asked the Minister of Power what consideration is being given by Her Majesty's Government to the planning of pipelines and related equipment for the handling and distribution of North Sea gas.

asked the Minister of Power what consultations are being held with industry on the modifications of gas-using equipment which will be required for using North Sea gas.

I am giving very close attention to all the consequences of the discovery of gas in the North Sea. The scope and scale of these consequences will depend on the amounts discovered. The planning of pipelines and equipment for the handling, distribution and use of North Sea gas is in the first place for the gas industry and I am discussing it with them in the context of their capital development programmes.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the social needs of Norfolk and East Anglia in general for the industry which must flow as a result of these discoveries? Will he keep in close contact with the Regional Council?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Minister of Power what additional capital sums he proposes to allocate to the nationalised gas industry for piped distribution of North Sea gas during 1966-70; what compensating economy there will be on capital account in respect of imported liquid methane and associated underground storage, respectively; and whether he will make a statement.

May I first of all say how pleasant it is to see the hon. Gentleman's moustache again.

Until more is known about the availability of gas from the North Sea, it is not possible to estimate what investment will be required for its distribution. The only firm proposal at present is to construct a pipeline to transmit gas from the British Petroleum Company's wells from the coast to the existing methane grid at a cost of £5 million. No investment has been proposed in connection with additional imports of methane.

Does the right hon. Gentleman's reply mean that the capital allocation sums during the period between 1966 and 1970 for imported liquid methane will now remain unaltered?

The capital expenditure in regard to the importation of Algerian methane has been completed. It is not possible to make any capital predictions about North Sea gas in general until we have some idea of the quantities involved.

asked the Minister of Power when gas storage tanks will be available in the West Midlands area to house the gas shortly to be available from the North Sea project.

Storage tanks will not be required for this purpose.

asked the Minister of Power what is the estimated date for the supply of North Sea gas to Midlands industry.

asked the Minister of Power what is the earliest date on which gas from British Petroleum's North Sea concession is expected to be available to consumers; and what price per therm is to be paid by the Gas Council to British Petroleum.

The supply of 50 million cubic feet a day is planned to be available by about the middle of next year for use by the Midlands and other gas boards connected to the methane line. Smaller quantities may become available on shore before then. As the House was informed on 4th February, these supplies are being made available under an agreement for 15 years between the Gas Council and British Petroleum. The price of gas under this agreement will in general be for negotiation, but as a limited and temporary arrangement—and I should stress this—the price for an initial period of three years will be 5d. a therm for amounts up to an average of 100 million cubic feet a day.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that this price is rather exorbitant? Would he not further agree that British Petroleum would be able to recoup its investment within three years, and will he confirm that he will not allow Shell to strike that kind of financial bonanza?

This agreement was a limited and temporary arrangement suitable for the conditions at that particular time. It does not commit anybody to the same sort of agreement in the future.

By what percentage does the Minister think this will reduce the price to the domestic consumer in the Midlands?

It is impossible to give a figure till we have some idea of what there is in the North Sea, and this is a figure we have not yet got.

Are the supplies of North Sea gas expected to be of such a quantity as to require a revision of the figures in the fuel section of the National Plan?

Obviously, this whole question of North Sea gas will change our attitudes to many things. At present, however, no one knows the quantities which are available.

asked the Minister of Power when he expects the inquiry on the Sea Gem disaster to commence.

I cannot yet say, as preliminary investigations are not completed. I will see to it that there is no avoidable delay.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the urgency of this matter, the anxiety which arose over another break-up recently, and the number of other operations which are starting in the near future the construction of which must obviously be guided by the results of this inquiry?

I accept completely the importance of speed in this matter, but I think that hon. Members on both sides will agree that the fact that it should be a very comprehensive inquiry seems more important.

asked the Minister of Power what steps he has taken to implement the recommendation of the National Board for Prices and Incomes, in its Seventh Report, paragraph 84 (v), that the Government should require the gas and electricity industries to apply to new investment a minimum rate of return higher than the general target return expected from the whole of their capital employed.

