. Questions now must be questions purely about the Minister's own responsibility.

In so far as this matter concerns my right hon.Friend, can we have a definite assurance—and I mean a definite assurance—that nothing will be done until this House has been fully consulted?

On the only part of the policy which effects my Department—the more technical one of the kind of arrangements to be made—I certainly would like to have the views of hon.Members, and in the light of these my officials would consult the broadcasting people.

Will the Minister bear in mind that if the speeches made this weekend by the hon. Members for Poplar (Mr. Mikardo) and Bosworth (Mr. Wyatt) are to be taken into account, it looks as though they want to get on television and the only way they can do so is for the House to be televised. Would the right hon. Gentleman, therefore, bear that in mind?

Will the Minister give an assurance that his Department was in no way responsible for the authorisation of colour filming and Press photography——

Pensions And National Insurance

Food Education Society (Report)

16.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what consideration she has given to the Report by the Food Education Society, a copy of which has been sent to her, drawing attention to malnutrition among the, elderly; what steps she will take; and if she will make a statement.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance
(Mr. Norman Pentland)

A copy of the report to which the hon. Lady refers came to hand only this morning, but my right hon. Friend will, of course, ensure that it is studied by those concerned.

Will the hon. Gentleman ensure that there is no great delay, as these elderly people, like other people, get older every day? Will he make a statement to the House immediately a decision is taken?

As the hon. Lady knows, this report is wide-ranging and calls for the attention of my right hon. Friends the Minister of Health and the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. That is why I have said that it will be studied by all those concerned.

Ministry Of Health

Chemists (Payment)

17.

asked the Minister of Health if the replacement of the special interim payment to dispensing chemists by a payment on account will result in a saving in the cost of the National Health Service.

Will the Minister look at the prospect of entirely recasting the system of dispensing medicine under the National Health Service, especially in view of the shortage of pharmacists and the complications involved?

I should first like to see the effect of the change I am introducing, the net effect of which is to speed up the rhythm of payments to chemists. This is, of course, a system to their advantage.

Dunlop Committee (Powers)

18.

asked the Minister of Health when he proposes to strengthen the powers of the Dunlop Committee; and how he will do this.

Legislation is necessary to introduce statutory requirements on drug safety, and will be introduced when Parliamentary time permits. Meantime a voluntary scheme is in operation, with which the professions and the industry are co-operating fully.

Will such legislation reflect the points of view put forward by my right hon. Friend during the debate on the minority Report presented to this House?

The views to which my hon. Friend refers will certainly be taken into account in preparing legislation.

As a poisonous drug is being put into our drinking water supplies, may we be told what steps will be taken by the Minister to safeguard the health of the community?

I do not accept, once again, the premises in my hon. Friend's question.

Ministry Of Labour

Redundancy Payments Act (Shipbuilding And Repair Industries)

19.

asked the Minister of Labour what progress he has made in his discussions with both sides of industry on the application of the Redundancy Payments Act to the shipbuilding and repair industries.

20.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will make a statement on the application of the Redundancy Payments Act as it applies to employees in the ship-repairing industry.

It was recognised when the Redundancy Payments Act was passed that because of special circumstances in particular industries it might be difficult for employees to acquire the minimum service with one employer to qualify for a redundancy payment. My right hon. Friend therefore discussed the application of the Act to shipbuilding and ship-repairing with both sides of the industry on 8th March. They have since embarked on joint discussions and will report to my right hon. Friend in due course.

First, may I ask my hon. Friend to accept our congratulations on her appointment. Secondly, will she note that these discussions have a very close bearing on the whole programme for the possible reorganisation and modernisation of the shipbuilding industry and press on as rapidly as possible with these discussions?

My right hon. Friend is aware of the importance of this matter as part of the modernisation of the shipbuilding industry.

Can the hon. Lady explain, in view of the importance of this matter, why the discussions did not take place before the Act was passed? Can she give any indication of how much longer the men concerned, as well as the employers, will have to wait before they know what their rights are under the Act?

Under the Redundancy Payments Act, Section 11, provision was made for industries with particular problems such as the shipbuilding industry. In answer to the second part of the supplementary question, the introduction of the guaranteed week has meant that there are additional complications which the Ministry and both sides of the industry have had to consider in drawing up a local scheme.

Does the Minister realise that this problem is of the utmost importance to British shipbuilders, having regard to the way in which Japanese and other foreign nations compete with our shipbuilders? Will she give special attention to this problem from that point of view in order to preserve the British shipbuilding industry?

Is the hon. Lady considering this working in the dockyards as a whole, including Her Majesty's dockyards?

The discussions at the moment apply strictly to the shipbuilding industry, but I will bear in mind the point made by the hon. Lady.

Yemen

21.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what initiative has been taken at the United Nations, since the failure of the Haradh Conference, to end the conflict in Yemen, which constitutes a threat to world peace, and to set up a generally acceptable provisional government, in conformity with the Jedda Agreement, and to secure compliance by the United Arab Republic with its international engagements.

None, Sir. Our policy towards the Yemen conflict remains one of non-involvement.