I would refer the hon. Member to the statement made in the House on 10th March in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Normanton (Mr. Albert Roberts).

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that that did not take us very far? Does he not recognise that unless an adequate rate of return is demanded from these projects—and this is a matter essentially for the Government—it is bound to lead to an increase in prices? This was the burden of the Prices and Incomes Board Report on this aspect.

The nationalised industries already operate on the lines of the Board's recommendation.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it in order for right hon. and hon. Gentlemen to answer Questions by referring to answers which were given in this House in the last Parliament?

Yes, but the hon. Gentleman should raise a point of order about Questions at the end of Question Time.

Later—

On a point of order. You were kind enough to say, Mr. Speaker, that you would reply at the end of Questions to a point of order I raised during Questions. The point of order was whether it was in order for Ministers, in replying to questions of my hon. Friends, to make reference to replies made in previous Parliaments.

I replied very briefly to the hon. Gentleman. I told him that it was in order. I went on to say that I hoped that points of order would not be raised unnecessarily at Question Time. A Minister is in order in referring to questions or answers made in a previous Session.

asked the Minister of Power if he will seek power to enable him to insert in the licences which he grants to drill for oil or gas in the North Sea a provision that the relevant shore offices and berthings of apparatus be located in places in Scotland nominated by him.

No, Sir. The location of shore installations must plainly have regard to the area of operations.

Does the Minister not realise that it is completely wrong and anti-British to allow the beneficiaries of these licences to divert their wealth away from Scotland, which depends so much on the North Sea?

I am sure my hon. and learned Friend will agree that the most important consideration is to see that the Scottish consumer gets natural gas at the cheapest possible price. This is not helped by unnecessarily expensive distribution systems.

Would my hon. Friend remember that if he is to have a successful distribution of gas in Scotland he must have the utmost co-operation from local authorities in connection with wayleaves?

asked the Minister of Power if he is aware that effluvia from drillings for oil and gas in the North Sea under licence drive fish shoals away from the fishing grounds there and are sufficient to imperil the fish and the fishing grounds; and if he will take steps, by legislation or otherwise. to obviate that peril.

No, Sir. I have no evidence to suggest that drilling for oil and gas has any adverse effect on fish.

Would my hon. Friend say what scientific inquiries he has made on which to base that answer? Does he realise that fish are very sensitive creatures and can be driven away by oil and gas from their customary haunts?

A full investigation was carried out by the California Department of Fish and Game between 1958 and 1960 and it found that there was no deleterious effect on fish. The implication of my hon. and learned Friend's Question seems to be that oil is bad for English fish but might be good for Scottish fish.

asked the Minister of Power to what extent the price of gas provided to domestic consumers by the Scottish Gas Board differs from the average price charged by other boards; and by what percentage the Scottish charges to domestic consumers exceed the lowest figure charged by another board.

The average revenue per therm from domestic sales in Scotland in 1964-65, the latest year for which figures are available, was 29·70d. This compared with figures ranging from 22·59d. to 31·96d. per therm in other areas, and a national average of 26·36d. a therm. Since then there have been tariff changes in Scotland and some other areas, and it is not possible to provide up-to-date comparisons.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that there has just been a 13 per cent. increase in the Scottish prices? Is he suggesting that these price increases were approved and applied before he made comparisons between Scotland and other areas? Has not the differential now become so serious that consideration should be given to making an equal charge in different parts of the country? Does the Minister say that he has not got the figures applying to the 13 per cent?

The rationalisation of tariffs is an entirely different subject, and a big subject. As to the figures at the latest date available, I have given them to the hon. Gentleman. They are in the Answer. As to the 13 per cent. increase in prices, one cannot give an answer until one has been able to establish to what extent the price change alters the pattern of consumption.

asked the Minister of Power whether the proposed terms of compensation for the acquisition of steel shares, set out in the White Paper of April 1965, still represent Government policy.

I cannot anticipate the publication of the Bill.