Are there not perhaps 80,000 Egyptian troops in Yemen mainly concentrated in areas adjacent to Aden? Do the Government expect them to be gone by 1968? If not, is it their policy to hand Aden to Egypt?

The information we have according to published reports is that there are probably about 60,000 Egyptian troops in the Yemen at the moment. We are not responsible for Egyptian policy. Our desire is, while remaining non-involved, to see a peaceful settlement of the war in the Yemen.

Is the Minister suggesting that there is no connection between the disturbances in Aden which are continuous and the war which has been going on in Yemen during the last few years? Do not both these conflicts germinate from the same source, namely, Egyptian interference in other Arabian countries which have independent sovereignty?

No. I was making no such suggestion, but questions about disturbances in Aden are questions for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies. As to the Yemen, we stick to our policy of non-involvement and wishing to see a peaceful settlement there.

Is our undertaking to leave the Aden quite unconnected with the Egyptian undertaking to withdraw their troops from the Yemen? Do we simply withdraw, leaving the Egyptian troops to occupy Aden?

Any question about the policy under the Defence Review should be addressed to my right hon. Friends. As concerns the Yemen, the issue there is to try to bring about a peaceful settlement of the prolonged civil war in that part of the country. I understand that talks between the U.A.R. and Saudi-Arabia are still going on, but so tar they have failed to reach agreement on how the Jedda Agreement should be carried out.

Portugal

22.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps he is taking to improve relations with Portugal.

Her Majesty's Government wish to maintain good rela- tions with the Portuguese Government. We are continuing to co-operate with them in the normal way.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Government's relations with Portugal have gravely deteriorated owing to the Rhodesian sanctions and the timing of the Government's resort to the Security Council? Is not this highly dangerous not only for British trade but to the Western Alliance? What do the Government propose to do to improve the alliance with Portugal?

Her Majesty's Government are doing everything possible to prevent any deterioration in Anglo-Portuguese relations. The hon. Member will know that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs himself visited Lisbon from 6th to 8th April and had three meetings with the Portuguese Foreign Secretary. My right hon. Friend has also seen the Portuguese Ambassador in London on a number of occasions, and we have made every contact to secure a proper understanding of our policies as they affect both Rhodesia and Portugal.

Will my right hon. Friend impress on the Portuguese authorities the substantial advantages to Mozambique of an early ending of the illegal régime of Southern Rhodesia?

Yes, Sir. We believe that it is in the interests of all concerned in Southern Africa to see a restoration of constitutional law in Rhodesia.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when his hon. Friend visited the Portuguese Government to try to impress on them the necessity for a sanctions policy without recourse to the United Nations, while he was in communication with them the Government were raising this issue at the United Nations? Is that the way in which to improve relations?

I do not accept the hon. Member's description of events. If the Portuguese Government had agreed as a result of our representations to prevent the "Ioanna" docking in Beira, there would have been no need for any approach to the United Nations Security Council. As it was, the approach had to be made in emergency conditions as a matter of urgency and ought to have been made under these conditions. Her Majesty's Embassy in Lisbon was informed by telephone at the earliest possible moment.

Indonesia

24.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will invite the Foreign Secretary of the Republic of Indonesia to Great Britain to discuss the future relationship between Great Britain and Indonesia, in order to try to get a settlement in regard to the confrontation between Malaysia and Indonesia in which Her Majesty's forces are at present engaged.

We certainly wish to improve our relations with Indonesia, and we are in touch with the Indonesian Government to that end, as well as with the Governments of Malaysia and Singapore, for whom confrontation is a matter of the closest concern. I shall certainly bear the hon. Lady's suggestion in mind.

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his reply, because it seems very necessary for Great Britain to take steps at present, Indonesia not being a member of the United Nations, and in view of the worsening of relations between Malaysia and the State of Singapore, it is very urgent that some action should be taken by Her Majesty's Government.

The hon. Lady will realise that we must act here with a proper consideration for the rights and interests of the Governments of Malaysia and Singapore.

While thanking my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary for his reply, may I ask him to bear in mind that the hon. Lady's proposal would have very wide support?

South Vietnam (Police Mission)

25.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what was the cost of the British advisory police mission in Saigon in the first three months of this year; what service it gave to the South Vietnamese Government; and what part it played in assisting to suppress the demonstrations in Saigon.

On the basis of figures so far available, the British advisory mission in Vietnam has cost approximately £7,140 in the first three months of this year. With regard to the services which the Mission give to the South Vietnamese Government, as I explained to my hon. Friend on the 31st of January, the mission is concerned with the advice and training of the Vietnamese civil police. No members of the mission were involved in the work of controlling the recent demonstrations in Saigon.

In view of the large number of daring acts of robbery and banditry in London, does not my right hon. Friend think it more desirable that these police should come home? Can he give an assurance that these police who are paid by the British taxpayer will not on any account be used against a popular disturbance and in defence of a Fascist Government?

Without accepting the implications of all that, I have already explained what the functions of these police are. I think my hon. Friend will agree that, not only in this field but in many others, we have worldwide responsibilities and our resources have to be devoted both to the needs of this country and to fulfilling some of our world responsibilities.

Will my right hon. Friend state what approaches the American Administration have made recently for British troops proper to serve in Vietnam?

That is another question. It has been made clear on many occasions that that is not the intention of Her Majesty's Government.

As the American intervention started as an advisory mission, will my right hon. Friend assure the House that the British intervention will not expand in the same way as the American one did?

There is no comparison at all between these two cases. It is true that, when there were only American advisors in South Vietnam, the North did advise the starting of an all-out military campaign against the South Vietnamese Government. As I have said on many occasions, I believe that was an extremely regrettable decision.

North Atlantic Treaty Organisation

26.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what consultations he has had with the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation in view of the French request that allied forces withdraw from France; and if he will make a statement.

Regular consultations between the other fourteen members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation are taking place on the implications of the French proposals.

In view of the very serious disarray within the alliance as a result of the French demands, what new initiatives are the British Government proposing to take? Specifically, will the Foreign Secretary say that it is in the interests of this country that, if N.A.T.O.'s Headquarters must leave Paris, it will be very welcome in London?

The hon. Member may remember that the British Government played a very prominent part in the framing of the declaration of the fourteen other members of N.A.T.O. other than France, and since then the fourteen have been busy on the study of all the particular problems that arise. If it seems wise for us to take a further step in order to promote and expedite those discussions at any moment, we shall certainly do so. I think I had better leave for the present answers to particular questions such as the one raised in the last part of the hon. Member's Question.

I do not know if the Foreign Secretary will be able to deal with this to some extent tomorrow. I notice that he said that discussions were taking place with the other fourteen members of the N.A.T.O. Alliance. France is still a member of the alliance, as I understand it, and intends to continue to be so. May we take it that the Government are in touch with the French Government as to what solution there should be?

Certainly. I think that a further and a more detailed Answer to that may be better given tomorrow.

Apart from the other unfortunate idiosyncrasies of French policy, are not the French in gross breach of the Treaty of Washington in taking the actions they are taking in 1966; and, if so, has this been brought to their attention?

I think it is quite clear that we do not share at all the views or approve the line that the French Government are taking at the present time, but in view of the considerations just advanced by the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home), I do not think I should say more than that at this stage.

Have the French Government made it clear whether or not they still stand by the Brussels Treaty under which they are under an obligation to come to the aid of their allies in the event of war?

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that, while it is necessary to deal with the problems which have arisen in these circumstances, it might be better to leave the principal initiative to countries which are perhaps rather less financially dependent on the United States than Her Majesty's Government appear to be?

I do not share the view of some hon. Members opposite that this country is not in a position to play a very considerable part in world affairs.

Whatever the merits of the French demands and proposals, is not there now a clear case for reviewing and reconstituting the Atlantic Alliance with the object of bringing about a greater equality between the two sides of the Atlantic?

I think it is true that the problem we are now faced with does give an opportunity for reconsidering a great many matters about the organisation of N.A.T.O., and we shall certainly take this opportunity.

Spain (Gibraltar)

27.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs who will be conducting the conference with the Spanish representatives on Gibraltar; whether an agenda has been fixed; and whether representatives of the people of Gibraltar will participate in the conference.

Talks will begin between the Spanish Minister for Foreign Affairs and myself on 18th May. An agenda has not been fixed. The parties to the talks are Her Majesty's Government and the Spanish Government.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that only the first part of his Answer can be regarded as satisfactory? Would he give a guarantee to the House that no decision will be arrived at without the full agreement of the Gibraltar people and of Parliament?

I should make it quite clear that, although owing to the status of Gibraltar the discussions have to take place between the Spanish Government and ourselves, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies will be having talks with the Chief Minister of Gibraltar and his Deputy before the discussion with the Spanish Government begins, and we shall be very well aware of their views and pay very considerable respect to them.

Would the Foreign Secretary now confirm once and for all that, whatever the formal agenda may be, no question whatsoever will arise at these talks affecting the future sovereignty of Gibraltar—yes or no?

I cannot predict what will be discussed at the talks, but I want to repeat what I have said before, that we have no doubt as to our rights of sovereignty over Gibraltar.

As the circumstances of these talks are very similar indeed to those which the right hon. Gentleman conducted with Venezuela about her claims to part of British Guiana, at which I understand the Premier of British Guiana, a Colony at that time, was present, why cannot the Gibraltar Ministers be present at these Anglo-Spanish talks?

The hon. Gentleman will agree that the situation was somewhat different. The independence of British Guiana was merely a few months ahead at the time those talks were in progress, and there is no similar position with regard to Gibraltar. The hon. Gentleman may have noticed that he has quoted what we may hope will be a fortunate parallel, since those discussions ended to the entire satisfaction of all the parties concerned, including British Guiana.

Whereas neither side of the House has any doubt about our sovereignty over Gibraltar, will the Foreign Secretary make it perfectly clear that he does not intend at any future date to try to change that sovereignty?

I think I have made this point clear in several Answers, both today and earlier.