Would it not be in the public interest to end the uncertainty which many thousands of investors are in about the value of their shareholdings, which has turned this most vital of our industries into a speculator's paradise?

It is important to end all the uncertainty hovering over this industry, and the Government will do so in this Session. The particular issue raised by the hon. Gentleman is one which, obviously, will be covered by part of the Bill, and it must await publication of the Bill.

While accepting the method of assessing compensation set out in the White Paper, will my right hon. Friend consider the possibility of bringing the five-year period up to date to read 1961-66, and will he take note of the implications of such a change?

In the situation now, we have to take notice of the changed circumstances, if such exist, since the last debate we had in the House. Obviously, one of the things which will be considered, among many others, is the whole pattern of the terms of compensation, together with the rest of the Bill, though within the context, presumably, of the White Paper.

May I take this first opportunity to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on attaining his high office? Does he agree with the White Paper which described the compensation terms there set out as the fairest basis of valuation?

The terms of the White Paper were accepted at that time, and have been accepted since, as the Government's attitude to this issue. A period of time has elapsed since, and, if for no reason other than that I come fresh to this office, one is re-examining the Bill within the context of the White Paper.

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the attainment of his office and on the consideration he is giving to this subject. Will he consider, also, the proposition that it might be a good idea, as happened in the case of many other previous nationalisation Measures, if the compensation was not fixed at the beginning but was fixed after discussion about it in the House of Commons?

Without wishing to be too repetitive, I think my hon. Friend will agree that we must all await publication of the Bill.

When will the Bill be published?

If the hon. Gentleman cares to put down a Question, I shall willingly answer.

asked the Minister of Power when he proposes to introduce a Bill for the public ownership of the steel industry.

asked the Minister of Power when he expects to introduce a Bill to restore public ownership and control of the main part of the steel industry.

I would refer by hon. Friends to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 21st April.

Before introducing the Bill, will my right hon. Friend give a firm commitment to look once again into the question of the compensation, which many of us on this side feel to be over-generous, and will he give an undertaking also to look into the question of a real injection of industrial democracy into the reorganisation of the industry?

Yes, Sir.

Can my right hon. Friend assure us that, when the Bill is introduced, it will cover all the assets of the firm of Stewarts and Lloyds in Corby, Northamptonshire?

Again, it is not possible to anticipate the Bill. I would be rather surprised if the particular firm was not included in the proposals.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider, in the national interest, deferring the introduction of the Bill, which can only hinder our economic recovery and bring gloom to our overseas creditors?

asked the Minister of Power if he is aware that gas consumers are required to pay twice for gas consumed when a prepayment meter has been robbed; and if he will prepare legislation to relieve consumers of this obligation.

The present situation is of long standing. Area gas boards consider the circumstances in each case, sometimes in consultation with the police, and I am not satisfied that a change in the law is justified.

Could the hon. Gentleman suggest to gas boards that they might include in the standing charge a very small sum which would constitute universal insurance against this for all users so that people who have their meters robbed are not suddenly saddled with an enormous extra bill?

This is a matter for the area boards, but it is a difficult one. Each year about 100,000 meters are broken open, involving losses of about £350,000. One would not want to encourage people to regard their gas meters as a sort of "piggy bank".

May I, on behalf of my right hon. and hon. Friends, take this opportunity to congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his appointment? As the consumer is penalised in this way, through no fault of his own, will the hon. Gentleman look again into this whole question of meters which are robbed?

As I have said, I think that a useful purpose is served if the matter is raised with area consultative committees. I know that in the case of the Northern Gas Board, for example, a satisfactory arrangement was reached.

asked the Minister of Power whether, in order to maintain the prosperity of the Scottish economy, he will give a direction to the Gas Council to extend the methane gas pipeline to Scotland.

My right hon. Friend is very anxious to ensure that Scotland gains full benefit from discoveries of gas in the North Sea. It is too early to say whether this can most economically be secured by extending the methane pipeline or by other means.

When do the experts hope to be able to give a verdict on this?

Plainly, not before we know how much gas there is and where it is.