In any discussions which take place, will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that he will completely ignore the Spanish red book which was issued to all hon. Members in the last Parliament?

I do not know about ignoring it in the sense of ignoring its existence. I have already made clear to the House what view we take of the arguments and views there advanced.

Channel Islands (Victims Of Nazi Persecution)

28.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he proposes to take further action to assist civilian victims of Nazi persecution in the Channel Islands.

No, Sir. The recently concluded registration of claims undertaken by the Foreign Office covered Channel Islanders who suffered in Nazi concentration camps or in comparable institutions. Consideration of other claims against Germany arising out of the Second World War are deferred in accordance with existing international agreements until there is a final peace settlement.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that a significant number of British citizens in the Channel Islands were deported to internment camps in Germany and suffered serious privation there, but these people are not entitled to any compensation under the existing regulations? Could not my right hon. Friend take action to extend these regulations to cover these people who are suffering all these years after the war?

Yes, I am aware of the situation affecting the people to whom my hon. Friend refers. Unfortunately, the agreements to which I have referred apply only to those who have been in concentration camps or comparable institutions. The extension of these to other groups of people must await the final peace treaty with Germany.

Housing

Rent Assessment Committees

29.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will issue a statement showing week by week since they started operations the number of determinations of the rent officers, in London and in other areas, stating how many rents have been reduced, increased or kept the same, the numbers of applications for rent changes outstanding, the numbers submitted to the rent assessment committees, the totals of the above weekly figures, and an approximate average of the original rents and of the rents agreed upon and registered.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government
(Mr. James MacColl)

With permission, I will circulate the figures in the OFFICIAL, REPORT. As regards rent levels, there have not yet been sufficient determinations by rent assessment committees to enable meaningful comparisons to be made.

Is my hon. Friend aware that many of us were appalled by the first four decisions of the rent assessment committees sharply increasing the figures fixed by the rent officer, and, in two cases of a very ordinary flat, placing £10 a week including rates on it? It is not clear that they are not excluding the shortage factor which the Act says must be ignored and which accounts for all this housing exploitation?

I have no reason to suppose that the rent assessment committees ignore the provisions of the Act. I think the number of determinations is too few for one to obtain any clear measure of what is happening.

Could the hon. Gentleman think of some way of keeping us informed regularly of the figures asked for by the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) in this Question, perhaps on a monthly basis or even on a quarterly basis?

We certainly hope to be able to supply fairly frequently figures relating to what is happening.

Will my hon. Friend look at some of the extraordinary decisions which have been made by the rent officers in the London Borough of Lambeth where exorbitant rents are being fixed at levels much higher than landlords themselves have asked for in the first instance? Does not this completely defeat the object for which we thought we were putting this Act on the Statute Book?

If, as my hon. Friend says, these are determinations of the rent officers, no doubt he will advise his constituents to see that they appeal to the rent assessment committees.

Does my hon. Friend observe that the Question includes the words "other areas", and will he therefore give the relevant figures for Scotland as well as for England?

I think it would be more than my life was worth to give any figures for Scotland.

Does not this Act of Parliament bring out what a number of us have been saying for some time, that some of the rents in London have been fixed unrealistically low and that it is quite right that they should be brought to a proper level?

I say to the hon. Gentleman as I do to my hon. Friends that I think it is too early to try to give a quick generalisation about this situation. I think we should watch the position to see what is happening. It is comforting to see that decisions are going both ways and that landlords as well as tenants are getting unsatisfactory decisions. That may happen when we are reaching a balance.

Can my hon. Friend say whether, under the Act or under the Regulations made under the Act, there is any obligation on these committees to give reasons for the decisions at which they arrive? If there is no such obligation, would it not be a sensible and practical amendment of the law to provide that they should be obliged to give these

APPLICATIONS FOR REGISTRATION OF FAIR RENTS RENT ACT 1965

Determinations by Rent Officers

Rent Assessment Panel Area

Total Determined

Rent Reduced

Rent Unchanged

Rent Increased

Applications outstanding with Rent Officers

References to Rent Assessment Committee

LONDON (In operation from 3rd January, 1966) 1966
Week ending 8th January22800
Week ending 15th January1,555
Week ending 22nd January31112,317
Week ending 29th January212012,849
Week ending 5th February60368163,2642
Week ending 12th February976215203,5692
Week ending 19th February18014313243,7598
Week ending 26th February19615918194,02525
Week ending 5th March1341079184,36039
Week ending 12th March17513520204,49755
Week ending 19th March17211526314,73150
Week ending 26th March284136104444,69943
Week ending 2nd April21714223524,78746
Week ending 9th April1309913184,91662
Week ending 16th April17010024464,98833
TOTALS1,8411,255276310365
WEST MIDLAND (In operation from 14th February, 1966) 1966
Week ending 19th February76
Week ending 26th February100
Week ending 5th March94141401
Week ending 12th March1385179
Week ending 19th March331887201
Week ending 26th March2723222206
Week ending 2nd April2818282333
Week ending 9th April16124240
Week ending 16th April591144422210
TOTALS18594573420

reasons so that comparisons can be made?

I think that this is controlled by the procedures which are laid down by the president of the panel in each case. So far as I know, there is every intention to supply the fullest information that can be given about what is happening in relation to these decisions.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter at the earliest possible moment.

Following are the figures:

Determinations by Rent Officers

Rent Assessment Panel Area

Total Determined

Rent Reduced

Rent Unchanged

Rent Increased

Applications outstanding with Rent Officers

References to Rent Assessment Committee

YORKSHIRE (In operation from 28th February, 1996) 1996
Week ending 5th March1172
Week ending 12th March11122
Week ending 19th March5311160
Week ending 26th March211515169
Week ending 2nd April1510231773
Week ending 9th April161331681
Week ending 16th April2292111693
TOTALS81516247
NORTHERN (In operation from 28th February, 1966) 1966
Week ending 5th March56
Week ending 12th March2290
Week ending 19th March642167
Week ending 26th March1192181
Week ending 2nd April20173185
Week ending 9th April2113351812
Week ending 16th April10821882
TOTALS70533144
EAST MIDLAND (In operation from 16th March, 1966) 1966
16th March–26th March1147
Week ending 2nd April52376
Week ending 9th April43178
Week ending 16th April14104821
TOTALS241591
BRISTOL (In operation from 16th March, 1966) 1966
16th March–26th March1122
Week ending 2nd April3322
Week ending 9th April21124
Week ending 16th April21128
TOTALS826
SURREY AND SUSSEX (In operation from 28th March, 1966) 1966
Week ending 2nd April63
Week ending 9th April95
Week ending 16th April104
TOTALS

Determinations by Rent Officers

Rent Assessment Panel Area

Total Determined

Rent Reduced

Rent Unchanged

Rent Increased

Applications outstanding with Rent Officers

References to Rent Assessment Committee

MANCHESTER (In operation from 2nd April, 1966) 1966
Week ending 9th April66
Week ending 16th April103
TOTALS
LIVERPOOL (In operation from 2nd April, 1966) 1966
Week ending 9th April53
Week ending 16th April108
TOTALS

Opening Of Parliament (Filming)

30.

asked the Lord President of the Council for what organisation the House of Commons was filmed in colour; by what authority permission was given for this filming; and what fee was paid.

An application was received from Associated British Pathé Ltd. to film the House of Commons in colour on the occasion of the Opening of Parliament by Her Majesty. Permission was given by the House authorities, on the assumption that it was implicit in the House of Commons (Services) Committee's Resolution, which was approved by Mr. Speaker, that the ceremony should be televised by the B.B.C. The fact that a colour film was again being taken in the House of Lords was also borne in mind. No fees were paid.

Does the Lord President agree that some parts of that Answer reveal an extraordinary state of affairs? Could he give an assurance that any decisions about television which are reached with the approval of this House do not apply to the filming in colour of proceedings in this House, with all the attendant lights which are necessary for filming?

On the question of televising the House and the proceedings in Parliament, we have previously, as the House is aware, set up a Select Committee to consider this whole problem. That Committee has not yet reported. It will again be set up in this new Parliament to continue its duties. It must be borne in mind, as far as this particular colour film is concerned, that the application was made after Parliament was dissolved. Therefore, it was not possible to consult the House or you, Mr. Speaker, and the authorities of the House based their decision upon a decision taken by the Services Committee on the question of televising the proceedings in this Chamber on the occasion of the State opening.

As one who is in favour of the experiment of televising the proceedings of this House, may I ask the Leader of the House whether he can give us an assurance that there will be no further television of the proceedings in this House without a full debate of the House?

I have made it clear on a previous occasion that any decision to televise the proceedings of the House of Commons will be taken as a result of a free vote, I hope, of the House of Commons which is based upon a Report from the Select Committee. This was not such an occasion. This was an occasion of the State opening and, so far as the film was concerned, Parliament had in fact been dissolved. On the question of the televising of the proceedings in the House and the B.B.C. cameras in the Chamber, this decision was taken by the Services Committee as a recommendation to Mr. Speaker.

Can my right hon. Friend tell me whether any arrangements were made for the payment of fees to and the insurance of hon. Members who, without consultation, were cast in the rôles of extras and submitted to ordeal by arc lamp?

I understand that no fees at all were paid, but any cost involved by the Ministry of Public Building and Works has been recovered.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say why no fees were paid? Clearly the commercial company concerned must have obtained quite a considerable revenue and profit as a result of filming this ceremony. Surely it is wrong that this kind of thing should happen to the benefit of one particular company?

I am afraid I can accept no more responsibility. Neither the hon. Gentleman himself nor I were Members of Parliament at the time.

In his capacity as Chairman of the House of Commons (Services) Committee, would my hon. Friend instruct the authorities of the House on future occasions to consult him as its Chairman when interpreting the minutes of that Committee?

This would be generally desirable, but it was difficult to consult me when I was not a Member of Parliament and Parliament had, in fact, been dissolved.

Is the Lord President aware that, in addition to television cameras and movie cameras in the House for the colour film, there were also Press photographers taking still photographs of the House? Are we to assume that the introduction of television into the House automatically means the introduction also of Press photographers on each occasion?

This is a matter for the Select Committee on televising Parliament I hope that Committee will look at the whole question, because this is a very much wider question than one of simply one or two television cameras coming into the Chamber. I hope the Select Commit- tee will consider every possible aspect of this matter.

What right has anybody to take this decision without consulting Members of Parliament? Why should we be the guinea pigs in this kind of experiment, and why, in particular, was it decided to televise the most feudal part of our proceedings rather than any other part?

I obviously have not made this clear. The decision to bring B.B.C. television cameras into this Chamber on the occasion of the State opening was taken by Mr. Speaker on a recommendation to him by the Services Committee. Anything that happened subsequently—that is to say, the colour film or the still shots which were taken—occurred as a result of a decision taken by the House of Commons authorities who thought it was implicit in the decision taken by the Services Committee.

On a point of order. I do not understand the last explanation of the Leader of the House. He said the decision was taken by Mr. Speaker. I understood the House of Commons was in abeyance——

Order. There is no point of order arising from the merits of the answer. The hon. Member may not like the answer, but it is in order.

The hon. Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover) was not on a point of order. Therefore the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) must raise a point of order and not speak further to a point of order.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The right hon. Gentleman has just said that the decision was taken by you, Sir. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Yes, he did. My point of order to you, Sir, is: did you or did you not, while there were no Members of Parliament—that is, in the interregnum——

Order. The hon. Gentleman is not empowered to submit the Chair to a cross-examination at Question Time. If he is doubtful about the conduct of the Chair he has his remedy, a Parliamentary remedy.

With respect, Mr. Speaker, neither I nor, I think, my hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) is querying the authority of the Chair. We are implying that the Chair was, in fact, vacant at the time.

This is an important matter of merit and argument. It is not, however, a matter of order for the Chair at Question Time.

Will the Lord President clarify this point? Was the decision taken about B.B.C. television cameras before Parliament dissolved for the election?

Yes, Sir; the decision on B.B.C. cameras was taken, two days before Parliament was dissolved, by the House of Commons (Services) Committee, and the recommendation was made to Mr. Speaker.

Will not my right hon. Friend agree that, as the House was dissolved and as not even Mr. Speaker was a Member of Parliament at the time and had no authority either, one cannot blame Mr. Speaker? Was it not the Lord Great Chamberlain who was responsible?

That is not the correct position. When Her Majesty decided, some 16 or 17 months ago, to transfer the control of the House of Commons side of the Palace of Westminster to the House of Commons, that is, to Mr. Speaker, the Lord Great Chamberlain no longer had any responsibility in this side of the Palace.

The Lord President said that we were promised, as the House of Commons, that no proceedings would be televised without a free vote of the House. Am I not right in thinking that they were proceedings of the House of Commons when we were sitting here before the opening of the new Session in the Chamber of the House of Lords, and, therefore, has not that promise been broken?

The hon. Gentleman is, of course, correct; it is a part of the proceedings of Parliament, but it is not the sort of occasion which Members had in mind when they were thinking in terms of the proceedings of Parliament generally. While I am prepared to admit that it is, obviously, a part of the proceedings of Parliament, I should have thought that this would have been an example worth bearing in mind by the Select Committee on the televising of Parliament for its further deliberations.

If the Lord Great Chamberlain had no responsibility, will my right hon. Friend explain to the House how it came about that the Lord Great Chamberlain issued the tickets for the Press photographers to come into this House?

I should have to check that one. I am not absolutely clear that the Lord Great Chamberlain issues tickets for Members or visitors to enter this Chamber.

If the decision was taken by the Committee two days before the House rose, why was no announcement made in the House at that time so that hon. Members would know what was going on? Second, what does the right hon. Gentleman mean when he says that the House authorities took the quite separate decision to allow the film to be made simultaneously with the transmission on the B.B.C. service? Who were the House authorities, and to whom did they refer for their interpretation of the Committee's decision?

On the first point, I think I am right in saying that, either on the date of Dissolution or the day before—I shall have to check it—in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Sir G. de Freitas), it was announced to the House that the proceedings would be televised.

On the second point, it has to be appreciated that, while Mr. Speaker has certain responsibilities when Parliament is dissolved, those responsibilities are clearly laid down in Erskine May, and this is not one of them; so it was the House authorities—[HON. MEMBERS: "Who are They?"]—there are many, the Serjeant at Arms, the Clerk of the House and many other authorities. [HON. MEMBERS: "How did they decide it?"] I assume that they met together and reached this decision based upon what was decided about televising.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

Questions To Ministers

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I ask whether we can have an assurance from you that we shall take Questions at the admirable speed we did under your guidance in the last Parliament? I am somewhat disappointed that we have not reached Question No. 31 in about 50 minutes of Question Time.

This was difficult. If the hon. Gentleman thinks that his Question No. 31 was very important, he probably thought that Question No. 30, which he did ask, was very important also. It is for the Chair to let a Question run if the House obviously wants to probe an important issue, and this was done on this occasion. We shall return tomorrow to normal speed.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Would it be appropriate now to ask your guidance on a matter of procedure?

Let us take the Private Notice Question first, and then the hon. Gentleman may raise the point which he has in mind.

Copper (Price)

(by Private Notice) asked the President of the Board of Trade what action he is taking, in the light of the decision of the Zambian Government announced yesterday, to stabilise the price of copper in the United Kingdom.

The Zambian copper companies announced the day before yesterday that they would temporarily sell their production at the free market price for delivery three months ahead instead of at their earlier controlled price of £336 a ton. The Zambian Government sub- sequently announced the imposition of an export tax to be paid by the Zambian companies.

We have informed the Zambian Government and producers of our concern about price increases; and they are aware that it would be in their long-term interests to avoid increases which would encourage large-scale substitution of other materials for copper.

Today's three months' price on the London Metal Exchange fell to £548 a ton. A further fall would bring it close to the previous average price paid by the British fabricating industry for copper from all sources.

In view of the possible chain reaction in price rises, is there not a case, perhaps, for a temporary subsidy being considered?

I am not convinced that that is so. There are many experts in this industry who think that we may see a fall in prices from the present level over the months ahead.

Would the right hon. Gentleman care to comment on the suggestion which has been made that the result of what has just happened in Zambia will be to cost this country £40 million this year and probably about £70 million next year? Will he not agree that one consequence of the decisions taken in Zambia will be to increase the cost to consumers in this country of a wide variety of products—cars, television sets, and so on? This, obviously, is a serious matter, as he said.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it has been suggested that one reason for this has been that copper users have been stocking up in fear that the Zambian source of copper might dry up in the event of conflict between Zambia and Rhodesia? In view of the increased revenue—[HON. MEMBERS: "Too long."]—this is a very important matter—to Zambia as a result of this action taken by the Zambian Government, will the right hon. Gentleman consider asking Zambia to make a contribution to the cost of the air lift of oil which we are at present undertaking?

This is, of course, a serious matter for British industry, but, on the whole, I think that the prophecies which the right hon. Gentleman has made are somewhat exaggerated. Experience shows that, when producers push up prices to this level, substitution is encouraged, and, also, production and supplies are increased before very long.

Has the attention of the President of the Board of Trade been drawn to a statement that the reason for the shortage of copper has been the war in Vietnam? If so, will he consult the Foreign Secretary with a view to making representations to the American Government that they can do something in this respect?

That has been one contributory cause, but there have been others, including strikes in both Zambia and Chile.

Does not the President of the Board of Trade agree that this matter emphasises the danger of relying upon imported copper, and will he, therefore, investigate the possibility of seeking copper under the soil of Cornwall and other parts of the country?

The Board of Trade has been discussing with the British industries consuming copper the various ways of meeting a possibly high price and shortages of supplies for the whole of the past year. We shall certainly not ignore that possibility.

Private Members' Bills

The hon. Member for Eastbourne (Sir Charles Taylor) wishes to raise a point with me.

I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, for allowing me to raise this matter of procedure.

Under Standing Order No. 5(1), dealing with the Arrangement of Public Business, we read:
"Save as provided in this order, government business shall have precedence at every sitting."
But in Standing Order 5(4) we read:
"The ballot for private members' bills shall be held on the second Thursday on which the House shall sit during the session under arrangements to be made by Mr. Speaker, and the bills shall be presented at the commencement of public business on the fifth Wednesday on which the House shall sit during the session."
It has been customary in the past to place a notice in the Lobbies informing hon. Members that a Ballot is to take place on Private Members' Bills, and two days prior to the Ballot taking place a book is placed in the "No" Lobby so that hon. Members may participate in the Ballot when it takes place.

It may be that the House will decide otherwise on this occasion, but should the desires of the Government be thwarted on this occasion I submit that the customary procedure should continue and that the book should be placed in the "No" Lobby for hon. Members to write their names in it and that a notice should be displayed saying that there will be a Ballot for Private Members' Bills under the Standing Order.

Perhaps it would be wrong for me to express an opinion on this occasion, but I hope that the Government's intentions are thwarted and that private Members will retain that long-prized privilege.

I am grateful to the hon. Member, as I am to any hon. Member who raises issues which seek to preserve either the orders or the customs of the House. I was not aware of the point raised by the hon. Member until a few minutes ago, but I am now advised by the Clerk and I will deal with it.

It is certainly true that Standing Order No. 5 provides that the Ballot for Private Members' Bills shall be held on the second Thursday on which the House sits in session. On the two days preceding the day of the Ballot a list is, by practice, or custom, placed in the "No" Division Lobby and is available there until the rising of the House each day for Members to enter their names. The hon. Member for Eastbourne is perfectly right in saying this.

Today, however, I am told that the Government have handed in a notice of Motion inviting the House to take steps which may vary the operation of Standing Order No. 5. On that account, as it appeared to them that the House might decide to give other directions before the Ballot was held, the Officers of the House did not proceed with the usual anticipatory notices because to have done so might have proved in the event to have been in conflict with a direction of the House, and, therefore, to have been misleading to hon. Members.

The sole point of the notices in the past has been to assist hon. Members and in pursuance of that duty the Officers of the House have not posted any notices today. I am satisfied that they have acted correctly. The issue itself will have to be raised in some other way.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, for your Ruling. I am assuming that the Motion tabled by the Government may be defeated, in which case we shall not have very much opportunity to enter our names in the Ballot book unless the Ballot book is placed in the "No" Lobby tomorrow. I must apologise for not having given you more notice about this, but I was not aware until I came to the House this morning that the Government intended to alter this procedure.

If the hon. Member reads carefully the Ruling which I have just made, he will find that it accepts the basis of his argument but comes to a different conclusion about the detail of the posting of notices.

The other issue—whether the Government shall be thwarted or not—is a matter in which Mr. Speaker is not interested at all, but is a matter for the House.

Conference On Electoral Law

I wish to make a statement.

During the course of the last Parliament, the Conference on Electoral Law, over which I presided, reported its recommendations on certain matters relating to the registration of electors, the franchise, absent voting and candidates' election expenses. Many other matters which fall within the terms of reference announced by my predecessor on 12th May, 1965, have yet to be considered, and the Prime Minister has invited me to reconstitute the Conference on Electoral Law in order that this can be done.

I have readily agreed to this request, and I will acquaint the House as soon as possible of the names of those who have accepted my invitation to serve as members of that Conference.

Orders Of The Day

Debate On The Address Third Day

Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [ 21st April]:

That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, as follows:
Most Gracious Sovereign,
We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament.

Question again proposed.

Before I call upon anybody to speak in this debate, may I inform the House that 10 hon. Members have so far indicated to me that they would like to make their maiden speeches today. I am hoping that three or four of them may be able to catch my eye, but I must balance the debate as between older and newer Members.

If new hon. Members who have written in to me saying that they would like to make their maiden speech today would come to the Chair during the debate, I can break the news to them as to their success or lack of success in catching that elusive organ, the eye of Mr. Speaker, during the day.

Education And Technology

3.47 p.m.

The range of subjects to be covered in today's debate is a wide one—education and technology. I hope that it will be to the convenience of the House if I devote my speech this afternoon to an account of the measures which the Government are taking through the Ministry of Technology—in the words of the Gracious Speech:

"to increase the productivity and competitive power of British industry".
There are many aspects of technology which bear upon education. But it would be far too great a task for me to attempt to cover the whole range of the subjects of today's debate in a single speech. For this reason I propose to confine my remarks to technology and industry and their rôle in the Government's economic policy, while my right hon. Friend, who will be winding up the debate from this side of the House, will deal with education.

I will begin by describing our general approach to our responsibilities. What is our problem? First, some British industry has fallen behind our competitors abroad and this has been due to a number of reasons. One is that the structure of some of our industry is so fragmented and piecemeal that it is out of scale with the requirements of modern production and marketing. Second, there are shortages of industrial capacity due to inadequate investment. Third, there has been a serious lack in many of our industries of research and development.

These serious defects give special urgency to the need for an active policy of Government intervention to make good the failure of market processes to achieve the level of efficiency which is needed to reach our objective of domestic growth and export success. We are contending with the accumulated results of years of neglect of this vital problem.

But the House must realise that in this day and age even our most advanced industries will find difficulty in keeping abreast of their international rivals without Government intervention and assistance. Every advanced economy in the world owes much of its industrial progress and success since the war to its having found effective ways of marrying public power to private effort.

We need only look at the United States of America—the citadel of free enterprise. But this has not hindered an enormous outpouring of public money by the United States Government into private industry through defence programmes, space programmes, and through development contracts from which private industry benefits. Very great skill has been used to ensure that these public outlays, made primarily for public purposes, should be carried out in ways that enable private industry to reap great gains in efficiency. We can all think of examples, in aviation, electronics, atomic energy, machine tools, computers, and more. Other countries besides the United States have found their own ways of employing public services to speed the progress of manufacture and export. This afternoon I hope to describe our way, in this country.

We do not have the vast resources of the United States. We must apply our more limited means with all the skill we can. It must also be remembered that in our mixed economy we must rely greatly on persuasion and inducement to achieve our ends.

I would remind hon. Members opposite who criticise the work of the Ministry of Technology—and also those of my hon. Friends who would like to have seen faster progress—that our task is not to speed up a machine taken over from the last Conservative Administration. We have to build a new machine to undertake positive new tasks which were not carried out by the party opposite, either because it did not understand what was required, or because it has not yet shaken itself free from the encumbrance of a doctrinaire philosophy of the market which is irrelevant today.

What are the means at our disposal? What forms of public power can be used to stimulate, encourage and help productive industry to serve the nation best? When we came to office, some potential instruments were scattered and unorganised, some were under-used, and some did not exist. One of our first tasks was to draw the blueprint for a serviceable instrument of technological policy, fit the existing assets into it, and create others.

Sir Douglas Glover
(Ormskirk)